The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following Members of the Portfolio Committee on Women Affairs, Community and Small to Medium Enterprises Development and staff from the Parliament of Zimbabwe:

Hon. Chido Madiwa, MP                    -           Chairperson and Leader

of the Delegation

Hon. Brian Dube, MP                         -           Member

Hon. Christopher Chingosho, MP        -           Member

Hon. Lindiwe Maphosa, MP                -           Member

Hon. Elizabeth Shongedza, MP          -           Member

Mr Marin Mugova                              -           Senior Researcher

Mr Lovemore Majoni                          -           Committee Clerk.

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The next item is the now most popular item on our agenda, Matters of Urgent Public Importance.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker: Like I did yesterday, I will deal with each matter of urgent public importance as it is raised, so that we do not miss out on anything. We start with the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

MR KAMPYONGO, HON. MEMBER FOR SHIWANG’ANDU, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, THE HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING AND ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON EXPENDITURE OF K65 MILLION THAT WAS FORFEITED TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SPENT BY A MINISTRY WITHOUT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): I am most obliged, Madam Speaker. The matter of urgent public importance I am trying to raise is a constitutional one, and is directed at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. As I stated, the matter I am trying to raise is a constitutional one and, with your indulgence, will make reference to the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, Article 201 of the Constitution – Withdrawal of monies from the Consolidated Fund, states:

“Monies shall not be withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund except –

1. to meet expenditure charged on the Consolidated Fund by this Constitution or as prescribed; or
2. where the issuance of these monies has been authorised by a warrant signed by the President, an Appropriation Act or a Supplementary Appropriation Act in accordance with Article 203.”

Further, Madam Speaker, Article 203(4), (5), (6) and (7) states:

“(4)      Where there is an urgent need to incur expenditure for a purpose that has not been appropriated under the Appropriation Act for that financial year and it would not be in the public interest to delay the appropriation of the expenditure until a supplementary estimate is approved by the National Assembly, in accordance with clauses 2 and 3, the President may, subject to Article 204, issue a warrant authorising the expenditure and withdrawal from the Consolidated Fund.

(5)        The Minister responsible for finance shall present the warrant referred to in clause (4) to the relevant parliamentary committee for approval.

(6)        The parliamentary committee shall consider the warrant within forty-eight hours of its presentation by the Minister responsible for finance.

(7)        Where expenditure is incurred in accordance with clause (4), the Minister responsible for finance shall, in that financial year, lay an Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill before the National Assembly for enactment.”

Madam Speaker, as you have clearly heard, there is no money that should be spent by any spending agency without it being appropriated by this institution. There has been a debate, of late, of some money, to the tune of K65 million, having been spent by a ministry without this procedure being followed.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to sit there quietly, and looking at me, without coming to this august House and explaining, through this august House, to the nation, how that money, which became part of the Consolidated Fund under Control 99, was spent?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, this matter of the K65 million was raised yesterday, and I stated that both the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Education had made statements, and so did the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). However, from my assessment, the matter has not been settled. It is doing rounds in the newspapers and radios, and everybody is talking about it on social media.

I am compelled to say that the Government needs to explain or give its side of the story, so that the people of Zambia, through this august House, are also informed about this matter. I believe, even if the matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance, that I am compelled to give an opportunity to the Government to explain what exactly happened. If there are any documents to be laid on the Table, let that be done, so that we can put this matter to rest.

So, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, kindly come back to the House on Tuesday, next week, with a ministerial statement to explain, exactly, what happened.

Thank you very much.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, ACTING HON. LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON LETTING THE AMERICAN EMBASSY RAISE LGBTQ FLAGS

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance under Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker: You may procced.

Hon. Members, as you raise matters of urgent public importance, you already know the Standing Orders, there is no need for you to mention and then sit back. We are just wasting time. So, please, go straight and raise your matter of urgent public importance. Remember not to debate and, please, do not shout into the microphones.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you may proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, last month, a youth in Mapoloto, in Kabwata Constituency, was set ablaze and killed by suspected homosexuals.

Madam Speaker, last month, as members of the Committee on ...., we were in Uganda and, whilst there, saw some flags at the American Embassy being raised, the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queer (LGBTQ) flags.

Madam Speaker, last week, on 1^st June, the American Embassy, again, at the embassy, raised the rainbow flag for the LGBTQ.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, we read in a newspaper that a police officer is on the run. He is on the run because he is accused of raping a male suspect in the cells.

Madam Speaker, between January and March, here in the House, Her Honour the Vice-President was very firm and categorical that the New Dawn Government will never allow LGBTQ rights in this country. However, the American Embassy is busy promoting that through salon operators. Salon operators now are changing themselves and calling themselves women when they are men. That has now gone from the business sector into the Civil Service. We saw an officer rape a suspect in the cells where even your hon. Members sometimes find themselves.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke Central!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, as you raise your matters of urgent public importance, be factual. I do not believe you saw the officer rape another person. Were you there? Be factual, please.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I thank you. According to the Standing Orders, I will be very unprofessional if I answer you. It will be like I am debating. You are a Presiding Officer, so –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, if you are going to proceed in that manner, I will curtail your debate, definitely. Just ask. What is your matter of urgent public importance? I advised that you should not debate. Please, do not debate. What is your matter of urgent public importance?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I thank you. In conclusion, is the hon. Leader of Government Business in the House in order to let America do this when our cultural values, Christian values and our Constitution do not allow the raising of LGBTQ flags in Zambia? We are allowing them and these other people. Even my children now are scared because now, with the way the LGBTQ people have entered the Civil Service, even children in schools will be victims.

So, I seek your indulgence and guidance, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, I know this issue is very important. People have been talking about it, but as you rightly pointed out, the hon. Leader of Government Business in the House came out with a statement here that the Government does not support the LGBTQ rights.

So, as for those flags which were being flown, you did not state that they were being flown in Zambia. You also said that you saw somebody being raped. I do not know whether you have any evidence to show that you were there when this person was being raped. Why did you not report the matter to the police because that is a criminal act?

In short, hon. Member for Petauke Central, that matter you have raised, even if you have raised it with a lot of emphasis and passion, it still does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. However, the door is not closed; you can explore other ways and means to bring the matter up so that it can be debated on the Floor of the House.

We make progress.

The hon. Member for Mpika may raise his matter.

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON WHY ONLY THREE PROVINCES ARE CONDUCTING MOBILE NRC EXERCISE

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me to raise a matter of urgent public importance in accordance with Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker, our country is a unitary State, with ten provinces, and whose citizens are entitled to have a National Registration Card (NRC). Since last year, the Government has been carrying out a mobile NRC exercise in three provinces only. The Zambian people, in other provinces, are concerned that they have been left out, looking at the importance of this document, in accordance with the National Registration Act.

Madam Speaker, I direct this matter of urgent public importance at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I seek guidance on why other provinces are not having the mobile NRC exercise, which is happening in the Southern Province, the North-Western and the Western Province.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Mr Kambita: On a point order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There is a point of order from the Hon. Member for Zambezi East.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me an opportunity to raise this point of order, pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, relevance of speech and how we conduct business in this House.

Madam Speaker, I have observed a very dangerous trend where, hon. Members have found this avenue, provided for by our Standing Orders, of course, for airing out matters of urgent public importance, and it is well-defined in the Standing Orders which ones qualify – Here we are, a matter to do with National Registration Cards (NRCs), which could be –

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: I am simply driving my point because time has been lost.

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: At the end of the day –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we have order!

Mr Kambita: At the end of the day, hon. Members are using this avenue to debate and push their agenda, so that they are heard that they are talking about something, even when they know that Madam Speaker is not goinG to allow those matters to qualify under that provision.

Madam Speaker, is this House in order to let this kind of running riot and coming up with anything and sundry and pushing it under the guise of matters of urgent public importance?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling, so that we curtail this, seemingly, anarchy which is going on in this House.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members can we have some order.

Indeed, as regards this issue of matters of urgent public importance, I think this segment is being abused by hon. Members. The criteria are already stated in both Standing Order 134 and 135. There have been a number of rulings, giving guidance to hon. Members, on what matters qualify to be raised as matters of urgent public importance. However, I have seen a trend where hon. Members stand and talk about any issue without any regard to the criteria for a matter to be admitted. In the process, hon. Members are bringing in matters which members of the public are listening to, but because they do not qualify to be admitted, they remain hanging without the necessary response being provided.

Hon. Members, let us be serious. When we are raising matters of urgent public importance, let us make sure that they conform to the criteria. If a matter does not qualify and, you, as an hon. Member, are aware that it does not, please, use other means; ask a question under Standing Order 74 and 76, and the answer will be provided, adequately. For example, hon. Member for Mpika, even the manner in which you asked was promoting regionalism because you were talking about three provinces –

Mr Kapyanga: How?

Madam Speaker: Order!

You were talking about three provinces and that other provinces are not being attended to. If you want, you can puting in a question so that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security –

Mr Kapyanga: It is true.

Madam Speaker: Order!

You will be sent out.

You really want to start on a bad note. If you bring up a matter, I am entitled to make a ruling and give you guidance. If you do not want to listen to the guidance, then there is no need to bring up a matter. So, you listen to the ruling. If you are not interested, then you can go and spend some good time outside.

The manner in which hon. Members ask questions should not promote division in the House or in the country. Let us build a country for all of us, as Zambians. If there are National Registration Cards (NRCs) being issued, they should be issued to all Zambians. When you bring up a question here, and say that one region is being favoured over another, that is promoting regionalism. We are trying to get away from that. Zambia is one country. If you do not agree, then you are the one who is promoting regionalism.

Hon. Member for Chitambo, are you the one promoting regionalism? Let us be serious. Hon. Member for Mpika, your matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.

Let us make progress.

MR MUNIR ZULU, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUMEZI, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON ARRESTS OF MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Thank you, very kind Madam Speaker, for permitting the good people of Lumezi to rise on a serious matter of urgent public importance. Let me take advantage of your guidance and how you have counselled the hon. Member for Mpika. You have given your hon. Members in this House a diplomatic status, so that when they visit neighbouring countries, they are given the much needed respect because they are hon. Members.

Madam Speaker, it is neither by mistake nor design, but as a matter of fact that I am stating, and I am ready to pay a heavy price for speaking and stating facts on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, we have had a conversation starting from yesterday that K65 million went missing. We have not seen the Zambia Police (ZP) drive to arrest people cited in that report. As I was growing up –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I do not know whether you are still raising the same issue of the K65 million. If so, raise your matter of urgent public importance. Do not go all over. Let me just comment on the issue of respect. Respect is earned. We, as hon. Members of Parliament, should earn that respect so that the House can be respected. If we do not respect our selves, even members of the public will not respect us.

You may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I could be a slow speaker in my deliveries, but permit me to deliver a serious message. In everything I do is uberrimae fidei, utmost good faith.

Madam Speaker, when I was growing up, my father –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, that, is why I said that you should just get to the point. Do not start debating what you are, what you do and how you were brought up. I think this is not the segment for that. Can you get to the point. We are ready to listen to you.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, we always treasure your guidance. The Zambia Police has deliberately developed a habit of parking vehicles outside parliamentary grounds to abduct hon. Members, without sending out callouts, especially hon. Members on your left. If this habit is not attended to, hon. Members on your right will happen to be on your left some day, and they will be abducted.

Madam Speaker, is it that the Americans are giving the Executive ideas to silence the voices of the Opposition hon. Members of Parliament or it is the British? The story we are getting is: I was abducted, and there was no callout; Hon. Shakafuswa was abducted, and no call out was issued; Hon. Amb. Kalimi was abducted, and there was no call out. We are told that the Americans are saying that to silence the voices on your left, the police should be abducting them without callouts and without involving your office.

Madam Speaker, we are known people of permanent abode. We are not criminals. Let me take advantage and say, if they come to your office, you will engage us to say, “You are needed by the police” but they have not been doing that. We are being abducted like common criminals. We need clarity on this particular matter so that our views are not suppressed in this House because of foreign interests. This has to come to an end.

I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, you started very well, but meandered. It is better to be precise and concise, so that your point can be taken, and even the hon. Minister who is going to answer can to respond to your questions. I am not aware of these arrests and abductions. The hon. Minister is here; maybe, he can shed some light.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond to the purported serious issues that have been raised by the hon. Member for Lumezi.

Madam Speaker, the privileges of hon. Members of Parliament are prescribed, and only require the Speaker’s knowledge and information when the arrest is being effected on Parliamentary grounds. If you are an hon. Member of Parliament and are outside Parliamentary precincts, the Zambia Police Service or any security wing, relying on the information they have, that a criminal offence has been committed, have the right to arrest you who has committed an offence in this country. It is a matter of law that there is no one, I repeat, there is no one who is about the law in this country, unless one has immunity.

Hon. Member of Parliament, Madam Speaker, do not have immunity pertaining to criminal proceedings. Let me also state that there is no hon. Member of Parliament who has been abducted in this country. Hon. Members of Parliament have been arrested based on allegations that have been made and for all those hon. Members of Parliament who were arrested, the charges were read to them. I stand to be corrected.

Mr Munir Zulu: I was abducted.

Mr Shakafuswa: I was not even charged, but arrested

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I have no doubt in my mind that I am on very firm ground that for all those hon. Members of Parliament who were arrested, the grounds were framed and read to them, and a number of them are appearing in court. So, we should not use this forum to mislead the public when there are criminal charges that have been laid against us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, the fact that the hon. Minister has made a comment, I thought, on behalf of your hon. Members on the left, I could also add a comment.

Madam Speaker, I think the question that the hon. Member raises, is the manner in which hon. Members of Parliament are arrested. Nobody is saying that hon. Members of Parliament are above the law. The hon. Member of Parliament referred to the fact that your hon. Members of Parliament have diplomatic passports. That is to give them the dignity that they deserve. Now, if at all they have committed an offence, what is wrong with just sending out callouts to them?

Madam Speaker, the abductions that happened to hon. Members, as referred to by the hon. Member for Lumezi, indeed, happened. I was at the police to go and secure bonds for them.

Madam Speaker, we have been attending committees and going round doing Parliamentary work. Why it is important to even notify the Office of the Chief Whip or other Whips is that hon. Members of Parliament are sometimes doing Parliamentary work. So, the point to drive home to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is that these hon. Members of Parliament are not criminals. They need to be respected. If at all they should appear at the police, they should be given dignity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, why should we be only respected when we are in Uganda, Kenya, Morocco and everywhere else and you want to treat hon. Members of Parliament as criminals, even before they are convicted?

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, it is about the respect of hon. Members of Parliament. I think this point must be driven very clearly. It does not matter what defence the hon. Minister wants to give. If hon. Members of Parliament are required by the police, let them be given respect and callouts. We stand very strongly on this point. We will not sit idle and watch our hon. Members being harassed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order before the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security comes in.

Rev. Katuta: You are not elected!

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, …

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, we seek your guidance. The hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House, when he stood up to talk, was addressing the House. In what capacity was the Leader of the Opposition addressing the House instead of asking a question?

