Wednesday, 15^th March, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

RULING BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

REPRIMAND BEFORE THE BAR OF THE HOUSE OF MR R. C. MUTALE, MP

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I now order Hon. R. C. Mutale, MP, to go and stand behind the Bar of the House. I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s Mace and go and stand behind him.

Mr R. C. Mutale was escorted to the Bar by the Sergeant-At-Arms.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Thursday, 1^st December, 2022, when the House was in Committee of Supply considering Head 76 – Ministry of Youth, Sports and Arts, and Hon. E. Nkandu, Minister of Youth, Sports and Arts was on the Floor, Hon. G. G. Nkombo, Minister of Local Government and Rural Development raised a point of order. The point of order was against a Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Member of Parliament and was raised pursuant to Standing Order 226, which relates to challenging a decision of a presiding officer. In the point of order, Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP, enquired whether the hon. Member was in order to remain in the Chamber in defiance of an order by the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker for him to leave the Chamber.

 

In his immediate response, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker, sitting as the Chairperson of the Committee of Supply, reserved his ruling to enable him study the matter.

I have since studied the matter, and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, let me state from the outset that Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP, did not mention the name of the hon. Member against whom the point of order was raised. I, however, had recourse to the footage of the proceedings of the House for that day, which conclusively showed that the hon. Member referred to in the point of order was Mr R. C. Mutale, hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo Constituency.

Therefore, in line with parliamentary practice and procedure, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, in order to get his side of the story. In response, Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, denied having challenged the decision of the Chairperson ordering him to leave the House. He stated that the verbatim record did not show the Chairperson mention his name or constituency when he made the order. He added that had the Chairperson been referring to him, he would have called him by name, as required by Standing Order 204. He further submitted that the verbatim record also showed that Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP, did not mention his name when raising his point of order.

Hon. Members, as earlier indicated, I had an opportunity to view the relevant video footage, which showed the circumstances that gave rise to the point of order. Prior to the point of order being raised and while Hon. E. Nkandu, MP, was on the Floor, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker asked Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, to leave the Chamber for debating while seated. Instead of abiding by the directive, Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, remained in his seat, and the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker called upon Hon. E. Nkandu, MP, to resume his debate.

 

Approximately five minutes later, while Hon. E. Nkandu, MP, was still on the Floor, Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP raised the point of order. While Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP was still raising his point of order, Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, rose and walked out of the Chamber. This sequence of events clearly shows that it was Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, who had disregarded the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker’s order for him to leave the Chamber. In fact, the hon. Member remained seated in his seat for more than five minutes after he had been ordered to leave the Chamber. He was only prompted to leave once Hon. G. G. Nkombo raised his point of order.

Hon. Members, the point of order by Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP, raises the issue of an hon. Member showing disrespect to a presiding officer by defying his or her directive to leave the Chamber. Section 19 (d) and (e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, is instructive in this regard. It provides as follows:

“19.     Any person shall be guilty of an offence who –…

1. shows disrespect in speech or manner towards the Speaker; or
2. commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.”

Additionally, Standing Order 205 (a) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, is also instructive. It states as follows:

 “205.  A member commits an act of gross disorderly conduct if the member –

1. defies a ruling or direction of a presiding officer; ...”

Further, eminent authors on parliamentary practice and procedure, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Seventh Edition, (New Delhi, Lok Sabha, 2016) on page 303, have this to say:

“Disobedience to the orders of the House, whether such orders are of general application or require a particular individual to do or abstain from doing a particular act is a contempt of the House. Disobedience to the orders of a Committee of the House is treated as a contempt of the House itself, provided the order disobeyed is within the scope of the Committee’s authority. To prevent, delay, obstruct or interfere with the execution of the orders of the House or a Committee thereof is also a contempt of the House. Examples of contempt are neglecting or refusing to withdraw from the House when directed to do so.”

Hon. Members, my predecessor, the Rt. Hon. Dr Patrick Matibini, SC, had occasion to consider a similar matter in the case of Brian Mundubile vs Gary Nkombo (National Assembly Parliamentary Debates of 12^th November, 2019). In that matter, Hon. Brian M. Mundubile, MP, Government Chief Whip, as he then was, lodged a complaint against Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP, for his disrespectful conduct towards the then First Deputy Speaker, Hon. Catherine Namugala, MP, sitting as Chairperson of the Committee of Supply. The matter was referred to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services. After due consideration and due to the gravity of the complaint against Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP, the House resolved to suspend him from the House for a period of ten days.

Hon. Members, from the foregoing authorities, it is clear that by remaining in the Chamber after the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker had ordered him to leave, Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, defied an order of a presiding officer. This conduct went against the dignity, integrity and decorum of the House, and amounted to a breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House.

In considering the punishment to mete out on Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, I took into account the fact that he had committed gross disorderly conduct. I further noted the precedent where such misconduct carried the sanction of suspension. I further noted that, in his response, Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, had not shown any remorse for his conduct, but instead, denied having defied the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker’s directive.

I, however, considered that he is a first offender, and that the video footage showed that he subsequently obeyed the order of the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker to leave the House. Consequently, I have decided to exercise leniency and reprimand Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, at the Bar of the Assembly in accordance with Section 28 (1) (c) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act.

I now turn to address Mr R. C. Mutale, MP.

Mr Mutale, MP, your decision to defy the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker’s order for you to leave the Chamber amounted to showing intentional disrespect towards a presiding officer, which is a breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House. Such conduct is unbefitting of an hon. Member of Parliament. Further, as a senior hon. Member of this august House, who once served as Deputy Chief Whip, you ought to know that this is a House of honour, decorum and dignity, and, as such, your conduct ought to be exemplary and above reproach.

Ordinarily, your conduct would have attracted a more severe punishment, but, since you left the House upon the point of order being raised, I have elected to exercise leniency on you. I reiterate that I will not tolerate gross indiscipline and misconduct from you or, indeed, any hon. Member of this House. The honour, decorum and dignity of the House must be protected and preserved at all times. I do trust that you will reflect seriously on your conduct and, in future, desist from conduct unbefitting an hon. Member of the House.

I now order you, Mr R. C. Mutale, MP, to read your apology and, thereafter, resume your seat.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to address the House through this apology.

Madam Speaker, you rightly put it that I was a Deputy Speaker of this –

Interruptions

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: I was a Deputy Whip of the House and I know the procedures of the House very well.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I have the apology before me. Please just read what is on the paper without wasting much time.

Mr Mutale: Yes, Madam Speaker, I am about to read.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Go ahead.

Mr Mutale: I just have a comment about the unilateral decisions that the Speaker is given. Let this House always take matters to the Committee on Privileges and Absences, so that hon. Members are afforded –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

If you are not in agreement with reading the apology, Mr Mutale, you can sit down.

Mr Mutale: I will read the apology, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, go ahead straight to the apology.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I, Remember Chanda Mutale, Member of Parliament for Chitambo Constituency, in my personal capacity, do hereby unreservedly apologise to this august House, and to you Madam Speaker, for my failure to obey the order of the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker to leave the Chamber on Thursday, 1^st December, 2022.

Madam Speaker, having reflected on my conduct, which amounts to gross disorderly conduct and contempt of the House, I wish to sincerely apologise to this august House, and in particular to the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker, for my failure to comply with his order to leave the House.

Madam, I have carefully listened to your guidance and appreciate the leniency exercised by the House. I assure you, and the House, that I shall endeavour to comply with the rules and procedures of this House. To this end, I shall, henceforth, conduct myself in a more responsible and dignified manner.

Madam Speaker, I thank you very much.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. You may take your seat, Hon. Member.

Mr Mutale resumed his seat.

_______

MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR KAFWAYA, HON. MEMBER FOR LUNTE, ON THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, AND THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON THE REFUSAL OF THE PERMANENT SECRETARY IN THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE TO AVAIL DOCUMENTS TO THE AUDITOR-GENERAL FOR AUDIT

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to rise on a matter of urgent public importance in line with Standing Order 134. This matter is directed at Her Honour, The Vice-President, as Leader of Government Business in the House, and at the hon. Minister of Agriculture to the extent of his authority over his permanent secretary (PS).

Madam Speaker, in the Constitution of Zambia, Article 249 (1) establishes the office of the Audio-General, and Article 250 establishes its functions. The Public Audit Act specifies the conduct of the Auditor-General. Section 73 of the Public Financial Management Act, 2018, determines the power of the Auditor General in terms of access to systems, documents and any information that may be required in order to produce that constitutional report.

Madam Speaker, the Audio-General is required to report to this House and the President, on the same day, on the findings of a public audit. In other words, the audit report is constitutional.

Madam Speaker, today’s headline in The Mast Newspaper reads, “Dick ‘Abandons’ Agric Audit as PS Refuses to Avail Fertiliser Documents.”

Madam Speaker, dick being referred to here (points at newspaper) is Dr Dick Sichembe, the Auditor-General, who has written, at least, six letters to the PS in the Ministry of Agriculture demanding –

Yashima TV?

Hon. PF Member: Asheni TV!

Mr Kafwaya resumed his seat.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is nothing wrong, I think you can continue. We are able to get you. Even the people are able to get you.

Who is Mr Dick?

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: I did not get that.

Hon. PF Member: She said, “Who is Mr Dick?”

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the ‘Dick’ being referred to in the newspaper headline is Dr Dick Sichembe, who is the Auditor-General. So, according to the newspaper article, he has abandoned the audit of the Ministry of Agriculture. This is because the PS in that ministry has refused to avail documents for the audit.

Madam Speaker, I want the answer to the question to be specific. So I will be very detailed. This is the first time in the Republic of Zambia that a PS has refused to respond to six letters written by the Auditor-General demanding information. The sad part is that the Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary to the Cabinet were both copied in the correspondence for those demands, and I suspect the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, since he supervises the Secretary to the Treasury, may be aware of that refusal to provide information.

Madam Speaker, many people, including hon. Members of Parliament, have alleged that there is a lot of corruption in the procurement of fertiliser. The Auditor-General’s audit is the only way the Zambian people and those who have been alleging instances of corruption can be given assurance whether, indeed, there is corruption. When the PS refuses to tender documents to the Auditor-General, then he denies the Zambian people proper conclusions to matters.

 

Madam Speaker, suddenly, in this Republic, under the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, it is normal for a PS to deny the Auditor-General information. The Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary to the Cabinet are quiet on the issue.

 

Madam Speaker, my two questions to Her Honour, the Vice-President, and the hon. Minister, only to the extent of his authority over the PSs, firstly, is: Should the Zambian people still be confident that the Auditor-General will produce a credible audit report?

Secondly, Madam Speaker, should the international community, including the International Monetary Fund (IMF), be confident that the UPND Government is committed to accountability and transparency when it comes to the management of public affairs, when a PS can refuse to avail information to the Auditor-General?

I seek your direction on the matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON THE HON.MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON INCREASING CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES AT DANGER HILL

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to rise on a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order, …

 

Mr Chitotela loudly talking to another Hon. Member.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

Hon. Chitotela, please, lower your voice as you are consulting.

Hon. Member for Mpika, you may continue.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order 134, directed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, the Great North Road is our economic, ...

Mr Kapyanga was inaudible.

Mr Kapyanga: … feeding our commerce. However, there is a section in my constituency called Danger Hill bordering Shiwang’andu. As the road in that area is in a deplorable state, criminals have taken advantage of the situation. They have been attacking motorists as well as drivers transporting goods to various destinations.

Madam Speaker, just two days ago, a Zimbabwean was attacked and lost goods worth thousands of United States (US) dollars. Today, again, there is a video circulating on social media where another motorist has been attacked by thugs at the same spot. However, in both incidents, no arrest has been made.

Madam Speaker, each day that passes, motorists are subjected to a security menace at that point. I, therefore, engage the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security on this very important matter. We have the Zambia Police Service Mobile Unit that can be stationed at that point to curb the issue.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

MR J. E BANDA, MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND ARTS, ON THE WELFARE OF UNEDUCATED YOUTHS

Mr J. E Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central, this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance, pursuant to Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, maybe, you can move away from the microphone, slightly.

Laughter

Mr J. E Banda: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, when the New Dawn Government took over power, it advertised jobs in the education and health sectors, and employed, 30,000 and 11,000 youths, respectively.

Madam Speaker, in this country, we have youths who are both educated and uneducated. For those who are uneducated, it is not their fault. It is due to different circumstances. I for one struggled to finish my Grade 12. So, I am sure most of those youths did not manage the struggle I went through and that is why, they gave up and remained uneducated.

