Tuesday, 6^th December, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, first and foremost, may I take this opportunity on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia and, indeed, on my own behalf, to pass our sincere condolences on the passing of the former hon. Member of Parliament of Kabwe Central, Mr Tutwa Ngulube. May his soul rest in peace.

Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government business, theMinister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, Hon. Stanley K. Kakubo, MP, will act as Leader of Government Business in the Housefrom today, Tuesday, 6^th December, 2022, until further notice.

I thank you.

_______

RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR B. KAMBITA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ZAMBEZI EAST, ON MR MUNIR ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR LUMEZI,FOR ALLEGEDLY POSTING A MISLEADING STATEMENT ABOUT THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE HOUSE ON HIS FACEBOOK PAGE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members,the House will recall that on Wednesday, 5^th October, 2022, when the House was considering the Motion of Supply, and Mr M. Simushi, MP, was debating, Mr B. Kambita, hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East Constituency, raised a point of order based on Standing Order 203, which states as follows:

“203. Conduct of Members

1. A member shall at all times conduct himself or herself in a manner that upholds the dignity, integrity and decorum of the House.

1. A member shall not act in a manner that brings the House or other members generally into disrepute.”

In his point of order, Mr B. Kambita, MP, stated that following the failure of the Private Member’s Motion moved by Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency, Mr Munir Zulu, MP, posted, on his Facebook page, a ruling that was not reflective of what had transpired on the Floor of the House. In raising the point of order, Mr B. Kambita, MP, using his mobile phone, made reference to Mr Munir Zulu, MP’s, post on his Facebook page, which stated that:

“The Speaker declared, so DCs have no jobs.”

Mr B. Kambita, MP, said that the statement posted by Mr Munir Zulu, MP, contradicted the resolution of the House and the declaration of the Hon. Mr Second Speaker that the question had been negatived. In that regard, Mr B. Kambita, MP, inquired whether Mr Munir Zulu, MP, was in order to mislead the nation on such a serious matter, and thereby bring the name of the House into disrepute. He, thereafter, laid his phone on the Table.

In his immediate response to the point of order, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker, sitting as the Chairperson of the Committees of the Whole House, reserved his ruling. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, let me begin by guiding the House on the procedure for tabling private documents. Standing Order 140 states as follows:

“140. Tabling of Private Document by backbencher

1. A backbencher who wishes to table a private document shall seek prior permission of the Speaker.

1. In seeking permission under paragraph (1), the backbencher shall submit a copy of such document to the Speaker at least twelve hours in advance, to enable the Speaker examine it.

1. A member who has prior permission to table a document under paragraph (2), shall table it immediately after he or she has finished debating.”

Hon. Members, according to Standing Order 140, an hon. Member can only table a private document after obtaining prior permission from the Speaker. It is for this reason that a Backbencher is required to submit a copy of the document to the Speaker, at least twelve hours in advance. This enables the Speaker to not only examine the document, but also establish its authenticity.

I also wish to remind the House about the timing of a point of order. Standing Order 131, which provides the procedure for points of order, states as follows, in paragraph (6):

“131. Procedure on Point or Order

1. A Point of Order shall only be raised in relation to the conduct of business of the House being transacted at the time the Point of Order is raised.”

Hon. Members, according to Standing Order 131 (6), a point of order can only be raised in relation to the business that is being transacted in the House at the time the point of order is raised. Having guided on the relevant rules, I now wish to address the point of order.

Hon. Members, the statement which Mr B. Kambita, MP, relied on to raise his point of order was a post by Mr Munir Zulu, MP, on his Facebook page. Mr B. Kambita, MP, accessed the statement on Mr Munir Zulu, MP’s, Facebook page, using his mobile phone, while in the Chamber, and proceeded to use it to raise a point of order. Upon concluding raising the point of order, he laid the phone, and, through it, the document on the Table. Evidently, the document was a private one, which according to Standing Order 140, should have been brought to my office for scrutiny before being laid on the Table.

Further, Hon. Members, at the time Mr B. Kambita, MP, raised the point of order, the House had resolved into Committee of Supply to consider the Motion of Supply. In this regard, the House had already concluded considering the Private Member’s Motion moved by Mr Munir Zulu, on which the point of order was based. In that regard, the point of order raised by Mr B. Kambita, MP, breached the rules of the House and is inadmissible.

Hon. Members, lastly, this point of order has brought to the fore a growing tendency by hon. Members to use their gadgets in the House to access social media fora such as Facebook. Let me use this opportunity to give some general guidance. While Standing Order 231 permits hon. Members to use their tablets, including smartphones, in the House, this is largely to aid them in their debate in the House. This privilege does not extend to using the devices to follow social media while the House is in session. Hon. Members are, therefore, urged to desist from such conduct.

I thank you.

_______

MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR MUNG’ANDU, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA SOUTH, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, MR NKOMBO, FOR ALLEGEDLY RELEASING A CHIEFDOM BOUNDARY MAP WITHOUT CONSULTING CHIEFS

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, let me also join you in sending our sympathies to the people of Chama and Ngulube Mpwanakunda family for the loss of our brother who was so dear, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, former hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central.

Madam Speaker, I stand on this serious matter of public importance pursuant to our Standing Order 134 on the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. If the Government does not intervene, we are likely to have serious chiefdom disputes, particularly between three chiefs in my constituency. These would be between Chief Kazembe and Chief Chifunda and Chief Magodi, Chief Chifunda and Chief Chikwa. We are also likely to have another one between Chief Tembwe and Chief Chikwa.

Madam Speaker, this is so because the Government has released a map that is being called a legitimate 1958 map. The map, for the benefit of the hon. Minister, was probably drawn as a desktop map. No one went on the ground to check the actual boundaries. As a result, Chief Chifunda right now is Chama and I am told the District Commissioner (DC) is not there because one of my wards, Mapamba Ward, which is in Chama –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, could you state what the matter is. I am sure you have given enough background. We do not have much time, so please get to the point.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to allow a map to be released without first consulting chiefs? I know this might just be beginning from Chama and spread to the entire nation. Is he in order to release a map without first confirming with the chiefs themselves because the chiefs know the boundaries? This map was made by our colonial masters. It was not a Zambian map. Is he in order to release a map which is likely to bring conflicts between chiefdoms which might result in the loss of lives?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama South, the matter you have raised is very important, but, unfortunately, it does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Let me declare interest. I am aware of that matter because I did represent a client, in my other life, on a similar matter. So, I suggest that you engage the hon. Minister. I believe that it is affecting the whole nation and not only the Eastern Province. So, it is a matter that needs to be addressed, but please raise it using another channel or other means in our Standing Orders.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 54 – (Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development – K692,181,174)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, before I continue, let me join the Ngulube family and the people of Chama and Kabwe Central, in mourning the loss of their former representative and indeed, the Patriotic Front (PF) for having lost one of our legal brains, who stood for justice and defended the party by the name of Mr Tutwa Ngulube. He also served as a Deputy Chief Whip in the previous Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, before adjournment last week, I was debating the issue of infrastructure. I stated clearly when I began that if we have to talk about meaningful development, we need to pay attention to infrastructure. There has never been a country in the world that has developed without infrastructure. I think the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will agree with me that when he is sitting to allocate funds, it will not do if we do not pay attention to critical sectors of the economy. Today, we are being threatened with load shedding. It is because we could have not done enough in infrastructure to deal with energy generation.

Sir, when we talk about road infrastructure, I usually become very basic. I remember the time I was at secondary school, one of the subjects I took was Commerce. We had a very fun teacher who was teaching us commerce. He would enter the classroom and describe commerce as trade and aids to trade. He devised a short abbreviation called TWIBAC. T stands for transport.

Mr Chairperson, in the transport sub-sector, there are different parameters we must look at. There is road, rail, water and air transport. Therefore, we cannot talk about diversifying and growing our economy if we ignore investment in infrastructure. We have to invest in infrastructure. When you go to university, you will agree that infrastructure is used as a trade facilitator. It is a trade enabler. It facilitates development. We cannot boast of being a country that is on the trajectory for development once we ignore infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, I put it to the hon. Minister that I know and understand that the western world will not support that agenda because it does not want Zambia to be independent. It would want us to continue begging because it knows that once we develop our infrastructure, Zambia will stand on its own. That is why President Sata chose not to go to multilateral organisations. He went to the capital market to look for capital so that we can develop our own infrastructure and become independent.

Hon. UPND Member: Question!

Mr Chitotela: I know that those who have been to Harvard University will not agree with me. Those who have been to Harvard School of Business will not agree with me because they were tutored by the western world to believe in social support. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) will come with funding for capacity building. They will not give you money to invest in tangible development that will make you become independent.

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: That, they will not do.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure they know that once you become independent and invest in education infrastructure, you will have the best education. I shudder to imagine what would happen if one day, Zambia faced the sanctions that we have seen imposed on our friends in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe has been able to withstand the sanctions because it has massive investment in infrastructure. If those sanctions were imposed on Zambia, it would melt within one year. That is the desire of the western world because it wants us to continue depending on it. I am proud, hon. Minister, to say that when I served the office you currently occupy, Zambia bid to host the African Union in 2022. We took the initiative as a ministry and went to China and it gave us money for free. Today, we can boast of the most beautiful conference facility, the Mulungushi International Conference Centre. We also took a trip to India. The Indian Government gave us another grant to put up another beautiful facility along Airport Road. The only thing they requested was to name it after Mahatma Ghandi. So, I want the hon. Minister to take an interest and engage the Indian Government to put up that facility.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to remind the hon. Minister to take an interest and engage the Japanese Government. I was in South Africa, and there, we engaged and agreed to rehabilitate the Luangwa Bridge. They offered US$120 million. So, it is up to the Government to engage the international community, it is willing to facilitate and help Zambia develop.

Mr Chairperson, when I talk about development, I usually give this example; you are in Kaputa, and you have US$200 million, what is it for? It is nothing because you cannot use it. For you to access the market, you will incur a high cost of transport. People say you cannot eat infrastructure, but without it, you cannot develop. If you cannot invest in your infrastructure, forget about development. Every hon. Member of Parliament is crying for development in his/her constituency.

Mr Chairperson, when you are a student of history or economics, you will believe that infrastructure development is a trade enabler. It facilitates for commerce to take place. You cannot take a bank to Shangombo. The cost of doing business in Shangombo is very high. Therefore, I wanted to remind the hon. Minister of the past and to remind him that we must be careful in the manner we engage because there are some people who are specialised in manipulative statements. I think the hon. Minister is a witness to that. In 2013 to be precise, the hon. Minister was campaigning in Livingstone, as a campaign Manager. Some of the people whom he is sitting with reported him and he was arrested on a matter of murder.

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chitotela: So, we need to remind him of the past so that as he sits he knows that there are people who are specialised –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

You are a very senior Member of this House. You know that the rules of this House do not allow you to debate your fellow hon. Members. I think you should desist from doing such. You can continue.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, His Excellency the President sat here and talked about Kalungwishi Power Project. The hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development chose to cancel the construction of the Kawambwa/Mporokoso Road. I wonder how we are going to develop the Kalungwishi Power Project which is able to generate about 335 MW of power if the road that leads to that site has been cancelled where the contractor mobilised, organised his own money and begun working. We have cancelled that project. So, we need to be speaking to each other as we make decisions as Cabinet, so that when His Excellency the President is making national pronouncements, they are responding to what we are doing at ministerial level. So, I was wondering how on one hand, the President is saying the Government will begin building the Kalungwishi Power Project and on the other hand, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development goes to cancel the project of a road that leads to the site. I hope the hon. Minister has got a lot of sense from my debate.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: We are all aware that we started debating this Vote on Friday. I will keep alternating. Already, two PF. hon. Members have debated, one from the UPND and one Independent. So, I will allow four debaters. Thereafter, we will proceed.

Mr Kakubo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have got a lot of business to transact. We have got Bills and other things that we have to finish before our calendar finishes. Is there a point of order?

Mr Kakubo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kakubo: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a point of order according to our guidelines 65. In my hon. Colleague’s debate, he wishes to state that the Zambian Government now, made errors in approaching the International Monetary Fund (IMF). I think, it is important that our hon. Colleague does not mislead the country and himself. There are a number of reasons the Zambian Government approached the IMF. The first face is that the Patriotic Front (PF) itself, approached the IMF and failed to have a deal.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakubo: That is number one. Secondly, when a country approaches the IMF, the IMF will provide two possible solutions; technical support and advice, –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order hon. Minister!

You are debating, and also, you did not state what Standing Order has been breached.

Mr Kakubo: Mr Chairperson, Standing Order No. 65 has been breached.

May I continue.

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Kakubo: Mr Chairperson, before you guided me, I was saying that the hon. Member for Pambashe’s own Government failed to achieve the IMF deal. I was also saying that there are two possible solutions that the IMF will give to any member country that approaches it. The first thing it will do is give is technical support and advice. The second thing is financial support. What his own Government did, as I go to my point of order, is that it went to the capital market to borrow money beyond the capacity of our own country to repay; expensive money as opposed to what we have done as Zambia to restructure its own debt …

Interruptions

Mr Kakubo: …at concessional rates that are less than 1 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to be misleading the country by saying that the partnership with the IMF, of which we are a member, is wrong?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

You have adequately debated your point of order. So, it is difficult for me to make a ruling because you have debated the point of order.

I thank you.

Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi): Mr Chairperson, first of all, I thank you for giving the people of Mulobezi an opportunity to debate.

Mr Chairperson, we support the budget 100 per cent. However, we want to make a suggestion to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. The first point is that we need to go back to our original vision of the road sector; having lean and efficient structures. At the moment the road sector is bloated.

Mr Chairperson, we also need to go back to the original vision where the road and railway work together. We need to remove a lot of cargo from the road and put it on the railway so that we are in compliance with Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 7 of 2018, which stipulates that 30 per cent of cargo should go on trains. So, the two ministries must work together to preserve the road assets. At the moment, our road infrastructure is being damaged. We need to preserve the roads because we do not have money to rebuild them.