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Was he in order, therefore, Madam Speaker, to start addressing this House when he is not an hon. Minister? The only people who address this House are hon. Ministers, when they are asked questions.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: In what capacity was he addressing the House?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are guided by Standing Order No. 136 – Debate on Matter of Public Urgent Importance.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can we listen, please! Hon. Member for Nkana, can we listen. I am trying to deliver a ruling.

Mr B. Mpundu: I am consulting, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Yes, but you were too loud. I could hear you from here.

So, in responding to the point of order that has been raised by Hon. Mufalali, I refer to Standing Order 136:

         “Debate on Matter of Urgent Public Importance

 

1. Where the presiding officer directs that debate on the matter of urgent public importance must take place on a specified date,- “

That is not material.

Okay, our Standing Orders say that where an hon. Minister is asked to provide an answer, hon. Members have the right to ask follow-up questions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, it is in that capacity that the hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House was standing to respond.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, maybe, it is the manner in which he was debating. He was supposed to –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

He was supposed to have asked a question. So, maybe, we are learning from that, that when a matter has been raised and the hon. Minister is asked to respond, hon. Members can ask follow-up questions. So, that is where we are right now.

The hon. Minister is now at liberty to respond to what the hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House said.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, for ease of knowledge, I would like to advise and acquaint my colleague, the hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House, that a diplomatic passport does not grant immunity to hon. Members of Parliament, as he has said. It does not.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The diplomatic passport enables hon. Members to enjoy privileges when they are travelling outside the country and not here.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They do not carry a diplomatic passport in Zambia. It has no use to them.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: It does not confer any status on them, whatsoever.

Madam Speaker, let me state, once again, that Section 26 of the Criminal Procedure Code, which I tend to think my colleague, who is also a learned lawyer, is well versed with, gives the police the power to arrest anybody …

Rev. Katuta: Without a callout?

Mr Mwiimbu: … where there is a suspicion that a criminal offence has been committed by that individual. That is what the law says.

Further, Madam Speaker, most of my colleagues were issued with warrants – not warrants, but callouts and were ignoring.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: When one ignores a police call out, they will arrest that one.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: I was not issued with a call out. What are you saying?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mandevu, please, leave the House.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Just tell the truth. I was not issued with a call out.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mandevu, please, leave the House.

Mr Shakafuswa left the Chamber.

Mr Shakafuswa: This is our country!

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Madam Speaker rose

Mr E. Tembo left his seat.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Feira, are you joining the hon. Member for Mandevu or you are going for something else?

Mr E. Tembo indicated dissent.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Please, can you return to your seat.

Mr E. Tembo resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we have some order in the House. If we continue at this rate, I will be forced to move to the next item on the order paper because we want to have order.

Hon. Members, remember what I said earlier on, that the respect that we demand, we have to earn it. The way we carry on here, if we are going to reduce on the decorum and dignity of the House, we should not expect other people to crown us with it. Please, let us behave ourselves and give due respect to the House and conduct our Business as serious people who deserve to be called honourable Members. Can we have some order.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I noted that before I could even complete my statement, there was uproar on the other side. I said some of the hon. Members were issued with callouts.

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes.

Interjections

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we are all aware that the previous Government arrested a number of hon. Members of Parliament here; Hon. Mubika was arrested without a warrant; Hon. Muchima; Hon. Kangombe; and Hon. Nkombo were arrested. We never raised issues that the police had no power because we are knowledgeable. We have gone to school. We know what is obtaining in the laws of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we know what the Police are supposed to be doing, unlike what used to happen in the past where they were being given instructions to arrest certain individuals. We are not doing that. If the Police think that someone has committed an offence, they move in and arrest that individual. That is what we are doing. We respect the professionalism of the Zambia Police Service, and that is what we are doing. If somebody wants to say that we are the ones who are doing it because they were doing it, we are not doing it.

Rev. Katuta: You are the same.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is the problem. It is why some people are losing. In Chienge, she has lost the confidence of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I think I need to give guidance on this matter of arrest and how hon. Members of Parliament can be arrested. I will reserve my ruling so that I give guidance on what can be done and what cannot be done in accordance with what the law provides so that we can go over this issue, and hon. Members are guided, accordingly. So, let us leave this item and go to the next matter of urgent public importance.

Mr Chala: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I see there is a point of order. There have been several points of order.

Hon. Member for Chipili, what is the point of order? Is it on the same matter or something else?

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, actually, it is on the same matter. I wanted to correct the hon. Minister, so that he does not refer to ... because the ball is in his own hands.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, it is okay. If that is what you wanted to say, there will be a ruling on that matter.

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, I had actually raised this point of order contemporaneous to the occurrence of the statement that was rendered on the Floor of this House by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi, Hon. Munir Zulu, whom I felt meant startling and hair-raising claims that he did not have occasion, in accordance with the traditions of this House, to substantiate so that it could stand on the Hansard of this House as a transaction of the day, today.

Madam Speaker, he has told this House that hon. Members of the Opposition are being arrested at the behest or instruction of the Americans, something that borders on diplomatic etiquette, which this House stays away from.

Madam Speaker, is he in order, therefore, to mislead the House, himself and the nation that the Executive of the Government of the Republic of Zambia has been told that the only way to silence the Opposition is to arrest Opposition hon. Members of Parliament, without providing any proof that such an instruction has been given by the American Government to the Government of the Republic of Zambia?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Actually, I had guided the hon. Member for Lumezi that whatever statement he makes should be substantiated. Since he has not substantiated his allegations that the Government is working with American and British governments to silence the Opposition, I require or direct the hon. Member for Lumezi to withdraw that statement. He has no evidence to support what he said.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, you may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, by your guidance, I withdraw.

Madam Speaker: Now, we can make some progress. We are going on to the next matter of urgent public importance.

MR FUBE, HON. MEMBER FOR CHILUBI, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, THE ACTING HON. LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON ISSUES BORDERING ON RELIGIOUS CONFLICT

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi the opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance in accordance with Standing Order No. 35, read together with 134.

Madam Speaker, in 1991, Zambia chose to revert to a multi party system through the amendment of Article 4 of the Constitution then.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just raise your matter of urgent public importance, do not debate.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the factors that I wanted to qualify are attached to what I am saying.

Alright, since that is a known factor, can you allow me to quote the Constitution in Article 3 because the matter I am raising is linked to it?

Madam Speaker: The procedure is that you do not debate. Just raise your matter of urgent public importance, precisely. Do not debate.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I will quote the law as I speak.

Madam Speaker, of late, we have seen alarming issues bordering on religious conflict. Religious conflict has caused problems in other countries, to some level, civic strife.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you are debating. What is your matter of urgent public importance?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is linked to Article 19 of the Constitution, specifically the Bill of Rights which says that except with his own consent, no person shall be hindered in the enjoyment of his freedom of conscience. For the purposes of this article, the said freedom includes freedom of thought, religion, to change his religion or belief.

Madam Speaker, this also includes, to propagate the belief and religion ...

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are debating. I have guided, please, raise your matter of urgent public importance. What is the matter of urgent public importance?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance is that a Catholic Bishop was called “Lucifer” by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, which is the ruling party. That word “Lucifer” has serious negative connotations.

Ninety-five per cent of Zambians are Christians, and the Constitution –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are debating.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I find it a problem that I cannot raise my matter without putting flesh to it because a matter of urgent public importance has to qualify under Standing Order No. 135. So, for it to qualify, administratively, or show that it can cause conflict and other things in the nation, I need to put material to it.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you have been guided. Please, raise your matter of urgent public importance.

Mr Fube’s microphone went off.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Resume your seat.

Hon. Member for Chilubi, please, get straight to raising your matter of urgent public importance. Do not debate. When you debate, you open up issues and if I do not admit your matter, we will leave out issues, which will not be responded to. That is why I am guiding you. Just raise you matter of urgent public importance, and if it is –.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, please! I cannot –

Hon. Member for Chilubi, if you get into the gist of the matter, you will raise issues which will not be responded to, in the event that I do not admit it. That way, we will leave issues hanging. That is why you are not supposed to debate. Nobody is going to respond to the issue you are raising in your debate. Just raise your matter of urgent public importance. If there will be need, then it will be debated and responded to. That is why guidance has been given. Please, follow the advice.

Proceed and be precise in raising your matter of urgent public importance.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed at the Leader of Government Business who, by change in different things, also takes care of national values, which are in Article 8 of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, a Catholic Bishop was called “Lucifer” by the Secretary-General (SG) of the ruling party, the United Party for National (UPND). The reference to a Catholic Bishop, who has a following – when we look at the –

Mr Munsanje: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order in line with Standing Order No. 65.

Madam, the hon. Member debating, accusing the United Party for National Development (UPND) Secretary General (SG) has not laid any factual document on the Table.

Rev. Katuta: Awe naiwe, fyali mu newspaper!

Mr Munsanje: There is no factual document laid on the Table.

Mr Fube interjected.

Mr Munsanje: Therefore, he cannot talk about something from hearsay. He is speculating and misleading himself.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as you raise your matters of urgent public importance, please, be precise and bring matters that are ascertainable and supported by evidence. If you have to lay a document on the Table, let it be done. Do not just raise allegations which cannot be supported.

Hon. Member for Chilubi, please, be guided, accordingly.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I find it a very big problem that matters of this magnitude which border on national conflict, possibly, can be taken this lightly by this House. What I am talking about, not single person here has not heard. It is in the public domain.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chilubi, please, resume your seat.

I have guided, this is not the time to debate. You are debating, responding and doing all that. Your opportunity is to raise a matter of urgent public importance. If you cannot raise it, maybe, we give the opportunity to another person to raise another matter.

Mr Fube interjected.

Madam Speaker: Raise your matter.

Mr Munsanje interjected

Madam Speaker: Can we have order!

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, maybe, you can take on a different person.

 

Mr Munsanje interjected

Madam Speaker: Can we have order!

Hon. Member for Mbabala, please, can you restrain yourself. Otherwise, you will be sent out.

Rev. Katuta: Send him out!

Madam Speaker: You will be escorted by the hon. Member for Chienge because she has been speaking whilst seated.

Let us make progress. We have already spent almost one hour on this item, and we are not even making progress. I request hon. Members to be prepared when coming to raise their matters of urgent public importance. We have not made any progress on this matter today. So, under the circumstances, I am curtailing this debate. Those who have matters of urgent public importance can rethink through them, then come and raise substantive matters tomorrow.

Can we make progress.

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, I had sent a note to withdraw. I did not come prepared for it today.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I have not received that notice.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu wants to raise a point of order. What is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, mine is a very serious procedural point of order. The communication process between the Executive and your office is very clear and well established. The hon. Minister of Agriculture was scheduled to give a ministerial statement, and your Committee, the House Business Committee, to which I belong, scheduled the Business of the House. Is the hon. Minister in order to come with impunity and say he is not ready to render the ministerial statement?

Madam Speaker: Order!

The use of the word, “impunity”,–

Mr Kampyongo: I withdraw it, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Kampyongo: Is the hon. Minister in order to come with “disrespect” to your office and the whole institution to say he is not ready to render a ministerial statement without giving prior notice? Notice cannot be given on the Floor. That notice should have been given before the commencement of the Business of the House.

I need your serious ruling on this matter. If our colleagues are not ready to continue managing the affairs of the State, they must state so. We are taking this House for granted.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Now, we are overstretching the issue. Let us stick to the ministerial statement that is supposed to be rendered.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister of Agriculture, according to item number five on our Order Paper, you are supposed to deliver a ministerial statement. This notice was given to me. I read the statement and approved. That is why it is on the Order Paper.

The notice of withdrawal has not been received. So, please, hon. Minister, can we have the ministerial statement.

CROP FORECAST RESULTS FOR 2022/2023 AGRICULTURAL SEASON AND THE 2023/2024 CROP MARKETING ARRANGEMENT

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to update this august House and the nation at large on the 2022/2023 Crop Forecast Results and the Crop Marketing Arrangements for the 2023/2024 Marketing Season. The announcement of the Crop Forecast Survey results gives us a clear picture of the national food security situation as we commence the 2023/2024 Crop-Marketing Season.

Madam Speaker, allow me to pay tribute to Zambian farmers, who have risen above challenges and ensured that the nation’s food basket is secured. Let me also pay tribute to the other value chain actors; seed companies, suppliers of inputs and agricultural equipment, grain traders, millers and financial institutions for their continued role in facilitating the production of food in this country.

Madam Speaker, from the onset, I wish to state that the statistics that I am about to give are produced through a universally accepted scientific methodology that has been used by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Zambia Statistics Agency (ZAMSTAT) over a long period of time.

The nation is, hereby, informed that the statistics generated through this survey are of a high quality, objectively collected and comparable to the statistics of other nations that have adopted the same survey methodology being used by Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I am delighted that the 2022/2023 Crop Forecast Survey results have revealed that the production for most crops is expected to increase, with only a few recording a decrease in production when compared to the 2021/2022 figures generated through the Post-Harvest Survey. I am also happy that the area planted for crops such as maize, soya beans and mixed beans has recorded an increase in the 2022/2023 Agricultural Season. It is worth noting that the number of small and medium scale farming households that planted various crops increased when compared to the previous season. The number of small and medium scale farming households has increased to K2,534,311 from K1,756,340, recorded in the 2021/2022 Agricultural Season.

Madam Speaker, further, we have noted that some crops, including maize, have registered an increase in yields when compared to statistics in the 2021/2022 Season. The increase in yields is encouraging, but also indicates that more must be done to increase the efficiency of our farmers and the return on their investment.

Madam Speaker, regrettably, we note that climate change and its negative impact is among the significant challenges affecting food production and livelihoods of the majority of Zambians. Similar to events in previous seasons, the country experienced the late onset of rainfall, floods, dry spells and crop diseases which mostly affected the major crop producing provinces of the Southern Province, the Eastern and the Central provinces.

Madam Speaker, the results of the Crop Forecast Survey have revealed that a total of 91,981 ha of land under crop production was destroyed by heavy rains and flash floods. In addition, it has been established by the survey results that a total of 219,610 ha of land under crop production was damaged by the dry spell. The 2022/2023 Season was also characterised by the outbreak of fall army worms and stalk borers that were reported to have damaged about 8,021 ha of cropped land. In some parts of Zambia, the cassava brown streak disease was reported to have affected many fields. In total, the damage caused by flash floods, dry spells and pests stands at 319,611 ha.

Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the challenges of climate change and other negative impacts affecting production and productivity in the sector, the national food balance sheet for cereals and tubers in the 2023/2024 Marketing Season indicates that the country will produce sufficient maize for both human consumption and industrial use.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to report that as at 1^st May, 2023, the total carryover stocks held by farmers, millers, grain traders and the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) was 450,891 metric tonnes with expected production of 3,261,686 metric tonnes of maize and the carryover stocks, that the total stocks of maize available in this marketing season is 3,712,576 metric tonnes.

Madam Speaker, the country has recorded a maize surplus of 470,379 metric tonnes. The food balance sheet further indicates that the total maize required for a projected population of 20.4 million for both human and industrial consumption and other commitments is about 3,242,197 metric tonnes. Overall, the country has a surplus of 209,722 metric tonnes of maize equivalent. The nation is, therefore, assured that the country will remain food secure in the foreseeable future for as long as vices such as smuggling are managed.

