Wednesday, 29th March, 2023

Wednesday, 29^thMarch, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, MRS NALUMANGO, ON SALARIES FOR COUNCILLORS AND CHIEFS COUNTRYWIDE

Madam Speaker: I have seen one indication of a matter of urgent public importance.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. This matter is directed at the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Jamba: Why are you shouting?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am asking for your protection because when I respond –

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, last year, we passed a Motion on councilors and chiefs, countrywide. In wards in Petauke, Kazungula, Solwezi and Chama, there are four councillors who have been sick and they do not have money to go to the hospital to get medication.

Madam Speaker, last year, we approved a Motion that councillors and chiefs countrywide should be put on salaries, instead of allowances which they are getting currently. If we continue to delay putting these people on salaries, they will continue dying because they cannot afford to buy medicine. We lost one of the councillors on the Copperbelt because –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

From what I am hearing, that matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Please follow-up with the relevant authorities. So, your matter is not admitted.

Hon. Members, at the time that I allowed this matter, there was only one indication of a matter of urgent public importance. I am sure if you have looked at the Order Paper, you have noted that we have a lot of work to do today. So, for these matters that were submitted later after I had announced, hon. Members for Kasenengwa and Kawambwa, you should find other means to raise your matters.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

PERFORMANCE OF THE ECONOMY AS AT 31^ST JANUARY, 2023

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to brief the House on the state of the economy. Allow me to begin by reaffirming this House that our ambition as a nation remains that of achieving medium-term targets of providing economic opportunities to all Zambians and becoming a middle-income country that is at the forefront of supporting the global energy transition and food security. In this regard, my reflections this afternoon will be in the context of how developments in the global and domestic economies have affected the Zambian economy as at 31^st January, 2023.

Development in the Global Economy

Madam Speaker, growth in the global economy, according to the world economic outlook, is projected to decline to 2.9 percent in 2023, from an estimated 3.4 percent in 2022. This is on account of the tighter monetary policy to rein in inflation and the Russia-Ukraine conflict, which has continued to have an impact on economic activities. The resurgence of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic in China amidst the lockdown policies dampened growth in 2022. However, we believe though that China’s gradual reopening is expected to speed up economic recovery.

Madam Speaker, the spillover from the Russia-Ukraine war has led to supply-side disruptions, which include an increase in prices of critical commodities such as petroleum products and fertilisers. The average crude oil price in the first half of 2022 rose to US$l04.97 per barrel from US$69.00 per barrel recorded during the same period in 2021. This led to higher domestic petroleum pump prices, with the diesel price peaking at K28.01 per litre in July. Similarly, the international price of fertiliser, as measured by the fertilisers price index, increased by 60.5 per cent per metric tonne between August, 202l and August, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the Government continues to implement a cost reflective policy for petroleum pricing, bearing in mind that we do not have control over the international oil prices. To this effect, there have been adjustments on the fuel pump prices on a monthly basis, in line with the defined criteria. Further, to reflect costs and in order to reduce transportation costs of bringing in diesel, work on converting the pipeline has just been concluded so that diesel comes by pipeline.

Madam Speaker, at its fourth special meeting, Cabinet resolved that the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) migrates to a cost-effective and enhanced electronic agro-input system beginning from the 2022/2023 Agriculture Season. However, the Russia-Ukraine conflict greatly affected the supply of fertiliser on the world market and caused a drastic increase in prices. The implementation of an electronic agro-input system would require the private sector to take upfront risks of importing fertiliser and stocking it in various outlets countrywide. This posed a threat of non-supply of fertiliser to the farmers, as huge financial resources were required by the private sector to mobilise the required quantities.

Madam Speaker, despite the disruptions in the supply chain of fertiliser on the global market due to the war in Eastern Europe, the Government remains steadfast that the sustainable solution is for the country to produce enough stocks of the commodity through the promotion of private sector participation. In addition, the Government is optimistic that the long-term sustainable path for the agro-sector is a reform of FISP, including migrating to the Electronic-Voucher (e-Voucher) system, and more comprehensive farmer support such as scaling up extension services.

Madam Speaker, taking into consideration the impact of the global economy on our national economy, the Government will continue monitoring global events and will boldly take the necessary measures required to cushion the impact of events on the economy and the well-being of the Zambian people.

Development in Domestic Economy

Inflation

Madam Speaker, annual inflation, as measured by the consumer price index (CPI), was recorded at 9.4 per cent in January, 2023, signaling continued deceleration or reduction in the average increase of prices of goods and services. Inflation was recorded at 15.1 per cent in January, 2022, and closed the year at 9.9 percent in December, 2022. On an annual basis, inflation averaged 22.1 per cent and 11.1 per cent in 2021 and 2022, respectively.

Madam Speaker, the continued slowdown in the inflation rate as at January, 2023, was attributed to movements in prices of food and non-food items and the base effect. The appreciation of the Kwacha in 2022 was also among the drivers for the slowdown in inflation. Risks to positive movements in inflation were identified and include:

tighter global financial conditions;
spillover effects from the global economy owing to the war in the Eastern Europe;
impact of load shedding on economic activity and an increase in energy costs; and
resurgence of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Exchange Rate

Madam Speaker, in January, 2023, the Kwacha traded at an average of K18.52 per US$1, in comparison to an average of K17.26 per US$1 in the corresponding period of 2022. The Kwacha appreciated against the US Dollar by an average of l5.1 per cent in 2022. The Kwacha traded at an average of K16.94 in 2022 from K19.95 in 2021. This was attributed to higher inflows from non-resident investors in government paper, positive market sentiments built on the expectations and eventual allocations of the Special Drawing Rights (SDR) permitted by Zambia’s admittance on the International Monetary Fund (IMF) Extended Credit Facility.

Madam Speaker, in the fourth quarter of 2022, the procurement of agricultural and petroleum products as well as drugs in the health sector began to put pressure on the Kwacha. This, compounded with significantly lower supply of foreign exchange, has attributed to the weakening of the Kwacha. To address the volatility in the exchange rate and safeguard the stability of the foreign exchange market, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) raised the minimum reserve ratio on both local and foreign currency deposits. The BoZ also provided US$1.6 billion in 2022 to the market, primarily from mining tax receipts, which amounted to US$1.4 billion in 2022.

Madam Speaker, average interest rates for lending remained high in 2022. This, defined as the price paid for borrowing, affects economic activity by raising the marginal cost of financing.

Gross Domestic Product Growth

Madam Speaker, the gross domestic product (GDP) growth for 2022 is expected to continue on a positive trajectory, although at a slower pace of 3.1 per cent from 4.6 per cent recorded in 2021. Over the first three quarters of 2022, growth has largely been driven by the transport, tourism, wholesale and retail and Information and Communication Technology (ICT) sectors.

Madam Speaker, the domestic economy grew by 2.3 percent in the first quarter, 3.4 percent in the second quarter, and 5.3 per cent, giving on average of 3.6 percent. This, however, is lower than the 4.5 per cent recorded over the same period in 2021. The negative performance of the mining, agriculture and construction sectors, coupled with the negative impact of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, especially on the fuel subsector, subdued growth.

Madam Speaker, growth in 2023 is projected at 5.4 per cent, premised on improvements in the macroeconomic environment resulting from Zambia’s admission to the IMF Extended Credit Facility. Further, a recovery in input prices and implementation of a much more efficient input support programme in the agricultural sector and further investments in mining and manufacturing are expected to drive growth. However, there are risks and these include the following:

continued negative impact of the war in the Eastern Europe;
tighter monetary policies in most economies;
China’s zero COVID-19 policy, although that has now been unwound;
weaker copper prices; and
exchange rate fluctuations.

Madam Speaker, let me now say something about the Budget, starting with the revenue.

Budget

Revenue

Madam Speaker, during the period under review, total collections of revenues and grants amounted to K9.2 billion and were 13 per cent below the target of K10.4 billion. Tax revenue accounted for K8 billion, and non-tax revenue was K1.2 billion.

Madam Speaker, getting deeper into the tax issues, income tax collections amounted to K4.9 billion, against a target of K6.2 billion and was off target by 21 per cent. The underperformance was mainly attributed to lower than anticipated provisional tax declarations by the mining companies.

Madam Speaker, company tax collected amounted to K2.2 billion, against the target of K3.7 billion. Mining tax amounted to K662 million and was below the target of K2.3 billion. Non-mining tax collections amounted to Kl.6 billion, against the target of Kl.3 billion. Pay-as-you-earn (PAYE) amounted to Kl.7 billion, against the target of Kl.8 billion. Other income tax collections, such as withholding tax, collections amounted to K993 million, against the target of K847 million.

Madam Speaker, value added tax (VAT) collections amounted to K2.09 billion, against a target of K2.05 billion and this was above target by 2 per cent, mainly due to over collections on import VAT. Insurance premium levy collections amounted to K23.1 million, against a target of K12.3 million.

Madam Speaker, customs and excise duty were above target by 3 per cent with a collection of K985.6 million, against a target of K953.3 million. Export duties recorded a collection of K7.5 million, against a target of K4.3 million, and non-tax revenue was Kl.2 billion, against a target of K1.1 billion.

Madam Speaker, on grants, in January, 2023, nothing was received from co-operating partners, against a target of K142.1 million.

Expenditure

In terms of expenditure, Madam Speaker, during the month of January, 2023, the Government released K12.4 billion to finance public service delivery. Of this amount, K3.6 billion was released for the public service wage bill while K3.5 billion was spent on debt service, both domestic and external. Releases to transfer subsidies and social benefits amounted to K2.4 billion.

Madam Speaker additionally, the Government released K2.4 billion for the implementation of various government programmes and general operations. Let me say a bit more about some of these expenditure items starting with the wage bill. The Government spent a total of K3.6 billion on costs relating to the public service wage bill for various public service workers, including health, teaching, and security personnel.

Madam Speaker, under debt and other liabilities, in line with the Government’s commitment to reduce its indebtedness, a total of K3 billion was released in the month of January, 2023, towards the payment of both domestic and external debt to multilateral institutions. The Treasury further released K464 million towards the dismantling of arrears relating to suppliers of goods and services, and fuel.

Details on Transfers and Subsidies

Madam Speaker, the Government released a total of K2.4 billion towards transfers and subsidies. Notable expenditures included the following:

K635 million was released for the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF);
K428 million for grants to schools to support the free education policy;
K342 million for the operations of hospitals and grant-aided institutions in Government ministries;
K218 million, almost K218 million, for secondary schools and skills development bursary component under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF);
K210 million for Social Cash Transfer (SCT);
K188 million to the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA);
K115 million for university operations;
K111.6 million for the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF); and
K100 million for the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF).

Madam Speaker, under general operations, the Government released K2.4 billion to facilitate service delivery under various Government institutions, and notable among those were as follows:

K1.8 million for general operations of Government ministries;
K436.7 million for the procurement of drugs, medical supplies and equipment;
K4 million for the Lands Titling Project.

Capital Expenditure

Madam Speaker, the Government released a sum of K524.8 million towards capital projects. Of this amount, K304 million was spent on road infrastructure while the balance of K221.2 million went towards water and edification infrastructure projects.

Debt

Madam Speaker, the stock of external debt, excluding publicly guaranteed debt, as at December, 2022, stood at US$13.96 billion, representing a 7.04 per cent increase from US$13.04 billion at the end of 2021. The increase in the external debt stock can be attributed to continued disbursement of existing project loans mostly from multilateral institutions and bilateral creditors to finance ongoing priority projects. The public guaranteed debt was US$1.45 billion as at end of December, 2022, declining by 5.14 per cent from the December, 2021 amount.

Madam Speaker, arising from unsustainable debt levels and commencement of the debt restructuring process, the ministry has continued to implement the debt service stand still to all creditors with the exception of multilateral creditors and priority projects. In this regard, US$130.8 billion was paid as debt service as at the end of December, 2022. The debt service standstill also led to 46.9 per cent increase in central Government arrears to external creditors to US$4.06 billion, being principal and interest as at the end of December, 2022, compared to US$2.16 billion recorded at the end of December, 2021.

Madam Speaker, the ministry has also continued to engage Zambia’s external creditors in an effort to restructure Zambia’s unsustainable debt. This is being done under the G20 Common Framework under which official creditors have formed the official creditors’ committee to find a solution to Zambia’s debt. In parallel, the ministry has also continued engagement with private creditors to advance the debt restructuring process.

Domestic Debt

Madam, the stock of government securities increased by 9 per cent to K210 billion at the end of December, 2022, from K193 billion at the end of 2021. The performance of Government securities market during the year was relatively unstable with better participation observed in periods surrounding the announcement related to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) programme. However, quarter two saw a reduction in demand, especially for short-term securities due to tight liquidity conditions and uncertainty in the market regarding the IMF programme. As at the end September, 2022, domestic arrears stood at K55.4billion from K59.5 billion as at the end of December, 2021. The reduction in arrears is attributed to the ongoing efforts by the Government to liquidate accrued domestic arrears, in line with the domestic arrears dismantling strategy. When there are personal emoluments-related arrears, electricity and value added tax (VAT) arrears are added, the total stock, as at the end of September, 2022, came to K79.45 billion.

Madam Speaker, for the year 2023, net domestic borrowing is expected to be K15.6 billion financed primarily through the issuance of Government securities.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, the economic performance in 2022, was generally, fair. However, more needs to be done in 2023, in the medium term, especially given risks such as possible downturn in the global economic environment and resurgence of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). Although the domestic economy is expected to face challenges associated with global developments, it is envisaged to remain resilient. The Government will continue to undertake growth-enhancing programmes while mitigating the fullest extent possible the adverse spill over effects of the current uncertain global reality. Undertaking reforms to unlock barriers will be key, especially in the agricultural and energy sectors.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Looking at the time that is left under this segment, I will add fifteen more minutes.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

As you ask your questions, bear in mind that you are not supposed to debate, but to just ask questions on points of clarification.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the first chance to the people of Lundazi to ask a question. I thank the hon. Minister for the detailed statement. However, I have one question which I want the hon. Minister to clarify. When the hon. Minister was rendering his statement, he talked about converting the pipeline into one that would be bringing in a finished product. One of the ways Zambia raises its resources is through collection of toll fees from toll gates. When the transporters are coming into the nation, we get other resources using the toll gates.

Madam Speaker, has the Government done a cost benefit analysis (CBA) to see whether the money the country is going to lose, which it collects from toll fees, is less than what it will raise from bringing in finished products such as diesel and fuel and in turn benefit the people of Zambia, especially the villagers in Lundazi?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, yes, the cost benefit analysis (CBA) has been undertaken firstly, because transporting of diesel from Dar-es-Salaam to Ndola by the pipeline is much cheaper than using trucks. So, the country will save money that way.

Secondly, colleagues who are resident on the Great North Road have realised how much damage is being caused on that road by the heavy tankers that bring in the fuel. So, that is a cost to the economy. Therefore, when we bring in fuel through the pipeline, that cost will be done away with.

Madam Speaker, when you compare these savings that we are making and the little money that we are collecting as toll fees, you will realise that the country stands to benefit.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, my heart leaped with joy when the hon. Minister talked about the completion of the pipeline and plans to transport fuel via the pipeline.

Madam Speaker, are we seeing a decrease in the pump price anytime soon, especially that our economy is driven by the energy and diesel, in particular?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the cost of fuel in the country is driven by a number of things. Firstly, the price at which you buy it from the source is in dollars. If the price in dollars goes up, you should expect prices also to be pushed up and if the price goes down, the opposite will happen.