Mr Chairperson, we also need to go back to the original vision of preventive maintenance. At the moment, if you look at the budget, we only have, for maintenance, K86,885,176 and it is literally nothing. We need to go back and spend more money on maintenance so that we preserve the road assets.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is on the original vision of capacity building in councils. We are having challenges because there is no capacity in councils. We need to have capacity built in councils so that they can plan, design, construct and maintain their infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, another vision is that we need to involve the private sector in infrastructure designing, planning and construction. The other vision which we need to go back to is depoliticising the road sector. At the moment, the road sector has been politicised. That is why you find that there is no job security. So, whichever Government comes in, the chief executives have to move. So, the turnover for chief executives is very high. We need to ensure job security.

Mr Chairperson, there is another thing that we need to get back to its original vision. Before a contract is signed, we must ensure that we have 100 per cent money available rather than sign unnecessary contracts when we do not have money. That is why we now have problems. Those are the original visions that we came up with from the time we started the road sector.

Mr Chairperson, the other vision that we want to go to is to punish the supervising engineers and the contractors who produce works which fail prematurely. We cannot afford to allow people to produce works which prematurely fail. If you look at the Lusaka/ Ndola Road, it has failed prematurely, yet the road is brand new. If you look at the ring road (Tokyo Way), it has failed. What have we done to the designing engineers and contractors? Nothing has been done.

Mr Chairperson, another issue we need to look at and get back to the original vision is that of the construction of new roads. We should only concentrate on where connectivity is required like Livingstone and Mulobezi where there is no road. Those are the areas that we need to concentrate on rather than building roads where there is already connectivity. However, the construction of new roads must be concentrated where there is no connectivity.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is on the original vision, again, of roundabouts. So far, we have many traffic lights scattered all over the place which are not even functioning. You go anywhere and you find that there is a lot infrastructure wasted, but it is not functioning. We need to go back to the original design that mini roundabouts should be encouraged.

Mr Chairperson, the other original vision is on street lights. Some streets are completely dark. That is causing many accidents. Again, we need to go to those original visions because street lighting is part of the road furniture.

Mr Chairperson, if you look the at the road furniture, again, road markings are missing. As a result, we are having accidents. Kilometre markers and humps are not there. You find that you hit into a hump suddenly because there is no marking or sign on it. That is why we need to go back to the original vision.

Mr Chairperson, the other vision is on the enforcement of a bylaw which has been there for a long time, whereby, we prevent heavy trucks from going into residential areas because at the moment, those roads are damaged. Roads in residential areas are not meant for heavy trucks, but light ones.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is on monitoring and evaluation (M&E). If you look at the M&E budget, it is very little. There is only K1,420,000 which is literally nothing. We need more money on that slot so that people can carry out technical and forensic audit to ensure that we get value for money.

Mr Chairperson, those were the original visions that we had. The other vision is that five to ten-year programmes must be prepared in good time and disseminated to stakeholders and key players.

Mr Chairperson, we also need to streamline the roles of the National Council for Construction (NCC) and the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ). There appears to be an overlap. People are complaining out there that there is an overlap.

Mr Chairperson, finally, the people of Mulobezi are waiting for the Simungoma/Luampa/Kasempa Road to be tarred all the way to Kasempa.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I support the budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this chance to make mention of a few things on the current Vote, but before I do that, allow me to express my sincere condolences on the loss of the former Member of Parliament and Deputy Chief Whip. Having been together at one time, we are heartbroken.

Sir, allow me, in the same vein, to thank the New Dawn Government that the funeral is going on well. In the yester years, if one from the opposition sidepassed on, you would not be able to hold your funeral. We saw such things happen. I am glad that there is now peace and order in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, as the Acting hon. Minister gave his policy statement, he talked about review of some projects. Indeed, some projects need to be reviewed as to the cost and the contractors. I have in mind the Itezhi-Tezhi Road, the Mwembezhi Road, and the Ngabwe/Chirundu Road, to mention but a few. Let us do the review. It is very important to see what the costings were and how they were done. Maybe some down payments were paid, we do not know. So, when the hon. Minister mentioned it in his policy statement, I thought, yes, that has to be done.

Mr Chairperson, as regards housing development, Mitete is one of the new districts, but some works stalled in perpetuity. I do not think it will now be the case, where you start a project, carry out excavation works and leave. We will not work like that. In Mitete, the place where the Government was supposed to put up a police station is a sorry sight, but there are Karavinas in Mitete. My prayer and plea is that projects like the construction of a police station in Mitete should take centre stage because in the rainy season, we are cut-off. The New Dawn Government has employed teachers and nurses in Mitete, and there is a need for security. We suffer the same consequences with the people in Liuwa and Zambezi West constituencies. So, when the police station is built, and police officers are sent to the area, we will solve many problems.

Mr Chairperson, yes, communication is part of development, and the road sector is cardinal. I will be failing in my duties if I do not mention the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/MumbezhiRoad. The road network in the entire Western Province is bad. When you enter the Western Province from the North-Western Province, or through Kafue National Park in Central Province, or from the Southern Province through Livingstone, the roads are bad; that is how the roads leading to the Western Province are. Was it by design? I am putting Mitete in picture. The road leading to the province from LumbalaN’guimbo, our neighbour, and is in Angola, is bad. Generally, the roads leading to the Western Province are bad. Kantikisikamani?Butatakibufi? Meaning, where is the problem? Wherever you enter the Western Province from, the roads are bad.

Mr Jamba: The sky!

Mr Mutelo: Even from the sky.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Talk of our airdromes, they are also bad.

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Mutelo: That is how we were treated, but that was in yester years. There is now a new dawn in Mitete, the Western Province and Zambia.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Members on my left, when an hon. Member from the right is indicating for a point of order, he/she does it orderly and I am able to see. However, you keep shouting on a point of order, and it is not good like that.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: When you want to raise a point of order, it is either you indicate or stand but not shout. The two are different.

 

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I think I am one of the oldest Members in this House. We must not rewrite the history of Parliament. This Parliament has what is called the Hansard. Whatever we say is recorded. I checked the verbatim record of my predecessor, Hon. RemmyChiputa Mushota. In 1991, he debated for two days. That is why Standing Orders were introduced to limit the debates of hon. Members to twenty minutes, and that was when I came here. Whatever we say and do, goes on record. So, we must not do things as we think, but as our rules state.

Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete in order to injure the members of the Ngulube family and the Patriotic Front (PF) Party, on the death of its member who represented the party?

Hon. GovernmentMembers: Ah!

Mr Chitotela: It may not affect you.

Mr Chairperson, in the last Parliament, the United Party for National Development (UPND) lost Hon. Mweene. We mourned him with respect and dignity.

Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to ridicule the death of Mr Tutwa Ngulube by saying that in yester years, you could not mourn your own, you would be beaten, but today, you are mourning with freedom? When we lost Hon. Mweene, all of us in here mourned, and his body was brought in the House.

Mr Chairperson, we can politick about some things, but not the death of one of us.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, what is your point of order?

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, on relevance of debate. We are debating infrastructure development in Zambia, not the death of Mr Tutwa Ngulube.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Chitotela: The hon. Member can pass a message of sympathy, but not mock Members of the PF, who are mourning.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, may you resume your seat.

I was listening very attentively when the hon. Member for Mitete was debating. I think the opposite is the case. You are the one trying to be incitive. Let us not use this platform to settle our inner scores. Let us debate accordingly.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing the good people of Mpika to add their voice on this very important Vote, Vote 54.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development plays a key role in as far as providing an enabling environment for commerce is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, when we changed the Government in 2011, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government embarked on an ambitious path to connect and link Zambia, and it introduced the Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project, for the construction of various roads across the country. However, from 2021 to date, I have not seen a road that has been flagged off in terms of construction, yet we approved a budget of K619 million. Even when we passed the Supplementary Budget, not even the Acrow bridges that were promised could be installed.

Mr Chairperson, our people need roads and infrastructure. When we support a budget allocation such as this one, we support it with a sense that our people are going to get the roads they want. The road from Mpika to Nabwalyawill link Mpika and Lumezi and also open tourism activities because Nabwalya Chiefdom is housing the South Luangwa Nation Park

Mr Chairperson, it is so baffling that fifty-eight years after Independence, we are still talking about bad roads in our country,yet a country like Singapore that got independent in 1965 has built its country because of focused leadership.

Mr Chairperson, when we talk of infrastructure, we are also hoping to see new airports being constructed like the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport or the Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe International Airport.We are supporting the budget because we want to see the Government embarking on an ambitious infrastructural development programme. The Public-Private Partnership (PPP)model is welcome. However, it will not help us much for as long as those involved in the projects are linked to the ruling party.

Mr Chairperson, I do not know where the money the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) collects through tolls goes. Let me give an example of the Michael Chilufya Sate Toll Gate in Chilonga. Money is collected from the toll gate and according the Tolls Act No. 14 of 2011, the money is supposed to be used for the maintenance of roads. However, right where they are collecting toll frees, the road is bad. We have two toll gates along the Great North Road but the road is bad. Even hon. Member of Parliament from that region are failing to go their constituencies because they cannot move on the Great North Road which has become a death trap, yet we have two toll gates. Where does the money go? Is it the money which is being used for by-elections? We need a good road.

Mr Chairperson, when you talk of the Road Development Agency (RDA), in its current form, it cannot even maintain roads. It even has to engage a contractor for patching. We need to change the RDA Act. It needs to have equipment. The regional office in Muchinga Province should have equipment and be ready to maintain the roads when need arises.

Mr Chairperson, when we support the budget, it is because we want the 131 Acrow bridges that were earmarked for construction. We want those bridges to help our people. In Mpika, there is the Mwaleshi Bridge, which was earmarked under the Acrow bridges. In Shiwang’andu and across the country, there is need for Acrow bridges. I support the allocation with an appeal that the Government expedites its work in as far as the implementation of the road network is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, when I talk about housing, the Government should embark on an ambitious programme to carry out affordable housing projects in various districts. The status of the National Housing Authority is that it is not serving its purpose. It will construct houses at inflated figures and then fail to sell them. The houses will go for years without having been sold. It can construct houses and give them out on loan to the civil servants who are unable to build on their own. However, when they are given house loans, they will be able to pay from their earnings.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, let me state that I support the budget.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to add two or three sentences to debate on the Vote that is on the Floor of this House.

Mr Chairperson, the mandate of the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is clearly stated within our Yellow Book or the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure as well as the strategy on how to attain what is required in the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I support the budget ab initio.Meaning that the amount that has been allocated for the 2023 Budget, the people of Namwala clearly support it. It is our hope that with the allocation that has been made to the 2023 Budget, we are going to see development in our constituency. Further, we want to make it clear that with the allocation, we are expecting our country to move two or three steps forward because the farmers will be able to deliver their inputs and outputs in time and some places will be accessible.  Going by what is happening now, it is quite difficult because the road network in our constituencies is quite poor. This alone does not give any hope to anyone to believe or see that we are going to move forward in the agricultural sector.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Namwala have a lot of confidence in the Government and we have hope that the road network within Namwala will be a plus. We hope that the budget will help contribute to work on some roads in Namwala, particularly roads from Niko to Itapa.  We expect the roads to be worked on taking into consideration that they are economical roads for our constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, let me make it clear that our constituency is one of the maize belt areas of this country. However, to attain this, we need proper road network, like I said before. These are the roads that will make farmers to easily transport their inputs and outputs from the Boma or centres to their respective areas. We have a couple of roads in our constituency that need to be worked on. Another road that is quite important is the road from Musamu to Ngabo turnoff. We hope that the budget will be able to address this problem.

Mr Chairperson,further,we expect this budget to attend to the issues of dams in our constituency. As we are all aware, the people of Namwala are actually the second highest livestock producer in this country,if not number one. Therefore, we need a lot of water in our constituency and to do that, we need to construct dams. The ministry needs to take care of the people of Namwala who are ready to actually contribute positively to the economic status of this country.

Mr Chairperson, further, I request the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to also consider constructing the hospital or finish the hospitals that were, unfortunately, opened to the public even before they were completed.

Mr Chairperson, as regards Namwala General Hospital, there is nothing that one can point at and say that the hospital is actually attending to patients. This is the hospital that was opened before it was completed. The rooms that were designed as offices are now being used as a maternity wing.

Mr Chairperson, it is our hope that the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development will take keen interesting and look at the plight of the people of Namwala, so that for once, they can as well live like people who belong to this country. Previously, the people of this constituency were neglected. So, it is a minus to have this kind of regime that would only construct or take development to places purely on the strings of ethnicity or geography. I believe that going forward, the people of Namwala, using thus budget, will have a district hospital that will attend to their demands.

Mr Chairperson, with the New Dawn Government’s attitude and the position it has taken on the public-private partnership (PPP), we expect to see new roads across the country, and in our constituency in particular, because of the nature of the economic development that the people of Namwala are looking forward to attaining.

Mr Chairperson, with the prevailing situation, the entire country has a lot of hope in the New Dawn Government. We have faith and we hope that it is going to perform the way it has performed in the last one year. We have seen an increment in this budget compared to the previous two years. This is an indication that the Government has a position that it wants to attain for the betterment of the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to also add a voice to debate on this Vote relating to the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Mr Chairperson, first of all, I am moved by the decision of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to have allocated little resources towards a very important ministry which entirely anchors the whole developmental agenda.

Mr Chairperson, if we look at the allocation that has been made towards road infrastructure development, I am meant to think that the ministry is actually running away from the responsibility of handling one very important component of the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development which is the road development agenda.

Mr Chairperson, like many hon. Members have stated, we cannot attain meaningful development if we do not invest significantly in improving our road infrastructure. The House may be aware that the infrastructure on the road from Lusaka to Kasumbalesa has gone to the worst state ever and one would have thought that we would have allocated resources to it, maybe, not for a complete overhaul, but for speed maintenance of that very important road. We are talking about lives of people that have been lost owing to the bad state of that road.

