Thursday, 24^th November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

SADC PARLIAMENTARY FORUM STANDING COMMITTEES MEETINGS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Southern African Development Community-Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) has organised meetings of its standing committees scheduled to take place from tomorrow, Friday, 25^th November to Monday, 28^th November, 2022. The meetings will be held virtually from 0900 hours to 1630 hours each day.

 In this regard, hon. Members, especially those who are not members of the SADC-PF Standing Committees, are urged to attend the meetings. In order to attend, hon. Members are required to register online and in advance. Registration details and a schedule of programming will be communicated to all hon. Members by the Office of the Clerk.

I thank you.

DEFERMENT OF MINISTERIAL STATEMENT BY HON. MINISTER OF TECHNOLOGY AND SCIENCE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Tuesday, 22^nd November, 2022, I directed the hon. Minister of Technology and Science to render a ministerial statement on the failure by farmers to access farming inputs due to inactive Subscriber Identification Module (SIM) cards. The directive followed a matter of urgent public importance raised by Mr Y. Mtayachalo, hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North Constituency.

The ministerial statement was scheduled for today, Thursday, 24^th November, 2022.  However, the statement will be issued on Tuesday, 29^th November, 2022.

I thank you.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, MR NKOMBO, ON FAILURE TO UPGRADE COMMUNITY SCHOOLS IN PETAUKE

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, in Petauke Central Constituency, we received the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for 2021, in September, in that same year. This year, we have received funds for the first, second and third quarters, and there are plans to work on about forty-six community schools which were upgraded to primary schools.

Madam Speaker, today in the morning, we received the first rainfall in Petauke. We have community schools which we have not yet started constructing due to the bureaucracy surrounding the CDF. This has led to pupils learning under the trees. Now, due to the strong wind and rainfall, a tree under which the pupils learn from fell and almost killed a teacher and pupils.

Madam Speaker, this matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.  

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear! Quality!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Hon. Members, we have a lot of work today. Hon. Member for Petauke Central, your matter is not admitted. You are advised to liaise with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. In the meantime, I would urge you to get in touch with our Journals Department, just to help you understand this issue, so that it does not appear like I am just rejecting your matter of urgent public importance.

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

SINKING FUND ACCOUNT

96. Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

1. whether there is any money in the Sinking Fund Account that was opened for redeeming the Eurobonds; and
2. if there is no money in the account, why.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) set up the Sinking Fund in 2015 for the purpose of financing the repayments or redemption or purchase before maturity of the three Eurobonds that attain maturity in 2022, 2024 and 2027, with the corresponding commercial debts of US$750 million, US$1 billion and US$1.25 billion, respectively.

Madam Speaker, since May, 2018, the Government has been setting aside financial resources towards the accumulation of funds in the Sinking Fund for the exclusive purpose of retiring the commercial debt by the maturity dates.

Madam Speaker, as of 15^th October, 2022, the balance in the Sinking Fund was US$10,380,405.22. Due to the constrained financial envelope, the Government has not been able to accumulate sufficient funds in the Sinking Fund Account.

Madam Speaker, funds in the Sinking Fund Account have not been utilised because of the ongoing debt service standstill on non-multilateral debt obligations, including Eurobond holders, after finalisation of the debt restructuring agreements with respective creditors.

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, it is, indeed, a very sad story to hear that we have really struggled to put funds in the Sinking Fund, exposing us to a situation where the Eurobond which matured in 2022 is still outstanding and we are supposed to pay. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether we are now up to date in terms of coupon payments and what will happen to the principal amount that fell due this year?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, we have not been paying the coupon payments. Alternatively understood, those are interest payments, but the technical terminology is coupon payment. We have not been servicing those and, similarly, when they became due, we did not pay. The reason for that is once it was discovered that Zambia was debt unsustainable or debt ridden, as part of the process towards debt relief, an agreement was made at the international level for a so-called debt service standstill. A debt service standstill simply means that you do not service the debts, except those owed to multilateral institutions. These other debts will only be serviced once we get to the point where the debt of Zambia has been restructured, agreed with creditors and then the remnants of that debt will get serviced. So, for now, there is no debt service on this type of debt.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanyama, it is your question. Do you have any supplementary question?

Mr Chinkuli: Madam Speaker, you will agree with me that this account was opened for a particular purpose and being in the public domain, it is just fair that the people of Zambia know what is in that account. As a result of that, I want to hear from the hon. Minister if at all this account is serving its intended purpose.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I can liken this situation to somebody who goes to borrow money to buy a car, say a Mercedes Benz, on terms. The terms would be that every month, he pays K40,000 towards the redemption of this debt. So, every month K40,000 has to be paid, but then, instead of this debtor putting aside K40,000 every month, he/she puts aside say K1,000.

Madam Speaker, clearly, with that kind of financial provision right from the very start, there was no seriousness into making financial provisions to service the debt. How do you go and borrow US$13 billion and because problems have emerged, you only put US$10 million on the side. You borrow billions and billions, but you only put aside US$10 million, and this is like putting aside K1,000 when you should be putting aside K40,000. So, there was no seriousness and this was just a cosmetic measure to create an impression that something was being done to dismantle the debt.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I am not sure I heard the exact amount that is in that account because it looks like the hon. Minister is skirting around that issue. However, my question is: Since the Sinking Fund is a national undertaking and the new Government inherited that initiative, do we see the Government continuing on the same path and sustaining this fund and if so, how? In the last two Budgets that the hon. Minister presented, I am not sure I heard any allocation that was made for this fund or where we will be saving funds for the Sinking Fund? Is the new Government abandoning this initiative or is it continuing –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, it is one question per hon. Member. Just ask one question and not several questions. I think I heard three or more questions. Ask one question which you would like the hon. Minister to address.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Minister has gotten what I am driving at. The point is that I made a sweeping statement to the effect that I did not hear him state how much is in this fund, but that is not my question. My question is: Is the Government abandoning this sink or will it continue with this fund because we have not heard any pronouncements, unless I missed that part from the two Budgets? That is my question.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, when I read the statement, I said there is US$10.4 million in the Sinking Fund against outstanding debts, if we exclude the multilaterals, of roughly US$10 billion. Now, the substantive question is: Have we abandoned this initiative of putting aside money for the debt? I think that is the question, is it not?

Mr B. Mpundu indicated assent.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the answer is that at the time when these debts were being acquired, the purported solution was to be putting aside money. Where we are now, and given the level of debt, putting aside little monies does not address the issue of our excessive indebtedness. The answer to the problem of where we are now is what the Government is already undertaking. In other words, we are taking steps towards debt restructuring. Debt restructuring means that some loans may be written off, some may be stretched over a period of time and for some, the interest rate may be lowered or a combination of all these measures. That is a more effective way of dealing with the excessive debt, other than putting aside any little amount of money that we would be making. So, the real answer to where we stand now, is to restructure the debt.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, my understanding is that the Sinking Fund was created in order to help liquidate the three Eurobonds, which are US$750 million, US$1 billion and US$1.5 billion. The hon. Minister stated that as of 15^th October, 2022, there is only a paltry, I should say, US$10.4 million in this account. What methodology is the Government using to drop monies into the Sinking Fund?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the answer is really what I just said a few minutes ago. Given the level of indebtedness on our shoulders, the question is: How do you resolve it? One approach that was taken was by putting money aside so that when debt matures, we have sufficient money or close to sufficient money to pay it off. In all honesty, that was not done because the K10 million compared to billions is nothing. The next question is that: If the sinking fund is no longer a viable solution towards debt repayment, what then is the viable option? The viable option which I just described is that of getting the debt restructured. To get the debt restructured, we need to be on the International Monetary Fund (IMF) programme. The IMF will then be telling the creditors that we owe money, that there is no way Zambia can pay you all this money and so, let us negotiate how we can reduce the debt. That is the whole purpose of the programme. Once the programme is in place, the issue that would need discussing with the creditors is agreeing to restructure the debt or not, although that was already covered and they agreed to restructure the debt. The next issue we are headed to is the extent of the debt relief. That is where we are now. As I said earlier on, this is a more viable and realistic approach to resolving the debt problem compared to putting aside the little monies.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, in the 2022 Budget, there was money allocated to pay off the $750 million Eurobond. Since did not pay it off, I want to know where that money has gone to.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, that money was put on the budget, on the understanding that $750 million would come in the budget by way of borrowing. Once they have borrowed, pay. In other words, you borrow from A to pay B. To the extent that there is a debt stand still, as I indicated, where we have agreed that debt service will not be made until after debt restructuring, it means that the requirements to go and borrow from A to pay B did not arise because B is not going to be paid. Therefore, that money was not borrowed and therefore it was also not spent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte) Madam Speaker, I do not know if you that the hon. Minister Finance and National Planning continues to mentor me. He has a lot of influence on my development.

Madam Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has taken a different approach in maintaining the sinking fund, it now remains an administrative burden to the Government. What are you going to – Now that you have taken a different approach which is restructuring of debt, – By the way, let me thank the Minister of Finance and National Planning for the clarification he has made to the nation today because it is very important that the people –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are supposed to ask a supplementary question.

Mr Kafwaya: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: So ask a supplementary question. If you have checked our order paper today, we have a lot of work to do. Please go straight to the question.

Mr Kafwaya: Absolutely, Madam.

Madam Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has taken a different route of debt restructuring as opposed to keeping money to pay the debt. What is he going to do to remove this administrative inconvenience of having a sinking fund which will not be useful? He has to take it out of his books and free resources to work on things that are more productive than having those numbers.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am not sure whether I would call that an administrative inconvenience because it still remains money belonging to the Republic of Zambia. It is up to us, as a nation, at some point in time to decide what to do with it. For now, since it is in dollars, it constitutes part of the foreign exchange reserves for Zambia and, therefore, it is available for the general use of the Bank of Zambia in case of currency intervention or something like that. It is our money and it is safe.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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BILLS

SECOND READING

THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES (Amendment) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the introduction of the Securities Amendments Bill No. 23 of 2022 is intended to align the operations of the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) with the risk based frame work introduced under the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Section 3 and ensure that the commission effectively and efficiently undertakes a supervisory mandate. The risk based approach to anti money laundering, counter terrorist financing and counter proliferation finance is necessary–

Madam Speaker: Sorry hon. Minister, we are looking at the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Service Bill not the Securities Bill. I do not know if I heard you reading the Securities Amendments.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I apologise. I thought this is what was announced.

Madam Speaker: I announced the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services Bill.

Dr Musokotwane: I apologise and I will start afresh, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the introduction of the Zambia Institute for Banking and Financial Service Bill No.22 of 2022 is intended to establish the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services under an Act of Parliament in order to provide a legal framework for Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services as a training institution and a qualification awarding body to be registered under the Higher Education Authority and the Zambia Qualification Authority, as required by law.

Objectives of the Bill

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services Bill, 2022 aims to achieve the following objectives:

1. provide for the registration of banking and financial service practitioners and regulate their practice and professional conduct;
2. continue the existence of the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services (ZIBFS) and provide for its functions;
3. promote the banking and financial services profession; and
4. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Rationale of the Bill

Madam Speaker, the ZIBFS is a professional body and training institute, which has been in existence for thirty years now as a society having been registered in 1992 under the Societies Act Chapter 119 of the Laws of Zambia. The institute was established with a view of providing knowledge and enhancing professionalism in the banking and financial services sector through a code of professional conduct. It is worth noting that all professionals involved in the on-boarding of co-banking and financial services and their professional conduct or misconduct has a direct bearing on the integrity of the financial sector and the economy at large and therefore need to operate in a legal environment that is self-regulatory and self-financing. However, the current registrations and regulation of ZIBFS under the Societies Act gives rise to several risks and challenges in relation to its critical role in the financial business, academic sector and the economy as a whole.

Major Policy Changes for Inclusion in the Bill

Madam Speaker, the Bill will provide for a legal framework of the institute’s operations and to standardise banking and financial services practices among its members. Among the key functions, the Bill provides for advancing the banking and financial services profession as well as searching and enforcing professional standards for all practitioners:

Regulating Entry and Setting Standards

The Bill provides for regulating the entry to the banking profession by determining the standards of knowledge and skill needed for a person who intends to be a member of the banking and financial services profession. The Bill also provides for the setting of standards for bankers and financial services professionals by way of carrying out professional conduct examinations for the registration of members and awarding of certificates in respect of the qualification acquired; and

Maintaining Professional Ethics

The Bill provides for maintaining professional ethics through sanctions of the erring members in order to maintain and ensure the observance of ethical standards and professional conduct among professionals of the banking and financial services professions in the country.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, creating the ZIBFS under an Act of Parliament will enable the institute to operate under a legal framework with a structured governance system based on self-regulation. This will ensure compliance with best international practices within the banking and financial services sector. The Bill, once enacted, will ensure professionalism and service delivery and allow the institute to accredit its professional qualifications on the national qualification framework and have a pool of banking and financial services professionals that adheres to the industry ethics and code of conduct.

