Thursday, 15^th December, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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RULINGS BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINTOF ORDER RAISED BY MR F. C. CHAATILA, MEMBER OFPARLIAMENT FOR MOOMBA CONSTITUENCY, AGAINSTMR C. C. KANG’OMBE, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAMFINSA CONSTITUENCY FOR WALKING OUT OFTHE HOUSE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE HON. MADAMFIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER RULED AGAINST HIM

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Friday, 2^ndDecember,2022, when the House was considering Vote 62 – Ministryof Energy, under Programme 2101, and Dr A. D. Mwanza, hon. MemberofParliament for KaumbweConstituency wasdebating, Mr F. C.Chaatila, hon. Member of ParliamentforMoomba Constituency, raised a point of order premisedon Standing Order No. 204(4).

In his point of order, MrF. C. Chaatila, MP,inquiredwhether Mr C. C. Kang’ombe, hon. Member of Parliament forKamfinsa Constituency was in order to walk out of theHouse immediately after the Hon. Madam First DeputySpeaker ruled against him, and before the hon. Ministercould respond to his question.

Hon. Members, StandingOrder No. 204 states, among others, as follows:

“204 Parliamentary Decorum and Etiquette

1. Parliamentary decorum and etiquette refers to an essential standard of behaviour that a member must observe in the House in order to maintain the dignity and decency of the House.

(2) A member shall observe the following rules ofparliamentary etiquette:

(k) a member shall not leave the House immediatelyafter debating.Instead, afterdebating, a membershall resume his or her seat to listen to debates ofother members and only leave the House afterwards,if necessary.”

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the hon. MadamFirst DeputySpeaker, sitting as Chairperson of theCommittee of Supply, reserved her ruling. I have sincestudied the matter, and will now deliver my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order raises the issue of breachof parliamentary etiquette and decorumby an hon. Memberleaving the Chamber immediately after the ruling of theSpeaker or before his or her question has been respondedto.

The background of the point of orderisthatMr C. C. Kang’ombe, MP, asked the hon. Minister of Energy whether K255,515,961indicated under Programme 2101 – Petroleum Development and Management also providedresources to assist the engineers perform under the newbusiness model for INDENIPetroleum Refinery Company Ltd.

MrC.C. Kang’ombe, MP, then proceeded to ask a second questionunder Programme 2103–Renewable and Alternative EnergyDevelopment.This prompted the Chairperson to interrupt him and guidethat he could only ask one question to allow others to askquestions as well. She added that if time permitted, he could be called upon again. When the hon. Minister ofEnergy began to respond to Mr C.C. Kang’ombe, MP’s firstquestion, Mr Kang’ombe, MP, walked out of the Chamber,hence, the point of order by Mr F.C.Chaatila, MP.

Hon. Members, as rightly stated in Mr F.C.Chaatila, MP’spoint of order, parliamentary etiquette requires an hon. Memberwho has concluded speaking or who asked a question toresume his or her seat before leaving the Chamber. This isto ensure that such an hon. Member should personally hear theresponse on the subject that the hon. Member may have raisedon the Floor of the House.

Failure to do so is a display of adiscourteous behaviour on the part of the hon. Member not onlyto my office but to the House as a whole. Such conductamounts to a breach of parliamentary etiquette.

In this regard, Mr C.C. Kang’ombe, MP, was out of order.

I thank you.

POINT OFORDERRAISED BYMR MUNIR ZULU, MEMBER OFPARLIAMENT FOR LUMEZI CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST HON. ELVIS NKANDU, MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND ARTS,FOR ALLEGEDLY REFERRING TO HIMAS “THISSMALLBOY” WHEN THE HOUSE WASDEBATING VOTE 36 –ZAMBIA CORRECTIONAL SERVICE COMMISSION

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Tuesday, 8^thNovember, 2022,when the House was considering Vote 36– Zambia Correctional Service Commission, and Mr Cliff Mpundu, hon. Member of Parliament for Chembe Constituency was debating,Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency,raised a point of order.

The gist of his point of order was whether Hon. Elvis Nkandu,Minister of Youth, SportandArts was in order to useunparliamentary language by referring to Mr Munir Zulu, MP,as “This small boy” in his running comments.

Mr Munir Zulu, MP,stated that thestatement by Hon. E. Nkandu, MP, was contrary toStanding Order 66 of the National Assembly of ZambiaStandingOrders, 2021.He further sought theindulgence of the Chairperson on the matter.

In her immediate response on the point of order, the Hon. MadamFirst Deputy Speaker, sitting as Chairperson of the Committee ofSupply, reserved her ruling to study the matter.

I have sincereviewedtheverbatimrecordoftheproceedingsforTuesday, 8^thNovember, 2022, and will now render myruling.

Hon. Members, our rulesprohibit the useofunparliamentary language in the House. To this effect,Standing Order 66 states:

“(1) Unparliamentary language refers to the use ofoffensive, provocative, insulting, threatening orobscene language in the House.”

(2) A member shall not use unparliamentarylanguage in the House.

(3) A member who alleges that another member hasused unparliamentary language in the House mayimmediately raise a Point of Order.”

In line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and inaccordancewiththe rulesof natural justice, on6^thDecember, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Hon. E. Nkandu, requesting him to state his side of the story.

In his response, Hon. E. Nkandu confirmedutteringthestatement.Headded that he normally referredtoMrMunir Zulu, MP, in that manner because they are tribalcousins.In that regard, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: ... he had no idea that Mr MunirZulu, MP, would take offence. Further, the hon. Ministerapologised for his conduct.

Hon. Members, Standing Order 204 provides for the rulesofparliamentary decorum and etiquette, which is theessentialstandardof behaviour that an hon. Membermustobserve in the House.Standing Order 204 (2)(v) refers tohow hon. Members should refer to each other in the House asfollows:

“A Member shall be referred to by his orher constituency name and not by individual name.”

Additionally, the National Assembly of Zambia Members’ Handbook 2006,Chapter Three ontheRulesofDebate, Time and Manner of Speaking, at page 14, states:

“Every other Member of the House shall be referredto as “Honourable” together with the name of his orher Constituency ..."

In view of the foregoing, it is a breach of parliamentaryetiquette for an hon. Member to refer to a fellow hon. Member as“small boy” in the House.Hon. E. Nkandu, MP, was,therefore, outof order.

According to StandingOrder204(3), an hon. Member who breaches a rule of etiquette maybe sent out for a day.

Hon. Members, given the fact thatHon. E. Nkandu, MP, is a first offender and readilyapologised for his conduct, I have decided to exerciseleniency.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker:I, therefore, urge him to observe the rules ofparliamentary etiquette and desist from bringing tribalcousinship into the House.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON MR KAKUBO, HON. MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION, ON SOUTH AFRICANS SELLING VEHICLES IN ZAMBIA

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, this matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation.

Madam Speaker, South Africans come to Zambia with their vehicles and sell them to Zambians. Those Zambians who buy these vehicles sometimes go into debt because they get loans from the banks to buy these vehicles from the South Africans who come into our country to sell them. Immediately the South Africans sell the vehicles, they go back to their country and report that the vehicles were stolen. The International Criminal Police Organisation (Interpol) then comes to Zambia and starts looking for these vehicles and gets them. When Interpol gets these vehicles, our people who borrowed money to buy the vehicles lose out.

Madam Speaker, last night, bailiffs went and collected everything from two businessmen who got loans to buy cars. These businessmen even wanted to commit suicide. As we talk right now, they are in hospital. I do not know whether they took sophisticated medicine they wanted to take their lives with.

Madam Speaker, before we lose many lives in Zambia because of these South Africans who come and do day light robbery, we are asking for your indulgence.

Madam Speaker, we are losing a lot of money. Look, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning would have had a lot of money, but South Africans are busy robbing us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us make some progress. We have a lot of work on our Table today.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, I am sure there are other means and ways that you can use to follow-up that matter. Definitely, it does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.

We can make progress.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

ATTACKS ON POLICE OFFICERS AND DEAD BODIES IN NGWERERE 

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, let me thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a ministerial statement on matters of urgent public importance raised by Hon. Joel Chibuye and Hon. Sydney Mushanga, Members of Parliament for Roan and Bwacha constituencies, respectively.

Madam, the statement relates to attacks on police officers in Mpongwe District and the dead bodies found in Ngwerere in Lusaka.

Madam Speaker, brief facts in the matter regarding attacks on police officers in Mpongwe are that on Friday, 9^th December, 2022, around 0430 hours, Mpongwe Police Station received a report of assault occasioning actual bodily harm in which two police officers of Mpongwe Police Station sustained multiple cuts on their heads, swollen faces and general body pains after being assaulted by a known person at Mpongwe trading area. A plank and cement block are alleged to have been used to inflict the injuries on the officers. The report was made by a security officer of Mpongwe Termite Shop.

Madam Speaker, the police officers were attacked by a truck driver of a Volvo truck Registration No. AJD 4464 belonging to Gada Farms in Chibombo District. The driver had earlier reported a case of theft from motor vehicle in which he alleged that unknown people had stolen one bag of fertiliser from his truck. He further indicated that he suspected that his lorry mate was involved. Investigations were instituted and the two officers went to where the truck was parked in the company of the driver.They apprehended the suspect and started going back to the police station, leaving the driver at the truck parking point.

Madam Speaker,while the police officers were walking back to the station with the suspect, the driver, who was seemingly drunk, appeared armed with a plank and hit one of the officers on the head. When the other officer tried to intervene, he was equally hit on the head with the plank. The suspect who was apprehended ran away and witnessed the ordeal from a distance, while a security officer who also saw what had happened rushed to the police station and reported the matter. The driver was later apprehended by other officers and is in police custody. The two injured officers were rushed to Mpongwe Mission Hospital where they were admitted before being transferred to Roan Hospital in Luanshya as their conditions were described as serious.

Madam Speaker,later in the day, one of the officers died due to injuries whilst admitted to the intensive care unit at Roan Hospital. Apost-mortem examination has since been conducted on the body and results are being awaited. The other officer has been referred to Ndola Teaching Hospital. His condition is still serious. Investigations are intensively going on.

Madam Speaker, I offer profound sympathy to the family and friends of the deceased on behalf of the Government and, indeed, on my own behalf. I also wish the officer in hospital a speedy recovery.

Madam Speaker, it is sickening to see continuous attacks on police officers, threatening their lives and those of their families for simply carrying out the law and doing their job. Police officers are also citizens who are entitled to safety. Should their lives be put in immediate danger, they havethe right to use whatever is at their disposal, including firearms, to protect themselves.I would like to quote from the Zambia Police Act, Chapter 107, Section 24 of the Laws of Zambia, as read together with the Zambia Police Instructions Manual, 2010 Edition, Section 275 (3) (a), wherein it states as follows:

“… it is justifiable for a police officer to use a fire arm when he is attacked and his life is in danger, andthere are no other means by which he can save his life.”

Madam Speaker, based on that premise, I would like to state as clear as it can be stated that there is no place in this country for violence against police officers, no place for endangering the lives of law enforcement officers, nor is there a place for endangering the life of any member of the general public. At all times, the law shall be enforced to the fullest.

Madam Speaker, I would like to state that members of the public should desist from making these wanton attacks against law enforcement agencies. If any one member of the public is found wanting, appropriate action will be taken against all those who will be involved.

Madam Speaker, I now turn to the other matter which I was requested to issue a statement on. This relates to the twenty-eight bodies which were found in Ngwerere.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the matter in which dead bodies were found in Ngwerere area in Lusaka, brief facts are that on Sunday, 11^th December, 2022, around 0600 hours, members of the public in Lusaka’s MeanwoodNkhosi area, discovered dead bodies along Chaminuka Road and notified the police. The police rushed to the scene where they found twenty-seven dead bodies and one person still feebly breathing among the dead bodies. He was rushed to the hospital for medical attention.

Madam Speaker, preliminary investigations so far indicate that the victims were all males aged between twenty and forty years. They were dumped by unknown people suspected to be human traffickers or smugglers. Investigations are being conducted to bring the perpetrators of this crime to book and to establish the countries where the victims may have come from.

Madam Speaker, at this juncture, I want to inform the House that we have made progress. We have identified the vehicles that were used to dump the bodies and we have made some arrests. Further investigations are taking place. The members of the public through this House at an appropriate time will be informed.

Madam Speaker, all the twenty-seven bodies were deposited at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) mortuary awaiting possible formal identification and post-mortem. The survivor is in a medical facility where he is receiving medical attention.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that suspected cases of human trafficking and smuggling are on the increase in Zambia. It is disheartening to lose lives in such a manner. I share grief with all friends and relatives connected to the deceased. To curb the scourge of human trafficking and smuggling of migrants, the ministry has put in place the following measures:

1. developed the National Policy on Human Trafficking and Smuggling of Migrants, which has since been launched;
2. reviewed and enacted the Anti-Human Trafficking Act No. 16 of 2022;
3. established a department dedicated to human trafficking and smuggling of immigrants;
4. building capacity for frontline officers, other law enforcement officers and the Judiciary on human trafficking;
5. enhanced intelligence gathering and sharing among security wings;
6. enhanced international collaboration with neighbouring countries, including countries of origin for the victims;
7. creation of a toll-free line to specifically address matters of human trafficking and smuggling of migrants;
8. sensitisation of communities and schools on human trafficking issues; and
9. incorporation of human trafficking issues in the Zambia Police Service training curriculum and other security agencies.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the comprehensive and detailed statement on both matters raised by my colleague, Hon. Chibuye, and myself.

Madam Speaker, twenty-eight dead bodies were found along Chaminuka Road according to the statement the hon. Minister has issued, and people in communities dotted around the country are living in fear. What message can the hon. Minister give the people, especially that they are living in fear because of so many incidents? It is not only the incident of the twenty-eight bodies that were found along Chaminuka Road, but there are other incidents that happened in the country, which have caused the people to live in fear.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, in responding to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha, I assure members of the public that they should not be apprehensive and be living in fear. We have put up concrete measures to ensure that human trafficking is curbed in the country. As you may have noticed from the media reports that we have issued, we have intensified activities relating to human trafficking. Two days ago, we intercepted a minibus that was coming from the Copperbelt with a number of immigrants fromthe Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) who were being trafficked to South Africa. Yesterday, once again, we intercepted another lorry where there were immigrants and we have arrested the one who was driving the vehicle.

Madam, let me also state that as a result of the incidents that have happened, we have engaged the countries of origin of the immigrants who are being trafficked. We have had meetings with them and we are trying to ensure that the traffickers are intercepted from their countries of origin. Mostly, it is in the Horn of Africa and the DRC. We have engaged and are ensuring that measures are put in place.

Madam Speaker, I assure members of the public that they should not be apprehensive of these matters and I appeal that if they hear or see any activities that appear to be inimical to the interest of the country, they should report to the police.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka(Luena): Madam Speaker, it is good to hear that in the last two days, two interceptions of human trafficking were occasioned.It shows that the system can actually work to prevent this vice. My question, therefore, is:Can the nation expect to see some heads rolling in the case of the twenty-seven bodies that were found in Lusaka for the failures that occurred in the system, whichever border they may have come through?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, human trafficking is a sophisticated business. It is not easy to trace how they come in. Let me state that the human beings being trafficked do not pass through the established border points. They use routes that are not being regulated. It is only when they use regulated routes that we are able to identify them. You may have noticed that this issue of the twenty-seven bodies that were discovered, it is not the first time that dead bodies have been discovered in this country. Two or three months ago, there was another incident in Nakonde where dead bodies were buried in the bush. It just shows you that they are using routes that are not established. You may also note that once they use these unestablished routes, there are other traffickers who take up the responsibility of trafficking once they are in the country. It isa syndicate that we need to break. The syndicate is not only in Zambia, but international, hence the need for all of us to work with other international agencies to ensure that human trafficking is curbed.

Madam Speaker, there will be no heads rolling because there was no fault of any of our officers pertaining to the issues that transpired. As I did indicate, we have identified and arrested the person who drove the tipper truck to dump the bodies. We hope that as we investigate, we will get to the root cause of the matter. As I earlier also indicated, there is one survivor amongst those who were involved in the incident in Chaminuka. Once he recovers, we will investigate, interrogate and establish how he found himself in Zambia. I cannot go further than that.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I acknowledge the ministerial statement from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. Let me start by joining him in conveying our sincere condolences to the bereaved family of the officer who lost his life whilst on duty. The attacks on our law enforcement officers are unacceptable. We encourage thehon. Minister to do everything possible to ensure that our officers use whatever is available at their disposal to defend their lives whilst they are on duty.

Madam Speaker, I am saying this because theministerial statement had two very important issues and we are constrained to have follow up questions on both matters as the rules dictate.The issue of human trafficking is one of the most challenging transnational crimes. The route that seems to be making this country a transit route is from the eastern region of the southern African region. Progress was made to try and establish a Joint Permanent Commission (JPC) between the Republic of Zambia and the Republic of Tanzania in order to enhance the security of both countries. This, in my view, is one such measure that will help the hon. Minister to curb this modern-day slavery which is now ending in deaths and this has attracted a lot of international media coverage. How far has the Government gone in establishing the JPC with the Republic of Tanzania that will be much more of a lasting solution in order to address these emerging transnational crimes?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, let me also appreciate the sentiments that have been expressed by my colleague the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu and confirm that we have engaged with the Government of the Republic of Tanzania pertaining to the establishment of the Joint Permanent Commission (JPC). Last week, we had a chat together with the hon. Minister of Defence to ensure that we quickly re-establish the channels of communication betweenthe Government of Tanzania and ourselves. We have agreed that before the end of January, most likely, we will have a JPC meeting with theGovernment of Republic of Tanzania.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, when I was growing up, there used to a programme that was called ‘Police and You’, which –

Hon. Member: You are still growing up.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Yes, I am still growing up.

Hon. Minister, the programme seemed to have been bridging the gap between the police and the general public and was building that relationship. There has been a brewing animosity between the general public and the police, largely because of the conduct of the police towards the members of the public. Just what is the ministry doing to enhance or build the fallen relationship between the police and the members of the public to avoid what is happening. From reports, thepolice that were attacked in Katete seem to have crossed boundaries as to where their Nyaus were. So, these things could be avoided if only this relationship is not to widen, as the case is. What is the ministry doing in rebuilding the relationship between the police and the general public?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want to dispel the assertion that has been made by my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana.

Madam Speaker, the incident the hon. Member referred to in Katete has nothing to do with the issues patterning to nyau dancing. The issue in Katete is one that evolves in uncivilised beliefs in witchcraft. They were alleging that a person or an individual in that particular village died because of witchcraft. They further said that the individuals who were released by the police and accused of having killed that individual were practicing witchcraft. When the police went to investigate the matter, after destruction of property in Katete, that is how residents of that village descended on them. It had nothing to do with nyaus. Once again, I want to commend the professionalism of the Zambia Police Force or Service currently. If the police in Kawaza village were not being professional, they would have been a massive slaughter of human beings there. The officers had to restrain themselves despite the fact that they were armed and they had the right to defend themselves. They restrained themselves. It has nothing to do with the nyau. A nyau cannot withstand an Avtomat Kalashnikova 1947 weapon (AK 47) if the police had decided to exercise their right to defend themselves.

Madam Speaker, I also want to confirm that the relationships between the Zambia Police and members of the public has substantially improved. Members of the public now have confidence in the Zambia Police. When there are issues, member of the public are able to go to the police station and report matters. Unfortunately, because of the freedom which members of the public are enjoying under the New Dawn Administration, the freedom is being abused by some members of the public to the extent that they think they have the right to abuse the police. I want to warn, once again, that the freedom which members of the public are enjoying currently does not include the right to abuse the police. The police have rights under the laws of this country to enforce law and order. They also have the right to defend themselves. Members of the public should not dare the police. We do not want anarchy to prevail in this country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you for recognising me to ask a follow-up question on a point of clarification to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, the incident in Katete and the one that has been reported, which led to the complaint by the hon. Member for Roan on the Copperbelt, has been seen to be a weakness on the police in terms of them being ill equipped. Those are the inferences that I am getting from the people I represent. I would like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to dispel those innuendos, if he may like to use that word or those assertions, that the police right now is ill-equipped. If anything had to happen, for instance, a situation of unrest, the police do not have the kind of necessities to do defend themselves and quell such kind of unrest. Could the hon. Minister indicate how equipped the police is, going by those assertions.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to dispel those assertions and innuendos. The police service is adequately equipped. What has changed and transpired is that, the police officers are currently acting professionally. Using force is a last resort in all incidences they interact with members of the public. If they were not being professional, they were going to maiming members of the public. They have the equipment and they have the arms, but because they know that they are there to serve members of the public, they have opted not use force against members of the public. So, the assertion is not correct. The Zambia Police Service has all the equipment; riot dispelling equipment and all other activities that are inimical can be dealt with by members of the Zambia Police Service. So, I assure members of the public that they are in safe hands. You may recall that last week, we had an exercise in Chibolya, which exercise was done professionally. We recovered a lot of items that had been stolen from members of the public. We recovered arms from Chibolya and other accessories of crime. There were no incidences that affected the Zambia Police Service. It just shows that it has the capacity and it is now able to ensure that there is law and order in the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will add five more minutes.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan) Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the detailed response on the two matters. Part of my question has been asked by the hon. Member for Zambezi East. However, I still have a rider to the question. In his statement, the hon. Minister clearly stated that the assailant who attacked the two brave officers in Mpongwe used two weapons; a plunk and a concrete block. It was clear that this man meant business when he attacked the first officer. My concern is whilst the officer was being attacked, the other officer was watching. This brings me to the same question that our hon. Member for Zambezi East asked. If, indeed, the officers went this scene well-equipped, why did the other officer not resort to what you stated in your ministerial statement as the rights to defend themselves by maiming this assailant at the expense of his life? Honestly, Madam Speaker, if you look at the pictures of the two officers, you will see that they were butchered and hammered to death

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, whereas police officers have the right to use a firearm to defend themselves, I will not encourage that. That should be an act of last resort. If the officers in the incident that the hon. Member is referring to had opted to use firearms, they would have gone ahead to shoot the assailants, but we are discouraging that. I encourage the police to continue with this trajectory of being professional. They should only use firearms as a last resort. As a result of what happened at that incident, they had to call for reinforcement and they managed to arrest the assailants. I would still not encourage the use of firearms against civilians.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, listening to the hon. Minister’s answers, I feel that professionalism must not be performed at the expense of police officers. Apart from police officers carrying firearms, are they allowed carrying other necessary tools in order to protect their lives?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, they also have other tools to defend themselves.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, what measures are being put in place to protect the officers whose lives are in danger from some unruly members of the public who want to take the law into their hands?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, may I be given this opportunity to even respond to the other part of the question, which was raised by my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana, pertaining to a programme that used to air sometimes back called ‘Police and You.’

Madam Speaker, having taken into account the unfortunate incidences pertaining to harassment of police officers, we are going to introduce certain programmes on both radio and other media to ensure that members of the public are educated and made to understand that the police are there for them. They are not their antagonists in issues of securing their safety.

Madam Speaker, I also want to state that we are putting in place measures to ensure that whenever officers are given an assignment, they are given the correct tools to defend themselves. However, as I indicated earlier, I will not encourage the police to use firearms against members of the public. They should find other ways and means to protect themselves. A firearm should be used a last resort.

Madam Speaker: The last question will come from the hon. Member for Mufulira.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I join others in sympathising with the police officers that have fallen victim to community brutality.

Madam Speaker, as a build up to the response the hon. Minister has given, at the time police officers are recruited, there is a vigorous physical fitness and health check-up to ensure that they endure the training, and continue to execute their work after training.