Secondly, it is the cost of transporting that fuel from Dar es Salaam to Ndola. On this one, the cost of transportation, as I have just explained, tends to push the prices down, indeed.

Thirdly, the major factor is the exchange rate. When the exchange rate becomes strong, the cost of fuel goes down. When the Kwacha becomes weak, the cost of fuel tends to be pushed upwards.

Madam Speaker, ultimately, we have to take all these three factors and a few others, which are minor, into consideration. If it is the international price, which way is it pushing? If it is the cost of transportation, we know it is downwards. When it comes to the exchange rate, which way is it pushing? So, the ultimate cost will depend on the interaction of all these three factors.

Madam Speaker, what I can say is that with the reduced cost of transportation, even if the other two factors; the exchange rate and the importing price, tend to push the price up, the cost of transportation will tend to push the cost downwards. So, if for any reason, you see the price going up now, just know that the price would have gone up much higher if we had not changed the form of transportation from tankers to the pipeline.

However, Madam Speaker, I am hoping, as we are all hoping, the calculations must be done first. We are all hoping that the price will remain stable, if not urged downward a little bit. However, I repeat that if the price goes up, just know that the situation would have been worse if we were transporting by tankers.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s first speech to Parliament, he informed this august House that Zambia will start producing 3 million tonnes of copper over a period of ten years. Linked to that possibility are incentives to the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) announced that it had made a loss of K21 billion. One of the reasons for that loss was that the authority was not getting enough money from the mining sector. Therefore, how far has the Government gone in achieving the projected target of 3 million tonnes of copper over a period of ten years?

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister will agree with me that progressively, each year must contribute to that total tonnage of copper that we need to produce to achieve the 3 million tonnes.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, with regard to the less than projected collections from the mining sector, it is important to ask the question: What is the cause? If the hon. Member reads through the Zambia Revenue Authority’s statement, he will see that the cause is that the profitability of the sector was affected last year because of the price of the copper that went down. So, with lower profits, it follows that the taxes that are paid must also be less. On top of that, the hon. Member will recall that we are still having challenges in the production of copper from the owed mining assets, basically from Konkola Copper Mines plc (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mine.

Madam Speaker, on what progress is being made to achieve the 3 million tonnes of copper production, ever since we announced the realignment of the Mineral Royalty Tax to what other countries are doing, it was not really giving away, but basically aligning ourselves with all the other mining countries. Ever since that step was taken and since we also took the step of saying that for us, the mining taxation regime will not be going up and down, creating uncertainty among the investors, we have seen positive developments. The positive developments include the investment of US$1.2 billion by First Quantum Minerals (FQM) to enhance production and to start a new mine of nickel, the biggest in the county. So, that is a positive step. I am sure you are also aware of the US$150 million investment in Chililabombwe by KoBold Metals. That is also something positive.

Madam Speaker, we have seen unprecedented interest by investors to come into the existing mines that have been facing problems, in the last two years; unprecedented interest by the highest quality mining houses in the world. If you take a look at Mopani Copper Mines alone, there are more than ten world class companies that are currently taking a look at it with a very serious view to investing. When we finally conclude that, you can imagine the amount of copper that we will be producing and contributing towards that 3 million tonnes. That is only possible in the environment that has been created. Before that, no one wanted to take a look at Zambia. Companies were leaving. Glencore and many other companies were threatening to leave. I am very confident, and, as we speak right now, the number of prospecting companies in the country is unprecedented. So, yes, we are gravitating towards that target that we spoke about.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, food inflation is now a global concern. The Word Bank has just released a report which shows the countries that are highly hit by food inflation. It shows that in the United Kingdom (UK), food prices have sky rocketed and there is high food inflation right now. Fortunately, for us, Zambia is not among the countries that have been listed as having been highly hit by food inflation. What would the hon. Minister attribute that to?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, inflation, which is a measure of how a shopping basket changes in price, the hon. Member is right, is not just determined by one single commodity. It is determined by the entire basket of what shoppers buy. I say this because there is a tendency for colleagues to pick one commodity and say that the price of this has gone up, and ask why the inflation rate is high.

Interruptions

Mr Musokotwane: That is obviously wrong because you must take the totality of all the prices in the shopping basket to know what is happening regarding inflation.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member singled out the issue of food inflation, which I now address. Yes, Zambia has done relatively better off as compared to other countries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: The statistics and the World Bank report are available for hon. Members to go and take a look. My hon. Colleagues must make a habit of reading documents. If they do not read, they will be misinforming themselves and their people.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Dr Musokotwane: so, the document that the hon. Member quoted makes a comparison of Zambia with many other countries. In that comparison, Zambia, even though, of course, we must admit that the prices of food have gone up, especially mealie meal, is still better off than other countries.

Madam Speaker, for example, across one of the borders of our country, a bag of mealie meal, which was about K150, sometime ago, now sells between K300 and K500. So, yes, the mealie meal prices have gone up, but we are still better off as compared to other countries. Why is it so?

It is because we produce enough maize to feed our people, but due to the shortages that emerged in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Tanzania, Kenya and Malawi, there is a lot of smuggling that is taking place because the prices of food hear is cheaper.

So, the pressure to come and smuggle and go and sell in their countries is high. It is this smuggling that has created the pressure for the prices of our commodities to go up. If you take a look at the worst affected in terms of the price of mealie meal being high, it is places in Zambia which are in the border areas. If you go around Nakonde which borders with with Tanzania, Luapula and Kasumbalesa which borders with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), the prices are much higher than there are in Lusaka. What that tells you is that there is smuggling pressure that is coming from those countries that have no food.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has spoken about the exchange rate, fuel, fertiliser, inflation, the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and revenue collection, but left out one very important area which is the rising cost of the average food basket in Zambia, which is slightly over K9,000 for an average family of six.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister already told us that we slowly need to brace ourselves because 2023 will not be easy. Should we wait for it to get harder or does the Government have any measures to try and reduce the cost of living as it is affecting each and every household in this country?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, inflation is not at zero, which means that prices are going up. Let me also say that even though prices are going up, we see improvements in the rate at which they are going up in the sense that under the last Government, they were going up faster than they are today.

Madam Speaker, I say so because under the previous Government, prices were rising at more than 23 per cent per annum, but now, they are rising at 10 per cent per annum. So, yes, they are increasing, but there is an improvement as compared to what this Government found.

Hon. Member: Where?

Madam Speaker: Please, hon. Members, do not debate while seated.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Musokotwane: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In terms of what is being done to improve even further, the Government is taking measures to stabilise the prices of mealie meal. The whole of this morning, that is what we were discussing, and measures will be announced by my hon. Colleague on what is being done to stabilise the price of mealie meal. As for the price of foreign currency, the exchange rate, I have said before, so many times here, that the pressure is a direct consequence of the excess debt that our colleagues, seated across, left in the first place.

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, we are trying to resolve this issue of debt, and I must say that on the part of the Government, we had an agreement with the creditors. When the creditors said that they could give us debt relieve if we did this and that, this Government did all those things. The delay is on the part of the creditors themselves. So, in other words, regarding the problem of the debt that we inherited, we have aggressively addressed it and hopefully, sooner rather than later, we will come to the point where debt relief will be provided. Once that is done hon. Member for Kasama Central, the exchange rate will be stabilised. If hon. Members may recall, when the International Monetary Fund (IMF) gave us a programme, that is when the Kwacha strengthened a lot. So, once this issue of debt is resolved, the exchange rate is going to be stabilised and the cost of living is going to come down.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we appreciate and sympathise with the hon. Minister. I certainly like the way he diplomatically gave a no answer to my hon. Colleague from Mushindamo.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

Please, ask a question on a point of clarification and do not debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, this matter is very critical and it is important that the hon. Minister reconciles with his hon. Colleagues in the Government because the impression that is being given to the people of Zambia is that the commissioning –

Madam Speaker: Order, Hon. Member!

If you want to advise the hon. Minister, I am sure you can always have a chat with him. Ask a question on a point of clarification. This is not the time for giving advice.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the commissioning of the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) pipeline to move diesel, which is a finished product, as the hon. Minister has said, is not a solution to the pricing of finished products because we still have petrol, Jet A-1, and HA4, which will still be transported by road. One wonders how HA4 would be couriered by road. Is the hon. Minister really convinced that this country can sustain its economy by depending on finished products other than modernising the Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited, which was channelling out a number of by-products which were beneficial to the economy in different ways?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Please, do not debate while seated. May the hon. Member for Shawang’andu conclude his question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is whether he is convinced himself knowing the way we do things that he is being sincere, and I like the way he responded to my colleague from Mushindamo –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Kampyongo: Is it sustainable for this country to depend on finished products only?

Mr Jamba: Yes!

Mr Kampyongo: You will not even say yes. Even now, you will not get to your constituency.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, stop saying yes. Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, please ask your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I have concluded my question, I think the hon. Minister has picked it.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank the Hon. Kampyongo, Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu for his question. The answer to his question is yes. I think it was also a yes under their Government and that is why for ten years, they did not do anything on the refinery because they knew it was expensive. So, the answer is definitely a “yes” from us as the Government and “yes” from them. That is why they did not do what they are suggesting we should do.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that the fuel that was coming from Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited is at least 25 per cent more expensive than the imported fuel. That is known. That is why when Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited was still processing, there was always this tax on imported fuel which was at 25 per cent. Why? This was to make sure that Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited survived the imported cheaper fuel. That was the reason. So, why would they want to subject the Zambians to fuel that is 25 per cent more expensive when we can import it cheaply just to sustain 300 jobs? That is bad economics.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, let me also say something to the hon. Member. Countries that had refineries which were inefficient like ours because of the small size, such as Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Kenya and South Africa, all closed their refineries. Why? This is because it was cheaper to import than to try and refine. Therefore, this is why I say that the decision to be importing finished fuel rather than making it at Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited is economically sound.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you. That is what the time we had could allow. The hon. Members who still have questions can continue to engage the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DELAYED PAYMENT OF CLAIMS BY NHIMA TO HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS

242. Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) whether the Government is aware that patients under the National Health Insurance Scheme are being denied services by health care providers due to delayed payment of claims by the National Health Insurance Management Authority to the health care providers; and

(b) if so, what urgent measures are being taken to ensure that health care providers are paid on time to avert loss of life.

The Minister of Information and Media (Ms Kasanda) (on behalf of the Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba)): Madam Speaker, the Government is not aware that patients who are members of the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIMA) are being denied services by health care providers due to delayed payment of claims. NHIMA has entered an memorandum of understanding (MoU) and contracts with both public and private health care providers, which stipulate a service level of forty-five days turnaround time for payment of valid terms. Currently, the authority’s average turnaround time is thirty-five days. The authority has been meeting its obligations to settle claims within the service level agreements. The authority paid out 1,038,747 claims valued at K889,117,753 in 2022.

Madam Speaker, the measures that are being undertaken to ensure that claims are paid on time is the introduction of the electronic data interface (EDI) where 90 per cent of accredited health care providers are submitting their claims to ensure faster turnaround times and reconciliations. All health care providers have been trained on the use of the EDI for submission of claims.

Madam Speaker, moreover, the contracts of accreditation and the guidelines of the Health Professions Council of Zambia (HPCZ) stipulate that no member or patient shall be denied services. The authority has in place a complaints procedure where if a complaint of this nature is received and investigated, it may result in the termination of the contract with a health care provider and revocation of accreditation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the response from the Acting hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, the scheme was meant not only for the people in employment but also, for those who are not in employment. Therefore, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is not the most appropriate ministry to administer the scheme. Is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security in talks with the hon. Minister of Health, who is seated next to her since this scheme was properly put under the Ministry of Health? I am saying so because some people who subscribe to the scheme are not employed. The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security is responsible for people in employment. Is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security in talks with the hon. Minister of Health so that the scheme can be placed back under the Ministry of Health and complaints such as the one made by the hon. Member for Kasenengwa can easily be detected and dealt with?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, indeed, we are in talks with the hon. Minister of Health. We have engaged her on a number of occasions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, I am disappointed to learn that the Government is not aware that the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIMA) is inefficient. Now that this has been brought to the attention of the hon. Minister, will she do any due diligence to see how effective NHIMA is under her ministry or will she consider taking it back to the Ministry of Health?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to inform my hon. Colleague, the Member for Kasenengwa, that when there is an issue of this sort, it is important that he submits a complaint. There are different channels we have of submitting complaints. There are different ways in which he can make this complaint. He can make the complaint through the toll-free line, which is 8000. If he has a specific episode or complaint, it is important that he submits that complaint through the toll-free line, which is 8000, or the Facebook page. He can also write to the ministry concerning that complaint. Maybe, he may want to give us a specific scenario of what happened and we can always engage him. It looks like there was a specific scenario that transpired.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member asked two questions, although he made it look like he asked one. To answer the second question, we are in talks with the Ministry of Health, like I earlier told the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu. We will continue engaging the Ministry of Health because the scheme used to sit there. Indeed, we will engage our colleagues and we will make sure that NHIMA does deliver to the people as we promised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, in her answer, the hon. Minister said that the Government is not aware that some patients are being denied services. Through this question, the hon. Member for Kasenengwa has made it very clear that there is this problem. So, the question is: What will the ministry do about it, now that it has been brought to the attention of the Government that there is this scenario? That is the question that begs an answer.

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, now that we are aware, we will definitely investigate the matter. Like I said earlier, we needed a complaint. Now that a complaint has been brought forth, we will engage the hon. Member of Parliament and check if this episode truly happened or did not happen. Definitely, we will engage the hon. Member of Parliament. What also needs to be taken into account is that people need to bring complaints in the official way that they should be brought in. So, it is important that complaints are brought to the ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, the unused funds from contributions from companies are normally invested in short-term instruments to enhance solvency of the fund and to gain some interest at the same time, yet that indigent person is –

Interruptions

Mr A. Banda: I am talking about the funds or contributions from companies that are not used by the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIMA), are invested in short-term instruments, for solvency purposes. At the same time, they gain interest. When will the Government start to make contributions on behalf of the indigent person because that indigent person is not catered for?

Madam Speaker: It appears the hon. Minister has not got your question.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, NHIMA caters for the –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we listen.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, let me put it clearly and simply. NHIMA caters for people who are in formal employment, and yet an indigent person, the most vulnerable, the poorest of the poor, is not catered for. We know that NHIMA makes a profit or interest from the money that is not used but invested. When will the Government start looking at incorporating or capturing that poorest person in Chimwemwe Constituency?

Madam Speaker: The problem I see, hon. Member, is that your mouth is too close to the microphone.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, let me just say this. The way NHIMA works, as far as we are concerned –

Madam Speaker: No, do not explain. Just ask the question.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, when will that poorest person in Chimwemwe Constituency be captured by the Government using the funds that are gained from the interest as NHIMA invests in short-term instruments? Is this better now?

Hon. Opposition Members: They still cannot hear.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Please, can we comply with our rules. No debating while seated.

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member must have gone to a very expensive school because with his ascent, we could hardly hear him.