Considering the critical intermediary role that the banking and financial services play in an economy, the ministry supports the Bill and is confident that with its enactment will contribute to enhance integrity and stability of the banking and financial services industry and ultimately, lead to a competitive and resilient financial sector that contributes to sustained economic growth.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, the Planning and Budgeting Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services Bill, 2022, pursuant to its mandate as set out in Standing Order No. 195 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021.

Madam Speaker, before I delve into much detail, allow me, to apprise this august House of a brief background of the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services (ZIBFS). The institute was registered as an autonomous training institute under the Societies Act, Chapter 199 of the Laws of Zambia, thirty years ago in 1992. Over the years, the institute has been a key player in higher education as it offers training in banking and finance fields, in collaboration with higher education institutions.

Madam Speaker, regrettably, despite this important role, the training programmes offered by the institute are not recognised and accredited by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) because the institute does not meet the relevant requirements stipulated in the Higher Education Act No. 4 of 2013. It is in this spirit, inter alia, that the Zambia Institute of Banking and Financial Services Bill is before this House, to grant the institute the mandate to produce qualifications that will be recognised by the HEA through the enactment of this Act.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that your Committee comprehensively scrutinised the Bill, and I, therefore, wish to place on record that the Bill was received with mixed reactions from stakeholders.

Without any doubt, Madam Speaker, most stakeholders underscored the role of the institute in contributing to the attainment of higher education and its meaningful role in unlocking the growth potential and economic development of the country. However, they feared that some provisions of the Bill would cause unwarranted duplication of functions with those of key regulatory players such as the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Pensions and Insurance Authority.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I wish to categorically state that based on the submissions from stakeholders and the deliberations that ensued, your Committee is not in favour of some of the salient provisions of the Bill and therefore, does not support it. It is my hope that this august House has acquainted itself with the content of your Committee’s report as I will only highlight a few of the observations.

Madam, your Committee is against the provision for the institute to regulate the conduct of professionals providing banking and co-banking services proposed under Clause 4 (b) of the Bill. By nature, and in the context of the provided definition of “practitioner” and “co-banking services”, the banking sector employs a pool of professionals, some of whom are already regulated by other professional bodies. Granted that the exposure of professionals put a risk on deposits from the public, your Committee is convinced that there is sufficient legislative and regulatory scope that can manage financial crime in the banking and financial services sector.

In light of this, your Committee strongly recommends that:

1. the Bill should recognise the role of key regulatory players namely, the Bank of Zambia, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Pensions and Insurance Authority and ensure that the institute compliments their respective regulatory roles,
2. the Government should leverage the mandate of already established statutory bodies and strengthen collaboration among institutions such as the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) and the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC);
3. the Bank of Zambia should ensure that key industry players such as banks play an essential role in developing, enforcing and maintaining higher professional standards for those who work in banking and financial services; and
4. the wide scope of the definition of the term ‘practitioner’ should be reviewed.

Madam Speaker, lastly, your Committee is concerned about the growing trend in granting inspectorates of professional bodies mandate and power to search premises. Your Committee reckons that the provisions in Clause 47 and 49 are outside the ambit of exceptions in Article 17(2) of the Constitution, which provides for derogation from the protected right to privacy. It is the recommendation of the Committee that more appropriate ways of regulating professionals be identified.

Madam, based on the stated reasons, the observation made by your Committee, as well as the numerous concerns raised by stakeholders, your Committee reiterates that it does not support the Bill.

Madam Chairperson, it is the sincere hope of the Planning and Budgeting Committee that the mover of the Motion; the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, will review the misgivings of your Committee and those of the stakeholders and, to this end, consider deferring or withdrawing the Banking and Financial Services Bill No. 22 of 2022.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Let me bring to the notice of the House that we have a lot of work. Therefore, as you debate, please, bring out the points that have not been brought out. Further, you need not use your whole eight minutes. If you can yield some time to another hon. Member, then we can have as many hon. Members as possible debate.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, as guided, I will speak very briefly.

Madam Speaker, my take on this particular matter is that I am persuaded by the arguments advanced in the report of your Committee. The purpose of Parliament is to provide an oversight role, and your Committees are very important to the extent that once you task them to scrutinise and analyse these Bills, they have occasion to interact with various stakeholders who come with different positions. Of course, looking at the expertise and experience of your Committee, they later come up with a position.

Madam Speaker, the position, in this case, is that your Committee does not support the Bill. I, therefore, wish to agree with your Committee and appeal to the sponsor of this Bill, the mover who is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to consider withdrawing it so that further consultations can be made. When the Bill comes back to this House, it should be at a time that stakeholders would have agreed to it, to ensure that we come up with a law that is functional.

Madam Speaker, one of the functions of the law is to regulate conduct. In this case, it will be to regulate conduct within the banking sector. Given the arguments that stakeholders brought about, it would be a very difficult law to implement going forward if we decided to go ahead and enact it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I want to speak on one or two issues.

Madam Speaker, the Banking and Financial Services Act is meant to guide the Bank of Zambia on which institutions should be regulated as banks or non-financial institutions and not on which member. So, my issue on this Motion is that lawyers and accountants are regulated. Therefore, there is no way bankers cannot be regulated.

Madam Speaker, it is in this country that a Diploma in Banking course was introduced, which is a Zambian tailor-made course for bankers. Eventually, the Copperbelt University (CBU) went on to introduce a Degree in Banking and Finance. So, it is important that as we churn out these professionals from these courses, we regulate their professional ethics and standards for them to provide the much-needed service to this country.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore, do not see why bankers should not be regulated. In essence, all these pieces of legislation which have been mentioned such as the Securities and Exchange Commission Act and the Banking and Financial Services Act do not look at individuals. It is important that we also look at individuals who are working for banks.

Madam Speaker, you find that when a person is working for a bank and they have problems in that bank, they move to work in another bank. So, it is important that, just like us, accountants, and lawyers, bankers are regulated by certain institutions.

Madam Speaker, from my perspective, I support the Bill. I do not agree with the recommendations of the Committee. I think it is important that our colleagues from the banking sector are also regulated, and not just from where they work.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 185 which basically refers to how your Committee minutes and reports should be considered. I will just cite Standing Orders 185(2) and (3), which state:

“(2) A minority report or an expression of opinion shall not be contained in, or annexed to, a report of a Committee.

 (3) A member of a Committee shall not dissent from, or vote against, the recommendations contained in the Committee’s report.”

Madam Speaker, you operate through your Committees and the work that you assign to them is deliberated upon. Your Committees are allowed to interact with various stakeholders. By standard procedure, when a recommendation is brought on the Floor by your Committee to withdraw or defer a particular work or Bill, in this case, we have – because that is where your authority is deposited.

Madam Speaker, are we in order to go against your report’s recommendation, ignore the work that you assigned your Committee to do and continue to debate this Bill without hearing the position the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is going to take in view of the recommendations given by the Chairperson of your Committee?

I seek your indulgence on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I need to consult with the Clerks at the Table.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the Standing Order No. 185(2) and (3), which the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu has referred to is well noted. However, this particular Standing Order does not stay or bar us from continuing with the debate.

So, what will happen is that hon. Members will give their views and the hon. Minister as he responds at that time after taking into consideration the views that have been expressed by the Committee and the hon. Members of this House, on the Floor of this House, he will respond and make a decision in his best judgement, whether to withdraw or to defer the Bill. So, we will leave that to the best judgment of the hon. Minister, taking into consideration what the hon. Members are going to state.

So, we can make progress.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, as I support the recommendation of your Committee, I wish to mention that laws are meant to govern people. Laws are not supposed to conflict each other. As the Chairperson has stated, the hon. Member cited the five registrations. He said that if this law is passed, it is going to conflict other laws and it will become very difficult to implement it. 

Madam Speaker, with regards to managing it, I am not trying to draw you into the debate as a renounced lawyer, but you know that the court will have difficulties, in case of litigation, to interpret a law that is conflicting five different pieces of legislation.

Madam Speaker, this House also works on presidency. I remember in 2013, the case of the appointment of Madam Lombe Chibesakunda as Chief Justice of Zambia, when your Committee recommended the withdrawal or deferment of that case. That case was gladly withdrawn despite the Patriotic Front (PF) then, having numbers because that was the procedure. That case was withdrawn and the House did not proceed with it. We know that the Committee and the stakeholders, who will be regulated by this law, sit and deliberate on behalf of the Speaker. So, if the players in the sector say that they do not support this law but we go ahead and pass it, whom is it going to regulate, since it is contradicting the Financial Intelligence (FININT), the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Banking and Financial Regulation Act, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), and the pensions insurance scheme? That will be another complication.

Madam Speaker, I remember in 2016, when we were passing the Constitution of Zambia, Cap 2, when my brother, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development was on this side (left) of the House, said, “Mr Speaker, I have taken two shots”. We do not want to have a similar complication where after the Constitution is passed, it becomes a debate of the public in trying to interpret what that means in relation to the Act. This is an Act of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, without consuming all the minutes that have been allocated to me, I want to say that I fully support the report of your Committee and the position taken by your Committee going by the presidency that this House had set before on the appointment of Justice Chibesakunda as Chief Justice, when your Committee rejected and recommended for the withdraw of the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for the opportunity given to the people of Luena to contribute on this very important matter on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, the people of Luena will not speak for long. They are noting one or two issues but are overly in agreement with the recommendations of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, the banking industry is like the mining industry and not a profession. Therefore, we have relevant pieces of legislation in this case. We have a very comprehensive Banks and Financial Services Act, which deals with the appointment of senior staff in the banking sector. The process of appointing somebody as Chief Financial Officer (CFO) in a bank is a very long one. It is not dealt with the way the process of appointing somebody in any other organisation is done, no matter how big it is. As a consequence of this Banking and Finical Services Act, that is very comprehensive.

Madam Speaker, so, I think many of the issues that the hon. Minister needs to take into account have already been highlighted in the report. However, the challenge that the people of Luena would like to note is that the proposed Bill is seemingly overarching across issues to do with the bank management, which is already dealt with in the Banks and Finical Services Act, the appointment of senior staff and even their conduct.

Madam Speaker, maybe, there is need to have a relook at this particular Bill, so that further consultations can be carried out and then, we can decide on whether this sector requires a Bill or maybe, an arrangement similar to the Institute of Directors, as it is now, is still sufficient. Interms of pieces of legislation to handle and regulate the people who work in the banking industry, there are many of them already being regulated by their respective professional bodies. Many accountants and lawyers work in the banks and they belong to the respective professional bodies that regulate them. One thing we probably do not want to do is to over regulate the conduct of individuals as that can become counterproductive.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I want to submit on behalf of the people of Luena.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I want to thank you so much for this opportunity to wind up debate. I also want to thank all the hon. Members who have debated and expressed their views. To that, I must also add the Chairperson of your Committee that examined this Bill.

Madam Speaker, the Bill had well-intended intentions because of the fact that the people working in the industry that look after our money have to make sure that they adhere to certain ethics and standards, and this is what the Bill was trying achieve. If we do not do that in this very complicated world, the chances of people losing large amounts of money can be quite substantial.

Madam Speaker, however, I have heard the views of your Committee and also, the hon. Members who have debated. This Government is different from the one that was there, ...

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: ...where the Committee then, had clearly recommended not to proceed with the Constitution of Zambia for 2016. However, the Government of the day, using the arrogance of numbers decided to proceed. Today, there are so many issues including the fact that these hon. Members (hon. Opposition Members), like ourselves, want to be back in the councils.

However, when we told them then not to proceed, they said no, and today, here we are. So, as a listening Government that does not want to repeat the mistakes of those across the streets, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane:… we have decided to consult further and present the Bill in the next session of Parliament. I am told this is called deferment. So, the intention is to bring it back in the next session after we have made further consultations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

The Bill, by leave, accordingly withdrawn.

