Tuesday, 15th November, 2022

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      Tuesday, 15th November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance on the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

I bear with you, Madam Speaker, because you have, several times, made rulings, and your hon. Members of Parliament have spoken. Even when I was thinking of bringing this matter to your attention, I knew it was very difficult. I know you have previously guided and asked the hon. Minister of Agriculture to give direction, which direction does not come to materialise each time it is given.

The last time, he did confirm to the people of Zambia that the distribution of fertiliser to various groupings on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) was to begin last week on Thursday.

Madam, I represent Pambashe, a rural constituency, which is predominantly an agricultural area. Currently, if there are two districts in Zambia that have been receiving good rainfall, it is Kawambwa and Mbala, at the height of 1,300 mm per annum. However, to date, fertiliser has not reached Kawambwa, and farmers are complaining saying, “We prepared our fields, but now, grass is growing where we are supposed to plant maize.”

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I watched the news on Diamond Television. The same is happening across the country. Even here, in Chilanga, farmers were almost fighting over the chaotic and erratic distribution of fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Agriculture is not made to account for this and live by his word so that farmers can adequately prepare, because the rains are not waiting, then Zambia risks having a serious hunger problem. Therefore, I am reluctantly bringing this issue to your attention, again, after many hon. Members of Parliament who have raised it.

I seek your serious guidance on this important national matter.

Madam Speaker: Order!

I notice the hon. Minister of Agriculture is not yet in the Chamber. I do not know whether he is on leave. However, this is, indeed, a matter that has been brought before this honourable House several times, and the hon. Minister has made undertakings that delivery was going to start. From last week, I think, he had said the delivery of fertiliser would start on Thursday. We had also encouraged the hon. Minister to engage hon. Members of Parliament over this matter. We even provided a venue in the amphitheatre where you could meet and discuss.

Anyway, since this is a matter of national importance, the people of Zambia would like to know the position or what the status of the delivery of fertiliser and other agriculture inputs is. The hon. Minister of Agriculture can come back tomorrow to this House to deliver a ministerial statement so that he can give an update on how far the delivery of fertiliser is because it is an ongoing process. Maybe it will settle a number of people’s concerns.

So, the hon. Minister of Agriculture is directed to come back to this House tomorrow to deliver a ministerial statement on this matter. I do not know whether I am being hard on him by saying he must come and deliver a ministerial statement tomorrow, but –


Madam Speaker: I know it is a matter that he is well-versed in.

Mr Mushanga interjected

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bwacha, just wait until you are hon. Minister of Agriculture.

So, let us allow the hon. Minister to come tomorrow. I hope he will be notified.


Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, yesterday, addressed the media and informed the nation that a Zambian student, studying in Moscow, Russia, died in combat in the ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine. This has raised alarm and concern from parents, especially those who have children studying in Russia, and Zambians living Russia. It is important that the hon. Minister gives a detailed account of what is happening in Russia as regards the safety of Zambians who are in that country, especially that Russians are fleeing their country due to President Putin’s mobilisation agenda, before many lives are lost.

Madam Speaker, further, I want the hon. Minister to update us on whether the Russian Government will compensate the family of the deceased Zambian.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chama North, as you have acknowledged in your matter of urgent of public importance, the hon. Minister was on television. He issued a press statement on what is obtaining on the ground. This confirms that he has not sat back waiting for things to happen on their own. He has briefed the nation. I also listened to that statement. He said that he is in contact with the family of the deceased person, and has gotten in touch with the Russian Government to find out exactly what happened.

So, this matter is ongoing. At least, we are happy that the Government is on top of things. It is inquiring and finding out what is happening. It is a pity that a life was lost under the circumstances. We can only pass our condolences to the bereaved family and may the soul of the deceased young man rest in peace.

So, hon. Member for Chama North, let us just wait a bit. I am sure the hon. Minister will continue briefing us on the status of what actually happened.


Mr Simumba (Nakonde): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the good people of Nakonde this opportunity to raise this matter of urgent importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134, directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, the security situation in Nakonde is getting worse each and every day. Every morning when we wake up, we receive bad news. It is either a dead body is picked, there are break-ins or many other things. The people of Nakonde are living in fear because this is something unusual. This regrettable security situation is not only threatening the lives of the people, but also investment opportunities. Not long ago, a Chinese national was robbed because the men and women in uniform lacked police vehicles.

Madam Speaker, as I am raising this issue, I know I may be asked why I cannot use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), but the security situation at the border is worrisome. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order not to provide vehicles for the police in Nakonde so they can work the way they should work? I seek your serious guidance.

Madam Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Nakonde.

On the Floor of this House, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security indicated that the Government was going to procure some motor vehicles for police stations. I am sure that is an ongoing process, but we cannot just produce a vehicle for Nakonde now because there is a worrying security situation.

Generally, there is a worrying security situation in the country. You may recall that the hon. Member for Chawama raised an issue concerning junkies in Chawama and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security issued a statement on the Floor of this House that from now on, the police were going to go on the ground and a number of people will be inconvenienced, but they should not be surprised.

The hon. Minister has promised that the vehicles will be procured. However, the process of procuring is lengthy because of the Procurement Act, which we already know has challenges. Until that Act is amended, we have to follow the procedures because we enacted that law ourselves. So, we need to make it good so that the process of procurement can be quickened and made easier.

So, hon. Member for Nakonde, let us give the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security time to procure motor vehicles for police stations. We are also still debating the 2023 Budget so I do not know the funds that he is going to use before we approve and pass the necessary Bills for him to have access to that money. Let us exercise patience. An assurance was given that motor vehicles will be procured.


Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga Madam Speaker, I am delighted to be given an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) is the institution charged with the responsibility of collecting taxes on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia, which money is used to buy medicines in hospitals and to provide various essential services to the people. However, currently, the ZRA system which is used for both customs and domestic taxes has been giving taxpayers problems as they interact with it. This follows the cancellation of the contract between the ZRA and the Copperbelt University (CBU). Since that contract was cancelled, CBU cannot provide maintenance services to the system which it developed. As a result, the system has continued to give taxpayers problems and if it remains unchecked, this will cause low collection of taxes.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has remained quiet on this very important matter.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much hon. Member for Mpika.

Hon. Member, you are familiar with the criterion that is used to raise a matter of urgent public importance. Although the matter that you have raised is important, it does not meet the criterion to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance and, therefore, it is not allowed. Can we make progress.


Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

 Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, my matter of urgent public importance is more or less like a rider on the one raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to you to reconsider your ruling, bearing in mind that all of us, the people’s representatives, have been receiving many calls from parents who have children in the Republic of Russia. So, Parliament being an accountable institution, we feel that it would be prudent that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation engages us so that we can clarify certain matters and put the people who are in fear at peace. This is a very important matter and my plea is for you to reconsider the guidance you have given.

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.


Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Members, once I have made a ruling on a matter, the ruling stands. The hon. Minister, as I have said, has not remained quiet. He had issued a press statements and he has been in touch with the Government of Russia and the family of the deceased young man. Had he remained quiet and not done something, then, maybe, I would have directed him to issue a statement on the Floor of this House. However, for now, I believe we need to give him time. Once he has gathered all the information, he will come and issue a statement. For now, let us give him time. We can raise the matter later, but for now, the information he has provided is sufficient. He already made a press briefing. We listened to it, and the information was circulated and is even in the papers today, unless people do not read newspapers. The matter was also on television. So, let us leave it at that. It also depends on the circumstances. From what I read, the young man was serving a prison sentence in Russia. How he found himself fighting on behalf of the Russian Government is a matter that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is trying to inquire about. So, let us give him time to inquire and then he will come and brief us.

Can we make progress.




91. Mr Simutowe (Mbala) asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics:

(a)        why the rehabilitation of the Samora Machel Airport in Mbala District has stalled;

(b)        when the project will resume;

(c)        what the cost of the outstanding works is; and

(d)        what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, the works on the rehabilitation of the Samora Machel Airport in Mbala stalled as a result of an outstanding balance amounting to K15,620,231,80. The contract sum of the rehabilitation project was K25,437,712.73 of which K10,275,480.93 was released to implement key works –

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Lunte, the aspiring candidate for the presidency, please can you tone down as you consult the Whip of the Opposition. He is the Whip there and is supposed to be maintaining some discipline and order in the House but you are distracting him.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, thank you for maintaining the decorum of this House by reminding the hon. Member of his duty to the House.

Madam Speaker, as I was saying, the contract sum for the rehabilitation project was K25,437,712.73, of which K10,375,480.93 was released to implement key works to facilitate civilian and commercial airline operations at the airport under Phase I of the rehabilitation  of Mbala Airport.

Madam Speaker, the outstanding works await the release of funds by the Treasury and will be implemented over a period of time as they are not in a critical path for the operations at the airport.

Madam Speaker, as stated, the outstanding works will cost K15,620,231.80. The outstanding works have been segmented and will be implemented over a period of time as resources are made available.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, when money is available, may I find out whether the Government will proceed with the same contractor or if it is going to re-advertise.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, sufficient works have been done on the airport and I think it is the Governments position that once funds are made available, it has no a problem continuing with the current contractor.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simutowe: Madam Speaker, the reason I ask about the project is because it has taken some time since it was started. Is the hon. Minister going to consider this in the 2024 Budget?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, suffice to say that there is a background to perhaps why works may have stalled and as to why the matter may not be as urgent for the Government to peruse, obviously as hon. Members may appreciate, we are working towards bringing to life most of the airports. The President is also on record as having said and directed that Kasama is a bit more urgent regarding works compared to Mbala.

Madam Speaker, provided funds are made available and in the order of priority, the works at Mbala shall be completed. Also, suffice to say that the works actually stalled at a time during the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic and they dealt a major blow in terms of airlines seeking to operate in that part of the country. The traffic volumes for air travellers went down and we are slowly seeing an up search and obviously at some point, Mbala will become critical for us to complete.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbala, do you have any other question?

Mr Simutowe: Madam Speaker, no, I do not have.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, what economic value does the Government attach to Samora Machel Airport?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Administration is very serious about opening up the country and developing provincial airports in different parts of the country. One of the obvious things that we are looking at is the promotion of what we call the Northern Circuit in tourism. There are a number of sites in that part of the country such as the Kalambo Falls. Lessening the travel time to these tourist destinations will be highly beneficial. Apart from the Kalambo Falls, we have Lake Chila, where the First World War ended on the 25th of November in 1918. We have the Moto Moto Museum, Lake Tanganyika, Sunzu Mountain and St. Francis Cathedral, a fantastic cathedral which was built way back in 1939. It is unique and would be nice for all of us, particularly catholic believers, to visit. We also have Lunzua Falls as well as the ‘sunken’ German War Ship on Lake Tanganyika. 

Madam Speaker, we really must work hard to encourage our citizens, particularly as we improve the economy, to engage in local tourism even before we market the country to foreigners.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Since it is constituency based question and the hon. Member who asked the question is satisfied, let us make progress because we have so many Votes to consider.



(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – K12,704,093)

TheVice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just about to conclude on the issues that were raised by hon. Members.

Madam, I spoke about a number of issues, but maybe today, I should say something on the situation that was raised by Mr Daka on teachers’ marriages and the issue of reuniting families. The Government is taking this very seriously and the commission is listening. We must know that there are many people in different ministries and departments affected by living apart. The commission will continue to work on reuniting families so that our society can be as normal as possible.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of those who have been working on voluntary basis to be given training first, I believe training should be given by colleges. It is not really the commission that does the training. We talked about upgrades. Hon. Colleagues, let me just say I appreciate the positivity that was brought out by the hon. Members who debated this Vote and even those who did not debate. I think everybody supports the commission and the work that it is doing.

Madam, recruitment will continue but maybe, not the same numbers as we did this year.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27– (Public Service Management Division – K49,754,554)

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the 2023 estimates of expenditure for Head 27, Office of the President, Public Service Management Division (PSMD).

Madam Chairperson, the division is charged with the responsibility of Public Service management as provided for in the Government Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021. The functions of the division are: Human Resource Management and Development, Establishment Control, Records Management, as well as Strategic and Performance Management Services.

Madam, the role of the PSMD is in line with the vision and mission statements outlined below. The vision statement is “A Smart and Value-Centred Public Service Management Division.” The mission statement is “To Ensure High Performance in the Public Service.”

Overview of 2022 Operations

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, the PSMD was allocated K43,682,311 and implemented the following programmes and activities:


Human Resource Development


The PSMD co-ordinated the implementation of human resource development programmes in the Public Service, undertook monitoring and evaluation of compliance to the human resource training and development policy and sensitised ministries, Provinces and other Spending Agencies (MPSAs) on the usage of the human resource training and development information system;

Human Resource Information and Planning

It undertook monitoring and evaluation of compliance of implementation of the performance management package, provided technical support to MPSAs on performance management and records management and verified, updated and procured the Public Services Establishment Register to support the estimates of expenditure on personal emoluments for the 2023 financial year;

Human Resource Technical Services

It undertook monitoring and evaluation of compliance to implementation of the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) funeral assistance and sensitised Public Service employees on the following:

  1. terms and conditions of service;
  2. code of ethics;
  3.  disciplinary code and procedures for handling offences; and
  4. 2022 Collective Agreement.

Recruitment and Placement

It provided technical support towards the recruitment of over 30,000 teachers and over 12,000 health workers and undertook capacity building of human resource management committees in addition to monitoring and evaluating of devolved functions; and

Management and Support Services

It conducted mindset transformation and change management and entrepreneurship training to citizens in both the formal and informal sectors.