Madam Speaker, currently, the crime rate and the number of junkies have increased. In my constituency, if you go to the police cells, you will find many youths there. Today, I was watching a clip where our foreign investors were being robbed by the youths in Kabwata Constituency.

Madam Speaker, when we were campaigning, we used the youths, especially those who are not educated. We promised them that once we got into power, we would find them something to do. Alas, we have even stopped answering their phone calls.

Laughter

Hon. PF Member: Naupya iwe, naupya!

Hon. Members: Alas!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Echi sungu!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

That was on a lighter note, I am sure.  Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, continue and summarise your matter of urgent public importance.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you.

Madam Speaker, it is so unfortunate that even we, as leaders, have stopped answering phone calls from the youths. These youths do not have anything to do. Some of them have even started killing their girlfriends. You saw what happened on the Copperbelt. That was because the youths do not have anything to do. Their girlfriends end up going to sugar daddies to look for money. From that same money, they even feed their boyfriends but when these same boyfriends discover, they get upset.

Madam Speaker, this matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Youths, Sports and Art. What is the Government doing to ensure that even the uneducated youths are looked after? In the Budget for the ministry, there is a provision for skills development but about 60 per cent of youths do not qualify to undertake skills development.

Madam Speaker, therefore, I want the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts to encourage the youths to stop stealing. He should also encourage the youths to start managing their girlfriends and wives so that they stop going to sugar daddies to look for money.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance. 

Mr Kafwaya laid the people on the Table.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, it is not a must that every day we should be raising these matters of urgent public importance. Let us find other ways of participating. I think there are many ways in which we can participate.

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON MR SIKUMBA, THE HON. MINISTER OF TOURISM, ON HUMAN-ANIMAL CONFLICT

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I wish to raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Tourism. I am raising this matter with a heavy heart, in the sense that elephants are on a rampage eating people’s crops such as maize and rice in Mwala Ward, in Chama North Constituency. This is denying our people the peace they need to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

Madam Speaker, the affected villages are Mungulube, Mbangandwe, Chipeta, Mulumbu and Zowole. People are not sleeping in their homes because they have to go and safeguard their fields, which is also very risky on their part.

Madam Speaker, further, in Chama, we only have four members of the Community Resource Board (CRB), who are volunteers. We do not have permanent world life officers in that area to deal with this particular matter. Due to the vastness of the area, these people are unable to bring under control human-animal conflict due to low staffing levels.

Madam Speaker, people feel that the colonial Government was more methodical because during that time, we had a lot of animals but people’s crops were safeguarded. The crops were not eaten by animals. There used to be the afundis, known as hunters, who were authorised to control these animals. Each village had a hunter to control these animals. That way, people’s crops were protected.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious indulgence in this matter because if no immediate measures are taken, food security and human life will be under threat.

MR MUNIR ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR LUMEZI, ON THE VICE-PRESIDENT AND LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON THE PRAYER SAID IN PARLIAMENT

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for permitting the good people of Lumezi to rise on a matter of urgent public importance, pursuant to Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker, this matter is directed at the Leader of Government Business in the House. It is my first time to be elected as hon. Member of Parliament and I am not sure, if I will come back to this House.

Madam Speaker, let me take the House to the preamble of the Republican Constitution of Zambia. It says,

“We, the people of Zambia acknowledge the supremacy of God Almighty;

Declare the republic a Christian nation while upholding a person’s right to freedom of conscience, belief or religion.”

Madam Speaker, I know we do not have the Ministry of Religious Affairs and I know I am not a Christian for the record but, the people out there have been asking me, “Who wrote the prayer that you use in the National Assembly of Zambia?” I tell them I do not know. 

Madam Speaker, no one is allowed to quote from the Bible. Why? I do not know. Therefore, I will leave this House without an answer. The future generations will come and inherit the same prayer that has no background and no one knows who wrote it and we continue to do it.

Madam Speaker, someone will say it is an internal issue, but if an internal issue is wrong, it must be addressed for the benefit of all citizens. I know even senior members in here do not know who wrote that prayer and they just say amen. The Leader of Government Business in the House should tell us and the people outside this House why we should continue believing in a prayer that does not conform to our religious beliefs at individual levels.

Madam Speaker, you see a lot of conflicts in this House because that prayer is not sincere. Where people pray, there is peace. These conflicts you see could be because of having a prayer whose source is not known.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

MR TWASA, HON. MEMBER FOR KASENENGWA, ON MR MWIIMBU, THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON PEOPLE THREATENING VIOLENCE

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to rise on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, this morning, the people of Kasenengwa, and I am sure many other people across the country, woke up to a rude shock having seen a video which was circulating on social media where young men clad in the United Party for National Development (UPND) regalia are threatening violence country wide. According to them, anyone who will be seen in PF regalia in this country will be beaten to death.

Madam Speaker, where is this country heading to? The happenings in this country are very worrying. The unfortunate thing is that this issue is being raised here, but we will try to run away from it. However, we can hide our heads, yet the entire body is exposed. We need to address these matters. Here in Parliament, we are discussing the President’s Address on values, principles and morals, yet what is happening out there is totally different.

Madam Speaker, no wonder your own Members are questioning the prayer we say here because when we are saying it, we do say the name of Jesus. We are discussing morals in this House, yet the people we lead – the hon. Member of Petauke Central said we are using our youths.

Madam Speaker, our lives are being threatened. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to sit quietly when the people who were wearing the UPND regalia are threatening the peace of this nation?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious guidance on this matter.

MR KASANDWE, THE HON. MEMBER FOR BANGWEULU, ON MRS NALUMANGO, HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON UPND CADRES

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. My matter of urgent public importance is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, we have seen a growing trend of the United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres inflicting violence on female civil servants and Government officials. Not too long ago, a District Administrator in Kasama in the Northern Province, was roughed up and was left half naked by the UPND cadres. Last week on Wednesday, the same UPND cadres forced themselves into the office of Hon. Doreen Mwamba, the Minister of Community Development and Social Services. They insulted her, unleashed unpalatables and demanded for jobs. They demanded that the contract that the Zambia National Service (ZNS) has with the ministry be cancelled and be given to them. I am worried that if the perpetuation of Gender Based Violence (GBV) by the UPND cadres is not controlled, this will bring confusion to this country.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance so that the female Zambians, civil servants and the hon. Ministers are protected.

 

MR CHEWE, THE HON. MEMBER FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON ENG. MULUPI, THE HON. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, ON THE BAD STATE OF THE ROAD

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On a point of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of good people of Lubansenshi Constituency.

Madam Speaker, as I am standing here, the people of Luwingu and Chilubi are mourning. We lost two women in the last one week.

Madam Speaker, in October last year, I brought up the issue of the Luwingu/Chaba Road being in a bad state and the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development assured me that he was on top on things and that that road would be worked on. Unfortunately, he always says that the road will only be worked on when the funds are made available. We do not know when the funds will be available or we are still waiting for Jesus Christ to come so that maybe at that time we will have funds.

 

Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is that, a week ago, two women died in an area called Chansa. However, a stretch of 40 km has been cut off from Chilubi District. The women who were pregnant wanted to go to other side, but because of that, no vehicles or bicycles were passing. The people of Lubansenshi, Luwingu District and Chilubi are worried and would like to know when the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development will sort out this issue before we lose more lives. They are tired of the feedback that the road will only be worked on when funds are made available. What immediate action will the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development put in place to ensure that the Luwingu/Chaba Road is worked on, especially the 40 km stretch, which has made it difficult for the people to access goods and services?

I submit, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbabala, have you just come in?

Mr Musanje (Mbabala): Yes, Madam Speaker. I have a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

Mr Musanje: Madam Speaker, we are seated here listening to this segment. Are we in order to bore the public with many irrelevant items as matters of urgent public importance?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I thought it was a matter of urgent public importance. What is that supposed to be?

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker it is basically the fact that we are not utilising the time for matters of urgent public importance well. They are supposed to serve the people of Zambia. The people are listening to irrelevant matters, which are being brought up as matters of urgent public importance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Mbabala. Of course, we have seen that most of the issues raised are not matters of urgent public importance, but we give chance to hon. Members to bring them out and according to the ruling that would be given, it would disqualify those that are not admissible. We have already heard some of them and just as I am going to make a ruling on whether they are serious and admissible. If not, they will be thrown away. However, hon. Members, let us not make this a platform for debating issues that are not even relevant. Let us think of issues that are affecting our people. We are here because of our people. I think there are many issues that can be brought to the House, instead of bringing issues that really do not make an impact or benefit to our people. I will now go ahead to make the rulings.

I will start with the hon. Member for Lunte, who brought a newspaper article and was talking about article 249, 250 and also section 73 talking about the Auditor-General as it appeared in the newspaper article. He also mentioned that the Auditor-General’s Reports are proving to not be useful because of the happenings. The hon. Member for Lunte is advised that the matter is not admissible because he even went on to debate the matter at length. Also, it is not a matter that requires immediate action. Matters of urgent public importance, like it was stated last week when the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker was trying to guide the hon. Members on issues of raising the points of order and matters of urgent public importance.

Hon. Members, these are issues that are dealing with life or death of the people and should be a matter that has just happened, a recent occurrence such that if it is not addressed, there will be a catastrophe and many people’s lives will be affected.

I advise the hon. Member for Lunte to find another avenue of bring the important issue to the House. You can look at all the avenues and pick one avenue of bringing the matter to the House. I am sure the hon. Member you will think of an avenue of bringing the matter back to the House.

The hon. Member for Mpika talked about the danger hill area along the Great North road where criminals are attacking drivers and he cited an example where one driver from Zimbabwe was attacked and lost a lot of money. He also suggested that, maybe, the Government can set up a mobile police station there so that they can help the people to not be attacked.

Hon. Member, again, the matter is not admissible because the criminal activities have been going on for some time now along the same road and the police is aware of the matter. I am sure reports have been taken to the police of every attack that happens along the road. So, the Government is already aware of the problem. I also advise the hon. Member for Mpika to have a small discussion with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. It is not that you have to wait only for a ministerial statement in the House. Please visit the office of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

The hon. Member for Petauke Central mentioned that jobs to employ 30,000 teachers  in the education sector and 11,000 health workers was done, but that others could not be employed because they could not go far in their education due to circumstances beyond their control. This does not relate to the general state of affairs. Issues of non-employment have been there. This is something that is not new. We have stayed in this country for years and we have heard that many youth are not employed. So, because this matter is not new, it does not qualify to be taken as a matter of urgent public importance.  You can find another avenue of finding out what can be done. 

The hon. Member for Chama North raised a matter to the hon. Minister of Tourism that Elephants are on a rampage eating people’s maize, and he mentioned that several wards have been affected and people now have stopped sleeping as they have to spend nights outside just to guard their crops. Hon. Member, I think we have had this question a number of times and it is something that is not new. However, because it looks to be very important, the hon. Member for Chama North can lodge in an urgent question.

The hon. Member for Lumezi who raised a matter towards the Leader of Government Business in the House mentioned that this was his first term in the House. He complained that in the House, although he is not a Christian, we are not allowed to quote the Bible. He went on to talk about the prayer in the House saying that the many conflicts in the House may be because of the prayer. This matter is not admissible hon. Member because it is an internal procedure of the House and it is not urgent. I do not think that there is somebody who will die because of this prayer or not quoting from the Bible. So, hon. Member, the matter is not admissible.

The hon. Member for Kasenengwa targeted the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, where he said that there is a video that is circulating on social media where the United Party for National Development (UPND) youths are threatening violence against anyone who will be wearing Patriotic Front (PF) regalia. Again hon. Member, if you recall, yesterday we gave a directive to the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to come to the House and give a Ministerial Statement, because the issue you have raised is related to violence. So, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, who has been directed to come with a ministerial statement, is surely going to take into consideration such issues being raised on violence.

 

The hon. Member for Bangweulu raised an issue of cadres interfering or harassing females or civil servants. He gave an example of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services whose office was invaded by cadres who demanded for jobs among other things. I think this, too, can be incorporated in the ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security because it is also talking about violence. So, hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, please, take into consideration the two issues that have been brought out in the House.

 

The hon. Member for Lubansenshi also raised an issue. He was not clear because at some point I thought the two women he mentioned were involved in an accident. However, he went to on to say that the scenario happened because of the bad road. So, this scenario that the hon. Member has presented to the House is an old problem of bad roads. He even cited the month in which he brought the issue. I do not know whether he had a discussion with the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development in October. This is not an issue that occurred recently. However, since we are losing women, this matter is important. Therefore, the hon. Member is advised to raise an urgent question. Thank you.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

WHY REHABILITATION OF THE ISOKA/MAFINGA ROAD IN ISOKA

CONSTITUENCY HAS STALLED

198. Ms Nakaponda (Isoka) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. why the rehabilitation of the Isoka/Mafinga Road in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency has stalled;
2. when the project will resume; and
3. how much money the contractor was owed, as of June, 2022.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): The construction of the Isoka/Mafinga Road in Isoka Parliamentary constituency has stalled due to budgetary constraints.