THE SECURITIES (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the introduction of the Securities (Amendment) Bill No. 23 of 2022 in the National Assembly, is intended to align the operations of the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) with the risk-based framework introduced under the Financial Intelligence Centre Act and ensure that the commission effectively and efficiently undertakes its supervisory mandate. The risk-based approach to anti-money laundering, counter-terrorist financing and counter-proliferation financing is necessary in protecting capital markets investors, regulating the activities of capital market operators and ensuring the orderly growth, integrity and development of the capital markets.

Madam Speaker, the Securities (Amendment) Bill No. 23 of 2022 aims to achieve the following objectives:

1. implement a risk-based approach in the supervision and regulation of capital markets;
2. revise the supervisory powers of the commission;
3. provide for the appointment of an auditor by a licensed person;
4. revise the powers of the Capital Markets Tribunal;
5. provide for the immunity of a member of the Capital Markets Tribunal and a member of staff of the tribunal and a member of staff of the commission;
6. provide for the regulation of a private fund; and
7. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to the foregoing.

Rationale of the Bill

Madam Speaker, the amendments to the Securities Act are consequential following the Financial Intelligence Centre Act amendment. The proposed Securities (Amendment) Bill addresses and encompasses the vetting of beneficial owners of capital market operators and enhancement of enforcement powers to effectively deal with predicate offences for money laundering, combating financing of terrorism, combating proliferation financing information, disclosure requirements that could be used to detect whether an entity has been involved in illegal activities, including money laundering, terrorism financing and proliferation financing, among others. Therefore, the provisions that have been proposed for amendment are meant to facilitate the implementation of a risk-based supervisory framework for money laundering, terrorism financing and proliferation financing in the securities sector. This will entail that the commission as a supervisory authority under the Financial Intelligence Centre Act is effective in discharging its functions and plays its role in the fight against money laundering, terrorism financing and proliferation financing.

Major Policy Changes or Inclusions in the Bill

Madam Speaker, the Bill will provide for:

1. Risk-Based Supervision in the Capital Markets: The risk-based supervision in the capital markets is not provided for under the current Securities Act with regard to the vetting of beneficial owners of securities businesses. In addition, there is no provision for a risk-based supervisory approach for both anti-money laundering, counter-terrorist financing and counter-proliferation financing and securities regulation. Adopting a risk-based supervision is in line with international best practice and will ensure that resources are focused on areas that are most susceptible to money laundering and financing terrorism in the capital markets. Additionally, the commission, as a supervisory authority under the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, will be more effective in discharging its functions in fighting money laundering, terrorism financing and proliferation financing; and
2. Immunity for Capital Markets Tribunal Members: The Bill also provides for the immunity of members of the Capital Markets Tribunal and members of staff of the tribunal and members of staff of the commission in order for them to discharge their duties effectively.

Madam Speaker, the ministry is confident that the enactment of this Bill will enable the Securities and Exchange Commission and other anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing supervisory authorities to effectively supervise and monitor the implementation of anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing obligations by reporting entities. Further, it will revise the supervisory powers of the commission to implement an effective risk-based supervisory framework for the securities sector in Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, the Planning and Budgeting Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Securities (Amendment) Bill No. 23 of 2022 pursuant to its mandate as set out in Standing Order No. 195 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders 2021.

Madam Speaker, let me indicate from the outset that while most of the stakeholders who made submissions on the Bill supported it, they did so with many reservations. In this regard, your Committee is not in support of the proposed amendments.

Madam Speaker, in spite of the foregoing, your Committee takes cognisance that securities are important as they provide companies a chance to raise capital. In this regard, many businesses avoid taking out business loans and hence turn to securities as an option. Consequently, debt and equity securities are popular because of the benefits they provide.

Madam Speaker, capital markets, which are the main platform on which securities are traded, require a sound and progressive legal framework which responds to changing trends. Your Committee is aware that the amendment of the Securities Act No. 41 of 2016 envisages achieving this. However, your Committee believes that some provisions of the Securities (Amendment) Bill No. 23 of 2022 are not in the best interest of the markets due to the numerous concerns raised by stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, and considering that hon. Members have had sight of the report, I will only highlight a few of the concerns. While commending the Government for taking steps to amend the Securities Act so as to enable it respond to the changing trends, your Committee expressed grave concern that there was a lack of wide consultation, especially among the market players. Your Committee recommends that the Government should consider withdrawing or deferring the Bill so as to allow for wider consultation with the many market players whom the Bill will directly impact.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes that one of the things that Clause 6 seeks to expand is the supervisory function of the commission. The Committee also notes that the proposed section, Section 19(b)(2), provides that the commission shall take supervisory action which may include taking possession of a capital market.

Madam Speaker, the Committee observes that taking possession is not defined in the Act and no clear timeframes for possession are provided. While the committee notes that taking possession of a business, which is poorly performing to the detriment of customers in the financial market, by a regulator, for instance the Bank of Zambia, is a common practice, it is of the view that the commission should focus on ensuring compliance with set regulatory requirements as opposed to having unfettered powers to close a business or company. 

Madam Speaker, the Committee, therefore, recommends that the commission should create a process or terms of reference for transferring to one competitor as opposed to the other. This will create fairness and transparency around the process of transfers. Preferably, the entire proposal should be deleted as it does not encourage market growth and development.

Madam Speaker, the committee observes that Clause 8 seeks to provide for approval of directors and the senior management appointed by clearing and settlement agencies. The Committee is of the considered view that the requirement is not in tandem with the provision of the Companies Act No. 10 of 2017 and respective articles of association for the various capital market players.

Madam Speaker, while the proposal is a necessary safeguard in combating money laundering and financing terrorism, subjecting the appointment of directors and senior management to the commission’s approval will interfere with the day-to-day operations of the company.

Madam Speaker, the Committee, therefore, recommends that the commission provides the minimum qualifications for the directors and senior management to be appointed in terms of the guidelines and not an arbitrary determination of fitness, which may be subjective.

Madam Speaker, the Committee observes, with concern, the proposal under Clause 19 to provide immunity for members and staff of the tribunal. The proposed section, Section 195 (a), provides for several sensitive matters which the tribunal would preside over. The Committee is of the view that the provision may lead to a capital market tribunal and the staff avoiding to take responsibility of their actions.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, the Committee recommends that immunity should not be absolute and that the commission should provide for procedures for lifting immunity. This will help to ensure that the Act is fair and that members of staff can be held accountable for their actions.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me place on record the Committee’s gratitude to all stakeholders for their oral and written submissions on the Bill. Further, the Committee thanks your office and the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and services rendered to the committee during the consideration of this Bill.

Madam Speaker, lastly, the Committee strongly urges the Government to consider withdrawing or deferring the Securities (Amendment) Bill No. 23 of 2022 for further public consultation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you and I thank the Chairperson of the Committee for that report.

Madam Speaker, it is very clear that the report of the Committee raised a number of concerns. Going by what the hon. Minister did in the previous report and in the name of objectivity, good order and consistency, he was magnanimous. He projected a good image of his Government when it comes to listening. I think, even in this case, he will not find it difficult to withdraw the Bill.

Madam Speaker, like you indicated, there is a lot of business on the order paper to be transacted. I, therefore, call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to act consistently and withdraw the Bill so that we can look at other business.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you. I must declare that I am the member of Planning and Budget Committee –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, if you are a member of the Committee, it means you have discussed the Bill sufficiently and you have been adequately represented by your chairperson.  We want to preference to the hon. Members who are not members of the committee to air their views.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I have very few remarks and I agree with the Leader of the Opposition and, of course, commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for being magnanimous to accept the shortcomings.

Madam Speaker, my only misgiving or where I have a challenge is that the Government does not operate in a void. Every other time the ministry comes up with a Bill, the House expects technocrats at the ministry to have done sufficient consultations and to not allow the embarrassment of the hon. Minister. Clearly, when we waste much resource on preparations of these Bills, it should not lead us to having the hon. Minister throw out, defer or completely do away with the Bill when we would have wasted time. Parliament and the Government are entirely wasting time.  

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, perhaps, needs to do a lot of work to censure his technocrats to do more consultation in their work because when we come up with these laws, they are not going to be operating in a void. There are many stakeholders who should be engaged so that we do not become a laughing stock when we bring matters in the House.

Madam Speaker, let me end by commending the hon. Minister for showing leadership by acknowledging that there is a shortcoming in the Bills that have been presented. I think that in agreeing with the Leader of the Opposition, Parliament should not be made to waste time.

Madam Speaker, I think this Bill must be done away with.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to our Standing Order 65.

Madam Speaker, the role of Parliament is to do an oversight role by providing checks and balances. When a Bill is brought here, it is not mandatory that it is going to pass through. If it is withdrawn or deferred, it does not mean that we are wasting people’s money or the hon. Minister is embarrassed. Is the hon. Member, who is supporting what the Committee did, in order to say the hon. Minister is being embarrassed when we are just doing our work with the hon. Minister?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, when a Bill is brought to Parliament, of course, it is supposed to be processed. It is passes through a process. The Bill will either be allowed to go through, to be withdrawn or to be deferred. There is no wasting of time because we are also doing our work and it is part of the process. The hon. Member is out of order since he said we were wasting time and taxpayers’ money.

From the general debate, I think it will be safe at this time to call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to windup debate.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, this Bill is not being withdrawn…

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Dr Musokotwane: …because it is a very important Bill. As we have heard, the most important aspect of this is that of fighting laundering of money.

Madam Speaker, money is laundered in different ways. One of those is through securities. A security is basically a share or debenture or something like that. These are instruments that have been used for money laundering. Therefore, our bringing of this Bill here is because it is part of what this country has already agreed to that we are not going to tolerate money laundering or anything of that sort. So, in the spirit that it has been presented, I see no reason why it should be withdrawn. I heard people saying that there were no sufficient consultations. There were there. Various regulators were consulted and agreed to this Bill. Market players were consulted and they agreed with the Bill. The Ministry of Justice, I believe, consulted stakeholders in three meetings. They agreed with the Bill. So, let us not make it a habit just because one Bill was withdrawn –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

There is a point of order by the Leader of the Opposition in the House. What is your point of order?

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has decided to proceed with the Bill, I think it denies the other hon. Members of the House an opportunity to debate the contents of the Bill so that his response is comprehensive. Ordinarily, we thought the hon. Minister was going to be consistent with the decision he made earlier by following what the recommendations of the Committee were. However, in this particular case, and as usual, he changes position and took a different position altogether. I, therefore, submit that other hon. Members be allowed to debate so that the hon. Minister is given an opportunity to respond comprehensively.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I was also of the view that what happened previously would happen. That is why I curtailed the debate. So, since the Bill is not being withdrawn, I think, I will need to allow some other hon. Members to debate, just a few hon. Members, and then the hon. Minister can respond and then we can follow the processes. Sorry, we have to go back.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to add a voice to this important Bill.

Madam Speaker, more often than not, we believe that over-regulation is the way to go, not knowing that as you over-regulate, you are stifling growth and actually disabling the capacity of your economy and the country to move forward. It is very unfortunate that we have to debate this Bill in this particular fashion.

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report is very explicit. The chairperson of your Committee has highlighted issues that needed to be taken back and be deliberated upon before the Bill could be brought back to this House. Unfortunately, the hon. Minister has decided to take a very antagonistic position, as usual. That is very unfortunate.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, that is very unfortunate because you have guided and said very clearly that when your Committee brings a report, that report is no longer a Committee’s report, but yours. All us seated in this House, regardless, have got a solemn duty to protect and defend it.

Madam Speaker, we call upon witnesses from various disciplines to come and help us interrogate the Bills, appointments and all various kinds of assignments that Parliament would like them to help with. What message are we going to be sending to those honourable witnesses who come to help us interrogate such matters as Bills and appointments if we do not deal with this particular issue and be able –

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Order!

There is a point of order from the chairperson of the Committee. What is your point of order?

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, I raise on this point of order according to our Standing Order No.65 (b). Yes, I recognise that I am the chairperson for this Committee. Is the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor in order to insinuate that our duty here as Parliament is not to go against the report when in 2018, the hon. Minister of Finance then, Mrs Margaret Mwanakatwe, brought a Bill to this House which was seeking to replace the Value Added Tax (VAT) with the Sales Tax. The Committee then recommended that the Sales Tax was not a good Bill to bring in Parliament. That report is here in Parliament.

Madam Speaker, we know that in 2018, the PF was in power, my hon. Colleague there debating was a member of this House. The Sales Tax was brought to a vote, and because the hon. Members worked on the numbers, the Sales Tax Bill went through.

Hon. PF. Members: What is your point of order?