2023 Budget Estimates

Madam, the PSMD functions are performed through five key programmes namely:

Human Resource Development

The objective of this programme is to facilitate the effective implementation of the human resource development function in the various MPSAs. The objectives include provision of technical support, tracking knowledge and skills transfer in the civil service as well as development of policies on training and developing of staff in the Public Service. The programme summary estimate is K2,562,395.

Human Resource Information and Planning

The programme will ensure optimum utilisation of human resources in the Public Service. This will be done through the implementation of the performance management package, human resource planning and forecasting as well as maintaining an accurate establishment register. The programme will also facilitate re-organisation of registers in MPSAs to ensure the effective and efficient delivery of public services. The programme summary estimate is K13,160,697. The following are the sub-programmes:

  1. Human Resource Information and Planning; and
  2. Organisation Management.

Human Resource Technical Services

This programme will facilitate the formulation, interpretation and review of human resource policies in the Public Service as well as the co-ordination of the bargaining process between the Government and Public Service unions. The aim of the programme is to ensure industrial harmony and build a professional and ethical Public Service. The programme summary estimate is K7,808,519.

Recruitment and Placement

This programme will facilitate effective and efficient recruitment and placement of employees in the Public Service to ensure optimal availability of personnel for continued quality service delivery. The programme summary estimate is K6,434,028.

Management and Support Services

The programme will facilitate provision of logistical support services for smooth operations of the division. The programme summary estimate is K19,788,915. The following are the sub programmes:

  1. Executive Office Management;
  2. Human Resources and Administration;
  3. Planning Policy and Coordination;
  4. Transport Management;
  5. Records Management; and
  6. Human Resource Management.

Madam Chairperson, in summary, the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) operational budget estimate for the financial year 2023 amounts to K49,754,554.

Madam Chairperson, the budget estimates before this august House will enable the PSMD facilitate efficient and effective operations and payment of personal emoluments. The PSMD will continue to ensure excellence in service provision. In this regard, I wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates of expenditure for the PSMD as presented.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving the voice of Chienge an opportunity to debate on this –

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, please, lower your voices, especially in the corner in front of me so that the debate is not distracted.

Hon. Rev. Katuta, you may continue.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I find it very difficult to support the budget line for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD). The reason is that, according to the Constitution of Zambia, every Zambian has the right to be employed in the Government, but what is happening at the moment is that if there is no one to speak on their behalf, it is very difficult for our young people out there, with good results from universities and colleges, to be employed in the Government.

Madam Chairperson, people are being appointed to positions like Director or Government spokesperson, which are supposed to be advertised. Again, when we talk of people being employed in Government institutions, you just hear someone say they are working in the Office of the President or Vice-President. Others will say that they are working in the ministry of so and so.

Madam Chairperson, I start to wonder what is happening to the children from Chienge because they have no one to connect them to these institutions. I recall, vividly, some years back, when graduates approached me. These graduates were sponsored by the very Government of Zambia to go to Russia and study. Most of them are still languishing when we have the PSMD which is supposed to give them jobs.

Madam Chairperson, money is wasted. These young people go to study outside of the country and then come back to become wanderers on the streets. So, I want to know exactly or, maybe, I need more education from this department on its role in our Government because I am not seeing it do the right thing that it is supposed to do.

Madam Chairperson, because of what it has been doing, for me and the people of Chienge, we are saying no to this budget line. It should not be given anything until it improves –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Yes, until it improves and shows –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, they can question because they are appointing people without advertising positions.

Hon. Government Members: No.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, this department belongs to Zambians, and not a political party. It is a very important arm. It is very important because it has taken a page from a book from the previous regime. When we talk, they go like ‘Ah!’ Pomposity will not take them anywhere.

Madam Speaker, we are talking about the rights of Zambians. The people of Zambia have rights. As we have been talking, most people have been talking about the issue of tribal lines. Look at how many people have been removed from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), and where they were packed. When we ask questions, they go like “Ah!” They know how they are saying it. Look at the kind of people who have been removed from positions in the Government and replaced with other –

Mr Andeleki: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is premised on Standing Order 65. Is the hon. Member speaking in order to debate in the manner she is debating that the Government is supposed to advertise jobs when it has not yet advertised any jobs? Is she in order to come here and start to mislead the nation and herself saying that the Government is supposed to advertise jobs if the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is to be funded?

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, based on what I heard Hon. Katuta say, I would rather let Her Honour the Vice-President respond. When I am told that jobs have not been advertised, I would not know that, as presiding officer. Now, we have an opportunity where Her Honour the Vice-President, when winding up debate, will tell us what the exact situation on the ground is.

Hon. Katuta, may you please be focused on the vote so that you do not go astray. Let us be focused on the Vote on the Floor. Let us also be very careful as we bring in issues. We have to be very sure of what we are talking about to avoid points of order. We know Her Honour the Vice-President will respond. However, let us be very sure of what we are talking about in line with the Vote before us on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Katuta, you may continue with your debate.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, this is the department which is in charge of managing the civil servants’ jobs or positions.

Madam Chairperson, there is a list of police officers, if I recall correctly, of about fifty-one or fifty-seven, who were fired without procedure being followed when there is a procedure to fire a policeman –

Mr Mulenga: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, in reference to Standing Order 65 (1) (b). As hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, Cabinet Minister, I have a responsibility to speak and defend the Government’s position on certain matters being raised to mislead the nation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to mislead herself that the Government has not been advertising jobs when in the recent past we have seen over 30,000 civil service positions from the Teaching Service Commission; 11,000 in the medical field; the military; the Zambia Police Service; the Zambia Department of Immigration; the Zambia Wildlife Authority; and even from my own ministry and other statutory bodies advertise? All adverts are there.

Madam Chairperson, is she in order to insinuate that the Government is not advertising jobs? If it is not advertising jobs, is she able to stand and cite the jobs it is giving out without adverts? Is she also in order to insinuate that for every director to rise, there should be an advert? Some people rise through the ranks.

Madam Chairperson, I seek a serious ruling to guide the speaker from misleading the House and herself.


The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, this is a straightforward matter. However, I mentioned that we should focus as we debate. We have seen adverts in the newspapers and that is why I even said that Her Honour the Vice-President will come and respond. Unless the hon. Member indicated the other jobs, which were not advertised, but most of the jobs were advertised. I leave it in the hands of Her Honour the Vice-President. When she will be winding up debate, she can tell us the jobs which were not advertised. For the jobs that were advertised, however, we all saw the adverts. If those are the jobs that the hon. Member on the Floor referred to, then she was out of order, unless if there are other jobs that she indicated. On those jobs that were advertised, the hon. Member on the Floor debating is surely out of order.

Ms Katuta, you may continue.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of procedure, Madam.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I said that the position of director or spokes whatever ...


Rev. Katuta: ... in the Ministry of Information and Media was not advertised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I was not talking about all the jobs. I was talking about some of the jobs. In fact, the PSMD is for those who are already in employment. This is what I am talking about. The best example is the position of director and spokesperson, which was not advertised.

Madam Chairperson, every Zambian deserves to be employed by the Zambian Government, regardless of where he/she comes from or political affiliation. Thirty-six policemen were fired and we should try to find out the cases which those policemen were given and look at the replacements that are taking place.

Let me also talk about the issue of teachers with interest. I will not mention names to protect someone. However, a head teacher with a surname from somewhere has been replaced with somebody from somewhere who was a junior. What is the PSMD doing? This is wrong, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

The manner in which you are debating is now attracting the Presiding Officer to ask you to present evidence because that is what we are getting now. We do not know about that issue. Maybe, others know about it, but some people do not know about it. So, it is best that you bring evidence since you are very sure about it, so that even Her Honour the Vice-President attends to that issue as she winds up debate.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of procedure, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: You may continue, Ms Katuta.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, there is a list of the policemen who were fired and even Hon. Chitotela rose on a point of order regarding this matter. We all know about the list and he was asked to lay the evidence on the Table.

The Chairperson: Order, Ms Katuta!

The evidence I was talking about is on the head teacher whom you said was removed and replaced. That is the information I asked you to lay on the Table.

There is a point of order by the Leader of the Opposition. What is your point of order?

Mr Mundubile: Madam Chairperson, you ought to guide the House. Some of the procedures we are seeing seem strange. You can imagine what would happen if each one of us as we are debating, at every juncture we make a statement, we were asked to present evidence. It would be very difficult.

Madam Chairperson, the practice of the House is that the Executive will have an opportunity to respond. Ideally, as we are here debating, it is for the benefit of the entire nation. If we cannot allow the debates to flow smoothly – those are the comments we are getting from outside as regards these issues.

Madam Chairperson, going forward, we have to take note that hon. Members are debating based on what they know or the information that they have picked up. If at all the information is inaccurate, the Executive will have an opportunity to rebut. I know that some hon. Members are new and this may seem to be the correct procedure. We observe decorum in this House and we have to give an hon. Member a chance.

Madam Speaker has ruled before on points of order and she has said, “That is their opinion”. So, if a ruling of that nature has been made before in this House, why can the speaker on the Floor not have her own opinion too? We must be consistent. The rules of the House must be applied consistently. Let us help Madam Speaker because she has ruled on these matters before.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have to make progress. I think I mentioned that Her Honour the Vice-President will come to respond, and some of the issues, as already stated, are personal views. However, where there is a need for evidence, you will have to bring it.

Please, let us just observe the rules of this House. Otherwise if we continue raising points of order after every statement that is made, then, we will not progress. We are actually pre-empting what Her Honour the Vice-President will respond. She is supposed to respond to the issues that are raised on the Floor of this House. So, hon. Members, can we reduce the points of order and also be attentive. Can we just listen to what is being mentioned. However, if there is truly evidence that is supposed to be produced on the Floor of the House, I am going to indicate. Otherwise, can we make progress.

Ms Katuta, you can continue.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, some people who were working at the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) were removed from there and pushed to Cabinet or the PSMD, and they are waiting to be deployed.

Madam Chairperson, I want to put on record that Zambia belongs to the Zambians and we are here to uphold our Constitution. I am saying so because I can see what is happening. We cannot pretend and not talk about tribalism when tribalism is vividly being seen in the country. It is in the system because of the way people are being displaced –


The Chairperson: Order! Order, Ms Katuta!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, somebody should not say this is the time that we have known. The truth of the matter is that this is happening in our country.

The Chairperson: Order! Order, Ms Katuta!

I think we are now diverting. The Vote on the Floor is straightforward. I wonder why we are now bringing in controversial issues on the Floor of the House. We will not make progress.


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

This is a very straightforward Vote, but we are now looking at it with another lens. We are bringing in politics when contributing to the debate on these Votes. Can we assist the people of Zambia because they are listening. They want to hear progress. What is it that is supposed to be brought out that will help the people who are listening? However, we are now bringing in issues that will divide us. Can we, please, try to focus. The people want to hear what is there for them next year. Can we make progress, otherwise I will move to another person.

Ms Katuta, you may continue.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, we are talking about the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) and let me put it on record that we are all Zambians. Whenever the PSMD is looking at deployment, promotions or whatever, Zambians who have tendered their applications looking to fill vacancies should be considered equally.

Madam, let me also put it on record that I did not say that the jobs for the 30,000 teachers and the 11,000 health workers were not advertised. I gave a specific position.

Madam Chairperson, I want to insist that as far I am concerned, on behalf of the people of Chienge, we are not supporting this budget line for the PSMD because it is not serving its intended purpose.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Madam Chairperson the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is an important institution of Government charged with the overall responsibility of managing human resource in the Government. I will confine my comments to the portfolio functions stated to in the policy statement, particularly, on Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) support services, recruitment and placement, human resource information management planning, and administration and development.

Madam Chairperson, let me begin with PMEC services. As we talk about the transfer of people to holding positions at Cabinet Office, remember that the payroll has three clear distinctions; the substantive payroll, the payroll for retirees, those who have not yet been paid their terminal benefits, and that for those people on holding positions. That simply means keeping people on holding positions for too long leads to serious haemorrhage in the Treasury. I urge the Government to immediately up their game in recruitment and placement so that we reduce the number of directors that are on holding positions. There are people who are at home drawing salaries and this causes serious bleeding in the Treasury.

Madam Chairperson, let me move to human resource information and planning. We had more than 122,000 civil servants, as at 2021. This requires that we invest in technology to manage human resource optimally. This is the best way we are going to ensure that we manage the issue of ghost workers.

Madam Chairperson, several times have we heard screaming headlines of thousands of ghost workers in certain parts of the Government but let me give you my personal experience. The moment you open new health posts, mini-hospitals or general hospitals, you do not immediately have Treasury Authority and the establishment is not yet funded. It would probably be funded in the next Budget. So, what happens is that you re-arrange or redistribute the human resource that you have. It is too often that people who are working in new health posts, mini-hospitals and new general hospitals are removed from the payroll and are being called ghost workers and it takes another month to re-introduce them. In the meantime, the public is already alarmed that there are ghost workers in the public service. If you have a robust human resource information planning system, you should be able to quickly update it and not wait for all those letters to get back to the institutions that are requesting for transfers.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that we invest in factualness. If we say there are ghost workers, let them be there and be removed. If there are no ghost workers, it is a question of determining where they are because of administrative procedures that must be worked on. Let it be so.

Madam Chairperson, on security of tenure of civil servants, civil servants need to be looked at through politically neutral lenses. We need to abandon the route where civil servants are labelled as members of the United Party for National Development (UPND), the Patriotic Front (PF) and so on and so forth. We have professional civil servants who have had the privilege or misfortune of working under a certain Government formed by certain parties. Let us look at them through politically neutral lenses. Let us not label everyone as a member of a party that led the previous Government or in the current Government. This way, we shall avoid unnecessary retirements in national interest and being unfair to the highly professional civil servants who were trained at high cost.