Madam Speaker, the project will resume once funds are mobilised.

Madam, as of June, 2022, the contractor was owed a sum of K9,234,586.75.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, the issue of the Isoka/Mafinnga/Chama Road is so dear to the people of Isoka, Mafinga and Chama. If this road is rehabilitated, it could open up Mafinga, Isoka and Chama, hence creating thousands of formal and informal jobs under trade, tourism and agriculture.

Madam Speaker, has the Government looked at how crucial this road is in Muchinga Province and Zambia at large, economically? Hon. Minister, I need your serious response on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Isoka for the follow-up question, but let me give more information through the answer. The contract for upgrading the Isoka/Mafinga Road is earmarked for termination because the project has stalled for a long time. However, the road will be considered for upgrading in future work plans.

Madam Speaker, the contractor for the project is Messrs China Civil Engineering Construction Corporation Limited. The initial contract sum of the project was K396,383,470.02. This included Value Added Tax (VAT), with an initial completion period of twenty-four months.

Madam Speaker, the contract was varied under Addendum No. 3 by including an additional cost of K196,265,091.19, again including VAT. This was necessitated by the increase in the scope of works by 25 km from Chainage 65 km to 90 km which were reduced from Lot I. This increased the original contract sum from that amount of K396,383,470.02 to K592,648,561.21 inclusive of VAT.

Mr Speaker, the scope of the project was later revised by the previous administration from bituminous surface to gravel surface road at a total of K262,908,056.81 again including VAT. A total of just over K37 million has been paid to the contactor out of the certified amount of just over K46 million with physical progress standing at 13 per cent. In the interim, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA) is undertaking spot improvement works using the Force Account from 65 km where the upgraded section of the road ended to Muyombe.

Mr Speaker, the spot improvement works are expected to cost K10 million out of which K3 million has been released. Scope of works include gravelling and drainage works. The Government is also undertaking repair works on the paved section of the road from Isoka junction for 65 km. These works include scour protection works, drainage works and pothole patching works.

Madam Speaker, that is the additional information.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, like the hon. Member for Isoka said, this road is highly economical because Isoka, Mafinga and Muyombe and Kanyele are high productive areas. They grow many crops. I am aware that the tarring of that road started towards the end of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) rule. To date, the people of Mafinga continue to lament.

Madam Speaker, the spot maintenance and emergency works are just in certain areas. Why does the Government not make the whole stretch of the road which is not tarred a gravel road which is climate-resilient? I think our people will appreciate this while we wait for funds to tar the road to be made available. Why are we allowing roads which are highly economical to be in that state? Why does the Government not think of upgrading the road to a gravel road which is climate-resilient until funds are available for us to construct a bituminous road?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, there are two pertinent points here. The first one is that the tarring of the 65km from the turn-off on the Great North Road was undertaken during the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) period, meaning that during the ten years of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, nothing was done on it.

Madam Speaker, the second one is that this is where we should be speaking with one voice on matters of development.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: The reason the New Dawn Government, on specific roads, has gone the public-private partnership (PPP) route, among others, is the lack of funds, which it has explained in terms of the performance of the economy and the inability for it to borrow because of the high indebtedness that this nation finds itself in.

Madam Speaker, when we go the PPP route, it means that even when funds are available, the major roads would have been done. Therefore, what will be available, for example, when we resolve the issue of this discussion with creditors, will be available for roads such as that one. This is the reason we get surprised when we get unwarranted opposition to some of the things that we are doing.

Madam Speaker, I ask that the hon. Member and the rest of the House be supportive of these well-meaning measures to address some of the issues pertaining to infrastructure which cannot be done using our own resources or by borrowing for it. It will release resources for many roads that require us to use our own resources.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear! Correct.

Eng. Milupi: This particular road is, but one. I can go on and name so many roads that require similar treatment. I have been in discussion with the hon. Member for Isoka. Even when I visited her constituency, it was part of the discussion we had. We are aware about the road and would like to work on it, but we have to wait for resource availability.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister/‘president’, with a small letter ‘p’, for his responses.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, get straight to your question.

Mr Munir Zulu: I am trying to build it up better, Madam Speaker. He is, indeed, a president with a small letter ‘p’ from the alliance partners.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has been in that office for one year six months now and 80 per cent of his responses have been, “when money is available.” One year six months from now, we will be preparing to dissolve Parliament as we will be going for elections. When is he going to start giving us answers saying, “On the 3^rd of June, we are launching the construction of the roads”, for example?

Madam Speaker, the people are tired of one answer. We cannot continue with the blame game. The hon. Minister was a Member of Parliament in this House, as an Independent Member, on the Opposition side. So, he knows the problems that the people are faced with. This particular hon. Minister is a president of a political party and here, he cannot give us solid answers. We need answers beyond saying, “When money is available.” When will he give to the people of Isoka and Mafinga a genuine answer? This answer is open ended. Even our stay in this Parliament will come to an end on a specific date. So, why should projects not have definite answers?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let me give just a point of correction. The hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is in this House using that title and not as a president of another party. He is the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development and is going to answer the question in that capacity.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank you for that correction. First of all, let me remind the hon. Member for Lumezi that I am a big man. I am not only a president of a party, but the Chairman of the alliance that defeated the mighty Patriotic Front (PF).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, with regard to his question: When are we going to start answering differently? The New Dawn Administration is an honest Government. We have to answer as matters are.

Madam Speaker, there are other sources of raising revenues which can come to this Parliament. The issue of the Budget that we discuss, everyone in this House is aware that it is a constraint in terms of expenditures. So, there are various ways in which we can address this and have looked at them. For example, we can increase the revenue side and that means more taxation. This Government feels that tax is already at very high threshold. Therefore, we cannot push it. Look at the Pay As You Earn (PAYE) and Corporate Tax, they are high, and that constrains us.

Madam Speaker, on the ability to borrow so that we can use borrowed money, we have explained that we have to deal with the issue of the massive debt left to us and the massive interest that we have to pay. This is why the previous Government, in November 2020, defaulted, for the first time. So, until these matters are resolved, that will be the standard answer.

Madam Speaker, let me, however, assure the hon. Member that, as the Government, we seek office in order to bring development and these matters pertain to development. However, we will not do so irresponsibly. We have to restructure the economy. The President spends sleepless nights to restructure this economy and resolve the issue of this massive debt. We are almost at the end of resolving it. So, let us bear with him until the time he is done, and we will have resources to direct towards infrastructure development.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kangombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a follow-up question to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development who has gone to great lengths explaining the challenge of financing and indicating that resources are not yet available.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Minister knows the mandate he has been given by the people of Zambia to find solutions within acceptable time, and that preamble I have given brings me to the follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, there are various options of funding road works. He indicated the public private partnership (PPP) model and the improvement in the economy as some of the possibilities of funding, and many other options which he said he will bring to Parliament. However, for a PPP project to be undertaken, normally, there is what is called a traffic count, where you undertake a feasibility study to check if your money will come back after you invest private money.

Madam Speaker, has there been a feasibility study that has been done on this very important road that would guide which model of funding being considered by the Ministry of infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa would be the first one to recognise that if there was a physical count on traffic on that road, it would result in very low numbers, which would make the application of a Public Private Partnership (PPP) model of financing totally irrelevant.

Madam Speaker, I also understand that on certain roads like the Mwenda/Kasomeno Road, even though there is virtually no traffic on it right now, when it is done, those who are interested in investing on it have already made their calculation that the build-up of traffic will be such that they can recover their investment.

Madam Speaker, I have said here before that if anybody is aware of any potential investor or concessionaire, who is willing to undertaken any of the road projects in Zambia, please, they should approach my office and we shall process that as quickly as possible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

UPGRADING OF HOSPITALS TO GENERAL HOSPITALS COUNTRYWIDE

199. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)       how many general hospitals there were, countrywide, as of December, 2021;

(b)       whether the Government has any plans to upgrade some hospitals to general hospital level; and

(c)        if so, how many hospitals are earmarked for upgrading countrywide.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia had a total of thirty-eight general hospitals distributed as follows:

     Type of Hospital                                  Number of hospitals

Government General Hospitals          l23

Faith-based General Hospitals            10

Private General Hospitals                   5         

Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to upgrade some hospitals to general hospital level. The upgrading of hospitals is an ongoing programme. So far, a good number of them have been upgraded. The exact number of hospitals to be upgraded will be established once the exercise of determining which hospital is to be upgraded is completed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I want to find out how the Government is going to work on these two types of hospitals which are general hospitals and mini-hospitals. Is the provision for mini-hospitals going to lower the rate of upgrading hospitals to general hospitals or these are two stand-alone programmes?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the question is not very clear, but I will try to answer if I understood it, rightly.

Madam Speaker, a mini-hospital is basically what we would call a health centre, be it in the urban or rural area. So, a mini-hospital is basically what one would assume is a health centre. A general hospital is well above a district hospital. So, initially, we have what we call a health post at the lowest level. This is the smallest health facility if we are to categorise them.

Madam Speaker, second from a health post is what we call, a health centre and this is slightly bigger than a health post. We have what we call urban health centres and rural health centres within that category. Above that, there is what we call a district hospital, like the one in Chongwe. Above a district hospital, there is what is called a general hospital, like the Kabwe General Hospital or the Livingstone General Hospital. Above a general hospital, there is what is called a tertiary hospital. These hospitals are like the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and the Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital (LMUTH). Then, above the tertiary hospital, there is what we call the Specialised Hospital. These are specific specialised hospitals like the Cancer Diseases Hospital (CDH) and the National Heart Disease Hospital.

So, if I understood the question correctly, the hon. Member wanted to know whether mini-hospitals are going to be upgraded to general hospitals. The hon. Member should remember that for our purposes, a mini-hospital is a second level hospital or just in between the second level and the district hospital. So, a general hospital is much more advanced.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I seem to be confused by the two types of hospitals, which are the mini-hospitals and the general hospitals. From what the hon. Minister is saying, she has indicated that a general hospital is more advanced than a mini-hospital. Now, why is it that the Government does not promote general hospitals? Why did the Government come up with mini-hospitals instead of upgrading district hospitals to general hospitals, which will offer more and advances services than a mini-hospital? Why is it that the Government does not centre its decision on upgrading hospitals into general hospitals?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member wants to know why the Government is building mini-hospitals instead of upgrading hospitals to general hospitals. Maybe, the way to answer that question is to state that each level of hospital has a specific function in terms of service delivery or treatment. A health post will be dealing with minor problems like health issues at community level. A general hospital will obviously, be dealing with more complicated operations. So, there is need to have a system of health delivery that will reduce congestion in big hospitals.

You do not want a person with a small cut rushing to the general hospital when he/she should go to a health post. We want a referral system that helps in managing cases in a manner that does not put pressure at the higher level. This is why we have a system that starts from the lower level to the upper level.

Madam Speaker, the question is why are we concentrating on smaller hospitals instead of bigger hospitals considering that bigger hospitals offer high-level treatment. When there are more smaller hospitals at the community level, this helps to prevent diseases. I call smaller hospitals as the preventive level. If you have a well-established low-level health service delivery, there are less patients at the high level. However, if you concentrate at the top, two things will happen. Firstly, there will be congestion at the top. Secondly, it means at the lower level, there is nobody dealing with basic issues of prevention and education. So, we want a system that has good facilities. You remember that in the good olden days, we were told to keep a first aid box in the house. So, your starting point was in the house. When one’s situation got worse, one went to the first level clinic. If it became worser, one went to the second level clinic and, lastly, the third level clinic. Basically, that is why there is such a system.

Madam Speaker, we should ensure that in every district, there are all levels of service delivery. For example, a health post, a general clinic, a district hospital, a provincial hospital, a national hospital and a specialised hospital. These hospitals should be well distributed in all the ten provinces so that nobody comes to Lusaka. For example, there is one cancer hospital in Lusaka and people from other provinces come to Lusaka, and they have problems of accommodation. One would say, why do you not decentralise? Why can we not have a cancer hospital in all the regions or the ten provinces? So, it is a question of planning looking at the population, disease burden and other factors that normally influence a particular establishment.