Madam Speaker, with due respect to police officers who have kept themselves in shape after training and while in service, clearly, there are some officers who have wasted their bodies to either alcoholism or ailment. So, when it comes to defending themselves, it is a big challenge; they cannot even lift a punch, but are in uniform, and carrying a firearm.

Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister has answered in his last response, what programme is there for continuous training and assessment to ensure that police officers do not just rely on firearms, but also on their physical fitness to defend themselves?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the statement and question that has been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufulira.

Madam, I do accept that there have been some lapses on the part of the Police Command pertaining to disciplining and retraining of officers. Therefore, we have started a programme to retrain officers in modern police detection techniques and ensure they are physically fit. Soon, you will see that some officers who were trained some time back will be taken back to training school to ensure that they are retrained in order for them to give an effective service to members of the public.

Madam, I also want to state that there are some other requirements that were in the Police Service Recruitment Manual on the physique and stature of police officers. In the past, we used to have a certain height and physique for one to be in the police service, ...

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... but that –

Laughter

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want to confirm that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga has the right height to join the Zambia Police Service.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, in the past, we used to have a certain height and physique for one to be in the Police Service. However, because of certain constitutional provisions, we had to discard that. We have concentrated on ensuring that police officers are trained physically to defend themselves. So, we will ensure that that is done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, we have to make progress. The hon. Member for Mwinilunga does not qualify anymore to be engaged as a police officer.

Laughter

SALE OF THE GULFSTREAM G50ER PRESIDENTIAL JET

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, thank you very much–

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us listen to the ministerial statement.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to present my ministerial statement this morning to this august House.

Madam Speaker, before I present my ministerial statement, please, allow me to commiserate, empathise and offer condolences to the Government and peoples of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) on the unfortunate loss of 130 persons due to floods. Indeed, the ugly head of climate change continues to rear its ugly head and is devastating many countries and human kind.

Madam Speaker, let me now get back to the purpose of my being in front.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to give a ministerial statement on the decision by the Government to sell the Gulfstream G650 Extended Range Presidential Jet.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma:Madam Speaker, Hon. Mundubile, Member of Parliament for Mporokoso, raised a question last Friday –unfortunately, I do not see him here, but I guess the information will reach him. He raised a question on Friday, 2^nd December, 2022, quoting Article 210 (2) and (3) of the Republican Constitution that provides for the disposal of State assets subject to approval by Parliament. He stated that the law is very clear in providing that the disposal of major State assets be subject to approval by Parliament.

He went on to say that the transaction had clearly not been presented on the Floor of this House and asked why the Government was proceeding with the transaction, thereby acting outside the law instead of bringing the same for approval by Parliament. Essentially, he was saying the process to dispose of the Gulfstream or any major Government asset has to be authorised by Parliament and go through the legal processes, and why was that not followed. I must say, in the first instance, that we have not moved in order for us to start following the laid down regulations and rules that pertain to the sale and disposal of a national asset.

Madam Speaker, allow me to give a brief background to the decision by the Government to sell the Gulfstream G650ER aircraft. I wish to mention that during the period that the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) has operated this asset, the maintenance, operational training and other associated costs have been astronomical and proven to be a strain on the Government Treasury.

Madam Speaker, US$6,317,043.58 was spent on its annual maintenance and service costs for a short period of only three years even when the aircraft was underutilised by the Presidency for flights within and outside Zambia. These are astronomical costs even when it was lying idle.

Madam Speaker, the following is the breakdown of the annual servicing and maintenance costs of this aircraft incurred from 2019 to 2021. In 2019, maintenance costs amounted to US$835,631.28. In terms of annual servicing costs in 2029, it cost the Government US$332, –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, hon. Minister, 2029?

Mr Lufuma: Madam,2019, I am sorry. In terms of annual servicing costs, it cost the Government US$332,153.42, giving a total in that year of approximately US$1.2 million. In 2020, maintenance costs amounted to US$1.8 million while the annual servicing costs amounted to US$1 million, giving us a total of US$2.8 million. In 2021, the maintenance costs stood at US$1.8 million while the annual servicing costs stood at US$500,000, giving us a total of US$2.3 million. The grand total of the maintenance costs for the three years came to US$4.4 million and the annual servicing costs came to US$1.9 million. This gives us a grand total in the three years of US$6.3 million.

Madam Speaker, as you can see, the average annual management, maintenance and communication cost of the presidential jet is US$2.1 million per year, giving a total average cost of US$42 million for a period of twenty years, at the minimum. This computation considered the fact that the annual management, maintenance and communication costs are dependent on the overall flying activities undertaken in each calendar year by the presidential jet.

Currently, the presidential jet has been predominantly underutilised as it has mostly been parked in the hangar even after undergoing regular maintenance and servicing works at a cost. This, in essence, entails that the total average annual cost is likely to be more than US$2.1 million per year if the presidential jet is utilised more for presidential assignments both regionally and globally. The continued utilisation of this air platform will undoubtedly, in the long run, be unsustainable, and will, eventually, pause a challenge to maintain it effectively and efficiently leading to a loss of its value.

Madam Speaker, therefore, in view of the cost of maintenance of theG650ER aircraft, it is more prudent and reasonable to sell the said aircraft and procure another aircraft with similar or corresponding capacity or capability and more reasonable management, maintenance and communication costs than the current costs fabricated by the previous regime for personal aggrandisement.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the foregoing notwithstanding, the previous regime through the Ministry of Defence purchased the Gulfstream G650ER presidential jet through a third party at US$70 million as opposed to buying an aircraft at a lower reasonable price from the manufacturer, Gulfstream Aerospace of the United States of America (USA), at US$50 million at the time of purchase or the market price of US$60 million then.

Madam Speaker, the breakdown of the total cost of procuring the aircraft is as follows:

1. purchase of the aircraft cost the Government US$70 million;
2. upgrading the J-Music System cost US$50 million;
3. the simulator which is used to train the pilots to handle the said aircraft cost the Government US$60 million; and
4. insurance premium for seven years cost the Government US$14.9 million.

This gives a whooping total cost of US$194.9 million on that jet.

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the overpayment on the basic aircraft and other additional enhancements like the J-Music System, which were illicitly entered into include the contract amount for the aircraft, was US$60 million, while the actual amount we paid was US$70 million.However, the market price at the time of purchase was US$55 million. I am giving these figures so that you can see the discrepancybetween the market price and what the Government paid for. That was an over payment or what we call wastage of US$15 million.

Madam Speaker, the upgrade of J-Music, under the contract, was a contract sum of US$50 million. The actual amount paid was UD$50 million.However, the market price at the time of purchase of the upgrade was only US$ 5 million.

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: As you have rightly observed by the ‘hear,hear’, US$45 million was over and above the actual amount that we paid. If you compare the market price and actual price that we paid, wastage came to US$45 million. On insurance premium, we paid,according to the contract, US$14.9 million. The contract specified that and we pay the exact amount of US$14.9 million. We did not have a comparison in terms of the market price of the same and so there was no difference or wastage that was identified and coined on the paper. Nevertheless, when you come to the totals, the contract amount was US$124.9 million, actual amount paid was US$134,943,634, and wastage came to US$60 million. To put it into context, US$60 million is equivalent to another Gulf Jetstream ER.

Madam Speaker, it is therefore, not in the best interest of Zambians and the New Dawn Government to maintain such an aircraft on Government inventory as it will ultimately provide an alliance of individuals involved in the illicit procurement, a protracted window of continuously siphoning the already paltry Government resources.

Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Defence, is in the process of disposing and replacing the Presidential jet, Gulfstream G650ER, with another air platform that will have a much lower operational and maintenance cost.We have not disposed of it yet but we are in the process. It is in our interest to do that. They earmarked aircraft for replacement will have similar specifications as the G650ER aircraft and with similar technical capacities and capabilities but at a much lower cost. That is the difference.

Madam Speaker, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) has taken keen interest in corruption allegation in the procurement of the Gulfstream (G650ER) Presidential jet by the previous administration which was used to siphon funds. The previous administration bought the Gulfstream at an exorbitant price of US$194.9 million, inclusive of accessories. The US$194.9 million is part of the loan of US$400 million meant for the modernisation of the defence forces, meaning, the Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force and the Zambia National Service.

Madam Speaker, let me inform this august House that the process of the intended disposal of the G650ER aircraft will be consistent with the provisions of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, in particular, Article 210, Section (1) and (2), the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018, in particular, Section 42(1) and all relevant applicable laws, regulations as well as procedures relating the disposal of national assets.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by stating that the ACC will continue investigating into the corrupt acquisition of the G650ER aircraft by the previous administration.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for giving me the opportunity to present my ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker: In view of the interest that I am seeing, I will add 10 minutes because it has taken the hon. Minister some time to deliver the ministerial statement.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the ministerial statement from the hon. Minister of Defence regarding the Gulfstream which is an asset belonging to the Zambia Air Force.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has shared with the august House the features and everything that was done in upgrading the Gulfstream. Just to inform the august House that the property we are talking about is a matter of security of the state and we all know that the premium of looking after Presidents, who are Commanders-in-Chief world over, is not cheap. The features are determined –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: You can say ‘hear, hear’. It is easy to get alarmed –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, if we proceed at this level, we will not be able to take as many questions as possible. Please ask questions on points of clarification.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is very important that matters are put into context so that we are on the same page. The cost of moving the Challenger Jet, which His Excellency has used to go to the United Kingdom (UK), as we know, is even much higher in terms of fuel consumption and stopovers which pose a challenge in terms of security and securing routes. Who –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Members please, I am warning you. It is a time of good will but do not tempt me to send you outside. So, let us listen to the questions and do not interject.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is easy to sectionalise these matters but we have to be serious as a nation.

Madam Speaker, who has the hon. Minister established as having recommended all the features that were put on the plane and who was responsible for procuring the property for the Head of State?

Madam Speaker: Order! No running commentaries please and one question per hon. Member. Please, no running commentaries. This is the last warning.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam, Speaker, from the security institutions, because this is a matter that is public domain, which institution, specifically, from the security wings was responsible for prescribing the features and settling for this jet? These systems are there for the Government to inherit and leave behind.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question on a point clarification.In the first instance, the procurement of this presidential jet was not out of the request of the Zambia Air Force (ZAF). ZAF is supposed to be the client, but it did not ask for it.That is where we find a discrepancy. If it is an asset of ZAF, ZAF as a client institution should have requested it. Unfortunately, that did not happen. The tender process of this aircraft took only, contrary to the standing regulations, 24hours.

Mr Ng’andu: Repeat.

Mr Lufuma: I will repeat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, it took 24 hours tender process to approval the purchase of an asset that cost US$194.9 million. You have to multiple that by K17 to be able to know how much is it in Kwacha. The assessment for what the hon. Member has talked about was not done by any of our institutions. On thecontrary, it was done by the supplier of this asset.That is what makes it funny. This issue is under investigations as you heard me say, but theassessment was not done out of necessity as required or as before, requested by ZAF.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much and thank the hon. Minister of Defence for his statement.

Madam Speaker, as regards the proposed selling if this jet, does the Government anticipate that selling this jet would, in monetary terms, constitute the same cost it was procured at?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I must say, unfortunately, it will definitely not come to the amount that we bought it at. Firstly, it is now second hand –

Interruptions 

Mr Lufuma: Is it still brand new?

Mr Kampyongo: Yes.

Mr Lufuma:That is what you are saying?

Madam Speaker, firstly, it is second hand.So, whoever is buying it, will buy it from the ZambianGovernment, which was the first hand.The second hand is whoever is going to purchase it from us. Obviously, commerce will tell you that it will cost much. It will be bought at much lower price. Secondly, the exaggeration in price will exaggerate the amount at which we are going to obtain it. So, already, you have to take out more than US$60 million wastage, which is really going to disadvantage us. So, I would like to submit that it is going to fetch much less.

Madam Speaker, however, the cost of maintaining the same, if we were to keep it, is astronomical and therefore, we are better off selling it than keeping it on the asset register.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, through your indulgence, I would like to state that this is the matter that is –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:Sorry, before you procced, there is an indication for a point of order. Stop the clock. Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you have already asked the question, do you need to raise a point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, yes.

Madam Speaker, I posed a question to the hon. Minister,which was very clear. He is now telling us that the procurement took 24 hours. If it cannot take a week to procure a motor vehicle from the source, certainly it cannot take 24 hours to procure a plane.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister was: To whom, in the trail of this transaction, isthe decision pointing?

Interuptions 

Mr Kampyongo: There are state organs – because the hon. Minister has come to this august House, and we want to be clear. He has said that it is not the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, is that another question?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my question is that the hon. Minister has not responded to my question which sought to know which institution he is pinpointing to the have been the source of the funds which were paid if, indeed, he is saying that ZAF is not the one that procured the plane. That was my question and the hon. Minister only said that it was not ZAF. That does not answer my question. So, my question is that we have public institutions which are established. So, I would like the hon. Minister to be categorical in his response.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, this is why we are wondering how the procurement process went.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Lufuma: Yes, and it is under investigations. Those responsible will be nipped.

Hon. PF Members: Who paid?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we listen to the answers.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, who paid is simple and straight forward. It is the Government of the Republic of Zambia which paid.

Madam Speaker: Those who are asking questions while seated, if I do not recognise you, do not blame me. So, let us allow the hon. Minister to answer the question and you will follow up. We have limited time mand so, we can only take so many questions. May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I clearly stated that the Government of the Republic of Zambia paid the amounts in question. I also clearly stated that the amount came from a loan that was procured under Israel Discount Bank. I clearly stated that. So, that is where the money came from.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying this is a serious matter, looking at the amount of money involved. As a poor nation, we do not want to lose such an amount of money, as the hon. Minister he has indicated, although in terms of resources, we are not poor. My point of clarification is: Why are is the Government in hurry to sell this state asset which the hon. Minister has indicated –

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu:Let me finish asking the question.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, please, do not answer on behalf of the hon. Minister. Maybe, the hon. Member for Chama South came a bit late. I saw him come into the House. Maybe, he did not get the answer. So, let him ask.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I was following the proceedings. When coming, we usually follow Parliamentary proceedings. They are live on Parliament TV and Radio.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, why are these hon. Members behaving like this?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, please, can we take this matter seriously and listen to the questions and answers so that we do not repeat the same questions.

Hon. Member for Chama South,you may proceed

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, here is my concern:Why are we in a hurry to sell this jet? I know that the reason we are giving is that the cost of running this jet is very high. Looking at the amounts involved, which are under investigations, what if the Government sells at a lower price which he indicated it is likely to do?We on the left and the people of Chama South would not want to see that happen. If it does, hon. Minister is also likely to be in problems later because …

Madam Speaker: Order!

What is your point of clarification? Ask the point of clarification.

Mr Mung’andu:Madam, before I come to that, we will become suspicious that you have friends who want to buy this jet …

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

You are taking too long.

Mr Mung’andu: If you sell at a lower price, it is better …

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of the people. If he sells at a lower price, we will come and hold him accountable. It might be twenty years from now, because we do not want to lose any money. What measures is the hon. Minister putting in place to ensure that the purported overpriced money is recovered, if there was such a thing, before he even sells the jet?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, on recoveringmoney before the purported sale, I wish to state that I have clearly indicated that the issue is under investigations. You cannot recover that money without investigations. It is under investigations and, as soon as those investigations are concluded, we shall know clearly who is responsible and who should, then, pay the taxpayers back the money that they deserve.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that detailed statement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the cost of maintaining this jet is colossal.He has also said that the Government is still investigating the matter. Now, the longer we take investigating this matter means that we pay more for maintaining this Presidential Jet. May I know how long these investigations will take so as to save the colossal amounts of money that he indicated are spent to maintain the jet?

Mr Mukosaholding the mobile phone

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, are you taking a picture or what is that? Are you taking a photograph on your phone? The way you are even displaying your phone – Phones are not supposed to be used to that extent. Please, do it in a discrete manner. People are watching that you are on your phone instead of following proceedings. That is just a motherly advice to an hon.Member.

Mr Mukosaindicated assent.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Dundumwezi for that question or point of clarification.

Madam Speaker, it is very difficult to say when matters under investigation could be concluded. However, it is our prayer, given the astronomical costs that are associated with the maintenance and running of this aircraft, that it will be done as quickly as possible. Instructions from us are that investigators should put in all necessary efforts to ensure that this matter is concluded at the shortest possible time, notwithstanding the fact that they have to do a thorough investigation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, before elections, there was already a sentiment from the current President that when voted into power, he would sell this jet and the money would be given to university students in form of meal allowances.

Will the hon. Minister come back to this House and let it know who will win this tender? We would like to know. This is Government property.This money that will be realised from the sale of a national asset at a lower cost, how is it going to be used? Will it be used as promised by the President?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chienge for that –

Madam, I like the way she pronounces Chienge. She says ‘Shienge’ like an American.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chienge for that point of clarification.

Madam, we would like to be as transparent in the sale of this national asset as possible. I guess I was quite clear in the manner I said we shall dispose off this jet. We shall follow all rules and regulations pertaining to the disposal of a national asset.

Secondly, it was as if our President knew that there would be complications with the disposal of this asset whose proceeds would be needed to be given to students for meal allowances.So, we acted more efficiently than that. Even before the sale of the Gulfstream Jet, we gave students meal allowances. That is how efficient and forth looking a visionary this Government is.

So, we have already taken care of that, but the hon Member may be assured that the process of the sale will be transparent and as clear as water.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:F romIndependent hon. Members, I will call on the hon. Member for Nkana.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker, this is what I have established ...

Mr Mubangainterjected.

Mr B. Mpundu:BaMubangamulepangaichongo.

Madam Speaker, this is what I have established from the statement the hon Minister has given: Firstly, if I got the hon. Minister correctly, we are going to lose roughly around US$60 million if we sold off that jet. If we lose US$60 million in selling off that jet and then, the annual cost of servicing that jet is around US$2 million per annum. If we buy another jet, we will have to service it and incur costs annually in addition to servicing the Challenger today. The two costs may come close to what we may be incurring on the current jet we want to sell.

Now, the enhanced features of this jet we are talking about now is perfect for the Head of State. I do not want to into the semantics of how much should have been spent as compared to how much was spent. I know that law enforcement agencies are doing their job. Let them do their job.

Now, would it not be the most prudent thing that we have jet that has seriously enhanced features that would enable the President to fly safely? Why would we, as a country, want to lose so much money that cannot even come close to how much we are going to be spending in annual services of this jet that would be perfect for the Head of State? Why would we want to make such a decision?

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question seeking clarification. Essentially, he is asking why we are selling the asset when we are going to sell it at a loss. Yes, it is going to be sold at a loss, just like any second-hand asset. When you get an asset and you want to sell it as second hand, if it cost you US$10 million, you will not sell it at the same rate especially if it is moving asset such as a car, aircraft and so on and so forth. So, obviously, the price will be lower than the original price. However, despite it being low, the difference is exaggerated. The difference in price has been exaggerated because of overpricing. When you take the market price into consideration, the difference will be much lower. In the short term, yes, we will sell it at a lower price, but in the long term, given the astronomical maintenance, administration and operational costs, calculations show that we will be at an advantage if we got rid of the aeroplane.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Bweengwa.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement and I have seen the amount which was stolen or overpriced amounting to US$60 million. Putting it into Kwacha, it is K1.1 billion. If you were to buy vehicles, you would have bought 1,080 Toyota Landcruiser pick-ups. Anyway, we can leave that discussion for another day.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has assured this country that the jet Gulfstream will be sold, but will it be sold before the investigations have been concluded or it will be done after the full investigations have been concluded?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question seeking clarification. We are not sure when the investigations will be concluded, and we cannot be sure. Investigations could take a year, two years or more. However, we are very sure of the astronomical costs that we incur year by year, and we would like to put a stop to this because we are bleeding this country. The Treasury is bleeding. We have a mountain of debt that we have to service. To put the amount into context, US$194.9 million is equivalent to K4.25 billion, and that is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for the whole country which can benefit everybody in one year. Therefore, we think it is prudent and justifiable to sell this asset and we will save costs by selling it as soon as possible. We encourage, of course, the investigation wings to hasten or quicken the process of investigations because the amount of money which was wasted is unacceptable. So, we shall sell the jet as soon as we can, following the processes that are laid down.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order on the hon. Minister because he did not answer my question. My question was very simple. I wanted to know if the proceedings of selling the jet will specifically be given to university students.

Hon. Government Members: Proceeds.

Rev. Katuta: I mean the proceeds. Thank you for the correction from the degree and PhD holders. That is what I wanted to know, but he did not give me an answer.

Madam Speaker: I was following what the hon. Minister was saying. He said that the issue of the meal allowances has already been attended to. That is what I heard him say. So, I do not know what more can be said.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENT OF MR GILBERT ANDFORD PHIRI TO SERVE AS DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS, MR PATRICK KALUBAKANGWA TO SERVE AS SECRETARY TO THE CABINET AND MR TOM TREVOR SHAMAKAMBA TO SERVE AS DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION, AND MRS FRANCES MWANGALAZALOUMIS, MR ALI DERRICK NJAVWASIMWINGA AND MR MCDONALD GOVERNOR CHIPENZI TO SERVE AS CHAIRPERSON, VICE-CHAIRPERSON AND COMMISSIONER OF THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION OF ZAMBIA

 

Mr Chabinga (Mafinga): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and compliments of the season to you and to all hon. Members of this august House.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri to serve as Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa to serve as Secretary to the Cabinet, Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba to serve as Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), and Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis, Mr Ali Derrick NjavwaSimwinga and Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi to serve as Chairperson, Vice-Chairperson and Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), respectively, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 14^thDecember, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

MrsChonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, the Committee notes that all the appointments were made in accordance with the relevant laws.

Madam Speaker, the DPP, the Secretary to the Cabinet, the ACC and the ECZ play a vital role in the administration and dispensation of justice, implementation of Government policies and programmes, promotion of good governance, upholding the rule of law and democracy. The Committee received submissions from various witnesses to ensure that only suitably qualified individuals with high levels of integrity, ethics, professionalism and experience were appointed to the positions.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes, with satisfaction, that all the state security agencies indicated that there were no adverse security reports against any ofthe nominees. Additionally, the other stakeholders generally submitted that the nominees were suitably qualified andpossessed the requisite competences and experience to be appointed to their various positions. However, the Committee also notes that a stakeholder raised a concern on the appointment of Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba, to serve as Director General of the Anti-Corruption Commission because he was once the subject of a complaint for which he was suspended by the Legal Practitioners Committee of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ). The Committee observes that the nominee is a seasoned legal practitioner. It further observes that the complaint against the nominee was made over ten years ago and that LAZ failed to prosecute the matter. As a result, the disciplinary committee directed LAZ to lift the suspension of the nominee. Your Committee is, therefore, satisfied that there was insufficient evidence to find thenominee guilty of misconduct and therefore, supports his appointment.

Madam Speaker, after its interaction with the nominees, the Committee notes, with satisfaction, that the appointments were made on merit and is confident that the nominees will discharge their duties professionally and impartially.

Madam Speaker, the Committee observes the constitutional requirement in Article259 of the Constitution, relating to gender balance, the youths and the inclusion of persons with disabilities in appointments has not been adhered to. The Committee therefore, urges the appointing authority to take this into consideration when making appointments in future.

Madam Speaker, the Committee, after due and thorough consideration, analysis and evaluation of the written and oral submissions presented to it by the witnesses and the interviews with the nominees, is of the view that all the nominees are suitably qualified and possess the requisite competences to serve in the positionsto which they have been appointed. In view of this, the Committee recommends that this august House ratifies the appointment.

Finally, Madam Speaker, the Members of the Committee place on record their gratitude to you, Madam Speaker, for appointing them to serve on the Select Committee. The Committee is also thankful for theservices and advice rendered to it by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations. The Committee further thanks the state security and investigative agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholder institutions for their oral and written submissions which assisted the Committee in making an informed recommendation to the House.