Mr Chairperson, at some point, when I came to this House, I sounded like a broken record because of appealing to the Government to attend to the road section called Chibuluma Road. Further, the Government has undertaken to work on the stretch of the road which just stretches over 7.8 km. As I have reported before, you may wish to note that the Government has undertaken to work on that road not by going the public-private partnership (PPP) way. However, the Government has committed to working on that road. Now, when we look at the 7.8 kmstretch, we see that even if we were going to get the highest or the lowest bidder, we would be talking about spending close to US$7 million to overhaul that stretch.

Mr Chairperson, what is US$7 million equivalent to when we compare it to the amount of money that has been allocated in 2023 towards infrastructure improvement? In essence, the entire K136,054,064 that has been allocated towards road infrastructure development can actually be taken by improving Chibuluma Road. To us, this seems to suggest that perhaps the issue us of improving Chibuluma Road or overhauling the Chibuluma Road could have been rhetoric because we do not see resources that have been allocated towards that road infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister may wish to note that if we do not work on the Chibuluma Road next year, I will talk endlessly in this House because the Government undertook to work on this road. That is why I want to put it on record the hon. Minister was not generous enough when he allocated such meagre resources towards this important infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, the House may wish to note that when the Government embarked on the programme of tolling our roads, the idea was that we must generate enough resources towards the improvement of our road infrastructure, but the story does not relate to the agenda of the tolling project. There is no way a country that has got toll gates everywhere can have such dilapidated road infrastructure. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development and his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to go back to the original intention of the tolling project. The toll project was meant to raise money to attend to the road infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, you can imagine what our friends from the neighbouring countries think of us. They come through our roads, pay so much money because most of them are using trucks and everyone knows how much they are paying, but then, they are made to travel on very dilapidated roads. It, then, looks like we dupe them because there is no way one can be paying for a service and then they do not get that particular service. So, the hon. Minister should know that it is prudent to ensure that this service is provided. The people of Zambia have been echoing that there is no way they can continue paying so much money at toll gates while our road infrastructure remains pathetic.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister is aware that sometime back, there were a number of districts that were created, where supporting infrastructure development projects were embarked on. Three quarters of such infrastructure projects that were started are still lying unfinished. When you peruse through this budget, you will see that the money the ministry is allocating towards infrastructure development is insufficient to ensure the completion of any of those projects.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, when you look at the timeframe, you will see that it has taken us so long a time to complete those projects, meaning that the Government has spent so much money on the infrastructure that continues to be an eyesore in the newly created districts. So, we think that it is important that having spent money on those initiatives or projects, we have only a little effort left to allocate the extra resources that are needed to complete those projects. The people in those districts also need the services that can only come when we complete such projects that were started where we have spent so much money. So, as far as I am concerned, I want to mention to the hon. Minister that there is more that the ministry could do.

Mr Chairperson, as I end, what is the role of the Road Development Agency (RDA) in relation to issues of road infrastructure and its maintenance. The RDA only comes to be seen when there is a new project or a new road being awarded. What happens to the RDA as regards to addressing the dilapidated road infrastructure? We have called on the RDA several times to be proactive in ensuring that it maintains existing roads.

Sir, the big trucks that move on our roads pay a lot of money. So, the RDA may have lost its direction at some point by wanting to wait for a new road contract to be awarded. That is when it is proactive. The hon. Minister has a duty to ensure that the RDA goes back to its core mandate which is to ensure that road infrastructure is maintained up to a standard that people need.

Mr Chairperson, I thought that I could add these few remarks on the debate on this Vote and just hope that as we echo the sentiments of our people in our communities, the hon. Minister will address the dilapidated road infrastructure.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: There was a point of order.

Mr Nkombo: It was from me, but I will attend to the issue when responding.

The Deputy Chairperson: Dr Mwanza will be the last person to debate. Over ten people have debated. Afterwards, the Acting hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development will respond.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving the people of Kaumbwe a chance to debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to start with the current status of our road infrastructure. In our country, we have a total road network of about 76,000 km. Of these, only 40,000 km is what we call the core road network. The core road network is the minimum bare land in terms of roads that a country needs in order to spur economic development. Our road infrastructure is in a dilapidated situation, throughout the country. However, the Patriotic Front (PF) regime went on a robust infrastructure development.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Dr Mwanza: That was the core of the PF Government in terms of robust infrastructure development.

Mr Mabeta: Question!

Dr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, trunk roads were constructed at a very high cost. The cost of our roads in Zambia as compared to the rest of the southern region is very high. Therefore, for the current Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), there is a need to enhance research and development (R&D). Why is it that a kilometre of road here in Zambia costs much more as compared to Botswana, Malawi and other regional countries?

Hon. UPND Members:PF Corruption!

Dr Mwanza: We are all in the same climatic region. To construct a road to bituminous standard does not actually require rocket science. All the raw materials that we need we have here. Gravel is everywhere.

Mr Twasa: Cement.

Dr Mwanza: Cement is everywhere as is bitumen. When we talk about bituminous structures, we have the bitumen because it is a residue from the oil refinery production. The question is why is the cost of road construction so high? There could be one or two reasons. The one that the people of Kaumbwe believe is the major cause is that the procurement of road projects is not in tandem with funds. Consultants design a road, but by the time of implementation, you find that a period of one or two years has elapsed. By the time the contractor is implementing the project, the damage that is on the road and the variation orders inflate its cost. So, we need to look at that. Anytime that we are supposed to do road construction, we must make sure we have funds in place.

Mr Chairperson, as regards R&D, the RDA needs to come up with non-conventional materials that should preserve our road infrastructure. For example, we do the road construction in hot bituminous surfaces. Do we have any new materials that are used elsewhere that can preserve the wearing surface of the road infrastructure? We have. Consider Armaseal. It is a seal that you put on the surface of the road after you do the wearing course. It is to preserve the road structure.

Mr Chairperson, I also have to talk about splitting the model of transportation. We need to enforce the law of 30 per cent on the road and sixty per cent on the rail. The Ministry of Transport and Logistics needs to work in collaboration with the RDA in order to actualise intermodal transport.

Mr Chairperson, when I look at the budget, I echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for Nkana. Next year, we are not expecting any road project to be funded by the Government. The K136 million that has been put in the budget is for operational costs such as grants to grant aided institutions like the National Council for Construction (NCC) and the RDA. The Government is not going to fund any single road. This means that we are in a crisis. All these roads that we are complaining about every time will never be worked on.

Mr Chairperson, we are highly dependent on public-private partnership (PPP). We expect that all trunk roads, like the Great North, M8, Solwezi to Mwinilunga and many other roads in the country will be done under PPP. We are talking about PPP and depending on foreign investors to invest in these roads through this model. However, the PPP, by empirical evidence, takes not less than three years to make final conclusions on a project. It means that by the time we are entering 2026 for another election, there will be no single road concluded under the PPP.

Hon. UPND Member: Question!

Dr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, look at the empirical evidence I am talking about. We have the Mwenda/Kasomeno Road. It has been on paper for more than six years, but now, thanks to the UPND Government, the deal has been sealed. That road will be constructed.

Mr Chairperson, under the PPP, not many candidate roads in the country can pass the criteria of PPP because they must be economically viable. We are talking about traffic volumes. It is imperative that the Government thinks of giving a service to the people. We do not have to look at the technical viability of a road. We have to look at giving a service to the people of Kaumbwe, for example, by working on the RD 416.

Mr Chairperson, if you look at the criteria for PPP, the investor would like to recoup funds within the shortest possible time. Now, if they construct a high-cost road, it will take, maybe, thirty years to recoup. Who will be interested to invest?

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about funding sources; the Road Fund, through tolling gates. We have thirty-five toll gates in the country. Each gate raises, at least, K10 million with traffic of about 8,000 vehicles per day. Each vehicle, on average, pays K50. You find that one toll gate collects K10,000. Multiply that by thirty-five toll gates, it is almost K350 million in a month. Where is the money? If we take this collection in a year, we need to motivate the people as they pay these toll fees. When you get on the Great East Road, from Lusaka to the Luangwa Bridge, the road is very bad. It is in a very deplorable condition with so much road carnage, yet we are forced to pay toll fees. We need to motivate people by using toll fees, even as collateral.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Dr Mwanza: I support the budget, but with caution that, please, we need to –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Time is up.

Dr Mwanza: Thank you so much.

Hon. PF Members: Quality!

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Chairperson, let me also join my colleagues to pour my heart out to the Ngulube family, the people of Chama, the people of Kabwe and the people of Zambia at large at the loss of a colleague, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, may his soul rest in peace.

Mr Chairperson, I thank all hon. Members who have debated this Vote. I rose on a point of order on three hon. Members’ debate, and I will not dwell on that because I am about to explain something. I will not respond to their debate because they were completely out of context, and it is important that when we are doing this exercise, we remain in context.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mpundu from Nkana, whom I admire, and the immediate past debater lamented aboutthere being no money allocated for roads in this country. I invite my brother and friend to go to Vote 21, under loans and investment, which is not the subject now. There is a clear K4.9 billion, which we also accept is not enough for road infrastructure. However, what we are dealing with now are the operational costs that are associated with the ministry. So, the hon. Member should realise that when he makes pronouncements, such as he has done, he sends a wrong signal to members of the public. They then think they have an irresponsible Government. However, I am obliged to say that our colleagues left an annihilatedeconomy, a completely destroyed economy, and we must take it up from that perspective.

Mr Chairperson, I am now going to respond to the issues raised, one by one, hoping that I have dealt with Hon. Mpundu and the hon. Member for Kaumbwe’s lofty statements suggesting that we did not put money in the budget. The whole exercise of budgeting is that we must cut the suit according to the size of the cloth. It is pointless to continue lamenting that you should have put more money here or there; money from where? Here we are dealing with revenues and expenditure. First, you look at the revenues and then you spend. You cannot spend what you do not have. It must be understood from that perspective.

Mr Chairperson, let me give Hon. Mundubile, the Leader of the Opposition, advice. The word he used comrade is outlawed in this Parliament, and that is for the benefit of those who would like to use it in future. He talked about capital expenditure levels. It is still the same thing that when you are budgeting, you do not do what Members of the Patriotic Front (PF) used to do, where you just budget in the air and do not get treasury authority for what you are budgeting. I am glad that my colleague from Kaumbwe was very clear that you budget based on the resources you have or anticipate to have. This is not new, and the stopping of projects started as far back as 2013. Hon. Chitotela argued that the former Head of State, Mr Michael Sata, may his soul rest in peace, embarked on mobilising money from capital markets. Look at the malaise that we have today.

Mr Chairperson, when the PF Government took over, those who cared know how much Zambia owed as regards foreign and local debt, compared to today. Do you want us to go on that trajectory? Do you want us to bury our heads in the sand for purposes of cosmetics, to make us look good when the account is extremely bad and is not just in red but dark red, and pretend that everything is okay? No. We took over office courtesy of the Zambian people on the realisation that we were headed the wrong direction. For you to get to the right direction, you have to stop and think. You cannot just start driving and turn here, there or anywhere. No. Somebody said the issue about the International Monetary Fund (IMF) was an error on our part.I was a member of the Economic Affairs Committee in 2015, and the IMF came and met us in the committee room. It was very clear that our colleagues did not want to get onto the programme because of an election. Look at what has happened now. Five wasted years of clear pretence and we must look at things as they truly are.

Mr Chairperson, we are not here to appease people. We are here to bite the bullet and deal with the situation as it truly is. What you see in the Yellow Book is a situation as it truly is. We have tried to cut many corners in order to fit in. The area we cut corners, which was a daily bread for Members of the PF, is for instance budgeting for public order, teargas and things that are irrelevant to the people. Today, we are dealing with competing needs according to what, we, who were lucky or fortunate to be given the mandate to govern the people, deem fit like free education and broadening the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), by size and by extent, in order for that person in Shangombo and Kashikishi to also have a bite of the cherry.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaumbwe gave us one reason he thinks things were not working and I will provide the other reason. The other reason was that there was over pricing and over procurement. Why was there over procurement? Pockets had to be lined; that is a fact. Sooner rather than later, the chickens are coming home to roost because the truth will be laid bare. There was a lot of wasteful expenditure at the time Members of the PF were in control.

Mr Chairperson, picking it up from Hon. Kapyanga, my brother and friend, who lamented the state of the road up north, I was in Isoka not long ago and, yes, it is true there is no road there. It takes at least fifteen to twenty years, and sometimes even more, for a road to dilapidate. Why is it that the roads are finishing? Who constructed them? What specifications did the contractors put? At what cost? All those are things we need to interrogate collectively and find a solution, and not this business of who is wrong or who is right. We must forge ahead knowing that the truth has no disguise. Your team did a very bad job of running the economy. It should be put just as it is.

Mr Chairperson, let me respond to the hon. Member for Mitete. Yes, we have a challenge because of budgetary constraints. I use the Katunda/Lukulu Road when visiting my matrimonial relatives, because that is the road to my wife’s village. I do not know why it could not be fixed. However, we have a ten-year road sector programme and ten years is not a short time. We will not pretend. As and when funds are available, we will deal with the Katunda/Lukulu Road. We will also attend to the Hook Bridge in Kaoma, and the roads in the whole country. How come our colleagues would like us to fix everything that was destroyed in fifteen years in just one year? We appeal for patience and seriousness from our colleagues.

Mr Chairperson, I hear Hon. Mabenga and Hon. Mapani. Time is not with me and before we go into the details of the figures where the devils lies, I had to make those quick responses.