Madam Chairperson, let me emphasise that the PSMD is such a strategic institution and it is the engine of public service managing Government and at the moment, if we do not optimally manage it, we are going to bleed the Treasury. We will de-motivate civil servants and we are not going to get the best out of the civil servants. As we talk about managing the civil servants and security of tenure, planning adequately for their retirement is extremely important. Preparing them for their retirement is important and we must run away from the issue of retiring people on national interest because of political considerations.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support the budget.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving the people of Kabwe Central Constituency the opportunity to also contribute to debate on Vote 27, the Public Service Management Division (PSMD). In debating this Vote, allow me to say that the most important factor of production, in any given situation, is human resource. I say so because no matter how much you might have in resources, no matter how much you might have water, land or minerals but if there is no human face, you cannot have any development. Therefore, this Division is very important as it enhances human development.

Madam Chairperson, let me be quick to mention that let the PSMD ensure that as it manages and carries out its mandate of developing human resource, it should not leave women behind. I am a woman and we want to make sure that women are not left behind.

Madam Chairperson, let me also mention that the PSMD should make sure that they help and motivate deserving officers who are performing very well. Previously, we used to see people who were undeserving or not qualified being promoted. That should be a thing of the past. We want to see people who are doing fine and well qualified being promoted.

Madam Chairperson, the PSMD is also responsible for human resource management in designing and implementing reforms. As it is doing this, I request that it also comes up and design performance appraisals. As I have said, you will find that people’s performance in these institutions is very low. Hence, as a country, we are not developing. It is not that we do not have resources. We might have money and everything but if the human resource is not doing the right things, we cannot see any development. So, it is very important that, as a country, we make sure that we design a performance appraisal so that we ensure that our officers are able to deliver and do the right things so that we see the much needed development. In Zambia, we have seen that   most programmes do not achieve the much needed result because of the under performance of the human resource.

Madam Chairperson, let me also mention that mindset is very important, as mentioned by Her Honour the Vice-President. As the PSMD, it has to ensure that it sensitises public workers in Zambia so that they know that they are employed to offer services. What has been happening in Zambia is that people think they are employed to get a salary. Firstly, they have to offer a service and then draw an allowance or a salary. So, that mindset needs to be changed. Why do I say that? We have seen people whose aim is just being in the office and waiting for a salary without offering the much needed services. So, mindset change is very important for us to attain development in the country.

Madam Chairperson, I want to say thank you to the New Dawn Government. We have seen that the Government is willing and it has already pronounced salary increments for our workers. In return, we want to make sure that the workers give us the much needed–

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order!

There is an indication for a point of order. What is your point of order?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I came to the House a bit late today. For the first time, I struggled to access this Chamber, which belongs to you and I. There are strangers now who are searching us by the door as we enter the Chamber. Which Standing Orders or procedure is this House using to search hon. Members when entering their Chamber? What is it, Madam Chairperson, that we are hiding, …


The Chairperson: Order hon. Members! Can we give him chance.

Mr Mung’andu: ...or what threat do we pose to each other as hon. Members?

Ms Mulenga: Are we common criminals?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious –

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Member for Kalulushi, there is only one person who has been given a slot for a point of order. Hon. Member, have you finished raising your point of order?

Mr Mung’andu: No, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, this is a House where hon. Members of Parliament should be very free to interact. I feel we are still brothers and sisters here. We are one family. We represent this country. The search of hon. Members by the door has never happened before. Why should we be searched by strangers as we enter the Chamber? Why should strangers come and interfere with the operations of hon. Members of Parliament here? Which Standing Order or our Standing Orders are those strangers using to search us as hon. Members of Parliament?

I need your serious ruling, Madam.

The Chairperson: What Standing Order have you used?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, this is on procedure. If anything, it is a constitutional matter because we are supposed to be very free.

Mr Nkandu: Which Constitution?

Mr Mung’andu: Yes, Members of Parliament are supposed to be free within the precinct of Parliament. It is a fact. So, it is a point of procedure and we need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, are you done with the point of order?

Mr Mung’andu: Yes, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for Chama South, I think we have mentioned over and over here that you are not supposed to raise points of order on administrative issues. There is a way that you are supposed to raise them and they will be attended to. So, this point of order is not admissible.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question.

The Chairperson: You may find another way of raising this administrative matter which is affecting you. You have got all the rights to bring that matter to the attention of the Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Chairperson, before I was interrupted, I was thanking the President of the Republic of Zambia and the New Dawn Government –


The Chairperson: Can we have order!

Ms Halwiindi: – for in a long time–

The Chairperson: Can we give her room to debate. There are too many loud voices and noise. People want to listen to her debate. Ms Halwiindi you may continue.

Ms Halwiindi: Thank you so much, Madam Chairperson. Before I was interrupted, I was thanking His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema and the New Dawn Government. It is my first time seeing such an increment given to our civil servants. People are very happy. In return, I urge the Public Service Management Division (PSMD)to see to it that its people also work hard. The Government has got love for the people of Zambia. As such, we want to make sure that the performance of the civil servants is high so that we see the much-needed development in the country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Madam Chairperson, allow me to start by acknowledging and appreciating the high appetite of employing many of our youths that the New Dawn Government came with. It is still promising to employ many more people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: This is what has been lacking for a long time.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to also encourage the New Dawn Government and urge it to continue employing more people even us as they plan to increase salaries for civil servant. I just want take a different line of debate, that of encouraging the Government.

Mr Mung’andu: Looking for a job.

Mr E. Banda: Of course, I am not looking for a job. I am already employed by being in Parliament. Thank you, Sir.

Madam Chairperson, as I debate Vote 27, I want to state that the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) should have a better way of encouraging our civil servants who are working very hard to serve the Zambian people. There have been situations in which where civil servants have served in rural areas for many years, probably from when they were deployed upto when they retire. These people have been maybe serving 100km away from the nearest central business district (CBD). I just want to urge the PSMD to try and engage the National Housing Authority (NHA) and implore it to go out in rural districts and build medium and low-cost houses so that our civil servants who are in rural areas should benefit by way of getting some soft loans. Unlike the situation where most of our rural civil servants are getting loans just to buy vehicles that do not even help them after they retire.

Madam Chairperson, I think this is very important, and if the New Dawn Government can go that way, with what we have already seen, many people will benefit from this Government. We have many people in rural areas who have retired. If you look at the way they stay now, you will see that they have got nothing to call home. Others have died and their families are suffering. Therefore, if the Government can come up with a simple policy of building houses in all districts in rural areas and allow the civil servants to by paying for the houses little by little, then they will have somewhere to settle after retirement. Families can settle even after their parents have died.

Madam Chairperson, on this note, I thank you for giving me this opportunity, and I end by saying support this Vote 27.What the Government is doing is visible. I think it is just good that we support this Vote and its budget should be passed.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Chairperson I am delighted that you have given me this opportunity to address you as I add the people of Mpika’s voice to the debate on Vote 27 which is the Vote for the Public Service Management Division(PSMD).

Madam Chairperson, to start with, we need a law that will protect our civil servants from harassment by political cadres, not only that, but also a law that will protect them from unfair dismissals and retirement whenever there is a change of Government on mere suspicions that they were political cadres.

Madam Chairperson, we have seen a number of our people from the civil service who have been retired in national interest. If we had such a law, these people would not have been retired. There is no school in Zambia that trains cadres and they are given jobs based on those papers. There is no school, literally.

Madam Chairperson, we have people who are serving in various government departments because they are qualified for those jobs. Why should they now be victimised that they are political cadres saying that they were employed because they supported political party A. That does not arise. Really, we need a law that will protect our people.

Madam Chairperson, we have also seen various recruitments where District Commissioners (DCs) have chaired selection committees. DCs are political and some of them are former information publicity secretaries (IPSs) or former district chairmen for a particular political party. How then do we expect them to recruit people that are not politically inclined?

Madam Chairperson, when there is a recruitment exercise by the PSMD, we need to use district administrative officers who are pure civil servants and not DCs, who were IPSs for a particular political party, to chair selection committees because their priority would be to consider political cadres of their comrades.

Madam Chairperson, we have also seen positions being created for cadres. Day in day out, they are insulting people in the Opposition who are performing a noble role of providing checks and balances to the party in power. Further, I want to comment on the issue of the recruitment of 11,000 health workers and 30,000 teachers.

Madam Speaker, in Mpika, there are about 10,000 youths who are qualified with papers, and are capable of being in employment. However, only about fifty were captured in both recruitments. The rest are still languishing with papers because most of the people who were recruited to come and work in Mpika came from elsewhere.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, this must come to an end. Zambia is for all of us and, as such, job opportunities that are available should be equally distributed.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I want to state that the PSMD in its current form is performing duties of politicians. It has to be detached from political interference where it is also being used to employ people from certain regions. Those from Muchinga Province and Mpika, in particular, are not being employed while others from other regions are being given job opportunities without any difficulties. Those in the Northern Province are being left out.


Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, the PSMD needs to isolate itself from political interference. This House can come up with a law that could actually give it powers to be independent.

Madam Chairperson, I want to emphasise on the appointment of a Director Spokesperson in the Ministry of Information and Media. An outsider who is a cadre has been employed in that position when the practice in the Public Service is that one has to rise through the ranks to the position of director.

Madam Chairperson, even other directors in the ministry are very shocked and they have been complaining bitterly because they do not know how this outsider found himself in this position. When was this position advertised, Madam Chairperson? When was he interviewed and who interviewed him? Can we have all those details?

Madam Chairperson, in the past, people who were employed on merit were unfairly mistaken to be cadres, but today, real cadres are being employed against the promise that this Government made that it was not going to employ political cadres. Real cadres are being employed in the Civil Service and yet, we, the taxpayers are paying these people for playing the role of IPSs and chairpersons. We are paying them. We need a professional Civil Service that is going to drive the development agenda of our country. Even those that belong …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of Order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, as I continue and sympathise with the hon. Minister of Health who missed her speech the other day, I want to say that …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised by the hon. Minister of Health.


The Chairperson: Order hon. Members!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order and refer to Article 65 …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, resume your seat.

Hon. Members on my left, please, be reminded that we are in Parliament. This is the people’s House. It is not our House and the owners of this House are listening to what is going on, but we keep on disturbing them. Can we lower our voices? Actually, you have the right to move out and go and caucus even on top of your voices. It is allowed to do that rather than disturb proceedings in this House.

The hon. Minister of health may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65 of our Standing Orders which states that a member who is debating shall ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.

Madam Chairperson, the speaker on the Floor has made a statement to the effect that District Commissioners were chairing selection committees for the new staff that are being employed. I want to put it on record that the information is not factual and, therefore, he should desist from misleading the public out there.

Madam Chairperson, you will recall, for example, that when we were recruiting health workers, we came to the House and indicated that selection would be decentralised and the chairpersons would be Directors of Health for each district and other civil servants which, of course, included the DCs.

Is he in order, therefore, to come here and mislead the public that, in fact, the DCs were the ones that chaired the selection of health workers, for example?

I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Member on the Floor try to be factual. As I mentioned, there are people listening out there. There are District Commissioners (DCs) listening out there. There are many people who are listening. The whole country is listening and getting what you are saying. Can you, please, be factual and, maybe, be careful with some of the words you are using so as not to mislead the country. Can you be factual.

I took it that what you were saying was true, especially the issues you raised coming from your constituency because you are the area hon. Member of Parliament. However, when you are talking about national issues, can you be more factual because there are DCs everywhere and not only in your constituency.

Further, can you be focused on the Vote on the Floor of this House. The problem is that we have a lot of information that we want to squeeze into this single Vote. Let us be very factual and let us talk about issues that will help the people of Zambia. They are looking forward to that.

You are complaining about the way the recruitment was done. Just tell them what you think could be done and the best things that should be done so that people out there can have hope, if at all what you are saying is true.

So, can you be factual because the people of Zambia are listening to what you are saying and looking forward to the 2023 Budget.

So, with that guide, hon. Member, please, be factual as you conclude your debate.

You may move on.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, may I draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Health to this issue that in my constituency, the DC actually chaired the selection committee for the recruitment of health workers and I know that it is not just in my constituency. Maybe, they did not follow her directive well, but in other constituencies too, DCs chaired selection committees. So, in that regard, I am being factual, Madam Chairperson. I cannot miss my speech like the hon. Minister did during the …


The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kapyanga, you have now moved away from the budget. For the sake of progress, I will call another Member because we keep on wasting time on you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the good people of Chasefu an opportunity to add a voice to the debate on the Vote for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD).

Madam Chairperson, my heart breaks. Today, I have been compelled to debate because I think the way the debate started has saddened me. Being a Zambian, looking at what is happening in this House, worries me.

Madam Chairperson, it is a pity I have left my glasses; I first wanted to look at the mandate of the PSMD. Having worked as a Commissioner, and looking at the technical nature of this important division, I think some of the comments that were made on this Floor are very unfair.

Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, I support the budget. Where we are here, we must be factual. We must show the Zambians that this is a House of honour. Every Zambian is looking at us.

Madam Chairperson, I belong to your Committee on Delegated Legislation, chaired by Hon. Remember Mutale. Members of your Committee can bear me witness. When we visited the Southern Province, one of the chiefs hosted us, and asked us where we get some of the things that we debate in the House. What we do here, worries the Zambians.

Madam Chairperson, it is not true that the PSMD recruits teachers and police officers. The PSMD is a technical department that provides technical advice to commissions. So, my heart bleeds to hear people impute that the PSMD is doing a disservice to this country. We must add value to this nation and state facts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, as I stand here, I am privileged I have a background. I joined the council from the lowest position of clerical officer and I have risen through rank and file. I did not come here because of belonging to groups, which chant slogans when coming here. This country deserves better from this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, when it comes to certain positions under Salary Scale M, the division –


Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, they will not distract me.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

It has now become common to be disturbing Members who are debating. If you have anissue, raise a point of order.