 

Madam Speaker, there is a need to take into account the human resource factor. There may be high level hospitals but without the necessary staffing. I know that Zambia over the last two decades has done quite well in trying to improve on human resource. Once upon a time, Zambia could only produce fifty doctors in a space of two or three years, but now, there are even doctors on the street. So, there are many factors to consider and it is not just a matter of saying let us have this kind of general hospital. You will also note that some hospitals were declared general hospitals or district hospitals through a pronouncement, but there is no equipment and human resource at those hospitals. It is the same theory of declaring certain areas districts, when they have nothing. An area is called a district and a District Commissioner and other people are appointed but when you look at the area, there is nothing there. So, it is the same principle.

 

Madam Speaker, being a methodical Government and since we took over office, you might have noticed that we have not declared anything. We are studying the situation so we can come up with a proper analysis of the situation because, currently in one district, there are three or two district hospitals, and in other districts, there is nothing. In other places, there is much more than what is required and some structures are becoming white elephants. So, we are carrying out a study so we can understand and decide, for example, where to construct a general hospital, how many health posts or clinics we need and so on and so forth. With time, we will come to this House and give a proper plan for those upgrades at least for the next five years. We will indicate what we will do in the next five years and we will follow that plan.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last three questions from the hon. Member for Lumezi, the hon. Member for Kabwata and the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa. In that order.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for bringing such a question to light. This question affects all of us in this House. The hon. Minister talked of upgrading some health facilities. However, in her conclusion, she said in the next five years. The hon. Minister is not in the first year of her term. We are almost two years down the line so we are looking at another two years. Does the hon. Minister have a timeframe as to when the upgrading will start?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question.

Mr Speaker, we do not look at two years; things go beyond our time. This administration under President Hakainde Hichilema, will obviously be there for ten years. Even then, we may not look beyond ten years. These are ongoing programmes. They do not start and finish with us, no.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. I would have loved if the hon. Minister had given statistics on how many district hospitals have graduated to being general hospitals the past ten years or so. However, what qualifications does the ministry look at when graduating a district hospital to a general hospital?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for the follow-up question. It is suffice to say that his statement on statistics should have been a substantive question for me to give a substantive answer.

Madam Speaker, there are many factors that we consider when we are upgrading hospitals. Every district wants to have a district hospital, a general hospital and a specialised hospital. However, there are many factors we consider such as resources, population, disease burden and we also have to balance; equity. So, all those factors come into play. For example, in the Eastern Province, a mission hospital is operating as a general hospital because it is able to provide certain activities and treatment which are not provided at the district level. So, a hospital should have the necessary equipment and human resource or skilled doctors to do certain operations for example. Those are the things that enable us move a hospital to the next level. However, like I said, we are desirous to have a district hospital and general hospital in every province and district, looking at our population. Would it not be good for every province to have a specialised hospital? All these are things that we desire but there are many things that definitely come into play.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member’s first statement is important and it would be good if he raised it as a question so that we can bring an answer and can specifically tell him which district hospital was declared a general hospital or which health post has been changed to a health centre and about the plans the Government has to build new district hospitals and where they will be built. It is an important statement but he can bring a substantive question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Health for the answers she is giving. From that important question from the hon. Member of Kalabo Constituency, I would like to find out how long the feasibility study that the ministry is undertaking is going to be? The hon. Minister has mentioned that the ministry wants to do proper planning. So, how long is the feasibility study which the ministry is taking on how many hospitals to convert? Certainly, there should be a mid and long term plan as to when you want to start implementing the project. The ministry has to look at the statistics on the catchment areas. So, it will be important to help us with how long the feasibility study will take and when the Government intends to start upgrading. All these things have to also go with the budget. So, I think that will be very helpful.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question. One or two months ago, we did launch the strategic plan for the Ministry of Health for 2022 to 2026, late as it was. However, I urge hon. Members of Parliament to have a glimpse of the plan because it is quite detailed and helpful.

Madam Speaker, the second part of the plan is that we are working out an implementation plan and certain activities have already started. I am aware that there are some districts that are being upgraded just like there are some health centres that are being upgraded, although they are being done in, what I would say really, not a well laid out plan. It should be a situation whereby hon. Members of Parliament, for example, would basically know where they will be in the next five years or ten years or up to 2030.  So, we are hoping that before June, the survey or study that we are undertaking should at least give us something that I can present to Parliament.

Madam Speaker, you recall last time I told you that we really needed to relook everything including some of the facilities which were upgraded by stating what certain facilities should be. We may just decide to get some of them back to where they were and maybe put up a complete new building, if the need arises.

Madam Speaker, I also believe that in the past, development was more tilted towards a political party; who the President was, where he was coming from, who the minister was and where she was coming from and which party was in power. That is how it was. Sometimes, even within the party, the person who had a better way of presenting himself or herself got a better share and the ones who were quiet failed to get a share. This time, we want to do things in a way that everybody, even if a Member of Parliament is not vocal, will be able to see their name or area and know when it will be done. We will bring it and you will see it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. Hon. Minister of Health, I come in peace.

Laughter

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Health embarked on a transvertional programme called Universal Health Access. To create health services for everyone in the country and it required reengineering of the health system. To build infrastructure, create access, human capital and provide services. To redo the health care financing system through National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA), the supply chain and to ensure research and public health security through the Zambia National Public Health Institution (ZNPHI) is done

Mr Tayali: Question!

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, to ensure that information management is done properly. In a health system that you structure and that this country has history for those criteria she is talking about where the minister comes from and what tribe does not exist. You are mutilating health systems ...

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, I come in peace.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mansa Central, what is your point of order?

Interjections

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, I have exercised restraint and I want to say this, the hon. Minister’s definitions of the mini and general hospitals are wrong. It would be good for the hon. Minister to go back and learn about these things and come to present.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, my point of order is –

Mr Masebo:  you are talking about things which are not there and you are not there.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mansa Central, you resume your seat. I think there was an announcement that was done by the Second Deputy Speaker a week ago, on how we are supposed to raise points of order, including the matters of urgent public importance. Now, we have started to debate points of order. We are supposed to cite the Standing Order that has been breached and then we are supposed to be very precise. Now, the hon. Member for Mansa Central you have debated the point of order. You have to be very precise.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, I cite Standing Order 65. Is the hon. Minister of Health in order to mislead herself and the nation on the definitions of mini and general hospitals and also on the criteria that has been used to ensure the health system is transformed and it is internationally recognised for progress in universal coverage.

Madam speaker, I seek your ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, thank you so much for that point of order. From the beginning, the way you brought out that point of order where you kept on saying that you came in peace and then went on to debate your matter, which we have all listened to. You are not supposed to debate, but to state your point of order. As far as we are concerned, even I, seated here, am relying on the information from the hon. Minister.

The hon. Minister is the custodian of all the information that is under the ministry. If you have an issue on whatever information that has been presented by the hon. Minister of Health, I the urge you to maybe raise it in another form so that it can be addressed. As far as we are concerned, we are getting the information from the owner of the ministry. I am just presiding. I cannot even tell whether the information from the hon. Minister is incorrect or correct. My role is to preside and we are relying on the information from the hon. Minister. So, hon. Member for Mansa Central, as at now, we are just listening to what the hon. Minister responsible for the ministry; the hon. Minister of Health, is telling us. If you disagree, or if there is some information that you have, please, you can come back with that information in another format.

Further, there is no harm in you having a discussion with the hon. Minister of Health. We are all serving the people of Zambia. However, as at now, we are getting information from the hon. Minister of Health who has the mandate over the ministry.

We move on hon. Members.

WHEN CONSTRUCTION OF CHEMBE BOARDING SECONDARY SCHOOL WILL BE COMPLETED

200. Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. when the construction of Chembe Boarding Secondary School in Chembe District will be completed;
2. what the cause of the delay in completing the project is;
3. at what level of completion, in percentage terms, the project was, as of March, 2022; and
4. what the cost of the outstanding works on the project was, as of March, 2022.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Speaker, the construction of Chembe Boarding Secondary School, in Chembe District of Luapula Province will be completed by the fourth quarter of 2023.

Madam, the cause of the delay in completing the project is due to financial constraints and of March 2022, the level of completion of the project was at 60 per cent.

Madam Speaker, as of March 2022, the cost of the outstanding works was estimated at K42,380,389.05.

Madam Speaker, since I am just sitting in for the hon. Minister, allow me to give further information.

Madam Speaker, funds to complete the school have been allocated in the 2023 Budget. The contractor is Powerflex Construction Company Limited and the initial contract sum of the project was K49 million.

Madam, the revised contract sum due to price fluctuations and the material cost is now almost K63 million. So far, a total amount of K20.3 million has been certified and paid to the contractor.

Madam, the scope of works include:

1. construction of the administration block;
2. library resource centre;
3. assembly hall;
4. 1x3x2 classroom block;
5. a computer laboratory;
6. 1x2x2 classroom blocks;
7. 1x2 art room;
8. two classroom toilet blocks;
9. two classroom science laboratory blocks;
10. two home economics classrooms;
11. twenty teachers’ houses;
12. five auxiliary staff houses;
13. dining and kitchen;
14. four girls dormitories;
15. four boys dormitories;
16. two girls dormitory ablution;
17. two boys dormitory ablution;
18. sick bay; and
19. a tuck-shop.

Madam Speaker, currently, physical progress is at 65 per cent completion. The administration block, two 1x3-classroom blocks, nine houses, and four girls’ hostels have all been roofed and plastered. Other structures are at various stages of completion. There is a claim by the contractor of K2.4 million, which is yet to be certified and paid.

Madam Speaker, the initial timeframe for compilation of the project was twenty-four months, starting from 15^th August, 2013 to 15^th August, 2015.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, when is the contractor going to be on site? From time to time, when I visit the constituency, I do not find the contractor on site and this is the only boarding school in the district.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, funds for completion of the school have been allocated in the 2023 Budget, as I earlier stated. I can only speculate that the contractor is probably waiting for the K2.4 million that has been certified, and not yet paid. I am sure, once this is paid, the contractor should be able to move on site.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I paid attention to the hon. Acting Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. He indicated that the total cost has been revised to K63 million and there is K20 million to be paid. He also said there is money in the 2023 National Budget. Is his assurance to the people of Chembe being put on record today; something that we can review in the next few months? Are we assured that these works will actually start? I think the hon. Member of Parliament is worried that there is an allocation and assurances but works have not yet commenced.

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I stated earlier on that funds for the completion of this school are in this year’s Budget. So, I do not see why this school should not be completed this year.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, I equally paid attention to the hon. Minister’s statement. He said that the school would be completed in the first quarter of 2023. However, the first quarter of 2023 is almost ending. Is the hon. Minister saying the school will be complete in the fourth quarter? Is he sure that the 48 per cent works remaining will be completed in the fourth quarter? Will we not get back to him and ask a similar question?

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, this is not a very complicated project to finish in the remaining nine months considering that funds are already in the kitty and the contractor will quickly move on site and finish off. So, this can be completed within this year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, we have suffered many setbacks in Chembe District due to vandalism. One such example is the district administration block, whose completion was at 85 per cent. However, due to vandalism, it has come to 52 per cent completion. So, what measures have been put in place on the Chembe Boarding School Project to avoid the vandalism that has been occurring?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, going by what the hon. Member of Parliament has stated, I need to find out exactly whether the contractor has moved out of site and who is providing security.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

MOTIONS

RESTRICT AUCTION OF PUBLIC ASSETS TO ZAMBIANS ONLY

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to restrict auctioning of public assets to Zambians only.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking you for according me the opportunity to move this progressive Private Member’s Motion urging the Government to restrict auctioning of public assets to Zambians only.

Madam Speaker, as a public representative, I was compelled to move this Motion in order to help the New Dawn Government actualise the empowerment of Zambians in accordance with its policy. It implores the Government to take desirable measures of creating wealth as well as addressing reasons that side-line Zambians from fully participating in the auction of public assets and property. Further, the Motion aims at preventing foreign auctioneering companies from creating cartels that disadvantage Zambians.

Madam Speaker, as you are already aware, on a regular basis, the Government of Zambia spends huge sums of publicly acquired money on procuring movable and non-movable assets in order to provide efficient and effective service delivery to the public. However, many of those assets, at some point, are disposed of to best bidders when the Government puts them up for auction. These assets are disposed of in line with various legislative and policy provisions that regulate the disposal of public assets.

Madam Speaker, principally, the assets should find themselves in the hands of Zambians. However, due to an unfair playing field, various assets and properties ranging from houses, motor vehicles, small holding farms, furniture, and other goods have been auctioned to foreign bidders owing to their financial muscle thereby rendering Zambian bidders uncompetitive. As a result, Zambians are gradually losing interest in taking part in auctions of public assets due to their comparatively lower financial status. This has caused huge economic losses as some of these assets and properties have been externalised at the expense of taxpayers’ money. In some instances, even when Zambians can meet the reserve price at auction sales, they are beaten to it by some foreigners with big financial muscle.

