Tuesday, 1^st November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES – MEMBERSHIP

Madam Speaker: I wish to inform the House that, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 166 (5), some changes have been made on the composition of Parliamentary Committees as follows:

GENERAL PURPOSES COMMITTEES

Committee on Delegated Legislation

Mr Charles Abel Mulenga, MP, to fill up the vacancy on the Committee

Committee on National Guidance and Gender Matters

Mr Bernard Kanengo, MP, to fill up the vacancy on the Committee

Hon. Members, I was away on leave and I bring greetings from the good people of the Western Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I have specific messages for individual hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers and I will deliver them. The hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment and Hon. Menyani Zulu, you have an invitation to visit His Majesty the Litunga to go and share with him the issues on climate change. Please, get in touch with him so that you can arrange and see him. Maybe, you can carry the hon. Member for Luena with you as you go to see him.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Sikongo, you can see me in my chambers. I also have a message for you.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: There is also a message for the hon. Minister of Technology and Science. I will try to see him. Let me just say there are messages for everyone.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The people are happy, but we need to do more in terms of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Otherwise, we missed you. I would also like to take this opportunity to appreciate all the hon. Members and congratulate all of you for the role that you played for Zambia to attain the 75 per cent vaccination rate in terms of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). Well done. So, if we continue working together, we can reach 100 per cent.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR SIMUMBA, HON. MEMBER FOR NAKONDE, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON THE DELIVERY OF FARMING INPUTS TO NAKONDE

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the good people of Nakonde a chance to raise this matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134 directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, Nakonde is a rural constituency and the population there is mainly comprised of small-scale farmers and farming is their source of income. Now, the people of Nakonde are in a dilemma. They do not know what is happening with the hon. Minister of Agriculture. This is because up to now, they have not received any fertiliser and they have not even started the process of depositing the K400 contributions.

Madam Speaker, this is against what we were promised by the New Dawn Administration that it was going to increase the beneficiaries of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), yet some of the people have been removed from co-operatives.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture, therefore, in order to sit there comfortably with Vatra mineral water on the side, yet the people of Nakonde are crying? They do not know if they are going to use animal manure or not.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance on this matter because the people of Nakonde are going to die from hunger.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MS LUNGU, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAWAMA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON THE RISE OF CRIME IN CHAWAMA

Ms Lungu (Chawama): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Ms Lungu: Madam Speaker, this matter of urgent public importance is addressed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. On 18^th October, 2022, in Chawama, John Howard to be specific, a gang of young people attacked the residents of John Howard, and this is not the very first time that this has taken place. It has happened before and is still happening. The people are now scared because there has been no redress since this last incident that I am speaking of on 18^th October, 2022. People’s goods were stolen and a single mother’s tomatoes were taken. A grandmother purchased mealie-meal on her way home and this gang stole her mealie-meal. There are a total of eleven businesses whose goods were stolen.

Madam Speaker, let me just mention that there is hunger in the compounds at the moment and the people are trying their best. The little they have to sell to enable them take care of their families is being stolen. They are living in fear at the moment and there has been no redress from the ministry. Nothing has been sent to the police. I also want to mention that the police are doing their very best, but this is just too much for them. This gang has as many as 100 people in it.

Madam Speaker, as I mentioned before, the people are vulnerable. So, the tensions are going up. They are now thinking of taking matters in their own hands. We are doing our best to allow the police to do their work, but it is just too much.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF ENERGY, MR KAPALA, ON THE INCREASE OF FUEL

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for allowing the people of Kamfinsa Constituency to rise on this very urgent matter of public importance.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) announced that the prices for petrol and diesel, including kerosene, had been adjusted upwards. After that announcement, a press statement was released by the ERB and the heading of this press statement is “Petroleum Pump Prices Revised”. I read through that statement, and in paragraph three, the ERB referred to the global recession that is in effect. The board again referred to the global recession in paragraph five. Therefore, twice in this very important matter, the global recession has been referred to.

Madam Speaker, I recall that, in 2008, Zambia faced huge challenges arising from the global economic meltdown. Is the Leader of Government Business in the House in order not to come to this House to inform the public on this very important aspect of the global economic meltdown and how prepared Zambia is to cope with this challenge especially that, from experience, whenever we have an economic meltdown, not only are jobs affected, but mining is affected, and literally our economy comes to a halt.

I seek your serious indulgence, Madam Speaker, for the nation to be informed about this very worrying issue that needs to be addressed so that all stakeholders are aware how Zambia is coping with this very important aspect of the global economic meltdown.

MR KAMBITA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ZAMBEZI EAST, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, ENG. MILUPI, ON THE STATE OF THE ROAD LEADING TO CHITOKOLOKI MISSION HOSPITAL

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to raise this matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, a few weeks ago, whilst you were away, I rose on a matter of urgent public importance concerning the only district hospital that we have in Zambezi East, which is in a deplorable state. As regards the solution that was given, thankfully, the hon. Minister of Health assured us that a new district hospital will be built at a site already identified in Zambezi East. At the moment, there is a mission hospital 50 or 55 km away from the township which is being relied on. Therefore, the district hospital is doing most of its referrals to that mission hospital called Chitokoloki Mission Hospital. Now, that gives rise to another matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. When patients are being ferried from Zambezi District Hospital to Chitokoloki Mission Hospital, they use a road which is almost a hell run. Some of the patients, especially pregnant mothers, give birth on the way while others die.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence and I ask the Central Government to consider upgrading that stretch of 55 km to bituminous standard so that as we wait for the new hospital, which is going to take a few years to be completed, patients can be ferried on a road which is passable.

Madam Speaker: It has become a whole session.

MS NAKAPONDA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ISOKA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON THE FISP

Ms Nakaponda(Isoka): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance relates to the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

Madam Speaker, the people of Isoka are complaining that there is too much political interference in the administration of the FISP this year. New co-operatives have been added, but the Government has maintained the same packs. I would like the hon. Minister of Agriculture to explain to me why they have added new co-operatives, but have maintained the same number of packs.

MS PHIRI, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MILANZI, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON FERTILISER DISTRIBUTION IN KATETE DISTRICT

Ms Phiri (Milanzi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Ms Phiri:Thank you, Madam Speaker. The matter I am about to raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, I note with sadness that hunger is looming in Katete District and Milanzi Constituency in particular. I say so because most households in Milanzi Constituency have run out of food. This is as a result of the poor harvest experienced this year because of the failure and incompetence of the New Dawn Government to deliver fertiliser …

Hon. UPND Members: Question.

Ms Phiri:… in good time.

Madam Speaker, to date, some farmers in Milanzi Constituency are still owed top dressing fertiliser from last year’s farming season. This is November and there is no hope when fertiliser will be delivered. The people of Milanzi want to know when they will receive fertiliser. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture aware that he has continued to torture the poor farmers because of the inconsistencies in the delivery of fertiliser?

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on this matter.

MR ANDELEKI, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KATOMBOLA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF EDUCATION, MR SYAKALIMA, ON THE GULLY AT KAZUNGULA DAY BOARDING SECONDARY SCHOOL

Mr Andeleki(Katombola): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Andeleki:Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Katombola to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Education or the Acting Minister of Education.

Madam Speaker, in Katombola Constituency, we only have one boarding secondary school, namely Kazungula Day Boarding Secondary School, and there is a very big gully there. This school is at the verge of being washed away. It is a looming disaster. I have been engaging the hon. Minister of Education from January. I rarely bring matters here before I engage the ministry but now, the heavens are pregnant and the rains are about to come, and that school is at the verge of being washed away. I hope the hon. Minister of Education who was invited to visit that school will issue a statement on the Government’s position before a disaster occurs.

MR MUNG’ANDU, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA SOUTH, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON ELECTORAL VIOLENCE IN CHAMA DISTRICT

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:  A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, greetings from the people of Chama South and welcome back.

Madam Speaker, we are in a very bad situation, and this matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, two days ago, when I went to campaign in an area called Ntembezani, the United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres waylaid me together with my party officials, and they stoned our vehicles. Hon. Mtayachalo was with me and they smashed the windscreen for my vehicle. I managed to restrain our cadres and I will continue doing so because it has never happened in our constituency. Again, yesterday, – we gave one of the best solidarities to our brothers in the UPND, and we believe politics are a matter of contestation of ideas and policies, not the physicality. In spite of giving those who were stranded cold water because it is too hot here, and even helping them, they continued torturing the people. One woman collapsed because of the mangoes and stones that the UPND Members were using to attack, including catapults, and these are people whose names we know and we will be taking them to court very soon.

Madam Speaker, I have learnt that this is not happening only here in Chama; it is happening everywhere and it is damaging our Government. As I speak to you, a man called Mushota Ng’uni from Lundazi has brought criminals from Lundazi to terrorise the people in Lumezi Ward in Chama South Constituency.Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to sit quietly, despite us having reported to the police? Dockets were opened and complaints were lodged almost everywhere, yet he is quiet and doing nothing about it. My fear is that if this continues, we might just lose lives, apart from having our Government damaged. This has never happened before here in Chama South, but it is happening now under the New Dawn Government.

I seek your serious guidance on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: As a matter of interest, hon. Member for Chama South, are you not supposed to be in the House?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I got permission and I followed all the processes. Since there is a by-election, we are allowed to attend meetings virtually. I am the campaign manager here. I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you, I have noted that, but if you are campaigning, how are you managing to log in and ask questions?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Anyway, I think that is a matter for later.

Mr Kampyongo: He got permission.

Madam Speaker: I have taken note hon. Whip for the Patriotic Front (PF).

MR MICHELO, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BWEENGWA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON THE FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME DEPOSITS IN MONZE DISTRICT

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Bweengwa to rise on a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, this morning, I received shocking phone calls from the people of Bweengwa, Monze Central and Moomba Constituency or can I simply say the entire Monze District.

Madam Speaker, people in large numbers are trying to make deposits for their inputs at the banks. Right now, these people are being told that those living near town or the Central Business District (CBD) are supposed to deposit individually, and not as co-operatives and that people coming from far places are the ones who are supposed to give the money to co-operative leaders to go and deposit on their behalf. In Monze District, we are now wondering why there are two types of laws. Instead of people giving money to the co-operative leader to go and deposit, they are told that everyone living near town should deposit individually.

Madam Speaker, right now, the situation is very serious. There are many people at the banks and it is very difficult for them to deposit the money. The issue is we are now trying to kill the co-operatives. Why were the co-operatives formed? They were formed to allow co-operative leaders to manage business for other friends in the co-operatives. Right now, people are complaining heavily and they are not happy about the situation or the directives given by the hon. Minister of Agriculture. The request is that, since we have delayed, we should go back to the old system, the way it used to be done in the past, so that people can make the deposits as co-operatives. Thereafter, these issues can be corrected beginning February, next year. Right now, we are wondering what the hon. Minister of Agriculture will tell thousands of farmers who live near towns how he will help them so that we decongest the banks and the system.

 

Madam Speaker: Thank you for the nine matters of urgent public importance that have been raised. Before I respond to any one of them, I just want to remind hon. Members about the criterion upon which a matter of urgent public importance may be raised. The criterion is very clear and I have made rulings several times on this by way of guidance, to inform hon. Members which matter qualifies to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.