Mr Mung’andu interjected

The Chairperson: Mr Mung’andu, I think you have been here long enough. When an issue is mentioned or something is not correct or unparliamentary, you can raise a point of order, rather than throwing back words at the person on the Floor debating. Let us avoid that.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, I want to encourage them. I said that my coming here is not by fluke; I have a background. I do not get distracted. When the things happening in this country are better, we should say so.

Madam Chairperson, when it comes to placements, the PSMD only recommends those starting from Salary Scale M and going up. To impute that this department should be denied an increment because it is recruiting teachers, is wrong. We should thank the Government for recruiting 30,000 teachers. Zambians are able to see all the advertisements. Zambians are watching the bitterness we come to this House with, and fight things, which are genuine.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: The people of Chasefu are not happy.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the Office of the District Commissioner (DC). The question is very simple. Has the office been established today?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Nyambose: By virtue of definition, even if you come through a cadre route and become a DC, you are a civil servant.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: DCs are civil servants by definition. We have made that position to be like that. So, today, to demonise DCs, when yesterday they were tolerated, is not fair to this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, we should not encourage wrong things to continue, but these things have not started now. We must be sincere to ourselves, before we say anything. So, we need better things for this country. The people watching us should see value in us. We are vying for higher positions and the people are watching. The PSMD is critical and it needs support.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, I can wait to hear that point of order so that I continue debating, and we help this country. We should not demean this House. This department needs support from all of us.

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Nyambose!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Chairperson, the speaker on the Floor is emotional and we are here to follow the debate. He must understand that as he debates, there are people who are keenly following his debate. All we are seeing are emotions and bitterness as he put it.


Mr Mundubile: Most importantly, he must be relevant. People are even worried now. He mentioned that he has a heart problem and that his heart is bleeding, yet he is so emotional.

Madam Chairperson, is Hon. Nyambose, the speaker on the Floor, with a heart problem, in order to continue being so emotional in this House?

Madam Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Thank you for that point of order. It is very difficult for me to say that the debater is emotional. We have had debaters in this House who are vibrant. Others are very soft, you can hardly hear them, and others are very loud. So, it is very difficult for me to say that the hon. Member on the Floor is emotional. Unless you say he is too loud, then he is going to adjust his microphone.

However, hon. Member for Chasefu, please, focus on the budget. Do not wonder so much on other issues, so that you give us more information.


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Let us give Mr Nyambose chance to wind up.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, this is my country. When someone says that you are talking too much than the owner of the funeral, then he is mistaken. This is my nation. I will not allow wrong things to continue. I have come to add value to this nation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: I will not allow that.

Madam Chairperson, I will speak with a smile. I am a unionist. My voice is always well projected. So, I am not emotional. That is how I am.

Madam Chairperson, let me continue.

Mr Mukosa rose.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members! Order, Mr Nyambose!

I have seen that we are not making progress. We are not going to have any more points of order ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: ...so that we make progress. It is the duty of every hon. Member debating to be mindful of unparliamentary language, to use better language and to be very factual. We keep going back and forth. Let us make progress. I think even the people who are listening are irritated, for lack of a better term. Some of the listeners are concentrating. Even the visitors in the Public Gallery are concentrating and listening to us. Let us make progress. So, no more points of order.

Mr Nyambose, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. Let me continue.

Madam, if there is one department that is providing technical support to all the commissions, it is the PSMD. If we want to see a professional Civil Service in this country it will come through the PSMD. Hence, I support the Budget line.

Madam Chairperson, if we are talking about the Civil Service, we are talking about the PSMD. It must be taken away from these debates that are taking place in this House. We must support it for the future of this country. It must be taken away from political insinuations and machinations. Its budget is supposed to be increased even more than this because it will be there to provide the technical support.

Madam, so, as a nationalist, I will continue providing that. When I speak like that it is not being emotional, I enjoy what I say …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: … because when I was there I was itching to come to this House and help those who are still bitter with reality so that they know that this country deserves better.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: Order!

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Chairperson, I will not take long with my debate. I just want to add one or two points to those made by those who have spoken before me, especially those who do not speak with bitterness.

Madam, in supporting Vote 27, the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), let me say that hopefully by next year when the Government begins to fully implement the decentralisation policy, we will see more money allocated to this very important Division.

Madam Chairperson, first of all, the PSMD is a specialised wing of Government that helps us, especially in the Ministry of Health, to do recruitment and placement. In so doing, there are rules and regulations that sector ministries have to follow, especially when it comes to issues of recruitment, placement or transfers.

Madam, there was an issue that was raised on the Floor of the House concerning ghost workers. It is true, and I speak with authority and fact, that audit reports conducted by legitimate institutions have stated that ministries, including the Ministry of Health, have ghost workers and this has affected even other programmes. For example, my ministry has what is called the Global Fund Unit which also does its own employment of some of the health workers that are working under certain programmes. Again, even there we have had external auditors confirm that for many years we have been carrying ghost workers. It is gratifying that with this kind of allocation, they will support us to ensure that we do not continue with the past action of carrying ghost workers because the more ghost workers you carry on your payroll, the more you limit the number of workers that are supposed to be put in place.

Madam, let me also bring another point to this issue. Going forward, it is important that people begin to get used to the fact that District Commissioners (DCs) are civil servants. Going forward, DCs, like any other civil servants, will be used by this administration to pursue Government programmes. To that effect, the issue of recruitment of civil servants, under the Ministry of Health, in particular, will include DCs under the guidance of the PSMD.

Madam Chairperson, also, the New Dawn Government is pursuing the Decentralisation Policy in terms of recruitment. So, even as we recruit using the decentralised method of recruitment, the PSMD will continue to play its role in ensuring that rules, policies and guidelines are followed. In that regard, the New Dawn Government is making sure that when it recruits, it has stated, for example, that people must apply where they are staying. The reasons are many. One of the reasons is to ensure that all 116 districts are given equal opportunities so that we do not have people coming here misleading the public that this administration is employing people on tribal or regional lines as the previous Government used to do.

Madam, let me just give you one example. When we took over governance, under the Ministry of Health, even as I speak now, all the provincial heads except for one, had people from two regions only.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Hon. Government Member: Shame!

Mrs Masebo: It is this administration that is trying to ensure that it balances because our Constitution is clear on that matter. What are we doing under the Ministry of Health? We started at the provincial level. What we have done so far is to ensure that we have employed people from all the ten provinces, except for Lusaka Province which we have not touched, but we shall touch it. So, there is no province that we have left out.

Madam Chairperson, currently, if you go to the districts or facilities, you will only find employed people who hail from mainly two provinces, not 70 or 75 per cent but 98 per cent.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mrs Masebo: We have not even started. We hear representatives of the people come on the Floor of the House misleading people. It is a dangerous trend and they should stop it because it is not good.

Madam, this administration and the President are trying to unite this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: The people who are talking should feel shy.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mrs Masebo: The ability to have shame is part of being a human. When people who did bad things can come here and speak with a straight face –

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, the use of the word ‘shame’ is unparliamentary. Replace it with another word.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I replace the word ‘shame’ with –

Mr Nkombo: Masholi.

Mrs Masebo: Masholi?


Mrs Masebo: Give me another word.

Mr Nkombo: Social shame.

Mrs Masebo: Social shame, Madam Chairperson. If they can come here, look us in the eye and say there is segregation and there is no fairness, one wonders what kind of human beings they are. There was an hon. Member of Parliament who was speaking about the integrity of this House and I think it is important. As you have guided us, the public are listening and what we say must be factual because if you say something and somebody hears it, they will think the New Dawn Government is employing people based on the regions they come from. This is not correct.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: If somebody wants me to lay evidence on the Floor of this House. I can bring it to show you how divided and unfair the allocations of employment were. For the first time, people have heard about recruitment and for the first time, we guided that all recruitment must take place in respective districts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, like every process there will be some mistakes and we are carrying people from the previous administration who do not believe in fairness. So, it is possible that these people are still continuing and still have that hangover, but we will be cleaning that up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam, you will see. We shall move from the province to the district and then to the facilities to ensure that the country is balanced in everything it does.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Minister!

I get a bit worried when you use the word hang over as if these people were drinking. Is there a better word that you can use hon. Minister?


The Chairperson: Order hon. Members!

We want to make progress.

Mrs Masebo: I withdraw the word hangover…


Mr Masebo: Madam Speaker, when I used the word hangover, I was talking about the previous administration’s way of doing things just to interpret and not a hangover from a bar, no. However, that spirit of not running a country in a fair manner. This administration under the leadership of Mr Hakainde Hichilema, ...


The Chairperson: Order!


The Chairperson: Order hon. Members! We are not in an English class. Can we stop the side debates. Can you also stop assisting me, ...


The Chairperson: ...because it has brought a lot of side talk. The hon. Minister of Health shall continue without any interjections and can we please lower our voices.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I just wanted –


The Chairperson: Sorry, hon. Minister for misleading you. I did not observe the time. For the sake of progress, I invite Her Honour the Vice-President to wind up debate. We have to make progress. I know there are many hon. Members who wanted to debate, but time is not on our side.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Chairperson, let me thank all the hon. Members who have debated and, indeed, there are those who would have wanted to go on but were unable to because of the lack of time, as you have guided.

Let me start by saying that I adopt 100 per cent, the debate of Mr Nyambose as my own. I think he did a lot of teaching on what the issues are all about. I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding of what the division is all about. That is why there are allegations that are lumped on them, which allegations are unfounded and not directly within the mandate of the Public Service Management Division (PSMD).

Madam, so much has been spoken about, and so, let me try to respond to Rev. Katuta. I think that was extremely misguided, dangerous and untrue. We should never allow ourselves to go that way. There is a lot of good work that the division does. For somebody to stand up and say:“I will not support this because they are all wrong,” shows that somebody is not paying attention to what is going on or what is supposed to happen. The hon. Member declared and walked out.

In fact, I am speaking to the hon. Members, particularly the Independents, because this time around, she is an hon. Independent Member. She walked out of the House, which is also not the procedure of this House. When you raise matters, you should remain here to listen to the responses. People who have spoken have walked out. So, what is the point? They are playing to the gallery to mislead the nation. That is not correct.

Madam Chairperson, the firing and recruitment of the members of public she was talking about does not fall directly under the PSMD because it only gives technical support. We have commissions that do that. To start talking of the police and teachers, hon. Colleagues have responded and it is my prayer that people have been following.

Madam Chairperson, I would want to see how many times job advertisements for employment were placed in this country placed compared to the many adverts that this New Dawn Administration has done to make the public get involved. It is unfortunate that this House can go regional. That must not be allowed. Indeed, like the hon. Member said, sometimes if you have a habit of taking people’s things without their authority, you are a suspicious person to other people. This is what is happening. This is because some people have lived like that where all they did was look at people’s names and regions. They think this Government is doing that. If this Government has that policy, why is it employing through the districts? If you go to the District Commissioners (DCs), you will find that they are operating within their regions. So, even if they were tribal, as somebody said, which tribe is it? It will be their tribe in the district that they are working from. So, what are you talking about? What are you talking about Colleagues? We should not mislead this country.

The DCs are operating within the districts, and that is the fact. DCs are not the ones who are chairing the human resources committees that employed or recruited. That was just the beginning. The recruitments in the human resources committees start from the province. Are we saying even at the province, the appointments are tribal? I think that debate was very negative. This Government is working to unite people and it is trying to be as open as it can in the recruitment processes. The hon. Minister of Commerce and Trade and Industry talked of all these adverts that we have seen in the papers. I cannot even start listing them. The recruitment in the defence forces starts from the districts. Even the one for teachers started from the districts.

So, hon. Colleagues, what are people talking about? Let us be honest. This Government is trying to correct the many wrong things that have gone on for the past almost ten years. We do not use innuendos or speculations to debate because somebody may have just listened to that and they go away thinking this is a fact. You are painting a negative picture. Let us not get stuck in the past.

Madam, since I started sitting here, nobody has been retired in national interest. I do not even know how national interests came up. Where is Hon. Nyambose? He should be able to define this. Hon. Mtayachalo should define this too. People were being retired in national interest without an offence, we know that. This Government is trying to correct that, and you know that. We asked all the people who had been retired to bring their cases and appeal against those decisions and we said those would be looked at case by case. It will not be because you are retired and have a certain name then we take it directly that it was truly in national interest, without an offence, no. We are looking and scrutinising each case. If they did not commit or if they committed an offence, it does not matter where they come from they got their punishment. This is what this Government is trying to do. It is not an easy task. So, let us work to unite the country.

Madam Chairperson, somebody talked of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) putting people there. Is a transfer illegal? In fact, if you look at some of the mandates of the division that I talked about, you will see that when it comes to transfer of skills, it can even move a person to go and do something better somewhere. The issue of people on holding positions was also debated. The issue is we have ministries and departments that have been realigned. So, where did you want people to go? They have holding positions to wait until they are redeployed or placed in the right places.

This Government is working to ensure that things go well. This division works so much. I do not want to spend time on it, but somebody talked about sensitising workers on their conditions of service. That is what this division does. Let us look at the good.

Madam Chairperson, Mr Kapyanga came out so strongly with figures. I think those figures should be brought to the Table. He said there are 10,000 youths in Mpika and only fifty were employed. I do not know which institution employed them. Was it the PSMD? Did it employ the fifty people and bring others from elsewhere? Please, let us not do that. In which departments were all these others brought into Mpika? In which departments were they deployed?

