Thursday, 3^rd November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

EURONEXT PARIS ZAMBIA CONSOLIDATED COPPER MINES INVESTMENT HOLDINGS (ZCCM-IH) SANCTIONED BY

85. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

1. whether the Government is aware that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) was on Tuesday, 4^th October, 2022, sanctioned by Euronext Paris, a French stock exchange company, by transferring its listed shares to the penalty bench/non-compliant issuers, for breach of compliance rules of the company;
2. if so, what urgent measures the Government is taking to make ZCCM-IH compliant and retain investor confidence; and
3. what the cause of ZCCM-IH’s non-compliance is.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the sanction by the Euronext Paris, a French Stock Exchange Company on transfers of its listed shares to the penalty bench/non-compliant issues for the breach of compliance rules of the company. The sanction is as a result of the delay in issuance of the 2021 financial statements which should have been issued by 30^th June, 2022.

Madam Speaker, to redress the situation, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) issued provisional accounts for 2021 within the month of October, 2022. The issuance of the provision of accounts is for Euronext Paris to initiate the process of removing this sanction. In addition, as a way of mitigating this sanction, ZCCM-IH has put in place measures, which include early commencement of the group audit to issue financial statements within regulatory requirements.

Madam, the cause of ZCCM-IH’s non-compliance was because of the delay in the issuance of the 2021 financial statements i.e. ZCCM-IH is yet to publish its financial statements for the year ended 31^st December, 2021. These should have been issued by 30^th June, 2022.

Madam, Speaker, the non-issuance has been occasioned by the delayed completion of the audit of the financial statements. The financial statements audit for the year 2021 awaits completion of fair valuation of assets and liabilities related to the acquisition of 90 per cent shares of Mopani Copper Mines Plc as at 31^st March, 2021. The fair valuation is required for incorporation in the 2021 financial statements as per international financial reporting standards. The fair valuation exercise is expected to be completed before the end of the year and subsequently, the audit will be finalised and the 2021 financial statements issued as required by law for listed companies.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before we proceed, there is an indication. Hon. Member for Chienge, do you have a point of order?

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, actually it was supposed to be a matter of urgent public importance. However, I came a bit late and you had already passed that stage though I really needed to rise on that.

Madam Speaker: There was no indication on that item, so I proceeded to the next one. Unfortunately, that item has already been overtaken by events.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses to this question. I note, from the hon. Minister’s response that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) has not issued its financial statements because it has been waiting for an audit which has delayed because of reasons relating to the re-valuation of the investment that was made in Mopani Copper Mines.

Madam Speaker, my point is that, a re-evaluation cannot take more than a month. Why have the people responsible for the audit taken so long? They were supposed to do this by or before the end of June or July. So, why have they taken so long because that exercise is not supposed to take more than a month?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, although we have taken over and we are now ruling, I will still refer to the past because this thing happened before we came into power, and so that you understand where the confusion is coming from. However, we have put them in place and they are doing the work now. So, the audit is coming out and we will do the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Minister’s responses. Certainly, this matter does not even require a blame game. The status that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) has found itself being relegated is happening for the very first time. What impact has this got in terms of perception with the international stakeholders?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, like I said, we are remedying the situation, but regarding what impact it has had, we have not done that research yet.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, what measures are being put in place to ensure that in future, ZCCM-IH does not delay in issuing or publishing the financial statement.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, ZCCM-IH has, and is still undergoing very serious reforms, and part the reforms is to make sure that it is compliant with all its requirements even in as far as the stock market is concerned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has indicated in his response that the delay was due to the on-going audit. I want to find out something, and I am sure, members of the public are as well interested to know. Considering that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) is an institution that has been known for professionalism, for many years, it has competent and well-qualified people, have the competencies of our people at ZCCM suddenly gone down? Are they no longer that competent? In his assessment as the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, is it the issue to do with competency levels? What has happened that for the first time, we have this huge challenge that needs to be attended to? I know ZCCM has had very competent people. What has happened suddenly?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. However, I do not know whether he is talking about the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), or the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). Can the Member, please clarify?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, which ZCCM are you are talking about?

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I know the hon. Minster is buying time to find an answer, but I will be kind enough to explain my question and clarify it.

Madam Speaker, currently, what we have is the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), and my question was that ZCCM-IH has been known to be a very competent organisation with highly qualified professionals. What has suddenly happened that for the first time, we have failed to prepare audited financial statements?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I do not want to be accused of blame games. However, this is now the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) under the New Dawn. It is going to be competent, that I can assure you.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, when this news broke, there was a concern from the minority shareholders of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) as to the value and integrity of their investment in ZCCM-IH. This afternoon, I thought the hon. Minister would take an opportunity to address the concerns that the minority shareholders have expressed. However, the hon. Minister’s responses so far, have not indicated exactly when ZCCM-IH will come out of this problem. Could the hon. Minister indicate to us when the valuation for Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) going to be done, and the final audited financial statements for ZCCM-IH be published and availed to the listing market.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, the initial question on the Order Paper did not address issues of minority shareholders. It is talking about how ZCCM-IH at that time, misbehaved and never submitted reports. So, as it stands, we were explaining what happened and what we have done about it going forward.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, auditors audit financial statements. In the absence of financial statements, you wonder what is being audited, which has caused the delay. However, the question concerns the failure by the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) to publish financial statements. So, then, which year is being referred to and in which period did this institution misbehave according to how the hon. Minister has put it?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, it is the year-end December, 2021.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Zambezi East, please do not cry lion!

Laughter

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to ask a follow-up question for clarification purposes.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) is a subsidiary of the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) and the IDC oversees what happens at each and every one of its subsidiaries. Of course, it is expected that the Auditor-General would have an interest in the financials of such an institution being a parastatal. It, of course, has a stake in terms of government investment in the institution, when was ZCCM-IH last audited?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, although the question on the Order Paper does not address that point, suffice to say that when you look at this report, you will note that it is talking about the period that occasioned the sanctioning by the stock exchange, meaning it is the period in which it was last audited and the stock exchange was asking for the same. So, the company did not submit. That that is why it was sanctioned. So, it follows then that this is the period it was last audited.

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BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY BILL, 2022

Clauses 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mulenga)): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 2, on page 6, in lines 7 to 13 by the deletion of the definition of "investment" and the substitution therefor of the following:

“investment" has the meaning assigned to the word in the Investment and Trade, Business Development Act, 2022;.

Amendment agreedto. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Zambia Development Agency Bill, 2022

Report Stage on Friday, 4^th November, 2022.

REPORT STAGE

The Anti-Human Trafficking (Amendment) Bill, 2022

The Investment, Trade and Business Development Bill, 2022

Third Reading on Friday 4^th November, 2022

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES

in the Chair]

VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K156,129,395).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Chairperson, indeed, I am a believer of the doctrine of separation of powers of governance among the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary. Each one of these three has a role to play in ensuring that public financial resources are utilised economically, efficiently and effectively. Each one playing its role effectively would mean that public resources would achieve the goals of the people whom we represent.

Madam Chairperson, Parliament or the Legislature, where we belong, plays its role perfectly. This institution scrutinises the report of the Auditor-General and calls witnesses to appear before it, those who have been cited in the report of the Auditor-General. However, there is a big responsibility that needs to be undertaken. You heard in my debate earlier and one of the roles that I mentioned that the Auditor-General performs is notifying institutions like law enforcement agencies when he feels it is fit that they should come in and institute investigations and probably make an arrest. The Judiciary also plays its part in making sure that prosecution and probably conviction takes place once people are found guilty.

Madam Chairperson, I have a question mark in terms of the role that the Executive plays. There has been a challenge. Of course, going by my experience of sitting on the Committee on Parastatal Bodies, which is responsible for accountability, I have seen it all in a document called Treasury Minutes, where the Executive has an opportunity to respond to some of the issues and the recommendations that we make as Parliament. There has been a laisse-faire attitude towards that and many issues still continue piling up. I implore the Executive to take keen interest in the issues that the Auditor-General raises which are contained in that book. What we are seeing coming from the Secretary to the Treasury is really a laisse-faire attitude towards the issues that we recommend that they should be addressed.

Madam Chairperson, we have seen a situation in which members of staff under the control of the Executive have gone scot-free even when we, as Parliament, recommended punishment. Now we have seen a situation in which the public now thinks that Parliament has no teeth and is not doing anything about the issues raised in the Public Accounts Committee or the Committee on Parastatal Bodies. However, it is not our role to discipline or prosecute people. We have played our role perfectly. Who is responsible for ensuring that these members of staff who are cited for flouting the rules are disciplined or prosecuted? It all boils down to what the Executive is capable of doing because these people are under its supervision. So, all the three arms of Government should do their part then we will get value from what the Auditor-General produces. Let us adequately finance this institution for it to be effective.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to make a few comments on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is very important in that it helps the country to ensure that there is transparency as well as accountability as regards how the resources for the country are utilised. One issue that seriously affects the Office of the Auditor-General is underfunding. The money that is allocated to this very important office is not much. I agree with my dear hon. Colleague, Mr Kambita, who said that the Office of the Auditor-General has been struggling to operate because of financial constraints.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General needs capacitation. I note that in this budget, there is an increase in funding, and this is commendable. The hon. Minister has done a great thing because I have seen that there is 50 per cent increase from K103,986,197 this year to K156,129,395 in 2023. I commend the hon. Minister for this great gesture. However, this increase mainly relates to personnel emoluments for the members of staff who are going to be recruited in the provinces because the Provincial Office of the Auditor-General has been made a directorate. So, it is going to result in an increase of members of staff by thirteen per province. Much of this increase; the 50 per cent increase in the budget, will go to the thirteen members of staff per province, which will come to almost around 130 members of staff at the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, this is a commendable thing, but there will still be other constraints that the Office of the Auditor-General will face. For example, I will talk about the additional members of staff. Yes, those are going to help relating to the works that pertain to the provinces, but at the head office, the Office of the Auditor-General needs more members of staff to help in undertaking many audits. If you look at the audits that have been done by the Office of the Auditor-General, you will see that it only samples and it does not audit all the areas that it needs to audit because of the lack of adequate members of staff.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue relates to transportation. Most of the vehicles that the Office of the Auditor-General has are old. So, when you look at the increased responsibilities that the Office of the Auditor-General will have, you will see that it needs additional vehicles. With the increase in Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocation, there will be many construction projects that the Government will be undertaking. To ensure that there is proper accountability and transparency in the way the CDF is used, we will need the Office of the Auditor-General to help us. How will the officers move from Chinsali to Chunga to see how the construction of a school is going? The officers from the Office of the Auditor-General need to move with a vehicle from the Boma to the area where the project is. So, transportation is a serious challenge at the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, let me come to Information and Communications Technology (ICT). You will be surprised to learn that some members of staff at the Office of the Auditor-General do not have laptops and these people are working very hard to help protect the money for a person who is in Chinsali or to help all of us safeguard the resources of the country. For them to work properly, they need up-to-date ICT equipment and proper gadgets, especially laptops. This one is non-negotiable. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, let us help these members of staff at the Office of the Auditor-General. Let us equip them with the tools that they need to do their work well.

Madam Chairperson, regarding the issue of employing more members of staff, one would say that we are facing financial challenges so where are we going to get the money to make sure that these people get paid. When the Office of the Auditor-General is properly equipped and adequately staffed, it will help us protect Government resources. Year in and year out, the Auditor-General releases reports on uncollected revenue. That is money that the Government is supposed to collect but it is not. The Office of the Auditor-General can help us collect those funds. We have wasteful expenditure where we have government workers who are abusing the money for the country. When the Office of the Auditor-General is adequately staffed and properly equipped, we can reduce wasteful expenditure.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us talk about unaccounted for revenue. This is money the Government collects, but it does not reach the Government coffers or the bank where government funds are supposed to be kept. So, the office of the Auditor-General can help us. We have civil servants who are on the payroll, yet the controlling officers do not know where these people are.