Hon. Members, Standing Order 135 is very clear on admissibility of the matters raised as matters of urgent public importance, and specifically says as follows:

(1) A matter shall be considered urgent and of public importance if –

1. it is a case of recent occurrence;
2. it does not relate to a general state of affairs;
3. it involves the administrative or ministerial responsibility of the Government;
4. it requires the immediate attention of the House and the Government; and

(e)          it deals with only one substantive issue.

(2) A matter is inadmissible as a matter of urgent public importance if –

1. it has not been raised at the earliest opportunity;
2. it has already been discussed by the House during the same Session;
3. it is not so serious as to require urgent attention; or
4. it is sub judice.

So, let me now turn on to the individual matters that have been raised. I will start with the one by the hon. Member for Nakonde. I will deal with them in this way; the hon. Member for Nakonde, against the hon. Minister of Agriculture concerning the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Then the hon. Member for Isoka raised a related matter relating to the FISP and the hon. Member for Milanzi also raised a matter relating to the FISP. Okay, those three matters relate to one aspect which is the FISP.

Hon. Members will recall that the hon. Minister has, on several occasions, issued ministerial statements on the Floor of this House concerning the FISP and how it is going to be administered, the challenges or what measures are being taken to ensure that the fertiliser is distributed. Furthermore, other questions have been asked and the hon. Minister issued a ministerial statement two weeks ago. If hon. Members have had a look at today’s Order Paper, they may have seen that there is a question being asked by the hon. Member for Lubansenshi touching on the same issue of the FISP.

So, it appears this matter of the FISP is not going to go away, no matter what. Since the hon. Minister is here, we will ask him, if he is able to, to indicate the challenges he is facing although the matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance, but because of the concern that fertiliser has not been delivered in time and that some people have been omitted. The hon. Member for Bweengwa also raised an issue and he said that deposits are now done individually instead of being done by co-operatives.

Hon. Minister of Agriculture, are you able to give an indication now?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, because of the urgency and the importance of the issue, I would really like to respond to the queries the hon. Members have raised.

Madam Speaker:When I am done responding to the others, you will be given an opportunity to shed some light because the matter is urgent and the rains are here. In Mongu, it is already raining.

The hon. Member for Chawama raised a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security that there is a gang attacking people in Chawama and that people are living in fear. So, in relation to the attacks in Chawama, hon.Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, do you have any immediate reaction, or would you want to come later?

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (MrMwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I am able to issue a statement immediately after the hon. Minister of Agriculture has issued his.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Let us proceed to the matter raised by the hon. Member for Zambezi East.

Of course, the matter raised concerning the upgrading of the road to bituminous standard is important, but surely, it does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance under Standing Order 134 and the criteria for admissibility as stated in Standing Order 135. So, the hon. Member for Zambezi East can, maybe, put in a question so that the matter is raised as such.

The hon. Member for Katombola raised a matter about a school which is about to be washed away with the onset of the rains and is in a bad state, and it is directed at the hon. Minister of Education.

Hon. Member for Katombola, I believe there is a good thing called the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Have you had recourse to this fund to ensure that you put in place measures to address that problem? By way of guidance, my advice is that you seek recourse to the CDF to be able to address that issue as you wait for the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to attend to the issue of structures but, definitely, not the hon. Minister of Education.

 

The hon. Member for Chama South, who is a campaign manager somewhere, stated that there is violence where he is. The hon. Member also stated that they have reported the matter to the police, and that those people will be taken to court very soon. So, since the matter has been reported to the police and the culprits who are very well-known will be taken to court very soon, let us leave the police to do their work and they will be able to attend to that issue.

So, the matter raised by the hon. Member for Chama South has not been admitted. The one raised by the hon. Member for Katombola hasnot been admitted, and the one raised by the hon. Member for Zambezi East has not been admitted.

The other matter was raised by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. He saidthat, in the statement issued by theEnergy Regulation Board(ERB), there is a mention of the global recession twice. So, thehon. Member is worried and he would like the Government to inform the people what the status of the economy is, and the onset of a meltdown.

Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, according to Standing Order 134, read together with 135, this issue does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Of course, it is important, but you can find means and ways to raise it, instead of raising it as matter of urgent public importance. Maybe, you can put in question.

So, with that, I call upon the hon. Minister of Agriculture to respond to the issues raised by the hon. Member for Nakonde, the hon. Member for Isoka, the hon. Member for Milanzi and the hon. Member for Bweengwa.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank you for this grace to allow me to discuss with the hon. Members here, the problems which are being encountered.

Madam Speaker, I will start with the issue raised by the hon. Member for Nakonde, who indicated that there is no fertiliser in Nakonde. I do not want to argue that point, but let me inform the hon. Member for Nakonde, the House and the nation that as at today, we have delivered 6,248 metric tonnes of fertiliser to the Northern Province. Therefore, to make an assertion and an allegation that people are goingto die of hunger and all sorts of things, might not be the right way of speaking because we are merely alarming the nation. Yes, we are late, but I assure you that, countrywide, we are well over 35 per cent in terms of deliverables of fertiliser. So, the hon. Member for Nakonde should feel free to come and see me so that I can tell him exactly how much fertiliser has been delivered to the Northern Province deport by deport and place by place. That is my job and I will be very happy to do that with the hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Isoka complained about why we registered new co-operatives. Honestly speaking, I am beaten that the hon. Member can ask a question like that. The fertiliser programme is supposed to run on an individual for three years. The first year,he gets fertiliser at 100 per cent, the second year at 75 per cent, the third year at 25 per cent, and the fourth year,he is out of the programme. We should revolve this and allow other members to get the fertiliser.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Most of the people complaining are those who have been getting fertiliser from 2002 up to now. They have been the same people getting fertiliser for twenty yearsover and over. We should not allow that.I would like my honourable sisterto encourage new co-operatives to register so that those who have not benefitted can benefit. I also encourage her to come over, we have a chat so that we can assist each other.

Madam Speaker, I will not react to my sister, the hon. Member for Milanzi, the way I should have reacted. I did not like the way she told the nation that weare punishing farmers, and that there is no food in Milanzi because the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government did not deliver fertiliser on time.

Madam Speaker, you are aware, and the House and country is aware that, last year, the fertiliser we distributed, is what we got from the Patriotic Front (PF) Government and only carried on with it. Now, weare trying to heal the issue of poking each other, as UPND versus PF; there is no need. So, it is absolutely wrong, outrageous and incorrect for the hon. Member to stand up here and say that the UPND Government failed to deliver fertiliser and, therefore, there is hunger. We should not mislead the country like that. She is my sister, why can she not come and talk to me?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mtolo: So, I do not think that is how the House should run, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Can we have some quietness.

Mr Mtolo: We inform the country correct things. We carried on the fertiliser, which the previous Government and my brother Hon. Katambo had secured for two years. When we came, we merely delivered the fertiliser. We only bought fertiliser for the Southern Province and the Western Province, not Katete. So, let us tell the truth. However, I will now answer her question.

Madam Speaker, if there is hunger in Katete, I would like the nation to know that as I speak, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), which is the holder of food for the country, has more than 1.2 million tonnes of maize. Even if we would not have harvested anything this year, no one in Zambia will die of hunger up until 2024. So, if there is hunger in Milanzi, the hon. Member should go to the Office of the Vice-President or my office so we can make arrangements to start selling maize in Milanzi because maize is available. She may have seen the stacks of maize, which we have in Katete. We are ready to offer that maize so that the people do not die of anger. No one wants any Zambian to die.

Madam Speaker, coming to the issue raised by the hon. Member for Bweengwa, the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources, I appreciate what he has said, but as I said the last time I issued a ministerial statement in response to other questions, we changed the programme. One member of the co-operative can pick the names of the farmers and can take the money to the bank and it will accept. Yes, we said that farmers who are nearby should go to the banks on their own and deposit the K400. Technology is important so we also encourage those with phones to send the money through the phone so that there is less congestion. However, I have taken note. Immediately I am done responding to my questions, I will go out and talk to the agricultural officers in Bweengwa so that we decongest the town. It is unfortunate if there is huge congestion because of that.

Madam Speaker, we changed the system so that people can go and deposit the money on their own as a way of cleaning it. Many co-operatives had no membership, and one person would have sixty fake names and would get the fertiliser and sell it. It is these same hon. Members who were telling me that there is a lot of fertiliser theft. Many people were arrested last year and taken to the police because of stealing the fertiliser which is supposed to go to the poor and vulnerable farmers. All I am trying to do as the Minister of Agriculture is to change the system and keep away those who have been stealing the fertiliser …

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: … or who have been misapplying the fertiliser. I withdraw the term stealing because it is unparliamentary. So, we will try our level best to implement a system which is good for the country and which will take out the hunger in the country by giving fertiliser to the vulnerable farmers who are the producers of 96 per cent of our staple food, which is maize.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There will be no questions and answers and the hon. Members who asked those questions have been invited to engage the Minister of Agriculture to clear these issues, but –

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Madam Speaker: We have an order of proceedings which we have to follow. Once we start asking questions, we will derail ourselves. There is a question on the FISP and we can take advantage of that. So, those questions can be asked when we will be considering Question No. 83. Please, take note of your questions and then ask them at that time.

However, by way of guidance, if we, as hon. Members, say that people are dying of hunger, we are sending bad signals to the people and they will become desperate. As Members of Parliament, let us take responsibility. Let us ensure that we find ways and means for people to appreciate what the Government is trying to do with the FISP. The idea here is that the people who benefitted from the FISP for so many years should have graduated so that new entrants come in and also benefit. The idea is not to give the same people all the time. That is the idea behind the FISP. Once we understand that, maybe, we will be able to advise the constituents accordingly.

The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will also respond to the issue raised by the hon. Member for Chawama.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, with your permission, before I respond to the issue raised by the Member of Parliament for Chawama, Hon. Tasila Lungu, may I just have this rare privilege of congratulating the United Party for National Development (UPND) through the new Member of Parliament for Kwacha, Hon. Mulenga, and our new Member for Kabushi for resoundingly winning the elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, they will be in this House until 2026.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Fimba upoke!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, coming to the very important matter that was raised by my sister, the hon. Member for Chawama, pertaining to the terrorising of residents in Chawama, I wish to confirm that there are a number of groups called junkies who are terrorising people in the various townships of Lusaka and we are aware of that. We are also aware of the political connotations pertaining to the harassment that is going on.

Madam Speaker, I am also privy to the video that is circulating pertaining to the harassment of people in Chawama and Kanyama by junkies. As these junkies are terrorising members of the public, they are issuing political statements and showing party symbols, and we are aware of that.

Madam Speaker, as Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, I wish to inform the nation that we are aware of what is going on and we are not going to sit idle and allow the security of the nation and the people to degenerate. We are going to put up appropriate measures to counter what is going on. There will be some inconveniences as we progress to protect the people, but I appeal to members of the public to bear with us as we ensure to protect our people. We have come up measures which we will implement as soon as possible to ensure that peace and stability is returned.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: In view of that statement that the hon. Minister is taking measures to ensure that the situation is put under control, it will not be prudent for us to start enquiring on what measures, how and when. For now, let us leave it to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to ensure that the security of the nation is protected in Chawama and all other constituencies.