 

Madam Speaker, in the hope of national building, it is the duty of the Government to protect its citizens from an external threat. In this regard, it should protect Zambians by facilitating benefits from economic opportunities such as restricting the auction of public assets to Zambians only.

Madam Speaker, prioritising the interest of Zambians in the sale of public assets is, but one intervention. After all, the responsibility of paying duty and protecting public assets from acquisition to disposal is often held by Zambian citizens. Restricting the auction of public assets to Zambians only potentially has great benefits for the nation.

Madam Speaker, the benefits include, a basis for providing citizens with an opportunity to raise adequate capital for wealth and job creation, especially among the youth. It is a viable option for economic transformation, growth and productivity as the assets sold are likely to retain economic value within the country, thereby, boosting local private sector participation. It also ensures responsible management and disposal of public assets by selling them to Zambians who mostly fund these assets by paying taxes.

Madam Speaker, given the benefits, it is incumbent upon the Government to ensure that opportunities such as the auctioning of public assets are restricted to and benefit Zambians even though there is no law, as at now, that gives Zambians priority over foreigners as far as participating in the auctioning of public assets is concerned. In doing so, the Government will uphold its duty to promote the economic empowerment of its citizens as prescribed in Article 10 (2) of the Constitution of Zambia. Further, this is a practical way of attaining the status of a middle-income country by 2030.

 

Madam Speaker, this initiative has great potential to reduce youth unemployment and empower them to grow economically.

 

Madam Speaker, hon. Members may agree with me that Zambians have demonstrated necessary capacity to contribute to the Government’s desire to develop this country. However, their capacities are constrained due to a lack of opportunities and support from the Government. Therefore, the call to restrict the auction of public assets to Zambians needs to be supported by this House. It will enhance the participation of citizens in the economic affairs of the country.

Madam Speaker, this is a very straight forward and progressive Motion. I would like to ask all hon. Members to support this Motion whose main aim is just to empower Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kang’ombe: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, allow me, first of all, to thank the mover of the Motion for the great thought he has brought to this august House regarding the disposal of public assets through auction. I am aware that whenever Motions are brought to the Floor of the House, they are ambiguous, resulting in people not actively supporting them. So, I will try to simplify what the mover is basically trying to suggest today.

 

Madam Speaker, Section 46 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2018, provides for different ways of disposing of assets. I am saying this because we might have ambiguity if we do not simplify what really happens.

Madam Speaker, the Government has options it can use if it wants to dispose of public assets. The first option under 2 (a) is basically transferring an asset from one ministry to another, meaning it still remains within the State. The second option is through public tenders. This means that if it is the view of the Government that an asset is no longer useful, there is no need for an auction. It can still decide to dispose of it through public tender. The third option is what the hon. Member for Bahati referred to. He is basically stating that with all these options available, when it comes to auctions, we want Zambians only to participate to ensure that they have the advantage.

So, when I consider the Motion, Madam Speaker, I look at the provisions of the law; Sections 44, 42 and 45. The provisions are sufficient. Section 45 allows the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to formulate regulations. This means that we do not need to come to this august House to change the law. It is very clear, the hon. Minister can simply issue appropriate instructions relating to section 45 that Zambians only should participate in auctions.

An auction, Madam Speaker, is where you buy chairs that have already been used, a vehicle that is no longer useful –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was indicating to this august House that with regard to the disposal of public assets, there are about six or seven options that the Government has and one of them is to use public auction. 

Mr Speaker, public auction is provided for under Section 46 of the Public Finance Management Act. The same Act which was passed in this Parliament empowers the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to come up with regulations for disposal of public assets.

Mr Speaker, the good people of Kamfinsa are simply saying that we do not need to come back to Parliament to change any law. This is because the Public Finance Management Act empowers the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to develop regulations on any disposal of any public assets. I am aware for instance, that many Zambians have wanted to procure items which are of no use to the Government. These assets sometimes lose value and sometimes, the cost of maintaining some of these assets may be too much. The Government has got almost seven options. It can decide to issue a public tender, which can invite everyone to participate or it can look at Section 46(2)(c) of the Public Finance Management Act, which simply allows for public auction.

 

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion was speaking on behalf of the many Zambians who are disadvantaged when it comes to public auctions. Why can we not restrict this to the Zambians? If we are going to auction public assets, there are high chances that those assets are no long of use to the Government. Now, if the assets are no longer of use to the Government, it simply means that we should allow the Zambians to have the first privilege to offer what they have.

 

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion is simply saying that the Government normally, has assets that it no longer needs and it should not sell those assets to everyone. It should consider the Zambians to have the first right of refusal. This simply means that the Zambians will go for the reserve price and if they cannot afford it, the Government will then develop the regulations according to Section 46 of the Public Finance Management Act.

Mr Speaker, I felt the obligation to simplify the Motion. The Motion is simply saying that the Government has got a lot of options on how it would want to sell public assets. Now, can it isolate just one option and give the consideration to Zambians only? The mover of the Motion is not saying that all the provisions should be for Zambians. He is simply saying that if the Government wants to sell any item through the public auction – A public auction simply means that even a foreigner can offer to buy. If a foreigner wants to buy an old van at the Ministry of Transport and Logistics for instance, first consideration should be given to a Zambian. That is what the mover of the Motion is basically saying.

Mr Speaker, what that will do is that the Zambians will have the advantage to afford assets which the Government no longer needs. They will be advantaged to utilise those pieces of equipment. If it is office furniture, the Zambians should be given the first option to buy. That is what the mover of the Motion is saying.

Mr Speaker, are we saying that we need to change the law? We do not need to change the law, Mr Speaker. I am happy with the way the Public Finance Management Act was crafted. I am pleased that some of the hon. Members of Parliament, who are present today, were present when the law was being crafted. The law was crafted in such a manner that it gives the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning the power to simply say that assets will be sold through a public tender. He will be able to say that since assets have lost value, the Government is going to sell them to the Zambians through a public auction. That is what the mover of the Motion is simply saying. He is saying that first consideration should be given to the Zambians if we are going to dispose of any asset at a value which is determined through a public auction.

Mr Speaker, I do hope that those who will debate this very important Motion, will view it from the perspective of the many Zambians who participate in public auctions. Why should we disadvantage our own Zambians from buying items that no longer have use and have lost value, that they would want to utilise?

Mr Speaker, the people of Kamfinsa support the Motion that has been moved by the people of Bahati. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Chilubi, to add a voice to this important and non-controversial Motion.

Mr Speaker, I would like to put the Motion into context. The Motion is speaking to the Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC) and the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) guidelines, especially in terms of empowering our citizens, and that is why I have called it a non-controversial Motion. I also want to put what we mean by ‘Zambians’ in the right context. I realise that when one reaches a certain age, one gets a green National Registration Card (NRC), but there is also an option for one to get a blue or purple NRC. However, this Motion is speaking to people of any colour with green NRCs who may be Chinese or Indian, but are Zambians.

Mr Speaker, I want to underscore the fact that Zambia chose to go the liberalised economy route, and we have an informal sector. In an informal sector, different Zambians have registered all sorts of companies, but when you look at their asset value or capital for commerce, you will find that most of them are still struggling. Most Zambians do not have the capacity to go to a showroom to purchase vehicles and machinery. Therefore, auctioning provides an opportunity for the Zambians to grow their asset value, especially those with the capacity, so that they can compete favourably with those who are coming through the foreign direct investment window. This Motion is pushing for Zambians to be champions or captains of trade, to enable them have the muscle to bargain properly in an environment that is dominated by the people with the muscle, those who are known by the banks and those who can manoeuvre through the foreign direct investment window.

Mr Speaker, this Motion is not far away from the Public Finance Act of 2018, Cap 347, Cap 388 and Cap 69. Why are we trying to provide this mode? Why we are trying to provide this mode – it is a reality that public action nani auctioning of public –

Laughter

Mr Fube: Yes, nani. I know that you are just looking for small things; nani is just a pose. I continue Mr Speaker as though not disturbed by this boy from Nkana.

Laughter

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, the situation has been hijacked. Some of us who have been there when public assets are being auctioned know that for Zambians to even buy the weakest wreck of a vehicle of any sort or a finished computer, sometimes they have to fight. We know that if there is a window where corruption is sneaking through, and organised corruption, it is auctioning of public assets. This is where we have an organised cartel. When such people hear that public assets will be auctioned in the Southern Province or the Northern Province – because these things are even advertised in the newspaper – they find money. When buying public assets, some Zambians are just used as fronts, but the people who return the asset value of what has been bought are actually “foreigners”, who at the end of the day take the machinery or vehicles they buy outside the country for reconditioning and later on resell them in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, when a person goes to register a company at the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA), that person has a vision, but may not know where to find the capital. So, this Motion is trying to empower the Zambians who have registered companies at PACRA so that they can also bargain properly in the environment of commerce, and at the end of the day, may have machinery running, which they can use to produce certain things and add value. I know that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the President have spoken of the need for us to add value to our raw materials.

Mr Speaker, since we are not empowering the Zambians to own assets, we should realise that the Government is the only agent that will champion value addition, especially that we have a liberalised economy. However, all the players, including the private sector, are supposed to add value addition. If that be the case, this is the Motion of the day. If that be the case, this is the Motion of the moment, and I do not expect really– let not things like the sale of the aeroplane crowd our minds. All we are saying is that we, who are here, and the people outside this House need to be empowered.

Mr Speaker, I can go on talking until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but I rest my case.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Motion.

Mr Speaker, when I indicated for an opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Motion, I actually was of the view that it was supportable. The seconder stood to second the Motion, only to realise that the seconder has introduced his own Motion.

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: My colleague, the hon. Member for Chilubi, supported the Motion and introduced yet another Motion. We now have three Motions on the Table Mr Speaker, and obviously, they are not going to get our support.

Mr Speaker, let me make the distinction. The mover of the Motion urged the Government to restrict the sale of public assets to Zambians. The seconder talked about restricting the sale of assets of no use to Zambians. The next speaker said the Government should empower Zambians so that they can buy machinery. It is for that reason that this Motion – one is even running out of words to describe it, so let us just say that we are not going to support it.

Mr Speaker, what is a public asset, if we are to take the Motion proposed by the mover? A public asset is any asset, tangible or intangible that is owned by the Government or a procuring entity directly or indirectly. That covers everything ranging from mines owned by the Government to entities such as ZESCO Limited to aeroplanes, if we are talking about tangible assets. By intangible assets, we are talking about our airspace, in case some people do not know that airspace does get auctioned, and giving rights for our airspace.

Mr Speaker, when you are talking about public assets, you are also talking about television sets that are obsolete and vehicles that are being disposed of. If the mover of the Motion had spoken about chattels and given examples, such as television sets, furniture and vehicles being disposed of, it would have been a straightforward issue. However, to suggest a blanket restriction that disposal of all public assets on auction must be restricted to Zambians is to completely miss the point. There are many reasons Government would sell public assets. It is not always that the asset has no use. Sometimes you sell because you need to earn foreign exchange, such as when we auction minerals and our intellectual property. We cannot restrict the sale of such assets to Zambians only.

Mr Speaker, if the Motion had taken into account the fact that the aspects that they want to be addressed are of chattels that are disposable and of a small nature, there would not be any argument. So, the reason we are not going to support the Motion is because in its current framing, it is impractical, mischievous and completely adds no value even to the so-called empowerment, that some of the speakers have suggested, it is supposed to be promoting.

Mr Speaker, we already have institutions that are dealing with empowerment. In fact, my hon. Colleague for Chilubi has already talked about the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) and the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) as having sufficient empowerment programmes for Zambians. Surely, we cannot sit here and tell Zambians that we think their empowerment should come through when the Government is disposing of assets that are of no use anymore. That is not what Zambians want. Zambians want empowerment with assets that are of use and not assets that are of no use.

Mr Speaker, even the mover of the Motion noticed this. It is no wonder towards the conclusion of his debate, he indicated that the Motion should receive support because it is going to empower Zambians who would otherwise be disempowered. From what has been put on the Table, we see there is absolutely no form of empowerment if the suggestion is that Zambians will be procuring the assets because they are of no use at all.

Mr Speaker, this is a Motion that one would not even spend a lot of time debating because it is straightforward. From our side, it is a ‘no’ because it is not advancing any empowerment. Rather, it is advancing political visibility just so that we can tell Zambians out there that “I was fighting for you and the Government in power refused.” The Government in power has refused to give Zambians obsolete assets. It wants to empower Zambians with new assets. Those are the programmes that are being put through the CEEC and even through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The Government has made a decision that procurement should be done from the local communities. That is the kind of empowerment that Zambians are looking for, not to procure vehicles that are on rocks because they are going to be available at K5,000, no. Where are they going to take them?