Madam Chairperson, if the Auditor-General’s office is capacitated adequately, it will help us to know where the people are and also help us realise savings, not to talk about the overpayments. Many times, you find that people who work with the Government or the suppliers claim for money for things that they have not supplied. So, if the Auditor-General’s Office is well capacitated, some of the problem we face will be reduced and we will stop hearing about them.

Madam Chairperson, I advise the hon. Minister that we have two Acts that have not been operationalised. We have the Public Audit Act No. 29 of 2016. It was enacted in 2016, in this Parliament, but it has not been operationalised. It is a non-contentious issue. All we need is just to issue a commencement order.

Madam Chairperson, we are relaying the hon. Minister to help us with operationalising the Public Audit Act. Then we also have the State Audit Commission Act No. 27 of 2016. It has also not been operationalised. I understand that there may be issues to do with resources because to operationalise a commission, we need money and if we do not have money, it is big issue. However, we can copy from other countries like Uganda, where they have adopted other approaches like using a committee from the Members of Parliament who are already getting paid so that we reduce on expenses.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing the special people of Chasefu to add a voice on this Vote for the Auditor-General’s Office. Firstly, I thank my hon. Colleagues who have spoken before me over this important matter.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General will be very important if this country is going to ensure that there is accountability and prudent use of resources. Every Government strives to ensure that there is prudence in the utilisation of resources.

Madam Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for increasing the budget allocation to this office, particularly, that resources will be used to recruit new staff. We need new staff to ensure that all the institutions in this country are audited accordingly.

Madam Chairperson, just like others, I bemoan seeing flashing or screaming headlines year in year and year out about revelations coming from the Office of the Auditor-General. The expectations of the Zambians are that we need to follow up these revelations.

Madam Chairperson, we have a Government that is striving to ensure that it utilises resources prudently so they reach all the sectors. We develop this country accordingly. However, if we see resources being misapplied, misappropriated, it is a sorry story. So, it is my hope that the increase in budgetary allocations as stated on this Vote will enhance prudence and accountability.

Madam Chairperson, the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a commendable thing, a legacy policy taking the monies to the rural communities. Now, my expectation and the expectations of the people of Chasefu is that the Auditor-General’s Office is going to be effective to ensure that those resources that have been given to these constituencies are utilised according to the expectation of the Government. It is also my expectation that these audits should not take more than twelve months. So, the increase in the number of members of staff will ensure that we have speedy audits that are going to reveal misappropriations or any mismanagement of resources.

Madam Chairperson, this CDF will only be appreciated if all the resources are used accordingly. Now, the Auditor-General’s Office brings out issues and these issues are recommended for prosecution. It will be just ceremonial to have flashing headlines, yet no action is taken thereafter. It is my expectation and hope that this Government or this House will come up laws besides what the Auditor-General’s Office bring out, to make sure that those who are found wanting for misappropriation of resources are brought to book. That is when we are going to appreciate all these increments we are giving the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, before I came to this Parliament, there were flashing headlines about funds misapplications but nothing happens. It is business as usual. Today, we are lamenting everything and increasing the budgetary allocation, but what happens afterwards? The Zambians are expectant and they want us to ensure that we bring to a halt this ‘business as usual’ mentality and instead, we must ensure that these resources that have been given to all sectors in this economy are utilised properly.

Madam Chairperson, this country can do better, if we can protect our resources. So, it is my hope that through what we have done through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and Government; increasing the allocation to monitor and audit all sectors, these monies will be protected and utilised for the benefit of this country. Then this country can be changed, starting with this Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move and I support the Motion.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to add two sentences to the debate that is on the Floor of this House.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important to, first of all, understand where the Office of the Auditor-General is coming from.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is a creation of this National Assembly. Its establishment is enshrined in Article 250 of our Constitution and its fundamental role is to ensure that we audit state organs, provincial administrations, local authorities and all those institutions which get their funding from the public coffers.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is very important and it brings out two fundamental issues. One of the issues is accountability and transparency. When we talk about transparency, we talk about ensuring that all those who get funding from the state or from public coffers ensure that all the money or funding which they get is put to good use. It is also about all the citizens of this country being able to scrutinise and see whether, indeed, those funds were put to good use.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, when we talk of accountability, it means that all the coins, funds that have been allocated to this institution are put to good use as every coin counts. This alone, will help prevent misappropriation of the government funds.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important also to indicate that the Office of the Auditor-General faces a couple of challenges. Among those challenges is the failure to provide documents at the time of auditing and this has been observed for a couple of years. This is because the institutions that are funded by the Government are not ready to avail the documents to the auditors despite the notice that they are given by the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, under normal circumstances, before the Auditor-General moves into any particular ministry or organ that receives money from government coffers, it gives notice. Unfortunately, from the records, those notices are not respected because there is always a complaint that is found in the Auditor-General’s report that documents the office requested for in order for it to actually execute its duties were not availed.

Madam Chairperson, the second issue is the lack of legal efficacy. The jurisdiction of this office is clearly stated. Unfortunately, the duties or responsibilities of the Auditor-General only end at recommendation. This has caused many problems in this country whereby, people who are assigned to manage the affairs of public institutions have no fear anymore.

Madam Chairperson, it is my suggestion, through this House, that since this institution was an establishment of this House, this same House ought to sit and see whether, indeed, it is inevitable to give this body or office powers to prosecute those who are found wanting.

Madam Chairperson, the other challenge is the issue of the lack of timely funding to this office. If you look at the current Auditor-General’s report, you will see that it is actually behind by two or three years. Based on this alone, it is very difficult for law enforcement agencies to actually execute or enforce the law on those people who are found wanting.

Madam, it is our hope, now that the budget has been increased, that timely funding to this institution will be enhanced so that those who will be found wanting will be taken to task. Further, those who will be enforcing and executing the laws will be able to do what is required within a reasonable period.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, let me start by saying that the operations of the Office of the Auditor-General have been hampered greatly by the lack of funding. This allocation that is being proposed now, of K156 million, is well supported. However, I would rather it is actually even doubled because there is a lot of work. Obviously, the office understands how much work is required to be done. With the current funding, you will understand that sometimes even in the provinces, by the time they are hitting half year, they would have exhausted their allocation and then just start waiting for any further funding. Sometimes, they go without doing any more work.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to refer to our Constitution, Article 249, which talks about the decentralisation of the Office of the Auditor-General. I would support this very much. I hope that the recruitment of new staff that has been mentioned in the budget for next year will centre more on the lower organs of the structure than the high positions. The Constitution provides that the Office of the Auditor-General shall decentralise to provinces and progressively to districts.

Madam Chairperson, that requirement is needed now more than ever because we have seen a lot of money that is going out there in the provinces. We have the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and a lot of grants going to schools. Therefore, the Auditor-General’s office needs to get closer and closer to where activities are happening.

Madam, decentralisation is one thing that must be taken into consideration so that we do not just end at the province. Progressively, we need to also start establishing offices in districts so that we fulfil the provision in the Constitution and at the grassroots where the activities needing the Auditor-General’s services are also happening.

Madam Chairperson, let me also refer to Article 234 of the Constitution, which provides for the establishment of the State Audit Commission. The function of the State Audit Commission is to actually supervise the operations of the Office of the Auditor-General. The absence of this commission simply means that there is no one supervising. There is no effective supervision of this office.

Madam Chairperson, in fact, this restructuring that we are talking about, such as the creation of a directorate, additional staff and how the operations will be done, would have better been done, first of all, by establishing this commission, which would have scrutinised the proposed operations and restructuring that is happening.

Personally, I feel that going straight into this restructuring and creation of positions without the commission that should be supervising, may probably be climbing the tree from the leaves other than the trunk. So, I think that we could give strong consideration to the establishment of this commission, so that the Office of the Auditor-General is also audited.

Madam Chairperson, the next issue is the functions of this office. The functions of the Office of the Auditor-General, as set up in Article 250, are very clearly established. I agree with the previous speakers who have talked about the timely audit because an audit is only valuable when it comes out on time. We need to look at the happenings in the spending institutions and ministries on time. It does not help for us to look at a report that is two or three years behind us.

Madam Chairperson, to enhance the operations of this office, we need these audits to be done on time. I also want to look at some of the reports that we have been receiving from the Office of the Auditor-General. There is an adage which says, “An auditor is a watchdog and not a bloodhound”. What that means is that auditors approach their work with a questioning mind and not necessarily a suspicious mind.

Madam Chairperson, when we look at some of the reports and sensational headlines that have been coming out of the reports from the Office of the Auditor-General, they leave much to be desired. The country is now tired of sensational headlines like “K33 million FTJ money paid for nothing”, “US$40 million spent on Lusaka Decongestion” or “Ghost workers discovered”. What else? What happens? In fact, when you actually look at the details that are behind these headlines, they are totally contrary to what the screaming headlines show as presented by the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, in this regard, we must stick to the mandate. Of course, there is also provision. If officers in the Office of the Auditor-General know that a finding is suspicious, I do not think it is up to the Office of the Auditor-General to come out and create those sensational headlines. Let the office of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) or the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) deal with those issues. The Office of the Auditor-General should approach its work with a questioning mind and not leave the country wondering as to what happens next after those screaming headlines that we read about.

Madam, for the effective implementation of the functions of the Office of the Auditor-General, I think we need to look at the approach starting from the secretariat here in Lusaka to the provinces and also down to the districts. We need to ensure that we are on time and are not missing the activities that are being carried out in districts and provinces.

Madam Chairperson, therefore, I just want to mention once again, that we need to give strong consideration to the establishment of the State Audit Commission because all these things that we are talking about will result in effective performance. After all, even the auditor also needs to be audited. In our case, the one to audit the auditor is the State Audit Commission. So, please, let us put strong consideration to that so that we effectively see this office functioning.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, I still urge the hon. Minister to look through the Budget and see if we can add more money to this office, other than the K156 million that is being provided.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving us, the people of Kafulafuta, an opportunity to submit our humble opinion on the budget which is on the Floor. To start with, the people of Kafulafuta are in absolute agreement with the Budget which has been presented to this House. They feel that the Office of the Auditor-General is cardinal to us as a nation and that without it, our nation would be subjected to financial abuse and other abuses that come under its discipline.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Kafulafuta are delighted to note that the Office of the Auditor-General is considering to employ more staff. I suppose this will be done this year and next year. However, the people of Kafulafuta note that we have no indication as to where those members of staff will operate from. In short, the people of Kafulafuta feel that the Office of the Auditor-General needs to have quality and adequate office accommodation because this is not reflected in this particular report. Otherwise, we completely agree with the Budget.

Madam Chairperson, as other speakers have indicated, the people of Kafulafuta feel that maybe, we needed to give a bit more money to the Office of the Auditor-General. The only hope and consolation that the people of Kafulafuta have is that they have absolute faith in the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. They adore him so much hoping that maybe, these figures came from the Office of the Auditor-General.

Generally, Madam Chairperson, we wish to put our emphasis on the fact that this office should not be limping in its operations, be it transport, equipment or office accommodation, we feel that this office needs to be adequately financed.

Madam Chairperson, looking at the money that has been allocated to salaries and wages, we the people of Kafulafuta, feel that the amount looks huge, maybe, from an individual’s perspective. However, we suspect that when this is tabled to the office in its entirety, it may not be as handsome as it looks. It is the opinion of the people of Kafulafuta that the staff under the Office of the Auditor-General need to be well-remunerated so that maybe, we can lessen bribes from potential offenders. Although we are quite alive to the fact that corruption does not respect how much one gets, we feel that this could help in a way if the members of staff from the Office of the Auditor-General are well-paid, so that they can live up to the standard required of them.