Madam Speaker, on the other hand, the national food balance sheet has revealed that the country has recorded a net deficit of 46,855 metric tonnes of paddy rice, net deficit of 108,561 metric tonnes of wheat for the 2022/2023 Agricultural Marketing Season.

Madam Speaker, let me now update the nation on the measures the Government is taking to enhance crop productivity and production in the country. As the Government, we are implementing policy reforms to promote sustainable production amidst threats of climate change. It is our commitment and duty to transform the agricultural sector and promote private sector participation in the production and marketing of agricultural commodities. Our Government further commits to supporting irrigation development, crop diversification and the adoption of climate resilient agricultural practices.

 

Madam Speaker, we have partnered with various co-operating partners in effectively implementing our reform agenda to meet key developmental targets. As some of you may be aware, the Government launched the Zambia Growth Opportunities for Results (ZAMGRO) Programme earlier this year. It aims to enhance agricultural production and productivity, access to markets and food and nutrition security at household and national levels. ZAMGRO targets the development of farming blocks and will help in boosting industrialisation, agricultural diversification and exports in the agricultural sector in line with the objectives of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

 

Madam Speaker, we are implementing policy reforms to promote sustainable production amidst the threat of climate challenge. It is our commitment and duty to transform the agricultural sector and promote private sector participation in the production and marketing of agricultural commodities.

Madam Speaker, our Government further commits to supporting irrigation development, crop diversification and adoption of climate resilient agricultural practices. The Government has also undertaken the Comprehensive Agriculture Transformation Support Programme (CATSP). The programme will be anchored on policy instruments and legislative reform which will stimulate production, increase value addition and the uptake of climate smart technologies, enhance job creation and food nutrition security.

Madam Speaker, at this juncture, allow me to update the nation on the crop marketing arrangements for the 2023/2024 Marketing Season. The Government, through the FRA will be buying the following commodities: paddy rice and white maize.

Madam Speaker, the FRA expects to purchase 500,000 metric tonnes of white maize and 1,000 metric tonnes of paddy rice. The quantities and prices of designated commodities that the agency will be buying during the crop marketing season include white maize at K5.60 per kg, which is equivalent to K280 per 50 kg bag or, indeed, K5,600 per metric tonne and paddy rice at K5 per kg, which is K200 per 40kg bag or K5,000 per metric tonne.
 

Madam Speaker, these prices should not be taken as floor prices. They are the prices at which the agency expects to purchase maize to meet the minimum statutory strategic reserve threshold of 1 million metric tonnes and 1,000 metric tonnes of paddy rice, respectively. Other players in the sector are urged to buy these crops at their own prices as the prices announced are not floor prices, but rather the FRA prices under the principle of willing seller and willing buyer.

Madam Speaker, let me state that in arriving at the determined price for 2023, the agency acknowledges the urgent need to replenish the strategic grain reserves from a dynamic grain market obtaining locally and in the region.

Madam Speaker, it is anticipated that the agency shall not disadvantage the private sector which is expected to purchase a larger share of the agricultural produce. As you may note, the FRA purchase share has averaged above 20 per cent of production over the years.

Madam Speaker, the agency, in determining floor prices, undertook a process of crop price scenario analysis that included the following:

1. survey of the prevailing farm gate and open market prices;
2. indicative crop gross margin budgets taking into account input cost in relation to cost reflective pricing; and
3. consultations with key market stakeholders and players in the crop marketing chain.

Madam Speaker. these prices will have accrued benefits to farmers in that:

1. farmers will be provided with a readily available market access closer to their localities through the 1,200 satellite depots to be established countrywide;
2. farmers will get a reward for their labour which will entail more money in their pockets;
3. there will be stimulation and growth of rural economies for farmers as well as local service providers such as transporters; and
4. the stimulus will enable farmers to adequately prepare for the upcoming agricultural season and further be motivated to increase crop production for the country’s food security, taking into consideration the increased national population.

Madam Speaker, in relation to the economic stimulus and the growth of rural economies, you may wish to note that in 2022, the agency bought designated crops worth K2.2 billion, of which 72 per cent was paid to farmers in outlying areas.

Madam Speaker, in ensuring that the grain to be purchased meets the standard requirements, the agency is monitoring the moisture content. As you may be aware, some crops are still in the field and yet to be harvested. However, in some parts of the country, where rains stop early, we expect that the grain has now reached the desirable moisture content and some sector players are already on the market buying grain from farmers.

Madam Speaker, during this year’s crop marketing season, the agency will operate a total of 1,200 satellite depots to provide market access to small scale farmers. This will result in the engagement of 4,800 seasonal buyers and security guards drawn from the local communities who are mainly youths and women and over 10,000 jobs for various activities associated with crop purchases. This opportunity will lead to the stimulation of rural economies and help in spurring development in rural areas.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore, urge the individuals who have been recruited to work in the depots countrywide to be professional and diligent in the execution of their duties and exercise of national importance.

Madam Speaker, the ministry urges sectors in the maize value chain, especially millers, to ensure that they prepare adequately to buy their own maize as the agency will not be used as a warehouse for millers’ maize requirements in future. Millers are, therefore, encouraged to buy sufficient stock of their own from farmers to sustain their milling businesses as the agency will not offload maize from the strategic grain reserves which, ideally, are meant for national emergencies as prescribed in the FRA Act.

 

Madam Speaker, consequently, future sales programmes for the FRA will only work with millers who make verifiable efforts to buy their own stocks. Further, the ministry wishes to remind and urge farmers to adhere to the general practices in ensuring that they clean the maize at their farmsteads to avoid congestion at the FRA depots.

Madam Speaker, I also implore all the FRA personnel and their stakeholders to uphold rationality, prudence, transparency and accountability for public resources that have been entrusted to their charge.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 55, and I quote (2) and (3). This follows the point of order which was raised by Hon. Kampyongo in the House, where he claimed that he is a member of the committee that prepares the Business of the House.

Madam Speaker, Standing Order 55 (2), and I quote

(2) Despite paragraph (1), a member may, by leave of the House, withdraw or defer an item of business on the Order paper.

(3) A member who wishes to withdraw or defer an item of business on the Order Paper shall seek leave of the House to defer or withdraw the item immediately the Speaker calls upon the member to debate on the item.

Madam Speaker, I rise on this point of order based on what Hon. Kampyongo told us, as a member of the committee that sits, that there cannot be changes on the Floor of the House as long as the hon. Minister does not give notice.

Madam Speaker, I seek your interpretation of Standing Order No. 55 (2) and (3).

Madam Speaker: That issue is true. Scheduled Business on the Order Paper can be withdrawn with the leave of the Speaker. However, in this specific case we are dealing with, there was no application for leave to withdraw the item. There was just an indication that there was a notice to withdraw, which was not seen, and there was no application for leave. That is why the hon. Minister was asked to deliver the ministerial statement, and he has delivered it.

It is just a matter of procedure. There was no application for leave and it was not granted. That is why the hon. Minister was required to deliver the ministerial statement. Since the hon. Minister has delivered it, we can proceed to the next item and ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement that has been rendered.

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, there cannot be a point of order on another point of order, is it another issue that you want to raise?

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, following your guidance that there cannot be a point of order on a point of order, the hon. Member who raised the point order raised a point of order on a point of order and raised it against your ruling. So, he has abrogated the rules of this House by raising a point of order on a point of order and against your ruling. Is he in order to raise a point of order on a point of order against your ruling?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, if we proceed in that manner, we will not make progress. I do not know how people are feeling today. It looks like the idea is to disrupt business. Can we get back to serious business and discharge our functions as laid out on the Order Paper.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for a well articulated statement. The hon. Minister indicated that the country has a surplus of maize, and I do not think it is by accident, but because of the good policies that the New Dawn Government has put in place in the agricultural sector.

 

Madam Speaker, this surplus requires that the Government increases the satellite depots. In the hon. Minister’s statement, he also indicated that some areas could not produce enough grain because of floods. Will the Government, therefore, consider increasing satellite depots in places like Dundumwezi, where farmers are still asking for satellite depots?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, that position is most welcome. It goes across the board that if there are hon. Members who feel that certain satellite depots are not useful in their constituencies, they can let us know. Those who feel that they need a little bit, the Government will see how it can move around and accommodate their request.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, in the hon. Ministers statement, he did not mention the yield for soya bean. I understand and I am aware that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) has over 90,000 metric tonnes of soya bean still in storage. Now that the Government is not procuring soya bean in this crop marketing season, what is its plan in ensuring that farmers do not have unprecedented loses for what they farmed considering that last year, the situation was that there was a restriction on the exports of soya bean, and I raised this issue on the Floor of this House.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I really appreciate that question.

Madam Speaker, the crop forecast figures have indicated that the production of soya bean has been very favourable. We, actually, have more than 700,000 metric tonnes of soya bean in the country.

 

We, at the ministry, are going to be giving export quotas for soya bean. Therefore, I am asking hon. Members, and through you, Madam Speaker, the citizens of Zambia who want to export to feel free to go and get an export permit at the ministry, which we will give. We will be dealing in quotas. So, if we say this month, we will give out 50,000, it will be on first come first serve basis on a reducing balance until that 50,000 is all taken up. So, it is imperative. Our usage of soya bean is about half what we have produced. Therefore, the other half should go away.

 

In fact, Madam Speaker, with due respect to the order that I give the statement, the reason I wanted to delay the issue of the statement was to add matters on soya bean, which we are trying to revisit after a lot of desire by people that the Government should do so. So, we were redoing our document so that on the issue of soya bean, I could have given a more comprehensive position than I did. Notwithstanding that, once we are ready, Madam Speaker, I will come to talk about soya bean on the Floor of the House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: In fact, I was going to say there is nothing to preclude the hon. Minister from coming back with another ministerial statement to talk about the soya bean issue. So, that is going to be addressed when the hon. Minister is ready.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I listened to the hon. Minister’s submission. He talked about smuggling. I would love to appreciate what smuggling is, because from Luangwa, all the way into Lumezi and Lundazi, trucks of transporters for Kavulamungu Allibu transporting mealie meal from Lusaka were being impounded by the Zambia National Service (ZNS). There is no boarder between Luangwa/Kacholola, Kacholola/Nyimba, Nyimba/Petauke, Petauke/Katete, Katete/Chipata, Chipata/Chipangali, Chipangali/Lumezi and Lundazi/Chasefu. He is talking of smuggling on one hand and on the other do the opposite outside the Chamber.

 

What measures is the Government putting in place that will not cause food shortages on the eastern corridor by virtue of it impounding vehicles that are transporting mealie meal to the good people of Lumezi, Lundazi and Chasefu? I know those trucks do not reach Chama.

 

It is worrying, Madam Speaker, that here, we talk of smuggling and, deliberately, our own Government decides to impound trucks for transporters without paying particular attention to how much they pay on demurrage fees. What solutions are we providing for the people of this country?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will take advantage of that question to explain why that status, as the hon. Member has defined,  is existing.

Madam Speaker, a few months ago, Zambia was treated to a very serious short period of shortages and price hikes on mealie meal. The narrative that time was that we had exported all the maize and, therefore, ran out.

Madam Speaker, that was totally not true. In my statement I just said that the opening stock for this year’s position is 450,000 metric tonnes, of which, 250,000 is the stock that is sitting with the FRA. This means that there was never a time when we had run out of maize because we had exported everything. So, what was it that was causing the shortage of mealie meal, especially on the Copperbelt and other border towns? It was the movement of mealie meal across borders without permits, and that is what is being defined as “smuggling.” We had many movements of mealie meal from the Copperbelt into neighbouring States; from Chipata into neighbouring States and from Nakonde into neighbouring States. So, that was an artificial shortage created because around Zambia, there is no maize that is sufficient and the only stock which was available in the region, really, was with Zambia. So, we had of false market coming onto the Zambian position.

 

Now, let me answer his question directly. Why were we stopping and why are we stopping inter-provincial movements of maize and mealie meal? There was a time, Madam Speaker, when there were eighty-five 30-tonne trucks in two weeks carrying mealie meal into the Eastern Province. It has never been like that. Where was the mealie meal being taken on eighty-five trucks? It was meant to go out of the country. At that point, we realised that our mealie meal was being found in neighbouring States, seriously so, more than we had here. A truck would offload mealie meal at Shoprite in Chipata and within five minutes, would be gone. A truck would offload at Choppies on the Copperbelt, but within three minutes, the mealie meal would be gone.

We had problems everywhere with the artificial shortage because the mealie meal was going out and so was the maize. So, by working together with the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, the Ministry of Commerce Trade and industry and other relevant ministries, we curbed the movement of mealie meal and returned to normalcy. Zambians started enjoying their mealie meal, as we know it. That was the reason. Up to now, we are still controlling because the crop forecast figures, Madam Speaker, for the region, which we are privy to, indicate that there will still be a shortage of maize in the region. So, if we are not careful, all our maize is going to go out.

Madam Speaker, let me illustrate that. Right now, we have hiked the producer price to K280 per 50 kg bag. Just across, in one of our neighbouring countries, the same bag going at K280, which is equivalent to US$280, is going at US$600 per tonne. In another country, it is going at US$350 a tonne. So, that just shows that if we allow free movement or careless movement, all our maize will go away.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, the hon. Minister was answering your question, but now you want to raise a point of order? What is the point of order?

 

A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I take you to Standing Order 65 which states that the information we give on the Floor of this House should be factual and verifiable. I am not speaking on behalf of the people of the Copperbelt and neither am I speaking on behalf of the people of the entire Eastern Province. I witnessed six trucks –

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

What is the point of order? This is not an opportunity for you to rebut what the hon. Minister said through a point of order. So, if that is what you intend to do, you are out of order. What is your point of order?

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to deliberately mislead this House, the country and himself that there were eighty-five trucks impounded when it is a matter of fact that vehicles were impounded in Kacholola and not Chipata Shoprite like he mentioned. I am a traveler on this road. We need verifiable information.

I seek your ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, I do not know whether it is the number of trucks, eighty-five, that you are challenging or where the trucks were impounded. I do not know whether that is going to add value to the debate that is going on right now. Let us stick to the facts. Let us be guided accordingly and also stick to the gist of what the hon. Minister was saying. He was saying that it was the smuggling that was taking away the mealie meal from the market rather than the importing. I do not know if that is correct, but that is what I heard the hon. Minister say. So, let us stick to substantive issues. Let us not deal with semantics.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. I wish to congratulate the hon. Minister of Agriculture for the wonderful statement as well as the bumper harvest. I am glad that he is putting measures to safeguard our country.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about irrigation being a good measure to supplement our rainfall, especially that we have had challenges in my Constituency, Mbabala, such as flash floods,and other challenges caused by the rainfall pattern. We have a number of dams such as Kabanga, Mbole, Kabanse and others that require rehabilitation for us to carry out irrigation. Our people are very much interested to grow winter crops or irrigation crops. However, our dams are badly damaged and not functioning, including weir dams. What practical measures has the ministry put in place to ensure that these dams are prepared, so that we can participate in irrigation activities and increase the bumper harvest next year?