Madam Speaker, it is now my pleasure to call upon the House to ratify the appointments before it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mrs Chonya: Madam Speaker, now.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to second the Motion. I also thank the mover who competently moved the Motion. The mover has adequately highlighted most of the notable points upon which our Committee supports the ratification of the nominees.

Madam Speaker, in secondingthe Motion, I reiterate your Committee’s observation that all the nominees possess the requisite competences and experience to serve in theirrespective appointments.

Madam Speaker, the Committee, therefore, commends the appointing authority for ensuring that only persons who met the legal requirements were appointed to serve in their respective positions. The Committee particularly noted the appointment of Mrs MwangalaZaloumis and hoped that the appointment of women in key governance positions will be sustained in order to improve Zambia’s standing with regard to gender balancing.

Madam Speaker, the Committee however observed that the appointing authority made the appointments a few weeks before the House adjourns sine die which consequently meant that the Committee did not have adequate time to interact with all the stakeholders that would have loved to appear before it. Nonetheless, we are confident that the key stakeholders, who managed to submit before theCommittee, gave adequate information upon which we gave the recommendations and support for the nominees.

Madam Speaker, I must state, however, that the Committee was of the view that in future,more time should be allocated for Select Committees toenable them to conduct thorough work when similar tasks are given.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by extending my gratitude to the Chairperson of the Committee for the adept, impartial and just manner in which he presided over the meetings and deliberations of your Committee. In fact, I am happy to report that the Committee really operated in one good accord and we are all happy with the outcome. May I also extend my sincere gratitude to allthehon. Members for their objectivity, professionalism and unity of purpose with which we deliberated.

With these few remarks, I beg to second the Motion.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: In view of time limitation, I have asked the leaders to give me a list of hon. Members they would like to debate on their behalf. I havereceived a list from the Government Chief Whip and the Opposition Whip. The Independents have not yet submitted their list. Of course, I will not be able to call upon everyone, so please bear with me because we have a time limitation.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity given to me to make a few comments on the Motion ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue.

Madam Speaker, I will start my discourse by commenting on the remarks made by the seconder of the Motion who talked about time constraints.

Madam Speaker, this undertaking must be given enough time. In addition to that, I have always said, and I will say again, that we need to separate these nominees when they come for scrutiny because they represent different constitutional offices. So, in the event that we have a challenge as a House on one nominee, it becomes difficult to separate that particular nominee from the others because they have been grouped. So, in future, for the sake of the smooth running of Parliament and for us to be effective in scrutinising appointed nominees by the President, let them be separated. I think we should deal with this issue as we review the Standing Orders.

Madam Speaker, as regards the appointment of Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa to serve as Secretary to the Cabinet, I want to commend the Government for heeding our call. When Her Honour the Vice-President presented her policy statement on the Vote for Cabinet Office, we made a clarion call that the absence of a substantive Secretary to the Cabinet was posing a challenge in the running of Government. Cabinet is the engine of Government which cannot be left without a leader for a long time. The lapses that you see in Government, by government systems, is, by and large, attributed to this very important office. So, we commend the Government for heeding that clarion call to fill this gap. I think the nominee is eminently qualified to hold that office. What we just urge him to do is ensure professionalism in the Civil Service. He should also ensure that career civil servants are protected from political persecution. We have seen a number of qualified civil servants being bucked for no apparent reason.

Madam Speaker, I move on to the nominee to occupy the Office of the Director Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Gilbert Phiri.

Madam Speaker, this nominee was here, just less than a year ago, for ratification as Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). I did mention at the time that these institutions are not short of human resource. The DPP’s Office or Chambers have had men and women who have invested their careers and dedicated their time as advocates and prosecutors. Why are we demoralising them by not recognising them by allowing them get to the apex? The past occupant of this office was a product from that institution. There is, seemingly, a shortfall of human resource because to move a person who was ratified as ACC Director not too long ago and take him to that very important office does not give a methodical sign of doing things.

Madam Speaker, furthermore, there are observations that came from the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) regarding this nominee. The observations were that the nominee was still managing partner of a law firm called P and P and Partners. If the nominee has occupied the Office of Director-General at the ACC for this long without relinquishing this position, it calls for an interrogation. This is a very serious matter. It does not just interfere with the running of the public office, but also gives undue advantage to this particular law firm. We had a challenge with one of the occupants of the ACC office regarding this matter. So, this matter should not have been glossed over by your Committee when it was making its recommendation. Therefore, we are very reluctant to support this nominee due to the reasons that I have given.

Madam Speaker, let me now talk about the nomination of Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba to serve as Director-General of the ACC. Again, according to your Committee’s report, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) has not supported the appointment of this nominee. It has cited some professional misconduct on the part of this particular nominee.

Ms Sefulo: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Read the report. I am referring to the report. The report and the submissions by LAZ do not support this particular nominee. This is a very critical office that requires people with impeccable track records, who do not cast doubt. So, we are equally reluctant to support this nominee for this particular reason. If the association to which this nominee belongs has misgivings about him, it becomes difficult for us to ratify such a nominee without expressing the same concerns. Further, your Committee has said he was also sworn in as Human Rights Commissioner. Is it lack of human resource that we have to go for the same individuals? Again, the Secretary to the Cabinet has a role to play in advising the appointing authority to come up with nominees with experience in public institutions without questionable issues.

Madam Speaker, I do not have much to say about two of the nominees who are going to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) except for one colleague, Mr Macdonald Governor Chipenzi. This is a colleague who could have been sitting where Hon. Douglas Syakalima sits if he was not defeated in the primary elections. So, he is a participant. You cannot get a player and make him a referee in a game.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we expect that this nominee will be ratified by the majority of hon. Members. However, let him conduct himself as a referee where he is going. That institution is very critical and we are not going to let him do what is not expected of him.

Madam Speaker, lastly, this institution must not act like a doctor who heals others and forgets about himself or herself. While we are ratifying appointments of other constitution office bearers, we need your office to be supported too. There is a gap here, where we need a principal officer to be appointed. You have enough human resource to choose from. This is an institution which requires that all the procedures are followed. We want you to be assisted by making sure that you have an appointment to that Principle Office of the Clerk which is vacant. So, the appointing authority through the acting Government representative should, please, take this up.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this Motion. I thank the mover of this Motion and the seconder, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue.

Madam Speaker, I want to put this on record. When Jesus was appointing his twelve disciples, he picked people who supported him.So, even I, in future, when I become president of the Republic of Zambia, will pick people who believe in my political career to be hon. Ministers and leaders in other departments. So, I am giving them hope now, especially that they are pushing me to become President in future so that I come and appoint them.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Indeed, it will come to pass. I will appoint them in future.

Madam Speaker, I support the appointing authority –

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: No! Wait guys.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us allow the hon. Member for Petauke Central to debate without interruptions. I have noticed that when there are interjections, he tends to lose his line of thought. So, let us allow him to debate and we listen quietly by maintaining order.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr J. E. Bada: Madam Speaker, we are not supposed to politicise these appointments. Let us support them. Each and every person believes in those people and sees the qualifications. Yes, today, I could be a cadre, but if I have the qualifications to serve, I should be allowed to serve. I was called a cadre because I supported the person who has appointed me. So, there is no problem with that.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Let us call a spade a spade. That is why I said that when I become President of Zambia, I will appoint my people such as Hon. B. Mpundu. He will be my right-hand man.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr J. E. Banda: So, what we are expecting from those appointed, such as the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), is professionalism. The DPP should now know that he is not just serving the interests of the appointing authority, but that of the people of Zambia. He now should cease being partisan.

Mr B. Mpundu:Na upya!

Mr J. E. Banda: Once he is appointed, he is a civil servant. He should now follow the guidelines and conditions of a civil servant.

Madam Speaker, as a representative of the youth, and in whom they see a leader, I have a few words to the appointing authority. During campaigns, he promised jobs to the youth. These are same jobs he promised. So, when appointing, he should balance the appointments. I expected this list we are looking at today to have a graduate immediately out of the University of Zambia (UNZA) not required to have three years or five years experience.

Madam Speaker, where is the appointing authority putting us the youth? We are supposed to see someone directly out of the Copperbelt University (CBU) being appointed to such positions. If that will be the case, we will be supporting fully because as youths, we are left behind.

Madam Speaker, as for people living with disabilities, it is a pity today when you go to some offices. They have no access ways for people living with disabilities. Even this Parliament, if we had no electricity today or our lift was not working, what would the people living with disabilities use to come and see what we are doing in this House?

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Uliwa mano iwe.

Mr J. E. Banda: It would be impossible for them. We are not considering people living with disabilities. I do not know why. In Bemba, there is an adage which goes, ichikalipachuumfwaumwine. Maybe, had there been a person living with disability closer to the powers that be, we would have seen a name of a person living with disability on the list we are debating. Maybe we would have seen people living with disabilities, like someone with a walking stick or in a wheelchair, coming for parliamentary duties.

Mr Speaker, I am appealing to the appointing authority to ensure that the next list which will come for scrutiny is balanced. A certain percentage should be for people living with disabilities, another for women and the youth, and 10 per cent for the old folk, just for mentorship, wisdom and experience.

Interruptions

Hon. Member: And decoration!

Mr J. E. Banda: Yah, and for decoration!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: They would be sleeping if we put many of them.

Madam Speaker, on the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), I am sure the appointing authority has intelligence on the ground. In short, he has many eyes. So, he has seen that this person qualifies. However, I am asking that the appointed person not be partisan when carrying out national duties. He should now be a civil servant.

Madam Speaker, as regards the appointment of the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), our grandmother,…

Laughter

Mr J.E. Banda:… should take experience and mentorship to the ECZ. We are not expecting her to stay for long at the ECZ. I am sure she has been brought in to mentor the youth and to encourage other women to take up such jobs. We know that her experience will benefit many Zambians. We cannot let it go just like that. We need it.

Madam Speaker, on the other person who was an aspiring candidate in Chirundu, –

Laughter

The hon. Member’stime expired.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. On behalf of the people of Luena, I am grateful and humbled for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the report on the Motion that has been proposed by the hon. Member for Mafinga and seconded by the hon. Member for Kafue.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we listen to the debater.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I also thank my hon. Friend, the future President of Petauke.

Madam Speaker, the report on the Floor is dealing with very serious issues. So, on behalf the people of Luena, I will briefly speak to each of the nominees and the issues that have been raised in the report.

Madam Speaker, let me start with Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri who is moving from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to become the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). I also note that the position he is leaving at the ACC is the one that is being proposed to be occupied by Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba. So, I will combine these two because they are two sides of the same coin as far as justice and the fight against corruption are concerned.

Madam Speaker, Mr Phiri is somebody we spoke about not too long ago in this House. Therefore, I see little or no controversy. However, I am gratified by the fact that in his own submission to your Committee, he spoke about the need to overhaul the operations of the DPP’s Office.

Madam Speaker, one controversial issue that concerned the people of Zambia on the operations of the DPP’s Office were the wanton nolleprosequis that were seemingly entered into as part of what appeared, from a layman’s eye, as a systematic cartel of cleansing people through the judicial process. The people of Zambia hope that what Mr Phiri has shown during the short period he has been the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) will also be displayed as he becomes the new DPP. Therefore, I support his nomination for that position.

Madam Speaker, coming to Mr Shamakamba, one of the debaters said that there was a disciplinary case against this eminent legal practitioner. Mr Shamakamba has practised law in this country for the past twenty-seven years. A disciplinary case that has been outstanding for ten years cannot be stated in 2022 as the reason for not ratifying his appointment to serve as Director-General of the ACC. He has sufficient professional acumen and societal standing, and he even qualifies to be appointed as Judge of the High Court in this country. Therefore, we look forward to him picking up the mantel from where Mr Phiri has left at the ACC and ensuring that the fight against corruption is heightened.

Madam Speaker, in fighting corruption, there are two types of corruption. There is legal and illegal corruption. Illegal corruption is easy to deal with. Legal corruption, that I want to talk about, is where cartels in institutions, in particular in the public procurement system, make a deal, such as the procurement of the Gulfstream Jet that we were talking about this morning, would seemingly pass through –

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I am referring you to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, the information that we are giving on the Floor of this House should not only be truthful but also factual. Is my – anyway, he is my friend, so, I will not jab him. Is the hon. Member in order to state that there is legal and illegal corruption when corruption is corruption and it is all illegal, before hon. Members like Hon. KoonwaSimunji and the hon. Member for Nkeyema pick that there is also legal corruption? Is he in order to mislead this august House that there is also legal corruption? I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: To the extent that the hon. Member for Luena said there was legal corruption, he was out of order. Corruption is corruption. May he describe it as such.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I am placing emphasis to transactions, especially in the public procurement system, where processes are seemingly followed to the letter but the end game in the transaction is to enrich a few people. The Public Procurement Act needs to be revisited. We expect the new Director-General of the ACC and the new DPP to work closely, and make sure that the loopholes that the Public Procurement Act provides in this looting, as it were, are sealed.

Madam Speaker, Mr Patrick Kangwa is an eminent civil servant; no issues there.

Madam Speaker, let me come to Mrs MwangalaZaloumis, a legal practitioner and electoral expert, who will be the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) at the right time. We are gratified that she has set herself a target of overhauling the electoral system and will ensure that the time for elections in this country is no longer a matter of life and death for the participants and the voters. This is, indeed, a breath of fresh air.

Madam Speaker, Mr Ali Simwinga is returning to the commission. We interacted with the ECZ in the recent past, and Mr Ali Simwinga was one voice of reason at the commission. We are happy to see him coming back to continue the fight against the malpractices that had become the order of the day in the not-so-distant past.

Madam Speaker, let me come to my good friend, Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi. I have just realised that his other name is Governor; no wonder he is interested in good governance issues.

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: His history of being an advocate of good governance in this country speaks for itself. He is somebody who has dedicated his life to ensure there is justice and fairness in everything that we do. He was the Executive Director of the Foundation for Democratic Process (FODEP) and everybody who has followed what FODEP did in this country knows that it was at the centre of the electoral reforms in the not-so-distant past. Therefore, the people of Luena support the appointment of all the nominees contained in this report.

Madam Speaker, I note that there was an issue about the appointment of youths. When I was looking at the brief biographies of the nominees, I noted that Mr McDonald Chipenzi is younger than one hon. Member here when he was a National Youth Chairman of an erstwhile party that was ruling the nation. Therefore, if we had a National Youth Chairperson who was older than an individual who is being appointed to the ECZ, I think the youths can have confidence that even young people are being looked at.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I submit that I support the appointment of the nominees.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: It will be appreciated if hon. Members would yield a few minutes to the next Member because the list is long.

Mr Kalimi(Malole): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according the good people of Malole the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Motion.

Madam Speaker, democracy is anchored at the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and if we destroy the institution by appointing people who are partisan or cadres – by the way, I want to state straightaway that I am a cadre, and as a cadre, I was dancing to the tune of the person who appointed me. All of us hon. Members of Parliament here are cadres. Since we are cadres, we dance to the tune of those who adopted us. We have seen cadres, and we sat with some of them during committee sittings. When a committee rejected a report, they danced to the tune of the appointing authority and accepted the report. We have seen that and that is how cadres behave. I am a cadre and I can do that.

Madam Speaker, I support what the Committee observed on the youths. I congratulate the youths of Zambia for waking up at 0500 hours and voting for President Bally. The youths are being rewarded through the appointment of Madam Zaloumis who is a youth.

Laughter

Mr Kalimi: The youths have been rewarded through the appointment of Mr Panji Kaunda who is in Malawi and is a youth. To me, this is biasness. There are youths who contributed to the winning of the United Party for National Development (UPND) both in Mazabuka and Kaputa.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, as I rise on a point of order I will not specifically indicate the Standing Order but we are all aware that we use Commonwealth jurisprudence in this House. It is part of our procedures and I will anchor my point of order on that.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to be cynical when describing members who are being appointed? Is he in order to suggest that the member we are proposing, the Chairperson, is a youth, in his debate?

Madam Speaker: Of course, when there is a point of order it must indicatethe breach or the practice that has been breached. The hon. Minister has referred to the Commonwealth practice, which is our practice and procedure.  However, just for purposes of guidance, let us describe the nominees as they are. If they are old just say they are old. Let us not be subtle or impute some innuendos on the age of the respective appointees.

Hon. Member of Parliament for Malole, please be factual as you describe the appointees.

Mr Kalimi: Madam Speaker, in short, I thank the youth for waking up and voting for the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government because they are now being considered and rewarded for the position.

Madam Speaker, Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is not a place for cadres. I am urging those who have been appointed. My brother, Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi, who was supposed to be seated where my good hon. Minister is sitting,should refrain from being a cadre. Let him become very professional. I know he is being awarded, maybe, for Kabushi and Kwacha by-elections. Congratulations! Even I can accept to be awarded. Let him go and behave very professionally as he heads that institution. That institution can be destroyed and we can put this country on fair if we continue behaving like cadres. He needs to behave very professionally and let him lower his head. We have had cadres who were appointed in these positions and they did not pretend.Let him go and pretend. There are institutions that are headed by cadres and in some of them, we are seeing problems because of the way cadres are failing to perform or failing to pretend that they are inclined to a political party. We are not going to allow that. Let him go and behave and do the correct thing.

Madam Speaker, regarding people with disabilities,I have observed,just likeyourCommittee observed, that we need to consider people with disabilities in the next appointment.  I am at pain when I see my sister Hon. Mwamba in a plaster and cannot even walk from the lift. I concur with the hon. Member for Petauke Central on what he said on us needing to consider people living with disabilities so that in all the appointments, they are catered for.

Madam Speaker, we should not only consider youths who are above age. We have many people from Mazabuka, Shangombo and Mitete who helped the President to win these elections. Those people are supposed to be awarded. When are these youthful and energetic people, who are not tired, going to be awarded? It is better we take others to nearest country if we are avoiding Malawi, where we sent some orphans. We can send them to Angola other than taking them to institutions that are very credible. I reluctantly support the appointment of the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia. What is my sister going to do there?

Madam Speaker, posterity has judged us because everybody who has been appointed becomes a judge or works in other good institutions. We are not saying she is not a good lawyer but we would have followed that. Are we sure we have run short of human resource? How many people in the UPND did good things? Of course, it is the prerogative of the President to appoint whoever he wants, but honestly let us appreciate people who are going to add value in the institution.

Madam Speaker, I reluctantly support the appointment of both Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis and my good friend Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi, who has totally become a cadre more than Robert Kalimi from Malole. I reluctantly support those appointments.

Madam Speaker, for Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri, I wish him good as Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). He is a qualified lawyer but he should not go with an attitude to say I have a mission to fix Robert Kalimi. No! In that institution, you need to be sober minded. You do not need to be from Masala Market or the president of Masala Market to head that institution. You need to be very sober. I am urging my brother, the DPP, my cousin, to go and behave and become very sober.

Madam, let him go and persecute the people who are serving because, to me, it seems like only the people who served in the former government were stealing.However,even if the people who served in the former government were stealing, they were stealing with people who are on your right side, and we know them. Those who were participating intenders and were coming to us to help them, are on your right side. When they changed the side, they now say it is only the people on your left side who were stealing. Let him go and follow corruption even in the current Government. Let him go and hammer. He should not just so and become part– He is not a stooge for anybody. He is a stooge for the people ofZambia and he should go and do the correct thing when he goes there. I am reluctantly supporting the appointment.

Madam Speaker, Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa has been a very seasoned civil servant. He was the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet and his appointment has been long overdue. I congratulate the President for making that appointment and for that I say, yes, the appointment is ok. I am not going to say no. 

Madam Speaker, over the appointment of Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba, I do not know anything about the man. I have been told that the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) commented that he had an issue but I have no problem. Of course, I know that he is a renowned lawyer who has stood well despite that he had issues with LAZ regarding certificates. We have seen many lawyers who have been suspended.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. You are out of order.

Mr Kalimi:Yangu tata mayo.

Madam Speaker:Hon. Member, your time is up. Sorry I said you were out of order.

Mr Kambita ( Zambezi East): Madam Speaker,  I you very much for the opportunity to comment on the report of your Select Committee which was assigned to scrutinise the presidential appointments of   Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri to serve as Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa to serve as Secretary to the Cabinet and Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba to serve as Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), and Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis, Mr Ali Derrick NjavwaSimwinga and Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi to serve as Chairperson, Vice-Chairperson and Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), respectively.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me structure by debate as follows. I will anchor it on what actually describes the qualifications of who should serve in these offices that we are debating today. For the DPP, Article 180(1) of the Constitution of Zambia Cap. 1 of the Laws Zambia, prescribes the qualifications of who should serve as DPP. So, we should start it from there. The question that arises now is: Does the nominee fit those qualifications as prescribed by that piece of legislation. Yes, I will elaborate a little bit further in my discourse. As for the Secretary to the Cabinet, Article 176(1) also describes who a Secretary to the Cabinet should be and what qualification they should hold. Does Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa hold those qualifications as per the yardstick? Yes ,again, for those serving as members of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) board, Section 9 of the –

Mr Nkombo:Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Mr Kambita: Madam, I mean, the one who is serving as Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission. So, Section 9 of the Anti-Corruption Commission Act No. 3 of 2012, which also brought the ACC itself to be in existence, prescribes this office and what qualifications this person needs to hold. Does he qualify according to that yardstick? Yes, he does. Again,Section 5 (1) of the Electoral Commission of Zambia Act also prescribes who qualifies to serve as a member on the ECZ board.

Madam Speaker, going by that, I will now briefly comment on each one of them. How does Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri suit to be in the position of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP)? Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri is appropriately qualified. He holds the requisite qualifications as outlined in this piece of legislation. He is a well-known legal practitioner. I heard another debater say the nominee has been in private practice, which has enabled him to have some experience. He has a high profile of experience in practicing. He has also prosecuted both civil and crime cases. Recently, he served as Director-General of the ACC, another step in attaining the experience required to become DDP.

Madam Speaker, how about Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa? He has the requisite qualifications. For Secretary to the Cabinet, I think one needs to have over ten years experience in the Civil Service. Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa has been in the Civil Service for more than twenty years. So, he is appropriately experienced. I would like to, actually, commend the President for this particular appointee. This is because he is promoting somebody from being a deputy to heading that institution which will offer us the benefits of institutional memory. That is how sound leadership operates. So, I think critics of any of these appointments would not have seen that and nobody is actually saying no to his appointment because of that fact.

Madam Speaker, let me now come to the appointment of Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba. Of course, I heard Hon. Kampyongo talk about an issue which happened and was before the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ). He who alleges must prove. For ten years, we have seen how matters have been taken to LAZ, usually as a political move to try and fix somebody. However, because there was no evidence in that matter – I am told he appeared before that disciplinary committee thirteen times. The witness could not show up. Why then should we come here and waste our limited time debating an issue where a person appeared before a disciplinary committee thirteen times and people never showed up to give evidence.Where shall we get that evidence in the few minutes we are given to debate? Let Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba become Director-General of the ACC. He qualifies.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, as for Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis, we know how she has contributed immensely in the Constitution making process. She is also experienced in the electoral management. So, there we do not even have any arguments and she is a renowned lawyer, a woman for that matter. So,she suitably qualified for that position to chair the ECZ board.

Madam Speaker, as for Mr Ali Derrick NjavwaSimwinga, I have a lot to talk about him. Those who know him like us, he actually has a horde of professionals who are working in the local government sector who say they are from the ‘Ali Simwinga academy’. That is the kind of legacy Mr Ali Derrick NjavwaSimwinga is bringing to ECZ. He has trained serious local government administers who are town clerks now. He has had very successful stints as Town Clerk at Lusaka City Council and Kitwe City Council. Most of those who have worked under him are the current town clerks you are seeing in most of these big cities. On that score, you cannot take that away from him. You know, these are the people who have been managing elections. So, with that experience surely, you cannot take anything away from him. He is suitably qualified.