With these words, Madam Chairperson, the people of Kafulafuta would like to submit their opinion as such.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Members who have debated this Vote for the Office of the Auditor-General. I think all of us who were listening do appreciate what has come out this afternoon. I think we have had a very objective debate on this Vote and everybody has actually agreed that there is a need for this office to be allocated more funds. I think this has, literally, come from everybody who has debated. It is not for luxury but, there is a need for effective functioning of the institution. For the institution to do that, it needs to be well-funded. It should also be noted that in this Budget, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the Government have given this office a little more funding than it has received before.

Madam Chairperson, I assure the august House that this is just the beginning. We do realise that there is a need to audit. Like it has been observed, we do not want audits that come two or three years after. There is a need for timely debate, and as a commission, this is what we would like to do.

Madam Chairperson, we take note of the non-operationalisation of the Act for example, and also, the need to put in place or establish the commission. We take note that the commission will play a supervisory role over the Auditor-General. Therefore, the Act will make the Auditor-General’s Office function well. We have taken note of those very important and objective concerns.

Madam Chairperson, there is concern that a number of debaters have brought out. They have said that the work of the Auditor-General becomes more academic if nothing is done to the offenders or people who are found to have misappropriated or misapplied funds. It is repeated year in and year out. They are saying that there is a need for more enforcement. In fact, it is noted that actually, the Auditor-General has the power to report some of these acts to the law enforcement agencies. I think it is important for this House to note what has come out in the report, that there is a need to also enforce the power of this House to be able to see that action is taken, after hon. Members have gone through the report.

Madam Chairperson, in fact, it has been observed that the Executive is not taking recommendations from this House seriously. I think that this will be taken seriously because that is the purpose of going through the report. It is not just going through reports and doing nothing. So, we have to follow what is in the Action-Taken-Reports.

Madam Chairperson, these are some of the concerns that have come through. Hon. Members are agreeing that if the Auditor-General’s Office is empowered enough, as this Government is trying to do, it will bring about accountability and prudent management of resources. We take note and appreciate that the commission is expanding. We intend to do that. This expansion is also working for decentralisation. I think the hon. Members do realise that the office is not just at the national headquarters but, going down to the provinces. The intention is to get right to the districts so that the audit is not just for some institutions. I note that certain institutions are not audited because of not having enough funds and manpower. Now, there is an issue of expanding the structure. This will help in covering the institutions that have to be audited, and that includes the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which will also be audited all over the country.

Madam Chairperson, let me just say that I appreciate, on behalf of the commission, that everybody is concerned. We would want to see the commission work well by bringing out timely reports that do not have screaming sensational headlines. Probably, it was their opinion that there should not be screaming sensational headlines.I do not know how the headlines would come out if they found out that there was, indeed, terrible abuse of public resources. We have to interest the people and I think sensational headlines also help people to read and find out more. If they keep quiet, nobody will want to read what is going on, but that is important. They form an opinion and it makes all of us read. I am sure the hon. Minister has been listening to these issues and will continue to improve on the resources given to them so that they work to protect our resources.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K156,129,395).

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4, Budget Summary – K156,129,395. Out of this K156,129,395, K139.1 million is domestically financed and K17 million is from co-operating partners. I would like to find out who these co-operating partners are.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I think the question is difficult for me. I did not peruse the Yellow Book to see where the income is coming from particularly for this programme.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K545,268,996).

The Vice-President(Mrs Nalumango): Madam Chairperson, I am honoured to present the 2023 Budget Estimates for Vote 08 – Cabinet Office – Office of the President.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office is the highest administrative organ in the Public Service. It is charged with the responsibility of securing the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service. It is also responsible for monitoring and evaluating the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of Government business.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office derives its mandate and functions from Article 176 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016. It operates directly under the Office of the President and comprises the following:

1. Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet;
2. Administration Division;
3. Management Development Division;
4. Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division; and
5. Gender Division.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office is headed by the Secretary to the Cabinet and he is assisted by two Deputy Secretaries to the Cabinet. One is in charge of administration and the other is responsible for finance and economic development. Each division is headed by a Permanent Secretary.

Madam Chairperson, in executing its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by the following mission statements: to oversee and co-ordinate the Government policy process, programmes and systems in order to secure the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service.

Overview of the 2022 Operations

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, a total of K250,690,855 was appropriated to Cabinet Office. Positive strategic results were realised by the office in line with its three key thematic areas outlined in the balanced score card. The major programmes undertaken in 2022 include:

1. successfully managed the conduct of all state and official functions;
2. facilitated the conduct of Cabinet Meetings as well as Cabinet Committee Meetings;
3. facilitated the orientation of the newly appointed senior Government officials and councilors;
4. facilitated the operationalisation of the Emoluments Commission and established the Emolument Focused Framework for 2022 to 2027;
5. co-ordinated performance management and development of service delivery charters in the Public Service;
6. undertook the design, realignment and review of organisational structure for Government ministries and institutions; and
7. undertook gender audits in five ministries, trained seventeen-line ministries in gender responsive planning and budgeting, conducted capacity building in the business skills for women and community sensitisation on cultural resetting to enhance gender equity and equality.

2023 Budget Estimates

Madam Chairperson, in 2023, a total of K545,268,996 budget estimates are proposed for Cabinet Office to attain its mandate in line with the aspirations of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). Cabinet Office will execute the following key programmes:

Public Service Leadership

The programme is aimed at improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service. The main output expected from this programme includes:

1. leadership development which will encompass orienting and capacitating senior Government official at various levels;
2. provisional of administration guidance to ministries, provinces and spending agencies through the issuance of Cabinet Office circulars; and
3. provisional of policy guidance to Executive and senior management through meetings.

Public Service Management Development and Co-ordination

The programme is aimed at providing technical support to ministries, provinces and spending agencies. It will among others facilitate the following:

1. design and implementation of strategic plans, organisational structures, systems and work processes as well as co-ordinating Public Service reforms; and
2. implementation of the Decentralisation Policy.

State and Presidential Affairs

This programme is aimed at enabling the Presidency perform ceremonial, constitutional and other national duties. The main operations will include:

1. management of state functions;
2. management and co-ordination of Presidential affairs;
3. management of the Office of the Former President;
4. management of the affairs of the families to Former Presidents; and
5. providing logistical support for the affairs of freedom fighters.

Policy Analysis and Co-ordination

The programme entails providing technical support to public agencies in the formulation of policies as well as providing secretariat services to Cabinet and Cabinet Committees. The main operations will include:

1. taking minutes and conveying Cabinet decisions;
2. co-ordinating development and implementation of policies;
3. orienting newly appointed senior Government officials; and
4. monitoring and evaluating the implementation of Government and Cabinet decisions.

Gender Equity and Equality

The programme seeks to coordinate and monitor the implementation of the national gender policy to ensure gender responsiveness in national development. The focus for the programme will be to

1. institutionalise gender mainstreaming;
2. eliminate gender-based violence (GBV);
3. revolutionarise approaches to women empowerment by implementing sustainable inclusive and equitable climate smart women empowerment programmes that will border on job creation through agri-business as an engine for empowerment;
4. enhance research on major drivers of GBV, teenage pregnancies and early marriages;
5. end teenage pregnancies and early marriages; and
6. capacity building women in life business skills.

Management and Support Services

This programme entails the provision of human and financial resources, logistical and other support services to Cabinet Office. The main operations will include;

1. provision of skilled and motivated human resource;
2. prudent management and utilisation of financial resources;
3. management of air travel in the Public Service;
4. provision of a conducive and secure work environment; and
5. provision of a conducive environment for the engagement of the public and private sectors.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office assumes a great responsibility of driving the Government agenda of nation building through the provision of policy direction and systems that enhance service delivery to the citizenry. To enable the office to effectively execute its mandate, I submit the 2023 budget estimate of expenditure for Cabinet Office to this august House for your support and approval.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the voice of Chienge to contribute to debate on the Policy Statement for Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, following the policy statement presented by Her Honour the Vice-President, I first want talk about gender. I have been wondering why in Zambia, women have been pushed to the kitchen. If you look at the recruitments that are taking place, you will see that more men are still being recruited. If we just take a look at where we are here, we see that we have more men and only seventeen elected female Members of Parliament.

Mr Munsanje: They are twenty-one.

Rev Katuta: Madam Chairperson, we are really having challenges in our nation. If we are going to continue –

The Chairperson: Ms Katuta, there are actually twenty-one elected female Members of Parliament, and not seventeen.

Rev. Katuta: Thank you for the correction, Madam Chairperson.

We only have twenty-one and the rest out the 156, are males. That is why you see them bringing tension in the country.

Hon. Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: So, it is very important that whenever there is a chance of employing, Cabinet should focus on women because what these men have been doing in our country is something else. They bring confusion.

Hon. Members: What confusion?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, just listen to the way they are talking even now. They are troublesome. They are full of ego...

Hon. Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: ...that is why we are having this tension. Let me continue. I also just want to complain on the issue of state functions. This is my second term in Parliament and we have been talking about this issue of state functions for quite some time now. When there are state functions, hon. Members of Parliament are nowhere on the list. I recently attended one state function and when I looked at the programme, the Members of Parliament were not there. This thing of having the mayors attend state functions while Members of Parliament do not does not give us that honour as we are called honourables. That is why you sometimes see us shun these state functions because we are not included on the programmes. At times, we are only told about the functions at the last minute. It is like a by -the-way or a second thought invitation. When they remember that there are also Members of Parliament, that is when we receive invitations. I think this time around, Cabinet should try to change things. We want to attend these functions as honourable Members, but when we look at the programme, we note that they only talk about the mayor, Permanent Secretaries (PSs), District Commissioners (DCs) and others, while Members of Parliament are left out. So, I think they need to work on this, one on a serious note.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the budget for this office.

Madam Chairperson, I have seen that the budget has gone up, and it is quite high. I would like to ask Cabinet Office to look at the escalation margin whenever it is doing the budgets. I think this is something that we will talk about when we come to individual items.

Madam Chairperson, I am still insisting for an answer on why more men, compared to women, are picked when the Defence Forces and the Police Service are employing. I am insisting on this because it falls under Her Honour the Vice-President’s responsibility. We should change the narrative. This is the reason the girl child continues to be vulnerable. So, I think, it is very important that this particular department takes things seriously. When these adverts are placed, and when dealing with commissions responsible for employing, Cabinet Office should put in a word and say those employing must make sure that more girls get employed. This is all I wanted to say, but I insist that those responsible must reduce the number of male folks.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised. Mr Mung’andu, what is your point of order?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I have a serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65. Is the immediate past speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament in order to accuse us men, as the ones who are bringing confusion in the country? She is saying male parliamentarians or male leaders are the ones who are bringing confusion in the country. Is that statement factual and verifiable? The public is watching and it will believe that male parliamentarians, like Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and others, particularly, the hon. Minister for Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development are the ones who are bringing confusion in this country. I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you, Mr Mung’andu. I think you have debated that point of order. We can move on.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to make a few comments on this very important Vote; Vote 08 – Cabinet Office, which has been presented by Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office should be viewed as the engine of any Government. That is the engine of the Government. For the Government to function and succeed, this very important office has to be up to the scratch.

The requirement in the Constitution of appointing a constitutional office holder, on whose shoulders this office is anchored, the Secretary to the Cabinet, was to ensure that the person assuming that office is competent with the necessary experience in the Government, a person who understands the functions and procedures of the Government, and who would make sure that all portfolio functions assigned in different Government institutions are supervised effectively. It was not meant to be a challenge.

So, we want the appointing authority to expedite the process of appointing a substantive office holder of the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet. That is very important. This institution will be waiting for Her Honour the Vice-President to bring that appointment to this august House, as per requirement.

Madam Chairperson, the delay should not be ignored because it has a bearing on other functionalities of the Government. So, we are requesting the Leader of Government Business in the House to ensure that this issue is addressed.

Madam, Cabinet meetings are very critical because that is where policy directions on how the Government is going to take the country forward in terms of development are facilitated, as Her Honour the Vice-President alluded to. So, we need to have a substantive office bearer who will be able to advise with a clear mind.