Madam, let us not use language that is so divisive when it is not even true. However, if they are facts, we would like to see the 10,000 against the fifty and the others who were brought from elsewhere. You know that is not a statement of fact. Where did the 10,000 in Mpika apply where only fifty were picked? So, he is saying 9,550 came from elsewhere. Do not do that. That is misleading the House, and it should not be allowed.

Madam Chairperson, what we should say is that this department is extremely important. You have looked at its mandate. The things it does are very important. It helps the Civil Service to do its work. I think we have listed them down, and they include human resource management and development, establishment control, records management as well as strategic and performance management services. Let us support it. In fact, we should be asking for more so that this division can do its work.

Madam, this Government is working to bring unity to our country. The recruitments are done through different institutions, including the different commissions. Do not bring up people who the division is not responsible for.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation – K1,492,242,300)

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation (Mr Kakubo): Madam Chairperson, I am honoured to stand before the House to present the policy statement on the 2023 Budget and Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry draws its portfolio functions and mandate from Government Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021, which is, “To implement Zambia’s foreign policy and to facilitate Government’s interaction with the international community for the purpose of advancing the country’s national interests.”

Madam Chairperson, the ministry’s mission, therefore, is to, “Effectively promote and protect Zambia’s interests and maintain good international relations in order to contribute to national development.”

Madam Chairperson, in 2023, the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation is K1,492,242,300, representing a 15 per cent reduction as compared to the 2022 Budget allocation, which amounted to K1,756,835,130. Of the total budget, I wish to emphasise that personal emoluments account for the largest portion amounting to K1,293,593,362. Recurrent departmental charges for the year 2023 amount to K196,942,277 as compared to K112,435,726 which was allocated in the year 2022. For our grant-aided institution, the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies (ZIDIS), the amount remains at K1,706,661.

Madam Chairperson, the total budget composition for the ministry in 2023 is, therefore, as follows: Personal emoluments represent 86.69 per cent of the total budget while recurring departmental charges represent 13.20 per cent and grant transfers and subsidies represent 0.11 per cent respectively.

2022 Budget Performance

Madam Chairperson, before I highlight the planned activities for the ministry for the year 2023, I wish to underscore, briefly, the performance of the 2022 fiscal year. The ministry’s approved estimate of expenditure was K1,756,835,130 of which K1,298,000,902 was funded, representing 73.9 per cent of the approved Estimates of Expenditure and K1,213,854,483 was expended by the ministry. The ministry, in fulfilment of its mandate, successfully undertook the following major activities:

  1. co-ordinated the hosting of the fourth African Union Mid-Year Co-ordinating Meeting;
  2. held Joint Permanent Commissions of Co-operation (JPCs) with various countries such as the Republic of Namibia, where we reviewed the implementation of the bilateral agreements and memoranda of co-operation in a wide range of areas, including trade, commerce and agriculture; and
  3. facilitated high level visits and engagements for the Head of State, which among others, resulted into the signing of the Co-operation Agreement with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) on the manufacturing of electric vehicle batteries and the development of the value chain in the electric battery and clean energy sector.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry further facilitated Zambia’s participation at various international meetings where Zambia sought to enhance bilateral and multilateral relations and improve development co-operation, including trade and investment.

Madam Chairperson, notable engagements also included negotiations with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank in order to produce a conducive environment for debt sustainability.

Madam Chairperson, we also launched a new 30 million Trade and Investment Programme in Zambia called the Trade Boost Zambia and a US$14 million initiative through the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), which was designed to spur economic development for Zambia as well as a commitment of US$355 million compact for water, sanitation, drainage –

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.




Mr Kakubo: Madam Chairperson, economic diplomacy remains the focus of Zambia’s foreign policy and, as such, in order to fully harness the opportunities presented on the global arena, my ministry will continue to foster partnerships and increase Zambia’s presence across the globe.

Madam Chairperson, in this regard, I am pleased to inform this august House that the ministry plans, in the year 2023, to open new foreign missions in strategic regions of the world in order to further fulfil Zambia’s geo-economic interests. The following are the earmarked cities: Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates, Doha in Qatar, Singapore and also Dakar in Senegal.

Madam Chairperson, it goes without saying that economic diplomacy can only thrive in a peaceful, stable and secure environment. As such, under the New Dawn Administration, matters regarding peace and security will continue to be of great importance, as we work with bilateral and multilateral partners on several peace and security initiatives.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to inform the House that Zambia was elected as the incoming Chair of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ on Politics, Defence and Security during the SADC Summit held in Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) on 17th August, 2022.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia will, therefore, continue to participate in peace and promote peace and security initiatives within the region, including in areas such as the Cabo Delgado Province in Mozambique, through our support to the SADC mission in Mozambique Isamim. In addition, a number of countries within the SADC region, including the Republic of Zimbabwe, the Kingdom of Eswatini, the Republic of Mozambique and the Republic of Madagascar are scheduled to hold general elections in 2023. As the incoming Chair of the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security, Zambia is mandated to participate in the SADC elections as an observer.

Madam Chairperson, still on the maintenance of peace and security, Zambia is a signatory to the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (ICGLR) Pact on Security, Stability and Development. The New Dawn Government will continue to promote the principles of democracy and good governance initiatives by supporting institutions such as the Levy Mwanawasa Regional Centre, which is the ICGLR think tank located right here in Lusaka.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia remains an active member of regional and continental bodies such as SADC, the African Union (AU), the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and the United Nations (UN), among others.

Madam Chairperson, this august House may recall that Zambia successfully hosted the 4thAU Mid-Year Co-ordination Summit, here in Lusaka, on 17th July, 2022. The summit offered an opportunity for the AU leaders to collaborate on the economic integration agenda of the continent. The summit also conferred on resource mobilisation and accelerated the implementation of programmes in order to attain continental transformation and integration as outlined in Agenda 2063.

Madam Chairperson, in order to ensure that Zambia continues to consolidate its influence on the international arena, my ministry will continue to facilitate Zambia’s active participation in regional, continental and international bodies. This will ensure that we safeguard Zambia’s national interests which contribute to sustainable development for our country. These engagements are in line with policy pronouncements by the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to say that my ministry will ensure strict adherence to financial management controls and procurement procedures to ensure prudent utilisation of resources in the year 2023.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to call upon my hon. Colleagues in the House to support our budget so that we make progress in the areas outlined.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Chairperson, thank you, and I thank the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Madam Chairperson, I just want to highlight a few issues, having looked at Vote 17.You will agree with me that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is one of the most important ministries because it depicts the country’s foreign image out there in foreign missions. However, I looked at the provision of infrastructure maintenance, which is K68 million equivalent to about US$4.2 million, coming from one million.

Madam Chairperson, we had a privilege through my committee to visit some of the missions abroad under mortgage financing and what we found is a sorry sight. So, it is imperative that the Government relooks at our foreign policy to ensure that most of the infrastructure in the missions is looked at effectively, is well maintained and also reconstruction is done. If we come up with a policy, we can dispose some infrastructure and build new infrastructure.

Madam Chairperson, why do I say so? The provision for economic and political co-ordination in the budget is K1.2 billion compared to K68 million. There is a gap. We understand that we need to enhance our political co-ordination as well as economic co-ordination with our stakeholders or partners in foreign missions, but it is important that our structures, which depict the Zambian face, are looked at in very amicable way. For example, our permanent representative to the United Nations (UN) cannot even host his colleagues in his office because it is in a deplorable condition. So, I support Vote 17, but it is important that some of the facilities are looked at to ensure that we change the way we look at things.

Madam Chairperson, as I proceed, let me take this opportunity to talk about transport and logistics, which has a provision of K100 million, and even in 2022, the provision was K100 million. However, a number of people are being recalled from foreign missions. It is important that there are adequate provisions so that the ministry does not have issues to repatriate, our brothers and sisters who have been in the missions, properly back home in a befitting manner being diplomats.

Madam Chairperson, this is because the experience we had when we visited some of these missions is that they are a very sorry sight in terms of furniture and movement of our staff. Yes, the staff is in foreign missions, but we should accord them the dignity that they are in a foreign mission and to that effect, are diplomats. So, this issue needs to be looked at.

Madam Chairperson, let me also look at management and support services, which is about K12 billion from K3.6 billion. This is a good movement and we do support it. What we want to see, also, is proper accountability and financial management like the hon. Minister said. This culminates into issues of how we ensure that this is done. If you look at what the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation predominantly does, all the works are outside the country. They are not in the country. So, it is important that we look at those other management issues to ensure that our foreign missions’ participation and operations are effective.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you as I support Vote 17.

Mr Nkulukusa (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Katuba and myself an opportunity to give a few comments on Vote 17. From the outset, let me say that I support the budget. I just want to make comments on how we can really benefit from this Vote because this ministry is actually the flagship of national profiling.

Madam Chairperson, as indicated by the hon. Minister, the 21st Century form of diplomacy is more into economic diplomacy. This gives us an opportunity to use the foreign missions to push the economic agenda of the country. Like my other brother said, for this agenda to be pushed, we need to profile the country and position ourselves as the most attractive destination. However, I do not see the amount that has been allocated, so far, for the refurbishment of most of our foreign missions as adequate.

Madam Chairperson, it is true that most of these missions really require having a proper feel and look so that when people are talking of destination Zambia, they can really see it from the perspective of those who are representing us.

Madam Chairperson, it would be good to see more, but of course, I am sure going forward, we will see that we will invest more in ensuring that we give the proper national brand status of the country where we are represented. This is especially important in those destinations that we know are highly economical. We can get a lot of value in terms of attracting investment as well as attracting tourists.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, let me narrow down to one of the training institutions where I spent almost seven years trying to train some of the diplomats who go to represent this country, which is the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies (ZIDIS). We also have to slightly increase the funding for this so that the institute can enhance the training to ensure that in most of the destinations where we think we have a lot of economic value, we are sending trained staff that has really passed through the training institution.  For most of the people who just come and pass through without proper training, you find that most of the destinations that are quite good economically we will miss them. We will not attract the investment as well as tourists that are coming from those destinations.

Madam Chairperson, I think from the economic diplomacy point of view, there are two major things that we would like to gain from the diplomats who are going to represent us. Firstly, we want to see an increased inflow of tourists coming from these destinations because these diplomats are putting up activities that sell Zambia as a destination and that also give us a competitive advantage.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, we want to see the inflow of investment coming from these destinations. It is good that from the Middle East, there is Abu Dhabi and Qatar which are increasingly looking for good investments into Africa and we are going to open missions in these places. That is a strategic move that the ministry must take in terms of opening these missions to target countries that are good for investment. The two benefits I have mentioned are what are going to create jobs and move our economy to better levels. Of course, whatever we are talking about is going to be achieved through this.

Madam Chairperson, let me also look at the issue of how we select diplomats, more especially the tourism and trade attachés. Again, it is especially important where we send diplomats in targeted countries where the return on investment is quite high. We must ensure that we try and bring in a little bit of professionalism so that there are many career diplomats that are in those destinations. This would really help us in getting value for money.

Madam Chairperson, there was an example at one time that whenever some diplomats tried to find their footing, more especially in the London office, they were moved. I remember a time some when people were complaining that the changing of diplomats was too much. Before one could really find their footing and start pushing for investment and tourists to our country, they were changed and a new person was sent, who had to learn the ropes. At the end of the day, we do not really get value for money. So, my thinking is that maybe for destinations such as the United Kingdom (UK), Germany and all those that we feel investment comes from, we could try to position career diplomats, more especially in the area of trade and tourism. Then we can really get value for money.

Madam Chairperson, otherwise, I support this Vote, so that we can really position ourselves. I think this ministry is the frontrunner in terms of national profiling, national repositioning and giving the picture to the world that truly we are ready for investment and tourism.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to debate Vote 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. I have a few observations and contributions.

Madam Chairperson, my first observation is on the goods and services. The budget has improved from K112 million to about K196 million. Let me submit to the hon. Minister that it is very important that our embassies and properties in the Foreign Service are well looked after.

Madam Chairperson, I say so because I think there is a sad situation in Kenya. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is aware of this. Zambian land has been put on a title by a Kenyan individual. These are issues that the hon. Minister needs to address because our property abroad is sovereign property. It is property that needs to be respected. A Kenyan getting title for land that belongs to this country is something that the hon. Minister needs to address. I hope this amount will also take care of such issues.

Madam Chairperson, the second issue is the welfare of our citizens in the Diaspora. We have just heard that one of our students, a Mr Nyirenda, who was serving a prison sentence in Russia, lost his life at the battlefront in Ukraine. To that effect, the hon. Minister gave a ministerial statement yesterday updating the country.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important for the hon. Minister to know that when we send students and other citizens in the Diaspora, it is the responsibility of the Government to ensure that their welfare is well taken care of. I heard what the hon. Minister explained and I want to give an example. Some years ago, we had a similar situation in Russia, where one student was sentenced. The minister in charge of Foreign Affairs then, if my memory serves me right, was Prof. Nkandu Luo. She had to travel to Russia to find out what transpired.

Madam Chairperson, what was established was that these two Zambian students were drunk and had a fight. As a result, one of the Russian girlfriends reported the other Zambian who was arrested and detained, but because the hon. Minister went there, the courts acquitted him. As we speak, he is one of the senior engineers who are serving this great nation. Now, from what the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation explained, this student had found a part-time job as a courier person. It is possible that the item he was given innocently to courier contained narcotic drugs. The Zambian student, the one who lost his life, was convicted. So, I want to find out from the –


Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Mung’andu: Yes, there is what we call collective responsibility. Government is a going concern. If it happened three years ago, you are still responsible.