Mr Chairperson, yes, the budgeting process involves figures. Hon. Chitotela spoke about the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport and the Kenneth Kaunda Wing at Mulungushi International Conference Centre and that it was free. Why bring something free in the budget. Tell me why. Why should it sit in the budget if it was a gift? There is no reason to be cosmetic and flamboyant. The whole point is that we have a job to do together, and you are doing a good job of providing checks and balances, colleagues and friends, but we must always remember that we must cut the suit according to the size of the cloth. If you want to make you suit smaller than your body size or bigger than your body size, you will look awkward. So, we have four years to make good what went wrong in more than ten years.

Mr Chairperson, I am now ready to answer questions, as best as I can, on the clarifications of the figures in the Yellow Book. I thank you most sincerely for the opportunity.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE54 – (Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development – K692,181,174)

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I draw the attention of the hon. Acting Minister to page 581.I seek clarification on the listed programmesthat require finding. The first listed programme,for the attention of the people of Kamfinsathat requires fundingis Sub-Programme 1004 – Settlement Improvement. There is an allocation of K32 million, which is needed for settlement improvement. When I asked a similar question under the other Vote where the Acting Minister heads a ministry, he told me that there was a different line for infrastructure. So, may I know if the K32 million allocation for Sub-Programme: 1004 – Settlement Improvement, covers a compound in Kitwe, called Mulenga Compound, for settlement improvement.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank my hon. Colleague for the concern of the people in his constituency in Kamfinsa.

Sir, Sub-Programme 1004 – Settlement Improvement, is meant to provide and cater for the implementation of Participatory Slum Upgrading Programme (PSUP) in Kanyama and the improvement of Phase I and Phase II of PSUP in Luangwa District only. I am afraid it does not include the area in the hon. Member’s Constituency, but with time, we will attend to it.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sampa (Matero): Mr Chairperson, first of all, allow me to also pass my condolences to the family of Mr Tutwa Ngulube and to honour that brave, gallant and fearless son of the soil. May his soul rest in eternal peace.

 Mr. Chairperson, I bring you greetings from Paramount Chief Mpezeni. He said he had not seen you since elections. So, he asked me to bring the greetings.

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Sir, the hon. Minister –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, do not include me in your debate.

Mr Sampa: They were just fraternal greetings, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, that greeting is not in order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think I am one of the few hon. Members of Parliament who visit their constituencies often. I visit my constituency three times in a month. I am more present in my constituency than you are in Matero.

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Much obliged, Mr Chairperson. I will pass on the message to the Paramount Chief.

Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification from the hon. Acting Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, the substantive hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, Mr Nkombo. Let me to state that the first thing that new Governments do is to accuse the previous Government of having used all the money and claim to not find any money in the coffers. However, they find the money to fly around and go to all convention and workshops around the world.  All what new Governments tend to do is to blame the previous Governments. 

Sir, that said, my question is on page 581 of the Yellow Book, Programme: 2122 – Public Infrastructure Development – Sub-Programme 2001– RoadInfrastructure Development. In the 2021 Budget, when the New Dawn Government took over from the Patriotic Front (PF), it increased the budget on roads by 16 per cent from K117 millionto K136 million.  In the new Budget, the New Dawn is proposing to not increase or maintain the previous budget, but to reduce it by 0.1 per cent. That must be the Nalumangonomics, where people increase allocations in order toreduce. So, what the Government intends to spend on roads in 2023 has reduced compared to what was allocated in the 2022 budget. Could the hon. Minister highlight which road the allocated K136 million will be used for. Is it for the palace in the Western Province or is it for the Community House, because it is meagre. Where is the money going? The roads in my constituency, Matero, in Zingalume to be specific, have never been fixed for years. We have submitted requests to work on the roads and the ministry was meant to work on the roads, but with these rains, it is not going to work on them. Even in Kanyama, where there is an hon. Member of Parliament from the United Party for National Development (UPND), the roads are not being worked on because we are in the rainy season. Why is the money meant for roads being reduced instead of being increased?

Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to express myself. I am paid for speaking in the House and to not be gagged.

May the sun shine on you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I will give my hon. Colleague a straight answer because I think this is a very serious exercise.

Sir, the provision is meant to cater for the operational grants to the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the Kazungula Bridge Authority (KBA). The RDA also gets some operational funds. However, the reduction is not due to whatever he mentioned, as it was a tongue twister to me, but to the increased allocation to the National Housing Authority (NHA).

Mr Chairperson, the person who occupies ‘Community House’ is a very serious individual. I have always said that on the Floor of this House. My plea is that if the hon. Member has any issues with Mr Hichilema, he should not bring them here because Mr Hichilema is way above spending even a coin on his personal house. I find that to be slightly demeaning on the persona of the occupant of ‘Community House’. My true advice is that there are many of us who live in good houses such that when we got into the Government, decided to stay at home because Government offices are a passing phase. We are here to serve and when our tour of duty ends, we shall leave as we came. It is very wrong to ridicule the Head of State and to think that money can be taken from the Treasury to improve a brand-newhouse. That house is less than five years old. Truly speaking, I want to believe that it was just in a jest or a light moment that my Colleague from Matero raised the matter.

Sir, suffice to say that society is gullible and because of its gullibility, someone would believe that the President is using Government money to improve his House. I think that is incorrect. We must be brother’s keepers. The hon. Member knows very well that at the point Mr Hakainde Hichilema got into public office, he was self-sustaining.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, I join the rest of the people within the country to mourn the late Mr Tutwa Ngulube. I pass my condolences to the family.

Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 581, Programme2121 – Housing Development – Sub-Programme 1001– Rural and Urban Housing. I see that in 2021, K4,842,395 was allocated, in 2022 K54,164,399 was allocated, and in 2023, the allocation has reduced to K18,726,329.

Mr Chairperson, apart from that,under Programme2122 – Public Infrastructure Development, Sub-programme 2001 – Road Infrastructure Development – K136,054,064. In 2021, it was K117,926,364 and then K136,516,314 in 2022and it has reminded at K136,054,064, although reduced by about K500.

Mr Chairperson, with this reduction in the allocation for rural and urban housing and infrastructure development, is Lundazi going to have chance to have some Government houses built? Is the Chipata/Lundazi Road, which is claiming lives, ever going to be looked with such budgeting?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2121, Sub-programme 1001 – Rural and Urban Housing – K18,726,329, the reduction from K54,164,399 to K18,726,329 is because the provision is meant to cater for the construction of houses for local authorities in the new districts. The estimatedstatus of this projectis currently sitting at 80 per cent completion hence resulting into the budgetary requirement being reduced.

Mr Chairperson, apologise because while I was looking for this answer,the hon. Member moved on to her second question. I would like to leave her satisfied. So, could she kindly repeat which programme she sought clarification on in her second question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, greetings from Nkosiya maNkosi.

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2121, Sub-programme 2001– Road Infrastructure Development – K136,054,064 and Sub-programme 2006 –Maritime Infrastructure Development – Nil.

Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister talked about the reduction in the allocation to Sub-programme 2001, he also talked about the Kazungula Bridge Project. When do we see the Kazungula Bridge Project materialising?

Mr Chairperson,secondly, may I have clarification on Sub-programme2006 – Maritime Infrastructure Development – Nil. In 2022, there was no allocation just like in 2023. Is the hon. Minister telling us that the Government has stopped dealing with the dredging, more especially,the weeds in the Kafue River and Kafubu River? This is because this year and next year, there is no allocation. What has happened to Maritime Infrastructure Development?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, can I make an appeal, please, that since I am in an acting position, I am very keen to give correct answers. However, hon. Member should be given one question at a time because I have to flip many pages. So, I understood the first question regarding the operationalisation of the Kazungula Bridge. As regards the issue of maritime transport, I am looking where it is and I cannot find it. So, I will request the hon. Member to repeat his question.

Mr Chairperson, however, in responding to his first intervention, like I said in response to his hon. Colleague from Matero, the answer remains the same. On the operationalisation of the Kazungula Bridge,my response is that it willbe any time soon.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme2122, Sub-programme 2001 – Road Infrastructure Development – K136,054,064, has been allocated towards the maintenance of roads on the Copperbelt. The people of Mufulira want to know because K268 million was paid to Swift Cargo Limited to do the works on the Mufulira/Ndola Road but no work was done. When is the hon. Minister going to recover the money on behalf of the people of Mufulira?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, did you get the question?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, which Vote were you debating?

Mr Mabeta: Mr Chairperson, Vote 67 under road infrastructure.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, we are dealing with Vote 54.

Laughter

Mr Mabeta: Mr Chairperson, Vote 54, Programme 2122, Sub-programme 2001 – Road Infrastructure Development.

Mr Chairperson: Hon. Minister, did you hear the question? He is saying that the money was paid and he wants to know when the Government is going to recover it.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, what I have here are explanatory notes on the budget figures as they stand.This one is specific to the salaries for officers in the department of public infrastructure,the construction of district administration office blocks, post offices, housing units,police stations and civic centres in the newly created district. The text does not tell me anything about who defaulted and who got the money. I am sure that that can come as a question during the course of our duty.

Mr Chairperson, however, let me take advantage of the question asked by Hon. Chitotela because I got the answer on the absence of maritime allocation. It is important for hon. Colleagues to know that maritime has been moved to the Ministry of Transport and Logistics.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 581, Programme2122, Sub-programme 2001 – Road Infrastructure Development – K136,054,064. In 2021, the allocation was K117,926,364 and in 2022, it was K136,516,314. There is even a slight reduction, as my hon. Colleague has indicated.

Mr Chairperson, is this K136,054,064, inclusive of the Chama/Lundazi rehabilitation spot improvement works. The Road Development Agency (RDA) has started dumping gravel in very bad areas between Chama and Lundazi. Is this amountinclusive of those works?If not, where will the money come from in order to make Chama/Lundazi an all-weather gravel road?

Mr Chairperson, considering that Chama has been moved from Muchinga Province to the Eastern Province and it takes our people and civil servants not less than four or five hours for them to reach Lundazi. It takes them the whole day to reach Chipata, which is the provincial headquarters. So, is this part of the money or not? If not, where is the budget for the improvement of that road?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, in answering the question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South, I would like to just make a short illustration.

Mr Chairperson, when I was in primary school, we were put in categories. There was group A,B, C and D. So, group Awould normally understand things as they were said by the teacher, so did group B. Forgroups C and D, the teacher needed to continuously remind them that one plus one is two.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, just in the space of the last fifteen minutes when I was responding the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana, Hon. Mpundu, and the hon. colleague from Kaumbwe, I indicated that the monies that they are speaking about sits on Vote 21 – Loans and Investments.

Hon. Chitotela: Loans and Investment.

Mr Nkombo: Thank you, Hon. Chitotela, group ‘A.’

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I got the similar question from Hon. Miles Sampa who was insinuating that, maybe, money went to Community House, Group ‘B’.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Now, I am answering the same question from Hon. Mung’andu. You can categorise which group he belongs to.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

VOTE 54/2001 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism– K589,104,632).

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Mr Chairperson, I join my colleagues in passing sincere condolences to the Ngulube family on the death of our colleague, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, who not only was a member of this House, but also a colleague of mine from the University of Zambia (UNZA).

Sir, I feel honoured and privileged to present this policy statement on the 2023 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Tourism. My presentation is consistent with the national objectives and strategies. The programmes and activities reflected in my ministry’s budget for 2023 which are within the framework of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), the Zambia Tourism Master Plan and, indeed, the United Party for National Development (UPND) policy on tourism.

Mr Chairperson, the New Dawn Government recognises the importance of the tourism sector in the national economy.It is for this reason that tourism has been prioritised as one of the key sectors for economic transformation.

Mr Chairperson, in my presentation, I will give a brief review of the performance of the sector during 2022, highlight the policy framework and objectives to be pursued during the 2023-2025 Medium-Term Budget Plan (MTBP) and address the budget allocation for 2023, the key priorities to be implemented in the period and then, I will conclude.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to give a brief overview of the performance of the tourism sector globally. Sir, as you maybe well aware, the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Pandemic caused an unprecedented disruption in the tourism sector. We saw a huge economic and social impact placing over 100 million direct tourism jobs at risk, especially in micro, small and medium sized enterprises (MSMEs), which represented 80 per cent of the sectors that employ a huge share of women and young people.

Sir, International travel plunged by 72 per cent in 2020, the worst record in tourism resulting in 1.1 billion fewer international tourists worldwide. However, in 2021, the sector started its journey towards recovery, arrivals registering significant progress in 2022 with Europe and the Americas recording the strongest results in 2021 whilst Europe and the Middle East showed the fastest between January and July in 2022.

Mr Chairperson, the picture back home is not very different from what the international picture showed. Zambia recorded 496,456 international tourist arrivals as compared to 239,885 recorded in 2021 during the same period representing an increase of 107 per cent. This follows the easing of the COVID-19 related restrictions, partly attributed to improved vaccination rate globally. I wish to congratulate my colleague, the hon. Minister of Health for having attained herd immunity.

Mr Chairperson, on other hand, tourist visits to fifteen national parks in the first half of 2022 increased by 17.3 per cent to 27,841 from 23,732 in the corresponding period in 2021 while tourists visiting heritage sites and national museums increased by 13 per cent and 101.1 per cent respectively. The ministry also managed to successfully host numerous traditional ceremonies across the country, which were suspended due to the COVID-19 Pandemic.

Sir, during the 2022 Financial Year, the ministry focused on implementing programmes under the 8NDP. As such, the ministry made efforts to contribute to the strategic development areas on economic transformation and job creation and on environmental sustainability with respect to the strategies on promoting tourism growth and enhancing natural resource.

Mr Chairperson, the tourism and travel sector remains as our best bet comparatively in the creation of more jobs than our historical economic mainstay, mining, due to lower barriers of entry. If harnessed well, many Zambians can be involved in the sector owing to its nature of interdependencies and multi-sectoral approach. However, due to various constraints, coupled with the recent COVID-19 pandemic, the sector has not performed as expected over the last few years. As a result, this low hanging fruit industry has not been fully harnessed to contribute significantly to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) which average between 5-7 per cent and we are looking at it reaching double digits; probably, ten.