Madam Chairperson, we have spoken about the Decentralisation Policy. Again, this has been what we can say work in progress for a long time. The challenges that we have encountered through the dispensation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which has been increased, are because we want to take a piece meal approach to the Decentralisation Policy. If we take a holistic approach, we will find that it is well structured. All that is needed is to ensure that matching resources are put in the decentralised structures of the Government at all levels. This issue that we have had of saying CDF is a challenge when it is supposed to be smooth sailing would have been avoided because answers lie in this very important policy and it its implementation.

Madam Chairperson, pilot programmes have been done, and they just need to be followed through to ensure that necessary resources are channelled to the same.

Madam Chairperson, one of the key functions under Cabinet Office is that of the former Presidents. Unfortunately, we have lost most of our former Presidents. We are just remaining with one. It is important that we re-look at the policy of looking after our former Heads of State and their families so that the challenges that could be encountered, especially by families of late former Presidents could be looked into.

Madam Chairperson, I will talk about one issue on this matter. As much as we only recognise former Presidents, we have changed the Constitution. According to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, the Office of the Vice-President has now changed from the way it used to be. Previously, it was the discretion of the sitting President to appoint the Vice-President, but now, this office has been constitutionalised. It means that there is no much difference between the President and the Vice-President. So, as we look at the issue of former Presidents, we must not ignore the constitutional provision which provides for the Vice-Presidency. The Vice-Presidency now comes through the running mate provision. It is basically part of the Presidency. We must do everything possible to make sure that we realign the way we look at this office. It is no longer the same. I know that Her Honour the Vice-President might not be able to speak to this because of issues of interest, but it is beyond the person that is in the office. We are talking about the office now and going into the future. We can only look at the period from 2016 going forward…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: ... because that is when this was changed in the Constitution. It is key.

Madam Chairperson, the other matter I want to bring to the attention of Her Honour the Vice-President is this thing of making Cabinet Office a packing place for people who have been re-called from different government departments. This must be avoided. We need to have a professional Civil Service. We are a democratic nation as it is.

Madam Chairperson, there was the United National Independence Party (UNIP), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), the Patriotic Front (PF) and now the United Party for National Development (UPND) and there will be others to come. However, we should have a Civil Service that should outlive political cycles. When we say civil servants must be loyal to the Government of the day, it simply means that every professional civil servant must understand that when there is a change of Government, they have a responsibility to be loyal to the party that comes into office. For instance, people who are being recruited this time around should not be viewed as UPND cadres, no. If we do that, we are not building a Civil Service that will serve the nation beyond political cycles. So, going forward into the future, let us stop packing productive and qualified personnel at Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing the people of Mbabala to comment on this Vote.

Mr Mubika: The people of Mambala!

Mr Munsanje:Mbabala (laughs)

Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing the people of Mbabala to comment on Vote 91, and support the allocated budget of K545 million. We support with the comments that will follow.

The Chairperson: Mr Munsanje, we are on Vote 08.

Mr Munsanje: Sorry, it is Vote 08. I will need to amend my notes, but I support the Vote, anyway.

Laughter

Rev. Katuta: Late comers!

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: I am supporting Vote 08 – Cabinet Office. So, ba COBUSU (Copperbelt University Student’s Union), easy.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office, indeed, is the engine of any Government. It is, therefore, important that we get the best value out of Cabinet Office as it houses a number of important functions for the efficient running of each Government that comes into office. Definitely, as the New Dawn Government, we look forward to a professional and efficient Cabinet Office that is oriented to the New Dawn Manifesto and the methodical way of doing things.

Madam Chairperson, in the past, we, have experienced glitches in some functions, and sometimes, in the outline of activities. I wish to speak, for example, on state functions. We need a clear protocol from Cabinet Office on how to address a number of attendees to these functions. I also want to echo the issue of hon. Members of Parliaments’ recognition at various state functions and also, ensuring that the right protocol is followed to ensure that we are not lost in these things and are given the right order.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: Madam Chairperson, I also want to add on to the issue of the establishment of the Emoluments Commission which we know the previous regime was very scared of and failed to actualise. I wish to commend Cabinet Office for ensuring that it is now actualised. This must be followed with clear issues around job analysis and evaluation for us to give the right value to every job that is going to be managed by the Emoluments Commission.

Madam Speaker, I also want to commend the Government for coming up with a balance scorecard at Cabinet Office because that is the scientific way of modern management. Those are the things that we want to continue taking forward.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of decentralisation comes out as very important, especially as we heard during debate for last Vote where the Office of the Auditor-General is also decentralising and adding capacity to the provinces and districts. Indeed, it will be good to marry this with what Cabinet Office is doing in this manner of decentralisation.

Madam Speaker, the issue of freedom fighters, former Presidents and the like, is of concern to me. We need to honour all and I agree to also include former Vice-Presidents going forward. However, I also want to point out that we have, for example, senior headman Lupata in my constituency who has been headman since 1948. We brought this to the attention of Cabinet Office for him to be honoured but this has not happened. Senior headman Lupata is a serious freedom fighter.

Madam Chairperson, we also have another young man who rescued people who were almost drowning when there were floods in Mbabala. I am sure all hon. Members saw that. We submitted his name for honouring but he was not honoured. When we submit these names from the grassroots, let those people be identified and honoured so that we can honour all.

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about issues of gender responsiveness that have been brought under Cabinet Office. I want to commend the office and indicate that it needs to reorient the state institutions that are responsible for the implementation of the Anti-Gender-Based Violence Policy, the Anti-Gender-Based Violence Act as well as the various pieces that support the elimination of early and teenage pregnancies and the like. State institutions such as the Zambia Police will need to be reoriented to ensure that they are living the word and upholding values of this country.

Madam Chairperson, I had a case recently where a young lady reported a gender-based violence (GBV) case and she was told that she reported late. To me, anybody who goes to report a law that has been broken does not need to be told that they have reported late. As long as a law was broken, whatever time a person reports, it must be prosecuted and it must be taken up by the state institutions. Therefore, it is important that these institutions understand the Anti-Gender-Based Violence Act because it is clear that any act of harassment, abuse, or exploitation attracts criminal prosecution.

Madam, the Eight National Development Plan (8NDP) is an important instrument to galvanise the development of this country. Indeed, it is important that the monitoring and evaluation function at Cabinet Office aligns itself to measure how we are doing in that area, together with the State House monitoring and evaluation team, to ensure that we get value and quality reports that will inform the nation about all the beautiful and wonderful achievements that the New Dawn Government is achieving. Every day, the New Dawn Government is scoring big. It is scoring on employment, agriculture, …

Hon. Opposition Members: FISP!

Mr Munsanje: … and all the programmes that are needed in this country. We are scoring every day and people need to be informed by a good monitoring and evaluation system, and a good reporting system that reports to the public, periodically. We need to see these reports quarterly, semi-annually or annually, so that the people can be told the right message.

Madam Speaker, losing an election is very painful and we can understand the cry from your left.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: They are crying because they lost elections by 2.8 million.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: Order, Mr. Munsanje!

I have not heard Her Honour the Vice-President talk about elections in her policy statement and it is not even there under Vote 08. So, I wonder why you had to bring in the issue of elections. We just had Vote 05 – Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Interruptions

Mr Munsanje: It is painful on their side.

Madam Chairperson: Mr. Munsanje, it is best you withdraw the statement because I cannot see the people who are crying. Withdraw the issue of by-elections. Just withdraw that so that we move forward.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word “crying” and replace it with “mourning.”

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: MrMunsanje, I said you should withdraw that statement about by-elections because it has brought noise in the House and we cannot make progress.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the words.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving this chance to the people of Lundazi to add their voice to this Vote under debate. I want to, firstly, state that I am in support of this Vote, especially since it is housing the gender department where we, women need serious representation.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Chairperson, most of the time, women are very shy to talk about their benefits and this has made them remain behind. This time, I want to appreciate that money has been allocated in this budget for women empowerment. There was nothing in 2021 and 2022, but for 2023, there is K15 million. I just want to appreciate that we are now focusing on where the challenges are.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of gender mainstreaming, we have moved from being allocated K1,570,600 to K2,117,600. I bemoan this figure because I know what it takes to have a gender-focal point in every place. The reason we are having so many challenges in Zambia today is because we have neglected 52 per cent of the population.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda: As long as we continue giving small notches to women’s programmes, we should not expect to have a fruitful nation that Zambia is supposed to be.

Madam Chairperson, on gender rights protection, the allocation has increased from K6,502,492 to K29,746,759. I am not an economist or an accountant, but just looking at this figure shows that we are now getting serious with the protection of gender rights.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, we have suffered enough. As I was coming here, I read a report of a man who has been inserting a cooking stick in a female’s “something”.

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: The woman has ended up in hospital and she has to be operated on because the baby has died. Such things can make you cry. They are happening here in our country.Not too long ago, Madam Chairperson, we had the issue of the thirteen abducted girls. As long as women’s rights are not given the priority, we will continue having such challenges. When I looked at the total budget, I saw that it only amounts to about 11 per cent of what Cabinet Office will get. Already, we do not have a ministry of our own. I am not bemoaning that. All I am saying is that why do we not allocate enough resources to Cabinet Office so that we can deal with some of the challenges which women are facing today?

Madam Chairperson, as my sister said, yes, indeed, we are suffering at the hands of the people whom we trust our love with. It is very sad that the menfolk have not been very fair to us. The rights of children fall under the gender department and they may fall somewhere under the youths. However, I was looking for the allocation for women. Maybe, it is in the gender department or in another department because I looked at the Vote for the Western Province and I assessed that of the Eastern Province and there is no provision for women. What is allocated there is for the youths and the children. As a nation, we need to take issues of women seriously. If we are just going to take their issues as “by the way”, we will have serious offices being given to us as tokens, such as the Office of the Vice-President, which will not come with anything when she retires.

Interruptions

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Chairperson, it is important that we start fighting for our rights on the Floor of the House. I know that it may not be good to speak about ourselves, but I am talking about the office.

The Chairperson: Order!

We are not allowed to debate ourselves, so, it was not good for you to talk about Her Honour the Vice-President who is seated comfortably listening to your debate. Can you withdraw that and phrase it nicely.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw that. I was talking about the office.

I am really sorry, Madam. You know that as Member of Parliament for Lundazi, I am always very objective.

Madam Chairperson, a little will go a long way. Let us increase from where we have started from. Women are more in this nation and we just have to make sure that we attach much resources to them.

Madam Chairperson, let me turn to my constituency where there are many women. You will find that most co-operatives are headed by men. Women need to be given information regarding empowerment programmes so that when they receive the resources from the co-operatives, they know how to use the money. Sometimes, what makes the women lag behind is the lack of information and I am talking about financial information. Financial literacy in rural areas is very low. Most of the time, the men are the ones who get these monies from empowerment programmes and women are left wallowing in poverty. In the end, if a woman is not empowered, unlike myself who knows what is wrong and what is right, she will not be able to defend her rights.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support this Vote, but let us do more next time.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Straight away, let me zero in on two issues that have been alluded to in the policy statement from Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, I want to zero in on the issue of freedom fighters. Last week or the other week, Zambia was celebrating its 58^th Independence and much was talked about, and we will keep talking about our freedom fighters. It amazes me that up to today, some institutions, and even streets, are named after our colonial masters, yet we are talking about our freedom fighters. When are we going to honour our freedom fighters? I believe these people can only be honoured while they are still living. Why should we have a name of a colonial master as a name of a road, yet we do not recognise and honour the people who were at the forefront in the Chachacha formula and were throwing stones, who are still living. I believe it is time Cabinet Office took inventory and honoured such people, including people like Hon. Musokotwane, though we are not allowed to debate ourselves. We can honour the hon. Minister and have Musokotwane Lane.

Interruptions

Mr J. Chibuye: We can honour Hon. Charles Milupi. These people are still living and fought …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Mr J. Chibuye: … for this independence and threw the stones. Why are we not honouring them? In Luanshya, there are freedom fighters who are still languishing. They do not even have a plot where they can build a house, but we call them freedom fighters. When they die, is when we will rush to –

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Chibuye!