Laughter

Ms Kasanda: However, I think I picked a few things from what he said. What we need to take into account is that NHIMA has been supporting hospitals, and by virtue of supporting hospitals, it means the most vulnerable people are getting access to those hospitals dotted around the country. So, even the vulnerable people he talked about will get medical care from the hospitals within the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The question was: When will the vulnerable people of Chimwemwe be captured so that they can benefit?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, the people of Chimwemwe are covered. That is how they are being covered. If the hon. Member of Parliament is saying that the people of Chimwemwe have not been captured for a specific reason, maybe, we can talk about that reason.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, you can liaise with the hon. Member and see how best you can solve that problem.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I did not indicate to speak.

Madam Speaker: You have indicated on the Electronic Chamber (e-Chamber). Okay, somebody must have been trying to log in for you or something.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) appears to have been a good idea which was set into operation without much clarity. However, I know that you inherited it and you are trying to make sure it operates as efficiently as possible. One of the controls that NHIMA has put in place is the finger print requirement to access NHIMA services. This becomes very difficult when the patient is admitted into a health facility and he/she needs to access medicines that need to be procured from private pharmacies which ask for the finger print of the patient who is bedridden.

Madam Speaker, is the Government closely looking at the operations of NHIMA in order to review everything including controls so as to make it more responsive to the members and the provision of health services and medicines?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, my answer is yes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I just want to know if the hon. Minister is able to come and share with us the financial statement of National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) to show a true and fair view of the status of NHIMA regarding the timeless payment of claims.

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, yes, we can come back to the House with a statement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, one of the hon. Members on your right had suggested that the way National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) was formulated really was not very clear and perhaps that is why we have these problems. However, I must say that NHIMA is a very good initiative; extremely good. As the New Dawn Government, do they have any plans to refine the operations of NHIMA from what it is to something better because their suggestion is that it is not good enough? Does the Government have those plans?

Madam Speaker: That question is similar to the one that was asked by the hon. Member for Luena.

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, indeed, I did respond to that question and I said that we were going to refine the operations of the institution.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I understand that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) and SMART Zambia Institute are working hand in hand, and that the electronic governance (e-governance) is going on well. They have done well in the Central Province and Copperbelt Province. How far have they gone with the implementation of the e-Governance especially that SMART Zambia Institute is the one in charge of the process?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, can the question be repeated.

Madam Speaker: There is a request for the question to be repeated.

Interruptions

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, I was saying that I understand that NHIMA is using the e-Governance system. In provinces like the Copperbelt and Central, I have seen that they have done well in terms of e-governance. How far has the programme gone with SMART Zambia Institute, which is the implementer in charge of the process?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, indeed, it is an ongoing process. So, what I can say is that the whole country will be covered.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ESCALATION OF THE PRICE OF MEALIE MEAL IN NAKONDE

243. Mr Simumba (Nakonde) asked the Minister of Agriculture what urgent measures the Government is taking to curb the escalating price of mealie meal which is as high as K300 in Nakonde and other districts, despite the Government offloading cheaper maize from the Food Reserve Agency (FRA).

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, the following are the measures that the Government has taken to curb the escalating price of mealie meal:

the Government has allowed the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to release maize to selected millers who have been identified to work with the Government and access maize in order to stabilise the price of mealie meal on the market;
the Government has allowed FRA to increase community sales of maize grain in order to directly benefit community households. This will allow them to access mealie meal at a cheaper price since the houses are able to take the maize that they buy to their local places of grinding so that they can have mealie meal made;
the Government has increased security along the border areas to curtail smuggling of mealie meal and maize grain;
the Government is seriously scrutinising the exports of maize and mealie meal;
a Committee of technical officials has been constituted to start visiting milling companies and retail outlets on a regular basis to ascertain the status of physical stock against the book figures that we get;
the Government is also encouraging and allowing the inputs of the actual mealie meal; and
the Government is in discussion with the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU) to hasten the production of early maize specifically for exports.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, Chifubu is one of the constituencies that are heavily hit with the shortage of mealie meal. One of the reasons or factors that have contributed to the shortage of mealie meal is smuggling. So, smuggling is currently rampant in my constituency through the Sakanya Border and along Kawama area of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Despite the measures the hon. Minister has highlighted to have been put in place to curb smuggling, mealie meal is constantly being smuggled into the DRC.

Madam Speaker, according to information on the ground, one of the reasons for the smuggling of mealie meal is that there has been familiarity with officers of the defence forces who are deployed along the borders and have overstayed. Is the ministry considering discussing with the Ministry of Defence to rotate some of the officers who are around those areas in order to effectively curb the smuggling which could be caused as a result of the familiarity and over stay of some of our officers around there? As we talk now, we have the challenge of not having mealie meal in Chifubu Constituency.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity and I appreciate the hon. Member for Chifubu’s concern. As I have continuously indicated on the Floor of this House, we are experiencing unprecedented pressure on Zambia because the entire region has no white non-genetically modified organism (GMO) grade one maize which Zambia has. Now, to go directly to the question, I wish to state that yes, there is a committee of ministers which is above the committee of technical staff, where the hon. Minister of Defence, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, including other hon. Ministers are members.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member will be happy to know that we spent almost the whole morning today looking at this issue. I am sure when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the hon. Minister of Defence were listening, they were saying yes, we are going to put, not only the officers he is talking about rotating, but other officers, including many plain clothed officers. So, this is a big warning to the smugglers and those who are taking maize across that they will lose their freedom, their equipment and their money.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker gave the Floor to the hon. Member for Vubwi.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. I. Banda (Vubwi): Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Madam Speaker: If somebody is happy, allow them to be happy.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr A. I. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this privilege, on behalf of the good people of Vubwi, to ask the hon. Minister a question.

Madam Speaker, I know the hon. Minister has been on the Floor of this House several times trying to put in place measures which would reduce the prices of mealie-meal, but to date, what is tantalising on the ground is contrary to what he stated. What other measures has the ministry put in place for next year? Is the hon. Minister not thinking of putting other measures in place in order to grow more maize than what has been the case before?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very positive suggestion, that part of the answer to this problem is for Zambia to get into mass production of maize so that we can support our colleagues who definitely would have a problem of maize shortages. So, I agree. Most importantly, I appeal to the House, hon. Members on your right and left that this problem of illicit cross-border trade, if not checked, will lead us into trouble. I think it is for all of us to check the illicit trade.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to ask a question on behalf of the good people of Kalulushi.

Madam Speaker, in as much as we appreciate the hon. Minister’s efforts in ensuring that the cost of mealie-meal comes down, with my very little experience, I feel very sorry for him because I can see that he is really trying to bring the cost of mealie-meal down. However, clearly, the elephant in the room is the export of mealie-meal. The Patriotic Front (PF) tried it before, but failed. Why can the hon. Minister not put in place strict systems to allow proper export of the commodity before he can even allow the exports? It is obvious that Kasumbalesa Border Post is porous. You can employ as many officers as possible, but at the end of the day, the mealie-meal will go. We appreciate the bilateral agreements that the Government has with the surrounding countries, but does the Government not think that first of all, it needs to feed its own children before it begins to feed its neighbours’ children?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kalulushi for her kind words. I thank her for identifying that this is a very serious problem for all of us and all the constituencies.

Yes, Madam Speaker, I assure the hon. Member that there has been excessive and extreme checking on legal and authorised exports. So, we are taking care of ourselves. What is draining us now is the illicit movement of maize, and especially now, the mealie-meal.

Madam Speaker, on the Copperbelt, where the hon. Member is from, there is a saying that the young men and women are moving in what are called, “VVTIs” and they are carrying mealie-meal in small cars, taking it to the places where they do not just cross the border, but they leave it right on the border and other people come to collect it. So, let us stop the VVTIs. It should be our responsibility because not even the army can manage this.

Madam Speaker, this is a serious problem. No matter what we do, but for as longer as I am told to release maize so that there is mealie-meal in Zambia, the mealie-meal is going. It is our own citizens who are buying and taking it across. So, this is a serious issue. So, I am happy that the hon. Members are taking this issue very seriously. Furthermore, the Copperbelt Province is one of the biggest victims just like the Eastern Province, let me just say all the areas along the Northern side of Zambia. We are in many problems.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, like my hon. Colleague from Kalulushi, I, too, feel for the hon. Minister with regard to the pressure that has been created over the issue of mealie-meal. I must report to you that yesterday, Kantanshi and Mfulira districts did not have any mealie-meal and that created many problems.

Madam Speaker, there is point ‘a’ and point ‘f’. So, point ‘a’ is where selected millers have been given maize, and the hon. Minister will agree with me that that maize is taxpayer’s maize, if he looks at the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISIP) equation. Why has it been difficult for the ministry to announce the names of the milling companies which have been given subsidised maize so that the people of Zambia can benefit from that? Why has the ministry not been doing that?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, yet, again, let me be thankful for the kind expression that this is a problem we all need to attend to other than pointing fingers at each other. I hear the suggestion, but I might have to consider talking to the hon. Minister of Justice because when you sell maize, …

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I am grateful that you have allowed me to rise on this very serious matter.

Madam Speaker, I did ask the hon. Minister this same question that the hon. Member for Kantanshi has asked, and he said he would consult with the hon. Minister of Justice and get back to this House to give us an answer on whether he could start announcing the names of millers that are given or sold maize by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA).

Madam Speaker, I am aware that the House will be rising this Friday. Is the hon. Minister in order to continue giving us the same answer; …

Mr Amutike: Question!

Mr Mutale: … that he will go to the hon. Minister of Justice and consult, when he was given enough time to consult his counterpart so that we, hon. Members of this House, could help him monitor those millers –

Mr Amutike interjected.

Mr Mutale: You, why do you like talking too much like that kanshi?

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chitambo!

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, that one is always a problem.

Madam Speaker: No, that is not the way –

Mr Mutale: The hon. Member for Mongu – No, it is too much, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Yes, but do not engage him, please.

Mr Mutale: No! He must mature that man.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, you are now getting out of order.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Always learn to speak through the Chair, then we will maintain order. You are contributing to the disorder in the House. Even if one hon. Member is wrong, as a hon. Member, you cannot point at and start to address him/her. You are promoting disorder. That means both of you, the hon. Member for Mongu Central and the hon. Member for Chitambo, are out of order.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order!

Now, on the point of order that was raised by the hon. Member for Chitambo on the hon. Minister consulting, knowing that we are rising on Friday, are we not coming back? The hon. Minister will come back to us.

Mr Mutale interjected.

Madam Speaker: You started engaging the hon. Member. I have a lot of work today. I do not want to waste time unnecessarily. You contributed to the disorder in the House. So, when I see that an hon. Member is contributing to disorder, I curtail them.

Mr Mutale: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Can we make some progress.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, the price of mealie meal, today, in Nakonde, is K320. One of thing that has contributed to this is that we have a small milling plant that only manages to produce 400 bags per day against the demand of more than 4,000 bags. My question to the hon. Minister is: Does he have any plans to construct a bigger milling plant so that it can cushion the demand in Nakonde?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I can definitely indicate to the hon. Member that yes, the Government now is seriously considering putting up a mill in each province which will be run by the State, through the Zambia National Service (ZNS) or the Zambia Correctional Services (ZCS) or at least, a unit which is connected to the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, we hear the hon. Minister. The hon. Minister will agree with me that right now, there are trucks that are ferrying maize into the East Africa. The Government is selling maize here in Lusaka which is being collected from Kawambwa. He is aware about that. Even today, there are more than ten to twenty trucks that are ferrying maize from the Kawambwa Food Reserve Agency (FRA) satellite depots into the East Africa.

Madam Speaker, it is said, for those that have studied trade, and I know Dr Musokotwane will agree with me, that when you restrict something, you promote illicit trade. Does the hon. Minister not think that by imposing restrictions on the sale of maize, he is encouraging illegal trade? In Zambia, the law on smuggling that people like referring to does not apply. The law against smuggling only applies, in case the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has not guided the hon. Minister of Agriculture, when a truck is coming into Zambia and not going out. When trucks going outside the border are impounded and matters go to court, the Government always loses those cases. The hon. Minister is aware about that. Does the hon. Minister not think that it is prudent for him to first look at satisfying the local market by giving enough maize to local millers than what is happening right now in Luapula where, almost every day, more than twenty trucks are carrying maize to East Africa?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, allow me to answer this question in two parts. The first part is for me to express my confusion from the question because on one hand, the hon. Member says that ferrying maize to East Africa could be an issue. On the other, he says that when you restrict maize sales or exports, you create smuggling. So, let me make this clear that on that part, he might want to reconcile, first of all, what exactly he is talking about.

Madam Speaker, on the second part, to answer the question, the story was that Zambia had more maize than it needed. We bought more maize than we needed and allowed some exports. Part of the maize was to go to Tanzania because, as he is aware, there is a problem in Tanzania and Kenya where lives have actually been lost.

Madam Speaker, we started restricting movements to make sure that we did not get into real serious trouble by exporting everything. The Tanzanian Government made a Government-to-Government request for the 4,000 tonnes of maize that had been stopped from moving to be allowed to go. That is the maize that we have allowed into East Africa, legally.

Madam Speaker, allow me to let hon. Members in the House know that the trucks they see in the North-Western Province, the Northern Province and Luapula Province picking maize are not picking necessarily for export. We are redistributing maize in the country for local consumption. I think this is a very important point. All the maize in the Northern Province, for example, was swept away because the real demand was up there. So, now, we are moving maize from Luapula Province, which is closest to the Northern Province, to satisfy some of the millers who do not have maize. So, not everything they see loaded is going out of the country. That could be a misinterpretation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, the first time I heard about the word ‘smuggling’ was when I was a little boy, under the Kaunda Regime. We are still talking about smuggling today. What is it that the ministry envisions to do for Zambia to become a net exporter of both mealie meal and maize? To understand smuggling in the context of a yawning market at the regional level, what do we need to do? Looking at what we have, Zambia does not need to have shortages, and this is a huge market for us. So, what is the ministry doing to ensure that we become that net exporter in line with our National Trade Policy?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, that is an absolutely important question. The first thing I would say is: To look at this issue and become sick with it is not the right thing to do. We should, indeed, look at this issue and see it as an opportunity. Each and every hon. Member in this House should start producing and become a farmer.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: If the hon. Members would organise themselves, I would make sure they received fertiliser because now, we are producing fertiliser in Zambia. So, each and every one should produce.

Madam Speaker, on a very serious note, Madam Speaker, we are now moving maize. Our maize is being taken to Malawi. It is normally not like that, but the reverse. It is also being to Mozambique, and it is normally never like that. It is a pity that Hon. J. E. Banda is not here. It is normally the reverse; maize is moved from Mozambique into Zambia. What is happening now is a complete reversal. We are surrounded by a market. So, instead of mourning here, we should be saying, “What should we do?” So, what are we doing?

Madam Speaker, I explained in my answer that we have encouraged the Zambia National Farmers’ Union to produce for export only. I have been talking to the hon. Minister of Defence that, maybe, all the farms for the ZNS should just be producing maize. That is the way we should be looking at this problem, but most importantly, hon. Member for Pambashe, the hon. Member for Chawama, the hon. Member for Kalulushi, the hon. Member for Solwezi East and everyone should be producing maize.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: We are farmers.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, everyone should be producing. I have never bought a bag of mealie meal in more than twenty years, and I would like everyone to be like that.