Madam Chairperson, it is my expectation that in future, we should take keen interest to check, particularly, on Zambians who are found to be in conflict with the law in foreign lands and ensure that we look after them.

The last point that I want to contribute, Madam Chairperson, is on the value that our embassies are adding to our country. No wonder when President Hakainde Hichilema emphasised the point that there is a need for this country to take professionals in Foreign Service as opposed to cadres, a number of us subscribed to such an idea. However, what we are seeing is the reverse of those very good words. We need professionals who should graduate within the system, within the foreign services, the diplomatic circles or security wings. We have people who are trained to look after the interests of this nation. These are the people who will be able to interact at that level that when we send them abroad. There are certain comparative advantages that we might be looking to benefitting from these foreign countries; for example, technology. If we send a cadre who does not know what technology is because he was clapping for me or he is too close to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, he will just sit there and enjoy the money. We will not get value as a country. So, it is very important that as we send these diplomats, those who are technically trained are the ones who are sent. This will stop the country from losing a lot of money when there is a change of Government. It is because we send cadres that we recall them after a change of Government. However, if we send technocrats, who graduate within the system to go and work in our foreign embassies, even if there is a change of Government, programmes continue. It is not everything that changes when there is a change of Government.

Madam Chairperson, I have seen that transfers are getting quite a substantial amount of money in the budget. These are things that we can avoid. I appeal to the hon. Minister that going forward, if we are to build a country that is resilient and have a master plan that is projected beyond twenty or thirty years, we need to capacitate professionals within, not only in the Civil Service but also in Foreign Service. We need educated and patriotic colleagues who will remain there to achieve the vision of the country.

With this contribution, Madam Chairperson, I support the Vote. Congratulations to the hon. Minister. I have seen he is looking well. Welcome to the marrieds’ family hon. Minister.

I thank you, Madam Chairpersons.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: Though it is not in the Vote.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing the people of Nalolo to debate Vote 17.

First of all, Madam Chairperson, I would like, from the outset, to state that I support his budget and I have a few comments with regards to Vote 17. First of all, as noted by previous debaters, the increase in allocation on infrastructure and maintenance from K1million to K68million is commendable. However, hon. Minister, the amount is not enough. I would appeal to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to give your ministry more funds because Zambia has properties that are not being used. I will give you an example of Zimbabwe. There are over four properties that are still being renovated and the head of mission there is renting. The deputy head of mission is also renting. The chancery is a six-storey building and it is still under renovations. So, we cannot occupy that building if it is full, but we can also rent it out and recoup the money. The same is the situation in Ethiopia and Mozambique. This K68 million is not enough to complete these structures.

Madam Chairperson, I am sure the hon. Minister is aware of the state of the residence at the Permanent Mission at the United Nations (UN). The house for the head of mission there was not renovated for ten years. The Government was paying US$10,000 a month on rentals for the head of mission. So, looking at the opportunity cost, the Government was better off releasing as much resources as possible to complete these structures so that it can recover this money by renting out that space that it is not using. However, it is commendable that there is an improvement from K1 million to K68 million.

Madam Chairperson, over 80 per cent of the budget is emoluments. This comes to the recalling of people from foreign missions. Now, these are legacy issues, but now that the hon. Minister is there, we need professional diplomats. How do you become a diplomatic after undertaking studies for four weeks at the Zambia Institute of Diplomatic Studies (ZIDS)? I have been there myself. You do four weeks studies at ZIDS and then you are appointed as an ambassador. Hon. Minister, this narrative needs to change. Are these people who are trained for four weeks able to have a discussion on economic diplomacy? So, I am surprised that under ZIDS, the ministry has maintained the same budget of K1.7 million for last year and this year too. So, we appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to increase the allocation because there is a need for capacity building.

Madam Chairperson, I do remember in the hon. Minister’s last policy statement last year, he did mention that the ministry was collaborating a programme with the Copperbelt University (CBU) where we can have career diplomats. My view is that, the foreign mission is not really an opportunity to reward loyal party members. We must have professional civil servants in the foreign mission. This is narrative you have an opportunity to change. However, I support that there has been an increase on these other allocations.

Madam Chairperson, regarding economic and political diplomacy, you may recall that the President, in his inaugural address, did mention that his priority in his five years would be to change the focus from political to economic diplomacy. This is why the hon. Minister mentioned that these other missions will be opened. This is commendable. However, there has been a reduction in the ratio of political diplomacy to economic diplomacy. The hon. Minister has allocated more to political diplomacy. For example, the Government has moved from K4 million to K7 million the allocation for political diplomacy. Then for economic diplomacy, the allocation has increased from K2 million to K3 million. So, when you look at the ratio there, you will see that the allocation to political pronouncement is more than what has been allocated to economic diplomacy but the money is going to political diplomacy. I feel that this also needs to be looked at.

Madam Chairperson, regarding foreign policy, there is clear goodwill from the international community that the international perception of the country has had an overall improvement.

That overall improvement, I will be very honest with you, is not because of the quality of our diplomats. It is because of the President’s specific approach to take that diplomatic angle himself. We now need diplomats to come to the party. How do they come to the party? They need to be qualified. Therefore, the call that diplomats must rise through the ranks of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is a very important clarion call. The technical training is very important.

Madam Chairperson, when you see contracts on infrastructure maintenance that former ambassadors were signing, you will be shocked. In Ethiopia, for example, you have a contract on renovations which has terms of reference for the Republic of Zimbabwe, signed. So, what does that tell you about the quality of diplomats we need to have? We need to have diplomats who have attention to detail. It is a serious job –

Ms Sefulo: It was the Patriotic Front (PF)!

Mr Wamunyima: Yes, it was the PF, but the narrative has to be changed by those in power now.

Madam Chairperson. It is a serious job, and it is very important that we make a clear decision on how we improve the quality of diplomats.

Further, embassies around the world do not have full staff compliments. Therefore, this allocation may also need to be looked at. What is the model staff compliment, for example, for a mission in Southern Africa? That can be duplicated in countries around the region. What is the model for a mission in Europe? When you go to some embassies, they have no First Secretary for Communication or First Secretary for Politics, but others have. It is very important, for effectiveness, to ensure that quality service is delivered. The ministry needs to have a clear model of the correct staff compliment.

Madam Chairperson, we expect that, beyond this budget, the New Dawn Government will have completed replacing diplomats that have been recalled. From where I stand, it has been one year now in power and people are still being appointed into the Foreign Service. So, my clarion appeal is that in this budget, satisfactorily, there is an improvement and, other than those areas of improvement on staff, I support it.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to support the budget for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning (Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation), and to congratulate a colleague and a friend for a job well displayed this far.

Madam Chairperson, ever since Mr Hichilema became the President of this country and appointed his first Cabinet that saw Mr Kakubo become the first hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation in the New Dawn Government, standards have been demonstrated that have brought about a very high rating for this country on the international platform.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I repeat; it has displayed a very high rating in terms of integrity on the international platform. I want to congratulate Hon. Kakubo for working together with the President not to be in a rush to recall all those Zambian men and women who are serving up to this moment from the previous regime. This must go to show, clearly, that at the point when the United Party for National Development (UPND) took office, the issue of vindictiveness was the furthest from the minds of those who are managing these offices.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: There were a handful of cadres that was brought back here. That handful of cadres that was brought back here into retirement, not into redeployment, knows themselves. Those are the ones who made it their business that when Parliament was dissolved, they jumped onto aeroplanes, took off diplomatic etiquette and wore Patriotic Front (PF) regalia and went into the field to campaign. They are known. Today, I want to argue that they retired themselves by misconduct.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I heard some arguments that came from my hon. Colleague and friend, Hon. Wamunyima, who, in many of his lines of thought, was correct. He talked about the four-week training period for diplomats. The training is Diplomatic Etiquette just like there is Parliamentary Etiquette. When we all come here, we get inducted for two days only on how to become an effective Parliamentarian. We are trained for two days or, at the most, four. So, what is wrong with four weeks to teach etiquette, which is a way of doing things?

Madam Chairperson, I want to assure hon. Colleagues that those people who have been fortunate enough to be sent into foreign missions are men and women who are grounded in their profession. Let me just quickly say that when panic and fear grips a group of people, it is plain to see.

Madam Chairperson, today, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning (hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation) is presiding over nearly 70 per cent of staff that was appointed by the Patriotic Front (PF) into foreign missions. I do not envy him. You know very clearly that some people are victims of the same song that is being sung today. It was unheard of for a UPND sympathiser to be sent into foreign mission. It was taboo. Today, the same people who served under President Edgar Lungu and the PF are still enjoying. Some of those who came back, the ones I referred to, unfortunately, we are not allowed to mention names, have been to see me to tell me that they did not know that Mr Hichilema is this kind of a person because he allowed them to serve for one full year before they came back, even if they had misbehaved.

Mr Mabeta: Emmanuel

Mr Nkombo: I did not mention names. I met a young man in Serenje. Those who come from Serenje know. We had dinner together and he said, ...

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for Kankoyo, please, the hon. Minister did not mention any names.

Mr Nkombo: And I will not.

The Chairperson: ... so, do not put names in his mouth.

Mr Nkombo: This young man, a journalist by profession said to me, “Garry, this monster that they said Hakainde was, I am so shocked he allowed me to work for one full year undisturbed even if I was appointed on the ticket of the biggest noise makers for the PF. When I say noise makers, I mean those who campaign the most.” He actually said that now he believes that not always is loud strong and quiet weak and that Mr Hichilema’s quietness has taught him a lesson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I torment myself everyday and say, why in this world did I ever say things about a man that is so kind as to allow me to serve even after I hurled unpalatables against his persona? There are many like that. So, keep on, my brother and friend, demonstrating to the erstwhile governors, our friends on the left, that governance should not be vindictive because we extract value were it resides.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: You can question and shake your head, but you will just have a muscle cramp. Fact or truth has no disguise. There are people who are still serving now who we are told are even contributing money to the PF. They are there, out in the Diaspora.

Madam Chairperson, I once again congratulate Hon. Kakubo because in the past, previous hon. Ministers of Finance (Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation) could be assigned to go and buy houses or a residences in, say, Turkey or Istanbul, as an example.

They will not go and buy a house, but will come back with an aeroplane from the money that was designated for a house. Is that not molestation of confidence by governors? Those are real examples of the things that used to happen. There was recklessness on the part of the group of people who we were dealing with before.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Wamunyima talked about renting a house for ten years instead of buying a house.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

If you can be more focused and, please, avoid using words that are provoking the other group. You are doing fine so far, but some of the words …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: …that you are using are provoking the other hon. Members in the House. Avoid using those words and try as much as possible to focus on the Vote so that we make progress. We want to hear what you think about the budget for next year. You may continue.


Mr Nkombo: I wish I was told the word I used. I would gladly reverse it, but let me moveon since I do not know the word I used.

Madam Chairperson, the foreign missions before were used for partying. The President just came from Copenhagen, where there was a conference of parties, and he went with a handful of people. Before, they would get like a cargo plane, and would take musicians to go and dance in New York. It became a ministry for gratifying noise makers. I thank the hon. Minister for being serious regarding how he deals with international affairs because how he deals with international affairs out there is how we are perceived here at home.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Amb. Kalimi (Malole): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity on behalf of the people of Malole to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, before I proceed, I wish to send a message of condolences to the family of the Zambian who died on the battlefield in the Ukraine-Russia War, may his soul rest in peace. I urge the Zambian citizens and the parents who have children studying in foreign countries to strictly let them adhere to what has to be followed. In case they went there for school, they should study instead of involving themselves in other activities so that, at least, the name of the country is preserved in that Zambians are peaceful and they follow the rules.

Madam Chairperson, I know that many things have been debated, but as a former diplomat who served the country diligently for the past eight years in foreign countries such as Kenya, where I was the Deputy Ambassador, and in Quanzhou, the mission which I opened, I want to add my voice on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I am a sad person. Sometimes, we need to encourage professional career diplomacy. As a former diplomat, I served as Consul General, the position of Ambassador, and I wonder how I would have felt if I was recalled and given an ultimatum that I leave, maybe, within weeks as if I am a criminal. I think we should avoid this. Ambassadors are people who serve the country diligently. You cannot tell the ambassador in India or China, who maybe even engineered the construction of flyover bridges in this country, to pack and go within seconds, and he/she may not even know who packs his/her clothes and underwear, as if he/she committed an offence. We must completely avoid that and ensure that we respect these people because they are Zambians, whether they were appointed by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government or the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, and they served the country diligently. At the same time, I urge our diplomats, those who are appointed –

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kalimi, I do not think it is parliamentary to talk about people’s underwear. Can you, please, withdraw the word and replace it with a better word.

Amb. Kalimi: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw it, and I replace it with garment.

Madam Chairperson, we must respect the people in the Foreign Service. Whether they are appointed by other political parties or not, they are serving the country and they are Zambians. I hope this budget includes the benefits of all the people who were recalled. Most of them are destitute nowadays and some of them are being kept by priests and have no homes.

Madam Chairperson, let me give an example. If I was in the Foreign Service and my house was on rent, what would happen if I was recalled without even being given money? Let us prepare ourselves as we recall these people. It is not only cadres who have been recalled. Some people who worked under accounts in Quanzhou have been recalled. Immigration officers and other people who are not cadres have been recalled, yet they are civil servants. However, I know that the change of Government also comes with other people and we appreciate that, but we should not ensure that only those who patronize our party are appointed. We should avoid that.

Madam Chairperson, when the President addressed the House, he told people and this House that his priority will be economic diplomacy. I agree with the President because I am an economist, and I was appointed First Secretary in charge of economics before I was promoted to Deputy Ambassador. Economic diplomacy is an in-thing and that is the main reason the embassy exists.