Please, let us avoid mentioning names because that is now debating ourselves. You are bringing some people into the debate. Let us avoid naming people who are here. You can continue, Mr Chibuye.

Mr J. Chibuye: Much guided, Madam Chairperson. The point I am trying to drive is that there are enough freedom fighters who are still living with us today and we need to look at them and honour them. There are many freedom fighters even in my constituency who are languishing and do not even have where to sleep or what to eat tomorrow. We need to honour them while they are still alive. So, in debating this Vote, I wanted to talk about the issue of freedom fighters. Yes, there are some freedom fighters whom we have honoured like the late Kenneth Kaunda (KK) and the late Michael Sata and named new infrastructure after, but we still need to do more. Let us look around and take inventory of all the freedom fighters who are living today so that we can honour them whilst they are still living.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to zero in on the issue of pregnancies, which was alluded to in the policy statement. It is amazing and saddening at the same time. Last week, there was a screaming headline over this. At one of the workshops in Kitwe, it was revealed that close to over 1,200 teenage girls fell pregnant from January to September this year. This is a very big number and something needs to be done. The majority of these girls are fourteen to eighteen years old. What are we doing to our nation? We are destroying the future fruits. We are destroying the future leaders and something needs to be done and a deliberate policy put in place to ensure that whoever is involved in destroying these fruits is answerable.

Madam Chairperson, again, last week, there was another screaming headline that over 600 teenage girls underwent unsafe abortions. What are we doing as a nation? This might appear to be a very small number, but we are only talking about Kitwe. What about countrywide? This is something that should worry every one of us and I only hope that Cabinet will take this seriously to ensure that we safeguard and protect our children. I am a father of very small children and I am worried if we are going to allow such happenings to happen to our daughters.

 

Madam Chairperson, we may pretend that everything is well within the urban areas; If you go to the rural areas of this country, you will shed a tear. You will see a child carrying another child on her back. A child as young as fourteen years old is a mother. When did this child learn how to be a mother? When did this child learn how to take care of a house or a husband? This is very painful. Knowing that Cabinet Office is there, I only hope that it will take keen interest and undertake monitoring and evaluation in these areas to stop this. Otherwise, we will be burying our heads in the sand when things are not moving well.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of child pregnancies is a time bomb which we are sitting on. That is why thirteen girls can be taken by two boys. What is that? Two against eighteen. It is unheard of and it is uncalled for. So, we need to be serious with such issues because we are only interested in the lives of our children, who will take the mantle from us tomorrow to lead this nation to greater heights.

Madam Chairperson, I support this Vote for Cabinet Office. I only hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did very good home work to come up with this figure of K545,268,996 allocated to this Vote because I know it is taking care of so many branches that fall under Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to this Vote.

Madam Chairperson: We are going to have the last hon. Member to debate. Hon. Kang’ombe, you may proceed.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I am grateful for the opportunity to make a few comments on this very important Vote for Cabinet Office. Even as I make these comments, I want to borrow the words that have already been delivered by the previous speakers as mine. However, I want to place emphasis on one very important aspect, which is the issue pertaining to who must head Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, under the Office of the Secretary to Cabinet, as already indicated, by now we should have someone who must substantive and able to discharge their duties knowing very well that they are permanently employed on behalf of the people of Zambia. Last year, in October, the current Acting Secretary to Cabinet was appointed to act. It has been over a year since that appointment was made, and he is still acting. I am also aware that in Public Service, and by practice, when you act for a certain period of time, it means that your supervisor has either assessed your competences or feels that you should not be able to continue discharging your duties.

Madam Chairperson, I am not discussing any individual, but the office, and currently, that office still has an acting person. Therefore, it will be necessary that each of us places ourselves in the shoes of the person who is acting and see whether there is a need to continue acting in that position and effect the instructions that come from Government. This is because Cabinet Office is supposed to implement the instructions that come from the Cabinet. When the Cabinet meets on Monday, the hon. Ministers and His Excellency the President will come up with instruction that should go to Cabinet Office. Now, if you have someone acting for over a year, it raises very serious concerns.

Madam Chairperson, today, we are going to approve the money that has been requested; K545,268,996, but who is going to oversee this very huge expenditure? We definitely need to agree that the Government needs to immediately employ a very permanent officer in that position. If the current office bearer has risen to the occasion, I think it is important that he is confirmed, so that the duties that have been assigned to this person can be discharged accordingly. It will be necessary even as the Her Honour the Vice-President takes note of these very important observations, I know she may not be in a position to comment in detail, but I think the Government needs to respond to this challenge that we need a permanent person to start discharging the duties of the office of Secretary to Cabinet.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, I am happy that the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan Constituency has touched on the issue of freedom fighters. There will be a stage in our life time that we will no longer have freedom fighters because if we count from 1964 to where we are now, very soon, we will have no freedom fighters. What will remain are memories of people who fought for our independence. However, what legacy are we leaving or what appreciation are we extending to these men and women who secured our independence?

 

Madam Chairperson, I was looking at the allocation to freedom fighters. It is shocking that we only put K1,273,753. The amount that has been allocated is inadequate. I know in most cases when we debate the way I am debating, issues are just noted, but are not factoredin. When people are speaking on this Floor of the House, if something has to be factored in before approval, I think it is important that the Government makes a commitment.

Madam Chairperson, really K1,273,753 is not enough. We have 116 districts in Zambia, and if we ask each of these hon. Members of Parliament, for example, the hon. Member for Mufumbwe and the hon. Member for Pemba to give us the number of freedom fighters who have served this country, there will be a long list. I do not think K1,273,753 is adequate for us to do anything that will show that we are appreciative of the work our freedom fighters have been able to do.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, under Cabinet Office, we have an allocation of K500,000 which towards an institution called National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA).

Madam Chairperson, it is shocking that we are allocating K500,000 to an institution that is supposed to help us prepare civil servants for Public Service. In the old days, the reason the first Government came up with the model of NIPA was that when you graduate, whether it is from university or any institution and you are ready to work in Government, the old practice was that, first of all you have to go through NIPA. It had to prepare you for Public Service, explain to you the challenges of Public Service, and explain the thinking of Government and orient you on things that have to be done. I am sure those who are here and went through that programme will agree with me that NIPA was a model institution. However, to look at the Yellow Book today, and only find an allocation of K500,000, not even K1,000,000, is shocking.

Madam Chairperson, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that if it will not be possible for us to put money today, it will be necessary that we do a Supplementary Budget specifically for NIPA.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, this is a very important institution. The hon. Member for Roan is emphasising on the need for another Supplementary Budget for the freedom fighters. I think we have already laid these suggestions to Her Honour the Vice-President, but I am emphasising on the issue of NIPA. The institution is supposed to help us prepare public servants for Public Service. It is important that we push in more money, modernise infrastructure, modernise the training and we ensure that the curriculum is relevant to what has to be achieved.

Madam Chairperson, those are my few thoughts, and I hope that Her Honour the Vice-President has taken note.

I thank you.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I stand and assure the House that we are taking note of the concerns that are being raised on the Floor of the House. We may not be able to change figures right now, but the figures also come according to the performance of our own economy and, indeed, the priorities that come with it.

Madam Chairperson, maybe I should start with the last point before it escapes my mind. The National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA) is no longer a full Government institution. It is an autonomous institution. It is basically a private institution. That is why now, to go to NIPA, you need to pay. That is what it is. It is not like the way it was in the past. I just thought I should say that, so that the hon. Member thinking we should give a little more may be settled.

Madam Chairperson, I hear a lot has been said here particularly on the gender issues. I have heard both men and women hon. Members of this august House debate the issue of gender and they put a lot of importance to that.

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just referring to the hon. Members’ debate, particularly on gender issues. There have been a number of concerns raised, but it is important to note that hon. Members have also noted that the allocation to the Gender Division has completely improved. It is the intention of this Government to ensure that gender issues are looked at very seriously.

Madam Chairperson, I also said, in the policy statement that I read, that I think there were many indications of the kind of sub-programmes that will be carried out during this year under the Gender Division. There are a number of issues, including women empowerment. Hon. Members have to remember that we have said that even the free education that has been put in place, it also helps the girl child, particularly with the issues referred to by Mr Chibuye, where he talked of children getting pregnant. Being in school is one way that we keep children away from vices that they involve themselves in.

Madam Chairperson, we have also stated that there will be support to women’s livelihood programmes. We will also encourage women to participate in politics. That is what we can do. For us women who are here, we have to continue being the right role models for our children.

Yes, there was a debate on how evil, dangerous, divisive and so on and so forth some gender is. However, they are our partners. We plead with them and urge them to be accommodating to women because they cannot do without us. I agree with hon. Members that there is a lot of need to look at these gender issues, and this division will work really hard to do more.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of recruitment, the concern that came out was that there should be equity, if not equality, when recruiting people. There should be no gender biasness in the recruitment processes.

Madam Chairperson, I have heard encouragement on expediting appointments. This came out when debating the Vote on the office holder for Secretary to the Cabinet. I think that is what people were referring to. Indeed, the Government is working to see that the appointment or, indeed, the confirmation of the person in that office is expedited. We hear you.

Madam Chairperson, there were statements that decentralisation must be fully funded. We do realise that, and that is why you have seen, generally, that the funding to this office has also tremendously improved. It is because of issues like these. Just like I said in the other debate, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is very important and needs to be monitored through evaluations.

Madam, there were comments on the issue of former Presidents. It is important to take note that the figure may go down because we have lost so many of them. We only have one whom we must look after, but we do realise and agree that the families of the late former Presidents will continue to be looked after. I am sure hon. Members have seen that it is also catered for.

Madam Chairperson, I have a lot of interest in the former Vice-President because I will be former, also. I am current. So, maybe, I have not felt what the former feels. I will not speak about that. I declare interest on this particular issue.

Madam, there was a statement that Cabinet Office should not be used to pack people who have seemingly failed. I will use the words ‘seemingly failed’. We have heard that, but it should not be seen, again, in a political light. I think we have moved on. Let us see people function according to their qualifications or according to the work that they are trained for so that we have a professional Civil Service.

We all agree that this is the engine of the Government. I think it was pronounced, including in my own speech that Cabinet Office is the engine of the Government. Therefore, it cannot be neglected.

Madam Chairperson, there are so many functions that are carried out under this office, including looking after freedom fighters. They are being looked after. Like somebody observed, I think it was Mr Kang’ombe, that soon we will have no freedom fighters. Then, somebody asked how we are going to remember them. I am sure that they will be remembered, but there have been a lot of honouring of our former freedom fighters. We may have missed some. One hon. Member, I think it is Mr Munsanje, bemoaned the fact that they had submitted –

The Chairperson: Order, Your Honour the Vice-President!

Hon. Members, we are looking at Standing Order 204, entitled ‘Parliamentary Decorum and Etiquette’, and I will go straight to part (t) as follows:

“a member shall not talk to other members in a manner that disturbs the proceedings of the House.”

There are a lot of side talks. We can hardly hear what Her Honour the Vice-President is saying because of the loud side talks that are happening. It even further says:

“If it is unavoidable to consult one another during proceedings, a member shall talk in a very low voice;”

Hon. Members, that is what your Standing Orders say. We are not denying you freedom to talk, but the Standing Orders are saying “in a very low voice”. So, can we, please, observe that Standing Order so that we make progress and the people can be able to get what we are debating in this House.

Her Honour the Vice-President may continue.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I was just about to refer to one hon. Member, Mr Munsanje, who talked about having submitted names for honours and awards, but were left out, including the young man who rescued people and a headman. I think when you submit names, there are many other submissions, but all of them are taken note of. Believe you me, if they qualify at the right time, they will also be honoured when there is the space for that.