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kanchibiya who has asked a question which probably should sink in all of us so that we produce as Zambia. Here is a market and we are here complaining and excusing the hon. Minister of Agriculture for exporting everything. The hon. Member for Pambashe should produce maize.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Let us make progress, and because of time, I will allow three more questions from the hon. Member for Mpika, the hon. Member for Chama North and the hon. Member for Kabwata, in that order.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has elaborated the measures they have put in place well. Let me remind the hon. Minister that in Muchinga Province, we have a milling plant which is run by the Zambia National Service (ZNS). The milling plant has the capacity to produce 48,000 by 25 kg of mealie meal a day. This milling plant is in Mpika District, in my constituency.

Madam Speaker, however, even in Mpika, our people are still queuing for high-priced mealie meal. The hon. Minister has put all those measures in place but the price for mealie meal has not gone down. We are also facing shortages of mealie meal. What is really the problem? Just a few days ago, the hon. Minister was on the Floor of the House where he vowed that he was not going to halt the exporting of maize even when we have been faced with this challenge.

Madam Speaker, when is the hon. Minister going to attend to the issue of reducing the mealie meal to K50 per bag?

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

Please, only one question per person. The hon. Minister will repeat his answer because it was the first thing that he said. I hope the hon. Member for Mpika was listening. The hon. Minister of Agriculture, you may proceed.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, yes, there is a milling plant and the hon. Member has said that this milling plant has the capacity of producing 48,000 by 25 kg of mealie meal.

Madam Speaker, for the hon. Members’ information, the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and Correctional Services have been given priority one. Whenever they want maize, we will give it to them even if they do not have money to pay there and then because they try very hard to control the distribution of the mealie meal that comes out of their plants.

Madam Speaker, now, the question which the hon. Member should have supported us with or helped us with is: Where are the 48,000 bags of mealie meal going per day? The answer is simple. The area where the hon. Member is coming from is one of the most difficult areas because people are taking mealie meal across the border.

Madam Speaker, areas like Mpika and Nakonde – Let me not isolate him because he might think I am picking on him. The are other areas include Chipata, where I am an hon. Member of Parliament. We are having these problems because they are border areas. So, the issue is that for us to become the real time patriotic to Zambia and stop this smuggling – I do not like the term “smuggling” as the hon. Member for Kanchibiya said. So, we really need to start stopping this illegal cross border trade as a group and as Zambians.

Madam Speaker, when mealie meal is off-loaded at Shoprite in Chipata, there are colleagues who go there to buy one, two, three, four bags and in less than thirty minutes, 600 bags of mealie meal are gone. Where are these bags of mealie meal heading to? They are heading in one direction and we know where. Now, if we allow that, we are going to deplete our stock and there is nothing that I can do, unless now, we stop releasing maize to millers. So, that is why the hon. Minister of Defence and hon. Minister of Home Affair and Internal Security are now coming in, which is a very sad situation because then, we will be stopping people from going to sell across and make some little money. The answer is in high production, but this is a unique year where everyone in the region has no maize.

Madam Speaker, I do not think I can explain more than that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I think the whole world is laughing at us because of sending soldiers to go and prevent people from exporting maize so that the country can receive more foreign exchange.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture has mentioned that they have given maize to some selected millers. Are they also not considering places like Chama and other districts where we have got milling companies and people are producing mealie meal locally. Why can they also not provide mealie meal to those particular areas. I think that way, we will be able to reduce the price of mealie meal because currently, the price of mealie meal in Chama is going at K260. Do they not have those plans to do that?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank you and hon. Mtayachalo, who on face value, the statement would look as if he is taunting us, but when you think deeply on it, he is actually telling the truth that the world could laugh at us because we are stopping international trade. So, I took it in that sense. If he is talking of the revise, I am not with him and I do not agree with him. However, if it was in that particular sense, yes, I am with him.

Madam Speaker, K260 per bag is on a higher side by all standards for Chama. We have introduced community sales of maize in Chama. I repeat that these community sales are good for certain far flung areas because once you buy a bag at K260 per 50 kg bag of maize and mill it, you will get sufficient mealie meal from there to last your family some reasonable time. I have been encouraging that this is what we should do. I even encourage so much the hon. Member for Petauke Central who has just walked in that this is what we should do.

Madam Speaker, however, I am unable to receive a list of millers from him and he should be careful because this is an albatross around his neck. There are hon. Colleagues who spoke like him and gave me the list of millers and when we went to check those milling companies, we found that they were not there. Then, I start questioning, “What we are up to?” So, I put an albatross around his neck. He should give me the names of the milling companies, and we see what happens.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity once again. I believe that where there is a crisis actually, there is an opportunity for one to exceed. The issue of smuggling, if we look at it in a different way, we will discover that it can create an opportunity for yawning or sleeping markets out there.

Madam Speaker, I wanted to find out whether his ministry is considering to set up incentives for farmers or millers that would want to invest in these border areas like Nakonde and Kasumbalesa, so that the issue of smuggling can be dealt with. This way, as a nation, we will be able to make money.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for that position.

Madam Speaker, through you, the problem is not our milling capacity, but lack of sufficient maize to feed ourselves and the region. That is the problem.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for that question.

Madam Speaker, the problem is not our milling capacity but lack of sufficient maize to feed ourselves and the region and I will repeat. The problem is not the milling capacity. We have sufficient milling capacity in this country, which is actually above our requirement. However, the problem this year is that Malawi, Mozambique, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi, Kenya and South Sudan are looking for maize, but we simply do not have sufficient. That is why the undertone here is, “stop feeding other people, look after yourselves first”. You cannot say that is wrong because that is where we could head to if we are not careful. There is so much pressure. The same mealie meal being sold here at K180 or K200, is being sold at K500 or K550 in the Northern Province. So, it makes a lot of sense for someone to put himself at risk, such as being shot, to take the maize across.

Madam Speaker, as Hon. Mtayachalo said – We have asked the army to go to different places, but imagine a person being shot because of carrying a bag of mealie meal to go and sell across and he dies. That would be a sad situation. So, the answer is to develop farming blocks so that we produce mealie meal. When we hear that the Kenyans want to come and grow maize here, we should support that. When we hear that the Rwandese want to come and grow maize here, even Hon. Munir Zulu should say, yes, that is good. When hon. Members hear that we are giving land, they should come and get land and be incentivised, not to have meals, but to grow maize. The incentives are in production, not in milling.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we are not doing so well with time, so I will not allow any further questions. Let us make progress.

244. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

whether the Government has any plans to sink boreholes at the newly constructed markets and health centres in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency; and
if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, yes, the Government has plans to sink seventeen boreholes at the newly constructed markets and health centres in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency. You may wish to note that the contracts for sinking boreholes for 2022 are still valid up to the end of this year.

Madam Speaker, the sinking of the boreholes commenced in the fourth quarter of 2022.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: This is a constituency-based question. So, if we can quickly go through, it would be better.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I will not waste the hon. Minister’s time. I thank him for the response, and I will follow-up on the seventeen boreholes.

CONSTRUCTION OF THE CHAMA/CHIBALE ROAD

245. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

why the contractor working on the Chama/Chibale Road in Chama North Parliamentary Constituency has given notice to terminate the contract;
whether a new contractor will be engaged;
whether the Government has any plans to vary the contract to include the Chama Boma/Sitwe/Chisunga Ward stretch of the road;
if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
when the project will be completed.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform Hon. Mtayachalo and this august House that the contractor working on the Chama/Chibale Road in Chama North Parliamentary Constituency gave notice to terminate the contract based on the clause in the contract that allows either party to terminate the contract due to various factors, among them funding challenges.

Madam Speaker, there is no immediate plan to engage a contractor due to budgetary constraints.

Madam Speaker, the Government does not have immediate plans to vary the contract to include the Chama/Sitwe/Chisunga Ward stretch of the road due to budgetary constraints.

Madam Speaker, as mentioned above, there are no immediate plans to work on the said road.

Madam Speaker, the project has been terminated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Again, this is a constituency-based question.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that response. I just want to make an appeal. The initial direction the road should have led to is a plain, which will be expensive for the Government. We were asking if it can be varied so that it goes through Sitwe because it will cover six wards, unlike only covering one ward. I think that route will be economical. So, my appeal is that the ministry considers varying the road. The ministry should also consider working on the crossing points since the hon. Minister said there are budgetary constraints, and we can use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to grade the road.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama North, please, continue engaging the hon. Minister to sort out those issues. Next question. The hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

Mr Chanda: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. Question 246.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Mr Mtolo was not in the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Probably, he thought that his questions had finished, or maybe, he has just stepped out briefly.

Mr Mtolo entered the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: He went to drink water.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, my sincere apologies to the hon. Member who asked the question.

PROMOTION OF ORGANIC FARMING BY THE GOVERNMENT

246. Mr Chanda asked the Minister of Agriculture:

what measures the Government is taking to promote organic farming in order to reduce the adverse effects of fertilisers and agro-chemicals;
what measures are being taken to promote value addition to organic products, especially in rural areas;
whether the Government has any plans to conduct research to determine the types of fertilisers to use in different parts of the country;
if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
what measures are being taken to establish agricultural industries in rural districts, countrywide.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, the ministry is promoting organic farming to reduce the use of inorganic fertilisers and chemicals in the following ways:

promoting conservation farming. This focuses on sustainable soil management practices, use of crop residues, crop rotation and such approaches;
promoting integrated pest management approaches to reduce reliance on pesticides; and
promoting the use of alternative inorganic fertilisers such as manure.

Madam Speaker, the output from organically produced agricultural commodities is yet to be sufficient to support full scale value addition activities. However, the Government will support any identified groups that are producing organically to market those commodities.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture through the Zambia Agriculture Research Institute (ZARI) carries out research on soils and fertilisers across the country. It is important to note that the ministry has plans to produce updated and digitised soil maps for the whole country. The plans are already being implemented and the Eastern Province is the first to have updated soil maps with the support of the Zambia Integrated Forestry Landscape Project (ZIFLP).

Madam Speaker, as I already stated, we are conducting research on soils and fertilisers.

Madam Speaker, the Government is encouraging investment in specific agricultural value chains such as the Chitambo Cassava Milling Plant and other interventions such as the fruit processing plants established under the Industrial Development Cooperation (IDC).

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the need for soil maps is critical, and we just want to find out if there was any timeframe attached to the ongoing research that the hon. Minister referred to.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I raise the point of order based on Standing Order No. 57 that says that a member may only speak in the House upon the presiding officer’s approval and indication.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to start making noise whilst the people in his constituency, Munali, are waiting patiently to listen to the proceedings in the House?

I seek your serious ruling because the representative of the good people of Petauke Central is here concentrating but the hon. Minister is busy making noise in front.

Madam Speaker: You, hon. Members, are very privileged because you have an opportunity to go outside, walk around and take a drink of water while I am seated here, and this chair is very hard.

Hon. Member for Petauke you had gone out for some time. You have come back and the most important thing you raise is a point of order. Let us work quickly so that I can also go and have a drink of water.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, hon. Minister –

I cannot even see him. Can we proceed.

Hon. Minister, I believe you are disturbing your fellow hon. Member. I do not know whether you are playing cimbuya, …

Mr J. E. Banda: He is my elder brother.

Madam Speaker: Love your brother.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, and the House, indeed, will be very happy to note that the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) has actually offered to support us in carrying out the scientific assessment to know, in the entire country, what types of fertiliser should be applied. It will be mapped and everyone will have that. So, the good part is that the process has started. The Eastern Province has already been mapped, and every other area in Zambia will be mapped as well. It is an ongoing process.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, is there a way of passing the cost for soil repair to fertiliser manufacturing companies?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, what I know is that when the soil has been degraded due to continuous usage of fertilisers, the solution is to buy lime and apply it to the soil. We are looking, in the future, to adding lime to our Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) because definitely certain soils have been degraded. However, the question was if we could pass that cost to fertiliser companies.

The way we buy our fertiliser, Madam Speaker, I am not sure we could achieve that. We might in future when fertiliser is produced in Zambia. However, fertiliser is bought from outside the country so I do not see how we can manage to capture the suppliers to fix our soils.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

______

MOTIONS

THE GOVERNMENT TO RESTRUCTURE STUDENT LOAN REPAYMENTS FOR UNIVERSITY GRADUATES TO MAKE THE REPAYMENTS AFFORDABLE

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) (on behalf of Mr Kafwaya (Lunte)): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to restructure student loan repayments for university graduates to make the repayments affordable.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, in 2016, the National Assembly of Zambia enacted the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Act No. 31, 2016, that established the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB). It replaced the Bursaries Committee established by Statutory Instrument No.182, 1973 of the Education Act, Cap. 134, of the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, HELSB is mandated to, among other things, determine the criteria and terms for giving loans and scholarships, and the rate of interest and recovery of loans. Further, to establish systems to secure the repayment of loans by students and the efficient utilisation and application of scholarships.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that upon the enactment of this law, graduates from public universities such as the Copperbelt University (CBU) and the University of Zambia (UNZA), among others, have suffered huge monthly deductions from their salaries that they are expected to pay within a period of ten years. The cries from the beneficiaries is that the loan repayment amounts are too high compared to their monthly earnings. This has led to most of the loan beneficiaries being in a financial bondage.

Madam Speaker, let me mention that this Motion is informed by the campaign promise made by the United Party for National Development (UPND) in the run-up to the August, 2021, General Elections. During its campaign trail, the UPND bemoaned the plight of university graduates who were incurring huge monthly deductions to repay their student loans and promised that once in power, it would not only restructure but also suspend student loan repayments to the HELSB until a favourable solution was reached.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, on 29^th March, 2021, exactly two years ago, His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, posted on his Facebook page that the UPND would suspend student loan repayments immediately after the party formed the Government, lamenting that there is no need to stress employees in a hard economy.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours to 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that on 29^th March, 2021, which is exactly two years ago, His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema posted on his Facebook page that the United Party for National Development (UPND) would suspend students loan repayments immediately the party formed Government, lamenting that there was no need to stress the employees in a hard economy. I do agree with this post.

Madam Speaker, on 31^st March, 2021, again, President Hakainde Hichilema posted on his Facebook page that the Bursary and Student Loan Policy should not apply interest on the so-called student loan which is currently at 15 per cent per annum. He further suggested that the repayment percentage must be reduced to something like 2.5 per cent of someone’s basic salary from the current 25 per cent. I equally agree with this suggestion that was made by our beloved President.

Madam Speaker, it is now over one year six months since the UNPD took over power and we have not seen the actualisation of the aforesaid campaign promise by the President, where he suggested that the loan repayments would be suspended immediately the UPND assumes offices.

Madam Speaker, the gist of this Motion is to call upon the Government to speedily act on the restructuring of the student loan repayment scheme, so as to reduce the financial pressure on our graduates. Through this Motion, we request the Government to do the following critical things:

to immediately suspend the student loan repayments until a favourable position is reached in line with President Hakainde Hichilema’s aspirations;
to reduce the interest rate so that the overall amount repaid reduces, which lowers the levels of indebtedness by graduates in the long term; and
to reduce the monthly repayment amount or lengthen the recovery period to give graduates a relief.

Madam Speaker, doing the aforementioned will give the graduates some financial space to possibly cater for their basic needs and support their families. Just like President Hakainde Hichilema stated in his Facebook post of 31^st March, 2021, education is a human right and the Government is there to provide social services, which include education. Therefore, the Government should not be seen to be taking advantage of the vulnerable graduates by overcharging them with high interest.

Madam Speaker, while it is appreciated that the funds from which students are sponsored are from taxpayer’s money, let me state that the same former students are equal players when it comes to paying of various taxes, hence the need to help them by restructuring the loan repayment scheme. All that is required is political will from those entrusted to run the affairs of our country, especially in light of the high cost of living that our country is experiencing.