We take this peace for granted; you should go to Rwanda. Hon. Members who have gone to Rwanda have seen what it has done and where it came from. We all need to change our mindset and ensure that we live in harmony with each other. This idea of saying I am a member of the Patriotic Front (PF), the United Party for National Development (UPND), an Independent Member or what have you does not build a nation. Let us change our mindset and live together in harmony.

Peace begins with each one of us, as individuals, being responsible, changing our mindset and living with our brothers and sisters in harmony. Only when you go through the problems Rwanda went through will you appreciate peace. If we lose this peace that we take for granted, it will be very difficult for us to get it back. I think only women appreciate peace because when problems come, they are the worst hit, but men should also take a leaf and ensure that we maintain our peace.

Let us make progress. Let me not be a preacher.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: For the avoidance of doubt, Her Honour the Vice-President is out of town on Government Business and the hon. Minister of Defence will continue to act as the Leader of Government Business in the House until further notice.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

COP27 IN EGYPT

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, I bring you fraternal greetings from the good people of Nangoma and they are very pleased with your preaching this afternoon.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: They wish you good health.

Madam Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to thank you most sincerely for allowing me to issue this ministerial statement on the forthcoming Twenty-Seventh Session of the Conference of Parties (COP27) to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) to be held from 6^th November to 18^th November, 2022, in Sharm El-Sheikh in the Republic of Egypt.

Madam Speaker, climate change is the most pressing issue facing humanity today. It is a global problem that will need co-operation from all countries of the world in order to solve the crisis. This is because greenhouse gasses do not respect sovereign territorial boundaries of any individual country. Indeed, greenhouse gasses that are emitted in countries as far afield as China, India, the United States of America (USA) or those in the European Union (EU), will ultimately contribute to global warming in faraway places such as Zambia. For this reason, climate change negotiations are done under the global forum, the UNFCCC, which was adopted in 1992 and whose objective is to stabilise the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gasses to avoid dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system. The convention, which entered into force on 21^st March, 1994 now has 119 parties. Zambia signed the UNFCCC on 11^th June 1992, and ratified it on 28^th May, 1993.

Madam Speaker, the Kyoto Protocol, which was adopted in 1997, provides legal force for industrialised countries to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions and it is headed by the COP serving as a meeting of the Parties to the Kyoto Protocol (CMP). On the other hand, the Paris Agreement adopted in 2015 is aimed at enhanced and more effective implementation of climate change programmes by aiming at restricting average global increase in temperature to 2⁰Cwhile working towards limiting it to 1.5⁰C by the end of this century.

Madam Speaker, the Paris Agreement is headed by the conference serving as a meeting of the Parties to the Paris Agreement (CMA). The COP and now the CMA are held simultaneously annually and constitute the highest decision-making body on climate change to provide guidance on the implementation of the provisions of the convention and decisions aimed at addressing global climate change. Therefore, the main objective of COP each year is to review the implementation of the provisions of the UNFCCC in order to ensure effectiveness in addressing the global challenge.

Madam Speaker, it is for this reason that I now stand on the Floor of this House to render a ministerial statement on the Twenty-SeventhSession of the Conference of Parties commonly referred to as COP27. I will also touch on the matters that happened at the Twenty-Sixth Session of the Conference of Parties (COP26) in Glasgow. Permit me to start with COP27.

Madam Speaker, Zambia will be attending COP27 in Egypt next week and the leader of the Zambian delegation, as was the case for COP26, will be His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema. We need such a high-level delegation leader at COP because in these conferences, there are three requisite ingredients to unlock international financing for climate change mitigation and adaptation and environmental protection and these include the following:

1. Political Commitment

This relates to leadership and understanding that is required to build the courage, the confidence and the political space for accelerated climate mitigation and adaption actions. This calls for a clear vison and commitment to pursue it from the political leadership, including good governance, prudent utilisation of scarce resources and zero tolerance to corruption. In our case, the New Dawn Government’s vision for tackling climate change to ensure environmental sustainability is summed up in the name of my ministry: Green Economy and Environment;

1. Institutional Arrangements

Improving institutional arrangements at all levels, that is, national, provincial, district and local levels so as to better manage future challenges posed by climate change within the multi-dimensional context of modern-day socio- economic and developmental pressure; and

1. Policy Framework

A structured process for developing climate change strategies, policies and measures to enhance and ensure human development in the face of climate change, including climate variability.

Madam Speaker, of the three requisite ingredients for unlocking international climate financing listed above, I dare say that political commitment bears the highest premium. Today, the whole world has confidence in President Hakainde Hichilema and it wants to talk with him because it clearly understands his vision, and he is walking the talk. In the climate change space, we want to capitalise on this goodwill and make the most out of it by lobbying for climate finance to enable us enhance the implementation of our climate change mitigation and adaptation programmes, which define our green economy and environment agenda. Additionally, our institutional arrangements and policy frameworks for climate change mitigation and adaptation are robust and solid enough to complement the high political commitment that we are enjoying at the moment.

Madam Speaker, COP27 is dubbed as ‘Implementation COP’ essentially highlighting the fact that we, as a global community of nations, are running out of time to meet our global goal of limiting global warming to 2 ⁰C, let alone 1.5 ⁰C by the end of this century. Indeed, the 2018 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) special report on 1.5 ⁰C is unequivocal when it finds that limiting global warming to 1.5 ⁰C would require rapid and far-reaching transitions in land, energy, industry, buildings, transport and cities. Global net human-caused emissions of carbon dioxide would need to fall by about 45 per cent from 2010 levels by 2030, reaching net zero around 2050. This means that any remaining emissions would need to be balanced by removing carbon dioxide from the air. The question is: What happens if we overshoot the 2 ⁰C global goal limit? The answer is that exceeding the 2 ⁰C global goal limit will take us into an extremely dangerous territory, what we call climate tipping points, which are conditions beyond which changes in a part of a climate system become self-perpetuating.

Madam Speaker, these changes may lead to abrupt irreversible and dangerous impacts with serious implications for humanity. For a country like Zambia, which is deep in the interior, a rainy season without a single drop of rain could be a possibility. For low-lying small island states, the possibility of sea level rise that would submerge the entire island with people and property remains a possibility. The majority of the small island states are now ravaged by increasingly severe storms. The unprecedented floods that ravaged Pakistan in the last few months are another reminder of climate tipping points. The danger is real.

Madam Speaker, as a global community of nations, there are essentially three gaps that COP26 in Glasgow could not close that were taken to COP27 and these include the following:

Mitigation Gap

Madam Speaker, climate mitigation pledges in the nationally determined contributions of all parties to the Paris Agreement put together fall off the 2 ⁰C global target. In fact, with their current mitigation ambitions as at COP27, they would leave us with the temperature increase of 2.7 ⁰C by the turn of the century. This is contrary to the global goal of 2 ⁰C we have set for ourselves as a global community.

Financing Gap

Madam Speaker, at the COP26, climate financing for climate change mitigation and adaption was US$20 billion short of the US$100 billion pledge that was made at COP15 in Copenhagen in 2009. Even then, committed pledges would only be actualised in 2023, if any at all.

Adaptation Gap

Madam Speaker, as at COP26, adaptation financing was at 25 per cent instead of the 50 per cent split between mitigation and adaptation which is recommended by the Paris Agreement.

Madam Speaker, it is because of the challenges highlighted above, among others, that COP27 has been dubbed as an implementation cop. It is hoped that the global community of nations will put their hands together at COP27 to close the gaps highlighted above in a meaningful manner. Developed countries will be expected to commit and actualise significantly more ambitious mitigation and financing pledges.

Madam Speaker, COP27 is also special in the sense that, it will take place on the African continent, a continent responsible for only 4 per cent of the global emissions, yet suffering the most from the climate shocks. For our beloved country Zambia, COP27 is special because having been elected as Chair of the African group of negotiators, we will lead Africa during the climate change negotiations having facilitated the preparations of the Africa common positions including the key messages adopted by the African Ministerial Conference on the Environment chaired by yours truly here, and the Committee of the African Heads of States and Government on Climate Change chaired by His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, the following are the key messages on the African position that Zambia will present at COP27.

Enhanced Climate Finance

Madam Speaker, COP27 must deliver ambitious financial outcomes, including delivery of the much promised US$100 billion, delivery of the COP26 financial pledges, significant progress on setting the new collective mobilisation goal for 2025, and establish financing for just transition pathways to support developing countries.

Strengthen Adaptation Actions

Madam Speaker, for the Africa group, a successful adaptation outcome at COP27 in Egypt will have to include delivery of a substantive milestone in the work programme on the global goal on adaptation to inform the assessment of progress towards achieving the global goal adaption in the first global stocktake.

Enhance Support to Address Loss and Damage

Madam Speaker, COP27, is expected to make progress on the provision of both technical and financial support to developing countries to address loss and damage associated with climate change. There is a need to establish a formal agenda item to discuss financing arrangements for loss and damage.

Consideration and Recognition of Africa’s Special Needs and Circumstances

Madam Speaker, while Africa only contributes less than 4 per cent of greenhouse gasses that are responsible for global warming, the continent is the worst affected by the impacts of climate change. Thus, COP27 must launch work on a consideration on the special needs and special circumstances of Africa under the Paris Agreement in line with the relevant and previous decisions adopted by the COPs.

Enhance Mitigation Ambition and Implementation

Madam Speaker, COP27 should respond to the latest report of the inter-governmental panel on climate change and take decisions to enhance mitigation actions and advance the implementation of the nationally determined contributions. Developed countries should scale up their mitigation actions and provide necessary support to developing countries to contribute their fair shares.

Financing for Just Transition Pathways

Madam Speaker, building on COP26 decisions and initiatives, COP27 should take decisions on financial support to promote sustainable development and support African countries to effectively move away from fossil-heavy development models in a just and fair manner. COP27 needs to secure meaningful commitments and investments for programmatic renewable energy at scale and support the social and equity dimensions of the just transition pathways.

Implementation Package

Madam Speaker, COP27 is expected to provide support for the implementation of Africa-led initiatives, including renewable energy and adaptation.

Madam Speaker, even as we shall speak on behalf of the African continent, in our capacity as African Group of Negotiators (AGN)Chair at COP27, we shall also push our country’s position in order to address the climate change challenges that are specific to our national circumstances, including own adaptation, the need to define the global goal adaptation and increase financial and technical and technological support for implementing the national adaptation plan and adaptation components of the nationally determined contributions.

Madam Speaker, on loss and damage, we refer to the consequences of climate change that go beyond what people can adapt to or when options exist, but the community does not have the resource to access or utilise them. In this regard, Zambia will ask COP27 to clarify and operationalise the institutional structure for the loss and damage including operational modalities.

Madam Speaker, on matters related to finance, Zambia expects COP27 to deliver on the new goal or target for climate financing commensurate with science and the developing needs or developing countries including delivering on the overdue US$100 billion pledge by developed countries. The operational definition on climate finance, new collective mobilisation goal on climate finance, financing for just transitions, need for developed countries to commit to higher mitigation targets that are commensurate with the global goal of limiting global warming to 1.5 deg and capacity building.

Madam Speaker, climate change is a knowledge intensive arena and requires adept negotiators. I can confirm that our negotiators are well prepared and ready for the task ahead at COP27.