Madam Chairperson, I think Ms Nyirenda’s concerns about women were that we are not catering for the 52 per cent of our population, which is women, in so many ways. I can assure her that the Gender Division has not been relegated. It has actually been uplifted by having it put under the Office of the President.

Madam Chairperson, there were a number of other issues, but I think that is all I can say for now.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on –

Madam Chairperson: Your voice is too faint.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, am I clear now? May I have clarification on page 82, Table 1, Item 21…

Madam Chairperson: Which page are you at?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification onpage 82, Table:1, Item No. 21 – Personal Emoluments –. K102,954,568. In 2022, there was K42,501,498.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Table: 1, Item No. 22 – Goods and Services – K400,338,510. In 2022, there was K179,837,426. 

Madam Chairperson, why have these allocations increased?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I am trying to find the page.

Madam Chairperson: It is page 82, Table 1 ...

Mr Mutelomoved closer to the Vice-President with his Yellow Book.

Madam Chairperson: Item Nos. 21 and 22.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Table 1, Personal Emoluments, the increase is 142 per cent, a variation of K60,453, 070. This provision is meant for salaries and emoluments. The increase is attributed to, one, improvement in the salaries for members of staff earlier in the year, and the other reason is, structural changes owing to the expanded mandate of Cabinet Office. Cabinet Office has some grant-aided institutions such as the National School of Government and Public-Private Dialogue Forum (PPDF). All these will fall in the area of personnel emoluments.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3418 – State and Presidential Affairs – K344,178,779. In 2022, K143,208,001 was allocated. Why such an increment?

Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3419 – Remuneration Management – Nil.  In 2022, there was K5,214,923. May Her Honour the Vice-President indicate to us where this allocation been moved to? Has it been put under another sub-programme?

Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, assist Her Honour the Vice-President, not Mutelo. Mutelo is misleading Her Honour.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: May Her Honour the Vice-President also take into account the second part of the question that was raised by Rev. Katuta, why the amount for goods and services has gone up.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, maybe, we start with Rev. Katuta’s concern as to why the figure on goods and services has gone up. The increase is due to the following two reasons: The increase is for enhanced local and international engagements for the Head of State, and provision for the GEL Project and women empowerment.

Was the other question on State and Presidential Affairs?

Madam Chairperson: Yes.

The Vice-President: What sub-programme number is it?

Madam Chairperson: It is Table: 2, Programmes 3418 and 3419.

The Vice-President: What was the question about on Programmes3418 and 3419?

Mr Mutelo: The removal of this figure under Programme 3419.

The Vice-President: Okay! There is a removal of the amount from the State Functions. Is that what you asked, Hon. Mushanga? How was the question?

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, I can repeat the question.

The Vice-President: Aha! Thank you.

Madam Chairperson: I think you do not need to explain the question hon. Member because your questions were on Programmes 3418 and 3419.

Mr Mushanga: Yes.

Madam Chairperson: You wanted to find out why on State and Presidential Affairs, the amount for last year was K143,208,001 and in 2023, it has increased to K344,178,779. You also wanted to know why on Programme 3419, in 2022, there was allocation and in 2023, there is nothing. You further wanted to know where this allocation has been moved to.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, the first question is why there is an increase from K143,208,001 to K344,178,779 on State and Presidential Affairs. The increase is attributed to the increased level of local and international engagements. This is what I said under Programme 3418. The other question is on remuneration which is under a different programme. Is it not research?

Madam Chairperson: No, it is actually on page 83, Table: 2.

The Vice-President: There is nothing. This is a variance not that there is nothing.

Where I am reading, there is a variance. The same figures for last year are reflecting. 

Let him ask again because I am not seeing what he is talking about.

Madam Chairperson: Okay, Mr Mushanga, can you help Her Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-programme 3418 – State and Presidential Affairs –K344,178,779. In 2021 and 2022, there was an allocation for this programme and it actually reduced this year, which is almost ending. However, in 2023, there is an increment of almost more than 100 per cent. So, the question is: Why that increase?

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Sub-programme 3419 – Remuneration Management – Nil. In 2021 and 2022, there were allocations for this programme, but in 2023, there is no allocation. Has it been moved to another activity or what?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Sub-programme 3418 – State and Presidential Affairs –K344,178,779, I think the hon. Member was almost giving the answer, that this programme has been moved to the Emoluments Commission. In view of the creation of the commission has rendered the other activity non-existent.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mutelointerjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Hon. Mutelo, these are policy matters. The people to assist Her Honour the Vice-President are there, …

The Chairperson: Mr Kampyongo, just ask your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3408, Sub-programme 8002 – Civil Service Travel – Nil. The last time this Sub-programme was allocated funds was in 2021. In 2022, there was nothing and, in 2023, there is nothing. The question is: Where is this expenditure being catered for because we know that civil servants are still travelling.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Sub-programme 8003 – Decentralisation Implementation – K10,420,287. This is a very key programme. Last year, this budget line had an approved amount of K9,062,412. This year, the estimated allocation is K10,420,287. What sort of programmes are we going to achieve with this meagre increment?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Sub-programme 8002 – Civil Service Travel – Nil has been moved to management and support services, which are under a grant aided institution. I hope that answers the question. So, Sub-programme 8002 – Civil Service Travel has been moved to management and support services.

Madam, for Sub-programme 8003 – Decentralisation Implementation – K10,420,287, there is an increase of K1,357,875, that is 15 per cent increase. The increase is attributed to the commencement of devolving the local authorities exclusive functions currently performed by the central Government or ministries. Capacity building will be intensified to ensure effective integration of functions and human resource.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-programme 22 – Goods and Services – K400,338,510 under economic classification. The value of goods and services in 2022 was pegged at K179,837,426. This value has jumped from K179,837,426 to K400,338,510, and this jump represents an increment of 123 per cent. What are these incremental goods and services which will be consumed in the year 2023 as has been this year, 2022?

The Chairperson: That is the same question that was asked by Ms Katuta.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Sub-programme 22 – Goods and Services – K400,338,510, on goods and services under economic classification, I hope I will answer the question because the question may mean something else, but I will read what is here. The provision is meant to cater for the general operations for Cabinet Office, which we know, as well as execution. However, the increase is as a result of enhanced local and international engagement for the Head of State and the provision of the Girls Education and Women’s Empowerment and Livelihoods (GEWEL) Project.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3466, Sub-Programme: 009 – Women Empowerment – K15, 000,000. However, when we look at 2021 and 2022, there was nothing that was provided for this sub-programme (then activity). So, what programmes will be happening under this K15,000,000, which were not there in 2021 as well as 2022?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, is the question coming from the programme under Women Empowerment?

Mr Mukosa: Yes, Madam.

The Vice-President: You said in 2022, there was nothing, but now we have K15 million?

Mr Mukosa: Yes.

The Vice-President: Yes, this is a new programme meant to facilitate the empowerment of vulnerable women clubs and co-operatives.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 01 – (Office of the President –State House – K118, 604,941)

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the 2023 estimates of recurrent expenditure for Vote 01/01 – Office of the President – State House, whose mandate is as follows:

“To Provide overall governance of the people of Zambia and ensuring that the sovereignty and integrity of the nation is upheld for the sole purpose of protecting and safeguarding the interests of the country, its citizens and residents. The mandate of the Presidency of the Republic of Zambia is derived from Article 91 of the Constitution of Zambia, as amended by the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016.”

Madam Chairperson, State House is a key Government institution, which is also the seat of the Presidency of the Republic of Zambia.

As the apex institution of the Government, State House plays an important role in supporting the Presidency in the provision of national guidance and overall policy direction of the country.

Madam Chairperson, the role of State House has been developed in line with the mission statement outlined below:

Mission Statement

“To deliver inspirational and visionary leadership to the nation and promote inclusive governance in order to achieve a better life for all Zambians’’.

Goal Statement

In support of the Mission Statement, the institution’s goal statement is as follows:

To achieve efficient and effective advisory and support services for enhanced execution of executive functions by His Excellency, the President.”

Overview of 2022 Operations

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, State House was allocated K78,955,693.00, and recorded a number of successes, which include the following:

1. Advisory Services

1. provided leadership in engagement with international bodies including the International Monetary Fund (IMF) which led to the approval of the extended credit facility for the next three years;
2. provided leadership in the formulation and implementation of the policy on free education;
3.  provided leadership in the employment of education and health staff;
4. provided guidance on enhanced utilisation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF);
5. in conjunction with Cabinet Office and other stakeholders, established the Public Private Dialogue Forum (PPDF);
6. provided leadership in line with the Local Government Act to stop the management of markets and bus stations by political party cadres; and
7. the President assented to twenty-two Bills including the Children's Code Bill, which consolidates the law relating to children and provides for parental responsibility, custody and guardianship.

1. Human Resources and Administration

1. implemented the revision of the State House staff structure;
2. maintenance of State House buildings including the renovation of Kabelenga in Ndola and Kitwe Presidential Guest Houses, while others such as Nkwazi House, Ndola Golf Course and Mongu Presidential Guest Houses are still work in progress; and
3. capacity building of State House staff in short and long-term programmes so that they can efficiently and effectively perform their roles.

Challenges

The continuing presence of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic albeit at a reducing scale, had some adverse impact on the implementation of the institutional mandate.

2023 Budget Estimates

Madam Chairperson, State House functions are performed through three key programmes, namely:

1. Presidential Advisory Services, which comprises eight distinct (sub) programmes with the critical role of providing professional and technical backstopping to His Excellency, the President. The programme summary estimate is at K16,975,247. The following are the sub programmes:

1. legal advisory services;
2. political advisory services;
3. economic advisory services;
4. communication and media services;
5. project implementation monitoring and national security advisory services;
6. public health advisory services;
7. finance and investments advisory services; and
8. policy compliance advisory services

1. Presidential Affairs and Initiatives, responsible for the provision of catering and housekeeping services for the President, the First Family and the institution and upholding Presidential initiatives. The program summary estimate is at K19,207,214. The two sub-programs are:

1. diplomatic and hospitality services; and
2. presidential initiatives.

1. Management and Support Services, which undertakes the role of efficient and effective management of staff, provision of logistical and material support services in order to facilitate the smooth operations of the institution. The program summary estimate is at K82,422,480. The sub programmes are the following:

1. executive office management;
2. human resources and administration;
3.  financial management-accounting;
4. financial management-internal audit;
5. procurement and supplies management;
6. landscaping and gardening services;
7. transport management; and
8. records management.

Madam, in summary, the State House operational budget estimates for 2023 amounts to K118, 604,941.00.

Madam Chairperson, the Budget Estimates before this august House will enable State House to facilitate efficient and effective operations as well as address personal emoluments and outstanding Bills.

Madam Chairperson, State House continues to aspire for excellence in its quest to provide quality services. In this regard, I wish to appeal to hon. Members to support the Estimates of Expenditure for State House, as presented.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this very important Vote dealing with expenditure for the President. I stand here to support this expenditure for one thing and nothing else.

Madam Chairperson, we are talking about State House. We were told, here, that State House is in a deplorable state and not fit to be occupied by human beings. Therefore, as we support this Budget and this expenditure, I would love the Government to take the responsibility to rehabilitate it. We talking about State House being in a deplorable state and unable to be occupied by any President.

Madam Chairperson, I am not saying that the current President should move into this State House once it is rehabilitated. At the moment, we have closed that chapter.

Laughter

Mr Chala: The President is comfortable with where he is coming from. However, we need to understand that power is temporary. So, there will be an eighth President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: This eighth President must find State House in good condition because he/she may not come from Lusaka or have a House in Lusaka. He/she may come from Shangombo, Mufumbwe or my village, Kanshanda, in Chipili.

Rev Katuta: Or from Chienge!

Mr Chala: Chienge or Kaumbwe. So, where is he going to be staying?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: What we want, as we support this very important institution, is that the Executive looks into this problem and sorts it out. I am expecting Her Honour the Vice-President to come and make a statement here that it has now been done.

Hon. Member: And he is moving to State House.