Madam Speaker, lastly but not least, Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi, I heard about his having applicated to be adopted under the United Party for National Development (UPND), but that was a research he was carrying out in electoral process management when he was studying for his masters at the University of Zambia (UNZA).

Mr Nkombo: Correct.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, hon. Members must understand the academia to know that this was actually part of the research and practical he did. We know him for having interest of good governance and that is why he is involved in the civil society advocating for good governance.

Madam Speaker, on that note, I would like to submit that I support the appointment of these honourable people with all those accolades and attributes that I have mentioned.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, one of the nominees we are debating today is Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri, who has been appointed to serve as Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). I have got no issueswith this nominee because this is a man I have known. I think he is humble, dedicated to his work and I think he is going to do a good job. My advice to him is that he should be more professional than he has been as lawyer.

Madam Speaker, I have no issue with the appointment of Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa. He has been a civil servant for some time. On the nomination of Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba, there is no one in this House who has got no sin. We are all sinners. So, if somebody wants to crucify him because of certain things, that will not help us. We are all sinners in here and we have all made mistakes –

Interruptions 

Mr Ng’andu: You are alone in the sinning.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, we all have skeletons in our wardrobes.

Madam Speaker, I know Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis is a renowned lawyer with a career spanning over thirty years. I think she has performed well. However, we have got a problem between the two that after Madam Zaloumis, we are bringing in the deputy, I think it should be Mr Ali Derrick NjavwaSimwinga, who I think has served this country professionally, but maybe, we should have brought in a young person to take over the position.The reason is very simple; we need to brand the products we have in this country. If there is an older person there, he needs to pass on the mantle to another person. It is just important. What will happen in future if we lose all the matured people? How are we going to groom the young ones? This is my thinking.

Madam Speaker, I am also looking at Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I will skip the other person. I think for those who are close to Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi need to counsel him. Let us call a spade a spade. Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi has to go to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and see to it that he undresses himself of the cadreism people have clothed him in.The thing is people have painted him as a cadre.He might be clean, but everyone in this country has painted him as a cadre. So, now that he is going to ECZ, he needs to be professional and calm down. We are human beings.

Madam Speaker, we are human beings and can be tempted to comment on things when given positions, and we can make mistakes. So, people might take offence from whatever his comments. However, for now, as one amongst commissioners, he needs to discipline his mouth.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: We usually make mistakes when we talk. This is my appeal and this is what I am trying to recommend. So, to Mr McDonald Chipenzi, it is just important that we govern our country and conduct elections with all the professionalism there is.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I believe that the President chose the best people he could and we need to help him by supporting their nomination.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: That is what we need to do as Parliament. I do not think we will be helping our people if we are going to be beating about the bush. These are the people the President has chosen. They need not disappoint the President. Whichever mistake they make, by the end of the day, people will say that it is His Excellency the President who has made it. My appeal to those who have been nominated is that they see to it that they do their job excellently.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you for the two minutes left.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam, I will go straight to the issues in the nominations listed.From the outset, I support only two nominees. I will start with the nominated Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri. I know him personally;he was my lawyer. He is an astute lawyer with high integrity. He actually reminds me of one lawyer, the gallant lawyer of this soil we were putting to rest last week, Mr TutwaNgulube.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa:He isamong very few lawyerswe have seen who do not put money first. If they believe in a case, they go into it with their heart and fight for the case in court. When they win, that is when they tell a client that there is a bill. You actually remind them. So, having had the late lawyer, Tutwa,and Gilbert as my lawyers, I know that they are amongst lawyers that belong to thatgroup that does the job with high integrity and without fear or favour. So, I support the DPP nominee, Mr Phiri.

Madam Speaker, the second one I support is the nominee for Secretary to the Cabinet, Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa.He is the former Mayor of Lusaka. When you hear that someone is a former mayor, just know that he/she is not a small person.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Just know that he/she is a big person. It is an exclusive club. It is not easy to be a Mayor of Lusaka. Even when you hear that somebody was a Director of Legal Services at the Lusaka City Council –

Hon. PF Members: Town Clerk.

Mr Sampa: Yes, even Town Clerk. So, that is an exclusive club. Amongst the former mayors I know is Fisho Mwale, a big man as well.

At the memorial service of Micheal Chilufya Sata, I heard the Catholic Priest, Fr. Godwin Mulenga of St. Ignatius, who in his speech, somehow just said,“ ... and also the man across there, at the Cabinet, why has he been acting for a long time? Can you confirm him?” It left me thinking. Indeed, it looks like the President listens to Catholic Priests because it was only a few weeks later and Mr Patrick Kangwawas confirmed.This is a man, to the youth out there, from whom to learn the lesson that in life, you have to be patient.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa:Mpombowibilima, ababilimatabaya. It means that in life, do not be fast. Do not be excited and do not be impatient. Wait and what is meant for you will come.

Madam Speaker, Mr Patrick Kangwa has been waiting to be the Secretary to the Cabinet for years. Even when it looked like it was him to take over, it was not him, but he kept waiting. For years, he has been number two or three there, but finally, his time is here. So, I support his nomination.

Madam Speaker, let me now go to the people that I do not support on the list of nominees, and they are three. These are Mr McDonald Chipenzi; the nominated Chairperson of the (ECZ), Madam MwangalaZaloumis; and the nominated Director forthe Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba. Why do I not support these nominations?

Madam, let me start with Mr McDonald Chipenzi.In doing so, I will quote the report and go to page 11. Mr Chipenzi himself actually said that,“There are rumours that I am a cadre for the United Party for National Development (UPND), but I do know what ‘a cadre’ means. I was just sympathetic to its cause.” Essentially, he was indirectly accepting that he was a cadre. A cadre is anybody who is affiliated to a certain cause. It is either you believe in what the UPND believes in or you believe in what the Patriotic Front (PF) believes in.

We know that, indeed, he applied to be adopted for a seat inSiavonga or is it Chirundu. The UPND itself did not adopt him in 2021. It did not find him fit to become – it rejected him. The previous debater was even saying,“No, it was an experiment.” I think we are making a joke of this House. We know that he wanted to be a Council Chairperson, but the UPND rejected him. Today, it is bringing him to the ECZ, in a big position, with zero experience. So, based on that and the fact that the UPND, now in power, when in the Opposition, said it would not bring cadres into public institutions.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. What is the point of order, hon. Minister?

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I am rising pursuant to Standing Order 65 – Content of Speech.

Madam Speaker, in the United Party for National Development (UPND) where I am, was and, hopefully, will be for some time to come the Chairman responsible for elections, I am the one who has the final signature on who gets adopted to run elective office. I have been listening very quietly since morning, and now, to the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero insinuating that Mr Chipenzi was rejected by our party in his bid to represent people. This is totally not factual. Is he, therefore, in order to pretend as though he was a member of the UPND to authoritatively say that Mr Chipenzi was rejected when the facts are the opposite?

I seek your ruling on this matter, Madam.

Madam Speaker: To the extent that the hon. Member for Matero said Mr Chipenzi was rejected without knowing the actual facts, the hon. Member for Matero is out of order.

May the hon. Member for Matero continueand, please, be factual.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam, the other person I am rejecting is the nominated Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia, Madam Zaloumis. With due respect, I know her as well.She has been my lawyer before, but my stance is also based on the Government in power now and the promises that it gave that when it came into power, it would be a Government for the youth. We know that in this country, and in Africa in general, we have 65 per cent of our population being youth and 90 per cent of them unemployed.

First of all, I give a lot of respect to older people. They have a lot of wisdom, but when they are given tasks that are beyond them, it becomes a concern. She was born in 1947.She is seventy-five years old. Mr Ali Simwinga is also about seventy years old. Are there no younger people? Are we doing a favour to our senior citizens to be giving them roles like that? To be ECZ Chairperson takes a lot and there is a lot of pressure there. So, the UPNDisnot doing justice.It is not doing the country justice and it is going back on its word of always prioritising the youth.

Madam Speaker, before I move on from the issue of the ECZ Board Chairperson, I would like you to take note that she does not fully qualify for this position, given the precedence of people who have held that office. Almost all the former chairpersons of the ECZ were former judges of the Supreme Court and I will give you the list. One of the former ECZ chairpersons was Mr Bobby Bwalya, who was a former judge. In 2011, there was Judge Sakala, a former judge. There was also Judge IreenMambilima. We know the famous IreenMambalima from Matero, may her soul rest in peace. There was even a song done about her by the musician Drimz. She is the best chairperson that the ECZ has had. She was also a former judge. We also had Judge Chulu, who ushered this Government into power, and he was a former judge.

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, as regards the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) has rejected Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba. LAZ stopped his certification and rejected him. This is the association that owns all lawyers and he is a lawyer. However, he has been picked and given the ACC job when LAZ has rejected him. Therefore, you are not following due diligence and the report. So, I reject the ACC judge and reject the chairperson –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’stime expired.

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, at the outset, let me indicate that I have been privileged in this House in the last ten years to have sat on the Select Committee more than any other hon. Member of this House. Therefore, on that score, I wish to indicate that the fear that has been presented about time limitations in vetting members for ratification is understandable because throughout the time I sat on the Select Committee, there would always be a question of time. So, time will never be enough. The Select Committee worked within the same time we have been working in the last ten years and nothing has changed.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I am debating as a leader and not as a cadre because what we do here in this House is to offer leadership to the nation and not cadreism, so that what we say should be taken seriously. I, therefore, want to indicate that the nominees presented before this House are eminently qualified. They are professional and have met the legal and moral requirements for them to be able to take up the various positions for which they have been nominated.

Madam Speaker, this has been evidenced by the consensus of your Committee, which is not a United Party for National Development (UPND) Committee. It is a Committee of Parliament comprising hon. Members of Parliament of the UPND, the Patriotic Front (PF) and independent hon. Members. They unanimously agreed that these people are qualified. Who am I, therefore, as an individual to question the veracity of the consensus by an entire Committee which deliberated? These people, therefore, are going to serve in these positions having gone through one of the most tenacious vetting and ratification processes through various agencies and your Committee and now this House, the National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, I do not wish to speak on all the nominees, but I will begin with the Secretary to the Cabinet. His credentials speak for themselves and I think he is suitable. Beyond the qualification and experience he brings to this office, it is worth noting that his nomination by His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has exemplified the fact that the President is walking the talk because he said that civil servants who are professional and are Zambians will continue to offer a service, notwithstanding that they were nominated by the previous Administration.Do you shudder to think, Madam Speaker, that if this was a PF Administration and President, and they find a Deputy Secretary to Cabinet, he would have been somewhere at the farms by now.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: They could retire qualified civil servants in national interest simply on mere suspicion. Even by name! When one goes by the nameof Mweetwa, they would suspect that he must be UPND because he comes from Choma. That is the history we are coming from with these people (Pointing at the PF bench).

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: Therefore, they do not even have a proper locus standi of morality…

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: …to speak authoritatively on some of these things. If I were them, I would have opted to be a little bit sobre about the arguments because the history we have come from is so explicit. What the President has done, is what he said he would do. I am wondering why they did not recognise that fact. That is why I have brought it up because they must be honest. They cannot be just seeing wrong things. They must be seeing the right things as well so that we see that they mean well.

Madam Speaker, let me now move to Mr Chipenzi. The short version of the long story is the following:As Party Spokesperson of the UPND, I am in the National Management and the National Executive Committee of the UPND. We have not and did not receive any application from Mr Chipenzi to contest the last elections as it is being purported and being made perceivably to the public by some of the debaters. We have not. What Mr Chipenzi has been doing is to be a neutral commentator. In fact, as the UPND, at some point, we were even suspecting him as well to be peddling a particular agenda then we realised he was just being a neutral Zambian who has a right to express a political opinion.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: The Constitution, particularly, the Bill of Rights, affords every citizen the right to freedom of expression. On the Floor of this House, I have indicated before, that every citizen including civil servants, have the right to express their political opinion except that they are not allowed to be in active politics which is described by way of holding a party position to which Mr Chipenzi has never held one in the UPND or any political party that is known to me. So, allegations of him being a cadre are unfounded and baseless.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, let me quickly come to the issue of Mr Shamakamba and indicate that we have had people who have contested even to the level of becoming President who had issues in the public domain about their questionable conduct with the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ). Some have gone ahead to become Presidents. What is the difference with Mr Shamakamba?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, further, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. The former Solicitor-General, if I must buttress one point, and one Judge appeared before a Select Committee where Hon. Kampyongo and I sat with them and they agreed that they had applied to stand on PF ticket but they were still ratified.  Honourable Members come to this House and they want to change goalposts.

Madam, on the appointment of Mr Gilbert Phiri, I only have one statement to make, that is: Professionalism personified, integrity exemplified and he has lifted the credentials of the ACC to an extent that the public confidence he has commanded now at the ACC needs to go to the DPP where corrupt people have been surviving because dockets have been sat on. Now, the right person has been taken to the right office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, thank you so very much for allowing the voice of Lumezi to make its submission on the Motion.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I must mention that I am taking a very different dimension to the Motion. I will start with Mr Gilbert Phiri. We were of the view, as a people in Lumezi, that Mr Phiri should have remained at the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) because we are now destroying the institutional memory.

Madam Speaker, what will happen now? I have heard submissions that we need to do an overhaul at the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). We should bear in mind that not long ago, Mr Phiri went to do an overhaul at the ACC. One year has elapsed. Again, we are going to spend one year doing an overhaul at the National Prosecution Authority (NPA).What are we going to achieve at the end of the day if one person will be seen to be doing on overhaul in different institutions? I think the person going to the ACC, though the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) questioned his credibility for having had his license revoked at some point, could have gone to the ACC, unlike him going to the ACC. Again, he is going to do an overhaul. We are not doing anything different and we are going to have the same results. Mr Phiri should have been kept at the ACC and take a new person to the NPA. What is happening is there is going to be conflict of interest.

Madam Speaker, I believe in the separation of powers, but Mr Phiri arrested a number of people in this country whilst at the ACC. Now, the same person who arrested is going to prosecute. That will be conflict of interest. So, I have got difficulties accepting that transfer, and not on his credentials. As regards the issue of credibility, some people ascended to being President when LAZ had revoked their licences. What was wrong yesterday cannot be correct today. What is wrong is wrong and what is right is right. The Executive should be doing the right thing.

Madam Speaker, I have no issues with counsel MwangalaZaloumis and I will not segregate because of her age. I will not segregate McDonald Chipenzi because I am in the same WhatsApp group with him. All we are saying is credibility. Credibility is what we need in these institutions. If there is something that causes spike, it is an election. This country is always divided when we are going towards an election. The issues of who one chooses to work with is purely based on the appointing authority. We respect that the appointing authority has decided to bring us Mr Simwinga whose son I was in the same class with. So, again, I have no objection.

Mr Speaker, the Executive should have considered issues of institutional memory. I assure you that two years down the line, we are not going to secure convictions because we are doing trial and error. We should have settled down and be seen to be decisive in decision making. I think the President was ill advised on the transfer of Mr Gilbert Phiri from the ACC because I believe he was building his own team. Now, he is abandoning a project that he started. Maybe, some people believe that corruption has ended and that it is time for conviction. Corruption is a daily business. We needed Mr Phiri at Kulima Tower Building to secure enough arrests from the past, present and the future. So, with those few remarks, I reluctantly support this Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity given to me to debate this Motion. I will talk about the Secretary to the Cabinet.

Madam Speaker, countries that have developed have done so because they have invested in the Civil Service. It is our considered view that the gentleman whose appointment we are ratifying today, having been in the Civil Service for a long period of time, is going to bring the experience that he has had in the Civil Service. Firstly, he is going to support the Presidency and line ministries in undertaking reforms and turning around the Civil Service.

Madam Speaker, when you are a political party and you come into Government, you come with your manifesto. The question is: Who is going to implement that manifesto? The machinery that implements manifestos is the Civil Service. Therefore, if you have a Civil Service whose culture is not aligned or oriented to performance, it becomes difficult for any political party, it does not matter how intelligent the people in it are,to implement and fulfil the political commitmentsthat it made to the people of Zambia.Therefore, it my considered view on behalf of the people of Mwense, that Comrade Patrick Kangwa is going to ensure that the experience he has in the Civil Service helps the leadership in terms of providing strategic leadership in reforming the Civil Service.

Madam, firstly, if you look at the comments that he made, he talked about a poor culture in the Civil Service. The question is: What is he going to do to turn around that poor culture?

Madam, secondly, he talked about decentralisation. I am sure the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is a capable hon. Minister, but he requires this nerve centre called the Cabinet Office to move with speed to ensure a robust decentralisation policy and programme in this country.

Yes, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been increased, but the question is: Is the CDF anchored on a functional decentralisation system? The policy is there. So, I am of the considered view that Mr Kangwa is going to support the leadership in ensuring that decentralisation is quickly implemented.

Today, if you were to go round constituencies, these hon. Members you see here, I am not debating them, are everything in their constituencies when they are supposed to focus on the legislative agenda of the country. Every development in this country is anchored on the hon. Member of Parliament. Why? If we implemented a decentralisation system in this country, it would help and make sure that hon. Members of Parliament focus on the legislative and policy agenda of the country and then our colleagues in Councils could to implement the many programmes that emanate from this House.

Madam Speaker, it is my considered view that Comrade Kangwa is going to support the Government and turn the Civil Service around and ensure it is performance oriented in delivering the party manifesto of the Government that comes in.

Madam Speaker, the other thing that he should help the Government with is to realise that it takes time and expense to train the Civil Service. The Civil Service is the machinery that is supposed to outlive any political party. However, like my other colleagues debated, when a political party comes into the Government, obviously, some civil servants, including those who are talented with institutional memory, go for whatever reasons and circumstances. The question is: Do we need to define a standard in this country that when there is transition in governance, the top leadership should go with the Government that is exiting or are we going to have so many payrolls with others at home and so on and forth?

Therefore, as part of the reforms that Comrade Kangwa’s experience must bring to the Civil Service is to ensure that we define a standard so that we do not have a system where we have so many people who are at home and so forth and so forth. Since there is a performance culture, the Government that is going to come in is going to assess those individuals based on whether they are able to deliver on the party manifesto of the Government of the day.

Madam Speaker, I quickly move on to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). The nerve centre for democracy in any country is its electoral commission. I am not going to talk about the individuals that have been nominated to go and serve at the ECZ. However, my humble request on behalf of the leadership which has nominated these people is that we have men and women who are going to take an independent and nonpartisan role in the nerve centre of this country. Our cherished peace and democracy which we have enjoyed for fifty-eight years,if we are not careful and encourage a partisanship approach in the management and administration of elections, will be lost. Therefore, it is my considered view that the men and women whose nomination we are about to ratify will take independence to the ECZ and transform it.

Madam Speaker, in the recent past, we have seen the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security coming here to give ministerial statements on violence associated with elections. Surely, after fifty-eight of independence,why should we have violence? Political competition should be based on the ideas of political competitors and not on violence. Therefore, I hope that our colleagues who are being appointed will go and support us to transform the ECZ so that elections are based on credibility. They should be free, fair and transparent. I hope our colleagues will look at the ECZ and, going forward, ensure that commissioners have tenure of office.

In this country, the commissioners at the ECZ do not have a tenure of office. Look at what is happening in Kenya. Those who followed the elections that happened in Kenya will attest to the fact that the commissioners there were in two factions. Today, those who did not support the current President because they did not want to support the sovereignty of the country and the will of the people of Kenya are going through a tribunal. Therefore, the nominees who have been appointed to serve as commissioners at the ECZ should hold their loyalty to the country called Zambia and to the people of Zambia, and not to the appointing authority. It is, therefore, my considered view that they will exercise that independence.

With that said, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, let me first state my unequivocal state of mind in supporting the nominees, starting with appreciating the President who has the prerogative of nominating such eminent persons.

Madam Speaker, Mr Hichilema has demonstrated that he has been very sensitive to the issue of regionalism. If you look at all these nominees, although in different areas, Mr Simwinga and Mr Kangwa come from the north, Mr Chipenzi from the south, Madam MwangalaZaloumis from the West, and Mr Tom Shamakamba from Central Province. I take my hat off to the President for living up to the word that he would make nominations based on regional representation. Well done, Mr President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the two key things about these nominees, quoting from the report, is that all the stakeholders indicated that the nominees had authentic qualifications and were duly awarded by credible institutions and that they had integrity and were eminently qualified for these jobs. Constitutionally, they all qualified.

Madam Speaker, let me come to Mr Tom Shamakamba. I want to ride on the principle of innocence until one is proven guilty. As I speak to you, I am on a nolle prosequi. Since 2013, it has been hanging around this neck because I was taken in for murder by the Patriotic Front (PF). However, it does not disqualify me from representing people because of the fact of the principle of innocence until one is proven guilty. So, Mr Shamakamba, according to the report – yes, the Law Association of Zambia, which he belongs to, has a little bit of doubt but it did not a cast its position so clearly because as I point a finger at you, three of them are pointing at me and I will not use the term ‘sinners’ as my colleague from Nyimba said.

Madam Speaker, Mr Tom Shamakamba is currently serving as a Commissioner in the Human Rights Commission. What would stop him from serving in the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC)? They say cast the first stone. I want to put it to you that he is imminently qualified and even if these matters of the investigation were to be brought alive, it is only then that they can say he does not qualify.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to Mrs MwangalaZaloumis, I am very surprised by the negative sentiments that have come from some of our colleagues on account of age. To me, looking at the sentiments from my political spectacles – it is not by design that I had to think like that.

Madam Speaker, Mr Patrick Kangwa comes from the north; he comes from the old school. Again, I congratulate the President who said that the people who are honest in the Civil Service will be rewarded. Mr Kangwa earned that. There is no problem. Mr Kangwa was a Mayor like my colleague from Matero. A Mayor comes from a political cadre.Why was it not important for them to saythat Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa, once upon a time, held political office? I do support him. He is a close friend of mine at family level, but I just want to draw the dichotomy in thinking by some of our people, here, in this House.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I refer to Standing Order 65 which provides that content of speech must be factual. When he refers to Mayor Kangwa as a cadre,is he in order to mislead the nation because mayors are non-political and they hold a civic duty. That is why when they are serving in that position, they take care of everyone, whether from the Patriotic Front (PF) or the United Party for National Development (UPND), as the previous mayor was doing.

 I seek your ruling.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, from the context that the hon. Minister was debating, the hon. Minister is in order.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, another example why I think our friends are still thinking there archaic regionalism mould, Mr Ali Simwinga is clearly older than Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis. Why was it not an issue here in the debate? Mr Ali Simwinga is an eminent human being and we needed institutional memory. Hon. Mwiimbu and I have very difficult memories of how the Patriotic Front (PF) in Mahondo, in Sesheke treated us. It was like a war zone. It took us calling Mr Ali Simwinga, sitting in that commission, in those dark days,saying that as the United Party for National Development (UPND), we were withdrawing from this race for Hon. Kangombe because the PF and Edgar Lungu, then President, had taken over our two slots to make our final campaign. We wrote to Mr Ali Simwinga saying we were withdrawing from the election. He rose and went and addressed an election press conference, where he ordered the PF to leave the site. That is an eminent person and he deserves rewarding, regardless of age.

Madam Speaker, Mr McDonald Chipenzi is very young. He was born in 1976and somebody is asking: Where are the youths? Mr McDonald Chipenzi has distinguished himself as a governance specialist and a watchdog.  He came here during the PF. Maybe he is paying for the sins of his past, where they were demonstrating against the application of the Public Order Act. There ones here (pointing at the PF hon. Members).