 

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. Member for Mbabala that the Ministry of Agriculture is working very closely with the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation and the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment.We have been tasked to ensure that we rehabilitate the dams that have been damaged over a period of time and the weir dams he has talked about so that we provide the much-needed irrigation to the Zambian population. So, I will check how many of the dams in Mbabala are included on the list for rehabilitation this season and will communicate that to the hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker. Thank you. Let us give an opportunity to a female hon. Member of Parliament, the hon. Member for Chienge.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for being gender sensitive. The hon. Minister spoke about the producer price for maize, which is at K280. May I find out, on behalf of the nation and the people of Chienge because as we speak, a 25Kg bag of maize is costing K280. Now, my question is: How much will the miller charge the people of Chienge for a 25kg bag of breakfast mealie meal since the producer price is now K280?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I am extremely delighted that the hon. Member for Chienge has picked what we are talking about, that the current Government is going to pay farmers at K280 per 50 kg bag of maize. That is what we are doing, so that the farmers can be encouraged to produce more next year. The price of mealie meal could be determined by the millers in Chienge, but it will not be so different as compared to the current prices which are around K180, K190, K200 and a little bit more. So, that will be about the pricing.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, the forecast for the crop marketing season looked very good. I will also ride on the question from my hon. Colleague from Chienge. When we look at the position last year, we had the floor price ranging from K180 to K200, roundabout there. This year, we have gone up and are now at K5.6 per kg, giving us 280 per 50 kg bag. So, how possible is it that we can still continue to maintain the same price when the cost of the raw material has gone up? I have a heavy concern that Millers will definitely buy at the indicative floor price of K280. How will the ministry manage to keep the price of mealie meal down since the price of raw materials has gone up?

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Before the hon. Minister comes on, I have decided to add another ten minutes to the time because he took almost half of it.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, yet again, let me indicate that last year, the price of maize to the miller was at K200 per 50 kg bag. What we bought was at K180. This year, we are buying at K280. If we assimilate the figures, we will not be selling this maize to the millers at a price more than K320. For as long as the price is about K300 to the miller, the price differential on mealie meal will be very minimal. It will definitely not be the same as it is now but, the increase will not be that which Zambians cannot afford. We will have mealie meal at affordable prices.

However, let me indicate that it is better we have mealie meal in the shops at a slightly higher price than not have it at all. If we are going to buy at prices less than this, I have indicated here that there are countries just next door buying this same maize at K600 per 50 kg bag; another one buying at K350 per 50 kg; and another, which is a little bit further away, buying at almost K750 a 50 kg bag. If we are going to maintain low prices because we feel that we need to support the consumption figures, we are not going to buy sufficient maize for our local consumption. All the maize will be bought and will be taken outside the country, illegally. We need to be sensitive to that as Zambians and hon. Members of this House should be able to educate people in their respective constituencies.

 

Madam Speaker, this is important, and I am grateful that the hon. Member, who is from the milling industry, is able to raise this question.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you …

Eng. Nzovu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 44, which states the duties of the Leader of the Opposition, and 49, which states the duties of the Party Whip.

Madam Speaker, I notice with concern that both these senior officers whose duties are to liaise with the Speaker, Leader of Government Business and the Government Chief Whip on the business of the House as well as state Government policies and propose possible alternatives in their debate are both missing in the House. When we look at the names of the officers missing, they are the people who aspire to lead the country. They have also decided to send away people who are normally in the front row who sit in for them whenever they are absent in the House.

Madam Speaker, are they in order to absent themselves in this manner? I seek your very serious ruling because this is a serious House and we have a serious debate on the Floor of this House pertaining to the development of the agricultural sector in the country.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling

 

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for that point of order. I will reserve my ruling so that I can look precisely at the duties of the Leader of the Opposition and the Party Whip because these are offices established by the Constitution. So, I need to look at them precisely so that I can render a measured ruling.

We can proceed, hon. Member for Lundazi.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, thank you for the Opportunity, once more, to ask a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. In his statement, if I got him correctly, he stated that he is going to allow millers to buy their own maize; they will have to source it by themselves.

Madam Speaker, if it was so difficult to control the millers when the Government was giving them maize out of the stock that it had, how is the Government going to manage them; how are they going to be controlled from exporting the maize which they are going to freely buy from wherever they will buy it? What measures is the Government going to put in place so that these people do not hold it at ransom and exploit us, the poor people of Zambia, especially those who are in Lundazi?

Mt Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will answer the hon. Member in three parts.

Madam Speaker, firstly, we realise that not all areas have milling industries. Therefore, as much as we restrict movement of mealie meal and maize, for certain areas, we still allow regulated movement, and Lundazi is one such area. There is a trader there called Aliboo, who is one of the six traders allowed to move mealie meal into Lundazi. That is point number one.

 

Madam Speaker, the second point is that what has been happening, whereby, millers queue at the FRA to get maize and go and mill, is wrong. We have said to the millers that we will not encourage that to happen again. Millers should buy their own maize, keep their own maize and mill their maize, across the period.

 

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Mtolo: The FRA cannot be suffering the cost of storing, fumigating and maintaining the maize on behalf of the millers. That is not correct. So, we are not going to encourage that. It never used to be like that. It is something which has just started happening and we want to terminate it. We want to exclude and keep it away. Millers should buy their own maize and mill their own maize. The FRA is only supposed to come in during times of need and emergencies. We should not keep maize for the millers and they queue on the line to buy. That is wrong and we are going to discourage that.

Madam Speaker, the last part is that when we say millers should buy their own maize and mill it, we are not saying that they are free to export it without permits. If they do, they will lose their maize or mealie meal. They will also lose the vessel which they are using to smuggle. Furthermore, they will lose their freedom because they will be inconvenienced, just like a lot have lost their freedom, vessels and commodity. Right now, we have a lot of commodity at the FRA and it will be given free to other institutions that need it. So, this is a serious warning to those who intend to do things illegally.

Madam Speaker, I am very grateful to the hon. Member for raising that point.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I like the way the hon. Minister responds to questions, giving hope to the hopeless.

 

Madam Speaker, let me come to the issue of satellite depots that the hon. Minister talked about being established countrywide. The people of Solwezi East have been victims of the issues of mealie meal and maize especially that they have only one gazetted market at the Kipushi Border, where they do their trade in maize and mealie meal.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about setting up depots. Through the provincial agricultural offices in the North-Western Province, a request was made and that time we had serious issues at the border to resolve the harassment that was going on between our residents in Mushindamo and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) which, up to now, has continued. There was a request through the Ministry of Agriculture that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) should set up, at least, three depots. One should be in the northern region under Chief Musaka and Chieftainess Chikola and another in the central region under Chief Kalilele and Chief Mulonga. We can also have another one in the southern region under Chief Mujimanzovu.

Madam Speaker, the people are, therefore, asking when the FRA is going to set up these depots, so that our farmers should, at least, be able to sell their maize to the FRA. This would put an end to them continuously being harassed each time they take their one or two bags of maize or mealie meal to the border. They want to get this assurance as soon possible since it is now marketing season.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, please, can we be precise when we are asking questions.

Mt Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I humbly ask the hon. Member to write a letter to our office, or to the FRA and give me a copy, so that we open these three depots. When people want us to open depots to buy, we are very happy. When they are asking us for depots to sell in a place like Kipushi, Kasumbalesa and other border areas like Chipata or Nakonde, then we become very worried because the maize is simply taken out of the country. However, for us to buy the maize, we are very happy to come. So, I urge the hon. Member to please write a letter and I can assure him that we will open those depots.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. As he has mentioned, not too long ago, we had high prices of mealie meal, which I think caused a lot of discontent among the Zambian people. There was a lot of fire fighting just to ensure that these prices were curbed.

Madam Speaker, there is a World Bank report that there a looming food crisis I think in the world. The hon. Minister earlier mentioned that in the region, Zambia was the only country which had maize. Some of our neighbouring countries have been mentioned in that report that they will be going through that food crisis. Therefore, what measures are being put in place to ensure that we are not affected because it is an issue of supply and demand? What measures has the Ministry of Agriculture put in place to ensure that we do not go through the same crisis we went through?

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, that is the time that we can take questions on. I can see there is a lot of interest. However, the hon. Minister has promised that he is going to come back with another ministerial statement. The hon. Member for Matero is insisting that he wants to ask a question. Maybe, I will give him an opportunity to ask the last question.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, thank you –

Madam Speaker: Before you ask, hon. Member, maybe, the hon. Minister should first come and answer and then you can ask your question.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, with the security organs of this country, we are not going to stop the surveillance in the border areas and on the roads of Zambia. We are going to conduct inter-district and inter-provincial surveillance to check, so that we protect the little food that we have. Hon. Mwiimbu is here and we are going to continue to make sure that we have patrols. The hon. Minister of Defence is also here and we are going to make sure that we continue checking.

Mr Amutike interjected.

Mr Mtolo: Indeed, we have said that we will also use civilian protection because it worked very well. Zambians were told that they should not allow their food to cross borders illegally because they will be hungry, and it worked well.

Madam Speaker, let me say this to the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa and the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. If each one of us can grow just enough maize, in a field the size of this building, we will be able to have more than twelve bags of maize. Those twelve bags of maize are enough to feed an average family in Zambia for one year.

Madam Speaker, we need to encourage ourselves to cultivate and produce just twelve bags of maize; 1, 2, 3, 4 up to 12. One bag is enough for an average family. This would exclude all of us from the market looking for mealie meal and we would leave the maize that is produced for export to give us foreign exchange.

 

Madam Speaker, this is a very serious plea to hon. Members of the House to tell the constituents.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving us, the Opposition, a voice to speak, and give checks and balances to the Executive. Many thanks go to the hon. Minister of Agriculture, Hon. Reuben Mtolo, for the succinct statement.

Madam Speaker, I will read so that I am brief. The statement was to the point. On the crop forecast, my concern, on behalf of farmers of Zambia; commercial farmers and subsistence farmers, is that it seems to be obtained wrongly year in year out. When the production threshold is said to be something, there is either over production or under production, be it for maize tobacco or soya bean.

Madam, Speaker, speaking on soya bean, the hon. Minister in his statement said the production has been 50 per cent of what was forecast last year. I spoke to Mount Meru Zambia Ltd and it is now offering half the price of what our farmer’s cost price was. It is offering K6,500 per tonne, which does not even cover the farmers’ cost price because production is 55 per cent more than the hon. Minister gave us as a forecast last year, here. Where is the problem with the forecast?

Madam Speaker, my funso, ilipusho, my question to the hon. Minister is not a traditional question; I am very serious here as I ask, and there are many farmers listening out there. Given that the Eastern Province is actually one of the top three agricultural producers in the country in any crop; maize, soya bean, tobacco and cotton – you can mention all the provinces, but I will not mention them.

 

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Can you be precise. We do not have much time. Remember that it was a bonus question. So, use your time properly.

 

Mr Sampa: My question, Madam Speaker, is: Given that the Eastern Province is one of the top three agricultural production areas in the country by any crop measure, why do we keep getting the forecast wrong? Can the hon. Minister answer? Is it because of over indulgence in a certain crop, only highly grown in Chipata, Petauke and Lumezi? That crop is illegal and only smoked indoors. Why is everything in the Eastern Province coming out wrong? Is it because of over indulgence and the smoking of that traditional substance?

Madam Speaker, this is a very serious question.

Madam Speaker: Now, that is something else. Can you, please, withdraw the smoking part because you have not provided any evidence to show that people smoke a substance in the Eastern Province?

Mr Sampa: Much obliged, Madam Speaker, the question is: Why is,–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Withdraw the issue of smoking.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I unreservedly withdraw the issue of smoking. The real question is why is crop production in the country for the last three years either over stated or understated, be it for maize soya bean, groundnuts or tobacco?

 

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, in the third paragraph of my statement, this is what I indicated: “From the onset, I wish to state that the statistics that I am about to give are produced through a universally adopted scientific methodology that has been used by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Zambia Statistics Agency (ZAMSTAT), over a long time.”

 

Madam Speaker, the point I was trying to give out is this: These statistics are given by ZAMSTAT, an institution created by Zambia to just provide statistics to the country. We do not, as the Ministry of Agriculture, interfere in the production of these figures. It has not been like that. They are produced by universally accepted standards and there is the Statistician-General in this country who sits at what used to be the Central Statistics Office (CSO) to give us these figures. So, we have nothing to do with them.

Madam Speaker, the second part is: I take cognisance of what Hon. Sampa said. Previously, we used to have a forecast before planting, when the crop was in field and after harvesting. However, that has not been the case in the recent past, and our aim is to get back to that system so we can get figures more accurately by looking at what was predicted and what really comes out.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

UPGRADING OF MAGOYE RURAL HEALTH CENTRE

270. Mr Malambo (Magoye) asked the Minister of Health:

1. whether the Government has any plans to upgrade the Magoye Rural Health Centre to a mini hospital;

 

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
2. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, the Government has no plans to upgrade Magoye Rural Health Centre to a mini-hospital.

Madam Speaker, as stated for part (a) of the question, the Government has no plans to upgrade Magoye Rural Health Centre to a mini-hospital, therefore, part (b) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that health services in the country are delivered in a service delivery structure that aims at providing health services as close to the family as possible. To achieve this, the delivery system has been classified as follows:

1. health posts
2. health centres (rural or Urban)
3. 1^st level hospitals
4. 2^nd level hospitals
5. 3^rd level hospitals
6. 4^th level hospitals

Going forward, the Government will only construct or upgrade health facilities using the above mentioned services delivery system. Magoye Rural Health Centre has a central statistics office projected catchment population of 8,740 for 2023. Therefore, it does not meet the criteria to be upgraded to the next level, which is level 1 hospital.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

Mr Malambo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that Magoye sits between Mazabuka and Monze, and the distance from the furthest health facility in Namaila is about 67 km. You will find that a good number of people find it very difficult to seek service at either Monze or Mazabuka main hospitals. It is for this reason that the people of Magoye are asking for this facility, Magoye Rural Health Centre, to be improved. How I wish the hon. Minister, in her plan, could consider Magoye Rural Health Centre to, at least, be upgraded so that our people could have a referral point to seek their health services.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of health, do you have any comment on that?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, maybe, to just say that we will be looking at the issue of Magoye in that regard. However, as I said, currently, we are looking at population as the main driver to upgrading a facility. In any case, Magoye Rural Health Centre can be upgraded by way of improving the kind of services that are being given to the people there, but that does not mean that it has to be upgraded to a first level hospital.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Minister on her recent visit to the Western Province.

Madam Speaker, mentioning mini-hospitals, what plans does the hon. Minister have concerning mini-hospitals, more so in districts like Mitete that have none? I am talking about mini hospitals nation-wide.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mitete, Question 270 is constituency based. It is talking about a mini-hospital in Magoye. So, that issue that you have brought about, which is more national, can be directed to the hon. Minister in another question because asking her now, I believe, she will be taken by surprise.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that one factor, among others, that she considers to upgrade a health facility is population. May I know what population she will consider in the case of Magoye?