Mr Chala: That is what I am expecting by supporting this very important expenditure for this institution.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: Madam Chairperson, it is very important that when we are here, we do something that is beneficial for everyone. Today, we are what we are. Tomorrow, somebody must come and say thank you for doing what you have done. You have rehabilitated State House.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: Madam, my support of this expenditure is about the rehabilitation of State House so that it is ready for the eighth President of the Republic of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

Hon. Government Members: Twala kupangila!

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the voice of Chienge an opportunity to debate this very important statement given by Her Honour the Vice-President regarding Vote 01 – State House.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member who has just spoken has taken some of my points. When we came to this House, we were told that the Head of State could not move to State House because of the condition it is in. Now we are going into the third year.

Madam Chairperson, my firm belief is that for us Zambians, that house is the house of the nation. I wonder where these renovations are being done. Are they being done at Community House? We may have another President who may need to be at State House. That is why we need to do the renovations.

What happens with the monies that the Government has been using to renovate or put up all the security systems at Community House because afterwards, it become a private house? I would like to find out who is doing the renovations and whether it is going to be Government property afterwards since the money is coming from the Government.

Madam, on the renovation of Community House, everything that has been done has been at the cost of the Treasury. I would like to find out more about these renovations that have been mentioned in the statement. Money has been spent on Community House and the other House in Ndola. I would like to know if the Head of State occupies that house when he is working in Ndola. What I know is that no one lives in that house. So, why are we renovating these houses?

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Hamwaata: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65. Is the hon. Member in order to insinuate that Community House is being rehabilitated using public funds without laying evidence on the Table?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: I do not have an answer to that. I reserve this ruling, so that we investigate the matter further and come back to this House with the correct information.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to support the proposal by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to allocate K119 million to State House.

Madam, I join my two hon. Colleagues in offering this support. In doing so, I would like to consider what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has put on page 6 of the Yellow Book, Programme 3425 – Presidential Advisory Services.

 

Madam Chairperson, the allocation for Presidential Advisory Services is increasing next year from the current K11,433,181 to K16,975,247. This is where I would like to focus the little attention that I have on this Vote. I can see that the President will have economic advisory services.

Madam, State House should start supporting the President properly. The economic advisory must ensure that the President directs the economy of this country so as to reduce the cost of living.

Madam Chairperson, the economic advisory under Presidential Advisory Services must ensure that Zambia is not ranked as the worst country in terms of the fuel cost, which is the case now in the Southern Africa.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, this group of people advising the President economically, should ensure that the people of Zambia begin to afford food and services. I am saying so with good intentions because I am a leader.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: I know that the people of Zambia are suffering. Some hon. Colleagues are saying “Question” particularly, from the United Party for National Development (UPND) because they think that people are not suffering. This is why they are saying “Question” when I acknowledge the suffering of the people. Let me urge my colleagues, the advisors to the President, to advise him so that he becomes aware of the pain that the people whose houses were demolished in Chingola are going through.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kafwaya: They should advise the President of the pain that the people whose mobile money booths were destroyed are going through so that he takes appropriate action. Appropriate action might just be to assist those people to reconstruct their homes or assist those people to rebuild their Airtel and MTN money booths, so that they can be re-employed.

Madam Chairperson, under economic advisory, there is pain. I can see here that there is also political advisory. Just yesterday, we spent time talking about the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). When we discussed the ECZ, there were things which came out. It is these same friends of ours who advised the President to go and campaign in Kabushi when they knew there were people who had resigned from the election.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I actually do not understand why people are questioning things which are clear. They are talking about me having been voted out. I can assure them that the Patriotic Front (PF) was voted out because President Lungu lost elections, but we have a role to assist the current President to perform for the people of Zambia. Let me be clear. I have a small mandate because I was only elected in Lunte. It is a very small mandate, but by virtue of that mandate, Madam Chairperson, you provided this platform for me to speak for the people of Lunte as well as the people of Zambia. I live among them and I feel their pain. They cannot say that it was proper advice to have the President keep campaigning in Kabushi and Kwacha when participants had already resigned from the election.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue surrounding political advice to the President, everyone recalls what happened in Kabwata where there was an audio –

Interruptions

Mr Munsanje: On a point order, Madam Speaker.

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Kafwaya!

There is a point of order by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Mr Mwiimbu: With your indulgence, Madam Chairperson, I am not raising a point of order. I just want to indicate that I want to debate.

The Chairperson: Okay. Sorry about that. Where is the point of order coming from?

Mr Munsanje: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 on relevance of debate or contribution. The hon. Member who was on the Floor went off track talking a lot of irrelevancies with lack of facts.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House and the nation at large, on the President campaigning in Kabushi, when there was a very clear court decision that resulted in that development? The hon. Member debating is trying to mislead the House. Is he in order?

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, from what I am seeing now, we had Vote 05, for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) yesterday, which covered every aspect of the elections. However, we are finding ourselves bringing Vote 05 into the Vote for State House. Can we please stick to the Vote for State House, keeping in mind that yesterday, we exhausted the Vote for ECZ. The way I am looking at this issue, it will keep coming. Even when we go to other Votes, we will still be talking about the elections. I am sure the people out there have got the message under Vote 05 but we keep going back to the same.

In fact, I advised Mr Munsanje when he wanted to bring the issue of by-elections to leave that aspect because it was 100 per cent covered yesterday. So, to avoid wasting more time so that we move forward, let us stick to Vote 01 – State House.

You can proceed.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, the political advisor advises the President on political matters. The political advisor ensures that the President’s political activities are undertaken in a manner that can easily be approved by onlookers like myself. I am happy that the allocation for next year has been increased. It is my sincere hope that the President will get proper political advice so that he is not mentioned in audios or sound bites which insinuate that it is the people at the ECZ or the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security who are causing a problem otherwise, they could have dealt with Harry Kalaba’s party. I am talking about giving advice to the President. I am not taking about Kabushi. I am talking about what even His Excellency himself, made reference to when he was interviewed at the airport.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me move on to the media because there are three levels as I can see in the book. In this vein, I would like to say that I wish His Excellency the President will get proper media advice from the media colleagues whose money has nearly doubled. The President promised that he was going to be meeting the media on a regular basis, but it appears now that the only way to chance him is at the airport and for many of us, it has become a problem.

Madam Chairperson, I support the allocation.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: We will get somebody from the right to debate.

Mr Mulunda may take the Floor.

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Thank you so much, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, the money that is appropriated to State House (Plot One) is meant to ensure that every department in every ministry is functioning well. We cannot afford to politicise the budget for State House and listen to people who are today saying that they are good advisors, when they failed yesterday. People changed the Government because they were suffering and the hon. Member cannot say that people are now suffering. If they were not suffering during the time of those people who can advise, wasting State House funds –

Mr Kafwayarose with the intention of leavingthe Assembly Chamber.

Mr Kangombe: Where are you going?

Mr Mulunda: I wish he could sit down, but he is a losing candidate.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Mulunda, can you, please, concentrate on your debate.

Mr Mulunda: Madam Chairperson, we are dealing with State House and its budget has been increased because the funds are being spent prudently. That prudence is what has even caused the increase because of the people who are going to –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is based on Standing Order No. 58.

Madam Chairperson, as your Member in this House, I have the privilege of representing the people of Zambia and in particular, the people of Lunte. Even though the Patriotic Front (PF) party lost elections, I am still your Member, Madam, and the PF is not the first party to lose elections. Most hon. Members that side have experienced losing elections. Should that now ensure that I must not represent the people of Zambia, for my hon. Colleague to rise against my debate in this fashion?

Madam Chairperson, I need your protection by seeking your serious ruling on the debate being tendered by my hon. Colleague.

The Chairperson: Thank you so much for that point of order. I think you heard me, as you were almost walking out of the Chamber, guiding Mr Mulunda to stick to the debate, which he did. So, following that guide, I am sure it covered your issue because he was guided based on what he had mentioned. I advised him to not go that way, but to stick to the debate. So, Mr Mulunda was already guided.

 

Mr Mulunda, you can continue with that guide.

Mr Mulunda: Madam Chairperson, I am well guided.

Madam Chairperson, one of the attributes of a Member of Parliament is being honourable. When people chose us as their representatives, they want us to remain honourable. We can only remain honourable when we listen to what our hon. Colleagues are saying. When an hon. Member is debating, I must sit down and listen. Equally, when I am debating, he must sit down and listen to the debate I am bringing up. So, as an hon. Member, I will continue.

Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the increase in the budgetary allocation to State House will be used prudently, like I have said. This is because what is going to be coming out of State House is something that will improve the lives of the people. We know that some people are now seemingly suffering, as is being preached by some people. The question we should be asking ourselves is: Why are people suffering? The hon. Member should ask himself why they lost power and why people are suffering today. It is emanating from their bad leadership and abuse of public funds which will not happen during our tenure of office.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, can we, please, stick to Vote 01, the Vote for State House.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing me to comment on the budget estimates for Vote 01.

Madam Chairperson, I will start by commending the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for ensuring that the mandate for Vote 01 is properly stated and I know this was a bone of contention when we were considering the budget estimates for this fiscal year. However, I am happy to note that the authority of this very important office is properly cited. For avoidance of doubt, I will quote the last part of the mandate which states as follows:

“The mandate of the Presidency of the Republic of Zambia is derived from Article 91 of the Constitution of Zambia as amended by the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016.”

Madam Chairperson, this is what we were seeking last year. The mandate of this office is to ensure that the sovereignty of this Republic and the interests of each and every citizen are managed. So, when we come here, as representatives of the people, the first thing we do is swear and bear true allegiance to this very important office. So, all of us have a collective responsibility insofar as protecting this office is concerned.

Madam Chairperson, I acknowledge Her Honour the Vice-President’s update that State House is under renovations, but in my view, the works have delayed. If the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development was here, he would be urged to expediate the works. As we appropriate funds for State House, it must be noted that State House is the office and residence of the President. It is not by choice that the President who is elected by the Republic of Zambia, should choose where to stay.

Madam Chairperson, State House is a gazetted and designated place where any sitting President must reside because his work does not only end in the office. The work is extended even to the residence, where the President stays, meaning, as he is working, the work that is done in the office and at the residence is considered the same because that place is gazetted as such. We have seen in other jurisdictions where former Presidents are being persuaded in their private residences to look for state materials. So, all the state material that is assigned to the President must be within that premise. Therefore, if it is the Government’s desire to keep the Head of State at his residence throughout his tenure, I totally – maybe, my hon. Colleagues might not understand the implications, but by requirement, world over, not only here, the President must be at a designated residence. Therefore, we need to have a gazette.

Madam Chairperson, the Government must come up with an official gazette because even as we appropriate funds, we have to make the Head of State comfortable. We have to ensure that wherever he is staying, all the state machinery is provided; that is the requirement. So, we cannot start debating whether or not we should spend on the President’s residence or where he is staying now because that is a matter of public interest and a matter of interest to us, whose responsibility is it to appropriate resources and to take care of the welfare of the President and the Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, I am happy that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will debate on this matter because he has the responsibility to look after these critical constitutional office bearers. The first property of the State is the Presidency and the second one is the Vice-President, and that is the responsibility of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the dwelling places of these two important citizens are designated by the State everywhere. Let me give an example of the British, whose governance structures we inherited. Even the Prime Minister who served for a short time of forty-four days, moved into the official residence, Downing Street No. 10, up to the time she left office.

Madam Chairperson, this is,therefore,not a matter of choice and I must put it very clear to all of us here. We are law makers and this we must all understand. It is not a matter of choice. In this regard, it is important that the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development expedites the works in question.

Madam Chairperson, on the Copperbelt, for example, the facilities that are designated for the Head of State are being renovated. It is not any other hotel that is being renovated. You are renovating state facilities which are designated for the Head of State when he is visiting those areas. In all the provinces, it is designed that there must be a facility designated for the Head of State and the Vice-President. So, there are matters that we should not even politicise and trivialise because they are very critical.