Madam Speaker, today the Public Order Act is no longer an issue. When Mr McDonald Chipenzi was saying he has a soft spot for the victimised, it included these ones here (pointing at the PF hon. Members) because had we decided to apply the Public Order Act in the manner they applied it, they would have no political space today. These ones here (pointing at the PF hon. Members),unhang us from radio stations, yet today, as I am talking to you, they are busy demonising us on the same radio station. What is good for the goose is good for the gander and it is good to have an attribute of social shame.

Madam Speaker, I said enough about Mr Gilbert Phiri and I will not repeat myself.

Madam, let me say just a little about Mr Patrick Kangwa, again. He is eminently qualified and, at the expense of emphasis, Mr Hichilema has broken through the spectacles of regional selection. Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa rubbed shoulders with Mr Edgar Lungu and these ones here (pointing at PF hon. Members). He has exemplified himself as a good man and therefore he deserves the appointment. For me, the kudos do not go to Mr Patrick Kangwa, it goes to the appointing authority because, as I said, it is his prerogative. If he was in a state of mind and saying that all that was old is bad and we are going to bring in the new, Mr Patrick Kangwa would not have been the top civil servant today.

Madam Speaker, in ending my debate, I support all the nominees and I urge the House, especially these ones (pointing at PF hon. Members), to stop seeing things with a political spectacle, where everything is about dividing the country. These are the ones who once said that if Mr Hichilema was voted in, he will cut the country into two. Has he done that?

I thank you.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to rise and support the nominations of the five nominees who are being considered today.

Madam Speaker, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I will be failing in my duty if I do not refer to the past conduct of the Patriotic Front (PF). I have with me the constitution of the PF. For the use of reference, allow me to quote from the constitution of the PF. I will like to quote Article 3 of thatconstitution.

Madam Speaker, according to the PF Constitution, which I have –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, there is an indication for a point of order from the Leader of the Opposition. What is your point of order?

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, even as the speaker on the Floor wants to refer to some document, there was a ruling in this House yesterday, that whenever anhon. Member intends to lay a document on the Table, he or she ought to submit it to the Office of the Speaker, I do not know whether it is two days or twelve hours before.

Madam Speaker, in any case, even as he intends to proceed on that trajectory, I hope he also refers to our standing order as a party, which made amendments to the constitution that he may wish to refer to.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker:Order!

The hon. Minister was referring to a constitution, but I understand now that it has been amended. So, please, be factual as you debate.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am alarmed that the hon. Leader of the Opposition is jumping to conclusions.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, do you know what I want to say?

Hon. PF Members: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu:What do I want to say?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, according to the constitution of the PF, which our colleagues had in the last ten years,and used to make appointments in the Civil Service and Public Service, Article 3, which stated at the time that the party shall ensure that every appointee shall be –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Just by way of guidance, the constitution is not being laid on the Table, he is just quoting it.

Mr Mwiimbu: I am just stating what is in the constitution. I am not laying it on the Table. I do not fear any contradiction because it is a fact. The constitution provided that any appointees shall be a strict adhererof the PF manifesto and constitution.

Hon. Government Members: Shame.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, any other person could not be appointed. However, as United Party for National Development (UPND), we do not consider one’s political affiliation. That is the attribute of our President. He has even considered members who had been appointed in accordance with Article 3, but we have not considered that.

Madam Speaker, because of competences, we have adopted those whom they had appointed based on Article 3 of their Constitution.

Mr Jamba: Correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, so, it just shows theacumen of the current President, who does not use a political eye when making appointments.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1255hoursuntil 1430 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was indicating that unlike our colleagues who served under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, we do not consider political affiliation when we make appointments. The appointments we make are meritorious. We look at the competences and qualifications of individuals.

Madam Speaker, in this case, when we were making the appointments which are under consideration, we looked at the qualifications and competences the nominees hold. I am proud to state that all of the five nominees have the requisite qualifications and necessary competences that will enable them to serve this country.

Madam Speaker, I am aware of the fears our colleagues have. They tend to think that because these nominees are being appointed by President Hakainde Hichilema, they will owe allegiance to the President in his individual capacity. The answer is no. These individuals who are being appointed will be sworn to protect the Constitution of Zambia. I have no doubt in my mind that they will live by the oath they are going to take.

Madam Speaker, being the appointing authority does not mean that you have the right to control the individuals you appoint. I would like to give a living example. All the former commissioners at the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) were appointed by the former Presidents of the PF. However, when elections of 2021 came, they lived by their oath. They ensured that they superintended over elections of this country and that the rights of the electorate were protected. We, who did not put them in office, had the privilege of winning the elections under the same individuals our colleagues now doubt.

Madam, Commissioner Simwinga was a commissioner in 2021 under the PF. He was appointed by the PF and he is still a commissioner. So, even if we do not ratify his nomination as Vice-Chairperson, he will still remain a commissioner. We are merely promoting Commissioner Simwinga because of his professionalism and competences to become the Vice-Chairperson of the ECZ.

Madam Speaker, our colleagues should not fear. All that they have to indicate to this House, if they have concerns, is that the law that regulates elections in this country is complied with. Then they will have no fear. Even during the time Mr Simwinga led the ECZ, they won elections. Why did they not doubt the elections which he superintended over? It is because they know deep down their hearts that there is competence in the men and women who are superintending over elections in this country. So, we should not fear.

Mr Mushanga: We are not fearing.

Mr Mwiimbu: I can see the fear on your face.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to implore all of us in this House –

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I am raising a very serious point of order based on the traditions and practices of this House anchored on the jurisprudence upon which we conduct the business of this House.

Madam Speaker, this morning, hon. Members of the Patriotic Front (PF) raised a number of allegations on the nominees which they could not even properly substantiate, but did speculatively mislead the nation on various issues. Now that the hon. Members of the Executive are giving the correct information to allay the fears of unsuspecting members of the public, who may have believed the misinformation from the PF, they are not here.

Mr Mukosa: We are here.

Mr Mweetwa: There are just two of them, and the two who are here were not there in the morning.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam, are they in order to make accusations and allegations and when the Executive is giving the correct information, they disappear?

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling because these are serious matters. From here, they will go to radio stations to misinform the nation the same way they did this morning.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Of course, we note that only a few hon. Patriotic Front (PF) Members are in the House, but we cannot suspend business on account of a few hon. PF Members who are not here. I am sure they are still enjoying the lunch which has been given at the pleasure of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. So, they will join us. They will follow the proceedings on radio and television.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I was imploring all hon. Members of this august House to support your Committee’s recommendations.

Further, Madam Speaker, I would like to allay the assertions that were made by my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu, who indicated that the Government does not want to promote officers who are serving in the same department or ministry, unlike the way they used to do it in the past, and he gave an example of the immediate former Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

Madam Speaker, the correct position is that the former DPP was not a serving member of the National Prosecutions Authority at the time she was appointed. At the time she was appointed, she was staying in London. She was called back by the PF Government to be appointed as DPP. Let us not mislead members of the public. That is the correct position.

Madam Speaker, I just want to state that the five nominees will do us proud as a nation and this House in their deliverance of duties they will be assigned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We are missing the voices of female hon. Members, but because of time and since they did not indicate, unfortunately, we have to wind up. So, I call the hon. Minister of Justice to respond on behalf of the Government.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate regarding the Presidential appointmentand nomination of Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri to serve as Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa to serve as Secretary to the Cabinet and Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba to serve as Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), and Mrs Frances MwangalaZaloumis, Mr Ali Derrick NjavwaSimwinga and Mr McDonald Governor Chipenzi to serve as Chairperson, Vice-Chairperson and Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), respectively.

Madam Speaker, allow me to commend the work of the Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointments of the aforementioned persons in their respective roles. The respective Presidential appointments have been made by taking into account Article 259 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, which provides that nominations and appoints must take into account the requisite qualifications to discharge the functions of the office as prescribed. Further, the Presidential appointments took into account the requirement of the 50 per cent appointment of each gender and regional diversity of the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, I have taken note of the Committee’s observations and recommendations on the need to take into account youth representation and persons with disabilities in making appointments going forward as well as the need to ensure that the ratification of appointments is done in good time.

Madam Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, allow me to express profound gratitude to the Parliamentary Select Committee for the comprehensive appraisal and due diligence in scrutinising the Presidential appointments.

Madam Speaker, there has been debate on the Floor of this House regarding the said appointments and the Motion that the appointees’ nomination be ratified. I thank all the debaters who contributed, that is to say the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu, although he is not here and the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central. I also thank the hon. Members of Parliament, respectively, for Luena, Malole, Zambezi East, Nyimba, Matero, Lumezi, Mwense and also not forgetting the Members of the Executive, the hon. Minister for Southern Province, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and, of course, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, may I say that insofar as the debates were progressive and supported the nominations, I adopt them as my own on behalf of the appointing authority. I just wish to comment further with regard to some insinuations and allegations that have been put forward, which would tend to put a doubt in the minds of the people of Zambia as to the veracity of the appointments made.

Madam Speaker, it cannot be overemphasised that under the New Dawn Government, the appointment, or nomination for appointment, of persons to various public offices is unlike that which we have seen traditionally occurring in the recent past, where political patronage was the basis upon which persons were selected or nominated to hold public office. In the New Dawn Administration, the people of Zambia must understand that all appointments and nominations to public office are made on the basis of merit.

Madam Speaker, that being said, I would like to speak specifically to some of the nominees who are before this House for ratification.

Madam Speaker, the nominee for Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Gilbert Phiri, is a well-known astute legal practitioner who has practiced for more than the requisite number of years to hold this position. Recently, or shall I say in the immediate past, this nominee acquitted himself in an exemplary fashion as the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). There is a track record for the people of Zambia in this short space of time to judge him by and, indeed, for the hon. Members of this House to support his ratification. I need not say more.

Madam Speaker, there has been some insinuation around Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba as the nominee for the role of Director-General of ACC. In essence, the argument has been that he does not qualify or ought not to be ratified because of some alleged infringement that occurred more than ten, or is it even thirteen years ago, in relation to the practice of law by this otherwise exemplary legal practitioner.

Madam Speaker, it must be underscored for the benefit of the people of Zambia that no evidence whatsoever was laid when one looks at the report of this practitioner not having a current practicing certificate. In fact, for the last ten years or so when this allegation has been hanging over his head, he has continually held a practicing certificate and has not been held to account by the legal practitioners or the disciplinary committee in any way. Quite clearly, this is a suitable person to hold that particular office. What is more, Madam Speaker, is that it must be noted that the prosecution that was being undertaken by the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), and with due respect to our association, we must remember that as prosecutor, the LAZ ought to have declared a conflict of interest and should not have made that submission as it did to the Select Committee. It is no wonder that the Select Committee opted to take theposition that it did. Therefore, the people of Zambia should remember that important factor that we have considered as the appointing authority in putting forward this name for nomination.

Madam Speaker, it has been suggested that Mr Macdonald Chipenzi is a cadre. There can be nothing further from the truth because this is an individual whose track record, as a protector of the rule of law, speaks for itself. This is an individual who does not take any sides when it comes to standing up for what is correct in terms of governance issues and the rule of law.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe, SC: This is an individual that is on record as having ostracised all political parties that have played a role that is negative in the advancement of our democracy. That is the typical example of a person that should be given the role of custodian of the electoral laws of this country. He is, without question, a proper candidate for the position and I humbly submit to this House that his appointment be ratified.

Madam Speaker, on the proposed Chairperson of the ECZ, it has been suggested that perhaps younger people would have been given the opportunity. That time will come. In the meantime, the New Dawn Government is taking a reformist agenda that requires persons who are vested with knowledge of how our laws have developed over the years inorder to bring something valuable to the table. Madam Zaloumis has done that. She has sat on no less than three constitutional review commissions. Who else, other than her, can bring the wealth of authority and experience to the reformist agenda so that we bring a new life to the ECZ of it being responsive to the needs of thepeopleof Zambia? Again, I can only describe this nominee as perfect.

Madam Speaker, quite obviously, looking at all the five nominees, the appointing authority addressed his mind to theneeds of our current democracy above any political inclination or anything else other than on merit and what will be good for our country. In this regard, I urge the hon. Members of this House to adopt the Report of the Select Committee and ratify all five nominees.

Madam Speaker, I beg to submit.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much once more for giving me the opportunity to conclude this matter and I also thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for providing us with that nice lunch. That is why I can even stand majestically and proudly so.

Madam Speaker, allow me to state that your Committee notes the concerns that were raised by the debaters, those who debated vigorously and reluctantly. On the same, we note the issues raised on Mrs MwangalaZaloumis, Chairperson of the ECZ, Mr Macdonald Chipenzi andMr Tom Trevor Shamakamba.

Madam Speaker, on Madam MwangalaZaloumis, I just want to say that as your Committee, yes, we appreciate that we need young people like us to take up positions but that position requires sobriety, level headedness and maturity. It is not an institution that you just give to us, young people, who might be overzealous for nothing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, there were also issues that were raised that she was a cadre. When we were interviewing the nominee, your Committee noted that when the nomineewas the lawyer representing our first President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, on a treason charge, she was accused by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) that she was a member of the United  Nation Independence Party (UNIP). When she was a lawyer for Dr Fredrick Chiluba, she was also accused of being MMD. The list goes on. In 2016, when she was a lawyer for His Excellency the President, by then in Opposition, she was accused of being UPND. For her to serve the Heads of State and the current Head of Stateshows thecalibre of the nominee that we have to ratify for the ECZ.

Madam Speaker, on Mr Chipenzi Macdonald, your Committee scrutinised and interviewed the nominee and I think one hon. Member, the hon. Member for Zambezi East, mentioned that he was doing his studies for his Master Degree but at the same time, as your Committee, we were very thorough. I do not want to do repetitions. I do not know why we easily forget that there is a precedent that there was Hon. David Matongo, who was Member of Parliament under the UPND for ten years and in 2015, he was appointed as commissioner under the PF.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chabinga: So, I do not know whether he took politics to the ECZ. We easily forget these things.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, on the nominee Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba, the issues that were raised on him shocked your Committee because the same witness who said they were not supporting Mr Shamakamba’s appointment – Madam Speaker, let me refer to the Select Committee that you appointed on 20^th May, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, just wind up your debate, you are running out of time. Do not reopen the debate.

Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, well guided. When Mr Shamakamba was appointed that time to serve as Human Rights Commissioner, they never raised these matters that he was not eligible and that he had cases. They said he had no cases but this time, cases resurfaced because he was being appointed to serve at the ACC.

Madam Speaker, to conclude,let me say thank you very much to all the hon. Members that debated vigorously and reluctantly.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

______

BILLS

REPORT STAGE

The Securities (Amendment) Bill, 2022

Report adopted.

Third Readings today.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order Hon. Members! You have come in late and you want to disrupt the proceedings.

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2022

Report adopted.

Third Readings today.

THIRD READING

 

The Following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Securities (Amendment) Bill, 2022

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2022

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2022

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 88 – (Muchinga Province – K82,245,296), VOTE 90 – (Lusaka Province K131,977,212), VOTE 91 – (Copperbelt Province – K111,226,666), VOTE 92 – (Central Province – K109,072,940), VOTE 93 – (Northern Province – K111,752,221), VOTE 94 – (Western Province - K119,328,492), VOTE 95 – (Eastern Province  – K102,375,167), VOTE 96 – (Luapula Province – K106,921,646), VOTE 97 – (North-Western Province – K102,563,027) and VOTE 98 – (Southern Province K113,189,519).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for permitting the voice of Lumezi to speak to this particular Vote.

Madam Chairperson, at your discretion, may I be allowed to speak in four minutes so that one more Independent hon. Member can use the other four minutes.

Madam Chairperson: I think that was discouraged yesterday. So, I it will not be fair for me to allow that when we did not allow somebody yesterday. It would have been even better if they had given you their points so that you debate on their behalf.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. I think I will try to exhaust the maximum points on their behalf.

Madam Chairperson, I will start my debate on this Vote by reminding the House of what happened in 1993 during the Gabon Disaster when we lost our National Football team. We had a referee called Jean-FidèleDiramba (Diramba).

Madam Chairperson, the United Party for National Development (UPND) should be a better referee than the referee that was nicknamed Diramba. Eastern Province has so many scars to it like Poor road network, poor infrastructure development and no desks in schools.

Madam Chairperson, 80 per cent of the province is a farming block. It is now that we have a few minesand hunting blocks mushrooming in certain areas. All these places have been neglected by the previous successive regimes that I would call a bad referee in the name of Diramba.

Madam Chairperson, the constituency I represent, Lumezi, just like Lundazi and Chasefu, has a poor road network. Yesterday, I heard people complain about the state of the Sesheke/Kazungula Road. Such is the case with the state of the Chipata/Lundazi/Chasefu/Chama Road. If we have the worst road network in this country, I would say it with my eyes closed that it is in the Eastern Province. We hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will consider allocating more money to this sector because our farmers are falling to transport their farming inputs from their farms to points of sale or from getting fertiliser from the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) depots to the farms. Transport works out to be expensive because a journey that is supposed to cover forty-five minutes takes four hours.

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, I used to drive from Chipata to Lumezi under forty-five minutes. Today, it takes me four hours, a stretch that ordinarily should take an hour.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should equally take note that Chipata is now a city. The airport has not been functioning. When people decide to fly into the Eastern Province, they have to land in Mfuwe. Why not open up Chipata Airport?

Madam, it is a fact that previously, we had a referee called Diramba, and that is the reason we have lagged behind. If these things are not addressed, we will say that even the United Party for National Development (UPND) is that referee called Diramba from Gabon who mistreated the Zambia National Football Team. I know it is not the wish of the Executive to behave like Diramba.

Madam Chairperson, if you look at the Chasefu/Chama Road from the time Zambia was declared an independent State, it has never known a tarmac. However, it is surprising that a Public Private Partnership (PPP) advert was put up two months ago. I, who uses that route doubt if there is any contractor who would construct that road under the PPP model because we do not have traffic that can attract a PPP investment. So, realistically speaking, on behalf of my colleagues from Chasefu, Chama and Chipangali, even the delay of supplying agricultural inputs from the Ministry of Agriculture is as a result of a poor road network. We are in the rainy season, and may not know if certain areas are going to receive farming inputs.

Madam Chairperson, as I support the allocation, I hope that we can be given a lot more resources so that our roads are attended to. We have been neglected for having a bad referee for a long time, and I hope the UPND Government is not going to be a ‘Diramba.’

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, I thank you for giving me a chance to debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, firstly, I fully support this Vote and wish there could even be more given to the Eastern Province. Let me start with what Google explains about the Eastern Province. Hon. Mpundu gave this definition to me, here. He said, “Just look at how poor you are.” Where you are, if you just Google Eastern Province it will tell you. It says:

“This is the most rural and poorest province in Zambia with the majority of its population considered vulnerable”.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: You are questioning Google!

Ms Nyirenda: That is uncle Google telling us what the Eastern Province is like.

Madam Chairperson, whatever was being said should not be taken as the gospel truth. I know we have traversed the Eastern Province. Some hon. Ministers who have gone to the Eastern Province and Committees that have been to the Eastern Province can agree with me that surely, the Eastern Province is lagging behind. It is not good to look at matters from a political angle. It is better to deal with real analyses so that you are able to deal with some of the challenges.

Madam Chairperson, let me bring out first the issue of education. There is no day that goes without the dailies reporting that the Eastern Province has the highest number of girls being impregnated. One of the reasons most girls are being impregnated is the lack of boarding schools. There are very few boarding schools in Nyimba, Petauke, Katete, Chipata and Lundazi. If I had to be personal about this debate, I would tell you that the only secondary school which is in Lundazi is the one that was left by Dr Kaunda, may his soul rest in peace, and today, the people can have a voice speaking on behalf of the people of the Eastern Province. So, I am making an appeal to the hon. Minister to Education, through the hon. Minister for the Eastern Province, to look into the issue of secondary schools in the Eastern Province.

Madam Chairperson, let me comment on prisons. Most prisoners right now are gathered around Namuseche and Lundazi areas. For Chama, Chasefu and all surrounding areas, we have a very tiny room which is not even equal to this room we are in, which accommodates so many prisoners. This is an issue which the hon. Minister for the Eastern Province needs to look into as some of the people in the prison are having communicable diseases because of the congestion.

Madam Chairperson, among the causes of congestion in prisons is due to human-animal conflict. Most of the people who are in prison committed minor crimes like killing a rabbit in a Game Management Areas (GMA) and have to serve long sentences. This is causing many people, and women in particular, in our districts to continue suffering as most of their men are locked up in prisons for a long time.

I appeal to the hon. Minister for the Eastern Province, as he sits in the Cabinet, to air these views to the President so that through a presidential pardon the number of prisoners in the Eastern Province can be reduced.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that I want to talk about is agriculture. We are a province that totally depends on agriculture. As I said, we are a poor province, but shall not remain so. We can come out of the poverty we face. The only thing that needs to be done is to enhance developmentof agriculture. The other day, I read that 150 people had been sent to go to Israel. Since we have the soils and water, would it be bad for the Government, ...

Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson,

Ms Nyirenda: ... through its policies, brings some important people who can teach us new methods on how to do –

Madam Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, I rarely, in my history here, rise on points of order. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order 65, which states that a member who is debating shall ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.

Madam Chairperson, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is on record, on the Floor of this House, telling us and the public that there was massive development in the Eastern Province and the Northern Province. Is the hon. Member for Lundazi in order to indicate that the Eastern Province is the poorest when for ten years, Members of the PF were boasting here?

I need your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Thank you for that point of order. All I can say is that Ms Nyirenda is the new hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi.

Laughter

The Chairperson: She is telling us what exists in her constituency. So, because of that, the hon. Member for Lundazi is in order to tell us what exactly is pertaining on the ground, not what was said when she was not there.

May the hon. Member continue.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Chairperson, thank you for protecting me.

Madam Chairperson, in addition, the hon. Minister for Eastern Province should consider engaging the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development because from Lundazi or Chama up to Chongwe, there are no places for public convenience. When you are using a bus, drivers park where there is a bush, and they allow the people to go and help themselves in the bush. It is a stretch of about 800 km, and it would be wise for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to come up with a deliberate policy to ensure that there are lavatories, which people who travel using buses can use. This may be the case everywhere else apart from the Eastern Province.

Madam Chairperson, let me speak sternly about human-animal conflicts. There have been many reports on the Floor of this House of people being killed in Chama, Katete and elsewhere. We wish the hon. Minister would engage with the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment so that they can look at the issue of human-animal conflicts.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Lundazi and every hon. Member of Parliament from the Eastern Province wish that the Government will have mercy on our province.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: According to the list that I have, the last hon. Member is Mr Daka.

Mr J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Chadiza an opportunity to speak on behalf of the rest of the Members from the Eastern Province.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to amplify the need for roads for the people of the Eastern Province. Most road contracts exceed the tenure of office of most Governments. Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Members on the right is that the need for continuity of projects which are viable and well meant, especially in the road infrastructure sector, cannot be overemphasised.

Madam Chairperson, so many examples can be given on this matter. Let me give an example of the formula one projects, which the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government started. These were very political road projects and they were commenced a few months before the election date. When the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into power in 2011, it discarded those projects, yet their construction was well intended. They were meant for the people but the manner they came into being was very political. So, I am appealing to the hon. Members on the right, who are in the Government now, to sieve the projects. Those projects that are viable and meant for the people should not be done away with.

Madam Chairperson, this leads me to the recent cancellation of forty-nine contracts which affected the Eastern Province. I was listening to semantics yesterday where people were debating about the termination and expiry of contracts. When a contract expires, there is no need for you to terminate it. All you need to do is call all the concerned parties, come up with a final account and do away with it. You can only terminate a contract which is running. To me, semantics are not important. What is important is for the Government to give us the way forward. It can choose anything to do with the direction in which it is supposed to execute the road contracts, but what is important is that the people of the Eastern Province need roads, and it has the responsibility to provide road infrastructure.