Sir, notable among the interventions that the ministry will undertake to address the various constraints in the 2023 Budget and beyond to increase tourist visits include, but are not limited to the following:

1. address the connectivity by the air and road infrastructure;

1. address the narrow focus of tourism marketing efforts based on the Victoria Falls and wildlife by improving or packing to include cultural, archeological and historic assets;
2. improve service quality and insufficient skilled manpower;
3. enhance destination marketing and collaborative marketing;
4. undertake policy reforms and institutional framework;

1. encourage community participation in wildlife management;
2. work with private sector through established Public Private Dialogue Forum (PPDF) to reduce the cost of doing business;
3. strengthen joint marketing efforts; and

1. above all, address the high cost of capital which contributes to marking Zambia a less attractive investment destination.

2023 Budget Estimates

Mr Chairperson, allow me to now give this august House the 2023 Budget Expenditure Estimates for my ministry. I am pleased to confirm that our budget allocation has increased from K421,099,300 in 2022 to K589,104,632 in 2023. This translates into an overall 40 per cent positive variance. Out of the total allocation of K589,104,632, K243,219,112 which is 41.29 per cent is for personnel emoluments while K228,615,475 has been earmarked for goods and services. K112,012,422 has been allocated towards transfers to grant-aided institutions while the remaining K5,257,623 is for the acquisition of assets and completion of existing infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, the 2023 Budget allocation will support four programmes namely, Wildlife Conservation and Management, Tourism Development and Promotion, Culture Preservation and Development and Management and Support Services.

Wildlife Conservation and Management

Sir, K300,205,503 has been allocated towards this programme representing 50.96 per cent of the total budget for the ministry. This amount will be used to manage, conserve and protect national parks, bird and wildlife sanctuaries and to strengthen collaboration with local communities in the administration of game management areas (GMAs). To achieve this, my ministry will engage local communities in the controlling of GMAs in order to facilitate their economic and social well-being.

Tourism Development Promotion

Mr Chairperson, in the 2023 Budget, K154.3 million has been allocated to tourism development and promotion programmes. Out of which, K50.5 million will cater for grants for grant aided institutions such as the Zambia Tourism Agency, the Zambia Institute for Tourism and Hospitality Studies and the Hostels Board of Management. The allocation will help to conduct research on product diversification in tourism, and to formulate, revise and implement tourism policies and legislation. Out of the allocated amount, K50 million has been allocated to aggressive tourism marketing activities. I am pleased to announce that last Tuesday, on 29^th November, 2022, the Republican President through me, launched the 2023 Tourism Marketing Plan that will help sell tourism products both locally and internationally.

Culture Preservation Development

Mr Chairperson, K87.5 million has been allocated to the Culture Preservation and Development Programme, out of which, K4.3 million is for personal emoluments, K20.7 million is for goods and services and K61.5 million will cater for transfers and subsidies for grant aided institutions, namely the National Museums Board and the National Heritage Conservation Commission, and the remaining K900,000 is earmarked for assets.

Management and Support Services

Mr Chairperson, the Management and Support Services Programme has been allocated an amount of K47.1 million, out of which K22 million will cater for the payment of personal emoluments, another K22 million will cater for goods and services, K2.5 million will be used for the acquisition of assets while K560,000 will be for payments of liabilities. The funds will support human resource management and administration, general operations, public service capacity building, planning, policy co-ordination and information management, and other support services.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I invite hon. Members of this august House to promote destination Zambia by taking a holiday locally, as we get into the festive season, and domestic tourism in their respective constituencies. With those few remarks, I thank my fellow members of this august House for their attention and I, once again, appeal to them to support the ministry’s 2023 budget estimates.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mtayachalo(Chama North): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. Before I do that, allow me to take this opportunity to convey my heartfelt condolences to the Ngulube family, the people of Chama and the Patriotic Front (PF) Party on the passing on of a great son of the soil. May his soul rest in peace.

Mr Chairperson, I am contributing to the debate on this Vote with a very heavy heart in the sense that the people in Game Management Areas (GMAs) in Chama have suffered a great deal due to human/animal conflicts and wildlife related cases, and I will elaborate more as I debate.

Mr Chairperson, the tourism sector is key to Zambia’s economic development, but I feel it has not been fully exploited due to a number of factors. We need to increase the budgetary allocation for the tourism sector if it has to significantly contribute to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and foreign exchange earnings. This country is very rich and it is endowed with abundant natural resources and there are man-made and natural wonders dotted around this country. Therefore, it is important that more focus is directed to the tourism sector.

Unfortunately, Mr Chairperson, the tourism sector is mostly dominated by foreign investors, and our people are not deriving maximum benefits, especially from the wildlife sector. The people deriving maximum economic benefits are the foreign investors at the expense of the Zambians. The hon. Minister in his policy statement encouraged Zambians to promote domestic tourism, but there are so many bottlenecks hindering this country to exploit the tourism sector to full capacity.

Mr Chairperson, we are targeting 437,500 tourists’ arrivals, but this is a drop in the ocean because many countries’ target is very high. So, there is a need to increase not only foreign tourists but also domestic tourists. The challenge is that there are so many bottlenecks, especially the poor road network. For example, the North Luangwa National Park is one of the fascinating areas in this world, but it is very difficult for domestic and foreign tourists to reach that area because of the poor road network. So, it is important that as a country, we ensure that we invest more in roads, communication facilities and so on and so forth, if the tourism sector in this country is to significantly grow.

Mr Chairperson, I have travelled worldwide, and in developed countries, accommodation is cheaper, and that is why many people are able to go to those countries. However, in this country, it is difficult for a Zambian to book at a lodge in Mfuwe or Siavonga. Accommodation is out of reach for the majority Zambians. Yes, we have a free-market economy, but it is important to regulate the charges to promote domestic tourism. There must be a difference in room rates for foreign tourists and Zambians because some lodges charge US$3,000 per night. Surely, where does a Zambian find that US$3,000 to pay for one night. So, we need to do more and to provide more incentives.

Mr Chairperson, I quickly want to talk about wildlife. Chama was classified a GMA in 1947. Up to this time, the 1947 Wildlife Act has not been repealed. Chama was conferred a district status in 1973, but the 1947 Wildlife Act which classified it a GMA is still in force. So, there is a need for the hon. Minister of Tourism to liaise with the hon. Minister of Justice, so that this law is repealed because not all areas in Chama have wildlife. There is wildlife in certain areas while in other areas, there is no wildlife, but that legislation has hindered the development of that area.

Mr Chairperson, I am contributing to the debate on this Vote with a heavy heart because hundreds of people in Chama are in prison over wildlife related crimes. People are being sentenced to five years imprisonment with hard labour for just buying an animal which was killed by someone else. Two or three weeks ago, a man and his wife were sentenced to three years imprisonment with hard labour for buying an animal which was killed by someone else. Some of these laws are very draconian and we need to repeal them. Further, the fine for killing certain animals is K90,000. Surely, where does someone get K90,000 to pay the fine?

Mr Chairperson, there are so many people languishing at Lundazi Prison, in Chinsali and Mpika because of wildlife related crimes, and it is important that something is done as quickly as possible. I wish to take this opportunity to appeal to His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, through the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to try by all means to release those people. People are behind bars. There are allegations that the ministry gives incentives to those –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended at 1640 hours and 1700 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Mtayachalo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended. I was about to make an appeal to the President, through the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, that there is a need to pardon most of the people who are languishing in prisons today. It is not that they went into the game management area to kill an animal, but because they innocently bought some meat from someone. I call upon the ministry to be proactive especially with the issue of man-animal conflict. When we hear of animals attacking individuals or destroying peoples crops, officers respond at a snail’s pace.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, Isupport this Vote.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Luena an opportunity to debate on this very important Vote.

Mr Chairperson, Luena Constituency, or should I say the Western Province, as a whole, has a lot of tourism potential. Therefore, we are particularly excited with the K154,293,198 that has been set aside for tourism development and promotion. What I appeal to the hon. Minister is that in the tourism development, especially when we talk about local tourism, Luena or the western corridor tourism circuit also benefits.

Mr Chairperson, it is our understanding that we cannot attract international tourists if we do not have local tourism. The only way to develop the tourism sector is to promote local tourism. What are the issues that would attract locals to travel? Indeed, some of them have been highlighted. Therefore, I will just add some of the soft issues that might seem so innocent but if not taken care of, can be very problematic. We note that some of them have already been taken care of. For example, the number of road blocks has been reduced when one is traveling from one town to another. However, we still have road blocks that can sometimes becomea hindrance, for lack of a better term, if not a nuisance. I hope that is not unparliamentary. Therefore, there is a need to ensure that our law enforcement officers on the roads understand that their role is not to prevent but to facilitate. The way they handle people, particularly those who drive through or on our roads in foreign registered vehicles, is very discouraging sometimes. I have come across people that would like to visit Zambia but would prefer to land in Zambia and then walk across into Botswana or Zimbabwe. You would find a tourist driving from South Africa, all the way from Cape Town, up to Kazungula without coming across a check point, but from Kazungula to Livingstone, they would find six check points asking for the same papers. That does not encourage tourists to visit our country. So, the issue of law enforcement on our roads and how they should handle our visitors needs to be looked into.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I want to propose is that we need to have deliberate policy to create low value to tourism products. What I mean by low value tourism product is, like the hon. Member for Chama South, my neighbour, already talked about, the issue to do with accommodation. What you find in most of our tourism areas, in particular the national parks, is that there is no middle ground. It is either high earned or nothing. If you want to go to the Kafue National Park to spend a night there, first of all, you need to have a big 4x4 vehicle in order for you to enjoy site seeing. You will then need to pay more than K3000 or K4000 that is required per night and sometimes the rate is per person. In some of the locations it is over K10,000 per night. So, we need to have a deliberate policy that encourages investment in mid of the range accommodation facilities.

Mr Chairperson, I note that we probably have not paid attention to the tourism potential that is created by backpackers. Backpacking circuits are the major drivers of tourism if deliberately developed. When you go into South East Asia and South America, you will find that what create the major tourism circuit are, first of all, the backpackers who are low value tourists. The availability of camping facilities is what attracts them. When camping facilities are affordable, you would easily develop a tourism circuit.

Mr Chairperson, today, if you want to go to the Lower Zambezi national Park and you do not have a vehicle of your own, you will not get there because it is not possible to go there using public transport. That means that even when you have visitors that want to tour the place as backpackers, there is just no system that enables them to visits some of the lovely tourism sites. Therefore, a deliberate policy to develop tourism at that level, we believe, is what will spare the bigger development in the tourism sector.

Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by saying that I support the budget and the programmes that the ministry is proposing to engage in 2023. We look forward to the ministry supporting the major tourist attractions of traditional ceremonies, as it has supported them throughout the year, and that next it will be done even on a bigger scale. In this regard, we do not forget to mention that they mighty Kuomboka Ceremony will, indeed, be on again come April or there about, next year. We look forward to a much bigger role being played by the Ministry of Tourism this time around so that we can even have a bigger ceremony than we have ever had. This time around, you will find King Lewanika boat cruise also available as part of the package. We hope that the ministry will support the efforts being made by the Limulunga District Council and the nearby districts in order to promote tourism. The nearby districts include Mongu District.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, we support the budget and thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for permitting the voice of Lumezi to debate. Let me also take advantage of the opportunity on the Floor of the House and send sincere condolences to the legal fraternity and the Ngulube family on the demise of Counsel, Tutwa Ngulube.

Mr Chairperson, permit me to mention that the Ministry of Tourism Vote, which I am hesitatingly supporting today, affects the people of Lumezi directly. I know you know that we have been raising many matters of urgent public importance on the Floor of the House on the human-wildlife conflict. We have lost out on safari hunting in Lumezi as a result of wrong decisions being made. If am not mistaken, in the year 2012, the Ministry of Tourism was detached from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs by the late President Sata, may his soul rest in peace, and created it as a separate ministry altogether. Many scholars have said the world is nothing, but a book and travelling is the best way to read this book. Those who do not travel, do not have an advantage to read this book. Today, as we are supporting this Vote, there has been no job creation in Lumezi because of the hunting concessions that were cancelled, especially in Chief Mwanya, Chief Chitungulu and Chief Kazembe’s areas. Instead, we have increased poaching.

Mr Chairperson, I rarely bring issues to do with hunting in Chief Chikomeni in MwaseMphangwe’s area, and Chief Zumwanda’s area because we do not have Game Management Areas (GMAs) in those chiefdoms. Hunters are in the valley side of Lumezi. However, animals from Kasungu in Malawi are coming into Chief Chikomeni’s area because we do not have a wire fence, but we have people who procure their farming inputs on loan with the hope that once they harvest their produce, they can pay back the loans, but animals come to destroy their produce. The Ministry of Tourism has no modus operandi on how to compensate the farmers. Instead, we even have officers who deliberately plant Government trophies on innocent people. The following day, they are arrested and packed in Lundazi Correctional Facility on accusations of killing an animal, yet animals are eating people’s farming produce with impunity and there is no compensation.

Sir, I take note that the Government has allocated about K154.3 million on Tourism Development and Promotion. Why not allocate a certain amount of money to compensate farmers who grow crops in their fields on loan, so that people do not lose out completely? I think we have paid particular attention to animals at the expense of the people. Animals do migrate. If today, we moved from Yamvu in Chief Mwanya’s area, animals will still go where human beings are.

Mr Chairperson, one year later, we are still dealing with poachers, and we still have unresolved matters to deal with hunting concessions just because someone out there is saying there is a family that has been controlling this industry. This is not a new phenomenon to Zambia’s political dispensation. In 2012, we had a problem where we had PayaKakuli Safaris and Yamvus. Now chiefs in certain GMAs have started selling land to non-Zambians because there is no business for the Community Resource Boards (CRBs) because of wrong decisions being made at the Ministry of Tourism.