Madam Speaker, I am alive to the fact that the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) has plans to restructure the loan scheme. However, with what is currently prevailing, there is no indication that has been given by the Government as to what is being done, which is resulting in speculation with regards to the commitment of the UPND Government on this issue. We need to note that the longer it takes for HELSB to restructure the student loans, the more our graduates are going to be subjected to misery and financial bondage.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to state that the majority of our graduates are struggling to pay back the loans due to high monthly deductions imposed by the current loan repayment structure which is not only unfavourable but also unsustainable.

Madam Speaker, the cost of living at the moment is high and the economy is hard. The economy is not just hard for the citizens. It is also hard for the Government. That is why the Government has embarked on the process of restructuring its debt. Currently, even today, we heard the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning mention what the Government is doing to negotiate with the creditors so that it can restructure its debt, so that it is given relief. It is for this reason that even the students who have graduated and are on this loan scheme should be given the same relief, so that they can have some breathing space.

Madam Speaker, I therefore, call upon all hon. Members of this august House to support this Motion. I would like to state that this Motion is not meant to politic or to gain any political mileage. It is just meant to help actualise what our President was talking about. I do believe that the intentions of the President when he said we restructure the student loans were good because he was a student at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and so, he understands the struggles that the students go through. He was also a graduate, so he understands the struggles that graduates go through after completing school. So, if the President has good plans, it is our responsibility to make sure that we help him actualise those plans. So, we should not be seen to be pulling the opposite side when the President is pulling the other side. Therefore, anyone who will shoot this Motion down is basically going against the Presidential aspirations.

With these remarks, I thank you –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Before you finish, let me remind you that our Standing Orders do not permit an. hon. Member to use the name of the President to tilt any debate. So, please, as you debate, bear that in mind.

Standing Order 65 (2)(c) states that:

“ a member who is debating shall not use the President’s name to influence debate.”

So, let us bear that in mind as we debate.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I will just end by saying that this Motion is all about supporting what the UPND believes in.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Wamunyima: Now, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank your office for according me the opportunity to second this non-controversial and non-political Motion, which is centred upon the current Government policy.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to thank the mover of the Motion represented here –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my right!

Let us listen to the debate. There is too much noise.

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, I also thank the mover of the Motion, who has been represented ably by the hon. Member for Chinsali, Mr Kalalwe Mukosa.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is historic because it will determine whether we are leaders who care about the next generation or who prioritise the political divide in this country.

Madam Speaker, I first recognise the efforts of the New Dawn Government for, firstly, restoring meal allowances. This is not political. This is what should happen. Meal allowances have been restored in universities. Secondly, I commend it for introducing free education, which has led to the increase of the number of people that should qualify to universities.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: This being the case, we now are calling upon the New Dawn Government to actualise its promise to restructure the loan repayment system, which is hurting graduates who are working.

Madam Speaker, let me be factual and, as the hon. Member for Chinsali moved, just first start by looking at the Jesuit Centre for Theological Reflection (JCTR) food basket for this country. It stands at K9,000 for an average family. A survey on the average salary of a Zambian graduate, according to Paylab, an international salary survey site, stands at K7,000. So, one graduates to earn K7,000 and the current food basket for an average family of five stands at K9,000 before one has this loan deduction, which is at 15 per cent compound interest, annually.

Madam Speaker, I would like to place on record that there is no such repayment scheme in Africa with such a huge interest rate. The Act itself, the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board Act No. 31 of 2016, does not even talk about what should be the actual deduction or percentage. This is an administrative issue that is decided by the board itself. So, we are appealing to this House and to the conscious of every hon. Member of Parliament to understand that the current rate is unrealistic and does not fit into the economic standards that we have today.

Madam Speaker, when we look at the Statutory Instrument (SI) that established the Bursaries Committee before the introduction of the 2016 Act, SI 182 of 1973, the previous setting did not require bursary to be treated as a loan, but rather a grant. For example, the University of Zambia has produced three Republican Presidents in this country who benefited from this grant and none of them have ever paid or serviced a loan, including our current President, whom I agree with. He committed that the moment they took over office they would suspend loan repayments, immediately. We are urging the Government to relook at these loan repayments because, firstly, the unemployment rate is too high, and, secondly the graduates that are formally employed do not get enough.

Madam Speaker, I have a practical example of one student, but will not get into the details of the name. This particular former student or graduate earns K7,000 after deductions are made; NAPSA and other taxes, then the student loan kicks in at K2,700. This person goes home with K2,500. How can one even pay school fees and buy groceries for one’s children from K2,500? This is just a practical example of how unrealistic this interest rate is.

Madam Speaker, I understand that this is a legacy issue. We are not apportioning blame. We are here to apportion leadership and take corrective measures. In fact, this is a good example because for this particular student, the principal loan owed the University of Zambia (UNZA) is K128,392. When 15 per cent interest is added and amortised for the next ten years, they will be required to pay K120,177 which is just K8,000 difference with what they were paid. So, in total, this particular student has to service, in ten years, at 15 per cent compound interest, over K250,000. Now, this has become an urgent matter because, more than ever, there is a genuine concern that the cost of living is going up. Currently, inflation is rising to double digits.

Madam Speaker, further, you agree with me that for an economy to be functional, it does not need to encourage extra debt. However, what graduates are doing, because they cannot adequately service their loans, is that they are incurring additional debt. The Ministry of Health confirmed to this House that part of the reasons for the increased number of suicides includes issues to do with financial distress. Our graduates, in this beautiful country of Zambia, are financially distressed because the deductions are unrealistic and border on really affecting their ability to spend.

Madam Speaker, going forward, it is important that the Ministry of Education considers, perhaps, a levy on education that would encourage changing of the Act so that we can get back to what it was before. People got grants and were educated. Now, when tough times are setting their ugly face on our beautiful country, we even have 15 per cent compound interest on loans that we can manage.

Madam Speaker, I do not think it is rocket science to address this issue. I submit that the New Dawn Government can implement its policy. I submit.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion opposed?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: So, for purposes of managing time, we will give the movers of the Motion two debaters, in addition to the mover and seconder. We will give them two more debaters. The Independents will have two and the opposers three. The hon. Minister will then respond and the mover will wind up.

So, we start with the hon. Members who are opposing.

Mr Nkulukusa (Katuba): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to actually stand to comment and oppose this Motion. Ideally, we should not have been opposing it, but agreeing to it. However, what we do not agree with is this perpetual desire for plagiarism; to plagiarise ideas, bring them into the House and pretend that they are theirs. We all know that, by all measure, plagiarism is tantamount to intellectual property theft. We believe that this idea is highly plagiarised.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that this issue is in our manifesto and that the President also talked about how we can give relief to students that are paying back these loans. We also know that not long ago, the President gave strategic direction to the Ministry of Education to make sure that it finds ways of how it can restructure to give relief to the 14,500 students that are paying back student bursary loans, out of the total number of about 36,000 that should have been paying. As the number is small, the President gave direction for relief.

We all know that in February, the process started and culminated into a concept paper to look at options of how the relief could be given. To plagiarise that idea and come into this House and pretend to be the mover of the idea becomes a challenge for us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: That is the concept we are saying. I think at the level we are, we should be bringing ideas that are new or that the Government is not working on or might not be considering. I heard one hon. Member, the seconder, talking about –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious procedural point of order. This point of order is meant to safeguard your office and that of your clerks. The procedure to process Motions is very well-known. When you admit a Motion for debate, it means you have scrutinised it and you have found it suitable.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to insinuate that this Motion is plagiarised material which is being tabled in Parliament?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Let us not respond. Let us maintain order in the House.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I understand that we are all learning to appreciate how this institution operates, but we need to be acquainted with the procedures of this institution in order to respect it.

Madam Speaker, when a Motion is processed, it is serious business. If people have opposing views to the Motion, they must not use sentiments that undermine your jurisdiction. Is the hon. Member in order to insinuate that this Motion is plagiarised material, when your office processed it?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker, because this is becoming a trend. If we do not deal with it now, we might dilute the essence of this institution.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: When a Motion is submitted for approval, the officers in the Speaker’s office look at it and see whether it is a matter that can be debated. When we admit it for debate, it does not mean that we either support it or we are against it. We just find that it is material that hon. Members of Parliament can exercise their right to debate for and against.

So, when an hon. Member is debating against it, it does not mean that he is undermining the authority of the office of the Speaker. If he supports it, it does not mean that he is promoting the office of the Speaker. Hon. Members are free to debate the Motion. At the end of the day, they can vote. The Speaker does not have a role to play during the debate of the Motion. That is my ruling.

May the hon. Member who was on the Floor continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. All I am saying is that it may not be good practice that we go to see what the Executive is doing and then come and pre-empt what the Executive is doing in order to be seen to be the one in the driving seat. That is the point I am driving home.

Madam Speaker, let me give a background to what is happening in the region. There is nothing strange that is happening in the region. If you look at Malawi, you will see that it is using the same formula; it has 15 per cent interest on student loans with fewer years than Zambia for repaying the loan. In Namibia, the interest rate on student loans is 15 per cent and repayment is in fewer years than those in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, we all agree that the few 14,000 former students who are repaying the loans have pressure and need relief. Right now, the Government, in the concept paper, is looking at how it can provide relief. One of the measures is to reduce the interest rate on loans. That will bring relief. The other measure is to ensure the amortisation of the balances are based on the annual balances. That can bring relief. The other measure is to increase the period for paying back.

Madam Speaker, what we will not agree to, is to be given the model of how it should be done, when they know that the Government is already doing it. There is a concept paper and the Ministry of Education is in the process of presenting that. It is a directive. When the President makes a pronouncement, we all know it becomes a policy statement and the ministry moves to ensure that the policy is implemented. This was a campaign promise.

Madam Speaker, this matter of paying back student loans has not been introduced now, it was introduced some time back. What did the people on the left side do to give relief to students such that they can now move forward to see what relief our students can get?

Madam Speaker, as I said earlier on, ideally, we should not be discussing this Motion. What we will not accept is people brining materials, ideas and others that are plagiarised based on where the Executive is going and bringing them into the House in order to be seen to be the ones moving the agenda.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: There were indications for points of order from both the hon. Member for Chilubi and the hon. Member for Chama South. Hon. Members, let us not debate through points of order. This is a debate. Take your notes and respond to the points.

Hon. Member for Chama South, what is the point of order?

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I am well-guided. Since I have indicated to debate, I will just debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. What is your point of order, hon. Member for Chilubi?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, just a few minutes ago, you guided, using Standing Order No. 65(2)(c) to be specific, about bringing the President’s name in the debate.

Madam Speaker, before he finished, the hon. Member of Parliament who is just from debating, mentioned the President’s name five times. I counted. I do not know whether that particular Standing Order applies to him or applies only to other hon. Members.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as I earlier indicated, hon. Members are not supposed to bring the name of the President in their debate. I guided earlier, but the hon. Member for Chinsali, even after being guided, continued to do so.

Hon. Members, let me guide again. According to Standing Order No. 65(2)(c), a member who is debating shall not use the President’s name to influence the debate. So, if the idea is to influence the debate, the name of the President should not be mentioned. If it is just in the course of the debate, you can mention the name of the President, but if your intention is to influence the debate, then please do not use the name of the President.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, thank you, very kindly, for permitting the voice of Lumezi to support this non-controversial but progressive Motion.

Madam Speaker, I will start with what the mover and the seconder said, that this was a campaign promise of the current ruling party. In fact, I expected the Government to say that it is suspending repayment of student loans for now to come up with a reasonable percentage that the ex-graduates could be paying monthly. The 15 per cent interest that they are paying is huge.

Madam Speaker, I agree with the mover and the seconder of the Motion that the cost of living is extremely high, such that only a cabal is having it easy to have three decent meals in a day. Some people like myself eat one meal a day by choice and not because I cannot afford. However, there are people out there who eat a meal once a day.

They are paying loans and the cost of fuel is going up every day. A bag of mealie meal is expensive in different regions. It costs K360 and then the Government is deducting the loan at 15 per cent, not understanding the dynamics the former students are going through.

Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Member for Katuba mention jurisdictions like Malawi. I do not think that such a jurisdiction is a good example. The other day, we were donating relief food to Malawi. So, it is not the best for benchmarking. We should try by all means to benchmark with countries that have best practices when it comes to paying back loans.

Madam Speaker, it is also worth noting that the hon. Member talked of plagiarism. If, indeed, it was plagiarism, this House permits all hon. Members to move Motions. Bring such progressive Motions and we will support them so that we are not accused of being copy cats.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member talked of plagiarism and I disagree that this is plagiarism. The cost of living has led many young people into wrong doings.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members! I guided that let us not debate through points of order. We have a lot of work to attend to, unless if it is matter of life and death.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, indeed, it is very close to being a matter of life and death.

Madam Speaker, I am worried. Zambia and Malawi enjoy cordial relations. My point of order is pursuant to Clause 65. The hon. Member’s manner of debate is extremely demeaning to our sister country Malawi. Yes, Zambia provided relief on account that Malawi has had disasters and it has been grappling with the outbreak of cholera, and also Cyclone Freddy.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi in order to debate in a manner that is extremely demeaning to our neighbouring country, and to suggest that we should not benchmark with a country such as Malawi, and that we must consider benchmarking with other countries on account that we provided relief to Malawi. I think this is demeaning. Is he in order to debate in that manner?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for that point of order.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, as you debate, please avoid disparaging other countries, which we enjoy good diplomatic relations with. Also, it was not the people of Malawi’s fault; it was an act of God. What happened to them can happen to anyone. So, let us not rejoice in our sister country’s misery. Please, as you debate, do not bring in the names of other countries. It is undiplomatic. You may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance. To clarify the point I was putting across, I did not mean to injure any country.

Madam Speaker: No, just proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the lack of economic freedom could be one of the major reasons for the loss of life.

Madam Speaker, depression is real.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, stick to the Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: I am sticking to the Motion, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Okay. Proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: I am qualifying the statement I believe this House should agree to this Motion. The high cost of living is causing people to go into depression and they are failing to fend for their families.

Madam Speaker, talking of plagiarism, speaking to this Motion in a very subtle way – we expect the Vice-President of the United States of America in this country tomorrow. We shall not condemn the plagiarism if it is repeated in Zambia and the statement that came from Kenya. It is the cost of living that is forcing the young people to get involved in the ills of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queer (LGBTQ).

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, there is a Motion on the Floor. Stick to the Motion on the Floor, no matter how much you love this LGBTQ thing. Please, keep away from it. We are not debating that Motion right now. So, stick to the Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, this Motion is in way telling us to promote an avenue that will discourage the former graduates and the young people from practicing unnatural things and illicit behaviour like gabbling because then, they will have a better source of income and manage the many debts they have. If the cost of living is not addressed by bringing in such measures, so many wrong things will be happening and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the graduates, whom we are speaking on behalf of, are voters and they are ‘feeling’ the cost of living. How do we as reasonable Members of Parliament oppose such a progressive Motion that is speaking to the people who are dealing with the cost of living on a daily basis?