Madam Chairperson, this leads me to discussing the main and truck roads that the people of the Eastern Province need. We have so many challenges in road infrastructure development in the Eastern Province. The road from Katete to Chanida Border is in a very deplorable state, yet it is very economical. The road from Chipata to Chadiza is very important because the agricultural products which feed the people of Chipata are transported through this road. Further, the road from Chipata to Lundazi is already of bituminous standard, but it is also in a dilapidated state, and the Government needs to give it attention. As for the road from Chipata to Vubwi, the Government has –

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Continue!

Mr J. Daka: Madam Chairperson, I was talking about the road from Chipata to Vubwi. This is –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 203(3)(b), on the conduct of Members and I will read it, for you not to get lost. It says that a member shall disclose any pecuniary interest to the House before speaking on the matter before the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Part (c) states that a member shall declare interest in a Government contract made or proposed to be made between the member and the Government.

Madam Chairperson, like many this side, there (pointing at hon. PF Members) – Mr Jonathan Daka is an acclaimed civil engineer who has benefitted from road contracts in his job.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Nkombo: No, he has worked, to be fair. Is he, therefore, in order not to declare interest that the agenda he is pushing gives him pecuniary interest? I seek your ruling on this matter.

Mr J. Daka rose.

Interruptions

 The Chairperson: Order!

Before you continue, hon. Member, I have to make a ruling.

If, indeed, you have any interest in the matter that you are debating, our Standing Orders are very clear that such a member is supposed to disclose that.So, if, indeed, what the hon. Minister has brought out in his point of order is true, which we believe since he is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development maybe attached to those projects that he is talking about, then the hon. Member is out of order.

Interruptions

Mr J. Daka: Madam Chairperson, unfortunately, I am not a participant in any of the contracts that I am talking about.

Madam Chairperson: My guide to you would be that if indeed you are a participant, then you can please move away from that matter and concentrate on other issues.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Chairperson, unfortunately, I am not part of all the contracts that I am discussing here. I have been a consultant for more than twenty-two years in various engineering aspects and I have no interest in the ones that I am discussing here.

Madam Chairperson: Well, you can continue.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Chairperson, the point I am trying to drive to is that the roads that I am talking about are really needed by the people of the Eastern Province.

Madam Chairperson, when it comes to trunk roads, the Government has proposed that it is going to implement or going to work on them using the public private procurement (PPP) model, which I welcome as an expert. However, my issue is that I doubt that most of the roads in the Eastern Provinces would qualify to be considered under the PPP model. The reason I am saying this is that I conduct a rough cost benefit analysis on one of the major roads that we have in the Eastern Province, the Great East Road.

Madam Chairperson, I looked at the traffic on various tollgates on the Great East Road. The tollgate that is in Chongwe has traffic which qualifies about 6,000 vehicles to pass through per day. About 1,000 vehicles pass through the tollgate between Nyimba and Petauke, and about 1,500 vehicles pass through the one in Chipata per day.

Madam Chairperson, as an expert, when I did a cost benefit analysis on this very important road, there is only one section which qualifies to be worked on under the PPP model. Therefore, when I look around and by standard as an expert, the minimum, with the current rate per kilometre which the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development announced to qualify under a PPP model, should be 6,000 vehicles per day. When I look around the Great East Road, the biggest road that we have, there is only one section which between Lusaka and Chongwe that qualifies to be worked on using the model. It leaves me and the people of the Eastern Province worried because, in short, it means that most of the roads in the Eastern Province that are in the category of trunk and main roads are not going to be worked on.

Madam Chairperson, my appeal to the Government is that it should have plan B on how it is going to work on the roads that the people from the Eastern Province very much want. It is not a hidden fact.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Continue, Mr J. Daka.

Mr J. Daka: I need to be protected from the hon. Minister of Education.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: No. Of course, you cannot cry. Just continue with your debate.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Chairperson, the people of the Eastern Province need the roads. It is not a hidden fact. As such, I appeal to the hon. Members on your right, the people in Government, to ensure that the demands of the people of the Eastern Province, especially on the very important aspect of development, should be met with an appropriate model. The Government should look outside the box and find other means of how it is going to finance the provision of road infrastructure in the Eastern Province.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

 

The Minister for Eastern Province (Mr P. Phiri): Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much. First of all, let me thank the hon. Members who have debated Eastern Province.

 

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members, can we have order. We want to hear what the hon. Minister for Eastern Province has for the province.

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, I will be very quick to respond to the concerns of the hon. Members who have debated.

Madam Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, I am still hearing some loud voices from that corner near the door (pointing to her left side) is it possible maybe you can even walk out and discuss outside we want to hear.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Interruptions

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, I really thank the hon. Members who have debated in a very good manner. These are: Hon. Munir Zulu from Lumezi Constituency, Hon. Brenda Nyirenda from Lundazi Constituency and Hon. J. Daka from Chadiza. How I wish my hero from Vubwi debated. It is unfortunate that we did not include him because we have serious concerns in that area and I am very much concerned about that area.

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, I am honoured to present to this august House the winding up policy statement to support the Estimates of Revenue and for the Office of the President Eastern Province Administration for the year 2023.

Madam Chairperson, in 2023 fiscal year, the Eastern Province Administration will continue to coordinate and monitor Government programmes and projects in the province. Let me assure the House that resources that have been taken closer to the people by the New Dawn Administration will be well managed and accounted for. We will closely monitor the utilisation of funds such as the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and any public resources brought to the province through various line ministries and other spending agencies. You can see the New Dawn Government Administration has demonstrated by bringing the K25.7 million to your constituencies. This is a step forward. This is what we did not see in the previous Government.

Madam Chairperson, good road infrastructure is key to attaining social economic development and reduces the cost of doing business. Even if some road contracts such the Chipata to Vubwi, Vubwi to Chadiza, Chadiza to Chama, Petauke, Chilongo and Lundazi, Chama to Matumbo road were terminated, the province has included all the mentioned roads in its 2023 work plan for the Road Development Agency (RDA) to consider doing them. We have an indication that funds have been secured for feasibility studies for 2023, for roads like Lundazi/ Chama to Matumbo. The province working with RDA will in 2023 also rehabilitate and maintain roads such as Katete/Chanida Road, Chipata/Lundazi Road and continue with rehabilitation of various feeder roads under the Rural Connectivity Project, with more districts coming on board such as Sinda and Katete. Let me assure this august House that the provincial administration will continue to lobby for more resources towards this important sector.

Madam Chairperson, there has been some concerns over the underutilisation of the Chipata/Muchinji rail line which links the Eastern Province to the Port of Nakala. Let me report that the major issue has been the absence of a dry port. To this effect, the RDA has secured K10 million in the 2023 Budget to contract a dry port in Chipata that will see the utilisation of the rail line.

Madam Chairperson, under the health sector, the provincial administration will continue to prioritise the availability of essential drugs in all health facilities. Currently, the availability of tracer drugs stands at 79 per cent and our goal is to reach 100 per cent. Priority will also be given to the completion of the construction of Nyimba, Chipata, Vubwi, Chama and Lundazi district hospitals, including the tworemaining mini-hospitals at Mwase-Mpangwe and Kazembe in Lumezi. Additionally, a number of staff houses will be constructed, and we will continue with the rehabilitation of a number of health facilities across the province. All this is meant to improve access to quality health services, especially in the rural communities.

Madam Chairperson, the provincial administration has continued to address the plight of the youth. In 2023, the province will continue to facilitate the recruitment and deployment of military personnel, teachers and health personnel just like it facilitated the recruitment and deployment of 1,127 health workers and 4,202 teachers which the province benefited from this year’s recruitment.

Madam Chairperson, in a quest to improve access to education at all levels, the provincial administration has continued to engage the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to actualise the construction of a public university in Katete District where land has already been secured. Working with the Ministry of Education, a number of schools will be rehabilitated across the province. The province will also continue with the construction of schools under theZambia Education Enhancement Project (ZEEP), with an addition of more than eight secondary schools. The province will also utilise the increased allocation to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to construct new infrastructure and upgrade existing education infrastructure across the province and procurement of desks.

Madam Chairperson, the Eastern Province administration attaches great importance to the agricultural sector as it is an agricultural province. Most of the farmers are subsistence farmers with 194,549 farmers benefiting from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). As at 13^thDecember, 2022, 157,543 farmers, representing 80.1 per cent, had deposited their K400 contribution, out of which 122,862 farmers representing 78 per cent had partially redeemed their inputs.

Madam Chairperson, following the presidential directive, the provincial administration will co-ordinate the construction of forty-five piped water schemes in institutions such as schools, health facilities and markets. Twenty-four piped stand-alone water schemes will also be constructed across the province. The provincial administration will also co-ordinate the construction of four new dams in Nyimba, Kasenengwa, Chasefu and Lundazi. Furthermore, it will rehabilitate three dams in Petauke and Chipata, and maintain fourteen dams across the province. Furthermore, the provincial administration will continue to co-ordinate the drilling and equipment of more than 400 boreholes and rehabilitation of 150 boreholes. This is in addition to a number of boreholes being drilled by the local authority under the CDF.

Madam Chairperson, under social protection, the provincial administration will co-ordinate the implementation of the Social Cash Transfer Programme in all the fifteen districts in the province. The provincial administration will also continue to co-ordinate the implementation of the Food Security Pack Programme in all the fifteen districts under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, which will see 39,494 vulnerable but viable households access inputs.

Madam Chairperson, the 2023 budget for the Eastern Province is K102,375,167 compared to K83,648,320 in 2022, representing a 22.5 per cent increase. Out of this amount, K79,617,583 has been allocated for personal emoluments and K22.8 million for non-personal emoluments.

Madam Chairperson, the strategic programmes that the province intends to implement in the 2023 financial year are those that focus on the provision of community and social services, natural resources management, economic development, local government services and management and support services. The main objective is to attain sustainable socio-economic development and uplift the well-being of the communities in the province.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

VOTE 96 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – K106,921,646)

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to debate. I just want to encourage the hon. Minister for Luapula Province to help us as hon. Members of Parliament on behalf of our communities. I speak on behalf of the community of Mwense.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that the hon. Minister works with other line ministries. When I look at the budget, I see that the K106,921,646 that has been provided in the budget for Luapula Province is a consumption budget. I do not think there is money for major investments. So, the only vehicle the hon. Minister has to develop the province is to continue to collaborate with the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Energy and other line ministries. Otherwise, as a province, we will remain behind.

Madam Chairperson, I want to look at one of the core components of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), which is economic transformation and job creation. I am sure by now, the hon. Minister for Luapula Province has toured the province. There is Mununshi Banana Scheme which was a dead parastatal. There is Kawambwa Tea Industries which was a dead parastatal. My encouragement to him is that he needs to work with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and other line ministries like the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development to continue growing those enterprises which were dead. They were privatised and died. Today, at least, there is a sigh of relief as the people of Luapula Province are able to see enterprises coming on board that will create jobs and wealth for our people in Luapula Province.

Madam Chairperson, these enterprises are still at an infant stage, and therefore, they require the support of the Government in terms of budget allocation. They require the Government to provide the staff needed to run these institutions which were dead. I hope the hon. Minister will be able to collaborate with his colleagues because there are plenty markets in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) where we can take the bananas. There are plenty markets in the DRC and elsewhere where we can export our tea. So, I hope that he will provide leadership in ensuring that investment in these enterprises brings jobs and wealth to the people of Luapula Province.

Madam Chairperson, I have spoken about Kawambwa Tea Industries and Mununshi Banana Scheme. Let also speak about the Luapula Exposition which the predecessor to the hon. Minister implemented. That is the only vehicle that the hon. Minister can use to attract investment. The hon. Minister for Luapula Province cannot rely on the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry as he is just one person. However, he can use the expositions that were introduced by the previous administration to attract investment in the various sectors in the province.

For example, he can liaise with the hon. Minister of Energy. Luapula has the potential for generation of energy. I listened to the statement that the hon. Minister of Energy delivered when he was talking about load shedding. He talked about diversifying the generation of power to the northern part of the country. Luapula has the potential to produce 1,000 MW on the Luapula River. We can attract investors from all over the world to go and invest in the Luapula River. Again, it will depend on how he will collaborate with his counterpart in the Ministry of Energy.

Madam Chairperson, the construction of any infrastructure to tap that potential 1,000 MW might take time. So, my humble plea to the hon. Minister for Luapula Province and to the hon. Minister of Energy is that there is an outstanding project, which is the Pensulo-Mansa Transmission Line that goes to the Mansa transmission line. The idea for this project was that the transmission line should get power from Pensulo going into Kasama going into Mporokoso and into Luapula. When you look at that stretch, you will see that it is a long stretch to transmit power and it is expensive for the Government. Therefore, the idea of embarking on a project from Pensulo to Mansa, which is almost 300 km, was that this is a much shorter and cheaper way to transmit power from Pensulo, which is a bulk distribution centre for the country into Luapula Province.We expect the hon. Minister to provide leadership because that contract was awarded many years ago, but obviously, it has its teething problems. He should provide leadership so that we can quickly begin to get power from the pensulo distribution system and we can begin to tap into the potential of the manganese. There is so much manganese in Luapula Province, but it has to be transported into Serenje for smelting. Why can we not have our own power transmission lines and generation systems so that the investment in the manganese sector can be tapped?

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I want to talk about the Ministry of Agriculture. Again, the hon. Minister for Luapula Province should collaborate with his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, Hon. Mtolo, who I believe is up to the task.

Madam Chairperson, our province depended on fishing. We no longer have fish in Luapula. The only avenue in terms of diversifying the income for our poor people is agriculture. Therefore, the hon. Minister should speak to his counterpart to ensure that our province is supported with the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) so that we can begin to diversify from fishing to agriculture.

Madam Chairperson, with that, I support this particular budget. It is a consumption budget, but one that the hon. Minister can use to liaise with other line ministries to bring investment and complete our secondary schools and health centres which were not completed.

Madam Chairperson, with that said, I thank you for the opportunity.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing the voice of Chiengeto debate the budget line for Luapula Province which is a place of abundance. Calocabusaka. We have too much water, so we are very clean people.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to just speak to this budget line. If you look at the statistics of Luapula Province, even the latest census we had, you will see that it is the most neglected province. It is the poorest province in Zambia, yet we have all that it takes to turn around even the economy of this country. We can talk of the minerals, water bodies and plentyof fertile land. We have all that. We are growing rice in LambweChomba which many people call Kaputa rice. The rice comes from LambweChomba. Soya beans is also grown and sugar canes can be grown in Chienge.

Madam Chairperson, the support that this particular province gets from the Central Governmentis quite worrying. Like the previous speaker has just said, I would like to urge the hon. Minister for Luapula Province to start pushing and make the province self-sustainable by creating its own wealth.

Madam Chairperson, if the Government is talking of decentralisation, it should not only focus on Constituency Development Fund (CDF). This is the only way each province can now start making its own money. We have so much potential. We should not even be importing salt from other countries becausewe have plenty of salt in Chienge. So, what I am trying to say is that the hon. Minister should take keen interest and engage hon. Members of Parliament from Luapula, especially myself and others to know more about the potential in each province. We have salt in Luapula, from which we can make a lot of money. I would also like to talk about how we can add value to our province.

Madam Chairperson, the President is on record of acknowledging how the Kazungula Border is making money and that within three years, we will be able to get back the money spent constructing the bridge.We have the Mwenda/KasomenoBridge whose completion everyone is looking forward to. That is the only way to connect Zambia to the other side of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC).There are many trucks at Mwenda/Kasomeno Bridge.That is money this country is losing out on.That could have been the pride of Luapula Province and by no, the Government would have been talking about increasing CDF from K25.7 million now to K35 million.

Madam Chairperson, with decentralisation, we need a lot of money. We are not doing everything at once because the money is still not enough.We are doing everything apart from main road construction.We are doing everything with the little money that we have. So, if this road and the bridge can be constructed, we will have all the trucks that are coming from the northern side passing though the side of Chiengeand from Luwingucoming to MwendaKasomeno, we will have money coming in our province. We will have more toll gates so that our roads can noweven be maintained.

Madam Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister to feel free.We are a family and the only province which does not have one proper road. It is a sad story.The roadfrom Tuta Bridge is so bad and impassable. I do not even know how my hon. Minister travels on that road.It is so bad up to Chienge. The roads are so bad.We drive by God’s grace. So, it is important that the hon. Minister, like Hon. Mabumba said, takes advantage to have another expo.We can find our own contractor for these roads and give him the toll gates to run. I do not know if in other countries, money collected from toll gates goes towards roads maintenance. Up to now,the Kashikishi/Lunchinda/ChiengeRoad has not been attended to.

Madam Chairperson, we have been having accidents since 1964. Recently, we had an accident involving somebody who was carrying Zam-papers and he perished. This is because of the kind of road we have.We need to also be part and parcel of those who are benefiting from our Government.

Madam Chairperson,we have Chipili District which is a new district andit has no hospital.There is a need for the hon. Minister for Luapula Province to look into that issue and come up with a strategy of how we can at least have a hospital that can help the people of Chipili District. I do not have much to say, except to appeal to this Government that we need proper infrastructure anda proper road network because we have so much potential. Many people want to come and set up mines in Luapula, but they cannot do so because of the bad road network.

Madam Chairperson, to wind up my debate, I inform the hon. Minister that we have Kalungushi Secondary School in Chienge, which is supposed to be a boarding school. It needs to be completed because it can assist and help all the children of Luapula Province.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I support this budget although I am not seeing what the hon. Member has mentioned. I am not seeing this budget covering any infrastructure, but we can put our heads together and bring investors in the province so that it can be the talk of the country. We are capable of doing that.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, just to amplify on what Hon. Katuta and Hon. Mabumba have already alluded to, on behalf of the people of Bangweulu, I will begin by simply indicating that all the roads that connect Luapula Province are in bad state as we are speaking.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Katuta has already alluded to the fact that Tuta Road is in a bad state. The pedicle road which connects Luapula Province and the Copperbelt Province is in a bad state too. The Samfya/Chifunabuli/Lubwe Road which should have connected the Northern Province through Luwingu is in a bad state.

So, I can simply say all the roads that connect Luapula Province to other provinces need to be worked on. Bearing in mind that Luapula Province has been earmarked as the entry point in terms of tourism in the northern region and to improve and escalate tourism activities in the province, we really need to work on the roads.

Madam Chairperson, in terms of connectivity, let me talk about the Mansa Airport. We need to upgrade the airport in order to enhance the tourism that I am talking about. As I am speaking, there is no lighting at Mansa Airport. So, you cannot have flights landing and taking off from Mansa after sunset. So, it is really important that the hon. Minister engages the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because I know he has put some funds aside in the budget to deal with aerodromes in the provincial headquarters. So, this could be an opportunity for us to engage the hon. Minister so that, at least, the lighting system can be done in Luapula Province.

Madam Chairperson, there are also other important roads that if were worked on, would be the quickest link from the Copperbelt through Ndola to Milenge. I am sure the hon. Minister is aware about the Kapalala/Sakanya Road, which is a shortcut, and the Mansa/Matanda Road is another important road in Mansa. Once these roads I am talking about are done, Luapula Province will be connected to other provinces and the movement of services and goods will be eased, and the economic emancipation of the province will probably be enhanced.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to echo what Hon. Mabumba spoke about regarding the Pensulo/Samfya Grid Extension. As of now, Luapula Province is one of the highest producers of manganese, but there is no single plant to convert manganese into finished products. All the manganese that is dug in Luapula Province is sent to Tanzania and Central Province where they have, at least, a stable supply of energy.

Madam Chairperson, another point is that even the new water plants that have been constructed in five districts in Luapula Province will not be able to give the required water because the voltage is very low. In addition, it is difficult to invest in Luapula Province and the investors who attended the Luapula Expo in 2017 and expressed interest to invest in Luapula Province cannot do so because of the energy problems. The energy portfolio as I have alluded is very low.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about fisheries. Most people in the province survive on fishing. Hon. Mabumba alluded to the fact that the fishes in natural water bodies have depleted due to the fact that the population of the people in the province has increased. Therefore, we encourage the hon. Minister to engage the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock to ensure that they find money to invest in fish restocking. Once the fish is restocked, we will see the fish in the natural water bodies increasing. I also encourage the hon. Minister to ensure that the breading areas in the province are protected because when they are protected, there will be no need for the fish ban.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to emphasise on the point that we need to ensure that the tourism potential that we have spoken about is enhanced. The House may be aware that Samfya has been opened up because the Ministry of Tourism has invested a lot of resources in the past. It is now time to ensure that Samfya becomes the entry point of the tourism in the Northern Circuit.

Madam Chairperson, these are some of the issues that I wanted to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister and we do not want to politic about development in the province. We will support the hon. Minister to ensure that the people of Luapula Province benefit from development.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, let me talk about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects, empowerment and loans from the CDF. I want the hon. Minister to come up with a provincial integrated development plan so that the projects which are implemented in the constituencies are integrated, and I will give an example. Most hon. Members, using the CDF empowerment funds, trained more them 200 drivers in the past one year. So, if you multiply fifteen constituencies in Luapula Province by 300 drivers who are trained in each constituency every year, you will discover that the youths will have nothing to do. So, it is very important that the developmental plans that hon. Members come up with are integrated with the others so that they are linked to the economy of the province, and as we empower the young people, the skills they acquire can be desired and they can get valuable jobs after training. We might reach a stage where we would have trained many young people, but they will have nothing to do. So, I encourage the hon. Minister to come up with a provincial integrated development plan, which can be linked to our developmental projects.

With those few words, Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity.

MrMuchimainterjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, are you debating?

Laughter

The Minister for Luapula Province (Mr Chilundika): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the winding up policy statement for Luapula Province. Before I proceed, allow me to thank the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to the debate on Vote 96. I thank them for indirectly confessing on the Floor of the House that the previous regime failed Luapula. The period of time under discuss would have helped to develop and repair the road network which has been out of order for a long period of time.

Madam Chairperson –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

I cannot even get what the hon. Minister is saying. Can we, please, have silence in the House.

Hon. Minister, please, concentrate on the Vote.

Mr Chilundika: Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Mabumba, Hon. Katuta and Hon. Kasandwe, and I assure them that the New Dawn Government is committed to continuing all projects that are developmental and will help all the Zambians. We have proved that looking at the number of projects that we found pending, and we ensured that we completed and handed them over. A practical example is the Katuba Mini Clinic in Mwense which was handed over on condition that we committed to continuity under development.

Madam Chairperson –

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

I only called upon Hon. Sampa to debate. Can we, please, give him time and space.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, as the precedent set in this House today, I am referring to the Commonwealth Practices that when rules are set for the House, we have to follow them through and through. It has been the standard that when provinces are being discussed, only the hon. Members from those provinces are allowed to debate. Are we,as a House, in order to allow the hon. Minister on the Floor, who is not a Member of Parliament for Luapula Province, to be discussing issues?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members, I think that is for people to smile.Otherwise, before he became a Minister the hon. Minister for Luapula Province, he was sworn in as a Member of Parliament. So, he is a qualified Member of Parliament.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I had called upon him to wind up debate, being Minister for Luapula Province.He is in order.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Chilundika: Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by advising hon. Members of Parliament from Luapula Province that the New Dawn Government has brought in huge intervention funds that you can use to address certain issues like the school that needs to be completed. We have brought in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Chairperson, to Madam Katuta, my dear hon. Member, I say,malazumawatazumawalyamankobola.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilundika: Work hard.

Hon. Members: Meaning!

The Chairperson: What is the meaning hon. Minister?

Mr Chilundika: Meaning, you need to have initiative and work hard lest you eat wild fruits.

Laughter

Mr Chilundika: There is CDF that has to be used to address the school. It is within that.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilundika: Madam Chairperson, I am greatly honoured to present to the august House the winding up policy statement in support of the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the President, Provincial Administration, Luapula Province, for the year 2023.