Mr Chairperson, I hope the hon. minister takes judicial notice that he has not been giving us fulfilling answers as regardsthe human-animal conflict. Had it not been a practice for us to support the budget, I was not going to support the budget that I am supporting today. People in Lumezi are suffering as a result of wrong decisions that the ministry has been making. We cannot be sitting here in Lusaka and issuing ministerial statements at the expense of the good and kind people of Lumezi.

So, as I support this Vote, I ask the hon. Minister to, please, put politics and personal economic decisions aside and let us allow the right things to be done at the Ministry of Tourism. We need economic emancipation in Lumezi, especially in Chief Mwanya’s area where we have a bad road network. However, as other speakers who spoke before me said, we pay US$300 or UD$400 per night on the valley side of Lumezi. We cannot continue to support a Vote that allocates money that only supports the interest of certain individuals. Can we change the narrative and do the right thing next year.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mandandi (Sioma): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving the good people of Sioma an opportunity to debate the Vote, which is the budget line for the Ministry of Tourism. As usual,we support this Motion without reservations.

Sir, for those of our hon. Colleagues whomay not know, Sioma is blessed with two very important tourist sites in the name of Sioma Ngwezi National Park, which is very much undeveloped and rarely visited by tourists for obvious reasons; total neglect by previous Governments.

Mr Chairperson, the next one is Sioma Ngonye Falls. In view of these two sites, I am of the considered view that we qualify as a district to be declared as the tourist headquarters for the Western Province. This will enable us to attract people or serious stakeholders who can come on board and help us with the serious challenge that Sioma Constituency is facing at the moment that is to do with human-animal conflict. In some areas, when we talk about human-animal conflict, it could be on a different scale, but in Sioma, it is total war because three quarters of the constituency right now, is grappling with serious fights with elephants. As I am speaking here in Parliament, my good people, my masters and my bosses, are fighting running battles in Kalenge Village with elephants not because we have provoked the elephants, but because they have run away from the parks where they are supposed to be. They have followed us to the villages. The people in Liumbo, SilowanaLikondwamaalso have this problem, let me just say almost three quarters of the constituency.

Mr Chairperson, when we look back, werealise that this thing is not a creation of the New Government, but it was exacerbatedby the total neglect of the previous Government to recharge water bodies in the park. If the water bodies were recharged or infrastructure provided in the parks, the animals could not have followed us where we stay, and the problem we are experiencing nowcould have been avoided.

So, I am so excited that whenI read through this budget, I see that it isindicated that there is some allocation meant for infrastructure development. Please, I appeal to the hon. Minister, as he goes flat-out in developing tourist sites also to consider Sioma. It has the potential to do better and to contribute to the gross domestic product (GDP) of this country and the economic activities of the province.

Mr Chairperson, look around Sioma, and even the falls.For us to market the falls in its state will be deceit of would-be tourists. There is no infrastructure that matches its status as a tourist destination. There are no foot paths or walk ways.Forone to get to the falls,one has to crawl. That is how uncaring the previous Government was.

Mr Chairperson, the only good thing that it did or knew best was to get into our parks and steal our animals. I am so excited when we talk about restocking under wildlife conservation and management. Surely, the Sioma Ngwezi National Parkhas been depleted. There are few animals except elephants. Most of the animals that you are seeing in compounds were stolen from Sioma and brought to Lusaka, for whatever reason. I do not know.

Mr Chairperson, it is my appeal to the hon. Minister that as we think or talk of restocking animals in these tourist areas, he should consider Sioma Ngwezi National Park, but not to restock it with elephants. Let me emphasise this one. We have more than enough elephants.

Laugher

Mr Mandandi: If anything, regarding elephants, let me use a different narrative. We are appealing to the Government to crop them. This cropping must not only be limited to elephants. It must also be extended to the rivers. Day in and day out, my people die from crocodile accidents. Crocodiles are literally feasting on my people. The Government can do better.

Mr Chairperson, towards the last general elections, we were told that the Patriotic Front (PF) dumped many crocodiles in the Zambezi River so that it could reduce the number of voters in our area.

Laughter

Mr Mandandi: So, these crocodiles are still in our rivers. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to consider cropping these crocodiles.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I submit.

I thank you.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, I welcome the hon. Minister to the ministry. This is his second year and I believe that he is now in chargeof the things that he is calling for and Zambians are looking for solutions.

Mr Chairperson, listening to the debates, the hon. Minister knows that the solution to poaching is game ranching. Community game ranching is the way to go to avoid poaching. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government began with chiefdoms. The case of Senior Chief InyamboYeta is one of the success stories of community game ranching. We moved to the North-Western Province under Senior Chief Ntambu. This is a project that is coming and very soon will be a success story in the North-Western Province because they will have different species of wildlife that everyone will want to go and see. We had a similar programme for the Eastern, the Northern, Luapula and Muchinga Provinces and individual communities.

Mr Chairperson, as one of the debaters said, we must do away with politics and work for things that benefit our people. One thing that the hon. Minister needs to bear in mind is that in wildlife economy, there are foreigners involved; our friends who did not want indigenous Zambians to participate. They will sponsor Zambians to rise against him because he will be doing the right thing for the Zambian people. However, he should not be shaken when he is doing the right thing. The only way Zambians can be emancipated and get to participate in their economy is by allowing them to play a critical role. However, because of the selfishness in that sector, people will rise against him and sponsor individuals to call him names. However, when he is standing on the truth, he will be set free.

Mr Chairperson, I want to turn to issues of domestic tourism. I was excited when I heard His Excellency the President, with the hon. Minister of Tourism in Livingstone, call for the promotion of domestic tourism. Let us do the basic things that the PF began, together.

Mr Chairperson, one of the key elements that discourage domestic tourism is the cost of transportation. It is extremely expensive for a local poor Zambian to travel from Lusaka to Livingstone or from Lusaka to Samfya. That is why, if you remember, in 2020 and 2021, the PF Government proposed the suspension of duty on the site viewing vehicles; buses that were to be used for people to promote domestic tourism.

Mr Chairperson, because of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19),we learnt lessons that countries which survived were those that had invested heavily in their domestic market. One of the countries in the world, which is leading in terms of tourism activities, is Spain. If you check the Spain case, it is because it promotes domestic tourism. We cannot start looking outwards if we cannot sustain the local market. For ours to be sustainable, we should promote local tourism. That is why the PF started by promoting the Northern Circuit. It began the translocation of animals so that the human/wildlife conflicts could be reduced in areas where you see a lot of game.

Mr Chairperson, the northern part of Zambia has been deliberately depleted and people should not even blame northerners that they eat animals, no. It is because of Zambia’s independence. If you remember the history, the whites settled in the southern region of Africa and because they had a market for the southern region, they concentrated on protecting the southern region of the country and neglected the northern part. So, we can rewrite the history by beginning the translocation of game, which the PF began in the Nsumbu National Park, the Lusenga Plains National Park and the Kasanka National Park in the northern part of Zambia. Once game is redistributed, issues of poaching will reduce.

Mr Chairperson, regarding accommodation, when people travel, the cost of accommodation will be cheaper. The cost of accommodation is very expensive today because of the occupancy rate. If you check hotels and lodges in Zambia, the maximum occupancy rate is 30 per cent and they need to meet the cost of running the businesses. That is why we cry and say that the lodges and hotels are expensive in Zambia. It is because of the occupancy rate. If we invest in domestic tourism, we will reduce the cost of travelling.

Mr Chairperson, I expected the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, as he made pronouncements for the 2023 Budget, to continue with the suspension of duty on the sight-seeing vehicles and buses that can promote domestic tourism. Bearing in mind that what had led to the suspension of duty on vehicles and buses in 2020 and 2021was that there were very little economic activities in the country for Zambians to buy those buses and bring them in Zambia. COVID-19 had affected economic activities in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, let me lobby the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning thatas he presents the budget next year, he needs to deal with things that affect domestic tourismif he has to create sustainable tourism.

Mr Chairperson, as I wind up debate, I encourage the hon. Minister to look inwards and promote domestic tourism. He should create weekend packages so that civil servants – remember, we used to debate those things and we had gradually began to implement them.

I recommend the Government on the initiative on visas. However, the visa regime must be reciprocal. If a Canadian is coming freely into Zambia, then Zambians must be allowed to visit Canada for free. If Americans are coming freely into Zambia without applying, then Zambians must be allowed to go to America for free.

Mr Chairperson, we need to participate in the international community. My advice is sustainability. If you have a lot of turnover of staff in the ministry, in the Foreign Service, especially in France, which is a very delicate mission for the tourism sector, I can tell the hon. Minister that the county will not be participating on the international platform. Do not listen to noisemakers because they do not know that a cake is shared once you create a relationship.

Mr Chairperson, we created a relationship with the Secretary General of the United NationsWorld Tourism Organization (UNWTO). He came to Zambia and Zambia began benefiting a lot of things. It became the Chair for the world, in tourism.It became the first African Chair since Independence because of relationships. However, if we continue changing the Director of Tourism or the Minister, Zambia will continue being a spectator, and we will not be participating on the global tourism forum. As the hon. Member for Lumezi said, trophy hunting is a specialised business. I know there must be interests around it and I sympathise with the hon. Minister, but I pray that one day, we will begin making decisions for the betterment of this country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving the good people of Nyimba an opportunity to add a few words to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for increasing the budget for this Vote, but I have a good number of concerns.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister will agree with me that a good number of people protecting our wildlife today are not Government workers. There are very few Government workers in the bush protecting our animals, and I will pick a practical example of where I come from. The hon. Minister knows that the officers at the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), which was changed to the Department of National Parks and Wildlife (DNPW), do not have a vehicle to enable them go and monitor what is happening in West Petauke Game Management Area (GMA) in Nyimba. The Community Resource Board (CRB) scouts are the ones doing the job, but they are not paid anything. One person controls them and he comes from a private game ranch.

Mr Chairperson, in the ministry’s budget, K102 million has been allocated to asset acquisition. Considering the number of vehicles, the ministry needs to monitor and see to it that our animals are protected, I do not think that money is sufficient. We need to start investing in things that will give us money. Wildlife can give us money and I know very few people understand why it is so important for us to save wildlife.

Mr Chairperson, animals have depleted in many areas and we need to safeguard the few that are remaining. My plea is that the hon. Minister should see to it that the officers in Nyimba are given a vehicle unless there is somebody managing this and he is telling us not to buy a vehicle. I know what is happening in the game ranches. Aeroplanes land there and I do not know who authorises them. I appeal to the Ministry of Defence to establish where those aeroplanes, which land in Nyimba, come from. How does it allow them to pick animals at any time and day? So, my prayer is that we see to it that we protect the animals. There was a certain animal species that was only found in Zambia, in the Luangwa National Park, but it is now found somewhere else. We do not know how that species left this country or if the Government benefitted from its sale. So, it is important that we safeguard the animals.

Mr Chairperson, the officers who work in the bush walk because they do not have patrol vehicles. What plans does the hon. Minister have for them? I expected to hear such things in the policy statement. The hon. Minister should look at their accommodation because some CRBs scouts do not have accommodation, and I know the hon. Minister is aware of that. However, we are now using the money from carbon trading to build houses for people keeping our animals, which is totally wrong, yet CRBs are engaged in animal management and they should raise their own money. They are not raising money and they get the money from carbon trading to build houses. Some of us here would not drink a cup of water in the houses of Government workers. So, we need to invest in their accommodation.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about animal/human conflicts. We have given so much respect to animals than human beings. Today, people have been displaced, and my family and I are a practical example. We left the village for the animals and we moved close to the tarred road. When I was born, there were no animals near the villages, but because the animals have increased in number or their population has expanded, people have now moved away from where they used to stay. We have moved to an area 40 km away from where we were, but the animals have still followed us. My prayer is that we invest in protecting animals. In the olden days when the muzungus lived in such areas, they would put up a wire. Now what is wrong with us? What is so difficult about separating the areas for people and animals? However, the wires came out and the animals jumped to where people are.

Mr Chairperson, my prayer is that we see to it that even the locals, like some of us here, benefit from what is in Nyimba. I know that a good number of hon. Members on the right have been to Nyimba and they appreciate what is in the bushes of Nyimba. Let me boast that there is sightseeing in Nyimba, and the lodges are far much better than those in Mfuwe, but do we promote them? No. We are quiet.

Mr Chairperson, I invite the hon. Minister to Nyimba so he can appreciate its beauty, and not just what he sees along the Great East Road. He should visit us in the bush and he will appreciate what is there. However, very few of us have the capacity to go there because the rooms are so expensive, and we need to work on this. They say that the occupancy rate is low, but I do not agree. In Mfuwe, people pay US$15 per night and they sleep ten in one room. Why can the rates not be reduced in other areas. It is my prayer that from today, the hon. Minister will encourage the locals to reduce the rates in certain areas. Some people whom you are seeing here may be old, but they have never seen an elephant or leopard, and they may not appreciate what I am saying. So, when you tell them that it is important to keep animals, they will not understand.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Sikumba: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on Vote 68.

Mr Chairperson, I thank my colleagues, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Anakoka, Hon. Munir Zulu, Hon. Mandandi, Hon. Chitotela, and obviously the last speaker, Hon. Menyani Zulu, who overwhelmingly supported this Vote, and I thank him most sincerely.

Mr Chairperson, I will respond to a few queries that were raised by my colleagues with regard to the estimates of our budget for 2023.