Madam Speaker, tomorrow, I will be one of those Members who will be protesting and surely, we should –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, your intention for tomorrow is not being debated on the Floor of this House. Please, stick to the Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, we should adopt good practices when opposing such progressive Motions. Taking advantage of the opportunity, my colleagues on your right should start bringing progressive Motions that we will support and we will progress.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: It is not time to advise but to debate.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, let me state that I support this important Motion.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by looking at what restructuring is because the key word is restructuring the repayment of the loan. The idea of giving loans to our students is very good and it is an idea that we need to uphold and protect if many people are to access higher education. We all know that free education ends at Grade 12, but if we are to produce meaningful citizens, they need to be exposed to tertiary education, and that can only be attained if there is a sustainable financial base. The loans have actually proved to be one of the means through which our people can access tertiary education.

Madam Speaker, if you go the University of Zambia (UNZA), you will find our children piled up in one room. You will find ten to fifteen students in one room. This is an emergency.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I told the hon. Minister of Education that after interacting with my good brother, the Dean of Students, Mr Munkombwe, we realised that there is need for us as hon. Members of Parliament to work closely with our colleagues, who are sitting in front of the august House to ensure that the needs of our students, especially when it comes to accommodation, which is part of the loan, are attended to. Our students are paying K3,900 per bed space and the environment in which they are is not good. Some students are forced stay in Kalingalinga. We are even losing some students.

Madam Speaker, in my understanding, the restructuring of the loan simply means that the Government should find a way of lessening the burden on the graduates. I know that the best option is to scrap it off completely although others would argue. Examples are being given that probably the presiding officers of the House accessed free education, including myself. I have to admit because when I was at the university, I accessed bursary which I am not repaying, but times have changed. Colleagues, times have changed. We have more pupils graduating from Grade 12 who want to access higher education.

Madam Speaker, the Motion is urging the Government to restructure. Restructuring means probably reducing the interest rates and increasing the period or repayment. For example, if you are deducting K2,500, you can start deducting K500 then, increase the number of years in which these students can repay the loan. By so doing, we will be reducing the burden on the former beneficiaries of the loans scheme or alternatively, you can reduce the interest rate. Instead of 15 per cent, why not put it at 2 per cent? We will still be happy because we have many co-operating partners that probably can write off or inject more life into the fund which can lead to actually cancellation of these loans and it has happened in many other countries.

Madam Speaker, initiatives such as broadening the sponsors of the facility can also be a good option. We have corporate entities such as the mines, including the National Assembly of Zambia. A number of us in here are graduates either from the University of Zambia or the Copperbelt University. Now, there are more universities so why can we not allow these institutions to directly take over such responsibilities.

For me and on behalf of the people of Chama South, Madam Speaker, let me say that what this Motion is urging the Government is not for it to discontinue the facility, but to restructure it. Times are hard and we have all acknowledged that fact.

Madam Speaker, if you look at our exchange rate today, it is almost approaching K22.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mung’andu: It is K21.2 or 3 to a dollar. This has a ripple effect on the graduates. Their disposal income is getting affected every day because of sustained increase in our essential goods and services in terms of prices. So, it is just fair that or colleagues, especially the hon. Minister of Education, looks into this in terms of lessening the burden on the former students by restructuring their loan repayment. I see no reason, Madam Speaker, for why someone can oppose such an idea. These are students who, tomorrow, will ensure that we come back here and say ‘hear, hear’, by voting for us.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: With this contribution, I am very confident that those who wanted to oppose the Motion will be able to rethink and support this non-controversial Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to debate this Motion.

Mr Mabeta: Hear, hear! Tell them my brother.

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me indicate that this is the matter that us hon. Members on your right take very seriously.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, this is the matter that concerns human capital development.

Mr Mabeta interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kankoyo, please, go back to your seat.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: They might give you a makofi there. So, please leave.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Proceed with your debate, hon. Member for Luena.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, this is the matter we take very seriously and we do not think a serious matter such as this one should be used for politicking.

Madam Speaker, I thank our colleagues for two things. Firstly, they are certainly now reading our manifesto and after reading our manifesto, they have come to learn that this is the matter that we had promised that we were going to deal with.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Secondly, Madam Speaker, they are paying attention to the President’s announcements. They have acknowledged that the President talked about this matter recently and gave directives –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Kindly, avoid the use of the President’s name. You may continue.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, let me remind the nation that not too long ago, the loan system they are talking about, our colleagues came here and proposed that it should be introduced in private universities.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: This is the same loan recovery system that they want revised.

Madam Speaker, let us remind the nation what else they did. We are talking about the loans because before they were introduced, and guess by whom; there was a bursary system where they were no repayment at all. They introduced the loans themselves. On top of introducing the loans, they removed the meal allowances.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: They did not just stop there. They want further to ban student union activities in the universities.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, further, the loans came at such a high interest. The 15 per cent they are talking about was introduced by them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, we do not think that people who already demonstrated they had no idea on what to do should be lecturing us on what to do.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: We agree with them that the way they had introduced it is a very bad idea. It is no wonder we are doing the following:

Madam Speaker, we have systematically been dealing with the issue of financing education in the country starting from the very beginning; from cradle-to-grave. We introduced free education from Grade 1 to Grade 12.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: We have expanded the coverage of skills development throughout the country through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: We have re-introduced the meal allowances which they removed, so crudely, from the suffering children.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Today, our students are getting some relief and we have expanded the coverage of the loans to so many students to ensure that issue of human capital development is addressed comprehensively.

Madam Speaker, my colleague who debated earlier on already indicated that the Government is addressing this matter because we care about our students and our graduates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, we are aware that student financing is a matter that is very touchy and complex even in advanced economies. Even in the United States of America (USA), this is a matter for which they keep trying to find the best way of financing higher education. In the United Kingdom (UK), it is a matter that you find being debated even today. So, what is the Government doing to address this matter? Number one, the Government is reviewing the whole higher education financing system. We do not want this piecemeal approach where you just deal with the repayments or interest alone because that was exactly the previous Government’s approach, which got us to this.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, we want a methodical approach that looks at the whole system and chain.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Amutike: Not plagiarism!

Mr Anakoka: That is why the Government is looking at the mode of financing and various options are already being considered. Once the package is ready, they will hear the announcement and see it being implemented.

Madam Speaker, number two, we are looking at the repayment options. What are the options available in order to alleviate the burden on the shoulders of our students? We are mindful of the fact that if somebody is getting K5,000 and a K2,500 is going towards the repayment of the student loan, that is not a sustainable way of doing things. We are aware of that.

Having said so, Madam Speaker, this Motion is not going to get a nod from us today for a very simple reason; what our colleagues on your left are proposing we should do is way behind. We are way past that point in relooking at this whole student financing system.

Mr Amutike: We are very far!

Mr Anakoka: We are looking at how we can incentivise our graduates in order to increase the compliance periods. We are looking at offering incentives such as, if three members of the same family accessed loans and they are repaying, progressively, you can be giving them lower repayments on account of the fact that there is compliance in that family. You can look at sector segregation. Employees or graduates that go to work in the public sector can get a lower repayment than employees that go to work in the private sector. All these are practical options that are being implemented in some of the jurisdictions around us.

So, Madam Speaker, not to belabour the point, we want to say no to this Motion, but assure the graduates out there that what we are putting in place; what the Government is working on is a far much better option than just tinkering with the repayment period or interest structures. We want to revisit the whole financing system. In fact, if we get to a point where our fiscal base becomes accommodating, it is even possible to get back to where we were giving bursaries. This is because the idea that Hon. Wamunyima was mentioning here of introducing an education levy can actually fill our basket to such an extent that we can go back to what they removed when they were in charge of national affairs.

So, Madam Speaker, we are saying no, not because we do not acknowledge the challenges that our graduates are facing there but because we do not agree with their approach. We have our own approach which we are working on and we will be implementing soon.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, do you want to raise a point of order or what?

I have already advised and guided that we do not have much time. If you have any point that you want to raise and or debate, you can give it to the person who is debating to debate on your behalf. Most of the time, we repeat ourselves. Let us avoid repeating ourselves.

What is the issue hon. Member for Mpika?

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I stand as guided. However, I have been compelled to raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 205 which states that:

“(a) a member commits an act of gross disorderly conduct if the member defies a ruling or direction of a presiding officer.”

Madam Speaker, you actually directed the hon. Member for Kankoyo to go back to his seat. However, he decided to leave the House. That is –

Hon. UPND Members: But he is there!

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Wait I am still–

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, am I protected?

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: No!

Madam Speaker: Order!

You see what we are doing now. We are just wasting time. We are wasting time. The hon. Member for Kankoyo is there seated in his chair.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, at the time you directed him, he left the House.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: But you know that he could not pass behind me.

Mr Kapyanga: He could pass here, Madam Speaker (pointing at the middle isle).

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Oaky, we are wasting time.

Hon. Member for Wusakile, please, you have the Floor.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion which is urging the Government to restructure the student loan repayments for university graduates to make the repayments affordable.

Madam Speaker, I will be very brief because this is a non-controversial Motion. I think, I will speak under three or four minutes. They say knowledge is power. In governance, there is no plagiarism.

Mr Amutike: Apply knowledge.

Mr Kalobo: In governance, there are only checks and balances. In providing checks and balances, you also propose policy alternatives. What we have also is to make sure the Government delivers on its promises. So, there is no plagiarism. I think, plagiarism is only in the education sector, and it is not 100 per cent. There is a percentage where it starts from. So, I just wanted to make that point.

Madam Speaker, policy coherence is critical if as a country, we are to attain Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No. 4 which calls for quality education for all. Currently, we do have our secondary schools that are offloading a lot of school leavers with Grade 12 Certificates. Those who are lucky to access higher education in public universities or higher institutions of learning have four options available. The first is the student’s loan, the second is the bursary, the third is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the fourth is self-sponsorship. This discussion today is centred on student loans.

On a sad note, Madam Speaker, Grade 12 school leavers who opt for students’ loans from the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) are faced with a twin challenge of unemployment, and it is very sad. The other challenge is once they are employed, they become highly indebted poor workers because of the toxic assets they inherit from the student loans, microfinancing loans and bank loans. So, there is a need to restructure these student loans. This is not debatable in the manner you have seen our hon. Colleagues from the Government do it. We, on your left side are just helping the Government deliver what it promised the people.

Madam Speaker, I have a message on my phone which was sent to me on 11^th December, 2022 from one of these graduates employed somewhere on the Copperbelt and was crying. His salary is K4,400 and the Government is deducting K2,000. I was shocked when I heard my hon. Colleague from Lumezi say the interest is at 15 per cent. When I look at the K2,000 which is being deducted from the K4,400, I see that the deduction is almost 50 per cent. So, we are not politicking here, but asking on behalf of these graduates.

Madam Speaker, whichever angle from which we look at the situation, it creates a toxic asset. The Higher Education Scholarship Board is sitting on toxic assets from unemployed graduates. There are also employed graduates who are failing to keep their heads above the water because of these inherited toxic assets arising from the student loan micro finance, as I mentioned. The question we are supposed to be asking ourselves is: Why create a toxic debt when the vision of the Government is free education, including quality education for all? Why?

Madam Speaker, where we are coming from, there was a small population. The Government had to shift to student loans because of the growth of the population. It looked at sustainability and growth of the number of beneficiaries.

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not debate while seated.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, through this Motion, I propose to the Government to increase funding by extending the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to students in public higher learning institutions. It also needs to increase the Student Levy, which is currently seated at 0.5 per cent of the payroll, to 1 per cent, like our colleagues in South Africa.

These are the proposals we are making. I will not be compelled to respond to anyone. I only humbly ask on behalf of the graduates who are suffering out there and are failing to look after their families because of what they are going through and are in a very precarious situation.

Interruptions

Mr Kalabo: I do not care about what you are saying.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, please, order!

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, on behalf of many graduates, who are new entrants on the labour market, we humbly ask this Government to restructure the student loan repayment so that it is sustainable. This will help them pay for their accommodation, clothing and transportation as they go to work. That is the humble appeal to the Government, on behalf of graduates from higher learning institutions in this country, who are new entrants on the labour market.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker: That was a long three minutes.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central Constituency, because of time, we will just allow one person. I do not know whether you want to share your minutes. We have a lot of work. Sorry, I cannot accommodate you.

Hon. Member for Kafulafuta Constituency, you may proceed.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, I must say that I am kind of disappointed to see us debate this matter, which our hon. Colleagues in the ruling party are calling ‘plagiarism’. To me, that simply means they are agreeing with the fact that the Motion is actually good, except that it is not the mover’s original idea.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mulebwa: Madam Speaker, now, in plagiarism, you do not accuse somebody of having plagiarised material if he/she owns up and says he/she got the material from this and that. So, to serve our time, what I would have expected was for our hon. Colleagues in the ruling party to say, well, this is a good idea. We already have it in plan. We are doing this for our Zambian people. We are not doing this for political parties or anybody.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa: So, can we really come down and do what is beneficial for our people because this is why we are here.

Madam Speaker, without wasting much time, let me say that I have seen, in other jurisdictions where students have to pay back their loans, that there are thresholds. For example, once somebody starts to get 10,000 pounds, they can begin to repay their loans. If we are just going to say, “As long as you are a graduate, you have to start paying back, even on a low income”, the Government will lose out in the end because those graduates will begin to move to other jurisdictions where they can avoid paying back these loans.

Madam Speaker, I think that we have wasted your time by debating this matter which is so obvious and, in principle, we all agree is the way it should be.

Madam Speaker, refusing to take such a Motion is like a husband who says, “I cannot take my wife’s advice because she is a woman.” I mean, if you want to build your home, you must be wise enough take your wife’s advice for the benefit of your family. So, I think that this matter should not have been debated the way it was because it is straightforward. We are in agreement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor of this House. I hope I can add light to demystify a very simple issue that we are debating. It has already been stated, and I can only reiterate that this matter, indeed, was a United Party for National Development (UPND) electoral campaign commitment or promise which his Excellency the President of the Republic made.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Avoid mentioning the President. Just mention the party.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, he promised that once he formed Government, he would ensure that he looked at and attended to this matter.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, secondly, once that Government was formed, the President did reiterate his commitment to the same.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, avoid bringing the name of the President into the debate. You should just mention ‘the party’ or ‘the ruling party’ without mentioning the President. I guided other hon. Members in a similar manner and it will not be fair for me to allow you to use the name of the President.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I am mentioning him as to the fact that he stated it and not to influence debate.

Madam Speaker: You may proceed.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you. Once the Government, under his leadership was formed, he did reiterate to walk the talk of his electoral commitment. I am aware that the execution of this issue is already underway by the Government, in accordance with the electoral commitment that was made.

Madam Speaker, the third point I highlight is that, today, it is interesting to see a Motion being moved by a colleague from the Patriotic Front (PF). The truth about the architects of this particular law is self-evident, and is a living testimony that when this party was in the Government, it promulgated policies that were punitive to our people with impunity when we advised it not to do so.

So, I would have been a little bit more tolerant in my perceptions had this Motion been moved by an hon. Member who was not in this House when the previous administration brought about such kinds of policies and defiled all manner of advice, whatsoever.

We brought here, a progressive Motion, such the mealie allowances and they shot it down. We moved a Motion to end political violence and they shot it down. We do not like to walk that trodden path where you defy logic. We want to do the right thing and in doing so, we want to oppose this Motion on two premises. Firstly, the two catchwords that have been used by the mover of the Motion and his hon. Colleague are, “to suspend the repayment” and “to restructure.”