Madam Speaker, in order to ensure our full and effect participation, Zambia has for the very first time established its own pavilion and delegation office which will allow it to have adequate space for the delegation to showcase our interventions in transitioning to a climate resilient and inclusive green economy. This space will also be used to promote Zambia’s climate-friendly tourism, mining, energy and agriculture potential to delegates from other parties to the UNFCCC participating at COP27, including many other investments opportunities that the country offers.

Madam Speaker, this is a pavilion for Zambia and such, all ministries, – and we hope as many as possible will there, – agencies and other collaborating partners are welcome to exhibit at the pavilion as part of our collective desire to market Zambia’s investment potential to the outside world in order to grow our economy and create jobs for the youths.

Madam Speaker, most importantly, our pavilion will allow us ample space and flexibility in setting up bilateral meetings with potential partners for climate financing. Indeed, immediate positive results from COP meetings are usually measured by the volume of successful memoranda of understanding that are achieved following the COP meetings. Indeed, a number of high-level bilateral engagements for His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, other hon. Ministers and I are planned for COP27 and others are still being finalised.

Madam Speaker, let me now quickly turn to some of the achievements we made at COP26 in Glasgow through bilateral engagements to give you a glimpse of the potential benefits that we are likely to reap from COP27.

Madam Speaker, through the engagement of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, with the administrator, Ms Samatha Power, from USAID, Zambia was able to secure a place to implement the Comprehensive Africa Climate Change Initiative whose primary objective is to support African member states in implementing the Paris Agreement on climate change through nationally determined contributions or national adaptation plans. This project is already being implemented through the Indaba for Agriculture Policy Analysis and Research Institute (IAPRI).

Madam Speaker, on the sidelines of the COP 26, President Hakainde Hichilema engaged with the then British Prime Minister, Mr Boris Johnson, and signed a Green Compact Deal which focuses on mitigation measures that reduce greenhouse gas emissions while promoting adaptation and seeks solutions toward the impacts of climate change. It was mutuallyagreed that over the next five years, there will be an additional £1 billion worth of the United Kingdom (UK) Foreign Direct Investment injected in Zambia. Further pledges were made to support Zambia’s effort to a green growth for Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) to create jobs as well as support its competitiveness in regional trade and investments.

 

Madam Speaker, on carbon trade, Zambia has received support from the German Government through a project dubbed ‘Supporting Preparedness for Article 6 Co-operative Approaches Project’. This is aimed at supporting the country in its readiness to engage in carbon trading as provided for in the Paris Agreement. Zambia has also received support from the Global Green Growth Institute to support the development of the Green Growth Strategy for Zambia. The support is for the provision of technical expertise to facilitate the development of the Green Growth Indexes.

Madam Speaker, projects like Lake Tanganyika and the Zambia Integrated Forest Landscape Project (ZIFLP), which were at the verge of being cancelled because of political interference which lead to the violation of the principles of cost due to rampart corruption, low quality of works by contractors and late delivery of projects, were not only given a new lease of life, but the projects end dates have since been extended.I am glad to inform you that these projects are now performing well and the bank has since promised to start new ones.

Madam Speaker, as part of the process to contribute to the commitment made at the COP 26 to halt deforestation by 2030, Zambia will, at the COP 27, sign a memorandum of understating with the European Union (EU). The memorandum of understanding is aimed at enhancing the role of Zambian forests in sustainable and inclusive national development and addressing challenges related to deforestation, forest degradation and loss of biodiversity. Among the activities to support include:

1. forest inventory;
2. afforestation and reforestation;
3. increasing the areaof protected forests;
4. increasing the number of forests and forestation-related decent jobs; and
5. reducing of the annual rate of deforestation and of natural forests.

Madam Speaker, at the global stage such as the COP 27, we want to take maximum advantage of the unprecedented political commitment premised on the exceptional, visionary and transparent leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, which has brought abundant goodwill for Zambia. Every country, rich or poor, is yearning to establish a working relationship with Zambia at Presidential and ministerial levels.

Madam Speaker, our goal is to cash in on this huge political commitment as much as we can. So, we look forward to many bilateral engagements at the COP 27. I am very confident that these engagements will yield positive results that will help us leverage financing for environmental protection and climate change mitigation and adaptation in our country.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I encourage every hon. Member of this honourable House to take keen interest in climate change and environmental matters as these are serious matters which cut across all sectors and affect every one without exception. Greening the Zambian economy and environment is only possible when every Zambian is involved.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The statement has really taken long. So, we will make it twenty minutes. I hope there will be sufficient interest. The subject is very interesting. However, may I take this opportunity to welcome into the House the new hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi and the hon. Member for Kwacha. You are welcome and feel at home.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the voice of Chienge the opportunity to be heard on this very important ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker, welcome back. At least, we are now behaving nicely since you are back.

Hon. Members: Ah! Question!

Rev. Katuta:Ki masholi.

Laughter

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I would like to find from the hon. Minister what the ministry is planning to do. As hon. Members of Parliament, we have all been asked to plant, at least, a thousand trees. The people from rural constituencies’ livelihood is charcoal burning, but I do not really support that even though I know that is their livelihood. Is there anything that the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment can come with to the House to help us stop charcoal burning because it is really damaging our forests in our country? When one is driving along the Great North Road in the night, one sees 30 tonnes of trucks overloaded with sacks of charcoal and it is a sad story. Is there a way this ministry can help the people understand that we are heading towards a disaster?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Katuka.

Rev. Katuta: Katuta!

Eng. Nzovu: Katuta sorry, the Member of Parliament for Chienge, who, I must admit, has been supporting the ministry and has also made a lot of efforts in assisting us address the challenge of charcoal burning.

Madam Speaker, in answering the question, I wish to inform hon. Members that it was, again, Madam Katuka …

Rev. Katuta: Katuta.

Eng. Nzovu: … Katuta – my sincere apologies hon. Member – who made an effort and actually invited us to Mkushi and Serenje where there was rampart deforestation as a result of charcoal burning to provide energy for the processing of manganese. We went with her and stopped the scourge. Commercial charcoal burning for processing in mining is not allowed under the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015 and I wish to inform the public, through this august House, that offenders will be prosecuted.

Madam Speaker, the other efforts we are making is enhancing the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015 as well as the Environmental Management Agency Act to ensure that there are stiffer penalties for would-be offenders. We actually launched the communication and advocacy strategy to teach the people on the devastating effects of climate change because deforestation really contributes to global warming. So, we are talking to the people. We are also talking to the Minister of Agriculture, Hon. Mtolo, to see how we can promote climate-smart agriculture to increase productivity of the people as an alternative to charcoal burning.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of hon. Members of Parliament planting trees, I think we have sufficiently debated this issue. We have requested hon. Members to up their interest. Issues of climate change are real. All Members across the aisle are breathing the same air. This air will be polluted because of climate change and greenhouse gassing emissions. So, every hon. Member of Parliament, without exception, must come to the table. It is not an issue for the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, but a Zambian and global issue. So, I invite all hon. Members to plant trees. After all, money has been allocated in the Budget through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I will invite Hon. Kampyongo to my office, so that we see how we can work together in Shiwang’andu. I am aware there are plantations which have come up there and he is doing a good job.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, let me join my hon. Colleagues in welcoming you back to the Chamber. On a sad note, allow me to convey my sincere condolences to one of our hon. Colleagues, the Leader of the Opposition, who lost his brother yesterday.

Madam Speaker, we appreciate the ministerial statement delivered by the hon. Minister and the issues he has raised. Taking the hon. Minister back, we had the Paris Agreement, the Conference of Parties (COP) 26 and now there is a delegation going to the Conference of Parties (COP) 27. I agree with the hon. Minister that some of us have been proactive, indeed, as he has confirmed on the Floor, in terms of reforestation programmes.

Madam Speaker, the key challenge we have, like the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge stated, is livelihoods for the people. We need to balance the scale. The hon. Minister has heard our complaints on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), which we shall follow-up with him, and this is supposed to be an alternative source of livelihood for the people who engage in activities such as charcoal burning.

Madam Speaker, I wish to caution the hon. Minister as he goes to negotiate for resources. This is because all these mitigation factors cannot be implemented without resources. Yes, we can rely on the international community and those whom we feel are contributing to the emissions, but we also have to have home grown solutions. How much resources does the ministry intend to put aside for mitigation measures, especially focusing on the practical approach of providing alternative sources for the people who are contributing negatively to the deforestation challenges that we have had?

Madam Speaker: May I also extend my sincere condolences to the Leader of the Opposition on the passing of his dear brother. May his soul rest in peace.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member of Parliamentfor Shiwang’andu, Hon. Kampyongo, for those sentiments. Indeed, the improvement of the lives of the people is a key factor. Therefore, what are we doing in this regard? For us in the developing world, just merely growing all sectors of our economy and upping our nationally determined contributions to COP means growing our economy in the agricultural, energy and manufacturing sectors. This is a key issue. Uplifting the people from the levels they are now to the middle-income bracket is a key factor. So, growing the economy of Zambia is key to ensuring that the people’s livelihoods are improved.

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member listened carefully, I also took time to talk about carbon trading. We want to teach the people and come to a level where a tree standing is more valuable than a cut one. This is the reason Hon. Situmbeko Musokotwane has also allocated some financing for us to establish timber exchanges, so that the little trade we will leave in timber will not only be one where there is international pricing and international markets, but also where we will add value to trees.

 

Madam Speaker, we will be promoting afforestation and reforestation projects. As I said already, because of the goodwill the international community has, we indeed need to leverage climate finance. This is because the developed world has now come to an agreement that with Africa only contributing 4 per cent to greenhouse gas emissions, we have made a case that for us to leave a liveable earth for all the people, everybody must contribute, especially more so the developed world.

Madam Speaker, I have confirmed on the Floor of the House that various efforts are being made, but we need to do more. One of the biggest challenges is actually communication and advocacy. We need to convince the people that this is the right thing to do. In agriculture, we are encouraging conservation farming and the less use of chemicals. We are actually teaching agricultural extension officers, for example, on communication of meteorological information dissemination on climate change issues because the food, water and energy nexus is one we need to solve together. So, these are the things we are doing and we believe that with goodwill from COP 26, we will make progress. Actually, as the New Dawn Government from COP 26 to now, we are seated at a very good table where we will reap benefits.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Where is the hon. Member for Lumezi? Not Lumezi, sorry.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I meant Nyimba. Anyway, we miss the hon. Member for Lumezi, but I was referring to Hon. Menyani Zulu, the Member for Nyimba. Initially, I had said that we can learn a lot from the hon. Member for Nyimba. So, hon. Members, as you complain about charcoal burning and cutting of trees, take note of that. This is why the Kuta and His Majesty the Litunga have asked the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment, Hon. Menyani Zulu, the Member for Nyimba, and the hon. Member for Luena to go to the Western Province and discuss these same issues. This is because whereas in other places there are truckloads of charcoal, in the Western Province, young people carry charcoal on bicycles. These are graduates, but they have no jobs. So, we need to find ways and means of how we can benefit from our forests without cutting them down and look after them, which is what the hon. Member for Nyimba is doing for his people. I have mentioned this, but it looks like people are not taking it seriously. Maybe, we can arrange a workshop for him to share his experiences.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Itezhi-tezhi an opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environmenta follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, the unprecedented political will that is being demonstrated by the Government towards mitigating climate change should be commended. The hon. Minister in his statement mentioned how this Government, through the Conference of Parties (COP) 27, would want to see to it that climate financing is increased and also issues around global warming and climate adaptation are sustained.