Mr Chairperson, I heard Hon. Mtayachalo’s lamentations on the exploitation of the tourism sector. He strongly feels that the sector is not overly exploited and that it is only a preserve of a select few. I must make mention that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, through the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), has gone at great lengths to invite many Zambians to participate in tourism activities by way of reducing the investment pledge from US$500,000 to a measly US$50,000, so that they can apply for an investment permit and be able to enjoy the incentives that accrue in the tourism sector. So, I encourage the hon. Member of Parliament to visit our office and we will avail him with our investment guide, so he and the people of Chama North can participate in the tourism sector.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mtayachalo also lamented on the issue of the road infrastructure. I must make mention that our Northern Circuit which is North Luangwa National Park, which I would like to regard as an untapped gem, is one particular circuit that my ministry is looking into under the World Bank funded projects. We are already in implementation phase with an amount of US$12 million that we are sitting with to open up the circuit. I believe that my Colleague, the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts is aware that we are opening up the Northern Circuit, that is, the Kasaba Bay, Mporokoso/Sumbu Road and so many other loop roads within the Nsumbu National Park.

Mr Chairperson, let me also touchon the idea of having to restore the Nsumbu National Park, which we have already started. We have earmarked on restocking the Nsumbu National Park. I did make mention of that in my policy statement and we will continue monitoring the habitat there.

Sir, on the issue of the game management area (GMA), yes, indeed we want to have as much land protected so that we can keep it for our children’s children. The aspect of having to degazette the GMA in North Luangwa is something that has to be tabled, probably brought to this House to determine.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of having to arrest poachers, let me say that poaching is a crime. It is the penalties that are prescribed in the law that attract poachers. To suggest that we should release some of them from prison, I do not think we have the prerogative of mercy to actually get them out.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Anakoka did speak very well regarding domestic tourism. I am happy that within our 2022 budget into 2023, we are talking about opening the South-Western Circuit. We are targeting to revamp access into the Liuwa National Park. What are we going to do about the South-Western Circuit? Obviously, we are going to sort out the Kazungula/Sesheke Road. We will also sort out the bridge in Kalabo and the Kalabo Airstrip. That is the minimal infrastructure development we have been talking about in our budget, in our Government. So, that is indeed going to happen.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of promoting domestic tourism, I am happy that Hon. Anakoka talked about backpackers. The traditional free independent travellers what we call the FITs are indeed the ones who travel at low budget and they speak the loudest. They will send the word that Zambia is a fantastic destination and people should visit it. That is what we are trying to achieve. Indeed, Coronavirus Diseases-2019 (COVID-19) came with a silver lining. It taught us that domestic tourism is the way to go. We are going to harness domestic tourism and make sure that our people enjoy the domestic tourism that we have to offer. You have to look inwards before you go outside.

Mr Chairperson, as for what Hon. Munir Zulu said, I think we need to put the record straight. We did not, by any chance, as United Party for National Development (UPND) single out any individuals as being the only ones running the businesses. No! What we did as Government was to relook at the processes and procedures which were left by our hon. Colleagues on the left, here. I think it is only right that you allow the new Government of the day to take an audit of what was happening before. So, I think suggesting that we cancelled contracts which in avertedly were not even in existence is misleading the nation. We have tendered and we are evaluating the contracts. Sooner than later, we will be announcing the new available bidders for the 2023 hunting season.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mandandi talked about the Sioma Ngwezi National Park. This, obviously, speaks to the South-Western Circuit that we are trying to promote. Indeed, Sioma Ngwezi National Park is a marvel. Within the 2023 Budget, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane did announce that we are going to have incentives for importing breeding stock of wildlife. That, indeed, will increase our gene pool for the wildlife that we have in our country, which you may have lost. That will also go to the community game ranches that I heard from Hon. Chitotela, help us figure out how best we are going to increase the number of community game ranches and make people stop poaching.

Mr Chairperson, let me make mention that the only way we can stop poaching is to allow people to invest in community game ranches and indeed, on commercial game ranches. As the UPND Government, we want to start seeing dingi game meat readily available in all the super markets. That way, we are going to make poaching unsexy.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of human-animal conflict was raised by a number of our Colleagues in the House. I do realise that this is the matter that we need to take seriously as a House. How we are going to management human-animal conflict, obviously, is to make sure that we come up with possible legislation that will allow us to see how best we could crop, translocate and also how best we could compensate a number of individuals who might lose their harvest due to these animals that we keep safe. Let me also mention that we are in the process of looking at legislation that will allow us to compensate those people who lose their harvest due to damage by elephants or whichever animals.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of the Ngonye Falls in the Western Circuit to be opened up, again, the allocation in the budget for minimal infrastructure development is very clear. The Ngonye Falls, like the hon. Member of Parliament for Sioma did mention, is another area where we are looking at possible investment. One of the key possible investments that are sitting in the Ngonye Falls is the generation of power from the Western Province. We do realise Zambia has a power deficit and we are looking at opportunities of using hydro power to generate more power for the country.

Sir, on restocking of the Sioma Ngwezi National Park, I did make mention of it before and we will deal with that.

Mr Chairperson, I am inclined to believe that, yes indeed, there were crocodiles that were sent through to not allow us to win the elections but unfortunately, as the Government, we went round that and managed to win the elections.

Mr Chairperson, last but not the least, there was a contribution from Hon Menyani Zulu, from Nyimba. I do agree that we have a few challenges with regard to logistics and indeed our men and women in uniform need to safe guard very well by being incentivised. Within the budget, you will notice that a section of wildlife conservation has received a substantial amount of money to make sure that certain national parks that are not managed by our collaborating management partners see the logistical support in terms of cars, patrol vehicles and accommodation being readily available.

Mr Chairperson, last but not least, we sympathise with you, again, where our officers seem to be using finances out of what is not mainstream wildlife conservation to build their houses. We are one Zambia, one nation, and one people. We are working with one Government policy. So, any money that goes in a particular kitty is the same that will use to build that community.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I submit.

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism– K1,435,494)

Mr Mulaliki (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I will be failing in my duties if I do not commend the hon. Minister of Tourism for the manner in which he has been handling calls or concerns relating to human-wildlife conflict. I am interest in one part. On page 629, Programme 2199, Sub Programme 7001 – Executive Office Management – K1,435,494.I see a reduction from K1, 927,163 this year, 2022, to K1,435,494, next year, 2023.

Mr Chairperson, my concern is on the officers in Senanga. I wish the hon. Minister could find time to visit the office in Senanga. The officers literally do not have furniture. They get furniture from their homes. I do not know if from this reduction, the ministry is considering buying them office furniture.

Mr Sikumba: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for that timely question. Indeed, issues to do with furniture for our offices do not sit on that Vote. Obviously, it sits on a different Vote. However, to answer his question, if he has noticed, there has been an increase in the allocation to Management and Support Services. That is where we have allocated money for respective office furniture and all other logistical support we need to offer to such areas. Otherwise, I am happy that he brought it to the attention of this House. We will be able to get our officers in that area to address those issues.

Sir, I also want to understand exactly which particular office he referred to. You will realise that the Ministry of Tourism catersfor different departments as well as statutorybodies. If he could zero in on that particular office,I should be able to deal with it very quickly.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Mr Chairperson, thank you. I was almost thinking you were not going to recognise me.

Sir, may I have clarification on page 634, Programme 2129, Sub-programme 9001–Culture Preservation and Services – K87,516,816. I have noticed that there is a marked increase progressively from the first year, second year and the third year. So, I want to find out what activities the ministry is devoting to this programmefor the allocation to be increasing.

Mr Sikumba: Mr Chairperson, indeed, if the hon. Member got it correctly from my policy statement, what we are trying to focus on as a ministry is cultural development. What we believe in is that culture remains a strong fabric for Zambia. If, indeed, we do not harness or maintain our culture, we will not be able to have a story to tell to our children’s children. As such, we are looking at increasing visibility with respect to traditional ceremonies. You will notice that in fact, a number of chiefdoms have been gazetted, and as such, other chiefdoms are requesting to have traditional ceremonies as it were.

Mr Chairperson, you will also agree with me that within the department of culture, thereinlie two statutory bodies that are under the ministry, which is the National Museum Boardand the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC). We have embarked on certain plans that we want to enhance the tourism aspect that Zambia has to offer. As such, we will see an increase in that budgetary allocation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 68 ordered tostand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 66 – (Ministry of Technology and Science – K769,723,539)

The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati): Mr Chairperson, I join my other hon. Colleagues in conveying my heartfelt condolences to the Ngulube family on the passing of Hon. Tutwa Ngulube.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the privilege of addressing this august House to present the policy statement, which will guide the operations of the Ministry of Technology and Science in 2023, under Vote 66. My ministry provides an oversight role on science, research and development, technology and innovation, vocational and entrepreneurship training, and InformationCommunication Technology (ICT) as stipulated in the Government Gazette Notice No. 90 and 1123 of 2021.

Mr Chairperson, on Friday, 30^th September, 2022, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, MP, delivered to this august House the 2023 National Budget, whose theme is, “Stimulating Growth for Improved Livelihoods”. The speech noted the important role that science, technology, innovation, and skills development play in job creation, e-commerce and deepening financial inclusion, and indeed, paving the path to a digital economy.

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, my ministry will build on past achievements in order to continue positioning itself in stimulating economic growth within the framework of our cross-cutting mandate. I want to express my appreciation to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for extending various tax incentives to the ICT sector in the 2023 Budget. This move alone is a game changer and will surely spur digital transformation, particularly connecting the unconnected.

2022 Highlights

Information Communication Technology (ICT) Development

Mr Chairperson, in 2022, under ICT development, my ministry scored a number of successes driven by the continued thrust to position technology and ICT as a cornerstone for economic growth and national development. In this regard, with the support of co-operating partners, my ministry undertook two assessments of the country’s digital position, namely:

1. the Inclusive Digital Economy Scorecard and the Digital Economy Assessment. The outcomes of this assessment will enable able us to understand the constraints that hinder the development of an all-inclusive economy; and
2. with the support of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) we conducted the Accelerating Digital Transformation in Zambia Assessment (ADTZA). This assessment helped to inform the review of the ICT Policy and the development of the digital transformation strategy.

Mr Chairperson, to improve the provision of ICT services through improved service delivery by Mobile Network Operators (MNOs), my ministry successfully managed to auction spectrum in the range of 2600 MHz, 700 MHz, and 800 MHz, frequency bands. This enabled us to launch the 5G network in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, to increase mobile coverage and connectivity in the country, my ministry continued with the constructing and upgrading of 1009 communication towers under phase II ofConnecting the Unconnected. For the period under review, 958 communications sites had been completed and of these, 836 are on air, while the remaining 117 are awaiting the procurement of active equipment.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, my ministry has commissioned an additional twenty-four communication towers under the Universal Access and Services Fund (UASF). Further, my ministry through the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) has completed the construction of seventy-two additional mobile network towers. In addition, 160 towers will be constructed by the MNO’s as part of their licensing regime requirement, bringing the total to 246.

Sir, furthermore, in order to inform the location and allocation of towers in the country, my ministry recently undertook a gap analysis study, and we have since asked the hon. Members of Parliament to avail us with information regarding the towers in their respective constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, in order to enhance the digital transformation using the information and communications technology (ICT) sector, my ministry has placed priority on the review of the legal and policy framework and the following Acts are under review:

1. the legal reforms which will result in the review of theInformation and Communications Technology Policy of 2006; and
2. the ministry has also commenced a review of the Cyber Security and Crimes Act No. 2 of 2021 in order to include provisions that will strengthen enforcement mechanism and redefine the concepts in line with the Republican Constitution.

Skills Development

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to report to this august House that during the period under review, the ministry increased access to Teaching Education, Vocation and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET) for learners with total enrolments reaching 68,788 in 2022 in comparison with 49,920 in 2021, representing an over 14 per cent increase.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to report that for the period under review, my ministry commenced the review of the Technical Education Vocation and Entrepreneurship Act No. 13 of 1998 and its Amendment Act No. 11 of 2005 in partnership with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. Further, with the financial and technical support of the international labour organisation, we commenced the development of a Work Based Learning Bill, which will replace the Apprenticeship Act of 1965.

Mr Chairperson, to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to entrepreneurship training for the period under review, my ministry finalised the development of the Entrepreneurship Development Strategy.

Mr Chairperson, for the period under review, my ministry implemented the National Skills Empowerment Programme supported by the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). So far, the number of beneficiaries of skills training in our TEVET institutions, through the model, stood in excess of 6,800 learners in 125 constituencies. As a ministry, we are making efforts to engage hon. Members of Parliament in the remaining thirty-one constituencies to sensitise their youths to utilise this empowerment initiative.

Mr Chairperson, for the period under review, my ministry also managed to access ten TEVET institutions that are able to manufacture desks. This will cushion the shortage of desks in our schools brought about by the good policy of free education. The ministry also managed to conduct a desk fair at Parliament, which was graced by the Hon. Speaker of the National Assembly of Zambia.

Infrastructure and Development

Mr Chairperson, for the period under review, my ministry continued with the construction of trade training institutes in Lundazi, Sesheke, Mumbwa and Mporokoso. Of this, I am happy to report that Sesheke Trade Training Institute is nearly complete and due for commission before the end of this year while Lundazi and Mporokoso are at 74 per cent and 82 per cent, respectively. Further, the ministry continued the construction of additional hostel blocks at Chipata and Ukwimi Trade Training Institutions. These are expected to be completed and launched by the end of 2022, and will result in the creation of a combined bed capacity of 960.

Equity Promotion

Mr Chairperson, in order to promote equity in access to TEVET, my ministry supported 8,813 students for 2022, as compared to 4,222 in 2021.

Science Technology and Innovation

Mr Chairperson, for the period under review, I am pleased to report to this august House that the ministry commenced the review of the Technology Act of 1997 and the innovation Act.

Mr Chairperson, for 2023, the priority area for the ministry will be:

1. to enhance cooperation through institutional and legal framework;
2. develop commercialise and adapt transformation technology;
3. fully established and operationalise ground breaking station;
4. establish incubation centres to support start-up businesses and technologies;
5. upgrade skills and competences for scientists and researchers at Masters and Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) level;
6. enhance the role of industry and private sector in science, technology and innovation (STI); and
7. enhance capacity building.