Madam Chairperson, as we appropriate these resources, we should do not even stress you to make a ruling on whether, indeed, some money is being spent on the residence where the President is staying or not because these matters are provided for. In this regard, my plea is to Her Honour the Vice-President, who is the Leader of Government Business in the House, and my hon. Colleague who is in charge of internal security, whose prime function is to preserve and protect these important offices.

Madam Chairperson, we would like the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to expedite these works, so that His Excellency the President can then move to the designated and gazetted government facility. It is not a matter of choice, as I said.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will come in before Her Honour the Vice-President winds up debate.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to State House. As I debate, I would like to make a few rebuttals.

Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, it is malicious and vexatious to impute that Community House, the private residence of the President, is being renovated using state funds. That is very malicious and it should not be stated on the Floor of this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: All of us know that Community House, the private residence of President Hakainde Hichilema, is in a better condition than the current State House and it does not need any renovation, whatsoever.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the provisions that are being provided for are not for renovating Nkwazi House, which is purported to be the official residence of the President. Currently, it is in a state that cannot allow a person of the repute of the current President of Zambia to reside in.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, there is need to rehabilitate that house to the standard that befits the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Secondly, Madam Chairperson, there is no law in this country that compels the President to reside in State House. Further, State House is an office of the Republic of Zambia. Nkwazi House is not State House. It is different from State House. So, you cannot force President Hakainde Hichilema to go and stay in the office because that is what State House is. Nkwazi House is a different residence all together.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I am alarmed to hear that when the Patriotic Front (PF) was in power, our hon. Colleagues were able to know the decisions of the courts before the courts pronounced them. We are now being told that the PF used to sit together with the Judiciary to know the decisions of court. How can you –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we are responding. How can we be expected to know the decisions of court before the judgment is pronounced if we do not sit with the judges? We are just like any other residents and citizens of this country who should not know the decisions of court until they are pronounced.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, there is a point of order. Mr Kampyongo, what is your point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the subject on the Floor is Vote 01 – State House, and we expect that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security should actually be telling the nation facts. First of all, he says State House is only an office when all the former six Presidents have lived in that facility...

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: ...and he knows that the movements of the Head of State, which he is supposed to manage himself, are properly regulated so that it is not every day that the President is shuttling back and forth.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister now brings in very serious allegations, which are not even pronounced by Her Honour the Vice-President. I did not hear anyone here debating or saying they used to sit with judges to know when the judgments were going to be made.

Hon. UPND Members: Kafwaya!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this point of order is pursuant to Standing Order 65, which states that whatever we speak here must be factual and verifiable. I did not hear any hon. Member this side of the House talk about sitting with judges and knowing how the judgments were going to be passed.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to take that route in his debate on behalf of the Government, when he is supposed to focus on Vote 01, which we have debated here without veering off?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I think this is an issue that I have been talking about and I have been urging you, hon. Members to the Vote under discussion. Let us avoid issues that are not even supposed to be connected to this Vote because that will take us miles away from this budget.

I know Mr Kafwaya tried to bring this and that issue in, but I guided him that please do not go that way because it will bring out a lot of issues. So, hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, I know there were issues that were almost raised by Mr Kafwaya, but can we please maybe, stick to the budget, that is Vote 01 – State House.

You may proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. I am aware that Hon. Kafwaya was saying that the President should have known the judgment of court before proceeding to Kabushi and I am making a rebuttal and a response on behalf of the Government. Therefore, I am saying that this Government would not know the judgments of court until they are pronounced, hence my implying that our hon. Colleagues should have known what was happening that particular time. I now proceed to the other issue.

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, our hon. Colleagues made imputations on the character –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

Is it on the same issue?

Mr Mukosawas not audible.

The Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, you have guided the hon. Minister, a very senior Member of this hon. House. It is very important, when you look at Standing Order 65, that what we discuss is factual and verifiable. Madam, you guided. Hon. Kafwaya said the advisors should have advised, and that was according to his opinion. According to him, the President should have been advised that there an issue in the courts and that he needed to wait until judgement was passed before he could travel. He did not say that the President should have known. That is not what Hon. Kafwaya said. So, is the hon. Member who is debating, our senior hon. Member of Parliament here, in order to misrepresent what Hon. Kafwaya said and mislead this House and the nation and bring the name of the Judiciary into disrepute?

The Chairperson: Mr Mukosa, the issue that we are talking about is the one on which I had guided Mr Kafwaya that he did not have go that way. Now you are bringing it back, clarifying it even further. You are inviting the hon. Minister again, to come and respond. So, this issue will continue if we do not stop, like I guided. So, can we bury that issue? In fact, I heard the hon. Minister say, ‘I am now moving on to another segment.’ So, can I please allow the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to continue so that we allow Her Honour the Vice-President to wind up debate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that imputations were made on the character of the advisors to the President, inparticular, their competences regarding the advice they give to the President.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to state without any fear of contradiction that the advice officers at State House give is very professional and very profound in the state of things.

Madam Speaker, advisers to the President advised the President that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) must be increased so as to alleviate poverty in this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Advisors to the President have advised professionally to the extent that the dollar and the economy are stable and inflation has reduced to a single digit. This is all because of the advice of officers at State House.

Mr Simumba: Fuel!

Mr Mwiimbu: Officers at State House, Madam Chairperson, have professionally advised the President to the extent that inflation is at a single digit. It is a fact.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Advisors have advised the President that it is not prudent to use a private jet to tour other countries. They have advised the President that he should use commercial transport in order to serve money. That is prudence.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The advisors have advised the President that he should not carry huge delegations as it used to be in the past where more than a hundred persons used to accompany the former President. That is prudence.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The advisors to the president have advised that the President must ensure that he maintains a lean Government. That is prudence.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The advisors to the President, Madam Chairperson, have advised that every constituency in this country should receive a police vehicle.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is prudence.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The advisors have advised that all constituencies must receive a utility vehicle. That is prudence. I never heard of any President in the immediate past, who had been as prudent in the management of this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is the result of the officials who are at State House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We have never heard of a situation where advisors to the President would go to a club and start beating patrons.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It has never been heard of and it will never happen in the reign of President Hakainde Hichilema because he believes in professionalism, prudence, dignity and the rule of law. It is because of the advisors at State House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the President has directed that there will be no cadreism …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: …in bus stations and markets, as it used to be. That is prudence. That is why we have that President in State House.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members that have debated. This has been fiercely debated with the least number of debaters since we came this afternoon.

Madam Chairperson, what I see has come out very strongly is the renovation of the State House. I will just pick one statement. On the renovation, I think what I get is that it has taken a bit long. We should expedite the completion of the rehabilitation of State House so that it is conducive for the President to reside in. We hear you.

Madam Chairperson, I heard something to the effect that since Community House is being renovated, what happens when the President is no longer in office? I just want to state that I am not aware of Community House using public resources for renovation. For any works that are going on on that private property, private resources are being used. Renovations where public resources are being used are at State House and other guest houses that I mentioned in the statement that I gave.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of advisory services, I think my hon. Colleague has stipulated in his own way, but listening to the statement that I gave, I stated clearly what these advisory members do and the work that has resulted out of the advice that is given.

I stated a number of points and gave out eight results that come out of the advisory services. I am sure they are recorded because I did mention them. The issues are as the hon. Minister may have referred to.

For the statement, we started with: “Because of these advisory services, we have been able to get the extended credit facility. It is economic advice that brought about such. We have formulated and implemented policy on free education. It comes from advisory services. That argument came out like advisory services were misleading. There are eight of them. I do not want to go through them because they were very well stated in the statement.

Madam Chairperson, sometimes, let us not over politicise issues. The issue of the demolished houses in Chingola should not be brought even under this budget. Let us, all of us, abhor illegality. It is not development if people are just going to go anywhere and start constructing and we do not care. In fact, if there is pain in the people whose houses were demolished, that pain must be attributed to the people who allowed them to construct on land that was not designated for that purpose.

 

What we want this Government to do is to be orderly. Truly, the people who suffer are the people who construct and yet there is a Government in place which should ensure that people live within the law.

So, we should not encourage illegality. The pain may be there, but it was the illegal activity that was allowed that has made the people to suffer in the way they have suffered. I believe that goes for booth owners. That, also, should not be allowed.

Madam Chairperson, so much has been talked about the campaigns in Kabushi Constituency and Kwacha Constituency. I will repeat what I said before. The President was in Kabushi and Kwacha legally. He did not breach any constitutional provision or any piece of legislation. He went there as an ordinary individual. He is, indeed, the Head of State and also a leader of a political party. He went there to campaign and he was within his right. When there was a stay, the President moved away from there. With all those counter stays that were in the courts of law, he stayed away until again, there was guidance to go ahead with the campaigns, that is when he went on the ground. The President and this Government believe in the rule of law. We will respect what comes out of the courts of law. That is what the President did. I agree that we should not politicise State House because it is for all of us. It is not a State House for a political party. So, let us continue supporting it.

Madam Chairperson, indeed, we have seen that there is an increase in almost everything and this is showing how the economy is performing. We should appreciate because this is going to be distributed to many budgets for many purposes and functions of all the other ministries and spending agencies. This will allow people to function and bring more development to the country. State House is one such institution where money has been appropriated or at least, proposed properly.

Madam Chairperson, the mandate is clearly stated this year and I appreciate it, unlike in 2021 and 2022. In both years, there was something wrong in the citation, particularly of the constitutional provision. However, this Government learns quickly and we have done the right citation of the constitutional provision from which State House draws its mandate. So, basically, we are saying that we hear the importance of this debate. We hear negatives and positives of the debate, but we will get that which is good for the country. State House should be supported because we can see the result of the things that are coming out of it.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 01 – (State House – Office of the President – K118,604,941)

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 2, Table:1, Item No. 21, – Economic Classification –Personal Emoluments – K46,075,329. This programme has been given an allocation which represents an increase of over 100 per cent from the K18,837,497 which was allocated last year. What has necessitated this increase, considering that Zambia’s inflation rate has gone down and we do not expect prices for goods and services to go up?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, the increase is due to the increase in the salaries as a result of the newly recreated and expanded units.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 4, Programme 3499, Sub-programme 002 – Executive Office Management – K26,529,372 and Sub-programme 012 – Transport Management – K30,322,539. What has necessitated those increments? In 2022, the year that is almost finishing, K14,405,902 was allocated to Sub-programme 002, but what has been proposed is K26,529,372. For Sub-programme 012, K19,725,873 was allocated to this programme in 2022 and what is being proposed to be spent in 2023 is K30,322,539.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, the increased allocation to Programme 3499, Sub-programme 002 – Executive Office Management – K26,529,372 is due to the increased management support to the newly created and expanded units.

Madam Chairperson, the allocation for Sub-programme 012 –Transport Management – K30,322,539 has also increased by 55 per cent to cater for transport needs of the newly created and expanded units.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – State House – K159,972,085).

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2023 budget estimates for Vote 02 – Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is established under Article 110 (1) and Article 112 of the Republican Constitution, which includes functions assigned to the Vice-President by the President and performance of the Executive functions during periods specified in the Constitution. The statutory functions of the Office of the Vice-President are derived from Government Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021 as follows:

1. disaster management and mitigation;
2. elections;
3. honours and awards;
4. national values, principles and ethics;
5. national guidance;
6. parliamentary business; and
7. resettlement.

Mission Statement

Madam Chairperson, the mission statement for the Office of the Vice-President is as follows:

“To provide support services to the Presidency, facilitate the effective conduct of Government Business in Parliament, implement resettlement and disaster risk management programmes in order to enhance good governance, and empowerment of vulnerable households.”

Madam Chairperson, in addition, my office has the responsibility of co-ordinating the multi-sectoral response to food and nutrition.

Overview of the 2022 Budget Performance

Madam Chairperson, my office was allocated a total of K89,405,751 –

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1842 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 4^thNovember, 2022.

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