Madam Speaker, the conversation that the hon. Minister will take to COP 27 begins with the hon. Members of Parliament right here, who are making laws that intend to sustain climate financing.

Madam Speaker, I also want to mention that Zambia has the largest caucus on climate and environment with over 120 hon. Members and I am the co-chair of that important caucus. As the hon. Minister heads to Egypt, in order to sustain this conversation, the hon. Members in this House, like Hon. Menyani Zulu, whom you mentioned, have stories to go and share. There is also a lot that they can learn from there, which they can bring back home and sustain the efforts of this Government that means well.

Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is: As we head to Egypt, how many hon. Members of Parliament is his ministry intending to support to come along so that the efforts that are going to be assured in Egypt shall be sustained? Our caucus, which the hon. Minister is also a member of, has membership from both the left and right sides of the House and these hon. Members want to support the hon. Minister fully. They want to be part of the conversation, so that his ministry’s efforts can be substantiated through a proper legal framework that will ensure that the issues we are confronting are supported in this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Mutinta for that very important question. Indeed, there is unprecedented political will and we hope to reap benefits. Without pointing at the esteemed Office of the Speaker, Hon. Speaker, we wrote many times to the National Assembly for funding for several hon. Members of Parliament because our budget was very small. Therefore, regrettably, we have not sponsored any hon. Members of Parliament because of budget constraints and we did not receive support from the Office of the Clerk or, in inverted commas, the Speaker’s Office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: My lips are sealed. I am sure that is something that can be looked at.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Munashabantu (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Mapatizya a chance to ask the hon. Minister a question.

Madam Speaker, most of Zambia’s population is in the rural areas, but I stand to be corrected. Charcoal burning has been the major cause of greenhouse emissions and also deforestation happens in rural areas. However, charcoal burning is meeting an energy need somewhere. There can only be demand and then there is supply. In the hon. Minister’s quest to ensure that global warming and carbon emission is curbed by requesting us, hon. Members of Parliament, to help in planting trees, is there an alternative solution to the problem of charcoal burning because we will plant trees but there will be no solution. There has to be an energy solution to meet the demand because if that is not done, ten years from now, people will continue cutting trees because there will still be demand for this form of energy called charcoal.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mapatizya for that very important question, but before I answer it, let me take on your commitment, Madam Speaker, to sponsor a few hon. Members of Parliament here. I can confirm that we are able to register them in the remaining time and allow them to travel as quickly as possible. This has been our call. We thank you in advance for making it possible for my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to travel.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I am looking at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning …

Laughter

Madam Speaker: …who is not looking this side. Okay, we will see.

 

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mapatizya brings out a very important question that touches on the participation of hon. Members of Parliament. I rarely hear hon. Members of Parliament here in this House condemn deforestation caused by charcoal burning. Why are we scared to educate the people? Is it because of political ramifications? Deforestation, caused by rampant charcoal burning, happens in our constituencies, but nobody stands on a podium or calls a press conference to condemn charcoal burners in our constituencies. I encourage hon. Members of Parliament to tell the people the truth and to encourage them to engage in sustainable farming.

Madam Speaker, indeed, Hon. Mtolo is putting in his best efforts to ensure that the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) works, agricultural activities contribute to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and people’s livelihoods are improved. He is committed to doing this, but we also need to talk to the people. So, the challenge is back to the hon. Members of Parliament, who understand these things better, know that we are reaching climate tipping points and that the cause of climate change is partly deforestation. We need to teach the people. So, I encourage hon. Members of Parliament to speak more boldly and not to remain quiet. This is a crisis that demands that we all speak boldly and come on board. This issue is not for the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, but the whole House without exception. Hon. Kampyongo must do more.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for recognising the people of Roan. Whilst we are talking of deforestation caused by the cutting down of trees for charcoal and logs, which the people who brew opaque beer use, I would to find out from the hon. Minister, as to whether, on the other side, he is also concerned with what is happening in some mining entities. Roan Constituency is a mining township and we have seen massive open pit mines being opened which is leading to the cutting down of trees and is disturbing the environment. Are there any deliberate policies or initiatives the ministry is doing to stop this environmental destruction, which is caused by cutting down trees?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member of Parliament, Hon. Chibuye, for asking this very important question.

Madam Speaker, we have two pieces of legislation; the Environmental Management Act and the Forest Act, that do not allow commercial charcoal production. What are we doing? We are now enforcing the law. Under the Environmental Management Act, every developer, without exception, is required to carry out an environmental impact assessment. The authority called Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) gives out what we call decision letters. In those decision letters, there are several conditions which have to be met by the developer before carrying out the development but more so, during the life of the project, and this is where there has been a problem mainly of compliance monitoring. Previously or a few years back, this activity was almost none existent so developers would be given a decision letter and there would be no environmental management.

Madam Speaker, what we now doing through ZEMA is to ensure that there is compliance monitoring and this activity is being enhanced with budget support from Hon. Musokotwane. For the information of the House, operations of some mining activities in Mkushi and Serenje were suspended at eight mining entities on account of deforestation from charcoal burning. Indeed, they were also suspended because they were polluting the environment. They were taken to court, penalised and fined. As I speak today, there is a clean-up of the environment in Mkushi and Serenje and my hon. Colleagues from that area can confirm. This has sent shivers to other mining entities whom, I am reliably informed, are now cleaning the environment because we are slowly but surely going to ensure that they comply with the law.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Lundazi a chance to ask the hon. Minister a question.

Madam Speaker, there is a saying that the best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago. If we missed it twenty years ago, the best time is now. Does the ministry have any seedlings that it can share with hon. Members here so that when we go back to our constituencies, we will start planting trees today, and not tomorrow?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Lundazi for another very important question. I adopt her saying that, indeed, the best time to have planted a tree was twenty years ago, but if we missed it, the best time is now. I cannot agree more with her.

Madam Speaker, the Forestry Department right now has in stock in excess of 1 million trees to be supplied at a cost to all hon. Members of Parliament. The Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) and other timber companies have enough stocks to supply at a cost to hon. Members of Parliament. This is an activity we must promote. Let me take advantage of this time to inform this honourable House that those making the best efforts to plant trees will be supported. We will support tree planting at scale in view of the climate financing agreement we are about to sign. So, we are watching the hon. Members carefully as regards the various efforts they are making in their constituencies, and we want to see how we can apply this at scale.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for conveying the invitation from His Majesty. Indeed, I can confirm that His Majesty is a very keen supporter of a green economy. I am sure his invitation fits in very well with the Conference of Parties (COP) 27 agenda. That is not to say that the Member of Parliament for Luena should be included in the delegation. I am just confirming the link.

Madam Speaker, there is a young man in my constituency by the name of Aongola, who runs an outfit called Baila Malasha (Energy). He makes charcoal from rice husks and sawdust. My question to the hon. Minister is: Does the ministry have, as part of climate resilience programmes, financing packages available for innovative ideas such as this one that is running in my constituency so that they can increase the production of special charcoal which will reduce and counter deforestation activities that are widespread throughout the country and Luena is no exception?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Parliament for that important question. I wish to inform him that we receive the invitation by the Litunga with both hands. I must also confirm that I have met His Majesty and I can confirm he is very well vest in these issues and he is a concerned man.

Madam Speaker, I also want to confirm with you that the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE) has come on board to help, not only the ministry, but the whole Government and the country at large to ensure that our forests and the environment are protected. We will soon sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the BRE to manage our forests through community forest management and this is allowed under the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015. Hon. Members of Parliament will recall that twenty to thirty years ago, as the hon. Member for Lundazi alluded, our forests were not depleted. There was better forest management. We need to go back and place the same value we had twenty or thirty years ago now more so that we are at tipping climate levels.

Madam Speaker, the innovative idea of agricultural waste, to what we call charcoal briquettes, is one we are piloting with the Ministry of Technology and Science. We believe that making charcoal briquettes from agricultural waste is one way of solving the charcoal crisis. So, I want to confirm that all innovations are welcome. In fact, I think it is Amalgamated Banks of South Africa (ABSA) and the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) who supported the youthswho had innovations in this space five months ago. So, all innovations are welcome. Science is there to solve challenges of humanity.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Very interesting subject. Let us continue the conversation. However, we need to make progress.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

FARMERS ON THE VERGE OF DESTITUTION

83. Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Agriculture:

1. whether the Government is aware that most farmers who were weaned off the Farmer Input Support Programme for the 2022/2023 Farming Season, without warning, are on the verge of destitution; and
2. if so, whether there are any plans to reinstate the affected farmers on the programme.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, the ministry has been implementing the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) since 2002. For the 2022/2023 Farming Season, the Direct Input Supply (DIS)modality is being utilised. Hon. Members may wish to note that the target for the 2022/2023 Farming Season is 1,024,434 farmers. The following are the criteria in place for one to qualify:

1. you must be a member of a duly registered farmer organisation or co-operative. The co-operative or farmer organisation should have a registration certificate issued by the Department of Co-operatives under the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development or Registrar of Societies.
2. you must be a registered small-scale farmer and actively involved in farming within the camp coverage area with a field of less than 5 ha;
3. you should be cultivating not more than 5 ha;
4. you should have the capacity to pay the K400 as farmer contribution;
5. you should be a Zambian and in possession of a green National Registration Card (NRC); and
6. where possible, it is advisable for you to have an active phone number.

Madam Speaker, therefore, the House may wish to note that there are more than 3 million registered farmers in the register and this is very important to note. As such, not all the 3 million farmers can benefit from the FISP at the same time. Due to resource constraints, in addition to the rising cost of inputs, the Government can only support 1,024,434 farmers in the 2022/2023 Farming Season.

Madam Speaker, the direct answer,therefore, to the hon. Member’s question is that the Government is not aware that farmers who have been weaned off the programme are on the verge of destitution. What we know is that any farmer who has benefitted for, at least, three years, must now be able to stand on his own without the Government’s support.

Madam Speaker, there are, therefore, no immediate plans to reinstate the affected farmers on the programme. If they have been left out, there is no way they can be put back this season.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: In view of the interest that has been generated by this subject, I guide that hon. Members ask specific questions. Each hon. Member can only ask one question. Please, do not debate so that as many hon. Members as possible can ask questions.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the responses from the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, truth be told, all hon. Members of Parliament, both on your right and your left, who represent rural farmers, have similar challenges. I was in Malashi Village of Mpika yesterday and in Mkushi the other day, and the complaints are the same.