Mr Chairperson, in 2023, we have been allocated K769.7 million as compared to the 2022 budget of K716 million representing a 7.4 per cent increase. Out of this amount, K728 million will be financed from domestic borrowing, K40 million will be financed by international cooperating partners.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has allocated funds by programme:

1. K 335.7 million representing 42 per cent has been allocated to skills development;
2. K134 million representing 19 per cent has been allocated to science research, development technology and innovation;
3. K176.8 million representing 23 per cent has been allocated to information communication technology; and
4. K55 million representing 7 per cent has been allocated to management and services programme.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude my address to this august House, I wish to appeal to all the stakeholders in the various portfolio mandate areas of my ministry to be part of this budget execution by contributing to the achievement of deliverables set out in this document. The onus is on all of us to make a change in this sector and, as the Government, we will provide the necessary guidance and initiative.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Katotobwe (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much. Before formation of my discourse, I take this opportunity to express my deep sorrow and that of the people of Luapula Constituency on the demise of our colleague, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, may his soul rest in eternal peace.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia cannot afford to continue to shun application of substantial investment in science and technology and expect to register economic growth. I stand to be corrected, but to the best of my knowledge, throughout human history, countries that have registered economic boom have relied on correct and effective application of science and technology.

Mr Chairperson, the 2023 Budget is inspired by South East Asian countries. The South East Asian countries’ economic success was anchored and still is anchored on science and technology. We cannot draw inspiration from countries that made substantial investments in science and technology and expect to get the same results without being willing to make substantial investments in science.

Mr Chairperson, value addition, via mineral beneficiation, is only possible through science and technology. There is no quantum jump in sustainable economic growth without science and technology. The relaxed approach to science depicted in both the 2022 and 2023 Budget, with vague performance tangents, leave a lot to be desired.

Mr Chairperson, according to the Scientific Report Index of 2022, the top five countries in Africa vis-à-vis construction works output are, in first place, South Africa, followed by Egypt, Kenya, Morocco and Algeria. Globally, China is the largest producer of scientific works out put followed by the United States (US), Germany, United Kingdom (UK) and Japan. Zambia is nowhere near being in the top five of scientific works production in Africa. Scientific works production is a fundamental catalyst for economic growth.

Mr Chairperson, the contents of being content without being on the top five, vis-à-vis, science has a negative impact on our economic growth. The challenges of our economy are a direct indication of the poor state of our research and investment in science as a country.In the estimates of revenue and expenditure for 2023, there is no allocation for training scientists at the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research. In this day and age, the average age in Zambia is eighteen years and Zambia’s population growth being 2.9 per cent per annum, you cannot avoid to invest in training scientists and appropriately utilise the trained scientists in strategically targeted economic areas of focus.

Mr Chairperson, a phenomenon opportunity of an industrial revolution involving electric vehicles has arisen in our neighbourhood. This, according to the Bloomberg Financial Report, is a US$46 trillion revolution and the epicentre is the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). The manufacturing of the lithium-ion battery precursors presents a huge opportunity for evolution and transformation of economies in Africa and transformational changes of global economies. Zambia may be left out in taking part in this opportunity because of its lack of investment in science and technology. The supply value chain involving the electric vehicle revolution will cascade to multiple economic benefits to all the countries that will play a part. As I speak, twelve countries in Africa are earmarked to participate in the value chain supply of the electric vehicle industrial revolution. Zambia is not one of those countries unfortunately.

Mr Chairperson, in the first Republic, Zambia largely owned the manning of research and development and the then National Centre for Scientific Research was under State House. With time, Zambia does not own any research and development, and this is largely funded by donors. As we appeal for an increase in the budget allocation of science and technology, we want to put on record that the Government must respect, own and fund research in this country. We cannot have a country where anybody can come and fund and own a research, and utilise it for whatever he/she wants to use it for.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Luapula Constituency’s hope of economic development lies in science. Science is not abstract. We need to have a deliberate calibrated national economic growth strategy anchored on science and technology, and utilise our best scientists and engineers to help register sustainable economic growth. With this humble voice of the people of Luapula Constituency, I submit.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mutelo(Mitete): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Mitete to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, the services that the three service providers provide to the general public are poor and the hon. Minister should look into that. The hon. Minister and his team should engage the service providers because their services are poor.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the clusters. Cluster number two is about human and social development to enhance science, technology and innovation, and the catch word is innovation. There are people, whom some people would say are not educated, but in terms of innovation, they can do a lot more. What are we doing about this? How are we going to handle such people who have the natural science acumen in them? Is it just in sports, and not in science, where we tap talent? Do we not have people who are good in science? Some developed countries use the skills of those who have not been through formal education systems. Something must be done in Zambia because there are people in Lukulu who are able to work using their heads even though they did not acquire any formal education. Such people are there. If the hon. Minister wants, I can mention a name.

Mr Chairperson, sometimes when I talk on the Floor of the House, it seems like it is politics; it is not. When you state facts, facts remain. The hon. Minister has just circulated a list to each one of us, on network coverage. The hon. Minister knows where Mitete is. In the entire country, it is only Mitete which has twenty-five sites for communication towers. What I am asking is what went wrong for Mitete to remain unserviced? The past regime erected communication towers in the country. What was the problem with Mitete in the last ten years?

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister and his team have the facts. What is wrong with Mitete for it not to have communication towers? What is the problem? When I say that, other people take offence, but those are the facts. We are going digital and we are being told to use our phones for everything. Which towers are we going to be connecting onto to use our phones?

Mr Chairperson, allow me to thank the New Dawn Government and the hon. Minister. At least, two communication towers were erected in Mitete this year, out of the twenty-five earmarked for Mitete. On page 616 of the Budget, there is information on towers that will be erected in 2023. I beg the Government, and I have been begging when I am not supposed to be begging, to erect towers in Mitete but not the short ones. I am tall and even the short people here would love to have tall communication towers covering a good radius.

Mr Fube: Taller than you.

Mr Mutelo:Mr Chairperson, the Member of Parliament for Chilubi is engaging me. What I am saying is that we do not want short towers.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo:We want towers with a radius that will cover a great number of kilometres.

Mr Chairperson, I debate with few words. On that note, I end here.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, allow me, as a starting point, to convey my heartfelt condolences to the Ngulube family and to the people of Zambia since Hon. Ngulube touched different lives.

Mr Chairperson, as the starting point for people of Chilubi, we do note that this ministry, which is an enabler, just like the Ministry of Transport and Logistics is anchored on two clusters. That is economic transformation, job creation and another one is human and social development.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to concentrate on strategy number one which is access to equality, and equitable and inclusive education. To me, this strategy does not just apply to education as we receive it in secondary schools but also to education as being part of the global world, Zambia inclusive.

Mr Chairperson, in view of the first strategy, before I go to the fourth strategy, which I think Hon. Member for Mitete also tackled, let me register that we have a poor skills tracing mechanism in Zambia. What I mean is that we have many young people that are involved in different innovations or interventions. You would find that at secondary school, we have young people getting involved in Junior Education Technician Scientist (JETS) and they compete. Some of them come up with all sorts of innovations. However, we do not build on those innovations to reach to some extent. You find that we do not even trace the same young brains that would have interfaced at that point. We do not even know where they go after the JETS projects that they made. That is what I meant by poor skills tracing. This means that we are grappling with a very big skills gap. Since this ministry deals with skills, let me emphasise that skill is about knowledge and technological transfer. If that is the case, as we speak, then Zambia is just a beneficially of many technological products. We are a dumping place for many things. We have churnedout engineers from universities and the like. However, they just remain as paper tigers not pragmatic as it may be.

 

Mr Chairperson, I was perusing through the budget. I am sorry that the budget that has been allocated to innovations and technology, which has been static from 2022 to 2023 is the same amount. The people of Chilubi would have appreciated if there would have been a big increment especially that competition now is, as Hon. Katotobwe did refer to, about who is better in technology because even for us to reap in the region and internationally we need to bargain like the tycooneconomies have been bargaining.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to address the issue of research and development. On this one I want to bank on strategy number four, which is enhanced science and technology and innovation. We know that without research in the fast-moving world that we are talking about, we cannot reap the dividends especially that we are not aligned in economic competition. We are competing with other countries. If we are alive to that fact, it means that we need to facilitate proper economic development. I have the song that we have sung for some time on economic zones which, to me, were strategically put in different provinces so that they become the hubs of technological innovation as well as many other developments in line with that.

Mr Chairperson, I have perused the budget and I do note that we know that, for instance, Smart Zambia is an instrument that is meant to facilitate operations of the Government. However, I still believe that the ministry could have a strong link with Smart Zambia especially when talking about weak environments of our Government institutions. Smart Zambia comes in so handy. There would have been a strong interlink with the ministry as well as Smart Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the component of information communication technology (ICT). As things stand, I know that we have had to main stream it into the school curriculum. I think that is not enough. When we are talking about skills development, I have in mind that there are grade seven and nine dropouts, and even those that have dropped out including those that have not gone through the formal education system. When we talk about skills, we are simply talking about elevating the human capital to bargain their position with what is ticking in the world and what is ticking now is technology.

Mr Chairperson, I would be performing a serious injustice if I do not address the issue of postal services. In Chilubi, postal services are not about posting letters. It is not about when there are a young person applying for different jobs then that is when a post office becomes active. In Chilubi, when we talk about postal services, we have in mind postal boats. I think the amount that has been allocated, which is K12,483,283, to us that bank in that Chilubi is not the only place that is existing,there are other places. We are waiting. We are actually waiting for this 2023 Budget that is going to repair the two postal boats which are helping us in ferrying material especially building materials. Those who have been to Chilubi can bear me witness. It is impossible to talk about implementation of Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects, if those postal boats will not become operational. The shifting of stones, transportation of cement, plants and may other factors that go into building depend on them.

Mr Chairperson, as I support this budget, I submit that we would have amended this budget component, if we had ways to amend it, so that we have a proper ferry that can even take earth moving equipment to Chilubi Island so that we can have our roads attended to.

Mr Chairperson, I rest my case on this component as I support the budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think we will allow all the voices of all the Independent hon. Members to be heard.

Mr Kandafula (Serenje): Mr Chairperson, allow me, on behalf of the people of Serenje and, indeed, on my own behalf, to convey condolences to the family of the late Hon. Ngulube and the entire people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, on behalf the people of Serenje, I just have one item to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister, and it has to do with communication towers. We are told to select places with economic potential, but when we look at Serenje, for example, we see that it is a vast rural constituency. So, when we talk about potential, Serenje has potential everywhere except that people are spaced. Now, if we were to restrict ourselves, it means that communication would not be that good because of the spaces that are in between locations. For example, we have the Nansanga Farming Block and the Kasanka National Park, but in between, there are people dotted around. So, if we concentrated on places like Lukulu, it equally has the same problems because Zambia still has a small population. So, why can we not just invest more money so that we, at least, have communication towers almost everywhere because in the event of experiencing a breakdown, I would still be able to communicate with help to come and help me. My appeal to the hon. Minister is that he should consider extending communication towers to every part of the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much. At least you are very mindful of time.

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, let me thank the four hon. Members who have debated. These are Hon. Katotobwe, Hon. Mutelo, Hon. Fube, and Hon. Kandafula.

Sir, let me start by responding to Hon. Katotobwe. I agree with him that science is a driver for technology and innovation. It also drives economic growth. To start with, what we are doing at the ministry is that we are relooking at the Science and Technology Policy because when you do not have policy, you will go in various directions.

Sir, secondly, we are also reviewing the Science and Technology Act because the one that we have is from 1997. There have been many shifts in science since 1997. The thing we are trying to cure in science is the massive fragmentation. Many institutions such as universities are doing research on similar projects and sometimes on disconnected projects. So, we are trying to come up with an integrated approach which we are calling the Science Agenda. So, the first step is to clean up and create direction. The third level is the creation of capacity. We have said in the budget that we are going to provide resources for people to be trained at Master’s Degree level and Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) level. We have to begin from somewhere.

Sir, at the fourth level, we will have to look at our institutions. The hon. Member mentioned the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR). We met with the science community and said Kenneth Kaunda (KK) will be remembered for, among other things, the tiptop. This generation must also have a clear agenda of what we shall deliver from the science perspective.So, the science community has been brought together and asked to pick two or three concrete products that it can deliver to the people of Zambia.That is what we are working on. Yes, we are not in the top five in Africa, but we are matching towards the top. However, we have to start first with policy, legal framework and human resource capacity building.

Mr Chairperson,the hon. Member for Mitete talked about service providers. Only this morning,I engaged all the service providers about issues around the quality of experience from a customer perspective; calls dropping; resolution of complaints, particularly, on the internet; and what they are doing in terms of providing a service that is good for customers.

Mr Chairperson, we also addressed issues around cyber security and fraud with various operators. We addressed issues around the consumption of bundles and what we need to do together. The other issue was to do with connectivity; when you are connecting from one operator to the next as regards the charges and, in particular, mobile money. So, we are addressing those things.

Mr Chairperson, regarding towers, we love the people of Mitete and we will do what is supposed to be done so that the area is transformed and that as they walk around, they will be talking from anywhere, anytime and on any gadget.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Fube talked about science. I have touched on that. He requested for water transport in his constituency, on the Bangweulu. To give him some consolation, yes, it was down, but this week, it is going to be operational.

The amount that has been allocated in the budget of K12 million is the normal grant that the Government provides to the Zambia Postal Services (ZamPost). It is not for boats. It is for supporting the operations of the ZamPost. The ZamPost does provide sufficient resource to create capacity for boats.

Mr Chairperson, in Serenje, the issue is on towers. The reason we requested hon. Members of Parliament to help us in terms of the location for the towers was for us to exactly solve the problem that they have raised. So, give us the input and we will see how we will prioritise the planting of towers, given the resource envelop.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 66 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1842 hoursuntil 1430 hourson Wednesday, 7^th December,2022.

____________