 

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, every level has a particular population assigned to it. For example, a health post would be for a population of 3,500. Then the next one will be another population, and so on and so forth. Currently, the population under Magoye is 8,740. So, when you look at that population, it does not meet the number of people that would require a level one hospital. I have already indicated that the issue here is that, these, what you are calling mini- hospitals, for us now, are simply health centres, whether in urban or rural areas. That is how we are looking at them. We are not looking at them as hospitals. We are looking at them as improved health centres. They are just health centres.

Madam Speaker, I did indicate, yesterday, that currently, we are going to expand services at that level of a facility. For example, I did indicate the issue of maternity annexes being added to all the health centres in the country, whether rural or urban, as a way of improving on service delivery at that level.

Now, Madam Speaker, level 1 is a district hospital. So, in between level one and a rural health centre, we have no mini-hospital story under this administration. Yes, hon. Members can call them mini- hospitals because that is what they were called. So, people will ask us those questions, but the answer is simple; we have reclassified all the facilities and we will stick to those, as has been already explained. First of all, you have health posts. Under health posts, you have health centres and then you have 1^st, 2^nd, 3^rd and 4^th levels. In these levels, we are going to specify the various services that will be given at each level, and the issues of population and distance.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before we proceed, the hon. Member for Pambashe wants to raise a point of order, but I was just indicating to him that he was out of the House most the time. However, now, he wants to walk in and raise a point of order.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order, hon. Member for Pambashe?

 

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, thank you for graciously granting me the opportunity to raise a point of order that would have been raised contemporaneously, yesterday, on the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, who was performing the duties of the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. This was due to some factual information I wanted to retrieve. (Waving a document)

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Member!

You are out of order. If that matter happened yesterday and you could not raise it, I suggest that you put something in writing to my office and it will be attended to.

Mr Chitotela: Okay.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Hon. Member for Magoye, do you have another question?

Mr Malambo: Yes, Madam Speaker. I am a little confused over the matter of population as indicated by the hon. Minister because I am given the statistics for 2010. I do not have the current ones. The number is 71,231, meaning that we are within the catchment, as indicated by the hon. Minister. So, I just wanted to correct her on the part of the population. It is at 71,231.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, figures have been given, what is your reaction to that?

 

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, let me read: Magoye Rural Health Centre has the Central Statistics Office projected catchment population – not population but catchment population – of 8,740 for 2023. Therefore, it does not meet the criterion to be upgraded to the next level of care.

Madam Speaker, there was a question as to what will be the next level of care in terms of population. The next level of care from where Magoye is – because I said 3,500, –10,000 for a rural health centre; 30,000 for an urban health centre; 80,000 for level 1 hospital, which is a district hospital; 200,000 for a general hospital, which is a second level hospital; and a third level, is above 800,000, which is a teaching hospital. Lastly, the specialised hospital will be, obviously, at national level, meaning the whole population of the nation.

So, Madam Speaker, to that effect, I still say that Magoye does not qualify to be given a district hospital, which would have a catchment population of 80,000.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, this facility in Magoye, to the nearest hospital, is 67 km away. So, this community, which is living around this area of Magoye, is 67 km away from a facility where there is a doctor. Would the hon. Minister not really look into the issue of serving this community by upgrading it? What I understand is that upgrading means nearing or closing up the gap of the doctor to the community. She would be bringing the doctor closer to the people.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu: Would this not be a factor for consideration?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Ema MP aya!

Madam Speaker: The left is back and the noise is something else.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On a lighter note, welcome back.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, obviously, the need for doctors and health services to be as close to the people as possible, cannot be overemphasised. However, at the end of the day, we have to do things according to our capacity, as a nation. Therefore, here, where we are sitting, many of these parliamentarians, if you asked them, would tell you that they have populations of people that have to walk even longer distances than that. It is the intention of the Government that one day soon, we could get to that level. So, we shall continue, except that we need to do these things in such a way that we make sure that the whole country has some level of quality health service delivery whilst appreciating that point.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

CONSTRUCTION OF CHILILALILA LOCAL COURT IN BWACHA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

271. Mr Mushanga (Bwacha) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. when the construction of Chililalila Local Court in Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency will be completed;
2. what the cause of the delay in completing the project is;
3. how much money was owed to the contractor as of August, 2022; and
4. what the estimated time-frame for the completion of the outstanding works is.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Speaker, the construction of Chililalila Local Court, commonly known as Makululu Local Court, will be completed in the third quarter of 2023.

Madam Speaker, the cause of delay was due to the lack of funding in the past years.

Madam Speaker, there is no money owed to the contractor as of August 2022.

Madam Speaker, the estimated time-frame for the completion of outstanding works is twelve weeks.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Acting Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development for the responses given. In responding to the first question, the hon. Minister indicated that the project will be completed in the third quarter and question two, that the delay was as a result of monies not being available.

Madam Speaker, may I find out from hon. Acting Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development whether the money is now available to complete the project.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, by responding in the manner that I did, we are committed that the project shall be completed in the third quarter. We do believe that the funds shall be available to complete the project in the said period.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the contractor, as at August 2022, was not being owed any money by the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the ministry that is implementing the project. However, during my tour of duty, as I was visiting the same Chililalila Ward, in conversing with the contractor, he indicated that as at August 2022, he was being owed K550,000. The hon. Minister indicated that the contractor is not being owed. So, which is which? The contractor is saying that as the Government, we owe him, but the ministry is indicating that he is not being owed. So, I would like a clarification, and I am sure the contractor is also listening.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, it is wise that when I give a position, I give a Government position. I do not suppose that we should try and ascertain as to who is telling the truth. The Government does not lie.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, what I have given him is the Government position and, therefore, he will be wise to take that as the official Government position.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CATTLE IN SOUTHERN PROVINCE

272. Mr Malambo asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

1. what the cattle inventory for the Southern Province was, as of July, 2022;
2. whether the Government has any plans to curb cattle diseases in the province;
3. if so, how the Government plans to roll-out the disease control exercise; and
4. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that my ministry conducted a livestock survey in 2022 and established that the population of cattle in the Southern Province was 2,216,076 as at 30^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker, I inform the House and, indeed, the nation that prevention and control of animal disease, across the country, is top on the Government’s agenda. May I take this opportunity to inform the House that by law, animal diseases are classified in two categories; Diseases of National Economic Importance (DNEI) and Management Diseases (MDs).

Madam Speaker, DNEI are those diseases that are highly contagious and cannot be controlled by efforts of a single farmer and whose death rates can reach up to 100%, and also affect trade as well as social wellbeing of the communities. These diseases include Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD), Contagious Bovine Pleuropneumonia (CBPP) and African Swine Fever (A5F). For the control of these diseases, the Government is responsible and offers service as a public good. The Government intervenes during epidemics. These include rabies and anthrax.

Madam Speaker, on the other hand, MDs are diseases whose effect is not drastic and their spread is slow and can be controlled by individual farmers if they carry out stipulated good management practices like regular vaccinations, de-worming and dipping. These diseases include Tick Borne Disease (TBDs) such as Corridor Disease (CD) or East Coast Fever (ECF), locally known as chigodola in the Eastern Province or denkete in the Southern Province, blackleg and lumpy skin disease. The cost of controlling management diseases is the responsibility of the farmer. The Government offers technical support to farmers for the prevention and control of these diseases. The support includes production of affordable vaccines, extension services for good animal husbandry and health.

Madam Speaker, my ministry is already on the ground preventing and controlling animal diseases across the country. These measures are effected pursuant to the Animal Health Act No. 27 of 2010 of the Laws of Zambia and are intended to guard against the spread of the diseases amongst animals to humans and other areas of the country.

 

Madam Speaker, the following are the measures undertaken to prevent and control animal diseases in the Southern Province and, indeed, in areas where such diseases are prevalent:

1. extension services – staff of the ministry are available countrywide in veterinary camps to assist farmers with knowledge on how to prevent and control animal diseases. I inform the House that my ministry is in the process of acquiring motorcycles to ensure these field soldiers can effectively cover their areas of operation in offering services to our people. A total of 338 motorcycles have been procured and are now in the process of being delivered. More are expected to be procured this year;
2. public awareness campaigns – the Government, through my ministry, provides public awareness to communities through radio programmes and farmer group meetings. The ministry has embarked on radio sensitisation for all radio stations in the Southern Province in view of the recent increased reports of TBDs. The campaigns are conducted to sensitise livestock farmers on disease prevalence in the districts, the dangers they pose to the cattle industry and the need for farmers to identify diseases early and take corrective actions;
3. ban on the movement of cattle – in cases where there is a disease outbreak, my ministry may introduce a ban on livestock movement in affected areas to stop the spread of disease and allow appropriate control measures to be conducted;
4. vaccinations – my ministry is vaccinating livestock against FMD and ECF in veterinary camps in the Southern Province. Farmers are encouraged to purchase other vaccines like anthrax, blackleg from the available vaccines that are provided. Extension officers are available to help in the administration of the purchased vaccines.

Madam Speaker, other measures include testing in all prescribed areas in order to identify the infected herds for various diseases; annual sero surveillance; and strengthening of abattoir surveillance to ensure rapid and efficient trace-back of the source of diseases. These will be augmented with the construction of quarantine facilities in strategic areas, construction of bio-security checkpoints at strategic points and construction of a plant for vaccine production at the Central Veterinary Research Institute (CVRI).

Madam Speaker, as the plans are ongoing, as outlined in the response to (c) above, (d) falls off.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much.

I was even wondering whether it was a ministerial statement. It was too comprehensive, indeed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I would have loved it if, in his statement, the hon. Minister had indicated other measures such as the issue of veterinary officers. We believe that some veterinary officers, sometimes, do allow animals to pass to other districts illegally.

Madam Speaker, there was a case of Contagious Bovine Pleuropneumonia (CBPP) which was reported in the Southern Province, in particular, Chibombo area.

Laughter

Mr Tayengwa: Chibombo area. I know my question is specifically talking about the Southern Province. That is why I have indicated Siavonga.

Madam Speaker, there was a case of CBPP that was reported. So, may I find out from the hon. Minister what measures he is putting in place to ensure that cases of such nature do not occur in places where we have a huge population of animals, like the Southern Province?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. I am sure the hon. Member mixed up; he was talking about Siavonga.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, in terms of issues to do with Contagious Bovine Pleuropneumonia (CBPP), as soon as we get such reports, we quickly send our officers to go and conduct tests and immediately clear off the affected animals. Secondly, as the Government, we are intensifying checkpoints to make sure that any farmer or trader who transports animals has the necessary papers that have cleared the animals.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malambo (Magoye): Madam Speaker, I appreciate in the sense that, for the first time in the history of this country, all the animals in Mazabuka District were vaccinated against Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD), meaning 100 per cent. So, it is kudos to the New Dawn Government. However, may I find out whether the distribution of vaccines is equivalent to the number of cattle in the Southern Province?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I do not know what type of vaccine the hon. Member is talking about; whether it is against Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD) or CBPP. Maybe he could be clearer.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Could you be clearer, hon. Member for Magoye.

Mr Malambo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I meant FMD.

Hon. Member: FNB!

Laughter

Mr Chikote: It is FMD.

Madam Speaker, the vaccine that we purchase, as the hon. Member stated, for FMD, we get it equivalent to the total number of animals that we have in the Southern Province. If there is any place that has been left out, I am sure it is just for the lack of information. However, as a ministry, we purchase vaccines equivalent to the total number of animals that we have.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mubika interjected.

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Speaker, I think I need your protection from the hon. Member for Shangombo.

Madam, I thank you for the opportunity. Given the happenings in the Southern Province and even in the Central Province, where we are losing a lot of cattle due to disease, are there any plans to try and see whether there are possible ways of ensuring our cattle are vaccinated, especially that cattle rearing is now being considered as one of the biggest opportunities in agriculture in the country as we expand our economy in the New Dawn Government?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, as I explained in answering section (b) of the question, there are two things that I would like my hon. Colleagues to understand. There are diseases that are a responsibility of a farmer, which I described as management diseases. There are also diseases that I said are a responsibility of the Government; diseases of national economic importance. Those are a responsibility of the Government. I have laid out interventions that the Government is putting in place in order to protect the industry. So, once farmers realise that their herds have been attacked by unknown diseases to them, it is very important for them to help us and inform our staff so that they quickly go in and identify what type of disease has affected them.

Madam Speaker, the ministry is ready to help all our farmers in order to protect this industry, which is an economic industry.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the wonderful statement and, indeed, the support to Mbabala; we just received an extension officer in the Mbabala block and a motorbike in Kabanze area.

Madam Speaker, in our constituency, we have lost many animals, and are wondering why the vaccination programme is not comprehensive enough to cover the constituency, fully. A number of areas have not been attended to in the vaccination programme for the Southern Province.

I seek the hon. Minister’s serious consideration of this question.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has stated that in his constituency, they have lost a number of animals. The reports that we have, so far, indicate that what is causing a number of our cattle in Magoye, −

Is it Mbabala?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is Mbabala hon. Minister, which is in the Southern Province.

Mr Chikote: Thank you very much for the guidance, Madam Speaker. Mbabala.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mambala!

Laughter

Mr Chikote: In general, Madam Speaker, the Southern Province reports that we have on the table, as at now, are about the tick-borne disease that has actually come up because of the effects of climate change that we are going through, such as floods and droughts.

Madam Speaker, most of the diseases that are causing cattle to die in the Southern Province are management diseases. So, that is why we are trying the best that we can, as a ministry, to sensitise our communities about implementing their best practices at the farm level because it is the responsibility of a farmer to respond to management diseases. It is not exactly for the Government. All we do is provide technical support to our farmers to respond to such kinds of diseases.

Madam Speaker, so far, there is no report that we have received that cattle in the Southern Province are dying from FMD or CBPP. The Tick-borne disease is a management disease which a farmer should take responsibility for, of course, with support from the ministry in terms of technical ideas on how to prevent it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Itezhi-Tezhi an opportunity to ask a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, I represent a constituency that has more cattle than people. I think it is right that I, also, ask a follow-up question. I would, first of all, like to appreciate the fact that, so far, Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD) has been contained because we are seeing consistency in the vaccination exercises that are taking place, and we thank the hon. Minister for those efforts.

Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister mentioned that in order to contain most of those diseases, the extension support and the technical support that comes from the officers is critical. I know that animals are just like human beings; they need quick response. When a cow breaks its hoof, it needs somebody to quickly go and respond. Now, in the Southern Province, Itezhi-Tezhi in particular, extension officers stay in town and not in the camps. To me, that defeats the whole purpose of providing extension services because farmers now pay more. When an animal breaks its hoof, the farmer is forced, …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You are now debating. What is your question?

Ms Mulenga: Imagine!

Mr Mutinta: Someone is saying “imagine” yet she comes from Kalulushi where there are no animals.

Ms Mulenga: I am a farmer. Why are you attacking me?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi!

You are addressing the Chair. I was just cautioning you that you are debating instead of asking a question. Is it possible for you to wind up your question?