Madam Speaker, thehon. Minister will recall that he came to this august House and told us that farmers were going to deposit money on their own and this issue was brought out by the hon. Member for Bweengwa. The hon. Minister,again, came and said that he was only going to clean the registers ofthe people who were civil servants or, indeed, non-eligible beneficiaries.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister will agree that there has been no transformation to prepare the farmers he saysare ready to be graduated. No hon. Member here,both on your left and right, can say there are farmerswho are ready to graduate from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Thefarmers are at the same level and this was an inherited programme. The situation is dire. When you have sixty members–

Mr Mabeta: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You are a town MP, young man.Sit down. You wait,we explain.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker–

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu! I had guided thatwe should not debate.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kankoyo, please, do not interject.Otherwise, you will go and spend a few minutes outside.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, as the situation stands, some co-operatives have increased the number of its members to, maybe, sixty, and they are sharing about thirty-six bags. Now, people on the ground are using what they call medas(tins) to measure and share fertiliser.What urgent measure is the hon. Minister going to put in place to ensure the programme works? This matter will culminate into hunger. We are being sincere and we are speaking about what is obtaining on the ground. What is the hon. Minister able to do in the remaining time to try and cushion these farmers he thinks are ready to be graduated from the FISP, when they are not?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the programme covers one million farmers.In Zambia, we have more than three million farmers. I do not know how you would expect that there would be an immediate position to support two million farmers. This is the programme as it has been running. The truth is that one out of three or one out of four farmers will benefit from the FISP, and we are expected to pick the most vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, I repeat; some farmers have been on the FISP from 2002 to date. Honestly, why can they not leave room for others?The ones we have set aside are the ones complaining so much. In fact, as a compromise, and this is a policy position, we said that we will not isolate all the old farmers. We will try to have 80 per cent new farmers and 20 per cent old farmers so that we do not isolate the old ones. Let me repeat this. We have said that everywhere, including in Mpika, 20 per cent should be old farmers and 80 per cent new farmers. We cannot continue dealing with the same people for more than twenty years. Where is the fairness here? Let others benefit. This is free fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, when you take away a free thing from a person, he/she will not allow you to go scot-free andwill complain. It is true. I can do a 360-degree rotation,farmers countrywide are complaining, but that is the position.We want new people to also benefit.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member talked of hunger, just like my sister from Milanzi. No. There will be no hunger because the same number of farmers has been given the same quantity of fertiliser as was last year. Therefore, they will still produce.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu brought up the aspect of people sharing fertiliser in buckets. How is that issue going to be addressed? Maybe, you canaddress that issue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I am sorry, I was looking at my papers.  May I be guided again?

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu said people are now sharing fertiliser using what is called a meda, a bucket. How is that issue going to be addressed?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, when you were away, I discussed that issue at length and encouraged hon. Members here to discourage sharing fertiliser so that our productivity can increase. I used chloroquineor quinine, medicines used to treat malaria, to illustratethis point. If you are given this medicine and told to take six tablets per day to treat malaria,but you breakthe tablets and sharethem with your family, the malaria will not go away. That is what will happen in the field. Sharing fertiliser and putting it on a few grains does not do anything for our maize production. We need to put sufficient fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, let me say it this way: We are dealing with one million farmers.If theseone million farmers were to use fertiliser according to what we have defined, applied it properly, and goteven just 5 tonnes per hectare, we would get not less than 6 million metric tonnes straight. However, because farmers are sharing fertiliser, they get so little and we end up with 2.7 million metric tonnes. Few people should get fertiliser and produce adequately and only then will we get proper produce, and they can feed the others. If farmers are going to share fertiliser, theywill be sharing poverty, and there is nothing good that will come out of it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses he is providing to this honourable House.

Madam Speaker, the good people of Lubansenshi, Zambezi and Chongwe, or may I saythe good people of Zambia, who are small-scale farmers andhave been benefiting from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), have complained that they are not happy. I bring this matter before this honourable House to find a lasting solution because I believe that the Government is the people. When the people who formed the Government speak or complain, the job of the Executive is to listen to them.

Madam Speaker, how ready is the hon. Minister to facilitate an address by His Excellency the President to the nation or the farmers so that people can hear his position as he has been given the mandate to rule this country? We may continue talking about this issue but, maybe, the President has a different view. So, my question is: Is the hon. Minister able to facilitate that so that all of us, together with the people we represent, can hear from the President on how best we can help the people?

Madam Speaker, we are dealing with a very important item, which is life, and it is anchored on food. There are so many reasons and challenges that people faced as they tried to integrate these past few years and we had drought and many issues which compromised the harvest. Yes, we are dealing with a policy, but that is why we are there to provide leadership. We are here to listen to the people’s complaints and provide solutions to them at the end of the day.

Madam Speaker, let me repeat my question. How ready is the hon. Minister to facilitate an address so that the President can address the nation on this issue of farmers?

Madam Speaker: We are taking a lot of time asking questions and time is running out.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank Dr Chewe, but I would have loved if he had said exactly what he would like the President to tell the nation because each time we come here and interact, we listen and I will give a very good example of the issue raised by Hon. Michelo who said that asking individual farmers to go and deposit their contributions had created a problem. We addressed that issue and I came here and issued a statement where I said that will be no more. For those hon. Members who came to me, I told them that is no more. I told them to tell the people out there that they do not need to go and deposit their contributions as individuals. We are now accepting a member of the co-operative to deposit on their behalf and that is happening.

Madam Speaker, every time I come here, I listen and I adjust when an idea makes a lot of sense and we change because we are here for the people and not to punish them. I ask Dr Chewe to explain what he wants the President to tell the people because the President has confidence in his Ministers. Unless I have failed then I can ask the President to come and address the nation. It would be very strange for me as Minister to go and tell the President that the nation wants to hear him talk about it. I would not do it, honestly. I need to hear what exactly the hon. Member would like the President to say. Immediately I do that, I am saying I have failed.

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Mr Mtolo: Oh, come on.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: No, it is not like that. I think so far, we are working together and we are trying to develop the agriculture sector. I do not think I have failed yet so I would not do that. I am being honest unless the hon. Member tells me what he wants the President to say. I am here. I am the Minister of Agriculture. I have the mandate and I am capable, able and ready.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, please, engage the hon. Minister.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according the people of Chama North an opportunity to ask a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, I am privileged to be a member of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. When we went around the country, we were asking the farmers why they are not graduating and they said that the fertiliser which they have been given is not adequate. Does the hon. Minister not think that there was need to increase the fertiliser allocated to these farmers and then wean them off so that we do not affect food security and exacerbate poverty levels in the country?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate what Hon. Mtayachalo has said and the beauty with that is that as the Cabinet, we are listening. What that means is that the population is increasing, the numbers in society are increasing and the 350,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser that we are distributing is insufficient. I think he is asking if we can consider increasing the number of beneficiaries from one million to maybe one point five million. I think that is something which I can take to the Cabinet and we can discuss it. I accept that I can do that, not the other thing.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister of Agriculture and I have the same problem considering where we come from. The issue I want to bring to the hon. Minister’s attention is on the number of people in co-operatives. What is causing the people to share the fertiliser is that the number of people to be included in a co-operative is not limited. Hence, when you give ten packs to a co-operative with 100 people, they will share it in medas. What is the hon. Minister doing to change the co-operative law so that we limit the number of people in co-operatives? That way, if there are ten people in a co-operative, and they are given ten packs, then each and every person will collect a pack from those ten.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the point raised by the hon. Member is extremely important. If this House is a co-operative, and there are 156 of us here, and the Government says it will only give us packs for fifty-six people, we must give only fifty-six people. Immediately we say the fifty-six should share with their friends, we are disturbing the ecosystem of the agricultural programme and that is what is happening. This relates to what Hon. Mtayachalo said. As long as we do not give the three million small-scale farmers the packs, this issue of sharing will continue. However, there is another point. The pack is equivalent to a hectare and not all small-scale farmers have a hectare. Some of them have less than a hectare. So, for some, sharing is okay, but for most of them, it is a wrong thing to do which hon. Members should discourage. We should not allow the farmers to do that. We are merely spoiling the soil and creating poor harvests. I hope I have answered the question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to ask a follow-up question, but before I do that, you are most welcome. We really missed you.

Hon. Members: Why are you shy?

Laughter

Hon. Members: Do not be shy.

Mr J. E. Banda: I am not shy.

Madam –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Sorry hon. Member for Petauke Central. Hon. Member for Namwala, do you have a point of order? What is the point of order?

Mr Mapani: No, Madam Speaker, I think it was just a mistake. Otherwise, I have none.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Petauke Central continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister is aware, people have been benefiting from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) for more than ten years so they do not know that someone is supposed to graduate after three years. The good people of Petauke believe that mwaba kata pamukosialimi meaning you have brought this at gunpoint. It takes four months for farmers to prepare for the farming season. However, the hon. Minister has just said the farmers need to graduate, but they already planned to get inputs from the FISP. However, they have now been removed and there is no time. Four months from now, the rainy season would have ended. How are they going to plan now? The good people of Petauke feel the hon. Minister was supposed to give them time. Immediately after harvesting, the hon. Minister was supposed to tell them through sensitisation, but they have not seen any sensitisation –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, on the issue of the quorum, we do not have a quorum at the moment. Standing Order No. 204(2)(a) on Parliamentary Decorum and Etiquette states as follows:

“A member shall observe the following rules of parliamentary etiquette:

1. a member shall be in the House or in a meeting room a few minutes before the appointed time for commencement of the sitting of the House and after health breaks;”

It looks like we are having challenges complying with that Standing Order. I am not going to sit here and wait for hon. Members so that we form a quorum. Under the circumstances, hon. Members, you are requested to go out and call your hon. Members to come to the House. I will wait, and when you are ready, call me.

Business was suspended from1702 hours until 1705 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that most people in Petauke are farmers and they have been benefiting from the FISP for more than ten years. The hon. Minister has just informed the House that a farmer is supposed to graduate from the FISP after three years. This means that in the fourth year, he will not participate. However, the farmers in Petauke have been benefitting for more than ten years. The hon. Minister knows that schools in Petauke are in a radius of –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, ask the question because we do not have much time. I will allow two more people to ask questions. So, please, can you wind up quickly.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister never sensitised the farmers in Petauke, so that they know that they will graduate from the FISP as they are preparing for the 2022/2023 Farming Season. They were supposed to know that those who have been benefitting for more than ten years will graduate. They budgeted that they were going to receive fertiliser under the FISP but mwaba kata pamukosilomba. KuliyeFISP for those old farmers.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, it means this was done at gun point. Some farmers were removed –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Okay, let me assist the hon. Member for Petauke Central.

Hon. Minister of Agriculture, the people of Petauke Central are saying that they have been caught by surprise. They were not warned that the people who had been receiving inputs would not receive them anymore and that only new entrants would be given. So, the hon. Member for Petauke Central is wondering why you did not warn the people of Petauke Central.

The hon. Minister.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. J. E. Banda for that question and it is in order for the hon. Member to discuss like that. Probably, he was not aware, but most farmers are aware. Like I said, we are implementing the policy that as much as possible, at least, 20 per cent of the old farmers should be absorbed as we gyrate towards absorbing 80 per cent of the new farmers. In fact, let me be open that in certain areas, the ratio is even higher. It is almost 50:50, but what we want is 20:80. So, I hear the hon. Member and I assure him that we are not throwing away all the farmers. Be assured that 1,024,434 farmers will get inputs from the FISP and that figure has not changed.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Madam Speaker, first of all, I commend the New Dawn Government, through the hon. Minister of Agriculture, for screening and cleaning the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) system.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: However, I have noted a few things that need to be dealt with. In Serenje District, there is a difference in the number of packs allocated this year compared to last year and the difference is 1,177 packs. What has been allocated is 19,097 against 62,140 farmers.My simple question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture is: Is he considering sending supplementary packs to farmers in districts like Serenje, who have a seen a reduction since he has consistently said that nothing has changed. Further, the same number of packs that was allocated last year and previously is the same number allocated this year. However, in Serenje, there is a difference and this has severely impacted on the people.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, before I answer that question, allow me to correct a very serious error which I made when I was talking about the hon. Member for Mpika, I actually meant the hon. Member for Isoka. She is the one who had raised that very important question. So, my apologies for referring to the hon. Member for Mpika instead of the hon. Member for Isoka.