Mr Chaatila: Now, Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to contradict himself by indicating that whatever Bill comes here must be supported according to the recommendations?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I think, what we need to do here is to debate. If there is a point that one hon. Member wants to bring in rebutting another hon. Member’s point, it is better to bring it through a debate not through a point of order.

May the hon. Member for Kawambwa proceed, but as we do that, let us be aware of time. I had requested that we do not repeat.

Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, we are always guided by your Office through the Chair that when we debate, we need to be factual. We are still dealing with VAT in this country. The only reason we are still dealing with VAT is that the report that is being referred to about the Sales Tax was withdrawn.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Once I have made a ruling, let us not re-open the debate. Can you pay attention to the Motion. Concentrate on the Motion hon. Member.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. It is very unfortunate that we can have a chairperson who, on one hand would want to come and tells us to say support him, the Speaker and on the other hand, he wants to cower and hide under the chairs and say no, that is not what he meant. The report is very clear. There is no way, and it is unprocedural and unacceptable that a chairperson who can present a report here asking us to support it can now stand up on a point of order and try to go back on his own report. It is unacceptable and that should not –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I have already guided. Please, concentrate on the Motion. I have already ruled and advised that hon. Members should bring out issues and if there are any rebuttals, they should be done through debate. So, there is no need to go back to that issue again and to personally now start debating each other. No, that is not the way to proceed.

Hon. Member, you may proceed and wind up your debate.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, let me wind up my extremely good debate.

Laughter

Mr Chilangwa: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning earlier on alluded to the fact that the New Dawn Government is now copying from our good way of doing things, especially when it comes to constitutional matters.

Madam Speaker, if you recall, there was a debate on the Constitution in this House, and our colleagues from the United Party for National Development (UPND) rose and almost broke that leopard, one of the symbols of the strength of Parliament. They said that the Patriotic Front (PF) needed not change even a coma or anything in Draft Constitution. So, I totally agree that the Chairperson of your Committee is on firm ground. He interacted with the Committee, stakeholders, professionals and institutions. Those people and institutions were on firm ground to say that there are some things in this Bill which need to be looked at.

We, therefore, appeal to the conscious of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning: “We are with you and are going to support you as long as you bring back a refined document that can meet the aspirations of the people of Zambia so that we do not stifle the development of the economy and the growth of the country in general. We are on firm ground, and we are going to support you.”

Madam Speaker, I support your Committee’s report and its recommendation.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, let me place on record that the people of Mongu Central support the hon. Minister’s stance on this Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Amutike: Madam, it is the considered view of the people of Mongu Central that this issue was not properly, meticulously and methodically examined.

Laughter

Mr Amutike: As such, we want to ensure that the hon. Minister’s stance is supported.

Madam Speaker, the issues that the Bill raises are of critical importance. Issues of money laundering are of paramount importance to this country and the entire world. Most crimes that are being committed now are due to illegal money movements. Therefore, we must do whatever it takes, as urgently as possible, to curb this trend.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Amutike: When I drive around Lusaka, I see many filing stations mushrooming all over and begin to wonder where the money is coming from. This Bill seeks to establish the movement of money, and it is very important that we do not delay it. It is important that we curb illegal money movement in this country.

Madam Speaker, if you look around in the world, most crimes that are being committed are due to money laundering. We cannot afford to go that route. Zambia has been a peaceful country, and we must maintain and protect that. Therefore, the people of Mongu Central support the hon. Minister’s stance.

Madam Speaker, I submit that I will support the hon. Minister when we vote.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

We will have one more debater.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make a few comments on the Bill on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, let me put it very clearly that we are not in contest. This is a House of procedures and rules. I am sure that you, Madam, are equally taken aback because I could see that the spirit of the earlier ruling to call upon the hon. Minister to conclude the debate was with the view that the hon. Minister was being magnanimous. We do not take that as him being embarrassed. That is as it should be because this institution has to play its role.

Madam Speaker, your Chairperson made one key submission that Clause 8 of the proposed Bill seeks to provide for approval of directors and senior management appointed by clearing and settlement agencies. Your Committee was of the considered view that this requirement is not in tandem – I want my colleagues to hear this very clearly – with the provisions of the Companies Act No. 10 of 2017 and respective Articles of Association for the various capital market players. So, here lies the problem.

Madam Speaker, it is our role, as legislators, to make sure that as we legislate, we do not pass Bills that are conflicting. That is our core role here. So, this very important issue must not be ignored. By allowing the Bill to proceed with this observation, we are saying that let us allow laws to be conflicting. Who are we putting into challenges? It is the people who have the responsibility to interpret these laws, and that is the Judiciary. So, what are they going to say? We are not playing our role. We do not want to be part and parcel of a legislature that will be passing laws that are conflicting.

I am not trying to draw you, Madam Speaker, into this debate, but you have been one of those who have been interpreting laws and you know how much you have placed emphasis on Parliament ensuring that the laws that are passed are not conflicting. So, this is a key observation. It will not take much for the hon. Minister to just make sure that he goes back and cleans up the Bill to get it to be in tandem with the Companies Act No. 10 of 2017.

Madam Speaker, it is not in doubt that what you are saying is that it is necessary to combat money laundering and terrorism financing. Yes, my colleagues must know that even now, we have institutions such as the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). This is one institution that exists by an Act of Parliament for the same purpose of dealing with illicit funds, proliferation of funds and procurement of illicit weapons. So, there are institutions that are already in place.

Madam Speaker, under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, there is the Anti-Terrorism Centre, which is working in collaboration with the FIC to deal with this aspect of terrorism and money laundering. The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) has a fully-fledged unit, the Anti-money Laundering Unit, and is collaborating with all …

Mr B. Mpundu rose.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I am sorry to interrupt you. There is an indication from the hon. Member for Nkana for a point of order. What is your point of order?

Mr B. Mpundu: Actually, it is a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

There is no provision in our Standing Orders for a point of procedure. It is either a point of order or nothing at all.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, may I raise a point of order on the House?

Madam Speaker: Order!

What Standing Order are you using to raise a point order on the House?

Mr B. Mpundu: Standing Order No. 65, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, let us allow the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu to debate. Let us not interrupt him.

You may continue, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the point I am trying to drive at is that the institutions I have cited are already performing their roles in ensuring that money laundering and financing of terrorism are checked. So, we are asking the hon. Minister to defer this Bill a bit because the Committee is of the view that, maybe, consultations were not conclusive or exhaustive. There could still be some key stakeholders who could have been left out. So, we are not saying that we do not support these measures that are being proposed, but as I said, we have to make sure, as Parliament, that we do not enact laws that will be conflicting. That is our number one objective.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Zambezi East, what is the point of order?

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I just want you to clarify this issue as Chair. Standing Order No. 65 requires us to be factual in our debate. I realise that the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu who is a good friend of mine and a colleague in the same Committee, seems to suggest that members of the Planning and Budgeting Committee cannot vote against this Bill. What I seem to see here is that, if this went upto the vote, it would mean deciding on the Bill–

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Zambezi East.

Raise your point of order so that I make a ruling.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu in order to seem to suggest that members of the Planning and Budgeting Committee cannot go against this Bill?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member. The issue of understanding Standing Orders still remains a challenge for many of us. We should be taking time to go through our Standing Orders. Hon. Member for Zambezi East, Standing Order No.185(4) provides,

“The Speaker may refer the matter of a member that dissents from, or votes against, a report under paragraph (3) to the Committee on Privileges and Absences or take an appropriate action against such member.’’

So, the hon. Member for Zambezi East, once a Committee makes a stand or recommendation, no member of that Committee can dissent or vote against that. Sorry, just a moment, let me seek guidance from the Clerks at the Table. Let me consult.

Madam Speaker consulted the Clerks at the Table.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I also still have some time to learn the Standing Orders. Unfortunately, Standing Order 184 refers to Sessional Report by Committees. When a report is made and laid on the Table, and the House debates, at the end of the debate, there is a question that is put on whether the report should be adopted or not. It is at that stage that members of that Committee cannot vote against or dissenting against the adoption of that report. However, for this one, the question is different. We are discussing a Bill. The Committee was assigned to go and look at the Bill and talk to stakeholders so that when they come here, they do not table the report. The report is tabled by the Chairperson of the Committee. So, when we are voting, the question is not whether the report should be adopted or not, but it is on whether the Bill should proceed to the next reading. So, what we are doing here we are voting on whether the Bill should proceed to the next reading. So, the hon. Members of that Committee are free to vote with their conscious.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, what is the position?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we seem to have a very big challenge. According to your earlier guidance, unless there is any Standing Order which is speaking to that proposition –

Madam Speaker, let me read Standing Order No. 185(2) which is very clear.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The only problem that we having here is –

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, let me read so that we are on the same page.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

The issue there is that you raised a point and I ruled. Now, we cannot open the same debate. The practice of the House that has been done previously is that on Bills, members of the Committee can vote with their conscious, whether to appoint or not unless if you can show me the standing order which says that members of the Committee cannot vote. I have made a ruling already. Let us just make progress.

Mr Kampyongo: I can read.

Madam Speaker: Hon Member, I know, I appreciate your help. However, I have already made a ruling.

Let us just proceed.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can we have some order. We have been guided by the technocrats.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Once you are guided, you have been guided. Let us make progress.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in winding up debate, I will present two sets of arguments. The first set is what was said by my colleagues on the left. They said that once your Committee makes a recommendation, then you are obliged to follow that. However, the answer is no, because we already gave the example of how we gave–

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Can we have order!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am responding to what some hon. Members said, and your Committee has already made recommendations, so we are–

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, sorry to cut you. To avoid unnecessary debate on that issue, I already made a ruling. Just respond to the issues that were raised by the hon. Members so we can make progress.

Dr Musokotwane: Well noted, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, a number of comments were made. One hon. Member said we are over regulating. We are not over regulating. The issue here is about how to make provisions to fight money laundering using securities. That is all. That is the key point. So, how does that become over regulating? All of us know that money laundering takes place in different formats. For example, some launder through filling stations, houses and securities. So, in light of the fact that we need to fight money laundering, the key element of this Bill is to make sure that securities are not used for money laundering. That is all. That is the essence of the Bill. This is why I felt that it is not necessary, and not even desirable, to withdraw this Bill.

Madam Speaker, there was the issue of the approval of directors. There is nothing strange about this because in financial institutions, this is something that happens all the time. Right now, according to the Banking and Financial Services Act, combined with the Bank of Zambia Act, directors of institutions are approved by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), which is the regulator. So, what is the difference here? If a particular regulator says, in order for us to fight money laundering and supervise it properly, we must approve directors in line with what BoZ does, what is wrong with that? That is entirely in line and I do not see why we should create an issue out of that.

Madam Speaker, the former Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Kampyongo, is right. We belong to an institution called the Southern Africa Anti-Money Laundering Group (ESAAMLG), a regional institution tasked with fighting money laundering in the region. In the same vein, ESAAMLG is a member of a global family fighting money laundering. Every year, the global body assesses countries and asks where the risks of money laundering in a particular country are. A country that fails to comply in making provisions to fight money laundering is given a stamp of disapproval. It becomes a pariah nation where money laundering is not taken seriously. In the past few years, this global body told this country that its laws of fighting money laundering are not adequate and urged it to deal with these issues because it is exposed on the issue of securities. In Zambia, securities are a risk. That is what it told us. It told us that if we do not deal with this issue, it means we will be among the countries on earth that are not fully compliant with the strategies to fight money laundering. So, in pushing this Bill forward, we are merely also responding to the criticism that was put on this country that our strategies of fighting money laundering are not adequate. So, what is the problem?

Madam Speaker, some hon. Members talked about the takeover of institutions. Yes, there is a provision for the takeover of institutions. In fact, the takeover of institutions is not something that is in this Amendment Bill because we are talking about an Amendment Bill here. In the parent Bill, provisions for taking over financial institutions that are not doing well are already there. So, once again, I am surprised to hear that this matter is causing concern.

Madam Speaker, let me state the institutions that were consulted because some hon. Members said we did not consult enough. The institutions that were consulted are BoZ, the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS), the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA)and the Pensions and Insurance Authority (PIA). So, how does one say that there were no consultations?

Madam Speaker, finally, indeed, there may be issues. I do not deny that, and I have taken note of the report of your Committee. Now, this is not the first time that a Bill has had issues in this country. So, the issue is; how do we deal with the issues that are in the Bill? There are two approaches. One approach is that we can sit down together with our colleagues, and they can bring out the issues, and then we can make the amendments.