Rev. Katuta: Thank you for that.

Rev Katuta left the Chamber.

Hon. UPND Members: You can go.

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members: Lenshina!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Satanist!

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for Chienge, please move out of the House peacefully.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta resumed her seat.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for Chienge, you are disrupting the proceedings of the House. In fact, when you moved out, you also produced a word which is unparliamentary. The word ‘satanist’.

Rev. Katuta: They called me Lenshina.

The Chairperson: Is it possible to withdraw that word? Then you have a complaint –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Hon. Member for Chienge, if you have a complaint, please you can rise on a point of order but for the time being, can you, please withdraw the word ‘satanist’ so that we make progress. If you have a complaint, you will rise on a point of order.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word and replace it with non-believers.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Thank you.

The hon. Minister for Luapula Province will continue.

Ms Mulenga: Non-believers!

Mr Chilundika: Madam Chairperson, the mandate for the provincial administration is derived from Article 150 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No.2 of 2016 and Government Gazette Notice No.1123 –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister, there is a point of order.

Hon. Member for Chienge, what is your point of order?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, when I was about to leave the House, this is not the first time, this side of the hon. Members of Parliament from the UPND have called me the name of Lenshina and I have been ignoring that is why the utterance that came from me to call them satanist which you asked me to withdraw. According to our Standing Orders, we have language that we use on the Floor of the House. Are they in order to be calling me Lenshina?

Hon. UPND Members: Which Standing Order?

Rev. Katuta: According to our Standing Order No. 66, are they in order to be calling me Lenshina. I need your serious ruling otherwise, I have a very nice extra name for them.

The Chairperson: I have heard your point of order hon. Member for Chienge.

My ruling is that, hon. Members, us, as Presiding Officers, know your names and usually call you by your names when we are in Committees. In any other sessions, we call you by your constituencies so for hon. Members to starting give us other names, they are out of order. I think we all know that the hon. Member for Chienge is also Ms Katuta. We do not know the other name that she is talking about.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: So, if it is true, unfortunately, we cannot call the whole group to withdraw. If she had singled out a person, I was going to the hon. Member to withdraw that name. Since hon. Member you just said the people of the right, they are fond of calling you that. So, hon. Members on the right please, the hon. Member for Chienge is not Lenshina.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Can we please refrain. It is not a laughing matter because the people are listening out there.

Mr Kampyongo: Long live the Chair!

The Chairperson: Can we refrain from calling our colleague by that name. You were out of order.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Can we continue.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: On who?

The Chairperson: No, honestly speaking hon. Members, we cannot continue with points of order. We are being distracted.

Mr Mposha: On a very serious point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: No, let it come at another time not continuously. It will come at another time.

Hon. UPND Member: A point of order has to be contemporaneous.

The Chairperson: I will ask the hon. Minister for Luapula Province to continue.

Mr Chilundika: Madam Chairperson, the mandate for the provincial administration is derived from Article 150 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, No.2 of 2016 and the Government Gazette Notice No.1123 of 2021. This mandate is actualized through the following mission statement.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chilundika: To coordinate and …

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chilundika: …administer implementation of national policies –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minster. At the rate that we are moving, we are so slow. This usually forces me to stop the points of order because we are not making progress. There is an indication for a point of order from the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. What is your point of order, hon. Minister?

Mr Mposha: Madam Chairperson, I rare rise on points of order but I am extremely concerned and I rise on a very serious point of order, in accordance with Standing Order 66.

Madam Chairperson, we have been called satanists here and…

Interruptions

Hon. PF Members: She has withdrawn.

Mr Mposha: …that was replaced by non-believers.

Interruptions

Mr Mposha: I am addressing the Chair.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members. Can we give him chance and space.

Mr Mposha: I am addressing the Chair and not the gassers.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister, resume your seat.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for Kalulushi, we are in the Chamber not outside where we can just talk anyhow.

Ms Mulenga: My apologies. People died.

The Chairperson: No, you have to indicate hon. Member for Kalulushi if you want to say something. It is not open that you just stand up and talk. You have to indicate and be given chance to talk.

The hon. Minister for Water Development and Sanitation, you have used a word again which is unparliamentary, looking at the incidents that happened where nobody was caught gassing. I am sure the cases are still in court…

Ms Mulenga: People died mwebantu.

The Chairperson: …and some people lost their lives. Is it possible that you can raise on a point of order that is simple and straightforward without creating another point of order on the words that you are going to use.

Mr Mposha: Well guided. I will simplify it.

Madam Chairperson, I am extremely concerned because the people out there are watching us and listening, and to called non-believers.The last time I checked, the hon. Members on your right are all fully dedicated Christians. I take great exception that we could be called non-believers. I seek your ruling whether the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge is in order to refer to us, hon. Members of the right, as non-believers.

I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Hon.Members, thank you. I think that issue was dealt with. Although, hon. Member for Chienge, that name again, is not so user friendly. It is provoking, in some way or the other, to be called a non-believer when you are a believer. Is there any other word that you can use hon.Member?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, A non-believer is a non-believer. Maybe, they do not–

The Chairperson: I did not ask you define that term. I am just asking if there is a better word you can use.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, another word–

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, is it possible for you to withdraw that word?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, what do I replace it with?

The Chairperson: If you cannot find another word, then just withdraw it.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, they have not withdrawn what they called me. In fact,it is Hon.Mposha who called me Lenshina, ...

Laughter

Rev. Katuta: ... on top of that, when somebody says you are a non-believer, it means you can be a non-believer maybe in a certain political policy.

The Chairperson: You can resume your seat hon. Member for Chienge.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Muchima interjected.

The Chairperson:Hon.Minister for Lands and Natural Resources,can we have order!

Hon.Members, it is very important that you avoid using unparliamentary words. These are words that are provoking and we know them because these are our own Standing Orders. If we say something is unparliamentary, then it is unparliamentary because it is provoking. So, in that case, hon.Member for Chienge, I am telling you that the word you have used sounds unparliamentary because it is provoking. Is it possible for you to withdraw that word so that we make progress?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, this word ‘unbeliever’ – I am failing to understand.

Hon. Government Member: Just withdraw.

Rev. Katuta: Okay, I withdraw it and replace it with it faithless.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, is it possible for you to also withdraw the word ‘gassers’?

Mr Mposha: Madam Chairperson, I thought I had taken your well-deserved guidance.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, we are not making progress. I am going to ask some people to leave because they are continuously talking, like the hon. Member for Kalulushi. I think we have had a lot of talking from you. I ask you to leave the House. We want progress.

Ms Mulengaleft the Assembly Chamber.

The Chairperson: No more points of order. I am going to ask the hon. Minister for Luapula to continue with the statement.

Mr Chilundika: Madam Chairperson, Luapula Provincial Administration will undertake to implement its mandate through strengthening co-ordination in the implementation of national policies and developmental programmes on behalf of sector ministries in the province, enhancing investments in provinces priority sector such as agriculture, tourism, and infrastructure and by ensuring increased access to Government quality service in the province.

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, the province had a total of K85,090,677 out of which K66,404,578 was for personal emoluments whilst K18,686,099 was for non-personal emoluments. Out of the total non-personal emolument budget, a total of K18,641,878.24 had been released by the Treasury representing 99.8 per cent budget release.

Madam Chairperson, permit me to now highlight some notable achievements regarding programme performance during the year 2022. In the area of non-tax revenue generation, Luapuala Province raised K2.7 million as at the end of third quarter 2022. This is against the projected annual target of K5.5 million. The main contributors to non-tax revenue continue being forestry, land and survey services.

Under economic diversification and job creation, the provisional administration continues to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of various economic programmes and projects in the province. Some of which include the following:

1. the demarcation of 192 farm plots at Kapwenge Resettlement Scheme in Chipili District;
2. recommendation of 255 farm plot owners in various resettlement schemes in the province for issuance of title deeds;
3. training of 219 youths in entrepreneurship skills;
4. training of 266 youths in the province in various vocational skills; and
5. initiation of fifty-two youths projects in Manse, Mwansabombwe, Milenge, Chipili, Nchelenge among other several economic diversification interventions.

Madam Chairperson, to improve human and social development in order to reduce poverty and vulnerability, the province managed to reach 125,487 beneficiaries under the Social Cash Transfer Scheme out of the target of 101,585 representing an increase of 23,901 beneficiaries. To mitigate climate induced poverty, the province is implementing various interventions among them dredging of water channels construction of the embarkment and support to communities on various livelihood projects. Additionally, 95 ha of land was cleared in preparation for planting of tree seedlings whilst two community forests, namely Kabembe in Kawambwa and Kanyembo in Nchelenge were gazzeted and agreements entered into with Department of Forests and the respective communities.

Madam Chairperson, to promote improved participation in the governance of the country, the province among other things under took to sensitise three chiefdoms, namely Kasomalwela, Katuta Kampemba and Mushota on the establishment and registration of chiefdom trusts. Additionally, the province also distributed village registers to forty-nine villages. The province further continued the construction of chief’s palaces for Senior Chief Mununga, Chief Munkata and Chieftainess Kanyembo.

Madam Chairperson, the 2023 budget has been prepared in line with Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) and the Vision 2030. The 2023 Budget Estimate and Expenditure for the Office of the President, Provincial Administration, Luapula Province is K106.9 million compared to the 2022 budget of K85 million. This represents an increase of 20.5 per cent.

Madam Chairperson, in preparing the 2023 budget estimates, the province was guided by the draft of the 8NDP and the Vision 2030, with focus on the following:

1. community development and social services;
2. natural resource management;
3. economic development;
4. local government service; and
5. management support services.

Madam Chairperson, the Community Development and Social Services Programme has been allocated a total of K23.3 million to facilitate the training of youths in entrepreneurship, women empowerment, child advocacy programmes and the promotion of national values and principles, among others.

Madam Chairperson, for Natural Resource Management, K16.9 million has been allocated. This will cater for forest protection and management, rehabilitation and maintenance of boreholes and dams as well as weather forecasting and early warning.

Madam Chairperson, the Economic Development Programme has been allocatedK16.8 million. It will cater for land administration, resettlement scheme development, enforcement of labour laws and maintenance of public buildings.

Madam Chairperson, regarding Local Government Services, K3.5 million will cater for supervision of local authorities, spatial planning and development control.

Madam Chairperson, a total of K46.4 million will go towards management and support services. It will cater for development coordination, human resources management, financial management and publicity of government programmes.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, the Luapula Province Administration will endeavour to contribute to the attainment of the New Dawn Government’s aspirations and Vision 2030.

Madam, I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this august House to support the 2023 Budget Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the President Provincial Administration, Luapula Province, as a presented.

Madam Chairperson, may I thank the President of the Republic of Zambia for ensuring that as we deal these issues together with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we are not segregating any sector of the country.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: We now move to Vote 97 – Office of the President – North Western Province. I have a list with me. We will start with Hon. Katakwe, Hon. Kambita and Hon. Samakayi.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East) Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this chance, on behalf of the people of the North-Western Provincewhich is the new Copperbelt, to support Vote 97 – North-Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, I am excited and glad that I can stand to support Vote 97. Firstly, I thank our hon. Minister for the North-Western Province. We have good leaders in the North-Western Province and they deserve our support.

Madam, we see in our provision that, indeed, the provincial administration has a mandate to provide administrative services and strategies to ensure that our province develops. In that mandate, we see infrastructure development, resettlement schemes, mining development, tourism, promotion of agro-forestry and many other areas. However, I will delve into a few so that I leave to my colleagues to touch others.

Madam Chairperson, to begin with, the North-Western Province is vast. If you move all the way from Chavuma, by the time you get into the Copperbelt Province, you would have covered almost 1,000 km. That is just one province. This actually raises a concern for our province. If we look at contributions to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), we should be the second or third highest contributor. However, when you look at the allocation that we receive as the new Copperbelt, it leaves much to be desired. So, our province is imploring our hon. Minister to make sure that the areas that we are going to highlight are noted and the proposals seriously implemented.

Madam Chairperson, let me look at trunkroads and feeder roads. The people of the North-Western Province lament the state of the road from Solwezi to Mwinilunga, Solwezi to Kipushi Border, the Manyinga/Mwinilunga/Jimbe Road, the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/MumbezhiRoad, and the Kaoma/Kasempa/Mwinilunga/Kolwezi Road. These are key economic roads. So, the people of the North-Western Province are saying, “If these roads can open up, indeed, we the people of the North-Western Province are going to see meaningful development in our province.”

So, we implore the hon. Minister to ensure that in his term of office, under the good leadership of His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, we see fruits in the province where theUnited Party for National Development (UPND) was born. The people of the North-Western Province should see why 95 per cent of them voted in support of this Government. Can they see the fruits of their labour?

Madam Chairperson, let me also comment on the bridges. We lag behind on crossing points. We are not able to access certain areas vis-à-vis the Zambezi West Bank. You cannot cross it. You need to use either canoes or a pontoon. Therefore, the people of the North-Western Province are saying that can they, at least, have bridge. We can even have acrow bridges on various crossing points. We do not want to see, this time next year, people talking about bridges in the North-Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, on education, the people of the North-Western Province are saying they have lagged behind in education and that, in the New Dawn Government, they need a university of science and technology. The resources that come from the North-Western Province are so huge that they cannot go without a university or a university college.

Madam Chairperson, the World Bank allocated schools to the North-Western Province, but it is now fifteen to sixteen months down the line and we have not seen any groundbreaking done in any of the areas where the schools need to be. So, the people of the North-Western Province are saying, as they support Vote 97 that they be given those secondary schools so that their children and the people in the province can be educated.

Madam Chairperson, on health, the Zambia Medicines & Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) hub that was started has stalled. Can it be revamped so that ZAMMSA starts procuring medicine for the people of the North-Western Province? As you know, where mining development is thriving, there is need to enhance the health sector. So, we need that hub to be revamped.

Madam Chairperson, on the mining sector, people have really lamented. Why is Kasenseli Gold Mines still closed? Is it that the people of the North-Western Province are not speaking enough? They say politicians respond where there is noise, but the people of the North-Western Province have talked about the Kasenseli Gold Mine, alas it is still closed. Could we see to it that in the next two or three months, the Kasenseli Gold Mine is opened because we are sleeping on money that is supposed to bring development to the North-Western Province. So, as we support the hon. Minister, could he please look into that. We also need to look into the oil and gas exploration.

Madam Chairperson, on tourism, if you look at the influx of people into the North-Western Province, you will realise that we need infrastructure development in the area of tourism. For instance, the Solwezi Airport it is so small. Let us see to it that an airport of international standard is developed in the province.

Madam, not only that, but also, Ikeleng’i is the source of the Zambezi River. In Mushidamo, we have the source of the Kafue River. So, the hon. Minister for the North-Western Province needs to work together with the hon. Minister of Tourism to make sure that these sites are enhanced and improved on, including their access roads so that we are able to enhance tourism. People could be going to see the source of the Zambezi River and the source of the Kafue River, which are key areas in the North-Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, the people are saying the province is too big. Why could we not consider, if possible, dividing it so that we can have double allocation.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 17hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEESin the

Chair]

Mr Katakwe: Madam Chairperson, the people of Solwezi and the North-Western Province need at least two provinces, more constituencies and Members of Parliament, and they will see development in the province.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on Vote 97 – Office of the President – North-Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, a rough estimate indicates that as a province, we sit at third as contributors to the National Gross Domestic Product (GDP). At some point, we used to be fourth, but we have jumped to third before Lusaka and the Copperbelt. That goes to say that the North-Western Province is a wealthy province, and adds a lot of wealth to the nation. However, what takes us aback, notwithstanding that position, is that we sit second from the bottom in terms of infrastructure development after Luapula, which is also underdeveloped. So, this debate will be anchored on infrastructure development. I will talk more about infrastructure development because this is what we lack.

Madam Chairperson, it has been a long time since a new hospital was built in the North-Western Province. Of course, recently, one was built in Mufumbwe, but this has not happened in many districts. You have heard me debate passionately about the Zambezi District Hospital. Thankfully, the New Dawn Administration has remembered us, and the hon. Minister should take note of that. Zambezi District Hospital will have to be built next year; we got a Government assurance. We also expect a new district hospital in Mwinilunga, and new districts like Mushindamo also need district hospitals. There are no district hospitals in some districts, and there are just health centres and health posts. We need district hospitals in each and every district, and those that exist need to be rehabilitated.

Madam Chairperson, continuing with the health sector, some health posts, out of the 650 health posts to be constructed from the loan from India, were not finished in some places. For example, Zambezi was given six, but only four were built and commissioned. There is still one pending at Kasombu and in Katontu. In many other places in the province, health posts have not been completed. So, the hon. Minister should take note of that, and they need to be completed.

Madam Chairperson, let me come to school infrastructure. Most boarding secondary schools are dilapidated. You have heard me debate passionately about Zambezi Boarding Secondary School here. It is as if you are coming from a war situation. Dormitories have blown off roofs and this is the same even at Mwinilunga Boarding Secondary School, and many such schools which were built a long time ago, around 1965. The hon. Minister of Education is hearing me. We expect the North-Western Province to benefit from the 120 schools. I know there will be some, but I am talking about those important schools like a full boarding school. Let us not just be propagating the benefits of giving bursaries to children without putting in place facilities to learn from. However, boarding schools cannot be built from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). It is too meagre for that.

Madam Chairperson, let me now come to trunk roads. The Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbezhi Road, which is always talked about by our colleagues from the Western Province, is very important, and it needs to be worked on. The Kaoma/Kasempa Road is another truck road which needs to be worked on, but I will bring another dimension to that. The Kaoma/Kasempa Road is very important. Now, listen to this. The Lumwana/Kambimba Road has been advertised to be worked on under a public-private partnership (PPP). However, we would not have achieved anything by working on the Lumwana/Kambimba if we do not work on the Kaoma/Kasempa Road because that is the same route which leads to Walvis Bay. So, if we work on the Lumwana/Kambimba Road, we will also need to work on the Kasempa/Kaoma Road as a trunk road.

Madam Chairperson, another trunk road which needs to be worked on is the Solwezi/Kipushi Road and it is a very economical road. Further, the road from Mutanda to Chavuma needs to be rehabilitated, and it is now getting dilapidated. We do not want it to degenerate to the level of the Kisasa/Mwinilunga Road, extending to Ikeleng’i. The Kisasa/Mwinilunga/Ikeleng’i Road is almost impassable and there is almost a revolt coming from that side.

Madam Chairperson, I do not want to hide anything from you. The people of the North-Western Province brought in the New Dawn Administration and they are very expectant. They are not playing about this, and they are demanding what they deserve. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga will passionately debate about this, but I wanted to emphasise this point. It is a serious situation. It looks like the Mutanda/Zambezi/Chavuma Road is also getting to a level where it is degenerating, and we need to attend to it.

Madam Chairperson, feeder roads also never received any attention. You heard from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development’s pronouncements how the North-Western Province received zero allocation of rural roads by the previous Government, these people here (pointing at hon. PF Members). They did not pay attention to any feeder roads. Therefore, it means that the North-Western Province must be a priority in anything to do with feeder roads because it received nothing from the previous regime.

Madam Chairperson, I am also aware that there are discussions, and the World Bank has approved some funds to work on some roads. The Kabompo/Kayombo/Nyakulenga Road up to Zambezi is included in that, and I also heard the road from Manyinga to Mwinilunga. We thank the hon. Minister and he should ensure that these roads that have been approved are worked on. The Manyinga/Mwinilunga Road and the Zambezi/Kabompo Road via Kayombo, Dikolonga, Nyakulenga and Palata need to be worked on. We also expect the Kasempa/Kelongwa Road to be worked on under these feeder roads. We expect the road from Zambezi to Mpidi to Chizozo to be considered at some point, funds permitting. If it will be extended, that needs to be taken care of. Otherwise, the feeder roads everywhere are very bad and working on them will foster economic development in the North-Western Province. That is why I said that my debate on the province’s Vote will be anchored on infrastructure.

Madam Chairperson, I think I have covered enough on the infrastructure that needs attention and I hope that the hon. Minister considers the submissions coming from the people of Zambezi and other constituencies of the North-Western Province.

I thank you.

Mr Samakayi(Mwinilunga): Madam Chairperson, I am a bearer of a message from the people of the North-Western Province and they have asked me to speak passionately about the province.

Madam Chairperson we have suffered injustices from the previous Governments and that is why –

Madam Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

This is just a reminder that I had made a ruling that we would not have any more points of order because we are not making any progress.

Mr Samakayi: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the people of the North-Western Province have suffered injustices from the previous Governments, save for the period when the late President Mwanawasa and the late President Banda served the country. That is when we had the Kansanshi Copper Mines, Lumwana Copper Mines and Kalumbila Mines opened and the M8 Road worked on. He put three contractors to work on the road. After that, we have not seen any meaningful development from the previous Governments. We have been denied districts, constituencies, hospitals and roads. That is the reason the people of the North-Western Province opted to support the United Party for National Development (UPND) because they saw that it was a safety net against the injustices that we suffered.

Madam Chairperson, let me say to the New Dawn Government that the North-Western Province is a speck in its eyes.  It is biblical that you must remove the speck in your eye before you remove the one in your neighbour’s eye. So, the New Dawn Government must not be ashamed to prioritise the North-Western Province because we suffered injustices because of supporting the New Dawn Government. 

Madam Chairperson, there are four roads that are commercially viable, and these are: Solwezi/Kipushi Road, Mutanda/Mwinilunga/Jimbe Road, the road from Kasempa up to Mumbwa and the road from Lumwana West up to Kambimba. These roads must be worked on and they will add value to the Treasury of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I will specifically talk about Mwinilunga. Today buses have stopped going to Mwinilunga. There are no public buses going there because the road is bad. The people are not happy. I will be going on that road next week. The Government should not take anyone to mine gold in Mwinilunga until the road is worked on. The road must be worked on otherwise, we will not allow anyone to go and mine gold there. We will not allow that. In the first place, what the Government can do for now is put remedial measures to cover the potholes on road. Otherwise, we do not feel like we are part of the country. We do not feel it. The Government has denied us everything regarding development.

Madam Chairperson, the M8 Road is wearing away. Soon, we will have no roads in the North-Western Province. All the roads that were tarred will have no tarmac because of the bad maintenance culture that we have in the country. You are watching the road wearing away. In the end, we will have no road.

Madam Chairperson, regarding delimitation, again, I want to passionately debate the issue of constituencies. All the provinces have more districts and constituencies, but we only have twelve constituencies and eleven districts. What is the matter? Where is the problem? Kisikamani?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Oder, hon. Member!

Mr Samakayi: Madam Chairperson, it means ‘what is the problem?’ I am a very effective person but I want to tell you that Mwinilunga is just too big. It has six chiefdoms and it is three times the size of Luapula Province. Mwinilunga, Kasempa, Mufumbwe, Kalumbila are big constituencies. They have to be delimited. In fact, even the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has no impact in Mwinilunga because the population is huge and the land mass is big and when you share it, it has no impact. In some constituencies, the cooperatives are getting K40,000 each. In Mwinilunga you cannot do that. If we were to give K40,000 per cooperative, it means that we would take six years but when we brought it down to K10,000 per cooperative, people are complaining because it was not making any impact. So, we are not benefiting as much as other constituencies from the increased CDF.

Interruptions

Mr Samakayi: I will not cry. I want us to get what we deserve, especially that we supported the New Dawn Government. The New Dawn Government must not be shy. It should prioritise and start with the North-Western Province. Yes! It should start with the North-Western Province.

Interruptions

Mr Samakayi: Madam Chairperson, I want to repeat that from today, there will be no public transport using the Mwinilunga Road. Water, water!

Laughter

Mr Samakayi: There is no public transport going to Mwinilunga. There are no buses. It means that people are getting upset. So, the Government must find money. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning must find money so that we can cover the bad areas of the road so that people can move freely.