Madam Speaker, coming to the question, I will be very sincere that for this season, it is not possible to change that figure. So, let us just work within that figure and see what happens. However, going forward, we want to make sure that we really reach out to the people who are really vulnerable and in certain areas, which are getting quite some huge portions – let me give an example of an hon. Colleague of mine who will not be angry with me. For example, Mpongwe is very rich in agriculture and the people there are stronger financially and they cannot be compared, for example, to those in Chipata Central, my own constituency. So, as we move forward, we want to take away from those areas which are already in an advantaged position and give to those areas which are disadvantaged. That is for the future, but not this season.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you, once more, for giving me this opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture a question.

Madam Speaker, we are grateful for the answers the hon. Minister has been giving. This is the spirit that he should always put before the nation; providing answers that satisfy the good people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister has heard that, indeed, the Zambian farmers have complained and they have a point in saying that the Government did not sensitise them that they would be removed from the FISP, is he able now to come up with an immediate measure to answer their concerns between now and December?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, henceforth, I will make copies of the FISP manual and give all hon. Members. This is because in the manual, it is clearly indicated that a farmer should graduate after three years. So, for now, it is not possible to adjust the figures. The figures are as they are and the fertiliser is being delivered and we cannot change now. It is not possible, not even coming up with a supplementary budget unless of course, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, is able to consider that. Maybe, that can be possible. Otherwise, as to what we are doing, I would not like to confuse my very good friend. It is simply not possible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: My sincere apologies to those who have indicated, but because of time, we are not able to accommodate all the questions. However, let us continue discussing with the hon. Minister of Agriculture. We have three Votes that we need to look at today. So, the Clerk will now read the order of the day.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1^ST JANUARY, 2023 TO 31^ST DECEMBER, 2023.

VOTE 03 – (National Assembly of Zambia – K833,765,426)

Vote 03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – K199,342,774)

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to present the 2023 Budget for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). The ECZ is an autonomous constitutional body established under Article 229 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia. Since its establishment, the commission has successfully conducted creditable elections as follows:

1. six general elections in 1996, 2001, 2006, 2011, 2016 and 2021;
2. two Presidential elections in 2008 and 2015; and
3. several National Assembly and Local Government by-elections and a referendum.

Madam Chairperson, Article 299 of the Constitution mandates the commission to carry out the following constitutional functions:

1. implement the electoral process;
2. conduct elections and referenda;
3. register voters;
4. settle minor electoral disputes as prescribed;
5. regulate the conduct of voters and candidates;
6. accredit observers and election agents as prescribed;
7. delimit electoral boundaries; and
8. perform such other functions as prescribed.

Further, Madam Chairperson, the Electoral Process Act, No.35 of 2016, empowers the commission to perform the following statutory functions:

1. to make regulations providing for the registration of voters and for the manner of conducting elections;
2. to constitute conflict management committees and appoint conflict management officers for purposes of resolving electoral disputes;
3. to administer and enforce the Electoral Process Act and the Electoral Code of Conduct;
4. to correct mistakes committed by electoral officers in the tabulation of results within seven days of the declaration of such results;
5. to disqualify a political party or candidate in breach of the code; and
6. to provide voter education.

Madam Chairperson, the commission’s vision is to be a model electoral management body that meets the aspirations of the Zambian people. The commission’s vision provides a clear sense of direction and responsibility for the institution in the eyes of its many local and international stakeholders.

Madam Chairperson, the mission statement for the ECZ is to effectively manage the electoral process to deliver credible elections. The commission’s mission statement expresses the fundamental purpose for its existence and provides a framework within which it operates and contributes to the democratic governance of this country.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to look at the overview of the 2022 operations. During 2022, the commission launched the continuous registration of voters in all the ten provincial centres and conducted a number of by-elections. In this vein, the commission has, to date, successfully conducted the following:

1. continuous registration of voters in all the ten provincial centres;
2. registered, so far, a total of 10,493 new registrations; and
3. three National Assembly, one mayoral, one council chairperson and six councillors’ by-elections.

Madam Chairperson, in the process of conducting these various elections, the commission carried out voter education, engaged in conflict management activities and other applicable statutory and constitutional functions.

Madam Chairperson, during 2022, the commission recorded an unprecedented 85 per cent funding towards the 2022 appropriated budget. This funding is to enable the commission to carry out its programmes and sub-programmes as planned.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to go to the 2023 budget estimates. The electoral commission’s budget estimates for 2023 stands at K199,342,774 and are centred on the strategic focus areas of its 2018 to 2022 Strategic Plan as follows:

1. to enhance efficiency in the management of elections through effective implementation of the electoral process;
2. to enhance stakeholder confidence and participation in the electoral process through regular engagement and other earnest programmes;
3. to enhance the commission’s corporate image through the implementation of programmes aimed at improving stakeholder relations; and
4. to continuously enhance skills, systems, governance and management structures to achieve operational efficiency and effectiveness.

Madam Chairperson, the budgeted estimates before the House will enable the electoral commission to undertake programmes and sub-programmes necessary to achieve the foregoing strategic objectives as well as deliver the provisions under pillar four of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) that promotes good governance environment.

Madam Chairperson, the following are the main programmes and sub-programmes that the commission expects to carry out during 2023:

1. to undertake the continuous registration of voters in all the ten provincial centres across the country;
2. to capture new voters and provide for transfers and replacement of lost voters’ cards in accordance with Section 7 of the Electoral Process Act, No.35 of 2016, and Article 229 of the Constitution;
3. to decentralise to all the ten provinces in 2023, as stipulated in the Republican Constitution, and, in line with the Government’s agenda, to take the services closer to the people. This will enhance efficiency in the implementation of the electoral process;
4. to intensify targeted stakeholder engagement, enhance stakeholder participation and confidence with particular focus on grassroot communities;
5. to enhance corporate image building through various initiatives, including innovative use of digital communication technology, ensure that the commission is present at national and local events to conduct publicity and voter education activities;
6. to review electoral laws and procedures in order to harmonise them with the Republican Constitution and enhance efficiency and effectiveness of the electoral processes; and
7. to conduct by-elections which may arise due to various causes as outlined in the law.

Madam Chairperson, these programmes are critical in the conformity with the commission’s mandate as provided for by the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I now seek the support of the House in approving the commission’s budget.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I have received a list from the Patriotic Front (PF) Whip of hon. Members to debate, but I have none from the right and from independent hon. Members. So, we will just follow what is there. Maybe, tomorrow, the two groups will organise something.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to make a few comments on the policy statement delivered by the Acting Leader of Government in the House, who is seeking support from the House to approve the estimates of expenditure for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Madam Chairperson, let me, first of all, take this opportunity, because I did not have it last year, to commend the commission for managing to conduct the general elections last year under very difficult circumstances due to the challenge of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) that we experienced.

Madam Chairperson, we should appreciate the role of this critical institution in our country. Indeed, as per its mandate, this institution is supposed to promote democratic processes, obviously, by conducting various activities as stipulated in Article 29 (2).

Madam Chairperson, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House spoke about improving the corporate image and also good governance. We are appropriating resources to this very important institution and, our concern, which we are registering to the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, is that it is headless as we speak. The constitutional office bearers who are supposed to be accountable for these resources that we are appropriating to that institution are not there. The Chairperson, the Vice-Chairperson and the Chief Executive Officer (CEO), whose function it is to ensure that these resources we are appropriating are accounted for and applied for the budget activity lines that we are approving are done in accordance with the Public Financial Act, are not yet in place.

Madam Chairperson, we request the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to ensure that he conveys the message to the appointing authority that these positions be filled without delay. Otherwise, these resources we are appropriating will not be accounted for by those who are temporarily holding these positions. The positions of commissioners have also not yet been filled. So, we want the appointing authority to ensure that these positions are filled as we appropriate funds because we are able to hold this institution accountable through those officer bearers. Yes, this institution is like a referee in a football game. The officers will not stay away from being bombarded because where there is competition, people air their grievances be it victors or losers. However, their role should be above board.

Madam Chairperson, the recent happenings have gotten the citizens concerned. This institution’s public perception and public confidence must not be doubted. We want the funds appropriated to be used for activities. We have seen the ambitions of the institution and it wants to pilot the electronic voting (e-voting) process, for example. These are ambitious ideas, but if people lack confidence in this institution, it will be very difficult for it to implement these ambitious programmes it has come up with.

Madam Chairperson, we are appropriating money for printing of ballot papers for by-elections that may take place. What justification does an institution which knows its mandate have to utilise outdated ballot papers because the dates of any ballot, which we are budgeting for here, must be valid. There is no way you can use ballot papers for January in December. How?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: The expiry of anything is tied to a date. So, this money we are giving to this institution must be used appropriately because that could be wasteful expenditure. If that is challenged and the challenge is successful in the courts of law, how do you consider that? It is a wasteful expenditure because you will still go back to print new ballot papers. So, what we are saying is that the institution should ensure that it applies these funds accordingly. If there is a by-election, it should make sure it prints ballot papers in real time so that citizens do not doubt. These are straightforward things that we are not supposed to be even debating. So, for us, we were there and we are here. We cannot point fingers at the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) because that is its role.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You can question, but I am telling you. You are there now, but you will not be there forever. So, this institution must out live all of us. The bottom line is that this institution must outlive all of us. There are veterans there (pointing at the Government Bench) who have been here (Opposition Bench), there (pointing at the Back Bench), and I am looking at them.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: They are still here. So, this institution must outlive the politics.

Mr Mwene: You abused the police.

Mr Kampyongo: Just shut up.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members! Can we give him room to debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, all I am saying is that we must place a premium on this institution. This institution has to grow the democracy that we have chosen for ourselves. It is very important. When we start having doubts, we start having a cloud on the democracy that we have chosen for ourselves. So, as we appropriate funds, we request that the vacancies at this institution be filled up so that we can hold the officers accountable. I do not think there is someone that is competent enough to deal with the audit queries that will come out of there. So, Parliament will be waiting for the names to be ratified. More importantly, we want this institution to be anchored on the rule of law. It should ensure that it follows all the laws. It should not start interpreting the law. That is the mandate of the courts.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, your time has expired.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving the people of Chienge this opportunity.

Madam Chairperson, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is an institution which everyone expects to be independent like the way I am an independent Member of Parliament. I believe when we say it is independent, it should somehow be like a pendulum. It should not be one sided.

Madam Chairperson, we are giving this money to the ECZ to function and perform effectively. I must express my disappointment when I heard the ECZ making an announcement which was supposed to be done by the courts of law. When we came to this place, we lifted the Bible and said our allegiance is to the President and we shall defend the Constitution and uphold it. We did that and it is quite painful to see the assault being done to our Constitution. I hope the institution will improve next time because if it cannot conduct a credible election, it is quite worrying, especially for us who are independents. We are now worried. How are we going to be helped in 2026 when this institution which was once trusted is now like a political tool.