Madam Speaker, there are so many issues and since we are rising mid-December, or there about, there may not be sufficient time to deal with these numerous issues. What do we do? Under such circumstances, you take the route that I took in the first Bill because then you have enough time to deal with those several issues. However, for now, I have not heard of many issues. I have heard of issues, some of which I have responded to, but for the ones that have remained, hon. Members can bring them up. Since those issues have not been brought up, I can only assume that they are not so many. So, in any case, if those issues are there, let them bring them up, and we will discuss and make amendments because there is a provision for amendments.

Madam Speaker, with that said, I do not see why I should withdraw or defer the Bill. If there are issues, our colleagues can bring them up and we will make amendments. I believe I have clarified the issues very clearly and, therefore, we can move ahead.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday 29^th November, 2022.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The National Pension Scheme (Amendment) Bill, 2022

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 35 – (Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development– K501,398,509)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, continuing with the people of Kanchibiya’s input into the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development allocation under this Budget, we would want to submit that the ministry strongly considers developing and implementing a small and medium-sized enterprises (SME) subcontracting policy aimed at promoting the creation of strong linkages between large enterprises and SMEs whilst governing the contractual agreements between the two. This will not only boost the growth of the SMEs but also result in the growth of value chains, catalysing a more vibrant economy.

Sir, it is also important for the ministry to seriously consider fostering SME innovation and patenting. This is because SME sector competitiveness and exploitation of economies of scale are largely determined by the quality of products developed and the right pricing. In this regard, the presence of innovation, inventions and modifications signify growth in the sector. However, how many of our SMEs are coming up with innovations? What are we doing to create an enabling environment which will establish or encourage SMEs to innovate, modify and ensure that they patent their products?

Mr Chairperson, it is also important that the ministry considers supporting SMEs with the establishment of incubation centres to encourage product design, innovation and patenting and linking institutions of learning to their interventions.

Sir, it is also important for the ministry to consider promoting market access for SMEs at both local and international levels. The unfair competition from cheap imports hinders the growth of the SME sector. The low level of product development and innovation has allowed the importation of items that can be locally produced. An example would be toothpicks. We have bamboo littered and growing everywhere but we are still importing toothpicks from China. Our SMEs can produce these toothpicks.

Mr Chairperson, Zambian caterpillars, vinkubala, are packaged in the United Kingdom (UK) as Organic Mopani Worms and sold at a high price, yet they can be produced and sourced from a constituency like Kanchibiya.

Sir, support to SMEs is critical in protecting them from unfair competition, especially from foreigners. An example would be the aquaculture industry which is being taken over by investors of Asian origin, specifically, the Chinese. Before we know it, the industry will be dominated by foreigners.

Mr Chairperson, it is also important to understand that in order for us to see benefits accruing to this sector, the ministry must take particular interest in ensuring that it implements the objectives and aspirations of the National Trade Policy.

Sir, with those few words, let me say that a laissez-faire attitude will not take us to the promised land.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Zambezi East an opportunity to debate Vote 35, Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development.

Sir, the theme of the Budget talks about economic transformation and job creation, thereby, it is in tandem with what the hon. Minister talked about in his policy statement. This initiative is one that is going to give a boost to economic transformation, especially that it cuts across most underprivileged people who engage themselves in small businesses to ease and improve their lives. It is very cardinal to economic transformation, and, most importantly, economic growth.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

_______

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just trying to make a point that this particular Vote is fundamental to economic transformation in that it offers the country and our citizens an opportunity to create jobs and wealth for themselves, their families and others.

Indeed, the focus of the ministry is on small and medium enterprises(SMEs) and cooperatives development which are a fundamental factor in our economy with regards to commerce even in the remotest parts of our country. Of course, I can see the need to not just concentrate on agricultural cooperatives but to diversify and go in other areas of commerce.

Mr Chairperson, I, however, would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development the fact that he focuses so much on offering training, which most of our people lack. If you look at how our people are handling finances, even those that we disbursed through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), you will see that it is a sorry situation. Some of them simply share the money and sometimes they go into some form of business as a small enterprise without necessarily arriving at what the fund was intended to achieve. Let us not fall in that trap even with the financing that is coming through this ministry. We need to offer training to ensure that these people are well trained and coached on how to run small businesses before they can befit from those funds.

Mr Chairperson, we also need to look at the cost of doing business. This, of course, is everyone’s responsibility; the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and everyone responsible for ensuring that the cost of doing business is actually relooked at. I have heard the President make pronouncements around this area. I just want to give you a snapshot of what it is costing people to come up with a business these days.

Mr Chairperson, one needs to pay K90 to conduct a name search. Registering a company is K1000, paying workers compensation fund affiliation fee costs K1,200 and the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) affiliation fee is K840. For the National Council for Construction, you need to payK750, K2,200 to the Engineering Institute of Zambia, a fire permit isK2,500, a health permit is K1,600 and for a business permit for the local authority, you need K2,000, if it is a local authority like here in Lusaka. Those in mining need to pay for mining minerals trading licences, which is another K2,000. Again, for the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), you need to pay K350 and to open a bank account, one needs not less than K500. All in all, one would be running around and needs logistics, and he/she would have spent K10,000 on fuel. Therefore, at the end of the day, one would have spent about K20,000 to just form this SME at the outset.

Mr Chairperson, much as we make these pronouncements, this is what is causing our people not to venture into such businesses. I am thinking of our people in Nyakulenga. How will they come up with this K20,000 for them to be actually regarded as an SME to participate in this good initiative. So, we need to relook at that.

However, I am very happy with what has been put place, especially the Ministry’s recent disbursements. In the North-Western Province, we have been one of the biggest beneficiaries. Marketers in Zambezi have received the Marketeer Booster Loan of K5000. That is walking the talk. When the President came here to talk about boosting the economy through commerce and SMEs being the targeted people to participate in growing this economy, it sounded as if it was just a story or what some of these people on your left would call nkaniya mu kachasu, no. That was a reality. As I stand here as a representative of the people of Zambezi East, I can attest to the fact that the marketers at our market in Zambezi have received these marketeer booster funds amounting to K5000, something that never used to happen in the Patriotic Front (PF). During the time of the PF, these funds were actually a preserve of the cadres who were toeing the line of the PF.

Mr Chairperson, in this Government, there is no discrimination. I know of some of the people who used to PF supporters in my constituency and they are among recipients of the fund. So, there is no discrimination. As long as you are a citizen, you will benefit from this fund and this is really walking the talk.

Mr Chairperson, for sure, hon. Members of Parliament here can attest to the fact that something is happening in their constituencies and that is countrywide. It is not just in one area; Zambezi East, but everywhere. Of course, it is phased, and it is moving from province to province. I have had a chat with the hon. Minister there. He is doing very well, and I encourage him to continue on the same trajectory. This fund is what will alleviate poverty, which is so rampant in our communities, especially among the underprivileged people who earn a living through selling at the market and have educated their children through this same kind of trading. Some of us here could have come here through the hands of a marketeer who sold little goods at the market. That is why this Vote is so important to our economy and I support it.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: We are all aware that we started debating this Vote yesterday. So, I will just allow Hon. Mwila to debate and then the hon. Minister will wind up debate. We have to make progress. We are behind schedule.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to debate this Vote. I would like to anchor my contribution to debate on this Vote on the strategy that the ministry has with regards to co-operatives. The strategy is to facilitate the growth of viable co-operative in all sectors and guarantee contribution to job creation, which is a very good strategy. Right now, we have many co-operatives that have been registered. I note that in the 2023plan, the target is to register about 9,000 co-operatives.

That is a very big number. We must realise, also, that these co-operatives are hoping to get a share of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) either through grants or loans. They are hoping to also get some of those jobs that are being created in constituencies, like construction and supply.

Mr Chairperson, if the ministry wants to promote these viable co-operatives, it needs to collaborate with other ministries like Local Government and Rural Development so that it creates incentives or an environment that will make the participation of co-operatives easier.

Mr Chairperson, right now, all that co-operatives know is to just have a certificate, sit back and wait to be given an assignment to make desks or a construction project to construct a 1 x 3 classroom block or a wall fence.

Mr Chairperson, we need to harmonise the issue of co-operatives. Under local government, any procurement that is happening, especially under the CDF, is under totally different requirements. We are looking for certificates like Tax Clearance, National Council for Construction (NCC), Workers Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB), the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA); things that co-operatives right now are not even thinking of having. So, when there is a job or a tender announced in the constituency, co-operatives automatically fail to bid. They are now competing with small businesses which have been doing these projects all along.

So, in order to create opportunities for co-operatives to participate in the projects that are happening under the CDF, we need to re-look at the tender and the procurement procedures so that we do not subject these co-operatives to strenuous requirements that definitely make them unqualified to participate. At the end of the day, members of co-operatives come to our offices to say that they are being discriminated against.

Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Minister wants to boost these co-operatives in order for them to participate, especially in the CDF projects, he should liaise with the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and re-look at the requirements for the jobs that are going on. Otherwise, we will remain with these co-operatives just on paper while the works and the money will continue going to medium businesses that have already been in this trade.

Mr Chairperson, this ministry is talking about what is happening at the grassroots regarding small and medium enterprises (SMEs). I agree with the hon. Member for Zambezi East who itemised all those costs that are incurred by SMEs.

Mr Chairperson, my submission is that, if there is any ministry that needs to decentralise and be found at the district level, it is the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development because small business owners cannot afford to travel to Lusaka to know what programmes the ministry has. They cannot afford to travel to Lusaka to get all those registration requirements because that requires money which they do not have.

Sir, there is an urgent need to decentralise this ministry. If it cannot be done now at the district level, it should, at least, be done at the province so that small business owners and co-operative members are able to travel short distances and spend less money to get to know the programmes that are happening; where they can get opportunities in terms of empowerment; and then they can go back to their bases to prepare to compete favourably.

This idea of travelling to Lusaka to get all these certificates and registrations that are required is not helping to grow the SMEs. It is not helping the ministry to achieve the purpose it was created for. So, the hon. Minister must look into the issue of decentralisation and the requirements for procurement so that co-operatives can also compete favourably.

Mr Chairperson, with these comments, I support this Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who have debated the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry. I have taken note of all the positive contributions from them.

Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members spoke on the mode of empowerment. It is the policy of the New Dawn Government to do away with handouts and focus on empowering citizens in a more sustainable way. This means that the ministry will continue to capacity build. We want to make sure that our people are given skills. These programmes will continue so that we can change the mindset of our people. The attitude of not paying back will not be entertained by this Government. We will try by all means to help our people to understand how to do business. That is why this ministry was created.

Mr Chairperson, we will emphasise entrepreneurship and support entrepreneurs. I agree with the suggestion that particular attention be paid to entrepreneurs because they are very important, especially in job creation.

My ministry will encourage and focus on innovation. Our young people; the innovators, will be supported. We will continue to co-ordinate with stakeholders and other ministries because my ministry is cross-cutting. We will make sure that this is encouraged so that we are able to deliver to our people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubanga: Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that the positive contributions from the hon. Members of this august House show that the development of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) and co-operatives is of interest to all well-meaning Zambians. As Minister in charge of SMEs and co-operatives in the country, I will make sure that we get whatever the hon. Members have asked the ministry to do so that we can help our people to actualise their ideas or proposals.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say something regarding the debate by Hon. Kambita. It is important that we ease the way of doing business for our people. The policy on SMEs is underway and very soon, will be able to address all these issues.

Mr Chairperson, skills-training is key. In fact, even for the Marketeer Booster Loans, we have put out a team throughout the country. We are all over this country. The ministry is represented in all the 116 districts. We have staff there who will be able to go round and help our people; even those who are in the markets who have received the Marketeer Booster Loan so that we can build capacity. By the way, the Marketeer Booster Loan is targeted at all Zambians everywhere. All the ten provinces are receiving this Marketeer Booster Loan.

I will give each hon. Member of Parliament the list of the marketeers who have benefited from this programme. So, by next week, hon. Members of Parliament will receive the list of people who have benefited from the empowerment fund in their constituencies. They can also follow them up, help them and incubate them so that they can succeed.