Interruptions

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. With these few words, I conclude by saying that we do not support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you. I have been availed a list from the right. We will keep alternating between the Independents and hon. Members from the left. So, now we will go to the Independents.

The hon. Member for Lumezi may take the Floor.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Thank you, so very kind Mr Speaker. Permit me to appreciate the mover and seconder of the very progressive Motion.

Mr Speaker, as an ardent follower of President Hakainde Hichilema, I say to those opposing the Motion, ekutumpa uku.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I repeat: As an ardent follower of President Hakainde Hichilema, I say to those opposing such a non-progressive Motion, kutumpa uku.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, hold on.

Hon. Government Members: It is non-progressive!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, by now you should know that word is unparliamentary.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Withdraw that word and replace it with another word.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, with your guidance, I withdraw the word ukutumpa uku.

Mr Speaker, permit me to say that the unreasonable person is the person who will oppose such a Motion. What type of people are we who support an agenda that is only for the imperialists? We are from arguing about Macro Ocean Investment Consortium, a company that will be collecting toll fees on the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway. It is a foreign entity that is going to milk billions and billions of Kwacha. It is a foreign firm. Here, the sale or disposal of public assets to Zambian citizens is being shot down. When will we start supporting our people, ourselves? That is another question. The behaviour of inheriting everything is what has destroyed the country.

Mr Speaker, much earlier, I talked about a prayer which we inherited. We do not know who wrote it. We cannot even have our Zambian prayer. We have a prayer that we must read that we do not own in our hearts. You do not want selling of state assets to Zambians, but when a foreigner comes, you are quick to say he is an investor, yet he is bringing zero Ngwee on the table to collect toll fees. We are here wearing suits …

Hon. PF Member: We should wear vitenges.

Mr Munir Zulu: … representing the people and proudly saying we are going to defend and protect the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Where is patriotism? Where is the patriotism? If we can be this cheap –

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. There is a Motion on the Floor of the House. The Motion by the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati is very clear, but the debaters are confusing the entire Motion to the extent that we are losing track as to what we are debating.

Mr Speaker, are they in order not to understand what a public asset is? We have assets which we are disposing of through auctions, such as emeralds in this country owned by the Government of the Republic of Zambia and there are no Zambians who can buy those emeralds. Are we now saying we should never sell these emeralds to anyone who comes in this country? Those are public assets.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: I just want them to clarify. That is the point of order. You are confusing the whole Motion.

Mr Speaker, are they in order to be confused?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think let us avoid contravening the Motion. We already know what the Motion states. I urge hon. Members of Parliament to take time to research and understand what we will debate the following day after the Order Paper has been circulated in the evening. I feel there is a lot that we have to do. We tend to contravene the Motion most times. The Motion on the Floor is quite clear. It is precise. At times, we contravene it and I do not know why. Maybe it is the lack of understanding or we just do it intentionally. So, hon. Members, let us avoid contravening the Motion.

The hon. Member is out of order for debating issues that are not contained in the Motion.

The hon. Member can continue.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us avoid debating while seated. We tend to mislead ourselves. I do not know whether prayer is a public asset.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I happen to have sat in a class where we did interpretation of words. I see no offence in giving examples where the Motion reads “Restrict Auction of Public Assets to Zambians”.

Mr Speaker, Kagem Mining Limited is owned by Grizzly Mines, a private entity, it is not for the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, we must be factual with what we state. I am citing examples that are only affiliated to the properties that belong to the Government of the Republic of Zambia, not to private firms. I know it is possible that a regime could be supporting foreign firms for personal interest and that could be the reason we have got macro concessionaires coming to collect money from the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and we are celebrating. There is no offence. In fact, you wonder – Anyway, I understand, Hon. Mwiimbu is a senior member of this House and a senior lawyer who has not practiced law much. He has spent most of his life in Parliament.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, twenty-five years in Parliament and less time at the bar is well understood.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

Let us avoid debating each other. There is a Motion on the Floor of the House, let us stick to it. This is why I was saying we should be reading. The reading should not only be left to presiding officers. Hon. Members also have to read, so that we can be factual and in line with what we are talking about. That way, we will avoid debating each other.

The hon. Member may continue with his debate.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I would have been very happy to hear that the Leader of Government Business supports the idea of giving preference to the United Party for National Development (UPND) youths to run the tolls on the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway because they are Zambians.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I would be very happy to hear that whatever we are advertising as a country, preference is given to Gilbert Liswaniso, who is a Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Munir Zulu: He is a Zambian.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are talking about someone who cannot defend himself here.

Mr Munir Zulu: I am not attacking him.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, but the Motion on the Floor is not Gilbert Liswaniso. There are many public assets that you can mention, even the mines are public assets. So, there are many things that you can talk about.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, self-praise is poisonous, but let me praise myself. I will be very happy to participate in the procurement of public assets because I am Zambian. There is no reason for us to continue marketing an inferiority complex to the Zambian citizens that we cannot participate and we cannot own public assets as Zambians. We have the capacity and we must support such a Motion.

Mr Speaker, we have had –

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65 (b).

Mr Speaker, is the Member of Parliament for Lumezi in order to mislead himself and this nation by mere lack of understanding of the Motion on the Floor. Let me read the Motion. It says “Restrict Auction of Public Assets to Zambians.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that, historically, the Government has been auctioning assets. I have never heard of an instance where a Zambian was denied an opportunity to buy.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to be at sea and mislead this House? He has debated for almost six minutes and he has not added any value to the Motion on the Floor.

I seek your serious guidance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us ensure that we stick to the Motion on the Floor of the House so that we remain relevant to it. Tax payers out there are listening. So, if they are listening, their money should be worthwhile.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, I do not need to be assisted. I am a competent presiding officer. I know what I am doing.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I know I have got very few minutes to wind up. However, another Motion will be brought to the House where we might ask Parliament to provide us with interpreters because English seems to be a challenge in here.

Mr Speaker, the Gulfstream G650 Presidential Jet is a public asset and if it has to be sold, sell it to a Zambian like me. I am Zambian. Why do you want to rush to sell public assets to non-Zambians? Why? What interest are you serving? We do not want public assets to end up in the Panama Islands or Mauritius where safe havens are found.

Mr Speaker, this issue we are debating today is about protecting our unborn children for us who are still growing. For others, maybe, they are shooting it down purely because their existence is time-bound.

Mr Speaker, we have got to be patriots. We cannot shoot every progressive Motion just because we have spent twenty-five years in Parliament, opposing everything. We cannot continue on this trajectory. Time has come when we should put the interest of the Zambian first. Our hon. Colleagues on the right should be reminded that some of these Motions are very progressive. Ideally, I felt that for once, they were going to be reasonable and support a progressive Motion, but here they are being unreasonable, as usual.

Mr Speaker, it is a sad day for Zambia that such a progressive Motion is being shot down. We hope the citizens are listening.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I want to begin by explaining that our late President Fredrick Chiluba, who embarked on privatisation once celebrated that Zambia had achieved privatisation within five years when Britain was still struggling. The reason was very simple; the British were not privatising their assets to foreigners mostly. They were privatising the assets to themselves. This is why they took that long. These are facts.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the multinationals we are dealing with, you will note that they are owned by State agents. This is a fact. Look at the ownership of Total or Puma; these are not companies that are owned outside their jurisdiction. We need, as Zambians, to own our assets. These are facts. If an hon. Member in this House says this is a dead Motion, we wonder whether he/she came here to represent Zambians or foreigners.

Mr Speaker, I will give a typical example. Most of the United Party for National Development (UPND) followers in Kalomo want to buy those assets they are calling obsolete. They want to compete. If anything, Mr Speaker, we should be advocating more segregation. For people in Chipata, when there is an auction of public assets, such as vehicles, we should actually positively discriminate that only those who come from there should participate because they will not compete with some of those people, who are dealing with sugilite. They will not.

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: They are making millions and millions of dollars overnight. Will the people in villages compete with them?

Mr Speaker, clearly, civil servants cannot afford some of those vehicles which are sold by the Government. I know this Government has sold a number of vehicles from the time that it took over office, probably, more than what the PF had auctioned in ten years.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Mung’andu: Statistics are there. We are watching our colleagues. We would love the civil servants to also afford to drive some of those vehicles, especially 4 x 4s. Look at their salaries and the economic situation. Will they be able to afford those vehicles? The answer is ‘no’. This Motion is urging the Government to ensure that when it is sells those vehicles and motorbikes, it sells them to Zambian citizens.

Mr Speaker, some of the auction firms – This is the problem of having leadership that is detached from the people. Most of these auction companies that are being engaged are foreign owned. In case the Government does not know, they inform their citizens to come and compete with Zambians, but Zambians cannot compete. I know a few of those people on your right do participate in auctions. When they go to Hammer and Tongues Auctioneers, a Land Cruiser that is reserved at K10,000 goes at K500,000 because foreigners are involved. So, this Motion is urging the Government to restrict auctions to Zambian citizens.

We can even go further, Mr Speaker, to positively discriminate to ensure that if an auction is in the Western Province, let the people of the Western Province participate. I am sure that is what their people …

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, on a lighter note of semantics, the Motion is very clear. People must take note of the word ‘auction.’ It is very important. If we are just going to be saying, ‘Sale, sale, sale’, we shall go off the Motion.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

Mr Miyutu: When I look at the Motion, it does not say ‘sale’. It says ‘auction.’ So, whoever, hon. Member for Chama North, –

Hon. UPND Members: Chama South.

The hon. Member of Chama South is talking about selling to civil servants. However, under auction, Mr Speaker, you sell to the highest bidder.

Hon. UND Members: Yes!

Mr Miyutu: That is what auction says. Is he in order to divert from the Motion which is talking about auctioning to issues of selling to civil servants?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Chama South is not in order.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: This is why, earlier on, I encouraged hon. Members to read ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: … so that before they come to the House, they know exactly what they are talking about. There is a vivid distinction between selling and auctioning. Whilst selling could be a preserve of the seller, knowing an anticipated price, with auctioning, often times, primary preference is given to the one with the highest price. So, this is why I did not want to come out openly. I knew that, to some extent, people did not understand what they were debating.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, I have to state that I am well read.

Hon. UPND Members: No! Where?

Mr Mung’andu: If people cannot distinguish between a sale and an auction, then we have a problem. Why do you auction? You auction in order to sell. What is auctioning? It is a process of inviting competition in the process of selling. So, Mr Speaker, I invite you to check my academic acumen.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: I am well read. Let me come to the Motion.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

I think I have guided on this issue.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We are not here to parade who is read and who is not. Let us stick to the Motion because we may be quite sentimental to the wrong ideas that we may perceive at a particular time and stick to our belief. Ultimately, what is important is to ensure that we stick to our Motion because there is a clear distinction between selling and auctioning. For both of them, the ultimate goal is to make a sale, but there is always a distinction in the manner they are conducted.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: I agree with you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Unless one is conflicted and intentionally so by choosing to not understand what auctioning and selling are. The two are different …

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: … with a different intent. You may continue.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, I agree with you. The ultimate purpose of auctioning is selling.

Mr Speaker, as a country, we should begin to trust ourselves. We cannot have a country that wants to look at foreigners as the only people who can own the means of acquiring national assets. If this country is to develop, it is just fair, Mr Speaker, that Zambians own all types of assets; the assets that are underground, on the ground and, indeed, above the soil. They should be owned by us. It is clear that our friends on the right do not believe in Zambians owning assets.

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Mr Mung’andu: If they oppose this Motion, they do not believe in their youth. I want to tell them that they are seated there because the youth sacrificed. For us on the left, we want their youth to be empowered. A number of them cannot afford brand new vehicles. So, they should give them the opportunity to buy a second hand Land Cruiser or motorbike unlike offering them to foreigners. That is what we are advocating.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, as hon. Members on your left, we want your youths to be empowered. We know that a number of them cannot afford brand new vehicles. Therefore, they should be given an opportunity to buy second-hand cruisers. They should be given an opportunity to buy second-hand motorbikes instead of offering those things to foreigners. This is what we are advocating for. The youths will be very shocked to learn that the Government does not want that to happen.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, we want to say to the youths in UPND, “Sit down with your leaders and let them empower you. You suffered but they are here enjoying. It is also your time to enjoy.”

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: We are speaking on their behalf, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I wish to support the Motion.