Madam Chairperson, I am at pain shaving looked at the budget for economic diplomacy, which is K3,745,842, compared to the budget for political diplomacy, which isK7,836,336. Yes, there is an increase, but I think we should have concentrated on economic diplomacy. Mind you, diplomats get many allowances. If we cannot generate money in the Foreign Service in terms of bringing investment in the country then I wonder if the Diaspora Policy and the Foreign Policy are going to be implemented.

Madam Chairperson, I encourage the President to continue promoting this country, being the Chief Marketing Officer. Yes, we need to promote and advertise this country, but nevertheless, most of the work can be done by ambassadors and the missions so that we can, at least, lessen the cost of travelling. It is very expensive for the President to travel and even though he has reduced the number of people he travels with, when he travels, it is something else.

Madam Chairperson, I looked at the budget for great lakes regional co-operation. Last year, it was K633,166 and this year, it has been increased to K768,954. Yes, there is an increase, but looking at the instability of the countries in the Great Lakes Region, we needed to allocate more money to great lakes regional co-operation.

Madam Chairperson, we have completely done away with visas for countries like China and the United States of America (USA), and it is a very welcome move. However, what I know as a former diplomat is that a visa is given on reciprocal basis. There is no country which is small. As a Zambian, I would also want to go to the United Kingdom (UK) without applying for a visa. What is so special about the UK and the USA, which is not special about Zambia? Why should an American come to Zambia freely without getting a visa, yet a man from Mazabuka, Magoye and Malole has to apply for a visa to go to China. What is it? Many Zambians have taken a lot of business to China. We are trading a lot. Why should we be subjected to applying for a visa? So, whenever we are negotiating, I think we should do it in a reciprocating way so that even Zambians should not require a visa to go to China. Why should a Zambian apply for a visa to go to UK?

Madam Chairperson, I remember when I was in Kenya, before the Ambassador for Canada and the UK could step in that country, we would issue a visa. For us, when our wives and children want to go to UK for a holiday, they are on the queue for even one month waiting for a visa. Which ambassador or Member of Parliament would want his wife to go and start cleaning pots in the UK? No one! We just want to visit our relatives, but we are subjected to many difficulties in order access a visa to the UK and the USA as if it is the American Government or the British Government which is going to buy the ticket. This is an unacceptable. We should do it in a respectful way. They should respect us, as a country, because Zambia is a sovereign country.

Madam –

The Chairperson: Thank you.

Amb. Kalimi: Apa pene sure.


The Chairperson: Your time is up.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Chairperson, before I contribute to debate on this Vote, let me convey my heartfelt condolences to the bereaved family of Lemekhani Nyirenda who died in Russia.


Madam Chairperson, I support the budget estimates for Vote 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-orporation. Indeed, this ministry plays a key role in trying to promote international relations with the outside world. Kenneth Kaunda raised the bar very high in terms of conflict resolution, not only in the sub-region, but also beyond our borders. So, it is important that the current Government, through the hon. Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-orporation continues raising the bar very high so that Zambia can continue being a role model on the African continent.

Madam Chairperson, it is also expected that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-orporation should regularly update hon. Members of Parliament and the public on issues of foreign policy. We have just been taking about the issue of our student who died in Russia and I think it is important that the hon. Minister quickly comes to this august House and give details of what transpired in Russia, and whether Russia did not abrogate international law to allow a foreigner to fight on its behalf.  We are also interested in knowing whether the Russian Government will be able to compensate the family of the deceased.

Madam Chairperson, while I support the opening of new foreign Missions, it is important that the Missions we are opening drive economic benefits to this country. The expense in the Foreign Service has been huge. Early or mid this year, we had approved a Supplementary Budget of K150 million towards the Foreign Service. That was a very huge expenditure. That money could have been properly invested in other economic sectors. This country is able to achieve a lot of economic development.

Madam Chairperson, other speakers have said we need career diplomats. That is very critical because the Foreign Service has been used as a dumping ground. I remember the days of Kenneth Kaunda where he could say he had dropped a person and had appointed him as ambassador to a certain country. So, there is that history that the Foreign Service was like a dumping ground. The trend as since continued. Party cadres who have very little knowledge in diplomatic service are being appointed to serve in those posts. It is very unfortunate that even when we have put certain courses in international affairs at our universities, and we have graduates who do not have access to these jobs, unless someone is politically connected. I think that should be a thing of the past.

Madam, let me urge the hon. Minister to come up with a Foreign Service Commission so that the people who are appointed to serve in our Foreign Missions are qualified so that we uphold professionalism in our Civil Service.

Madam, like my hon. Colleague said, diplomats are supposed to bring economic value to this country. It is important that those who cannot perform be recalled.  Although the President is a chief marketer of the country, what is the role of some of these High Commissioners and Ambassadors, if the President every month will be on a foreign trip? It is very expensive for this nation. In other countries, Presidents rarely travel because they have a professional Foreign Service with people who are able to woo investors. I think we must move in that direction so that we can save our resources.

Madam, let me also call for transparency in the appointment of people to serve in the Civil Service. I think there has been no transparency at all in terms of appointments to the civil service. So, we want to see to it that we move at another level so that we can uphold the spirit of transparency in terms of appointments to the Foreign Service.

Madam Chairperson, I have seen that we are spending a significant amount of money towards transfers.


Mr Mtayachalo: This is all because we have a tendency of recalling people every time we have a New Government. That is not good. It is retrogressive for this country. It is important to promote continuity because every time there is a change of the Government, people are removed. It is not healthy. Some ambassadors have performed very well in terms of promoting foreign direct investment (FDI). As a former trade union leader, I am very saddened that we usually experience many diplomats being recalled. As a trade union leader, I am not happy with that trend. It is important to know that whoever is in the Foreign Service is a Zambian. We must not look at them as being Patriotic Front (PF), United Party for National Development (UPND) or Socialist Party (SP). I do not think that is going to take this country to another level.

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Mtayachalo: So, with these few remarks, I support this budget estimate.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according the people of the Southern Province an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Chairperson, let me, from the outset, indicate that ever since we formed the Government, I rarely debate. However, I am perturbed and compelled to join this discourse.  Thus, I must ventilate a few ideas so that we clarify the position that is obtaining in this country in relation to the operations of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-orporation.

Madam Chairperson, let me indicate that because I am debating for the first time since this Assembly came into being, allow me to congratulate the people of this country, right across the nine provinces that recently went to vote in the by-elections, where the United party for National Development own (UPND) won resoundingly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: It is very clear that the naysayers, who were saying that the policies of the UPND are not working, are on their own. The people have decided to move with a working Government of a President who is walking the talk. We thank them for voting the way they did. It gives the leadership the confidence it requires to take the nation to a higher level.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, let me indicate a few points for the benefit of some who require the same, as I have heard in their debates.

Madam, firstly, I commend President HH for appointing a vibrant minister who, together with the President, has lifted the flag of this nation to higher levels of integrity.

The Chairperson: Order!

Could you say the names of the President in full rather than saying HH? There are so many people who are called HH.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I want to thank His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, Commander-in-Chief of the Defence Forces, for having appointed a good Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation who has given us a sigh of relief by giving a good international face of Zambia on the global stage.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam, I want to indicate that as parliamentarians, we must move away from hypocrisy. What is good for the goose must be good for the gander. When you set a precedent to send cadres in the Foreign Service, you do not have the moral right to come to this House and say the UPND is now sending cadres. As a lawyer, I know that precedent operates as a law. You rely on it for purposes of reference, but I want to indicate to them that unlike the Patriotic Front (PF), President Hakainde Hichilema and his administration are not sending cadres in the Foreign Service.

Madam Chairperson, I will give you a few examples. Hon. Katuka, Hon. Livune and Hon. Jere are former Members of this House. This is the calibre of people who are being sent into the Foreign Service.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: They are former Members of Parliament and all Members of Parliament by designation are diplomats and that is why we all have diplomatic passports and that is why we are treated as diplomats when we go on the global stage.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Therefore, we have just changed position from this House to another position, but within the realm of diplomacy. This is surely not the calibre that the PF was sending in the Foreign Service and that is why they were quick to leave their positions there to come and join the campaign. Alas, they were joining a campaign where they were going to lose and we are happy that the President has recalled them so that they can sit, watch and belong where they belong.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, let me indicated that President Hakainde Hichilema …

Mr Kambita: Hammer!

Mr Mweetwa:… as number one marketer for this country, has brought a new face to Zambia’s international integrity. That is why you have seen that Zambia’s international debt, which the PF was failing to deal with, is now under active consideration and is being handled with the relevant and requisite attention and support coming from Zambia’s official creditors.

Madam Chairperson, creditors will not trust you if you are not trustworthy. They could not trust the PF but they trust President Hakainde Hichilema and his administration. That is why that nagging question of Zambia’s international debt is being resolved.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam, additionally, you have seen that the PF for many years struggled to get the International Monetary Fund (IMF) stimulus package because it failed on the question of integrity and reliability. However, within months of President Hakainde Hichilema being in office, the IMF has come through. Just a few weeks ago, you saw that the International Development Association (IDA) department of the World Bank has now approved US$275 million in affordable and concessional grants to this country as opposed to the Eurobond kaloba which they were getting.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Once it got the money, it invested it in infrastructure that we cannot see, beginning to hand out and appease cadres –

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister for the Southern Province, I think now we are moving away from the Vote.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: We have gone to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. I think some of the issues that you have brought out can be reserved for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Could we concentrate on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, by having a good ambassador in President Hakainde Hichilema to the global community, Zambia’s economic crisis is being dealt with.

Madam, I have heard comments about the so-called many travels of the President. The President of this country, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is the first President to travel ‘go come’ to the international world as if you are going to Choma and back, but he is going out of the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Whenever he has gone to the United Nations (UN) and other international obligations, on more than one occasion, he has travelled commercial saving huge sums of money, unlike in the past when a President would go with grandchildren, relatives and extended family at great cost to the taxpayer.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Here is the crux of the matter. The difference is when President Hakainde Hichilema has travelled now, his international travels end up in commercial transactions and the signing of Memorandum of Understanding (MoUs) for Zambia’s economic and international co-operation to grow. This is the leadership that we must all come to support unlike coming here to politick.

Madam, as things stand, if I were in the Opposition, I would not even debate, I would just stand up and say I support this Budget because it is on track.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Order!

We have to make progress. We have listened to all the groups. Therefore, I ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation to wind up debate.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Chairperson, the debate has been concluded by the hon. Members who have spoken before me on the right. They have eloquently debated and effectively contributed and I would not want to spoil the soup, but I will make a few clarifications where I noticed that we could assist the House.

Madam, first of all, on the issue of the land in Kenya that was purported to have been given to a Kenyan, I assure the House that immediately we assumed office, this issue of the land was resolved. We got our land back in Kenya and it is on title under the auspices of the Zambian Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakubo: Secondly, I want to offer comfort to the House on the matter of the political budget line increasing while hon. Colleagues have mentioned that we have not increased as much on economic diplomacy. I want to indicate that the budget line on economic diplomacy has also been increased. I mentioned in my statement that Zambia is the in-coming chair of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ on Politics, Peace and Defence. Therefore, finances will be required in order for us to make that organ function at its optimum hence that budget line on economic diplomacy. I hope that can put the debate to rest.

Madam, I also want to clarify the issue of recalls. The standard is that diplomats cannot be in Foreign Service in perpetuity. There is nowhere on the globe where countries keep their diplomats in one country forever. The standard is diplomats are kept in a country on a rotational basis for around three to four years. The good standard is that you must relocate your diplomats either back to the capital or another mission. Even here in our country, you will see the President on television receiving new diplomats that take letters of credence to him. This is because other countries have also done exactly what Zambia is doing.

Madam Chairperson, in addition to that, our standard, as a country, is that when we recall a diplomat, we give him/her notice of three months. However, just like Hon. Nkombo mentioned, there were some mischievous diplomats who had misconducted themselves. There is a provision in the statue that governs us that we can recall a diplomat with immediate effect. We are not going to accept a situation where diplomats leave their diplomatic missions return home and perform party functions in our country. That is not acceptable. It is a resounding warning. You will be recalled with immediate effect. We are within our rights to do so.

Madam Chairperson, again, I want to clarify on the issues regarding infrastructure. It is true that infrastructure in foreign land that belongs to our Government is not in its best condition. This infrastructure was purchased many years ago, some of it by the late President, Dr Kaunda. Successive Governments have not done very well. However, I am happy to report that this issue is receiving active attention. We have seen an increment from K1 million to K68 million; that is progress. As we grow our economy and as we recover from the debt that was left for us by the Patriotic Front (PF), we shall allocate more funds. Suffice it for me to mention that some of our properties have already been repaired and for others that we own outside our borders, funds have already been allocated to ensure that more repairs are done.

Madam Chairperson, the good will that has been spoken about by my hon. Colleagues has not come by fluke. It is because we have a very intentional and hardworking President. I take the words of the hon. Minister for the Southern Province as my own in recognising the good work that the President has done.

Madam Chairperson, the PF Government took this country into the wrong direction in as far as our foreign policy was concerned. I am afraid to mention that this country effectively only had bilateral relations with four countries, which I am reluctant to mention here. Now, Zambia is accepted everywhere. The numbers are showing on how much money we are going to make. I am not yet in a position to mention the next country that the President will go to. However, when he travels, later this month, I can guarantee you the amount of money that we are bringing to this country will not be less than US$20 million to add to budget support.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakubo: I can firmly put on record, even before the President travels, that when he does later this month, not less than US$20 million will be wired into our treasury.