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, what is the Government going to do to ensure that extension officers stay in the camps and farmers do not incur additional costs in responding to emergencies regarding prevention of diseases to their animals?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, actually, what the hon. Member said is very true. If the Government does not strengthen its extension services, it is not going to achieve what it is supposed to achieve in the industry of cattle or livestock.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I assure him that, as a ministry, we have decided to put up measures and monitoring systems of making sure that all our extension officers are in their camps. That answers the challenge of responding to farmers whenever they have challenges in their farms.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that even His Excellency the President has already given a directive that all camp officers must be in the camps. So, as a ministry, we are now trying to make sure that we are making follow-ups to ensure that every camp officer is in his/her camp. So, this is work in progress. You know this is a system that we found. So, we are trying to work hard to ensure that we correct the situation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I acknowledge that keeping cattle is one of the best ways of storing value, especially in Kenya. Some people store value in vehicles, other properties and banks, but cattle is one of the best ways.

Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s response to part (a) of the question, he stated that the Southern Province has over 2 million cattle. That said, well done to the Southern Province. However, I want to quote a statement from a Facebook page called “The Demographer” dated 26^th December, 2022:

“Southern Province has the highest cattle population while the Eastern Province has more people who keep cattle, although they keep cattle in smaller quantities compared to Southern Province.”

This means that in the Eastern Province, each person has one cow and in the Southern Province, one person can have 500 or 2,000 cattle. The question, therefore, to the hon. Minister is: What is the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock doing to ensure that within the Southern Province, more people can own, at least, one cattle and, beyond that, in all the other provinces, starting with Lusaka Province, the Central Province, Muchinga Province, the Northern Province, Luapula, the North-Western Province and the Western Province, at least, each person can own one cow? What is the ministry doing? Is it thinking of giving each one of those subsistence residents, at least, one cow as start-up capital?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That seems to be a new question. We have a question before us which talks about how many cattle are in the Southern Province and it goes on to talk about the diseases. Hon. Minister, do you have an answer for that new question?

Laughter

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, just for the sake of encouraging our hon. Member of Parliament, we are putting up many interventions to protect the industry so that, in the long run, more of our people can understand the importance of this industry, and people like the hon. Member for Matero can also start owning cattle.

So, we are trying our best to make sure that people understand the value of cattle. This is an industry which can change the livelihood of our people. So, our target is not just the Southern Province or the Eastern Province. It is to make sure that wherever we have favourable conditions to keep animals, we should encourage people to start investing their money. Hence, in our Constituency Development Fund (CFD), there is an opportunity of getting grants and investing in the livestock sector.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his statement, mentioned that the ministry bought 300 plus bicycles. How much is each, and are they only for that particular constituency and the Southern Province or the whole country?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, since you mentioned something about bicycles in your response, are you able to respond to that question?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, first of all, I did not say bicycles. I said motorcycles. The response was regarding the issues of what the Government is doing to support our farmers. So, that number I gave, the 338 motorcycles that have already been purchased, is not just meant for the Southern Province, but for veterinary services across the country. We are trying to equip our staff so that they are mobile and are able to visit our farmers in their camps.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last two questions from the hon. Member for Dundumwezi and the hon. Member for Sikongo.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, let me state that I am a small-scale livestock farmer. The hon. Minister indicated in one of his responses that management diseases are supposed to be taken care of by individual farmers. However, the current regulations by Zambia Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMSA) are prohibitive. Is the Government considering reviewing these regulations because most of the drugs are so expensive that ordinary farmers cannot afford. This is because the current regulations are too prohibitive to allow many farmers to own agro pharmaceuticals to deal with livestock drugs. Is the Government considering reviewing the current regulations?

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. It is directed at the hon. Minister of Fishers and Livestock who is responding to questions on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, I asked a question regarding the cost of a motorcycle, but he has not responded according to the question. He has dodged the question. Therefore, is he in order to dodge the question instead of giving the good people of the Southern Province and Zambia at large the actual answer to the question, the cost of each motorcycle?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Since the hon. Minister is still on the Floor, as he answers the question from the hon. Member for Dundumwezi, he is going to give a response over the cost of a motorcycle.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, first of all, the question from the hon. Member for Petauke Central was whether the motorcycles were meant for the Southern Province, and I answered that question. What he is saying is that we are guided by the Standing Orders, and an hon. Member of Parliament is entitled to only one question. So, I picked the question he asked on whether the motorcycles were for the Southern Province, and I told him that they were for veterinary services. That is how I answered the question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, coming to the issue of helping farmers to access drugs in relation to the Zambia Medicines Regulatory Authority (ZAMRA), there is progress being made. We are trying to make sure that we facilitate issues of farmers accessing drugs by engaging ZAMRA to look at the laws that govern the purchasing or ordering of medicines or drugs for livestock. So, what we are doing is that we are busy reviewing the laws that have been in existence for some time and hope we are going to provide a conducive environment in as far as drugs and vaccines for livestock are concerned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, the potential of the livestock sector to contribute to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in this country is huge, but I think it has been hampered by the presence of livestock diseases. In this regard, I commend and thank the hon. Minister and, indeed, the New Dawn Administration, for the efforts they are putting in place to try and improve the livestock sector. However, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether his ministry has any plans to turn Balmora Research Institute which, at the moment, deals with issues of vaccines, from being a section into a department so that its operations can be enhanced, just like the Mount Makulu Research Institute?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, that is a new question altogether. Maybe, you should come up with your own question. Balmoral, I believe, is in Lusaka. 

We can now move on to … I will allow just one Independent hon. Member since there was only one voice that we heard. I had indicated that the last person was the hon. Member for Sikongo, but I am going to allow the hon. Member for Nyimba to be the last one.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the answers coming from the hon. Minister on how he is trying to curb cattle diseases in the Southern Province.

Madam Speaker, as much as he is controlling diseases in the Southern Province, I think it is a well-known fact that diseases can be managed in the entire nine out of the ten provinces in Zambia. Cattle are transferred from Southern Province to the Central Province, Copperbelt Province and the Western Province. However, it has been a problem to do the same disease management in only one province in this country. This country has suffered a lot. That is why we have people who live in Matero comparing themselves to us and saying that each person has one cattle in our province.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the efforts he is making in the Southern Province where we have over two million heads of cattle. Obviously, he agrees with me that the Eastern Province comes second in terms of people and animals. I am sorry, Madam Speaker, to pose this question, but I think it is important. Why is he not applying the same effort in the Eastern Province that he is applying in Southern Province? I am not accusing him, but there has been no hon. Minister who has ever made that effort from 1980 to date.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I was responding in that fashion because the question was anchored on the Southern Province. As a country, we are putting in place measures to make sure that disease challenges that are faced by this country are put under control. We are doing everything in all the nine provinces and making sure that veterinary services are enhanced. Sometimes, it may take time for the hon. Member to start seeing the fruits, especially when we are trying to build a very good foundation. It might not be seen that we are doing something in all the provinces. However, as the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock, we are committed to making sure that disease issues in this country are put under control.

Madam, for example, in terms of supporting the staff, we have done this in all the nine provinces. For example, Madam Speaker, all our provincial veterinary staff in all the nine provinces have been given new Land Cruisers to support veterinary services. So, this means that the way we are servicing the Southern Province is the same way we are servicing the North Western Province, Luapula Province, the Eastern Province, Muchinga Province and the rest of the provinces. So, the assurance I to give the hon. Member is that as far as disease control is concerned, we will ensure it in the nine provinces.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, we have ten provinces in this country and not nine.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I was concentrating on nine provinces because we have one province which is disease-free. That is the reason I was concentrating only on nine provinces.

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Chikote: Is that procedural?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, wind up your response.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, the assurance I give to the hon. Member is that disease control will be done across the country because it is not about a province, but the entire country, to protect the industry so that our farmers in the nation could start competing at the international market.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONNECTION OF WARDS IN CHINSALI DISTRICT TO NATIONAL ELECTRICITY GRID

273. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) to ask the Minister of Energy:

(a)       whether the Government has any plans to connect the following areas in Chinsali District to the national electricity grid:

(i)        Nashinga in Lubwa Ward;

(ii)       Cheswa in Chambeshi Ward;

(iii)      Mwalule in Milemba Ward;

(iv)      Mbesuma in Itapa Ward;

(v)       Kalela in Itapa Ward;

(vi)      Chunga in Chunga Ward;

(vii)     Chilunda in Chilunda Ward; and

(viii)    Kalisha in Chilinda Ward;

(b)       if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(c)        if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala): Madam Speaker, I inform the House that yes, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), has plans to electrify the aforementioned areas in Chinsali District.

Madam Speaker, according to the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP), the above wards in Chinsali were scheduled to be electrified in 2021. The total cost of the project was estimated at K49 million. However, due to limited financing, the project was not implemented. It should be noted that REA will re-scope the area by the fourth quarter of this year to ascertain the cost of implementing the project.

Madam Speaker, the response to part (c) has been given in our response to part (a).

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his response, and I have heard that these areas were supposed to be connected to the national electricity grid in 2021, but due to inadequate resources, that was not possible, and, the ministry, through REA, is in the process of re-scoping the works. Now, in case the Government is not in a position to work on all the areas at once because, obviously, it is difficult to find the money at once, is it possible that it could put the works in a phased manner so that, maybe, by next year, we could connect two areas and the other year, another two, and after some time, say, in three to five years, we could have all the areas connected?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I do not think this is the time to start speculating whether the Government is going to have money. What we have indicated is that we are going to re-scope this project towards the end of this year, and come next year, we will be able to come up with a firm position on the matter.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, there is some amount of K1 million which is being deducted from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocation. Would this not help REA to expedite these works where the ministry has already done the feasibility studies? How will the ministry utilise that money if it cannot go to some of these projects?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I would encourage Chinsali District Council to liaise with REA so that it could use part of that K1million additional funding from the Constituency Development Fund (CFD).

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, the people of Chinsali need electricity like yesterday, according to the areas that have been tabulated in that question. Now, my question is: Has the ministry considered taking inventory of all the areas in Chinsali or, may I say, Zambia at large, so that it knows the areas which are not yet electrified and is able to come up with a model of Public-Private Partnership (PPP) in order that this issue of crying for electricity year in year out can come to an end?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, REA has produced a Master Plan on all projects that are pending and all projects that have been executed. As regards the use of the PPP model, whether it is feasible or not, I cannot say at the moment.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

MEASURES TO DISCOURAGE CHARCOAL BURNING IN PARTS OF MBABALA

274. Mr Munsanje (Mbabala) asked the Minister of Green Economy and Environment:

(a)        what measures the Government is taking to discourage charcoal burning in Mang’unza area and other parts of Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency in order to stop deforestation;

(b)        what alternative sources of energy are being promoted;

(c)        whether the alternative sources of energy are accessible, countrywide; and

(d)        what awareness programmes are being implemented to discourage charcoal burning.

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, the Government has engaged the communities in Mang’unza area, through the formation of forest groups, under the Forest Farm Facility Programme (FFFP). A number of sensitisation activities have been conducted in the past and such efforts shall continue not only in Mang’unza, but also in other parts of Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency to stop deforestation. The FFFP, which encourages the sustainable utilisation of forests, has also been launched in the area. Additionally, intensified patrols are being conducted to curb the unnecessary cutting down of trees.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Energy, which we are partnering with, has a robust programme of promoting alternatives to charcoal. One such method is the use of biogas digesters. This is being done in Kalomo, Mazabuka and Monze districts of the Southern Province. This programme can be scaled up using Constituency Development Funds support so that more districts can come on board. Additionally, the Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) is also one of the alternatives that are being promoted in peri-urban and urban areas countrywide.

Madam Speaker, some of the alternative sources that are accessible countrywide include biogas where over 5,000 digesters have been placed in many rural communities, especially in the Eastern and the Southern provinces. Solar energy use is also on the increase in many parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, has come up with a robust programme of raising awareness on the promotion of alternatives to charcoal. This is in addition to encouraging sustainable utilisation of forest resources. The strategy of reaching out to chiefs, who are the custodians of most of the forest resources, is key, as evidenced by the engagement with the House of Chiefs on charcoal issues during the last meeting.

Further, Madam Speaker, as a ministry, we have also increased the budgetary allocation by about 30 per cent in the 2023 Budget to the forest sector in order to enhance forest protection and management. Additionally, the Forest Development Fund has been operationalised, which is a demonstration of the Government’s commitment to ensuring forest restoration and protection.

Madam Speaker, my ministry was granted treasury authority to employ about thirty-five district forest officers and thirty-five senior technologists. Further, 229 community forest groups have been formed by the Forestry Department, across the country, to ensure wide stakeholder participation and ownership of the forest resources to ensure sustainability. The ministry is also collaborating with various partners; the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) on alternatives to charcoal; and other stakeholders to curb the problem of charcoal burning and forest degradation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. I noted that in his statement, he noticed that Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) could be an alternative. Now, if we look at the cost of LPG, it is, on average, about K35 per Kg, which translates into K175 per 5Kg. It is, actually, not very affordable for the average household. Does his ministry have plans to subsidise LPG as well as gadgets that are used with it so that it can encourage more to use LPG?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kasama Central for that very important question.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to alternatives to charcoal, there are many issues to consider. First of all, I think the main issue is accessibility and, secondly, the cost. We are working around these two main factors to ensure, obviously, that the costs are brought down. We are also looking at a mechanism to see what incentives we can bring on board to ensure that the alternatives are affordable. Further, I think a certain class of people who are able to afford the alternative source of energy mentioned earlier are already using it right now. Nonetheless, I agree with the hon. Member that for the lower income bracket, we really need to find cheaper alternatives.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I am very thankful to the hon. Minister for his very good response. He has talked about using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to take forward some of the measures. Has the ministry bothered to package how we can actually take this forward under the CDF, for example, accessing the Forest Development Fund to ensure that in areas where trees are being depleted, we can actually go back and replant them whilst utilising the alternatives the hon. Minister mentioned, like Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG), biogas and the like?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mbabala for that very important question. As I speak, we are working very closely with the Ministry of Technology and Science, under Hon. Mutati, to see what cheaper and more accessible products come on board. Indeed, we are also packaging something to see how the component of the CDF can be utilised in tree planting and, mainly, ensuring our people up their mitigation and adaptation measures.

Madam Speaker, remember, also, that in my earlier statement, I was clear that budgetary support to the forest sector has been increased by 30 per cent. Further, we have operationalised the Forest Development Fund. All these efforts are meant to ensure that we come up with a solution, basically, the alternative to charcoal.