Madam Speaker, when you talk about suspending this repayment, you are placing yourself in an oblivious position. This is law and you cannot suspend law. You can only propose that the Executive amends the law and not to suspend it. We do not suspend laws in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: So, from that premise alone, this particular Motion is ill-conceived in the abundance of illegality to which us, as the Government, found it as a law and that should espouse the rule of law. We do not want to play accomplice all in the name of wanting to amass political appeasement.

Madam Speaker, there are so many bad laws that the Patriotic Front (PF) put in place that we cannot suspend, but we have to, one by one, bring them to this august House for amendment or repeal.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: So, come to this august House and give correct advice. Any advice that is conceived on the promotion of an illegality is null and void, or in fact, void ab initio.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: So, that attempt to request this august House to be diametrically at variance with the foundations of the law will not gain favour in the eyes of this Administration of the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Madam Speaker, secondly, the hon. Members talked about restructuring. We are on all fours on that particular matter. We are speaking the same language. We have agreed to restructure. Madam Speaker, you can tell me the use of asking me or urging me to debate when I am already debating? Does it make sense? It does not. When I am debating, you cannot urge me to begin to debate. So, the Government is already walking the talk. There is no need to push an open door. When you are genuine in your intentions – When you are conceiving an idea to bring a Motion before the Floor of this House, it is important to consult the line ministry so that you do not come up with a Motion that is offside. So, in terms of restructuring, we agree and that is what the Government is already doing. However, since the Government is already in the process, I want to urge my hon. Colleagues to accept and understand that this is too late in the day. The Motion has come too late in the day –

Ms Chisenga left the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mambilima!

She just came in, logged in and walked out.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Wamunyima: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa: So, Madam Speaker, this call for restructuring has come too late in the day. This is a brought-in-dead (BID) Motion.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion –

Mr Wamunyima: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nalolo, I had guided that no points of order for the time being.

Hon. Government Member: He cannot rise on point of order because he has already debated.

Madam Speaker: We have to manage time.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order as the seconder of this Motion.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor, who is my elder brother, has contravened Standing Order No. 65, on being factual. When you look at this Motion, it has nothing to do with suspending repayments. The Motion talks about restructuring. So, the hon. Member on the Floor is not speaking to the Motion. He says that this is already being done. This means that he agrees with the Motion. So, is the hon. Member in order to talk about suspending repayments which was being referred to because the then Opposition United Party for National Development (UPND) President talked about suspending repayments? That was the reference.

I seek your serious guidance for the avoidance of misleading the greater nation, which is listening to this very serious Motion.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister for Southern Province was quoting the mover of the Motion on the points that he brought out. So, he was just responding to those points. He is in order.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I was just making a point that this Motion has come too late in the day because the Government is already working on what is contained in the Motion. This should also give us an opportunity to evaluate the sincerity with which political leaders conduct their political affairs. If just a year ago, you were a proponent of this Motion. it is like creating a problem and then you come outside and start pretending to be the one holding the solution.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: The same way they messed up the economy, they want to come out and start talking about the high cost of living. This level of political deception where they want to misinform the nation in order to amass political visibility should come to an end. They must be sincere leaders of morality. What they stood for yesterday should be what they should stand for. Otherwise, we largely support the content of this Motion. However, we are voting against the illegality and the pretence with which it is associated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, loan or debt restructuring refers to changing the existing loan terms to help the borrower manage the repayment of loan principal and interest due. Loan restructuring is possible in multiple ways such as changing the repayment period, which is usually extended, changing the repayable amount, generally reducing the overall balance owed, changing the number of instalments previous agreed upon typically and add to the number and changing the rate of interest once charged, usually lowering the interest rate, and the provision of additional loans.

Madam Speaker, currently, loans are payable over a maximum ten-year period with 15 per cent interest amortised annually, which is seemingly high in the region. Whoever was pegging this can be equal to a criminal.

Madam Speaker, given the above, the current interest rate is a heavy burden for most loan beneficiaries. To mitigate this position and improve the management of loan recoveries, the Government is already considering many options.

Madam Speaker, the measures to actualise the presidential directives, which are contained in the concept notes of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB), the Ministry of Education, and the Government are seriously considering these proposals.

Madam Speaker, the proposals that I am talking about came as result of the President’s directive recently.

Madam Speaker, to show that I am ahead of them (looking to the hon. Members on the left) …

Hon. Government Member: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: … they should never attempt to bring it because they will never catch me. To show –

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister.

May the hon. Minister debate through the presiding officer.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, to show them that I am beyond them, they should check what they have been bringing here. The other time, they brought a Motion to reintroduce sports in schools and I told them that sports activities are already there. The day they were debating here, children were in Kitwe for sports. The Motion failed because sports activities are already there. They brought another one and I caught them napping. This concept by HELSB was brought on 23^rdFebruary and my office received it on 24^th February, this year containing everything that we are talking about regarding restructuring.

Madam Speaker, two weeks later, the leaders of those who are seeking the restructuring came to my office and I told them what we were doing.

Madam Speaker, two weeks ago, the leaders of those seeking restructuring came to my office and I told them what we were doing. They saw the concept note from HESLB and they were happy. I asked them how they had lived with people who overburdened them in that way. They just said that they were a bad government. In fact, –

Ms Chisenga entered the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Mulunda: Mambilima!

Madam Speaker: Welcome back, hon. Member for Mambilima.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: So, we must know what we want to do. You never felt pity for those children. How can you charge 15 per cent? I have never known people like this, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Where was the interest for the students? 2016; today is 2022. I will reintroduce meal allowance for the children who are still in school. Then today, I was checking on the overburdened workers. How do you milk a cow to such an extent? As my hon. Colleague said, today you think you can urge me. The President already urged me and that is what I am doing. I do not need you to urge me.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, I am self-propelling. The President told me that he does not want to see any child sitting on the floor, and you have seen the way we are constructing desks. So, I am already way ahead. I do not need anyone to urge me. I am a self-propelled individual. The President urged me and I have already responded. The paper is now in my office and my officers are working on it. Very soon, I will take it to Cabinet where the one who pronounced those words presides.

With those words, Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa rose.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

He has the right. Let him wind up.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I pray that one day we will reach a point where we will be apolitical when debating Motions meant to help the general citizenry. If a Motion is raised by a person from the opposition party, it should be supported because it is genuine. Similarly, if the Ruling Party raises a Motion, the Opposition should support it because it is well intended.

Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Imanga Wamunyima, Hon. Mung’andu, Hon. Pavyuma and Hon. Mulebwa for the manner in which they debated. I reluctantly thank the hon. Member for Katuba because of the lack of clarity in the way he debated, and he clearly demonstrated that he does not understand plagiarism. Plagiarism was clearly defined by Hon. Mulebwa. When someone talks about something and fails to quote the person who said it, that is plagiarism. However, when one cites something, that is not plagiarism.

Madam Speaker, sometimes, it is surprising to see how hon. Members like the hon. Member for Luena keep saying, “we”. Backbenchers need to understand their role in Parliament. The people in the Government are known and they are few. So, it is important to say that the Government is doing this and not to say “we”.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, wind up debate. Do not start attacking your colleagues.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I thank my brother, Hon. Anakoka, for the manner in which he agreed by disagreeing with the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister for Southern Province said that when we talk about the suspension of repayments, then, we do not know what we are talking about. It is not me he is telling. Indirectly, he is telling the person who said it. We know him; I will not mention him. He is, basically, saying that the person who posted it on his Facebook did not know what he was talking about. He has advised me, and I think I will write to him to say his Minister said that he did not know what he was talking about.

Madam Speaker: Wind up debate, hon. Member.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, Hon. Mweetwa, the Minister for Southern Province, talked about how the Patriotic Front (PF) Government introduced this Act that has resulted in financial misery for graduates, and said that we should not talk about it.

Madam Speaker, policy formulation has five stages that is identify the issue, placement on the agenda, formulation of the policy itself, policy implementation and the fifth step is to evaluate the policy to see how it is working. After implementing that policy, they were supposed to observe how the graduates were feeling after the deductions. The moment you see that the policy is affecting the students negatively, you need to quickly intervene so that you make corrections for it to start operating properly. However, the hon. Minister of Education said the people who introduced this policy are criminals. Who is more criminal? When this policy was being implemented, it was not known that it would affect the students and graduates negatively, but now it has been identified and we have gotten feedback through the evaluation process. So, the person who has seen that it is affecting the students and graduates negatively, yet has not acted on it is more criminal.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

There are no points of order at this stage. He is winding up then after that –

Hon. Member wind up, do not bring in new issues.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, without bringing in any new issue, the person who identifies that a policy is a problem and fails to act is more criminal than the person who brings the policy. The students he was talking about actually came to me and they said, “we talked to the Minister, and I said, what did he say. He said what can those do. They are from the bad government; worst government since 1964. So, I said okay, no problem. I will go to Parliament so that we can discuss this issue.” So, –

Madam Speaker: In law, we call that hearsay. Stick to facts. Do not bring in hearsay.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Education and the hon. Minister for Southern Province said that they were already doing something, we needed to see evidence. We are not magicians to know what is happening in the ministry. The hon. Minister should have been proactive and issued a ministerial statement in the House to inform hon. Members. We were not going to be foolish by bringing this Motion.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chinsali!

Please, withdraw the word ‘foolish’.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘foolish’. I replace it by saying that we were not going to be alluded by a sense of good judgement as it eluded the hon. Member for Katuba.

Madam Speaker: You were told to withdraw and now you are debating. Withdraw the word. Stick to what you are being told to do, hon. Member.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the cementing that I was doing.

Madam Speaker: Anyway, let us make progress.

Question that this House urges the Government to restructure the student loan repayments for university graduates to make the repayments affordable put and negatived.

_______

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Hon. Madam Justice Prof Mulela Margaret Munalula; to serve as President of the Constitutional Court, Mr Arnold Mweetwa Shilimi; to serve as Deputy President of the Constitutional Court, Hon. Madam Justice Maria Mapani Kawimbe, Hon. Mr Justice Kenneth Mulife and Mr Mudford Zachariah Mwandenga; to serve as judges of the Constitutional Court, and Hon. Mr Justice Just Mwiinde Siavwapato to serve as Judge President of the Court of Appeal, Hon. Madam Justice Abha Nayar Patel, SC., and Hon. Madam Justice Yvonne Chembe to serve as Judges of the Court of Appeal, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House, on Monday, 27th March, 2023.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): I beg to second the Motion, Madam.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the appointment of the nominees is made pursuant to Article 140 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia, which provides for the Republican President, on recommendation of the Judicial Service Commission, to appoint judges subject to ratification by the National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes the pivotal role that the Judiciary plays in the dispensation of justice, ensuring good governance and upholding the rule of law in the country. In this regard, your Committee resolved that only competent persons with the requisite qualifications, integrity, diligence, eminence and sound character should be appointed to serve in the Judiciary.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes, with satisfaction, that all the State security agencies that appeared before it indicated that there were no adverse security concerns against the nominees. Additionally, all the witnesses, except one, submitted that all the nominees were suitably qualified and possessed the requisite qualifications and experience to serve in their respective appointments. In that regard, the witness supported the appointment of the nominees.

Madam Speaker, a few witnesses raised concerns on four of the nominees and your Committee made the following observations on them:

Hon Madam justice Prof Mulela Margaret Munalula

Your Committee noted that one stakeholder indicated that there was a complaint against the nominee for alleged disregard and failure by the Constitutional Court to interrogate the complainant’s application for admission as amicus curiae. Your Committee observed, as did the witness, that investigations into the complaint were still ongoing and that the complaint was not against the nominee, as an individual, but against the full Bench. It, therefore, cannot prevent the nominee from appointment as President of the Constitutional Court;

Mr Arnold Mweetwa Shilimi

Your Committee noted that one stakeholder did not support the appointment of the nominee alleging that he did not have specialised training or experience in human rights or Constitutional Law, as required by Article 141 (1) (b). Your Committee, however, established that one of the core modules of the nominee’s master’s degree in Public International Law focused extensively on human rights while two other modules in International Law of Peace and the Law on Armed Conflict, Use of Force and Peace-keeping also contained matters central to human rights discourse. In that regard, your Committee is of the view that the nominee meets the requirement of Article 141 (1) (b).

Hon. Mr Justice Kenneth Mulife

Your Committee noted a concern by some stakeholders that there was a lawsuit commenced by the nominee’s former research advocate against him. Your Committee, however, observed that the matter was before the courts of law and the nominee cannot be precluded from being appointed as he is presumed innocent until proven guilty; and

Hon Madam Justice Abha Nayar Patel, SC

Your Committee noted the following concerns expressed by some stakeholders:

your Committee noted a concern expressed by one of the stakeholders relating to a suspicious transaction on the nominee’s bank account. The committee, however, observed that the suspicious transaction report, in itself, did not amount to any wrong doing or illegality by the nominee, and
your Committee further notes a concern by one of the stakeholders that the nominee’s husband was using her official vehicle for his private business, contrary to regulations guiding the use of official Government vehicles. Your Committee, however, observed that the matter is the subject of an on-going investigation of abuse of office that can be handled administratively. Therefore, the matter cannot preclude the nominee from being appointed as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Moreover, the nominee is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that this august House ratifies the presidential appointment of Hon. Madam Justice Prof. Mulela Margaret Munalula; to serve as President of the Constitutional Court, Mr Arnold Mweetwa Shilimi; to serve as Deputy President of the Constitutional Court, Hon. Madam Justice Maria Mapani Kawimbe, Hon. Mr Justice Kenneth Mulife, Mr Mudford Zachariah Mwandenga; to serve as judges of the Constitutional Court and Hon. Mr Justice Just Mwiinde Siavwapa; to serve as Judge President of the Court Of Appeal, Hon. Madam Justice Abha Nayar Patel, SC., and Hon. Madam Justice Yvonne Chembe; to serve as judges of the Court Of Appeal.

Madam Speaker, finally, your Committee wishes to express its gratitude to you and the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice and services rendered to it during its deliberations. Your Committee further thanks all the witnesses for their valuable submissions, which assisted it to arrive at its recommendation.

Madam Speaker, it is now my pleasure to call upon this honourable House to ratify the appointments before it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Halwiindi: Now, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to second the Motion. I want to also thank the mover of the Motion for moving the Motion so competently.

Madam Speaker, the mover of the Motion has sufficiently covered most of the notable points which your Committee noted in support of all the nominees. The nominees were of very high academic and professional qualification. They also exhibit a lot of experience both in public and private institutions.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion, I wish to reiterate your Committee’s observation that the appointed persons are very competent and of high integrity. We interrogated all the witnesses who came before us and all the nominees appeared before us. In so doing, your Committee noted, even as debated by the mover of the Motion, that some of the allegations that were levelled against them were proven to be merely misunderstandings. I want to bring up the issue of Mr Mwandenga, which I think the mover of the Motion did not mention. There was an allegation that there was a case before him of abuse of office that pertains to employment, but from the witnesses, we heard that the commissioners do not participate in the employment process and that consultants are brought from outside the commission to conduct the interviews. The commission only receives complaints after everything is done and at the time of appointment and of the interview, the commission had not even received the submission from the committee that dealt with the employment. So, I noted that your Committee felt that there was no way the nominee could be excluded from being ratified because he was not directly involved in the appointment or recruitment of the personnel.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also noted, with gratitude, of course, that the Constitution requirement in Article 259 of the Constitution relating to gender equality was fulfilled. There were eight nominees, and of the eight, four were female and four were male, and for that, we really commend the appointing authority.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, your Committee also noted that, Article 259 (1)(c), of course, recommends that the youth and people living with disabilities be included in the appointments. However, even if there is no youth among the appointees, there is also an issue of experience and integrity that your Committee noted comes on board when the appointing authority is considering appointing people to hold such very important offices. So, as a Committee, we took note to also give a benefit of doubt on the need for high integrity and experience when appointing people to such very important positions.