Mr Chairperson, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is extremely important. My ministry is working closely with the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to see what we can do to help our people in the constituencies. Yes, I still want to emphasise on the issue of capacity building because it is very important.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I just want to thank every hon. Member in this august House who has debated and supported the Budget for my ministry.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33 – (Ministry of Commerce. Trade and Industry – K591,197,709)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane) (on behalf of the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mulenga)): Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful for according me this opportunity to present the Policy Statement on Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for Vote 33, Ministry of Commerce. Trade and Industry.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, and foremost, I would like to thank His Excellency the President of Republic for the well-articulated policy statement made to this House on 9^thSeptember, 2022. The President, in his Parliamentary Address whose theme was: “Working Together Towards Social Economic Transformation” emphasised on the need for Government to unlock resources and avenues of investment to ensure sustainable national development. In his words, he said,

“Our focus is been and remains that of transforming our country into an industrialised nation, with the participation of citizens and in partnership with the private sector, to systematically unlock various economic opportunities to deliver inclusive development, jobs and improved livelihoods for our people.”

Mr Chairperson, the ministry stands ready to follow through on these Presidential pronouncements.

Mr Chairperson, once again, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for a comprehensive, inclusive and citizen-centred National Budget address delivered on 30^th September, 2022 under the theme “Stimulating Economic Growth for improved livelihoods.” As you will note, this theme augurs well with my ministry's mandate of job creation, industrialisation, promoting trade and contributing to the economic growth and development.

Performance Review for the Year 2022 for Ministry

Mr Chairperson, allow me at this point, to provide highlights of the ministry's performance for the current financial year. The ministry was allocated a total Budget of K500,900,000 million and a supplementary Budget of K28,500,000 which translated into a total of K529,400,000 during 2022, as compared to K591,000,000 in 2023. From the total approved Budget, the ministry received funds amounting to K490,800,000 as of 31st October, 2022, representing 92.7percent of the total approved Budget. Of the released funds, K473,000,000 was spent representing 96.4 percent of absorption. Once again, I commend the Minister of Finance and National Planning for the high degree of credibility and certainty in the disbursement of funds.

Mr Chairperson, as you are aware, funding was allocated under key programmes as designed in the National Development Plan. The following are the disbursements by the Budget programmes:

Competition and Consumer Welfare

The programme was allocated K84,100,000, the whole amount was released, representing 100 percent. The ministry intensified vigilance in anti-competitive conduct, restrictive business practices, and abuse of dominance. Alongside increased sensitisation programmes, investigations were also undertaken. These activities resulted in the reduction in the anti-competitive behaviour by 24 per cent.

Standards and Quality Assurance

Mr Chairperson, the programme was allocated K92,400,000 of which K92,300,000 has been released as at end of October, 2022, representing 99.9 per cent. The ministry through the Zambia Bureau of Standards (ZABS) in collaboration with the Africa Clean Energy (ACE) with support of Foreign Commonwealth Development Office (FCDO) of the United Kingdom (UK) and International Finance Corporation set up and launched a solar laboratory to test and certify solar panels and products to contribute to cleaner and renewable energy sub-sector.

Industrial and Enterprise Development

Mr Chairperson, ACE with support of Foreign Commonwealth Development Office (FCDO) of the United Kingdom Government and International Finance Corporation set up and launched a solar laboratory to test and certify solar panels and products to contribute to cleaner and renewable energy subsector for a quality and safe environment.

Mr Chairperson, the programme was allocated K315,600,000 of which K 258,800,000 has been released representing 82 percent. Following the signing of the Electric Battery Value Chain agreement, the Zambian Government and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) shall setup centres of excellence at the University of Zambia (UNZA), the Copperbelt University (CBU), other leading universities and research institutions.

Further, the Multi-Facility Economic Zone (MFEZ) on the manufacture of components in the battery-value-chain shall will be established. This transformative entitative is expected to increase economic output, create high-value jobs and business opportunities. The ministry conducted investments both locally and internationally, promoted business linkages, hosted the European Business Forum (EBF), and the Africa Development Forum (ADF).   The ministry continued to employ a number of interventions  included to targeted investment promotion.

Trade Facilitation Promotion

Mr Chairperson, the programme was allocated K14,500,000 of which, K13,600,000has been released on 94 per cent funding. The ministry continued to facilitate for market access for Zambian products under the Africa Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA) agreement and others.

Policy, Legislation and Regulatory Framework

Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, various pieces of legislation were processed and are currently at various levels of completion. Key among these are the Zambia Institute of Marketing Act of 2022, the Zambia Development Agency Bill of 2022, and the Investment Trade and Business Development of 2022. I therefore, wish to thank hon. Members of the House for the commitment in the process of these legislations. 

Programmes to be Implemented from 2023-2025

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has been allocated K591 million. Of this, K377 million is earmarked for grant aided institutions, K196.7 million for donor support to projects while K39.6 million is for recurrent departmental charges. Personal emoluments stand at K21 million and K570,000 being for personnel related emoluments.

Mr Chairperson, the following themes will be followed:

1. competition and consumer welfare; the programme has been allocated K42.2 million, a decrease of K41.9 million. The decrease is due to the re-alignments of the Zambia Metrology Agency’s Budget as it is appropriately suited to standards and quality assurance;
2. standards and quality assurance; the programme has been allocated K152 million, an increase of K59.7 million from last year. The reason for this upward adjustment is the re-alignment of the Zambia Metrology Agency Budget from the programme for competitive and consumer behaviour. The Zambia Metrology Agency and the Zambia Compulsory Standards Agency in pursuit of their mandate to provide technical support as regards measurements and quality assurance will continue their compliance inspections of farming inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and other programmes to ensure compliance to weight and other aspects;
3. industrial and enterprise development has been allocated K237.4 million, a decrease of K51.5 million, the reason being the downward adjustment in donor support;
4. trade facilitation; the programme has been allocated K121.1 million as opposed to K12.7 million last year. The increase is attributed to the proposed establishment of the trade centre at Kasumbalesa Border Post;
5. private sector development; the ministry has allocated K1million towards co-ordination of PPP programmes.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, we remain resolved and committed to promoting and supporting the growth of the industries, trade and competitiveness of the Zambian economy.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to start by acknowledging that unlike last year, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry has migrated two programmes that I have noted and, maybe, the hon. Minister can correct that in his last speech, and that involves co-operatives. There was confusion last year as regards the co-operative component as well the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), especially that they were not reflecting under that ministry, and I guess they have been migrated to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development.

Having said that Mr Chairperson, I note that this ministry’s mandate is to formulate, administer and monitor the implementation of policies in the commerce and trade industry sectors. In the budget, the component of economic zone development and promotion is not taken care of whereas there is an allocation for the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA). I think that in an environment like ours, especially that we are coming from a commandist economy to a liberalised economy, these are supposed to operate as siamese twins. Economic zone development and promotion is amore of a large-scale industry, and the people of Chilubi’s view is that there should have been an allocation to that effect. At some point, the hon. Minister will be winding up debate, and the people of Chilubi would like to learn more about the K530 million, which will go towards transfers and has taken about 89.74 per cent of the Budget. That particular allocation is not matching with the objectives that the ministry intends to achieve.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is a dream facilitator, and I already pointed out that we are coming from a commandist economy to a liberalised economy, meaning that for the informal sector and many others to grow from small and medium scale to a large scale, this ministry is key. If this ministry is key, I note that under trade facilitation and promotion and market access, there is an appreciating amount of K121,101,586. This is welcome, but the allocation for industrial and enterprise development has reduced, meaning this has created a tag of war between the two components. Why I say a tag of war has been created between the components is that when we look at what we are exporting, this ministry is supposed to create more products and promote industrial growth and value addition, so that those products can start competing with copper, which is an outstanding traditional export product in this case.

Mr Chairperson, I know that the hon. Minister referred to the President’s Speech. I also want to refer to what the President said, which is worrying the people of Chilubi. When the President came to Parliament, before the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning read his speech, he widely talked about exporting raw materials such as black carrots, to the European market. So, in view of that particular aspect, championing commerce matters, and if our mindset is on raw materials, we will not grow any industry and this also has a spill over effect on mining. We have remained at the extraction level where we are just extracting raw materials and taking them to different markets thereby creating employment for those markets that we are taking to. This ministry sits on pillar number one, which is about economic transformation as well as job creation. So, if we are to create employment, it means that even our mindset has to match with what we want to achieve.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Chilubi are failing to understand why we are speaking about importing raw materials, but in the Budget, we want to squeeze in something resembling value addition. In the schedule that provides details of the Budget, you will find that value chain is one of the components that has not been catered for in our Budget. So, what is it that we want to achieve if there are still grey areas and they have not been attended to, especially that the President’s Speech is the one which creates the path? In Bemba, we say, “mutanfya nsoka.”  This is what chases dangerous snakes away when we go in the bush to pave way for us.

So, having that particular drive to the economy, we need to take the bull by its horn. In doing so, we need to have a mindset of value addition because all the speeches are talking about raw materials. In the Budget, we want to squeeze in certain components that are so weak to talk about value addition. So, I think that is where we see a mismatch.

Mr Speaker, on that note, the people of Chilubi appreciate the Budget for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry because it has an approach to consumer protection although it has been increased a bit compared to the 2022 Budget. However, consumer protection is something that a developing nation needs especially that we have investors coming through the wind of foreign direct investment (FDI) and these investors need to be protected. On that note, I would like to support the Budget, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this vote.

Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Kanchibiya, I would like to place on record that we are in support of the allocation to this ministry under Vote 33. In particular, we make reference to the cluster strategies under the economic transformation of the National Development Plan Framework to promote value addition and manufacturing, promote enterprise development, and facilitate increased domestic and international trade.

Mr Chairperson, I want to also applaud the increment from K500,927,431 to K591,197,709, as signifying K90.3 million increment. As the people of Kanchibiya, we are concerned and we hope that the hon. Minister will speak to these issues.

Firstly, we notice that economic zones, development and promotion get zero allocation and in this Budget. The people of Kanchibiya would seek to understand this because as a matter of priority, they would seek that one day, there has to be an economic zone in our area. We know that economic zones play very important role although the economic zones and promotion get zero allocation.

Further, the investment promotion gets paltry K2,003,177. If we are going to market ourselves or our opportunities as a country, what are we going to do with a K2,003,177? We would seek that the hon. Minister speaks to these issues in his response.

Mr Chairperson, we are all alive to the fact that Zambia is a land locked or inked country whose economy is largely dependent on copper exports. Over 70 per cent of our total export earnings to sustain our economy are derived from copper.

Mr Chairperson, in Ndola, we grew up with copper refinery. The people of Kanchibiya submit that they want value addition even in the mining industry. The copper as we know is given attention whether or not it is a plan of the Government that one day, we are going to have our copper smelters or refineries back so that we can export finished products.

Sir, it is very important that in growing the economy, we also understand the huge burden of creating employment for our people and also understanding that employment creation so far, has been sluggish. There is also an urgent need for us to diversify the economy and that diversification ought to be both in word and deed. 

Sir, allow me, on behalf of the people of Kanchibiya to equally submit that the role of state-owned enterprises becomes very important in promoting our objectives as a country. In this regard, we are biased because of the Zampalm Plantation in Kanchibiya and other parastatals under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) which can play a critical role in Zambia’s robust growth and increased Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) resulting in FDI inflows and more job creation.

Mr Chairperson, there are countries thrive with state-owned enterprises. For instance, countries like Chile provide us with some of the best practices we could be looking at. What is it that Chile managed to do which Zambia did not do and which Zambia can learn from in ensuring that state-owned companies play a critical role in the industrialisation of our country?

Sir, the vision of our nation trade policy as a country states as follows:

“To make Zambia a net exporter of value added goods and services through competitiveness at domestic, regional and global level.”

Mr Chairperson, we are seated at a point where Zambia is blessed with 40 per cent or there about of flesh water bodies and yet, fifty-eight years after independence, it still remains a net importer of fish. This argument need to be settled because a constituency like Kanchibiya with vast water bodies must be allowed to invest in the diversity species of fish which make economic sense for our people in order for them to export.

Sir, countries such as Nigeria are investing in Oreochromis niloticus (Nile tilapia). Countries like India, have gone into Nile tilapia but we are still holding back and yet, we know that the local tilapia will not take us anywhere in terms of growing the aquaculture industry. So, the aquaculture market is not going to wait until the Zambian aquaculture industry wakes up from its slumber.

Mr Chairperson, the submission from our end is that Zambia must critically consider mobilising the 3 million small-holder farmers to ensure that Zambia becomes a net competitor in terms of exporting and producing of maize. We have countries like Nigeria which is Africa’s second largest producer of maize after South Africa, but still a country like Nigeria will have a gap of about 4 million metric tonnes annually and that market is still huge. The Democratic of Congo (DRC) for instance, is a market for us. There are so many markets for us to exploit it and yet, we will still stick to the 1 million Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) beneficiaries forgetting that we can grow maize for the export market beyond just growing it for food security purposes at national level.