Madam Chairperson, there was an allegation that the New Dawn Government is sending cadres into Foreign Service. I find it completely ironic. Hon. Mung’andu was the first to bring this issue up. We were together in the last Parliament, with other hon. Colleagues, and at no point in those five years did he rise up on the Floor to condemn the actions of his own Government which sent the same cadres that we are recalling now. He never did that.

Madam Chairperson, I further want to assure the House that all tourism attachés that we are sending out are coming from the Ministry of Tourism. These are trained professionals. For all trade attachés who are going to manage our trade desks in our missions, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry is the one who will recommend them in order for us to send them out.

Madam Chairperson, I thank my hon. Colleagues for unanimously supporting our budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you. 

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation – K1,492,242,300)

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3436, Sub-programme 01 – Personal Emoluments – K1,263,648,193. I have noticed that there is a reduction from K 1,618,530,520 to K1,263,648,193 this year. Why has the budget for next year reduced?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Chairperson, the budgetary allocation has reduced on that line owing to the reduction in oversees allowances that we will not pay in the calendar year as some diplomats have been recalled.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 21 – (Loans and InvestmentsMinistry of Finance and National Planning – K15,082,320,754).

The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement on the 2023 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning Vote 21, Loans and Investments.

The main purpose of this Vote, Madam Chairperson, is to formulate and implement Government policy on matters of finance and investment as well as the effective management of public investment. Through Vote 21, the Government implements the policy on loans and investments, which include the recapitalisation of State-Owned Enterprises (SOEs), funding for capital and non-capital projects, and fostering bilateral and multilateral relations through the payment of subscriptions and contributions to international organisations. This Vote is also used for dismantling arrears across the Public Service and for interventions in strategic cross-cutting programmes and projects across the country.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to highlight some of the notable successes under this Vote in the recent past. In the 2022 fiscal year, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through Vote 21, supported road infrastructure and other capital projects to support economic growth. Further, significant outlays were made towards dismantling of domestic arrears with the view to unlock liquidity in the economy. To this effect, domestic arrears have been dismantled to the tune of K5.7 billion as at September 2022.

Madam Chairperson, other notable achievements under this Vote include modernisation of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), the continued roll out of the Government Service Bus, the completion of airport infrastructure, and support to infrastructure development at the Lusaka South Multi-facility Economic Zone (MFEZ). Further, the ministry supported the operations of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) by meeting the shortfall on staff salaries. We also paid off severance packages following the restructuring of Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited.

Madam Chairperson, to attain the objectives set up in the Eighth National Development (8NDP), the Government, through Vote 21, will focus on the following:

  1. dismantling domestic arrears;
  2. supporting infrastructure development in road and air transport;
  3. supporting the completing of rescoped priority projects;
  4. improving border post infrastructure;
  5. establishing a timber exchange; and
  6. infrastructure development at Kasaba Bay and Liuwa Park.

Madam Chairperson, Vote 21 has been allocated a total of K15,082,320,754 in the 2023 Budget to support three programmes, namely:

  1. Financial Investment and Management;
  2. Project Investment Management; and
  3. Centralised Strategic Payments.

Madam Chairperson, this represents an increment of 18.1 percent compared to the 2022 Budget of K12,766,579,633. This increase is largely attributable to the scaling up of the allocation to dismantle the arrears.

Financial Investment and Management

Madam Chairperson, the Financial Investment and Management Programme houses the recapitalisation of state-owned enterprises that is aimed at enabling Save Our Ship (SOS) to become profitable and provide the much-needed employment. The programme will also facilitate the development of the Local Government Financial Management Information System that will be essential in monitoring the utilisation of increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The Financial Investment and Management Programme has been allocated K255 million of which K200 million has been set aside for the recapitalisation and investment. A provision of K45,000,000 has been earmarked to the development of local Government financial management system which is essential in monitoring the utilisation of resources to the lower levels especially under the CDF. Further, K10,000,000 has been allocation to the National Housing Authority to support the operations of the institution as they respond to the need to provide decent accommodation.

Project Investment Management

Madam Chairperson, the Project Investment Management Programme has been allocated K7.4 billion. The Government through this programme will implement capital and non-capital project and other Government initiative.

Madam Chairperson, this programme has three sub-programmes through which my ministry will execute its mandate.

Road Infrastructure Investment Programme Sub-Programme

The Road Infrastructure Investment Programme Sub-Programme has been allocated K4.9 billion for the road sector infrastructure in order to improve transport and logistics. Under this allocation, K528.7 million has been set aside for road upgrades from gravel to bituminous standard. An amount of K1.3 billion for maintenance of main, trunk and district roads, and K2 billion for road rehabilitation. K702 million has been set aside for technical economic visibility study and design.

Madam Chairperson, K442 million is for actual road control, weigh bridge construction, emergency repairs and road safety matters which will reduce vehicle operating course, travel times and congestion. The Government will continue leveraging on the use of alternative financing such as public-private partnership (PPP) in the road sector to accelerate infrastructure in the sector which cannot be done or may take long periods time using the Government resources.

Project Implementation Sub-Programme

Madam Chairperson, the Project Implementation Sub-Programme has been allocated K167.3 million. The notable allocation under this sub-vote includes the integration of various Information and Communications Technology (ICT) system to the Government service bus. Further, K135.9 million has been earmarked for the completion of the Millennium Challenge Account Project which aims at improving water supply and sanitation, while K150 million has been set aside to provide credit guarantee to viable micro, small and medium enterprises.

Capital Project Sub-Programme

Madam Chairperson, the Capital Project Sub-Programme has been allocated K1.5 billion of which K787 million is for infrastructure development.

Madam Chairperson, let me state that the centralised strategic payment vote has been allocated K7.4 billion and aims to unlock the liquidity in the domestic economy and support local business.

Under this allocation, K6.8 billion has been earmarked for dismantling domestic arrears of which K4.1 billion is earmarked for arrears relating to goods and services and K500 million for other personnel related arrears across various ministries and spending agencies.

Madam Chairperson, K1.1 billion is earmarked for the completion of the restructured foreign financed infrastructure projects such as the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA), Chalala Barracks, Kafulafuta Bridge and Nkana Water Project.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, for the 2023 fiscal year, I beg to move that this House considers the budget estimates for Vote 21 to the tune of K15.1 billion. This will ensure that the critical programmes highlighted in this statement, among others, are implemented to the benefit of the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Chairperson, I sincerely thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to Vote 21 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Chairperson, to begin with, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that elaborate ministerial statement, which sets the tone of our debate on this budget line. This budget line is one which is very important and dear to my heart because I am an interested party to see to it that investment in infrastructure is enhanced in this country. This is despite us appearing as though we are coming from a war zone, whereby the economy has been bleeding. However, there are signs of the economy improving because of the parameters that have been set and the prudent management of the economy. This includes the fiscal discipline that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has instituted.

Madam, that being the case, it means that next year will be an interesting year because signs of those milestones we have achieved will start showing up. However, I am just taken aback by the amount that has been allocated to this budget Head. Understandably, I know this is because of the fiscal space that exists and the priorities that have been set. However, it will not go without these comments, so that we take note just in case there will be some space for those interests I mentioned from the outset which I have under this budget line.

Madam Chairperson, of course, public investment in infrastructure is what improves the economy, especially road infrastructure. This is because goods have to be moved from one place to the other. Since our focus is to ensure that commence is done everywhere in this country, it means that we have to invest in infrastructure, especially the rural roads.

Madam, for me who represents a constituency in the rural part of Zambia, I am very interested in these investments. I heard the hon. Minister talk about improvement of road infrastructure, which is one of the budgets that are going to be financed under financial investment management. I heard him mention a meagre K255 million or somewhere there. Then there is also project investment, which is in infrastructure, of about K547 million. It is still too little.

However, Madam Chairperson, this calls for prioritisation. Now, among the priorities that the hon. Minister will set for this budget line, I would like him to consider the road from Zambezi to Chitokoloki, which needs to be upgraded to bituminous standard. I am on record of having talked about this road because we have a situation where Zambezi District Hospital is dilapidated. Most of the patients are being referred to a mission hospital which is about 55 km away from the district centre where the dilapidated district hospital is.

That stretch is bad. It is a gravel road and rehabilitation is not helping at all. It is just fifty-five kilometres we are looking for. Please, let the road from Zambezi to Chitokoloki be included in this budget line so that it can also be improved to bituminous standard. It is a short distance. We are not asking for too much, understanding, of course, the fiscal space within which we are operating.

Madam Chairperson, I thought about investment in infrastructure, especially as regards public-private partnership (PPP) which the hon. Minister talked about. I have in mind some very good points in the North-Western Province, such as the Kipushi Border. There is a road from Solwezi to Kipushi. It is also a very short distance, yet economic. That road could be a priority to be placed on PPP. If possible, or space allows, the Government could still invest in that road.

Madam Chairperson, the Solwezi to Kipushi road is an economic road because there is a lot of trade between the people who live in Solwezi and those in Congo at Kipushi. It is a short stretch; I do not think it goes beyond 150 km. That road is very important.

Madam Chairperson, it was not just the road, but I also heard the hon. Minister talk about border posts. We need a good one-stop-border post, a modern one, at Kipushi. If the Government gave us that, it would have improved the economy of the people of the North-Western Province because whatever they produce, they can sell to the neighbours. The President has been talking about value addition. So, if we produce our tomatoes and the like and we try and add value to them and produce tomato sauce, and peanut butter from groundnuts, we can sell to the Congolese who are really looking for food. They buy literally everything. That is why such a road is very important.

Madam Chairperson, what came to my mind is another road connecting Kalumbila to Kolwezi. This is another very important route in the North-Western Province which we could harness. Under this budget line, please, those I am giving are the priorities which could help us.

Madam Speaker, of course, looking at other issues, and not only the road from Kalumbila to Kolwezi, a border post would help. I am one of those who were even thinking of probably putting up a milling plant nearby so that we could export mealie meal, other than maize. You see, all those are initiatives that would add value and improve our place economically. So, the budget line the hon. Minister has given is welcome. I know we are complaining about how small it is, but there are priorities. I ask him to take note of the priorities that I mentioned, especially the Chitokoloki Road. It is a very important road which needs to be upgraded to bituminous standard.

Madam Chairperson, I also heard about the Financial Investment Management where the hon. Minister has allocated K255 million some of which is going towards the Local Government Infrastructure Information System. This is very important because the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which has been enhanced, requires to be well accounted for. To account for such big monies, you need systems, and putting up of systems costs money. Once systems have been put in place and are working appropriately, we expect everything to flow in terms of accounting for these finances. Even the audit process will be easy because an audit trail will be maintained.

Madam Chairperson, my time is almost up. These are the few words I thought I could contribute on this budget line for the attention of the hon. Minister or his consideration, especially those priorities that I set.

I thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Mutati, the Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning. As I rise to support this Vote, may I also add a few observations. I think, quite clearly, that this money, which I would have wanted to be more, is supposed to stimulate our economy, considering the areas that the Acting hon. Minister highlighted.

You are aware, Madam Chairperson, that our levels of unemployment have become extremely worrying and, obviously, if money starts to be spent in the economy, it is anticipated that there will be some economic growth.

Yes, our target is 3 per cent, but that is not good enough to create the many jobs that we are looking for. As the substantive hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning announced, we are looking for 7 million jobs because of the number of the unemployed young men and women. So, this expenditure will certainly stimulate our economy though not as much as we would want.

Madam Chairperson, I want to draw the hon. Minister’s attention to debt dismantling. This programme has been going on for some time, but there have been dismal effects. There has not been any major impact regarding the investments that the Government has been making to dismantle debt, and no companies are growing at all. Most of the small companies, especially those that did business involving infrastructure, particularly roads, have very bad ratings from the credit bureau reference, and they cannot go and borrow money from banks to support their operations. So, as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning sits to resolve the problem of debt and tries to stimulate this economy, it should put itself in the shoes of those companies that have actually ended up defaulting from banks because of not being paid on time.

Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) falls under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Some of the punitive measures in the contracts, which has led the Government today to owe so many people or companies who engaged in road infrastructure works money, can easily be reviewed. However, the New Dawn Government has been in office for one year, and we have not heard it sit down with any contractors to discuss things like idle time, standalone time or interest on high Interim Payment Certificates(IPCs), and as a result, the debt is swelling. Even if that allocation is invested in these companies, there will be a dismal effect because the debt will continue looming and interest will continue accumulating.

Madam Chairperson, I urge the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to come up with a team or task force which should study what is currently happening, find out how much the Government owes the contractors and how it can actually come up with a plan to pay them. Yes, you can argue that you have cancelled contracts; that is a good thing. However, all those contracts exist because there was a need and a purpose and those particular individuals who were given those contracts were supposed to respond to that community need. So, whether the contracts were cancelled or not, business will still have to move. After all, the Government is the major provider of business anywhere in the world. So, the Government will continue spending.

Madam Chairperson, I will end on the issue of public-private partnerships (PPPs). I have been pushing for Mukambo Road to be worked on. It was put on the PPP list, but it was removed and I do not know where it is now. I think it is important that the Government works on certain short roads, considering that Mukambo Road was almost cut when it rained two or three weeks ago and I do not know how it will be by the end of the year. This is just a stretch of 15km leading to a road that the Congolese constructed, which takes the trucks to Kasumbalesa. My appeal is that the road, which is just 15km, be considered instead of us waiting for PPPs and we all know the structure and how they work. First of all, a person given a PPP project has three months to look for money and two months to appeal in case he does not find the money and that is almost half a year. So, you will discover that PPPs are good but the timeframe and the needs are what makes it difficult for the Government to deliver the projects.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I, once again, support this Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, indeed, we acknowledge the mandate of the –

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1842 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 16th November, 2022.