Madam Speaker, I also want to mention that one nominee, as mentioned by the mover of the Motion, who is Hon. Madam Justice Abha Nayar Patel, SC., has an issue of movement of money in her accounts. We want to urge this House that, as judges, they are not compelled by law, as at now, to make sure that they declare their assets or finances. So, we are urging this House to come up with a law that will compel them to declare their assets and their finances as well if we are to invite the Financial Intelligent Centre (FIC) to come on board to start giving us the statement of affairs on what assets and finances they have. So, they are not compelled, as at now. If we would want to know the nominees as we are appointing to these offices, it is our duty to see to it that such a law is brought before this House.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to extend my gratitude to the Chairperson of this Committee, who ably conducted his Chairmanship very well; he was apolitical and very mature. I also extend my gratitude to the whole Committee for being very wonderful.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, your Committee was impartial and did not have any issues to do with favouring anyone. It had to make sure that every issue that was brought before it was interrogated well in order to ensure that the people who were being put in these offices were of high integrity, which is going to save this country by ensuring that the human rights of its people are not abrogated. I beg to second.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Looking at the time, it is now 1844 hours and we are supposed to adjourn at 1910 hours. So, I do not know how we will manage our time. However, I urge hon. Members not to repeat themselves as they debate.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me a chance to make my comments on the Motion moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, there is a point of order. My worry is that we do not have much time and then we are having these points of order. What is the point of order, hon. Member for Lukashya?

Mr Chisanga: Madam Speaker, thank you. It is a very important point of order, as it lies at the centre of the debate that is about to ensue.

Madam Speaker, it is common knowledge that this matter of the nominees is, currently, before the courts of law, the Constitutional Court, in particular. I rise on Standing Order No. 65(2)(c), which prohibits the House from debating what is before the courts of law.

Madam Speaker, are we in order to continue debating this matter before the court determines it?

Madam Speaker: To my knowledge, we have not received any order restraining us from discharging our functions. So, as far as we are concerned, we are not discussing issues before the court; we are discussing our responsibility and our mandate, as given by the Constitution. So, we can proceed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I want to place on record that we, on this side, have difficulties supporting this report in its totality due to a number of reasons that I am going to highlight. One of the reasons is of public knowledge.

Madam Speaker, indeed, this institution enjoys exclusive cognisance. The Business of the House we transact here cannot be interfered with just as we should also not interfere with what is obtaining in the other arms of the Government. You have guided that there is no report and I hope we will not get caught up in this matter, as an institution.

Madam Speaker, the other reason is some of the issues that have been highlighted in the report. On the nominee to the position of President of the Constitutional Court, Hon. Madam Justice Prof. Mulela Munalula, ideally, it would have been straightforward for her to take up this position, knowing that this nominee has been at the institution as vice-president. It should have been logical that she takes up the top position of that institution. However, the issues that have been raised cast some sort of cloud on the nominee.

Madam Speaker, on page 8 of the report, the Judicial Complaints Commission (JCC), in its submission, acknowledged that there was one pending complaint against the nominee and, in the view of the commission, this was an adverse report on the nominee. The JCC said that there was a complaint which was made against the nominee, but in the view of your Committee, this does not affect the nominee’s suitability to take up the position because this complaint was against the whole Bench.

Madam Speaker, it must be noted that even though the complaint was not in her personal capacity, the nominee was the topmost person on the Bench. Therefore, when a complaint is raised in this manner, she cannot escape responsibility in so far as this complaint is concerned.

Madam Speaker, we are reading your report –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: I think the hon. Minister of Justice will respond later rather than respond while seated. The report has highlighted these matters and we have to speak to them. That is our role.

Madam Speaker, these are challenges we would not want to see relating to people who are going to run the most critical institutions in so far as the dispensation of justice is concerned.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is on the nominee to become the Vice-President of the Constitutional Court. The submission from the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), to which this nominee, by the name Mr Arnold Mweetwa Shilimi, is proposed for the position of vice-president submits that:

“The LAZ President supported by a State Counsel, submitted and explained that Mr Arnold Mweetwa did not qualify for appointment as deputy president of the Constitutional Court because he lacked requisite specialised training, or experience in Human Rights or Constitutional Law, provided under Article 141, Sub-Article 1(b) of the Constitution. He added that the nominee’s area of celebrated expertise was in Corporate and Commercial Law and not Constitutional Law. The President further informed your Committee that the office of the Deputy President of the Constitutional Court, which was central to the court’s mandate and to the governance of the country, must be occupied by someone of a proven experience in matters of Human Rights and Constitutional Law”

It is your report, Madam Speaker. So, we have a challenge here. If the appointing authority had taken care, there are members of the Bench who are already serving as Constitutional Court judges. It would have been prudent to pick one out of those who are already experienced.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You can question, but we are reading the report of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, it is these challenges that place a cloud on nominees. For us to ignore this, we are doing injustice to the work that we are given, as Members of Parliament. So, when issues like these are highlighted, we have every reason to speak to them.

So, on our side, Madam Speaker, we find this a challenge. Like I am saying, it should not have been a problem. Earlier on, I said that had it not been for the cloud that is being placed on the nominee to become President of the Constitutional Court, it could have been straight forward, from vice-president to president of the court. So, identify one of the senior judges already sitting on the Constitutional Court Bench to take up the vice-presidency. So –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, they shall come here. They can question, but we were also there –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

You like addressing the people on the other side –

Mr Kampyongo: But you see, Madam Speaker –

Mr Mundubile: But he is not being protected.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: If they are saying, “question”, you always say, “question”. I thought that was an acceptable way of doing things.

Mr Kampyongo: No, but they are using other exclamations.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, on my right, we have work to do and I want to finish this work today.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, they can use the arrogance of numbers; we do not mind, but we have to speak to the issues, as they stand and as they come out. They must know that yes, they are there today, but tomorrow they might be this side or out. This is how it is. We were also there and we are now here.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: So, what is constant –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: The only thing that is constant is the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, the manner in which you are debating is promoting disorder in the House. Let us stick to issues that we are debating.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, these are national institutions and we all have a responsibility to ensure that the people who are being sent to these institutions have no clouds hanging on their heads because the decisions they will be making in the dispensation of justice of this country are very critical and are beyond any one of us here.

Madam Speaker, with the reasons given, like I did say, we find it challenging to support the adoption of this report in it is totality. I would not speak about other nominees that do not have negative issues.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the good people of Petauke, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the issue we are debating today.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to start by saying that the names we are looking at today are being appointed by the Head of State and it is the prerogative of His Excellency the President to make appointments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: At any given time, there is only one President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: We should, therefore, learn to support each other ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: … because even me when I become President and some of the hon. Members’ …

Laugher

Mr J. E. Banda: … names come for ratification, members who will be sitting at that particular time should support them and and agree to them being ratified. Maybe, I will appoint the hon. Minister of Justice, as Director of the Anti-corruption Commission (ACC) just like that.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: So, we should learn to support each other. The people of Petauke are supporting these names a 100 per cent because they know that the time for their hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central to have that prerogative will come…

Laughter

Mr J. E Banda: … and then, we will need support.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Not too long from now; it will come.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, however, here is the issue. When this building from which we are debating and making high profile decisions was built, it was built by using materials from all over the provinces.

Hon. Members: All over the country.

Mr J. E. Banda: The materials came from all over the country. Each constituency contributed towards the provision of the materials to the building of this House. So, on behalf of the good people of Petauke, we are humbly asking that the next time, the hon. Minister of Justice and the appointing authority bring names for ratification, please, we want to see the same thing that happened when Parliament was being built. That is how we want to see the names appearing because each province has a school from Grade 1 to Grade 12 and also universities and colleagues. So, we believe that each constituency has graduates who can take up even those positions. So, next time, we want to see the same thing that happened when this House was built.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, in our country, we have people living with disabilities who are educated. So, we are supposed to see their names. Next time when we come, we want to see the names of people living with disabilities on the list so that even they feel that they are also Zambians. They should also be encouraged when they are going to school that one day, they would become a Judge of this country or a President of the Constitutional Court. This will give encouragement even to a young boy or girl living with disabilities. It will serve as an encouragement.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Further, Madam Speaker, let us not forget the youth. When it comes to choosing who to lead the country, the youth are the majority, but when it comes to ratifications, the youth are not there. So, next time, the hon. Minister of Justice should ensure that the youth are included because we have youth who are educated and qualified to take up such kinds of jobs. It is unfortunate that the youth are not nominated. However, next time, it should be ensured that youths are included because we want to support you so that you can support us when our time comes. So, please, do not forget. Kwasu ku Petauke tukamba kuti, “Kaselo wela, kaselo nkoya,” meaning, today, when you help me, tomorrow, I should help you or vice versa.

With those few remarks Madam Speaker, we say thank you, but forget to come and support us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House relating to the ratification of judges of the Constitutional Court and the Court of Appeal.

Madam Speaker, in the interest of time, I will shorten my debate significantly. Let me begin by acknowledging the work done by your Select Committee and its submission, indeed, as put forward by the Chairperson of the Select Committee, hon. Member for Kanchibiya, and the seconder, the hon. Member for Kabwe Central.

The crux of the matter, Madam Speaker, is that your Select Committee has done an extremely good job, but more importantly, has recommended that the individuals, wholesomely, be ratified by this honourable House.

Madam Speaker, if one looks at the report in its entirety rather than selecting specific provisions, one would see the objectivity and professionalism that was put into arriving at the conclusion that the Select Committee did. If one just looks at the provisions of Article 140 and 141 of the Constitution, it is clear to see that each of the nominees put forward, for both the Constitutional Court and the Court of Appeal, meet the requirements prescribed in the law for them to ascend to the positions that they were nominated for by the appointing authority. That should be the overriding principle upon which this House must make a determination whether or not to ratify the appointees and not any secondary matter and matters which are subjective in their nature. Why do I call some of these matters subjective?

It has been suggested, Madam Speaker, on the Floor of this House, for instance, that because Madam Justice Munalula has a complaint pending before the Judicial Complaints Commission (JCC), she is not amenable for appointment. However, when one looks objectively at this particular submission, one would, first of all, realise that there has been no indictment by the JCC against that particular Judge in order to warrant her being found guilty, to use the term loosely, and to be precluded from participating, as a citizen, in this particular opportunity. There is nothing whatsoever. Had there been a decision of the JCC, which found her wanting, then, maybe, that argument would be tenable. However, as we speak now, there is no decision. There is no judicial process in this country or even quasi-judicial process which results in a person being punished even before a decision is made. So, that argument must be parked if we are using an objective consideration of these particular candidates, and speaking of Madam Munalula, in particular.

What is more, Madam Speaker, we cannot ignore the experience of forty-years since admission at the Bar of this particular candidate to lead a court as important as the Constitutional Court. In fact, I am being advised, on the Floor of the House, that it is before some or many of us in this House were born that this experience has been brought.

Madam Speaker, more to the point, the Judge in issue has spent several years on the Bench on the Constitutional Court, having been appointed even prior to this appointing authority nominating her for a higher role. She is definitely suitable.

Madam Speaker, there was also a submission with regards to, soon to be, Justice Shilimi, as to whether or not he has the requisite qualifications. The submission by the Law Association of Zambia was quoted to that effect.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution is very clear. It does not prescribe the particular qualification that one must have. It simply says a qualification in Human Rights Law or Constitutional Law. It does not prescribe that it must be a masters, a Doctor of Philosophy (PHD) or anything of that nature.

Madam Speaker, your Committee ably looked into the question as to whether this individual has got the requisite qualification and found, …

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Haimbe: … if you read the report, that he undertook a course at Cambridge in which there was a module in Human Rights Law. That qualifies, in terms of the broad language that is used in Article 141 of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, again, these subjective matters should not be looked at. This individual has over thirty-six years post qualification experience and, admittedly, even from those who debated earlier, he has a long track record in practicing law at various levels and in administrative functions. Anyone who knows how these courts operate will understand that the Deputy Judge President of the court plays an administrative function rather than mere a judicial one.

Madam Speaker, I can go on and on, however, we have business to conduct in this House. I must conclude that the appointing authority took great care in determining who is to ascend to these particular positions and, in fact, as the hon. Member for Petauke Central submitted, there is a national character to these appointments when you look at the Constitutional Court and the Court of Appeal combined and, in fact, the High Court as well.

Madam Speaker, my final submission is that may this honourable House ratify these stellar citizens of Zambia, who have been put forward to take up these important roles.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, you wind up debate in two minutes.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Justice, the Vice Chairperson of your Committee and all the hon. Members of the Committee that whilst we interacted with the witnesses and nominees, we went further to interrogate the Curriculum Vitae (CVs) as presented before us.

Madam Speaker, conscious is very clear that the report presented before you is as it should be and we call on this House to support the recommendations of your Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Question that, the House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Hon Madam Justice Prof Mulela Margaret Munalula to serve as President of the Constitutional Court, Mr Arnold Mweetwa Shilimi to serve as Deputy President of the Constitutional Court, Hon Madam Justice Maria Mapani Kawimbe, Hon Mr Justice Kenneth Mulife and Mr Mudford Zachariah Mwandenga, to serve as Judges of the Constitutional Court and Hon Mr Justice Just Mwiinde Siavwapato serve as Judge President of the Court of Appeal, Hon Madam Justice Abha Nayar Patel, SC, and Hon Madam Justice Yvonne Chembe to serve as Judges of the Court of Appeal, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House, on Monday, 27th March, 2023 put and the House voted.

Ayes – (80)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr J. E. Banda

Mr Chanda

Mr J. Chibuye

Mr Chikote

Mr Chilundika

Mr Chinkuli

Mr Chinyama

Ms Chisangano

Mr Haimbe

Ms Halwiindi

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Mr Kabuswe

Dr Kalila

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kanengo

Ms Kasanda

Mr A. Katakwe

Mr Kolala

Mr Lihefu

Mr Lubozha

Mr Lufuma

Mr Lumayi

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr M. Mapani

Ms Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Mbao

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mposha

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Mulebwa

Mr Mulunda

Mr Mulusa

Ms Munashabantu

Mr Munsanje

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Musumali

Mr Mutati

Mr Mutelo

Mrs D. Mwamba

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mrs Nalumango

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkandu

Mr Nkombo

Mr Nkulukusa

Mr Nyambose

Mr Nzovu

Mr P. S. Phiri

Ms Sabao

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simushi

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Mr Syakalima

Mr Tayengwa

Mr Wamunyima

Noes – (26)

Mr Chala

Mr C. Chibuye

Mr Chilangwa

Mr Chisanga

Ms Chisenga

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chonde

Mr Fube

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Katotobwe

Mr B. Mpundu

Mr C. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Emmanuel Musonda

Mr Mwila

Ms Nyemba

Mr P. Phiri

Mr Simumba

Mr Twasa

Mr Munir Zulu

Abstentions – (02)

Mr Kandafula

Ms S. Mwamba

Question accordingly agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1919 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 30^th March, 2023.

____________

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