Mr Chairperson, Botswana has been able to transform itself from a desert to a prosperous nation. In this regard, it is important that we become more aggressive because what is happening between Ukraine and Russia provides an opportunity for Zambia because we know that the food shortages like maize and wheat will continue in those countries and Zambia stands positioned to exploit this particular opportunity. We must also understand to what extent the war between Russia and Ukraine is in forming policies in line with our national trade policy as a country.

Mr Chairperson, there has been talk about the Africa Continental Free Trade Area (ACFA). The ACFA seeks to expand a size of African’s economy to US$29 trillion by 2050. So, if Zambia does not reposition herself, it will still continue to play catch up and be a bystander even as our friends exploit this particular space.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the people of Kanchibiya would wish to submit that in terms of strong industrial base, let us also revisit what was laid by the founding father of this country, Dr Kenneth Kaunda and ensure that we look at what worked and what did not work. May be, at that time, the policy was inward looking. At this particular time, that policy could be outward looking to ensure that we exploit the export market.

 Mr Chairperson, with those remarks, I thank you.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!                           

Mr Sampa (Matero): Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Musokotwane for ably delivering a statement on the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. With due respect to the substantive Minister, a colleague, Hon. Mubanga, I have a huge concern with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. It does everything other than promote what it is supposed to do; to promote commerce, trade and industry, more so for the small and medium enterprises (SMEs) and the small and micro-medium enterprises (SMMEs), and that is very evident in this budget that has been allocated to this ministry. This has nothing to do with the incumbent hon. Minister. That is just the way it is and it continues to be like that. This ministry seems to only take care of the interest of well-established companies; the big companies, forgetting the start ups. Even the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) will show which entities have benefitted from it. There are very few youths who have benefited from there.

Mr Chairperson, I was listening to the hon. Minister as he presented the budget. Most of it was about trips for the hon. Minister going to World Trade Organisation and the hon. Minister and his entourage going to the United Nations (UN)Assembly. Everywhere where there is an international gathering, this ministry goes just to listen. If the President is travelling to the UN, the Africa Union, this ministry goes. However, when you look at what it has done this year, the last one year and the year before, you will see that it is zero.

Madam, the hon. Minister discussed Kasumbalesa border, a very topical border that this ministry should have done something about. It comes in the speeches, in the President’s Speeches and Budget Speeches here. It never misses, but there is zero action towards it. There is so much potential there. I went to visit and I saw it. Tonnes and tonnes of fish are imported from China, brought through Namibia to Kasumbalesa traded there, chaotically, and it goes into the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and nothing is captured. There is chaos there and nothing has been done by this ministry to ensure that there is proper trade there to benefit the youths of Chililabombwe and the Copperbelt  and also that the ministry gets some income from there.

Mr Chairperson, this statement the hon. Minister gave on the ministry responsible for commerce was silent on SMEs and the youths. What has this ministry planned, in this budget for the youths of Zambia? We know that the youth make up 70 per cent of our population, not only in Zambia but also in Africa. This ministry needed to make a plan for the youths. It is the youths that put this United Party for National Development (UPND) Government into power. If it is not doing anything for them, it is the same youths that will remove this UPND Government from power in 2026.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the youths of Kaputa are listening. They need a plan. Which ministry can plan for them? It is not the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. How many youths can be employed in the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security as policemen? That number is a drop in the ocean. How many youths can the Zambia Army employ? Again, that number is a drop in the ocean. That approach will not work for the youths. The ministry that needed to cater for them is the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises Development. The ministry needs to make the environment conducive for the youths to do business. If I was a minister, –

Hon. Government Members: You were a minister.

Mr Sampa: Sir, I have never been a minister in my life. Let me say if I was a Minister responsible for Finance, – but I have never been one in my life, – I would have put money aside for a youth bank to enable the youth get money from there and start their own SMEs and make money for themselves and not giving them the money because that has never worked anywhere.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, let me talk about another issue, which is that all Ministers responsible for Commerce and Finance come and go. They talk about it, but there is zero action. The Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) market is there in Chibolya. By the way, Chibolya is a country within a country. COMESA is a dumping ground for goods from South Africa and the Southern African Development Community (SADC) countries. It used to be COMESA, but it is no longer there, we might as well call it the SADC market. Everything produced by our neighbouring countries is dumped there and sold cheaply. The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) does not even capture anything from there. I go to Chibolya, I am free citizen. ZRA cannot even go there. It is scared. The police cannot go there because they are scared. There is huge trade happening there. All the Glenfiddich you drink is traded from there. Some of it is actually manufactured there.

Mr Chairperson, my point is there so much going at COMESA where trade is happening, yet the youths from Zimbabwe, Botswana and South Africa bring their goods and attract the market there. Their goods are bought in bulk. Some restaurants and hotels actually order from there, yet there is no such arrangement for our youths to take goods from Zambia to South Africa or Zimbabwe. It is one sided. I spoke about it once and said let us stop them from coming into Zambia, but people said, “no, we are a free trade country, we signed an agreement of free trade”. Freeis one sided. They are bringing goods for free. Try taking that honey from the North-Western Province or the pineapple and sending it to South Africa. Pack it nicely, and when it arrives at the Oliver Reginald (O.R) Tambo International Airport, our products will be rejected. They will say our product does not pass phytosanitary conditions and that it was not properly picked or that it has a disease. They will just discourage you, yet for us, it kaufela. Whatever you produce out there, bring here.

Mr Katakwe: What is kaufela?

Mr Sampa: Kaufela is fyonse, vonse. Meaning everything produced out there is brought here.

Lastly, I am running out of time, everything in Shoprite is from South Africa. The tomatoes and cabbages are all from South Africa and they are dumped here. When our farmers produce that, we cannot take their produce to South Africa. That is what this ministry needed to do in this budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane) (on behalf of the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mulenga)): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank all the hon. Colleagues who debated this Vote; Hon. Sampa, who is just from speaking, Hon. Fube who started and Hon. Chanda. I do not know whether I have forgotten anyone.

Mr Anakoka: Miles Sampa!

Dr Musokotwane: I already indicated him.

Mr Chairperson, let me just respond to some of the issues. The large amount of transfers from the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry that goes to support agencies under the ministry such as the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), an institution that deals with standards and many others which also addresses the issue of the comment I heard that there is not enough for marketing Zambia. Well, as you said yourselves, there is K2 million in the budget for marketing Zambia. In addition to that, we have to be mindful of the fact that the ZDA is funded under Transfers, there is also money under ZDA for marketing Zambia. So, when you combine the two, I think you will realise that actually, there quite a bit of money for marketing Zambia. Of course, we wish we could do more, but those are the resources that we are talking about.

Mr Chairperson, there was also a comment that there is no allocation for industrial development. The answer to that is that that particular function has moved out of the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises Development.

So, obviously, that budget line is also, accordingly, moved.

Mr Chairperson, then, of course, Hon. Sampa, who was at one time an hon. Minister in the ministries responsible for finance and commerce, trade and industry ...

Interruptions

Mr Lubozha: Euro Bond!

Dr Musokotwane: ...  spoke a lot about why we have not put enough money…

Mr Nkandu: And he benefitted from the Euro Bond.

 

Dr Musokotwane: … into small and medium enterprises (SMEs). I agree. We should have put more money into the SMEs, on top of what we have put in.

 

Hon. Government Member: Which he did not put himself!

Dr Musokotwane: Had this Government been in the position where it was the one that had borrowed the Euro money, it definitely would have put more money into the SMEs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Instead, our hon. Colleagues put money into the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ). Unfortunately, under the DBZ, loans were given out purely on partisan basis.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Unfortunately, again, because of that, they are not being paid back. So, if the people who were given money under personal rights were paying back, we would have been able to fund the SMEs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: So, if my brother is in a position to urge some of those colleagues, he can do so and ask them to pay. We, then, can fund the SMEs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Sit down, iwe!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank all the Colleagues once again for the comments they have made.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 33 – (Ministry of Commerce Trade and Industry – K 591,197,709).

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification from the Acting Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry on page 373, Programme 2111, Competition and Consumer – K42,241,528. I have noticed that there is a reduction by almost half in terms of the amount allocated for consumer protection as well as competition. What has caused this reduction?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, on page 373, Programme 2111, Competition and Consumer – K42,241,528, the hon. Member will remember that when I was making the statement, I had said that this money has moved from this programme to Standards and Quality Assurance. So, it has merely shifted from one sub-vote to the other.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45 – (Ministry of Community Development and Social Services – K5, 270,719,934)

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba) (on behalf of the Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mrs Mwamba)): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to present the 2023 Estimates of Expenditure for Vote 45 – Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Sir, according to the Government Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021, the ministry is mandated to provide equitable social protection services to vulnerable individuals and regulation of non-governmental organisations (NGOs) in order to contribute to sustainable human development.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to highlight achievements and challenges of my ministry thus far, in the 2022 fiscal year. Furthermore, I will outline my ministry’s resources management with specific focus on human and social development goals as contained in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

Achievements

Mr Chairperson, in the 2022 fiscal year, my ministry was allocated a total of K4.4 billion. This allocation was broken down as follows:

Allocation                    Programme

K41.5 million              Personal Emoluments

K960 million               Goods and Services

K3.36 billion               Transfers

Mr Chairperson, the major successes include, but are not limited to the following:

Social Cash Transfer

Mr Chairperson, as you may be aware, the Social Cash Transfer Programme is a flagship social protection intervention in this country. As of October 2022, the caseload for the Social Cash Transfer Programme stood at 973,323 households, as compared to 880,539 in 2021 in the same period. This will be scaled up to 1.27 million by the end of 2022, thereby, impacting over 5 million individuals.

Food Security Pack

Mr Chairperson, to address food security among vulnerable poor households, my ministry continued implementing the Food Security Pack Programme comprising wetland cropping, rain- fed and alternative livelihoods. This programme provided farming inputs and supported 263,700 poor and vulnerable, but viable farmers in all the districts of the Republic of Zambia. This support comprises nutrition sensitive messages and inputs that includes cereals, legumes, fertilizers and chemicals.

Livelihood and Empowerment Support Scheme (LESS)

Mr Chairperson, the scheme provided business, entrepreneurial skills and finance to selected households for enhanced well-being. The scheme reached out to 20,670 beneficiaries by August 2022 against a target of 20,843. This target will be surpassed by the close of 2022. Most of the beneficiaries of this programme are currently running various income generating activities. These activities include small livestock, general trading and general agriculture.

Social Welfare Services

Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, my ministry continued to provide social welfare services for the protection of the rights of children, persons with disabilities and the aged. The services included probation, reformation and rehabilitation of juveniles as well as adoption. My ministry also administered services related to gender based violence and anti-human trafficking.

Coordination of Social Protection Programmes

Mr Chairperson, to improve the co-ordination of social protection programmes at district and sub-district levels, my ministry is implementing the Single Window Initiative (SWI). This initiative brings together all stakeholders so that beneficiaries are able to access multiple services through an integrated approach.

Cash Plus Agenda (CPA)

Mr Chairperson, the Government is aware that the Social Cash Transfer Programme alone cannot completely get people out of poverty. In this regard, the Cabinet has approved the implementation of the Cash Plus Agenda. This has enabled beneficiaries of the Social Cash transfer Programme to receive additional benefits that have allowed them to engage in various income generating activities.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry faced a number of challenges in the period under review and these challenges include, but are not limited to the following:

1. inadequate staffing at district and sub-district levels;
2. inadequate transport for both national and sub-national levels; and
3. inadequate office equipment.

Sir, allow me to outline the key focus areas of my ministry for the fiscal year 2023. The Budget for 2023 is pegged at K5,270,719,934 compared to K4,425,021,918 in 2022. This translates into an increment of 18 per cent. Out of this amount, K99,326,462 is earmarked for personal emoluments, K1,081,522,905 for goods and services, K4,029,314,273 for transfers and K60,556,294for assets.

Mr Chairperson, specific programmes where the 2023 Budget will be applied include:

The Social Cash Transfer Programme

The Social Cash Transfer allocation has increased from K3,109,064,278 in 2022 to K3,725,425,936 in the 2023 fiscal year. With this allocation, the caseload of beneficiary households will increase from the 1,000,027 earlier mentioned to 1,374,500 in 2023.