Madam Speaker, indeed, this is a challenging problem. Charcoal is easily produced and distributed, but finding alternatives is what we are working on because they have to be cheaper and easily accessible.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, charcoal burning is, obviously, a scourge in this country. We saw, recently, some people, from Tanzania, arrested in the Central Province in a brutal way because they were charcoal burners. My question is: Even in Mbabala, what measures has the hon. Minister put in place? The majority of our rural communities have no idea about the concept of a green economy. Their livelihoods have always depended on charcoal. We know cutting down of trees is wrong, but what measures have been put in place to give them alternatives before they are arrested, in a brutal way? Are there means and ways in place to handle them in a humane way instead of arresting them when they have no idea that they are even committing a crime? They sponsor their families using the same charcoal that they sell. You arrest them and their children cannot go to school. So, what humane measures have been put in place whilst correcting this negative practice in our country of cutting down trees? What humane measures have been put in place to help charcoal burners who are not even aware that they are committing a crime?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero has basically said a lot of things, some of which I need to correct. One of them is that when the ministry was formed, we came up with what we call a Communication Advocacy Strategy to ensure that we educate our people on issues of climate change, so that we carry our people along. We believe that many Zambians, right now, are very well-informed.

Madam Speaker, further, I am sure we have all seen the effects of climate change, such as the unprecedented flooding in the Southern Province and other parts of the country. There were also unprecedented droughts. Just a few days ago, I issued a statement on the prevailing temperature conditions. The temperature right now, in June, is 2 degrees above the normal. All of these are things our people are experiencing. So, they are very much aware.

Madam Speaker, secondly, on the issue of foreigners, let me, actually, through this House, issue a very serious warning to foreigners, particularly from the country the hon. Member mentioned, that we will apply the law to the fullest. You may wish to note that charcoal burning is completely banned in certain neighbouring countries, yet they want to get charcoal from Zambia. We will apply the law to the fullest because the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015 is –

Interruptions

Eng. Nzovu: This man behind me is disturbing me, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us give chance to the hon. Minister to respond, especially that many people are listening to this programme.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, when you look at the alternatives, basically, they are about the livelihoods of our people. They depend on charcoal burning for their very livelihoods. One of the issues we are dealing closely with the Ministry of Agriculture is to ensure that we make agriculture a business. Most of our people depend on agriculture. We need to increase productivity per hectare and ensure that there is easy market access. We also have to ensure that the price is right. The hon. Minister of Agriculture announced a good price of K280 per 50 kg bag of maize. These are alternative livelihoods we want to promote for our people because it is a matter of livelihood, actually. So, that is what we are doing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. Charcoal is a major source of energy and finance for the low income brackets in this country and, terminating the use of charcoal means that we will disadvantage this group of people. However, my question is: What possibilities are there to plant tree species that could be used for charcoal?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chikankata for that very important question. One of the drivers of deforestation resulting from charcoal burning is the industrial use of this source of energy, particularly, in manganese processing. Various developers now have come to our offices to see how we can partner with them to come up with plantations, specifically to provide the necessary raw material for charcoal. Indeed, it is an alternative which we are looking at.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, the problem we are discussing here is not only peculiar to Mbabala. I think it is a countrywide problem, and I agree with the hon. Minister on the measures such as the formation of Community Forest Management (CFM) committees, which are a doing a good job.

Madam Speaker, for every problem, there is a source or cause. The problem we have now is basically because of a town called Lusaka and a township like Matero. It is where the demand for charcoal is. If we are to manage deforestation, we need to look at the alternatives, such as Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG).

Madam Speaker, if we look at the pricing per kg of gas today, it is expensive. That is because the Government is collecting Value Added Tax (VAT) on this product. Looking at the cylinder itself, it is expensive. From all that we need for us to see to it that we start protecting our forests, we are collecting taxes. Even on gas stoves, we are collecting taxes. That is really hampering the ministry’s effort to manage deforestation.

Madam Speaker, does the Government have any plans to see to it that we reduce taxes or give tax exemptions on those products so that we can promote the use of gas country wide? Firstly, to reduce taxes on gas is very important, and the rest will follow.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me thank the Nyimba Member of Parliament who is very knowledgeable in these matters, and whom I consult widely.

Madam Speaker, we are trying to come up with a product. Again, I must emphasise, which we want to be accessible and affordable to our people. We are putting up a product which we – We are in discussion with the Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr. Musokotwane, so that the product we are going to put out on the market can be affordable to people. So, I can only agree with the hon. Member’s suggestions that issues of tax exemptions and other incentives can be brought on board. So, once we are ready with this product and its cost implications, we will bring to this House, for debate, to see how we can move forward and resolve this very big problem of charcoal burning.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving a chance to the people of Lundazi to ask a follow up question to the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, it is sad that sometimes, African countries or underdeveloped countries are made to pay the price, yet the major contributors to depleting the ozone layer is mostly the developed countries. In terms of percentage, who are causing these challenges and what penalty is being given to the people who are very developed and continue to deplete the ozone layer unlike us who are suffering here in Mbabala and Lundazi? I submit.

The First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Green Environment, do you have a response to that?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I really do not have a response. What the hon. Member of Lundazi said is an addition. I completely agree with her that, indeed, developed countries have caused these problems. Nonetheless, I assure her that we are playing our part. As the Chairperson of the African Group of Negotiators, I am glad to inform the House that at the last Conference of the Parties (COP 27), Zambia, leading Africa, agreed with the international community that the issues of loss and damage as a result of the negative effect of climate change must be supported.

Madam Speaker, at that summit, a financial framework was agreed upon. So, we are looking forward to the COP 28 to ensure that what was agreed on at the COP 27 should start moving. Further, for climate finance, particularly for adaptation, there is an agreement with the international community, again. It has generally been agreed and recognised that developed countries have caused this problem and that they must do more. We are seeing a lot of efforts, even in this country. There is a lot of financial support for a lot of adaptation programmes. So, we will ask for more and, indeed, make the developed countries more accountable.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister is pushing this agenda, has he ever looked at the electricity tariff to see how costly it is? If he looked at the electricity tariff and reduced it, we would stop using charcoal. Is it just rhetoric that he has been told by people who are responsible because we are being funded? How are we going to achieve this? May the hon. Minister comment?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chipili for that very important question. Maybe, just to correct him, it is not the ministry that should be pushing this agenda. We should all be pushing it. Negative effects of climate change affect all of us despite where we sit. Climate change knows no boundaries and political affiliation. We must come together. My appeal is for the efforts we are making to ensure that we green our economy are supported by everybody in this House and in the country.

Madam Speaker, for increased tariffs, of course, any business has to be viable, but for those who cannot afford, I think the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services will tell you that the social protection for them is being increased.

Further, for us to ensure that our people, particularly in the rural areas where Hon. Kapala, the Minister of Energy, will tell you that the connectivity is low, the budgetary support to the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) has been increased. All these efforts, basically, are to ensure that we are connected, but the utilities; REA and ZESCO, are also viable.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I like the way the hon. Minister articulates issues to do with the environment. Permit me to use a graph.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, on the y axis, we have life and on the x axis, we have loss of income. Now, we can lose income if we zero rate or put duty free things like Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG), gas stoves, solar panels, solar lamps and all such things. If we allow all those things to come into this country with no tax at all, we are going to see that when we save life or save forests on the y axis, the quality of life will increase whilst we lose income on this other side.

Madam Speaker, is it not possible that one of the hon. Minister’s solutions can be a bill to bring a proposal to this House to ban the use of charcoal and ask the communities. With the intention of the Government, of course, to increase the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to 57 million in the nearest future, we can allow all our villagers who use charcoal to get an income from the CDF and all these other alternative livelihoods so that they have nothing to do with charcoal and we save forests to save life. Meanwhile, our Government can make duty free the importation of those things.

The First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question?

Mr Katakwe: The questions is: Is it possible to lose a bit of income and make sure that all these facilities come into the country duty free so we can ban the use of charcoal, save the forests and save life? Is it possible to come up with such a Bill?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, the use of graphs is key in explaining some of these things, particularly, for us engineers.

Madam Speaker, banning charcoal production and use is really a subject matter which we will bring to this House for debate one of these days because we believe that it has worked quite well in other countries. However, for us, we are trying to ensure that we bring alternatives first before the complete ban. Further, we will bring the Forest Act No.4 of 2015 for revision in this House. At that time, we will be very glad to receive submissions on one hand and support on the other.

Further, Madam Speaker, let me take advantage of that question to also explain that we are trying to see that there are gains, and gains quickly, again, when we bring the Climate Change Bill on the Floor of this House, to ensure that our people make gains from carbon trading. I think carbon trading will be one of the solutions to this scourge.

Madam Speaker, further, I appeal to this House, as I have done many times before, and, today, I will be a bit more direct. The ministry is requesting that these plastic bottles here, which we stock, as parliamentarians, leaders and law makers, we stop using them because plastic pollution has become a scourge which has polluted our streams and clogged our rivers. It is one of the biggest challenges we face now. So, I ask my fellow hon. Members of Parliament that we agree to stop the use of plastic bottles, forthwith.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: We will support you!

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, the issue of deforestation is not a huge challenge only in Mang’unza and parts of Mbabala Constituency. I am alive to the fact that the hon. Minister’s forestry officers face a number of logistical challenges. The forestry officers in Mbabala, do they have adequate transport so that they are able to effectively police our forests?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for bringing up this very important question. To the hon. Members of Parliament, let me state very clearly that that question was loaded. I have appealed, obviously, to my hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, that more funding is allocated to the ministry because the challenges are big.

Madam Speaker, you will recall that when Zambia was experiencing many challenges in the past from the Structural Adjustment Programme (SAP), many foresters were laid off. There has been very little support to the forestry sector. I think this is a challenge we should openly look at and see that there is more budgetary support. The forestry sector has a huge potential to contribute to the growth of the GDP of this country, once supported. So, we can only appeal for more budgetary support and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has assured me of the same.

Madam Speaker, I want to agree with the hon. Member that, indeed, logistical challenges are there; no vehicles, no offices and no manpower, but we believe that we will overcome this challenge, and the Government will ensure that the forestry sector is supported.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we have to make progress.

REHABILITATION OF POLICE CAMP IN KALABO DISTRICT

275. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the police camp in Kalabo District, which is in a dilapidated state;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. when the police camp was last rehabilitated.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, in response to the questions asked by the hon. Member of Parliament, I wish to state that the Government has plans to rehabilitate the police camp in Kalabo District.

Madam Speaker, plans will be implemented when funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, the police camp has never been rehabilitated from the time it was built in 1970.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the response given by the hon. Minister that there is a provision for renovations. However, on the issue of resources, yes, there is that issue of challenges in resources, but a journey of 1,000 kilometres begins with one step. What immediate short step can the ministry put in place just to start that rehabilitation in a small way?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the immediate solution to the dilapidated infrastructure in Kalabo Police Station is to be considered under the plan which we have, and I am going to state. The ministry has plans to construct eighty-nine new housing units. This process is under consideration. Once the funds are made available, we will not embark on rehabilitation, but construction of new houses in Kalabo.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister runs one of the biggest ministries in this country. His response “When resources are available” does not hold water on this particular issue.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: The hon. Minister, to follow and abduct people, uses fuel, which is not for free.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: It is bought using tax payers’ money, but the people of Kalabo should be told, “When resources are available.” The hon. Minister knows pretty well that he is part and parcel of those who approve the Budget in this country, in this House. He knows very well that they are buying vehicles without the consent of Ward Development Committees (WDCs) for the police in our respective constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: I suspect that this decency would have allowed you to say the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) should be used for such an important –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question?

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Does the hon. Minister not think that the way he has made a resolution to use the CDF to procure vehicles for the police without the consent of WDCs, is the same way he could have acted for the people of Kalabo?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, allow me to respond comprehensively to the issues that have been raised by the hon. Member. Otherwise, it will not be fair on our part, as the Government, and the people listening out there, as pertains to the allegations he has made.

Number one, I repeat, no person or hon. Member of Parliament has ever been abducted by the police in this country. That is a fact, and anyone can verify that. If anyone was abducted, abduction is a criminal offence. If anyone was abducted, let him/her report the matter to the police …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … or commence private prosecution against the abductor. That is what the law of this country states.

Number two, Madam Speaker, is that I have just noted that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi, and the people of Lumezi are listening, does not want new police vehicles which we are procuring in order that we can provide security for the people of Zambia and those in Lumezi.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Madam Speaker, number three is that the hon. Member of Parliament knows that the jurisdiction to determine what should be used is with the Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDF), to which hon. Members of Parliament are members. If the committee wants, it can utilise this funding to rehabilitate the houses in Kalabo. However, I have provided an alternative where we have agreed that once the monies are released, we will build eighty-nine houses in Kalabo Central, which is good for the officers who are residing in condemned houses there. That is what we are offering and this is the best for the policemen and women in Kalabo Central. I have no doubt that my good friend, the hon. Member, is very happy with what I have said.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Madam Speaker, are there any plans by this committed Government, the New Dawn Government, to be doing periodic maintenance to this public infrastructure other than wait for it to become dilapidated?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we do have funding, although it is not adequate to rehabilitate the entire dilapidated infrastructure in this country. It is public knowledge that most public buildings in this country are dilapidated and the Zambia Police Service infrastructure is not an exception. There are certain places where we have undertaken the process of rehabilitation, but it is a process. I cannot make an assurance that there is enough money. We do not have enough money.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu. I have followed all his answers and the good questions posed by hon. Colleagues.

Madam Speaker, building houses and police stations is one process and takes a while, as in Kalabo Central. In other areas, structures are already there. The buildings are there and, maybe, it is just one cable remaining to be mixed. For example, Mwembeshi Police Station in Matero, for eight months, has just been waiting for launching.

Madam Speaker, are any plans to launch Mwembeshi Police Station in Matero any time soon?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero Constituency and the incoming President of a certain party that our Government is going to do everything possible to ensure that Mwembeshi Police Station is opened. We also want to appreciate what the hon. Member has done for the people of Matero. He is a good leader. I think they will vote for him, those in his party.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: On a lighter moment.

TARRING OF MPOROKOSO/NSAMA/NSUMBU ROAD

276. Mr Elias Musonda (Chimbamilonga) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. whether the Government has any plans to tar the Mporokoso/Kaputa/Nsama/Nsumbu road in the Northern province;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented;
3. what the estimated cost of the project is;
4. what the estimated time-frame for the completion of the project is; and
5. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Speaker, the Government certainly has plans to upgrade to bituminous standard the Mporokoso/Kaputa/Nsama/Nsumbu Road in the Northern Province.

Madam Speaker, the plans will be implemented once the designs of the required works have been completed and the funds for the works are secured.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of the project will only be known once the designs have been completed.

Madam Speaker, the estimated time-frame for the completion of the project will be known once the designs are completed. As such, question (e) fails off.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Elias. M. Musonda: Madam Speaker, when will these designs be completed?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, the project for the preparation of detailed designs for the upgrade to bituminous standards of the Mporokoso/Kaputa/Nsama/Nsumbu Road in the Northern Province has been included in the 2023 Road Sector Annual Work Plan. There is already an allocation of K5 million for that purpose. So, definitely, it is underway.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, including an activity in an annual plan is not executing it. The question is: Has the Government started to undertake the activity of coming up with these designs? If so, when are the designs going to be finished?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, the tender for the engagement of the consultant to prepare the designs is definitely ongoing. This tender was actually floated back on 9^th November, 2022, and closed on 16^th December, 2022. The process has started.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Elias M. Musonda: Madam Speaker, currently, there are very bad stretches along this road, especially the stretch from Mporokoso Boma going towards Chimbamilonga. There is also the Makankata Hill, which is in a deplorable state, and so many other spots. What are the immediate remedial measures he is going to take to sort out these issues?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I do appreciate the state of the Mporokoso Boma section up to Makankata Hill. Suffice it to say that through the Road Development Agency (RDA), efforts may have to be made to, at least, alleviate, in whatever way possible, the currently bad state. We have to see whether something can be done about it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister, earlier on, on the Floor of this House, say that the Government does not lie. So, I am just wondering because the same Government also promised Chienge Constituency a road. However, from 2022 to date, there has been nothing. So, now, I am wondering how this Government, which has said that there are no new projects, is going to start to work on other roads. I am not against Mporokoso. I should declare interest because I am half Tabwa and half Bwile and that is partly my place as well.