Mr Nkulukusa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Katuba an opportunity to contribute to this Motion. Clearly, if it were soccer, I would say that my brother from Bahati, hit an own goal during the friendlies. A week ago, if I remember, when the Government exercised what we call, ‘positive discrimination’ by awarding a contract to a local manufacturer of fertiliser, we saw the hon. Members on your left, Mr Speaker, rise against that decision. They said that that was bad and yet, that was the only local company that produced fertiliser. It is a public asset because the Government has shares in that company.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: onToday, they have turned around to bring this Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkulukusa: Secondly, Mr Speaker, if people dare to read the United Party for National Development (UPND) Manifesto –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I rise on Standing Order No. 65, that the information that we give to this House should be factual and verifiable.

Mr Speaker, the United Capital Fertiliser is not Zambian-owned. It is a foreign-owned company. Therefore, is the hon. Member in order to mislead the House? Should he tell us when the Chinese became Zambians?

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Since the hon. Member who rose on a point of order has not presented facts for me to be able to …

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: … know that such a particular firm is owned by Zambians or the Chinese, it is difficult for me to make a ruling. However, I encourage people who raise points of order to substantiate their claims so that I am able to know who owns what and at what particular time.

May the hon. Member debating, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, it is very easy to know. For instance, we all know that Marcopolo Tiles Company Limited is a holding company and the Government has shares in it. If people want to verify this information, they can go to the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA). I visited that plant just two weeks ago, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, before I interrupted, I was talking about the issue of positive discrimination and action. We should not put up laws to disadvantage foreigners because Zambia is not an island. Somebody here said that the United Kingdom (UK) did not privatise to foreigners but to locals. If we check today, you will find that UK has more than US$2.3 trillion of inward investment from outside. Our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is only K23 billion. We do not have the capacity to stop people from investing in our country. What this Motion is saying is that investors should not come and invest here. Investors come either in green or grey field investments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, the procurement of mines or the running certain assets is called grey field investment because it increases our GDP. Today, we are among the lowest developed countries in the sub–Saharan Africa. Zambia is equivalent to countries like Zimbabwe which is number twenty-eight, Malawi which is at number thirteen, Namibian which is around number fourteen. Zambia is number twenty-two. Honestly, we cannot be proud of that. We need to grow our economy both locally and internationally.

 

Mr Speaker, what you do if you want to be among the League of Nations, is not to put barbaric laws that position or profile you to be a bad destination. If you put those barbaric laws, then, you are not going to attract investors. What you do is to put such laws as policies like the UPND have done in their manifesto, where they have said wherever possible, they are going to support the local people so that they can see them grow and increase production in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, that is why I mentioned that if there is one local company that can employ over 2,000 employees but we give it positive discrimination, then we are fighting it. Then, again, they are saying that we need to give the local people the same things. In strategy, it does not work. You cannot eat with both hands.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Nkulukusa: You have to choose whether you want to grow your economy by inviting investment or not. With US$23 billion as GDP, you cannot rely on your local investment alone to grow the economy.

Mr Speaker, like my brother from Luena said, when we look at public assets, we are looking at the airspace, the mines and anything that belongs to the country. We need to invite investors. If we start to entertain such Motions, in a House of laws like this, we will be threatening investors. Therefore, if we have restrictive regulations and laws that bar investment, we can become one of the bad destinations for foreign direct investment (FDI). That hits the economy and things like job creation can be a challenge. At the end of the day, we will continue to grapple in this country.

Mr Speaker, sometimes, we tend to wonder whether politicians go to different business schools.  

Interruptions

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, I am a politician and I am wondering because the truth of the matter is that, when you are looking at – Tell me which country is doing that. In the 1980s, when they tried to move in that direction in America, we saw how the motor industry went down. It was beaten by Japan.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, they had to rise and open up because when they do that, it means that they have the capacity to compete. Capacity to compete means they have to belong to the global village. A country cannot be an island. If a country remains an island, it will not have the capacity to compete and every time, it will be crying. We are not saying that we do not want to favour our local people or citizens. That is why in the UPND Manifesto, it is clear, and I invite all the hon. Members to read the UPND manifesto. It clearly states that the first factor that increases support to the local people is positive action. Positive action means to identify citizens and encourage them to participate so that when they have the capacity, then they are given positive discrimination.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkulukusa: That way, the economy of the country would grow, strategically. It reminds me of the father of today, who always thinks that giving his child fast foods since they are sweet, that is growing the child.

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkulukusa: He is actually not sustaining his child. He needs to make sure that he invites competition. So, by this point, I am saying that ...

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Nkulukusa: … we need to go to Tanzania, for example.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, there is a point of order.

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chewe: Mr Speaker, thank you so much for according me this opportunity to raise a point of order.

Mr Speaker, Standing Order No. 20 is clear and talks about the President’s Address to this august House. Allow me to quote the President’s Speech which was delivered to this honourable House. When the President was addressing this august House, he indicated on page 10 of the speech as follows:

“The New Dawn Administration is a firm believer in democratic governance because it accords our people the opportunity to actively participate in decision-making for the betterment of our country and empower the indigenous Zambians.”

Now, my point, Mr Speaker –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order! I did not hear the word before Zambians.

Mr Chewe: Indigenous Zambians.

Interruptions

 

Mr Chewe: Mr Speaker, we are talking about indigenous Zambians, and in this case, we are talking of empowering the Zambian people. Are our hon. Colleagues on your right in order to go against what the President said, about empowering the Zambian people? The President understands that the Zambian people are the owners of this country and the public assets. When they are given an opportunity to acquire assets – are our colleagues in order to not provide an opportunity to the Zambian people who are supposed to benefit from the auction of public assets? My colleagues can afford, but some people cannot compete with the foreigners just like other hon. Colleagues have alluded to. Are they in order to go against the President’s directive in his speech?

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I just want to guide you that our Standing Orders are clear that we should not bring the President or the Head of State into our debates. So, the hon. Member is debating the Motion and he is not out of order.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Nkulukusa: Mr Speaker, let me windup by saying that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government will continue to support indigenous people. We will also support the local people, whether indigenous or not, but we will use the strategic and methodical way of positive action and positive discrimination. By putting up barbaric Bills and laws, we will not gain competitive advantage because we want to be in the league of nations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We will conclude in this order; the hon. Member for Chasefu, the hon. Member for Wusakile, and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development will speak on behalf of the Government.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chasefu, to add a word to the debate on this Motion. I will be very basic and I will not go into the details of the semantics.

Mr Speaker, governance demands that we humble ourselves and look at the way we are running the affairs of the country. I have always insisted that from the discourse, we seem to be polarised.

Mr Speaker, when you look at this Motion, you will realise that it is not necessary to come up with such a Motion. Why do I say so? You cannot come up with laws of how to walk or open your door. Those are supposed to sit in subsidiary policies or regulations. Restricting the sale of public assets to Zambians, in this global talk, does not work. It is important to fix that which is broken, but I do not see the mischief that is there for us to have this Motion.

Mr Speaker, we are directing our vigour to this Motion; there is no need for this. Currently, we have not seen anything wrong. There is what they call positive discrimination which the President indicated. We can deal with particular issues and chose the people to empower. So, if we are sober, it is not necessary to look at the Motion. These issues can be addressed in the subsidiary regulations. However, if we restrict the sale of public assets to the Zambians, we are going to kill this country. There will be no commerce. Why do people auction? They want to get the best out of the assets. If a foreigner will give me more money for my property, well and good, let him get it. So, if we restrict the sale of public assets to the Zambians, we will not help this country.

Interruptions

Mr Nyambose: I am being sincere. Where I am standing, I can see my friends murmuring. When we are debating, they want to see whether we are with them or not. The fact is they must be reasonable.

Interruptions

r Nyambose: Mr Speaker, I want to indicate that they are bringing these issues now, yet they were in power and saw it fit to do that. However, the now want the Government to implement that proposal and they are saying that with so much vigour, yet they have not cited what has not been working well. Zambians are participating in the auctions and any other person is free to participate to grow our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). They get value out of their assets and so far, we have not seen anything wrong. Where necessary, the Government or the President will say this will be restricted to this. We are moving as a country. You cannot come up with a law on everything, for example, a law on opening a door. We are going to break this country.

Mr Speaker, I submit, and I do not support this Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment on the Motion on the Floor moved by the hon. Member for Bahati and ably supported by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Mr Speaker, an auction sale is the public sale of goods and property to the highest bidder. People should underline the term ‘the highest bidder’, even when we bring in the issue of positive discrimination. In a certain locality, obviously, the highest bidder will emerge, and people should not fight. So, the Motion is non-controversial. With passage of time, the assets the Government has to be sold so that it realises some revenue. We need to reverse this and if we do not do that, we risk dispossessing the local people in this country.

 

Mr Speaker, our communities are flooded with foreign nationals who are ‘awashed’ with a lot of money. If we allow the foreign nationals to continue bidding for public assets, we will be perpetuating poverty. We need coherence in what we mean by a citizen-owned and citizen-empowered economy. Our vision on a citizen-owned and citizen-empowered agenda should be of looking for a silver lining in the economy. Where does the silver lining lie in the economy? It lies in the productive sectors.

 

Mr Speaker, history has proven that he who has the means of production, controls the economy.  We have learnt lessons from what happened after the privatisation of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), the Zambia Consumer Buying Cooperation (ZCBC) and Mwaiseni stores. All those entities went to foreign nationals. In short, our economy is in the hands of foreigners. Over 90 per cent of the productive sector is run by foreigners.  However, we have seen very little patriotism in the foreigners who are running the productive sector of our economy, to an extent where we are even witnessing economic sabotage. An example is in the mining sector. We have seen pronouncements of putting a mine on care and maintenance thereby arm-twisting the Government. That is economic sabotage. It is in the productive sectors where we want citizens to have a foothold so that we prevent such. The foreigners do not want to pay taxes.

Mr Speaker, everything we discuss here is related to governance. We need to ask ourselves: Why restrict auctioning of public assets to the citizens? We want our citizens to be empowered because it is one of the programmes of the New Dawn Government.

Mr Speaker, I am a very strong supporter of some pronouncements made by the President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: Yes!

There are some pronouncements that inspire me very much. Remember, at one point when he was addressing the media at State House, he used words that whoever would be a contender, at that time, should be strong because he would raise the bar. That statement would inspire any normal person. The Government has indicated that in its governance it wants a home-grown economic transformation. That is the Government’s agenda. How is it going to come? The citizens should be empowered.

Mr Speaker, my hon. Colleague from Katuba just indicated what the ruling party’s manifesto says on supporting local people. This is what it means and this is one way of achieving that. You would not get that answer from one sector. There are many of things that need to be brought on board and this is one of them; restricting the sale of public assets to the citizens as a way of empowering them.

Madam Speaker, when I look at the way issues are, even though the United Party for National Development (UPND) wants a home-grown economic transformation, they have been exposed as a party. The micro-economic fundamentals are showing so. The Government has given many concessions to mining multi-nationals, yet the interest and exchange rates are rising and the under subscribed Treasury Bills are showing us that our economy is not ...

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: … not driven by ourselves. It is not home-grown. It is western driven. So, this is the only way we can come out of that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Walifishiba iwe!

Mr Kalobo: Empower your citizens.

Mr Speaker, we do not need to politick where the empowering of citizens is concerned. That is why the UPND assumed the governance. It promised to do better than the Patriotic Front (PF).

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: You are not doing it. I have just said that micro-economic fundamentals have exposed you. You have successfully managed to impoverish the people of Zambia through the high cost of living.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: Is that doing better?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kalobo: Mr Speaker, akachila kambushi kasengula epokekele.

Mr Kasandwe: Charity begins at home!

Mr Kalobo: Mr Speaker, it means that we need to sweep our backyards first before jumping on private chartered jets to go and seek financial bailouts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: Mr Speaker, home-grown solutions means looking inwards. That is why I am saying the Government must empower its citizens and look inwards.

Mr Speaker, even in the mining sector, people have demonstrated. I keep saying it. The record on the Hansard can show. When Anglo-America abruptly pulled out of Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), a Zambian mining expert by the name of Jordan Soko run that mine for two years and kept the labour force of more than 22,000 until Vedanta Resources Limited took over, and started retrenching people anyhow. So, Zambians have the capacity.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Speaker, thank you very much.

Mr Speaker, let me just reinforce what my Colleagues said earlier on in their debates. As the Government, we do not support the Motion. The matter is straightforward.

Mr Chilangwa: Why?

Mr Nkombo: Hon. Chilangwa, I am just about to tell you why.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, firstly it is an affront to the Constitution.

Mr Mutale: Why?

Mr Nkombo: Do you still want to know how?