Scaling-up Nutrition

To address the high levels of stunting and malnutrition among children in identified districts, my ministry will accelerate the rollout of the 1,000 days Social Cash Transfer Nutrition Cash Plus programme which targets 12,500 households by end of the 2023.

Public Welfare Safety Assistance Scheme

My ministry will continue to implement the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme in 2023. This programme is very important for the provision of education, healthcare and social support to stranded persons. In this regard. The programme has been allocated K3,000,001 in 2023.

Food Security Pack Programme

My ministry will continue to implement the Food Security Pack Programme in 2023. This is intended to contribute to the food and nutritional security for both community and national levels as well as facilitate income generation amongst households. My ministry has, therefore, allocated K1,206,855,784 for the programme targeting 280,000 vulnerable but viable farmers.

Child Welfare and Development Programme

My ministry will continue to implement interventions aimed at enhancing the development and wellbeing of children through programmes that seek to protect, promote and uphold the rights of children. It will also continue to implement programmes that will facilitate the identification, placement, rehabilitation and integration of children living on the streets. To this effect, K38,528,931 has been allocated to this programme.

Non-Governmental Organisation Coordinating Programme

My ministry will continue to create a conducive Government environment for the participation of non-governmental organisations (NGOs) in national development as espoused in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). To support this programme, K5,900,413 has been allocated in the 2023 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I call upon the hon. Members in this House to support the estimates of Expenditure for Head 45, Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, for the fiscal year 2023.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, I am not going to take much time but to emphasise that Kanchibiya supports the allocation to this very important ministry. This ministry touches on the very core of who we are as a people in Kanchibiya. It responds to the issues around poverty and vulnerability among people.

Sir, coming from a rural constituency and understanding the challenges of the elderly, the orphaned, differently abled persons and women and child-headed households, the difference that this ministry makes in their lives makes me stand on this Floor to support this allocation to this particular ministry unreservedly.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to also make use of this opportunity to commend the community development team in Kanchibiya District for their responsiveness to the challenges. I will give a clear example of an area in one of the wards, Chewe Shimfwamba Ward where our people were not captured under the Social Cash Transfer Programme. The ministry with its officers in the district moved in at lightning speed and today the elderly, the disabled and the vulnerable in that area have been captured. The amount might look small, but it makes a huge difference in the lives of our people in that it goes to cushion the impact of poverty on the very vulnerable of our masses in rural areas.

Sir, the increment from K4,425,021,918 in 2022 to K5,270,719,934 in 2023is commendable because of the scope that this ministry has to deal with.

Mr Chairperson, there are real issues and challenges of malnutrition, stunted growth and the impact of the development of these children in rural areas and who they become later on in life and how they hinder and impact negatively on their cognitive abilities. They also impact human development and the growth and development of this country. So, we support this particular allocation unreservedly. There are also issues around child welfare and development and community development.

Mr Chairperson, even though we know that this does not fall within the ambit of this particular ministry, it is the people of Kanchibiya’s submission that there be consideration that community schools in rural areas be brought under the ambit of this critical ministry in that we still have the burden of trying to find ways of paying our community teachers and ensuring that the children attending community schools are catered for and fed, etcetera. It is our submission that community schools be brought under the ambit of the particular ministry.

Sir, with those remarks, we wish to place on record that we support this allocation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Kafulafuta a chance to give their humble submission.

Sir, I will start off by saying the people of Kafulafuta strongly support this Head and the allocation given to it. However, somehow, we feel that more could have been done for disabled people. I say this because in my constituency I have two centres where we have the blind and we have seen how much they have suffered.

Mr Chairperson, the work done is commendable. This is just a wish that I am expressing in this House. I would like to see disabled people, for example, get some bus passes for wherever they go where they can easily get on a bus without necessarily dipping into their pocket.

Mr Chairperson, I have also witnessed a situation where some of the blind are married with families and their children depend on them for their school needs. Right now, this year, I had one young man who did extremely well in his Grade 12 exams. He scored six points, but his father did not have and still does not have the stamina to support this young man.

How I wish there was a provision to help such people in a special way because after fighting for him to get a student loan, there is still the issue of getting him a laptop and finding him accommodation. So, this is good, and I am happy that there has been an improvement from last year, but we can do more for the people. Almost every day, we all meet people on the street asking for alms and something should be done to ensure that such people are helped in a tangible way.

Mr Chairperson, I have had the privilege to live in other jurisdictions where you never find a blind person begging on the street. Such people are well catered for and the Government pays for their accommodation and bus passes. They have literary everything and their electricity bills are also paid. So, I, indeed, support the allocation to this Vote and I wish we could do more so that we can make their lives a little more comfortable.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I, again, strongly support this Vote.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Lundazi a chance to add their voice to this very important Vote.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I will be failing in my duties if I do not salute the woman who heads this ministry, Hon. Doreen Mwamba. At least, she has been to Lundazi and we have travelled together. She saw the blind, the poor, the women and how they are suffering. So, when you lobbing from such a person, you are lobbing from an informed point and it is very easy for you to get answers. If this was the Ministry of Agriculture, it would have been very good.

Interruptions

Ms Nyirenda: Leave me to debate, it is my time. My eight minutes.

Mr Chairperson, most people who migrated to town no longer send any money to their poor parents in the villages. The Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has done a favour to all of us seated here.

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I am peacefully listening to my sister who is debating very well. However, in all honesty and fairness, is she in order to include me in her debate which does not involve agriculture? Is she in order to try to provoke her own brother in such a manner?

Mr Chairperson, according to Standing Order No. 65, she is supposed to be factual in her debate and should not include people who are peacefully listening to her debate.

I need your serious ruling Sir, before I react.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member is out of order. We should not debate ourselves, rather we should be relevant in our debates. Let us avoid debating each other.

Stick to facts, hon. Member. You may continue.

Ms Nyirenda: Not when it comes from your brother. He has done very well this time and has delivered fertiliser in Lundazi on time. I know that is what he wanted to hear.

Interruptions

Ms Nyirenda: The lady has surpassed because she has been there to see the challenges that the people are going through. She has used the heart of a mother. Let me testify here because we have to be factual. Not so? So, I have to talk about the person who has been there.

Mr Chairperson, the people who are disabled in Lundazi are very grateful that from last year, they have been able to produce their own food. They no longer have to depend on anyone to help them, and in this case, they can even employ someone to work for them.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about some of the issues that may bring confusion in this very important ministry. The issue of removing people from the list of beneficiaries and telling them that their names have disappeared from the system should end. People know that they have been registered under a two-year or three-year programme and they plan. Hence removing them is increasing poverty among our people, especially us who are come from Lundazi.

Mr Chairperson, I appreciate that now our women who are always being beaten in homes because of gender-based violence are being given the necessary information and at the end they are even empowered because of the programmes which are taking place in Lundazi. The workers at the ministry in Lundazi are very few but they are able to meet all their people and supervise all the work that is going on. That is a commendable job which the members of staff of the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services are doing.

Mr Chairperson, I can only be worried if we, as the Zambian Government, do not add so much money to the programme because the donors who are heling us may relax and start withdrawing support to the programme. Therefore, it is important that the Government gives a good amount to such a ministry so that even those who are helping us can get encouraged. I know that one day poverty is going to disappear from our country if the programmes which are being propagated by the ministry come to fruition.

Mr Chairperson, the other thing is advice to our people. When you see that a programme is working, do not try to run away from paying back a loan. There is the issue of people who are disabled refusing to pay back a loan they have been given. You are given a loan and you are only asked to take back maybe two bags of maize. Do not use vulnerability to commit theft. It is important that when you are given a loan you should be ready to pay back the two bags of maize so that tomorrow you can go back and get another loan again.

Mr Chairperson, I feel very sad when community officers call me to tell me that my people have not yet paid back the loan. Mukundipulikiskasoni. Vibibazamukutipoka ivibakutipa. This means it is shameful when the Government is trying so much to help us and then we fail to pay back the little which is required. You know very well that when you are given three bags of fertiliser, you can produce up to forty-five bags of maize. Where is this evil coming from, where you do not even want to release two bags of maize so that you can be comfortable for the next year?  When you are given something for free and then you do not want to pay back, then you are not caring for that child who is disabled and that woman who has been chased from her marriage. You are not caring for the other person. I know that Zambia as a whole is benefiting from this programme of loans so it is important that we pay back. When we pay back, we can go back the following day and say that instead of giving the people three bags of fertiliser, let us add three bags to make it six bags so that our people can graduate from the programme.

Mr Chairperson, I totally support this Vote. There are Votes which I would not support, but not this one.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for this opportunity you have given me. A lot has been said concerning this Vote, but allow me to look at its mandate, which is the provision of equitable social protection services to vulnerable individuals or community.

Mr Chairperson, I support this Vote because it is trying to uplift the living standards of the people which the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is centred on.

Mr Chairperson, what is happening on the ground is something unbelievable. This Vote looks at vulnerable people in the communities. You will agree with me that Kanyama is one of the areas where you find such people. I would want to see a service that will have no ears, eyes and not discriminate any individual who qualifies for this fund.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Chairperson, what is happening currently is that people are being registered. When it comes to the actual receiving of this service, it becomes blind. People are not receiving this service and so, we start wondering what goes wrong between the Government, which is providing this service and the people who actually implement it.

Mr Chairperson, I will give you an example. Some months ago, there was a registration exercise for those who are supposed to receive this service. However, to date, people have not received the service. They flock to my office, and I think, sometimes, we the people of Kanyama use emotions. I just wanted to look for someone I could just hold and shake, …

Ms Sefulo: Ah!

Mr Chinkuli: … just to tell me what is going on.

Mr Sialubalo: Aha, ema soldier aya.

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Chairperson, right now, as I am speaking, there is some consignment that is being held in Kanyama.

Mr Mubika: What consignment?

Mr Chinkuli: Never mind.

Laughter

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Chairperson, the consignment came in a suspicious manner, something I even brought to the attention of the hon. Minister. So, those are some of the issues that I personally do not want to see because they are there to disrupt Government’s policies. As a result, we are being decampaigned. So, I would want to see services delivered without discrimination.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli: I would like to see services delivered without looking at political party affiliation.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli: I want to see service delivered to people who are supposed to receive it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Chairperson, once we do that, I think, Zambia will be a better place to live in.

With these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according the people of Chifubu an excellent and outstanding moment to contribute to debate on this Vote. Of course, I want to centre my debate on the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) programme.

Mr Chairperson, I recap that we are coming from a recent past where the Social Cash Transfer Programme was used as a scheme for political match-fixing.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Lubozha: We appreciate that today, the New Dawn Administration has de-politicised the Social Cash Transfer Programme …

Hon.  Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubozha: …as a method of helping the most vulnerable and down-trodden people in our communities. If you did not belong to a certain political class –

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukosa: Ula mfwaya iwe, ayi? Nde eba uyu uu mfwaya. Na li mukana.

Laughter

Mr Mukosa: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. I raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65 which requires us, hon. Members, to debate issues which are factual; can substantiated; and are relevant to the debate that is on the Floor.

Mr Chairperson, my hon. Colleague on the Floor, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chifubu, has suggested in his debate that the Social Cash Transfer Programme in the previous regime …

Mr Mubika: Yes!

Mr Mukosa: … was used for political match-fixing.

Mr Mubika: Yes!

Mr Mukosa: Mr Chairperson, he has not brought evidence and has not demonstrated how that was happening.

Interruptions

Mr Mukosa: Mr Chairperson, I raise this point of order to find out if the hon. Member is in order …

Mr Nkandu: The Chairperson knows!

Mr Mukosa: … to debate issues that he cannot substantiate, and without bringing evidence on the Floor of this House.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! First of all, what is match-fixing?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think, hon. Member, as much as match-fixing could have been there …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … you did not bring with you evidence to substantiate it.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Lubozha: Mr Chairperson, I could lay the hon. Member for Bweengwa on the Table as my evidence.

Laughter

Mr Mubika: Bweengwa?

Mr Lubozha: Yes, he was politically match-fixed.

Mr Chairperson, I say, once again, that today, the Social Cash Transfer Programme has been seen by the current administration as a mode and means of providing a much-needed social service to the vulnerable people in our community. This has been evidenced by the special and significant importance the New Dawn Administration has attached to this programme by increasing the number of beneficiaries from about 900,000 to about 1.2 million.

Hon. Member: Order!

Hon. PF Member: As the time is.

Mr Mubika: Continue.

Mr Lubozha: Mr Chairperson, allow me also to say that the benefits that are accruing –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1652 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 25^th November, 2022.

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