Madam Speaker, how is it possible that this is going to take place when there is also a pronouncement of not starting new projects?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, in answering that question, let me take advantage and state that the problems that we face, together, as a country, particularly in infrastructure, is well known to all of us. This is a problem that, as a Government, we would like to address. The huge debt mountain that we are sitting with has, no doubt, reduced the fiscal space to allow the Government to attend to this infrastructure. We are currently undertaking a rigorous process of negotiating with our creditors in a debt restructuring process. This is a clarion call to hon. Members of the Opposition to rally behind the Government and ensure that that debt burden is lifted so that, once again, we may have that required fiscal space to attend to the many infrastructural challenges that this country is facing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I note the passion with which the hon. Minister is responding to these difficult questions.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister informed the House on the procurement of consultants to do the designs and that the tender process closed in December 2022. These consultants are yet to be procured. Now, if you look at the order of events, let us say, sometime this year, the consultant is procured, he/she may take a year plus to come up with the designs. So, is it safe for us to conclude that we may not have a bituminous standard road between Mporokoso and Nsama in the next three years?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, since the commencement of the evaluation, back in February this year, the second stage of the evaluation is currently ongoing, and it is envisaged that the design consultants will be engaged before the end of the third quarter of this year. So, I suggest that, perhaps, we cross that bridge when we get there.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order. Hon. Member for Lunte, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the hon. Minister on the Floor of the House. The questions that we ask hon. Ministers are provided for in the Standing Orders. The hon. Minister is obliged to answer questions from Members so that the people that hon. Members represent can get assurance from the Executive in respect of subjects at hand.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge asked the hon. Minister a very clear question. There is a pronouncement that this Government will not start new projects, yet the hon. Minister is giving assurance on the Floor of the House that this project will be done. So, let the hon. Minister clarify how it is going to be possible that this project will be done when, in fact, the Government is saying no new projects will be undertaken. What does the hon. Minister do? In full view of this House and the general public, he starts to lecture the House on the debt mountain. What is the relevance of the debt mountain to finding out the contradictory policy statements from the Government?

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: I ride on Standing Order No. 65.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Lunte.

I think what I am going to do, since the hon. Minister is still on the Floor, is that I will ask him, if he omitted to answer a question, to combine the response with that of the next question.

 

Hon. Minister, there was a question by the hon. Member for Chienge. She indicated that the Government announced that it was not going to initiate new projects. However, in your response, you gave an assurance that the Government was going to do the works. So, hon. Members would like to know where you stand. Is the Government initiating new projects or it is going to finish off existing projects?

I am going to allow the hon. Member for Kafue to ask a question, and then the Acting hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development will combine the responses.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, indeed, you have made a good decision because my question was along the same lines. I was going to ask which Vote the Minister would use to work on the Kasama/Nsumbu Road so that we can also explore that window for places like Shantumbu in Kafue, which are equally bad.

Otherwise, I agree by way of a comment. As a Committee, we were privileged to use the road in question in the recent parliamentary tours. Indeed, it is in a very terrible state, yet it leads to Kasaba Bay and all the places we want to develop for tourism purposes.

I thought I should, say that.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I responded to the hon. Member for Chienge, perhaps not so much in a direct way. She gave a position as to the Government having committed or promised, to use her words, to working on the road in her area. If that does not happen, the promise still stands. This is why I then diverted to generalise as to what is obtaining in this country; the inability of the Government to martial the necessary resources. I made reference to the debt mountain.

Madam Speaker, as far as the hon. Member for Lunte is concerned, much as I appreciate that questions are provided for in the Standing Orders, so are answers provided to us by our technocrats. We are giving a position from the Government with no amount of persuasion. We are giving the facts as they stand. That is what we are here for .So, no amount of politicking to draw us into rumours and innuendoes would dissuade us from giving the right position, which is attributable to the administration that has gone before us.

Madam Speaker, as far as the hon. Member for Kafue is concerned, may I advise her to perhaps use another channel to throw in a question for a more detailed response.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order. Hon. Member for Chienge, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I thank you for this privilege. The hon. Minister on the Floor has not answered my question. The question was: Has the Government changed its position? The Government said there would be no new projects, but we hear of new projects and adverts that are done. I gave an example of the Kashikishi/Lunchinda Road, the most political road in this country. It has not been done because there are no new projects, as there is no money. Despite the pronouncement, there are new projects. That was my question. The Government says there are no new projects to be undertaken, but now we hear about new projects. Could the hon. Minister, please, answer that simple question? He has not answered my question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: From the response that the hon. Member gave out, he mentioned that he had responded, somehow, to your question. We do not know whether after giving him a second chance, he answered that question, again, in full. He said that he touched on that question you raised, the question that I, actually, repeated, on your behalf, to him. So, are you satisfied or the hon. Minister did not answer? He, however, said that he answered.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, he did not answer. The question was that had the Government changed the policy? It says no new projects, yet we hear of a new project. That was my question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, in simple terms, or, maybe, for all the hon. Members to get the response over that, please, repeat the response.

Mr Tayali: I respond to that direct question, Madam Speaker, that the Government has not changed its position.

I thank you.

CONSTRUCTION OF MAIZE AND SOYA BEAN SHELTERS IN MWASE CHIEFDOM IN LUNDAZI

277. Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi) asked the Minister of Agriculture:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct maize and soya beans storage shelters in Mwase Chiefdom in Lundazi Parliamentary Constituency;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. if there are no such plans, why.

Mr Mtolo (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is an indication for a point of order. Hon. Member for Pambashe, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, this is Parliament, where we must be factual about the information we churn out, more so if the information is coming from the Executive. My point of order is on the hon. Acting Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Urban Development. I think the Road Development Agency (RDA), if officials are here, is listening. The road project he said had been advertised was contracted to China State Construction and Engineering Corporation Limited (CSCEC), and when the United Party for National Development (UPND) took over power, it cancelled that project with the understanding that it would not be able to take on anymore projects. Now, the project was contracted, and the contractor was on site, but the Government came and cancelled it. Today, the hon. Minister can come and mislead the entire country that the Government is going to advertise for another study, a study that was undertaken before the road project was advertised.

Was the hon. Minister, truly, Madam Speaker, in order to give false information to this august House when the substantive order came here, and he made the announcement that the Government had cancelled that road project because it was no longer taking on anymore projects? Today, he says that the Government is advertising for a study.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I reserve my ruling so that I look into that issue comprehensively. I will come, at a later stage, to give a ruling.

May the hon. Minister of Agriculture continue.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), has developed a Storage Investment Plan to guide investment in storage facilities. The goal of the plan is to increase the storage capacity from the current 956,950 metric tonnes to, at least, 2 million metric tonnes of secure storage space. Through this plan, Mwase Chiefdom, in Lundazi, will be considered.

Madam Speaker, the implementation of the storage investment plan is an ongoing process guided by availability of resources. Therefore, for part (c), as indicated above, the Government has plans in place.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, this question is on the storage of soya bean in Mwase Chiefdom in Lundazi. Soya bean, as we know, is critical to this country. Not only does it feed human beings, but also livestock. It is also used to produce things like soy milk, tofu, soy sauce and sausage. For most of the sausage, we get gong’ad; there is soya it and huge protein contents.

Madam Speaker, is there any consideration, instead of just setting up storage where soya bean is produced, to produce it where the market is, in Lusaka, even for export? There is so much land in Lusaka, especially in Kafue area where there are areas like Lukolongo in Kapongo and near Sondela. Are there any chances of putting up storage facilities in that area, and even in other provinces, for soya bean, so that it is easily exportable?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Parliament for Matero, this is a constituency based question talking about storage sheds in Lundazi. So, please, if you have similar questions or questions which you feel are very important and might be related to this issue of storage sheds for Lusaka, I think you can come up with a separate question. As at now, we are looking at Lundazi where there is a problem. I think the hon. Member is eager to hear what will be done for Lundazi.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the general answer that the hon. Minister has given that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) is in the process of increasing space and that, definitely, the Government has to look at coming up with a shed.

Madam Speaker, the distance from Lundazi Boma to Mwase at Gumbilwe is over 60 km. The cheaper maize which we are selling during this time, at the Boma, the people from Gumbilwe and Nangwe in Mwase area are unable to purchase it. How soon does the hon. Minister think the Government can come up with a shed in Mwase area, so that the people can also partake in the good policies of selling cheaper maize by the FRA?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I have heard the seriousness of the position which the hon. Member has given. As indicated, this is driven by the availability of resources. However, from what the hon. Member said, the Government can actually look at the possibility of a privately developed storage facility which the agency can rent for that particular purpose because 60 km is quite some distance. So, that is something that the Government should look at and definitely resolve.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu Madam Speaker, it is good that the Government has plans to construct new sheds in Lundazi. I cannot lecture him on the Eastern Province because he knows that Lundazi and the surrounding districts that have come out of it are the major producers of maize in the Eastern Province. Yes, I agree that it may be seconded by Petauke.

Madam Speaker, the issue of sheds in the Eastern Province is something that the hon. Minister knows about. As the ministry is planning to construct new sheds, there is also a Government position that it is not going to start new projects. There is project in Nyimba, which the hon. Minister is very much aware of, where two sheds were paid for, but have not yet been constructed.

The Government grabbed one shed from us and gave it to Petauke, which means that Nyimba has no storage facilities, just like Lundazi. The question is: When is the ministry going to procure storage facilities in Lundazi, because this is a matter of emergency? It is not something that the ministry is going to do tomorrow or the other day. It is very important. The hon. Minister agrees with me that half the maize now is coming from the Eastern Province and a good amount of it is going to be wasted. When does he think we can procure the sheds? We have failed to complete the ones we started as early as 2018 and 2019, when the money was paid. So, my question to the hon. Minister is very simple. When is the ministry going to start working on this project? We are not going to have the answer “We will start tomorrow” when he and I know that it is a matter of emergency for Lundazi.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, let me start by correcting an impression which could circulate and create anxieties.

Madam Speaker, the FRA has been looking after our maize exceptionally well. There is less than 1 per cent spoilage of the maize that it buys. So, if there are areas where maize is getting spoiled, I would be very happy, as the person responsible for agriculture, to know because I could not be everywhere. So far, the record we have is that the agency is looking after the maize very well. The maize that is mostly in the Eastern Province is actually maize from the 2021 Farming Season and is still exceptionally good maize.

Madam Speaker, having said that, hon. Members heard me say that the Government of the Republic of Zambia does not do everything on its own. This Government is private sector driven. If there are people who have storage facilities, we can use those storage facilities. This is the answer I gave to the hon. Member. I said that if there is that problem, let us go for privately owned storage facilities which are available and hire them, even if they are small, especially for the distribution of maize in times of hunger. We can definitely hire or rent a structure for use.

Madam, coming to the sheds which he was talking about which are incomplete, I think the hon. Member is aware that there is a dispute on those facilities between the Government and whoever was contracted to build them. There are issues which did not go well in the previous Government and they are continuing in court and being looked after. So, I would not like to comment on that because I am not competent to do so.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I must mention that Mwase/Lundazi and Mwasempangwe, in Lumezi are like siamese twins because these two chiefdoms share similar names.

Madam Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Minister has said he is not omnipresent, which I appreciate. Now, does he not think that it is time the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) decided to go through a Public-Private Partnership (PPP) arrangement when it comes to the building of sheds? Why I ask this question is that this is an income generating venture as in his submissions, for the people of Lundazi and other areas that could be interested. The ministry would have done a better service because it would bring in entrepreneurial minds to be interested. By leaving a statement open that we can rent any facility no matter how small it is, I think, we shall not attain the desired results. Why does the hon. Minister not think that this is where the country genuinely needs a PPP project unlike where we are seeing it, like on the Ndola Dual Carriage Way, because there are financial returns immediately?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I think the Public-Private (PPP) is something which we never looked at. It is a good suggestion. We will try and see how it can be done. Hon. Members are aware that the FRA is responsible for managing the Government redeemable assets, and if we talk of PPP, it is a new area which we need to explore.

Madam Speaker, let me encourage hon. Members in the House that the storage shed business is very profitable and they should seriously consider investing in those facilities. They are easy to construct. It could be a bit expensive, but the return on the investment is very high. So, it is something which, as private individuals, we can seriously look, at across the country.

Madam Speaker, we will explore the PPP suggestion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, the people of Lundazi would like to know how many storage shelters will be constructed in Mwase Chiefdom.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, let me reduce the anxieties of the hon. Member who has asked the question. Of most of the districts in the Eastern Province, Lundazi has very good storage capacity, but, as indicated, it is also a very high producing area. The particular constituency or particular area which Hon. Nyirenda asked for, as I indicated, will be considered, given the exposure that it has received. However, for me to stand and say we are going to construct next year, I would be quoted by the Committee on Government Assurances and I will fail to validate it if we do not do it. The resourses are simply not there. However, the good news is that we are receiving co-operating partners who would like to invest in this sector. So, that is why we will consider Mwase, where the hon. Member is, so that we see if we can give the people some facility to use, given the distance that is there to the main storage centres.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for his response. The people of Lundazi, just like their counterparts in Chama, contribute hugely to the food basket in this country. Looking at the urgency of this matter, because every year, farmers will be increasing their hectarage, is the ministry not considering bringing a Supplementary Budget so that it can construct storage facilities in Mwase?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I think I can discuss that with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I am happy to let the hon. Member know that the Cabinet has indicated that once we are through with the issue of the debt problem, and we have a little bit of resources coming in, agriculture is going to be considered a priority and, therefore, the suggestions that he has given will be looked into. That is what I would say.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mabonga: On a point of order.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is an indication for a point of order. The Hon. Member for Mfuwe, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the hon. Minister. I feel that he did not attend to my question. I think he might have misunderstood it. My question was: How many storage sheds is the FRA planning to construct?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, although that is not a point of order, I will ask the hon. Minister to go back to that question as he responds to the question from the hon. Member for Chilubi.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, observing the trends of the 2021/2022 and 2022/2023 farming seasons, the ministry has been reducing the number of depots. For me, it beats logic that the hon. Minister is talking about increasing the number from 9,000 to 2 million. That also includes Lundazi because it is countrywide. So, how is the ministry going to balance the reducing of the depots verses the storage?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Agriculture, please do not forget the other question.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will start with the response to the question from the hon. Member for Chilubi –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1912 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 8^th June, 2023.

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