Mr Mutale: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: Go to Part III of the Constitution, which addresses the Bill of Rights. Then go to the Republican Constitution at Part (I) Section (1). I am glad that hon. Munir Zulu referred to the Constitution. I will read it for you Hon. Remember Mutale, it says:

“1. (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic of Zambia and any other written law, customary law and customary practice that is inconsistent with its provisions is void to the extent of the inconsistency.”

Mr Speaker, anything that speaks to discrimination is void to the extent of the inconsistency. As a matter of fact, in the same Article at Part (2) it says:

“(2) An act or omission that contravenes this Constitution is illegal”.

Mr Speaker, this is clear and straightforward; it is illegal. The Constitution in Part I, Article (1) (3) goes on to say that:

“(3) This Constitution shall bind all persons in Zambia, State organs and State institutions.”

Mr Speaker, this includes the institution where we are at. Now, we must be mindful that we live in a global village. As we push this, which I describe as a very narrow agenda, which from what I heard in the bulk of the debate is restricted to motor vehicles, which they also went on to qualify and said that obsolete motor vehicles –

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: That is what they said. They said obsolete equipment.

Mr Speaker, you do not grow an economy by buying obsolete equipment. As a matter of fact, economies that have grown have not grown in that way. On this continent, when you go to South Africa, you will find that they have assembly plants for motor vehicles. However, here, we found a situation where even a US$200 motor vehicle could be allowed to come into this country, and after three months, it is suspended on stones. This is what they are advocating for. They are advocating for Zambians to buy obsolete equipment.

Mr Speaker, in their interpretation, they said that is how you grow the economy. They sometimes even misquoted the President that he is a champion of such kind of thinking. He is not. The President is the champion of redeeming the economy. He is the champion of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), which is the value of the goods and services that are traded in the country in a given. The President found the economy at minus 4 per cent, but now we are trading at around 3 per cent. So, there is no issue of auctioning vehicles in the movement of economic growth. There is none.

Mr Speaker, it is also good to be mindful that we live in a global village. As you exclude non-Zambians from participating in the so-called auction of public assets, do you know that just in Malawi, – not to even take the argument far, some Zambians live in Botswana, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Zimbabwe. Should those countries also isolate them from participating in auctions? Come with me to logic. Should it be that way? What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Mr Speaker, if we agree to take the route proposed by my brother, Hon. Chibombwe, whom I really urged, and I thought he would withdraw this Motion when arguments started popping up, does he honestly think that it would be fair if Malawians took that route, and said that only they should participate? What about the Zambians in Lilongwe? It still speaks to the grand norm, the fundamental law we live by is under Part III of the Constitution, unless you change that part of the Constitution to make discrimination legal. As you would want to maybe, deal with the issues of affirmative action and preservation orders to allow people to trade, …

Hon. Opposition Member Interjected.

Mr Nkombo: … it has been tried before under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), which falls under Hon. Mubanga’s ministry. There is a law; a reservation order, that compels certain industries such as broiler chicken rearing and block making to be restricted to locals. Has it worked? It has not worked, yet it is in our statutes.

In addition, Mr Speaker, it is very easy to do trial and error. The debate points I picked from most of the hon. Colleagues is that people outside of this House are listening. So what if people are listening? Does it change anything? We have to be logical. We have to follow the law. Should we sell our homes because people are listening and depart from being logical? No. we have a duty to correct each other and, in this case, I want to correct my friend, Hon. Chibombwe. If he had couched this Motion in a manner that was specific to motor vehicles, to sundries, chattels, as my friend from Limulunga said, maybe, it would have deserved some support. However, can you imagine that, today, if you wanted to sell ZESCO Limited, as a government asset, and you had this kind of Motion approved by this supreme House, which Zambian would afford to buy it? It has been tried before. Do not forget that ZESCO Limited was up for sale sometime in the past. This is was a bid by those who were governing, at the time, to commercialise it. It stayed for twelve years without service or maintenance waiting for a Zambian to buy it. That is when we lost the window for developing that utility. What has happened today?

Mr Speaker, if the Motion had isolated certain aspects as the case is in the reservation order under CEEC that states that block making, paving, and chicken runs, as much as possible, should only be carried out by Zambians, but not a blanket matter such as auctioning of any public asset. This is unchartered waters. It is a dangerous treading ground. The Motion, innocent as it looks, is extremely dangerous. I invite the hon. Member to read Part III of our Constitution because it is actually where the Bill of Rights is found. You cannot exclude people from economic activities. The law does not permit it.

Mr Mundubile entered the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Nkombo: I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition, who is a lawyer did not –

I was biting my fingers hoping that he would stand up to debate because he understands what I am talking about. Hon. Mundubile understands that the Bill of Rights, –

Mr Mundubile switched on his microphone.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: We are on the same side.

Mr Speaker, in the last assignment, we tried to have a referendum, but we left it untouched, and that is true. The Constitution is very clear that any law, written or otherwise, that is inconsistent with the provisions of this Constitution is null and void to the extent of its inconsistency. Just that part is enough for Hon. Chibombwe to have realised that this Motion actually offends other laws.

Mr Speaker, I urge hon. Members from both the right and left, in the interest of time, not to even go to a vote. This is because, firstly, the obvious will happen; they will lose. Secondly, after having said that it is against the Constitution, who wants to go against the Constitution?

I beg to move, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombwe: Mr Speaker, indeed, it is a sad evening for Zambians, especially those who voted for the United Party for National Development (UPND). They have now seen for themselves that the people they voted for are actually not here to support Zambians. The people they voted for are here to support foreigners.

Mr Speaker, I stand here on behalf of thousands of government workers and those who work in parastatal companies owned by the State, and those who see public assets being bought by foreigners and externalised.

Mr Speaker, I have worked for the Government for twenty-two years, and I do not think Hon. Garry Nkombo had that opportunity.

Laughter

Mr Chibombwe: Mr Speaker, most of the public assets are auctioned by foreigners.

Mr Nkombo Interjected.

Mr Chibombwe: Assets that belong to the Government of Zambia are auctioned by foreign auctioneers. Do your research Hon. Garry Nkombo, and you will learn.

Mr Speaker, recently, when there was an auction sale at the Kariba South Bank in Zimbabwe, Zambians from Siavonga who wanted to participate in that auction were chased.

Hon. Member: That is a rogue State.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Chibombwe: Mr speaker, allow me to thank those who have supported this Motion. This Motion came from your office and so, for the hon. Minister to say that the Motion is narrow thinking, I do not know what he is talking about. Why is he undermining your office?

Mr Kalobo: Why is he undermining your office?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Wusakile, why are you debating whilst seated?

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Member: He wanted to speak through him, indirectly.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Do you want to be directing the proceedings?

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Mutale: Ah!

Mr Speaker, but you denied us a point of order.

Mr Nkombo: I rise on a serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, resume your seat. Let me guide the House.

Hon. Member for Chitambo, even if you are so hyper, learn to, …

Mr Mutale Interjected.

Mr Nkombo: I have a point of order …

Mr Mutale Interjected.

Mr Nkombo: My point of order is directed at the hon. Member for Bahati, …

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Listen, this House has rules. If you want to indicate – Last week, we were just reading, …

Mr Mutale: … but I indicated my intention to raise a point of order, mwachikana.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: … but you cannot tell me what to do.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Listen, when Hon. Nkombo indicated, …

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, the other hon. Member also indicated.

Interruptions.

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, what we are demanding is equity. I serve the interests of the hon. Members on your left.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, the best way is for someone to indicate, and I will be able to identify him/her. However, the hon. Members are indicating and talking on top of their voices. Our rules say that when you indicate –

Hon. Mutale interjected.

Interruptions

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, leave the Assembly Chamber.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Mutale left the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. PF Members left the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Goodbye.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order 65. I want to quote what Hon. Chibombwe said in reference to his profession. He said he is somebody who had worked for the Government for twenty-two years and that I had no option and privilege to work in the Government.

Mr Speaker, I inform this House that I left the University of Zambia in 1988 and worked for the Government in Luanshya for two years. I worked for the National Archives in Zambia for another two years. I understand how the Civil Service operates.

Mr Speaker, is he, therefore, in order to insinuate that I have not had an opportunity to work for the Government and that he understands better how Government systems work?

 

I seek your serious ruling, as you make it, state that the behaviour that you saw here is what happens when an argument is lost.

 

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati was obviously out of order ...

Hon. Government Members: ... because he was trying to put up a situation that he did not understand. The hon. Minister has worked in the Civil Service before. In this House, we should always be factual. Whatever we say should have proof. So, let us ensure that whatever utterance we make is something that we are able to prove.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Chibombwe: Mr Speaker, this Motion is straightforward. For the hon. Minister to say it is narrow, is to demean your office, especially that it was approved by your office.

Mr Speaker, auction and investment are two different things. My brother, Hon. Nkulukusa, talked about investment in relation to auction. These are two different things. We need investors to bring-in foreign direct investment (FDI), but what we are hoping for or what we wanted the Government to support is that each time it auctions public assets, Zambians should come first because this is their country. We say that it is the Government of the people and for the people. Therefore, the people should benefit from the assets of the Government.

Mr Speaker, allow me to thank those who supported this Motion; Hon. Kang’ombe for seconding the Motion, the hon. Member for Lumezi, the hon. Member for Chama South and the hon. Member for Wusakile. For those who did not support the Motion, I elect to be civil. I will use a civil word. I will not use the word that Hon. Munir Zulu used, kutumpa. I say, please, next time, try to support Zambians.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question that this House urges the Government to restrict auctioning of public assets to Zambians only put and negatived.

MOTION OF THANKS

The Minister for Central Province (Mr Nanjuwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make a contribution to the debate on the speech which was delivered by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, in accordance with Article 8 of the Constitution of Zambia. I will restrict myself to what we have done as the Central Province in response to what His Excellency talked about during his address to this Assembly.

Mr Speaker, as the Central Province, we are alive to the fact that morality and ethics are key to the attainment of socioeconomic development. In 2022, the provincial administration, working with the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, took an initiative to sensitise our traditional leaders across the province, and twenty-six of our Chiefs in the province, out of the thirty-three, were sensitised on the dangers of child marriage and teenage pregnancy. We are glad to report that since then, their Royal Highnesses have been able to escalate this sensitisation programme to their subjects.

Mr Speaker, in order to curb alcohol and substance abuse in the province, we sensitised a total number of 43,087 individuals and organisations on the dangers of drug abuse. Further, we reached out to more than 30,702 pupils through various awareness strategies such as advocacy meetings, adolescent health education and psychosocial counselling of victims.

Mr Speaker, in fulfilment of patriotism and national unity, a total of 11,896 people from religious groups and institutions were engaged in volunteer community services under the Keep Kabwe, Green, Clean and Healthy Campaign. That has also been escalated to all the districts in the province.

Mr Speaker, working in collaboration with the Zambia Police, the province engaged all political parties on the importance of maintaining peace during and after by-elections in the province.

Mr Speaker, this was exhibited during the council chairmanship, ward by-elections, which took place in the province, in Mkushi, Serenje and Luano. There was no record of violence because of the sensitisation to our political party cadres. All these by-elections, I am glad to report that the United Party for National Development (UPND), which is the party in Government, was able to scoop with a land slide margin, because some of these political parties, cannot win an election without violence.

Mr Speaker, issues of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), as the Provincial Administration in Central Province …

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Members: He has come back!

Laughter

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, this is where I belong. Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, my point of order is to do with the procedure of the House. I have been prompted to rise on this very serious point of order because of the manner in which we conduct business in the House.

 

Mr Speaker, at the time we were passing the Motion; when we had to vote to show whether the other people had won or not, including this time – I want to bring to your attention  the question of whether we are fit to continue transacting when the quorum has collapsed.

 

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, we are still consulting the Clerks-at-the-Table. We will get back to you at an appropriate time because some hon. Members are logged in virtually.

May the hon. Minister Continue.

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, as I was saying, on issues of the CDF, us in Central Province believe that the introduction of the increased CDF, from the time the New Dawn Government took up office has actually …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

I have been advised by the Clerks-at-the-Table that we have no quorum.

Business was suspended from 1843 hours until 1851 hours.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, according to Standing Order No. 224, when there is no quorum during proceedings, the bell is rung for five minutes. Unless a quorum is previously present, the Speaker shall, after a further two minutes, order a count of the House, and if there is no quorum still in the House, the question will not be put.

Hon. Members, in accordance with the provisions, there is still no quorum. So, I am proceeding to adjourn the House as provided by Standing Order No. 224.

_______

The House adjourned at 1852 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 16^th March, 2023.

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