Madam Chairperson, when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government took over power in 2011, it found that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government had contracted Inyatsi Construction Limited to rehabilitate that road but when it took over the Government it terminated the contract. That is why when you are going Mwinilunga, the stretch from Chiseña to Minyanya is a good. The injustices that I am talking about mostly came from the PF. They have no social shame to talk about the UPND. I think let us do better. Let us do more than what those people did. That is why they were flashed out of the Government. We want to remain in power. The Government should start from Mwinilunga.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: That was so passionate.

The Minister for the North-Western Province (Mr Lihefu): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity granted to debate the budget on behalf of the people of the North-Western Province. Let me also thank the hon. Members of Parliament from the North-Western Province who have ably debated and those who have debated in silence and supported the 2023 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the President, North-Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, I am grateful that the comments which came from the hon. Members are genuine, and I adopt their debate as mine.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lihefu: As the New Dawn Government, under the leadership of His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, resources will be distributed equally in all ten provinces, including the North-Western Province.

Budget Performance Review for 2023

Madam Chairperson, the 2023 provincial administration budget has been prepared in line with the 2023 National Budget, whose theme is “Stimulating Growth for Improved Livelihoods.”

2022 Budget Performance

Madam Chairperson, the 2022 budget for the provincial administration for the North-Western Province is K80,569,148, out of which K61,715,880 was allocated for personal emoluments, while K18.9 million was for operations and programmes. As at September, 2022, the province was funded a total of K15.7 million, representing 83.1 per cent of the total allocation.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to highlight the major achievements for the year 2022:

1. contribution to the national Treasury of K25.4 million in non-tax revenue against the set target of K28 million;
2. a total of 350 farmers were allocated plots in Maheba Resettlement Scheme in Kalumbila District;
3. 106 boreholes have been drilled in various districts such as Kalumbila, Zambezi, Manyinga and many more;
4. construction of Kalene Hills Fruits Company in Mwinilunga was completed and commissioned by His Excellency, President of the Republic of Zambia;

Proposed Budget for Provincial Administration for 2023

Madam Chairperson, the proposed budget allocation for the year 2023 is K102,563,027, of which personal emoluments is K80,195,419 and non-personal emoluments is K22.4 million. The 2023 proposed budget for the provincial administration has been adjusted upwards by about K22 million compared to the 2022 budget.

Madam Chairperson, in 2023, the provincial administration will prioritise the implementation of programmes in line with the core Public Service delivery mandate consistent with the Eight National Development Plan (8NDP). The focus for 2023 will be infrastructure development, which some hon. Members have highlighted, in resettlement schemes, tourism development and promotion, agro-forestry, enterprise development, social protection and community development, water resource development, governance, youth, sport and child development.

Madam Chairperson, the provincial administration, in 2023, is targeting to achieve the following:

1. raise K35.3 million in non-tax revenue;
2. reach 77,500 vulnerable people on Social Cash Transfer Programme; and
3. undertake eighteen beekeeping training and support twenty-two beekeeping groups. As you are aware, the North-Western Province is known for organic honey from Kabompo and Mwinilunga districts;

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, the provincial administration will endeavour to contribute to the attainment of the New Dawn Government aspiration and the Vision 2030. I, therefore, urge my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to support the 2023 budget estimates of revenue and expenditure for the Office of the President, Provincial Administration, North-Province as presented.

Madam Chairperson, as I leave the podium, allow me to thank His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, on behalf of the people of the North-Western Province for unlocking the mining sector. Had it not been for him, these three big mines which sit in the North-Western Province would have gone.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 98 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – K113,189,519)

The Chairperson: I have a list before me which has Mr Kamboni, Mr Michelo and Mr Mulunda. We will start with Mr Kamboni.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. The Southern Province people are people who burn their fingers to produce the food that we eat. They burn their fingers so we can eat all the sausages and meat that we eat, yet under the Patriotic Front (PF), this is the group of people that was marginalised, abandoned and forgotten. That should never happen again.

Madam Chairperson, we learn here that the wealth of a country does not reside in the abundance of its natural resources but in the wisdom of the people. The Southern Province is a rich province. The human resource is the right one; hardworking. However, each time we ask for something, they say “No. Do not, because the President comes from there.” No. we are also going to ask like anybody else.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: That narrative, we do not want it. When seven people from different tribes are appointed and one person is tonga, you say that is tribalism. That narrative should stop. We are equally Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: That should stop. We want equity. We were never promoted and we were not employed because of where we came from and because of the United Party for National Development (UPND). Now, we equally need to get things like everybody else. All we are asking for is equity. So, when we say we need a road, do not tell us other stories. No. we will like anybody else.

Madam Chairperson, in the Southern Province, we do not have a university. At least, the Western Province has a plot and a name of a university. We do not have.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: We do not have any university, hon. Minister of Education. We are not shy about it, we need a university also in the Southern Province. Even in the plans of all the Governments that came before this one, it is not written anywhere, but we need a university like yesterday.

Madam Chairperson, Choma is the headquarters of the province but it has no airport. We need an airport. I should be able to fly like others do when they go to Solwezi. Why can I not fly to Choma and keep time? That is communication. Hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, make sure that we have an airport.

Madam Chairperson, we need to change the narrative. This idea of always doing things in the same way should change. Why should we export maize? Why should tomatoes rot in the country for a lack of market? We need to add value. As long as we do not industrialise our country, we will never be a developed nation. We cannot concentrate only on trade. We now need to start producing things that have value.

 

Madam Chairperson, we need a plant that makes tomato sauce in the Southern Province. The hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry should get his books ready and bring a plant.

Madam Chairperson, in the Southern Province, we have so many animals. We can have canned beef.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, why should we get bull brand canned beef from outside the country when we have all the animals; the brahman,bonsmara,boran and so on and so forth?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, this is an opportunity for the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development to leave a mark. We need to cane beef in the province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, we grow a lot of maize in the Southern Province, as I said. Why should we export maize? Can we not make cornflakes? We need cornflakes. We just need simple machines. We have all these ministries. We need a machine that makes cornflakes in the Southern Province. The hon. Minister should bring the machine, and we shall provide the maize.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: We also need a lot of things in the province. We want to add value because when do, we create jobs.

Madam Chairperson, if we export raw materials, we export jobs. We produce copper, but we cannot make any products from it. We give jobs to other people. We have the opportunity. For the New Dawn Government, the sky is the limit. Those who are charged with the responsibility can do a lot because there is good will from the President. There is rule of law. There are opportunities. So, let us take these opportunities and bring all these things to the Southern Province.

Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Information and Media for the provision of the Frequency Modulation (FM). We never had it, but we now do. She enabled us to access to the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), and we are very grateful.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, there is another thing that we need. We have minerals in Mapatizya. However, there is literally no road to Mapatizya. When the Patriotic Front (PF) was in the Government, we were told that the road would be upgraded to bituminous level, but nothing happened. That was the story of yesterday. The hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development should note that we need the works on that road to be done quickly.

Madam Chairperson, the road to Sinazongwe is almost being cut into two parts. I am sure that by March, if it rains very well, the Sinazongwe Road will be cut into two parts. To those who are responsible, let me say that it is a state of emergency. Can we have that road worked on?

Madam Chairperson, there are a number of gravel roads from Chikanta to Siachitema, where we have the largest number of farmers, but one cannot go there, even using an Ox-Cart. We also need those who are responsible to make sure that our gravel roads are maintained. That way, we will give people all the food that is needed, in and outside the country.

Madam Chairperson, the Muntanga Request Hospital is incomplete. It was built, but does not have a mortuary. It was built and opened under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government without a mortuary and an X-ray machine. So, we are now asking for that hospital to have a mortuary and to be completed. That can be done.

Madam Chairperson, now, under the livestock sector, we can have clean zones for animals which are free from disease. If we have clean zones, we can export our meat to the European Union (EU). Botswana and South Africa export meat to the EU. Why are we failing? When are we going to aim higher so that we can have our meat exported and prices going up? All we need is to have clean zones where they are no diseases. We should change the format whereby, we can even use brand marks. We can say this area in Namwala is a clean zone that does not have disease and we can export animals outside the country. That is home work for the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock.

Madam Chairperson, we are very grateful for the works the hon. Minister for the Southern Province is doing. We know that he is doing the Strategic Plan. We want it so that we can show off to all these people. That way, we can go to the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and other ministries and say, “Here is your homework.” We need the Strategic Plan very quickly, and I know the hon. Minister for the Southern Province is working on it. We are very grateful.

Madam Chairperson, thank you very much.

Mr Amutike: Continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Bweengwa Constituency an opportunity to debate Vote 98 – Southern Province.

Madam Chairperson, to start with, let me just adopt the debate of my brother, Hon. Kamboni, as mine.

Madam Chairperson, the Southern Province was heavily neglected by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. It was in a terrible situation where all the roads which were dilapidated, maybe, for twenty years previously, were never worked on. It was in a terrible situation.

Madam Chairperson, let me say to the hon. Minister for the Southern Province that one of biggest challenges that we have in the province is roads. The road which connects Monze to Chivuna needs to be tarred. The road which connects Magoye to Chivuna also needs urgent attention. The road which comes from Mumbwa to Itezhi-tezhi also needs urgent attention. There is this road which connects Namwala and Itezhi-tezhi where we need a bridge and not a pontoon. Sometimes, many people get stranded in the evening. They have to cross before 2000 hours. If they reach after that, they cannot cross to Itezhi-tezhi or to Namwala. We need to be connected. There is also this road from Bindilwe in Bweengwa Constituency via Simanansa, Katimba and all the way up to Pemba. That road needs immediate attention.

Madam Chairperson, schools in themajority of constituencies in the Southern Province have no electricity. We are asking the hon. Minister to work with the hon. Minister of Energy to enable us also to have electricity in our schools. Currently, pupils should be learning computer science, but there is no electricity. They have many challenges in learning computer science. The hon. Minister should help us on that issue.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue which we are also facing, especially in Monze, is the lack of a district hospital. The hospital which we are depending on is a mission hospital which is run by the Catholic Church. So, we request our hon. Minister to work with the hon. Minister of Health to ensure that we have a district hospital in Monze.

Madam Chairperson, again, just there in Monze Central Constituency, there is no Government secondary school. The two secondary schools, Rusangu and St. Canisius, are run by the Catholic Church. So, we are asking the hon. Minister to give us one secondary school in Monze Central Constituency.

 

Madam Chairperson, in Bweengwa Constituency, we only have one secondary school; Monze Secondary School, and it is not enough to cater for the pupils in the constituency.

Madam Chairperson, if it is possible, could the hon. Minister, please, liaise with the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock so that we can also have a specialised college in hands-on practical training for our farmers. This will enable our farmers to start practicing new technologies of looking after their animals. The college is very important for our farmers, especially those who never went up to Grade 12. We need them to be trained so that they can start practicing new ways of farming.

Madam Chairperson, most of the dams in the Southern Province are in dilapidated state. The walls of the majority of the dams in Bweengwa, Monze Central, Magoye, Mazabuka, Moomba and Itezhi-tezhi are about to collapse. As I talk, some are even leaking.

Madam Chairperson, let me now come to the dip tanks. There are a few dip tanks which are in operational in the Southern Province right now, and I ask the hon. Minister to rehabilitate those that are not operational.

Madam Chairperson, coming to milk processing, it is important to have a milk processing plant in the Southern Province, it being the highest producer of milk in this country. So, we request the Government to put up a milk processing plant in the province and the hon. Minister should work with the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock so that the milk produced in Choma, Namwala, Bweengwa, Monze, Mazabuka and Kalomo can be taken to a central place and can be packaged, the way the people in Lusakawho are not even producing enough milk, are packaging it. However, most of the milk comes from the Southern Province, and let us put extra energy on that issue.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the tannery. When we slaughter animals, the skins are exported to places like Ethiopia; imagine. We are failing to treat our own animal skins here and to even make shoes from the skin of the animals which are slaughtered within the country. So, the Government should put up a tannery in the Southern Province, especially in Namwala.

Madam Chairperson, let me come to health facilities. Many health facilities in the Southern Province are not electrified. Further, out of the 650 health posts which were being talked about on a daily basis on the Floor of this House during the time of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government’s rule, we never received not even a single one in Bweengwa Constituency. The hon. Minister of Health should help us and, maybe, the Government can construct at least ten health posts in Bweengwa so that the people can also benefit.This thing of always saying that we come from a province where the President comes from must come to an end. We are one, and we must be treated equally. We have been neglected for so long.

Madam Chairperson, the majority of citizens in the Southern Province who are above forty and fifty years do not have National Registration Cards (NRCs), and we have been neglected for so long. Right now, when somebody goes to get an NRC, he/she is told that he/she is above age. We request the hon. Minister to ensure that whether somebody is 100 years, he/she must be given an NRC. We do not care about the age because we have been neglected for so long and these people (referring to hon. PF Members) did it deliberately. We were neglected and they never gave us NRCs, deliberately, so that they could win an election. We are asking whoever is managing the NRC Office that whether somebody is 102 years, that person should be given an NRC without telling him/her that he/she is over age. We want NRCs, and an NRC is an important document for any citizen of this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to say a few words. I hope everything that we have discussed this afternoon will be actualised by the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the New Dawn Government. The Government should not neglect any province in the country. Let it take development to all the ten provinces without looking at the tribe.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much.

Madam Chairperson, I will start with road infrastructure. The roads in Gwembe Valley such as the Bottom Road have been neglected, and this road starts from Mikango Barracks to Chiawa and Chirundu and continues in Siavonga, Gwembe and Sinazongwe up to Mapatizya, and it has not received the attention it requires from the Government. I remember that the Government had started constructing the road from Leopard Hill to Chiawa, but after the demise of President MichealSata, the road works stalled, and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government did not pay attention to it.

Madam Chairperson, like I have said, we have been neglected. However, the Bottom Road is an economical road that we can use when we are doing different activities in the Gwembe Valley. The other roads that have been neglected that I have in mind are the Mapatizya/Kalomo Road, the Batoka/Maamba Road, the Chisekesi/Gwembe/Chipepo Road, the Chikankata/Kasamu Mission Road, the Kalomo/Chikanta/Mabombo Road, the Muzoka/Umoyo Road, the Itebe/Chivuna Road and the Chikanta/Muyobe Road. All these roads have been neglected. When you hear the list of roads that have been neglected in a small province like the Southern Province then you should realise that no attention was paid to this province.Mining activities are taking place in Gwembe Valley, and for people to get to the market, they need these roads.

Madam Chairperson, the main stay of the people in Gwembe Valley is fishing and they are denied facilities like cold chain facilities that are supposed to be placed in Siavonga, Gwembe and Sinazongwe. We need the Government to put up such facilities. We also know of other facilities that the Government was supposed to put up, but we never saw them.

Madam Chairperson, I remember at one point when I asked the then Government when it would construct a modern hospital in Siavonga, I was told kavotedwe, go and ask HH. Those are the responses we were getting from these people (Referring to hon. PF Members). I know that one of my good colleagues from the PF –

Hon. PF Members: What does kavotedwe mean?

Mr Mulunda:Kavotedwe means the way you voted. So, go and ask the people you voted for. That was so painful. For a Government to do that –

Madam Chairperson, one thing that surprises us who were in this House even during the last session is that some people were saying that there was development somewhere. However, those who have traversed this country will agree with me that there is nothing even in Chitambo because there are no roads. That is a fact. So, we do not know where this development was happening from. Somebody was saying if the UPND Government does not take development everywhere in this country, it will be likened to Diramba, but Diramba was there yesterday.

The Chairperson: Order,Hon. Mulunda!

Can you, please, focus on the Vote for Southern Province. You started very well talking about the Gwembe Valley, but now, it is like you widening your debate. Can you be focused. You may continue.

Mr Mulunda: I am guided,Madam Chairperson,

Madam Chairperson, at times, it is so painful that from 1964, the people of Siavonga have never seen a modern market, bus station and harbour, but in some places, these things are there. We were given twelve dip tanks in Siavonga, but none is operational. If somebody does not qualify to be called Diramba, which name can I use?

Madam Chairperson, Diramba is a name for somebody like Hon. Mutale.

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

Can you, please, withdraw the word ‘Diramba.’

Mr Mulunda: Madam Chairperson, well guided and I withdraw the word.

Madam Chairperson, in Gwembe Valley, there are many mineral deposits, but there are no roads, and the Government has not paid any attention to us. Our cry is that we were moved from the fertile banks of the Zambezi River to the dry land, to create the lake. So, when we cry for roads, people should not interject, refuse and say we are wasting time. We are talking about what the people are going through and we are crying for roads.In Sinazongwe for instance, we need Namazombwe Bridge constructed in Mabinga Ward. We need a bridge at that crossing point just as we need one in Dundumwezi across Dongo River.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulunda: Year in, year out, that temporary bridge is always swept away by water. We need a strong and modern bridge across that river. These are the things that we have been talking about. We are talking about the development that is going to touch everybody.

Madam Chairperson, the mainstay ofthe youths in Siavonga is fishing. When it comes to empowerment, there is a selective way of giving the empowerment. Our cry is that the new Dawn Government should do things differently. They should not behave the way the PF behaved …

Mr Nkandu: No, we cannot!

Mr Mulunda: …because PF did not behave well. PF was so selective. We want every Zambian, whether one isin Kashikishi, Bangweulu or Kazungula, every person should be able to get a piece of the national cake. That is all we are crying for. When it comes to development, we want to see development across the nation. We want to see to it that everybody benefits unlike what we saw yesteryear where we were discriminated against based on the language, tribe and region. That should be a thing of the past and we do not want it. Above all, we want to encourage the Government to consider us now because we were side-lined. This is the only time we can ask for a modern hospital, bus station and market. This is the time that the Government should spread the resources across the country. We must, as human beings, always strive to make sure that we make everyone happy. We must strive to have social shame.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister for the Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to debate. From the outset, I adopt the policy statement given by the Vice-President as my very own since provincial administration is an extension of the Office of the President. I, therefore, wish to proceed by making a few commentaries on what the hon. Members who have debated on behalf of the province have submitted.

Madam Chairperson, I want, firstly, to commend them for a sober debate and for raising the issues that have been plaguing the province for a very long time.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kamboni raised the issue of a university. I think, that is a non-contentious matter. The province has more secondary schools, most of which are missionary secondary schools and, therefore, it only makes sense that we should have in the province a university so that those who complete Grade 12 can get admitted nearby.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kamboni has also acknowledged the good work of the New Dawn Administration through the hon. Minister of Information and Media who has improved Frequency Modulation (FM) signal in the province which had been a challenge for a very long time. Additionally, the hon. Minister of Information and Media has reconstructed the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Livingstone studios, which under the previous administration had been torn apart and closed down. That studio is back on its feet and it is running. This is the way it should be so that we are able to show case the tourism capacity of this country from that side of the region which hosts the tourist capital of the nation.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kamboni has also talked about the Request Muntanga Hospital, which I, as memberof the Public Accounts Committee, had visited twice. Like ChomaGeneral Hospital and many other hospitals that were started by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), a number of them under the Patriotic Front Administration, remained unattended to and continue to be in the state they were left by the MMD. I think part of the reason is that they were started by the MMD. The New Dawn Administration will look at all the projects that remained outstanding regardless of who started them because they were not started in the name of the party but in the name of the Government that we all belong to.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kamboni spoke about the issue of the potential the province has in terms of exporting beef, for instance, to the European Union which Botswana is doing notwithstanding the fact that we have more water and more grazing land. I think that, that is non-negotiable. However, as Government, to ensure that this becomes a reality, the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock informed me about the decision, which is materialising already,of decentralising testing of disease at Balmoral, in Chilanga, and taking the activity to various provinces starting with provincial capitals so that it becomes easier for our farmers to be able to reach out to the facilities. So, that is a step in the right direction to indicate that steps are now being made on what has been the desire of many to be put into practice to ensure that this is done. This is the value of having a President who is well knowledgeable and he is also a farmer. He understands the challenges of his fellow farmers and ranchers. Farmers and ranchers of the Southern Province, just like farmers and ranchers of the Eastern Province, are beginning to yield benefits from the presidency of President Hakainde Hichilema. We have also seen, in this year’s budget, that there is an allocation for the construction of Agricultural Extension Officers’ houses and Veterinary Officers’ houses. That is speaking and responding to the challenges that have plagued our farming community.The Government through the National Budget for 2023 is in earnest beginning to respond to some of these challenges.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kasauta has spoken about tarring and working on roads in the province, just like what Hon. Mulunda anchored his debate. Let me indicate that the Government is desirous to ensure that there should be national connectivity of roads because where a good road goes, development follows. However, we must also be cognisant that the New Dawn Administration inherited an empty Treasury. Some people have been asking what do you mean the treasury is empty but there is money to run Government. It is an empty Treasury because as a nation, Zambia was even failing to meet its international obligations and become an international laughing stock. To that end, notwithstanding these requirements, the New Dawn Administration,hence, as we all already know, postponed the construction of projects to a tune of US$2.1 billion to ensure that those that are nearing completion can be completed. The Government is not in hurry to embark on new projects before those that are there are completed. That is prudence because the Government does want a nation to be a litter of uncompleted projects all in the name of political appeasement. This is a Government of prudence and it is working within the resource envelop. The guiding principle of the Government and administration is that projects must chase money not money chasing projects. Meaning, funds have to be available then a decision is made to begin a project so that the value at which a project is costed, should remain constant to completion.Unlike the wastefulness and window of plunder we saw in the past where when you had no money, you went and sanctioned a project at a particular amount only to use the same in bringing in variations so that part of the money is expropriated in the pockets of the decision makers in the award of such projects. That has come to an end under the New Dawn Administration. That is the reason, colleagues, we have to be a little patient that some of the things we so dearly look forward to be done, whether in the Southern Province or any other province, to ensure that we do the right thing for the whole nation.

Madam Chairperson, as Minister for the Southern Province, I want to indicate very clearly and categorically that knowing what the New Dawn Administration stands for, we are not going to give the Southern Province priority. We are going to give priority to projects wherever they are, that are national priority for all of us because we are one country. That is what we stand for. We have a mandate to develop the whole country. Hon. Kasauta has spoken about the electrification of rural areas, schools and colleges to be constructed, dam rehabilitation and milk processing. As regards all these things, I think I have answered to the situation at hand, except I can indicate, as a matter of good news, that my office, working with ZED Vision, which is an non-governmental organisation (NGO) with international funding, is bringing into the province value addition; a meat processing and milk processing plant, so that some of these issues can be addressed away from Government funding. That is what I would encourage everyone else. Let us also tap into this window of Public-Private Partnership (PPP).

Madam Chairperson, the resource envelope, which we know is so depleted arising from the local and international debt that this Patriotic Front (PF) left us does not stress us and the future. We must be able to do the right thing. On the issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs) in the province, again, I would like to indicate that as the provincial administration, we hear you. However, we respect the rule of law. There are rules and regulations that guide who qualifies to get an NRC. We shall not behave like the PF who were giving NRCs even to the under-aged just to win elections. So, if someone does not qualify, I think that is within the purview and province of jurisdiction of the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam,I urge the House to support the Vote for the Southern Province, which is standing at K113 million.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson:Thank you so much. We have come to the end of debate on Votes for all the provinces. Just before I report to

\89=to issues pertaining to the Eastern Province.

Madam Chairperson, the Constitution only talks of the privileges of hon. Members to speak freely and not limiting us to how many should speak on a particular Vote. That is what my point of order is based on and I know very well that the bad referee was Diramba.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I reserve the ruling, so that we look into the matter. I will come to you at a later date with a ruling. L

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and the Acting Leader of Government Businesses in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjournedat 1807hours until0900hours on Friday, 16^thDecember, 2022.

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