Madam Chairperson, without fear or favour, we have seen other institutions like the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services being used as a political tool before and doing things during elections. This must come to an end. Zambia is bigger than the ECZ. We need our Constitution to be upheld. No matter what, show us the integrity. This money is for the Zambians. We are tax payers. So, it is not any political party’s money. We expect the people at the helm of leadership at the ECZ to do the right thing.

Madam Chairperson, Madam Speaker talked about what she saw in Rwanda and those who went with her and I can attest to that. If only the whole country can be watchful. Institutions like the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the ECZ should just follow what the Constitution says and should not do things that upset the Zambians. We expect better from the ECZ. I have seen that in today’s newspaper, there is a notice that the ballot papers have arrived in Zambia for the by-elections in Mkushi and the other places. That is what is expected. However, in the by-elections that were in Kabushi and Kwacha, there was drama, and the international community is laughing at us. Zambia is an icon of peace and democracy.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, some people can question because they do not understand. It is always a woman who suffers when there is war. It is the elections that bring civil war in any country. So, we are entrusting our lives in the ECZ. We do not expect it to behave the way it has been behaving of late. We are people of Zambia and are mothers. On behalf of all the mothers, it should listen to us. It should do its job the way it is supposed to be done and not what has been happening. I hope we will see more notices when ballot papers arrive in the country, as it was done. We need transparency.

Madam Chairperson, as I talk about the ECZ, I would like to find out more on the pilot projects such as the electronic voting. One of the issues I have been talking about is that we, in Chienge, struggle with internet. Even during the registration of voters, most people were left out because the machines could not work properly. So, as the ECZ embarks on these pilot projects, it should consider the rural areas.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Can we have order on my right. There are too many loud voices coming from the last bench disturbing the debate on the Floor.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I was talking about piloting of the Electronic VotingProject. I am not against it because it is part of development. Things are changing; we are now in the digital world. However, I have a problem with e-voting. Not until the people of Chienge have proper network, can we talk about this. Otherwise, people in rural areas will be deprived of their constitutional right to vote. So, as the commission undertakes the pilot project, it should not focus on the peri-urban or urban areas, but on the rural areas so it can see how we are suffering because of internet difficulties. After that has been fixed, all of us, as Zambians, will be happy and we will all say the project is progressive and it can be implemented. This is our money. It is not personal money, and it belongs to the people of Zambia. So, whatever is being done should be done in the best interest of all Zambians, especially the people of Chienge. If we have everything in place and with early and much sensitisation of what has to be done, people will be aware of what is supposed to take place by the time we reach 2026. We do not want the sensitisations they do on radio three weeks before elections. That is not sensitisation. Otherwise, I support this budget line.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the time accorded to the people of Mwembezhi to discuss the budget of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Madam Chairperson, the commission is very important to the people of Mwembezhi because the constituency is very big. The commission has been given money to do delimitation and we expect this delimitation to take place. If we do not do delimitation, just as we did not do it in the ten years that elapsed, then we will be liable for constitutional breech because every ten years we are supposed to do delimitation. If we continue leaving out some constituencies like mine, which are so big with a large population but with one district such that even the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which is given becomes so little, we will be breeching the Constitution. So, if delimitation is done, three constituencies will be produced out of Mwembezhi then we will multiply 28.3 by three and this will make the people of Mwembezhi very happy. However, this idea of not carrying out delimitation and continuing with the things we worked with in the past is disadvantaging some constituencies. It is my view that the ECZ is listening to what I am saying and it shall do delimitation, especially in Mwembezhi as it has been given the money as indicated in the Yellow Book.

Madam Chairperson, the continuous voter registration is very important and it is timely in that it will start in 2023. The things which we saw – Yes, numbers do not lie, but if you do not calculate the numbers properly, you will get a wrong figure because you have computed garbage in and garbage out. I am talking about continuous registration and some people were very happy that they registered massively in their strongholds. They danced and said they had the numbers and that even if people voted the way they vote, they would wallop the others because they had registered more numbers. In our areas like, the North-Western Province, the Western Province, Central Province and the Southern Province, we were asking them to do registration but their answer was that the paper had finished or that they would start later. In our areas, registration started just before the elections, but what happened? They were saying they had registered many voters and given out National registration Cards (NRCs) and that the ECZ would have more numbers, but the same numbers voted them upside down and they were out of power; that is why they are that side.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, we do not want to be told lies by the ECZ that we are giving you numbers in Central Province, no. We are very transparent. We want the ECZ to start voter registration from where the Chief Whip actually comes from.

Mr Anakoka: Which whip?

Mr Jamba: Hon. Member, we do not discuss ourselves here.

Laughter

Mr Jamba: I am talking about the Whip of the Opposition. The ECZ should go to his constituency and should start e-registration and it should make sure that people in the whole country are registered. It should also register people in Luapula, Chienge, Shangombo and Mangango. This idea of selecting places and doing a pilot project in Matero, in Lusaka, where there is network and electricity is not good. The commission should do a pilot project in Shangombo where there is no tower. We want to see how that will work because there are also voters in that area. So, if those things are not there, the commission should work with the Ministry of Technology and Science so that the towers are distributed around the country and everyone is registered. This idea of segregative registration is not welcome.

Yes, we know you are the referee standing there, you are not be happy to see people crying the way they cried last time, no. We want you to see people the way we are here enjoying. We should also enjoy and be happy in 2026, 2031 and 2051. Therefore, the commission should continue with the e-registration exercise and it should not discriminate. If it wants, it should come and start from Mwembezhi then it can expand to other areas.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say that the ECZ should enhance e-voting. We want a system where immediately you vote and you have a phone or laptop, you should be able to see that the numbers are changing. We want to be seeing numbers changing and not the idea of saying no, wait we are still adding or waiting for other results or the centre at Mulungushi is not ready. Then you see people trying to gate crush into the centre as you wait since they said they are still adding. It should not be like that. This is a world of technology. We want to make the system such that if I am seated in my house in Mwembezhi, then later I go to vote, when I check just after voting, the number should have changed. This will help those who are losing to see for themselves how the numbers are dropping. Meanwhile us, who are in power, will be seeing numbers increasing because we are here to stay for fifty years. We want this thing to work that is why the money has been given.

Therefore, the idea of waiting should end and the ECZ should not wait for political pronouncements. It is an autonomous body. It cannot be waiting for people to tell it to start registration. We have given it the money and this House is mandated to appropriate money. When we appropriate this money, the ECZ should not sit and wait for Mr Jamba to give it instructions to start registering voters. No, it should not do that. That is why we are here to appropriate this money and we want to see the commission working, and it should do just that. We do not want stories.

Madam Chairperson, if you cannot talk about your past, or do not know your history, then you do not know where you are going. Some people think that everyone is a thief. If you are a thief, you think everyone is a thief. The Government has shown willingness to let people work autonomously, but there are people who were using underhand methods. They think what happened in Kabushi and Kwacha was a result of underhand methods. There are no underhand methods. We are very clean. However, there are people who were using underhand methods. So, they think we are also doing the same, no.

Madam Chairperson, the ECZ should continue on the same trajectory. When it announces an election, everyone should abide. It should stand on firm ground because it is an autonomous body, just like this Parliament.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House requested us to support the appropriation of K199 million for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). Indeed, this House is responsible for doing so, so it has to do it. To be very honest, I would be doing so with a very heavy heart considering the recent occurrences. The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House should remind the ECZ that one of its objectives is to enhance stakeholder’s confidence. He should ask the commission if it thinks the outcome in Kabushi and Kwacha has created confidence on its part. Ask it whether the violence that the United Party for National Development (UPND) perpetrated during nominations in Central Province and Lusangazi has created confidence. Ask the ECZ whether the arrest of the campaign team in Chingola has created confidence. Ask them whether it is happy with the violence in Mwense perpetrated by the UPND.

Madam Chairperson, Mr Kampyongo stated that the ballot papers, which were used in Kabushi and Kwacha, were invalid. How then do you expect the Patriotic Front (PF) party, which believes in the rule of law to acceptthe outcome of an election–

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Please, do not exchange words. Somebody is debating, and he is debating through the Chairperson. Can we have order!

Ms Tambatamba pointed at Mr Kafwaya.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security!

Mr Kafwaya, you may continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Thank you so much. You are very protective, Madam.

Madam Chairperson, I heard that the PF walked out, but President Edgar Lungu who was elected on a valid ballot paper, ...

Hon. Government Members: Former, former!

Mr Kafwaya:...was not recognised by so many–

The Chairperson: Mr Kafwaya, you will confuse Zambians, especially those in rural areas. Let us use the phrases correctly. Please, withdraw that phrase. Let us be mindful of the way we use certain phrases, so that we avoid confusing the people. Correct what you said.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, the sixth President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Edgar Lungu, was not recognised by many people for so many years even though he was elected ona valid ballot paper. We know there are people who have been elected using invalid ballot papers. So, how do you hope for us to accept the process? It is a simple question. The ballot paper was invalid, it delivered a product, and the product must be accepted. Should we be laughing? We are not going to be part of the people who are entrenching illegality.

Mr Kambita: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: We will not be part of those who are comfortable with wrong things happening in our country.

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, the ECZ needs to be supported by all of us here, and in supporting it, we need to urge it to –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

I am hearing points of order from about five voices. Is it possible to indicate on the gadget, if you have a point of order because I am hearing different voices?

Mr Jamba rose.

Rev. Katuta:Sit down!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Who is indicating for a point of order?

Hon. Government Members: Jamba!

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, I was reluctantly listening to my very good brother, trying to–

Interruptions

Mr Jamba: I am raising this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65.

Madam Chairperson, my brother is debating in all directions instead of debating the Vote that is on the Floor.He has talked about invalidility(invalidity) and other things, which are not even relevant to this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, how can he continue–

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members on my left!

Mr Mukosa: Is he in order to say invalidility?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba, you may continue.

Mr Jamba: He cannot say the ballot paper was invalid when hon. Members are legitimately seated here. What does he mean by saying the ballot paper was invalid?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson, because this person is misleading the nation that there are no hon. Members in Kwacha Constituency and Kabushi Constituency.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I will not get into the details of what the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is supposed to do because that is not my role.

Hon. Member on the Floor, it is very important that you debate the Budget but you are bringing in issues connected to the ECZ. You are using that to bring in your own viewson the Floor of this House, but avoid misleading the people. I really do not know, and it is very difficult for me to say whether the ballot papers were invalid.

Hon. Opposition Member: No!

The Chairperson: They were used, and hon. Members of Parliament were elected from that election.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: So, it is very difficult for me to agree that the ballot papers were invalid because there was a by-election and people voted.

Interruptions

The Chairperson:Let us stick to the Vote that is before us so that we do not mislead the people. If you want to bring that issue forward, put it in another way so that the people out there can also understand what you are trying to say. If you directlysay the ballots were invalid, then the people out there will either say yes or no. You can bring out what you thinking nicely on the Floor of the House to describe what you have talked about. So, with that guide, the hon. Member will continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, on 21^st October, 2022, there were elections in Kabushi and Kwacha and the ballot papers which were used were dated 15^th September, 2022, and were invalid on that basis.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, the ECZ must ensure that the rules of the game are adhered to and it must allow the candidates who wish to withdraw to do so.

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Chairperson, I would like to cite Standing Order No. 65, on relevance of speech. In addition to that, I would like to find out from you whether the hon. Member who is debating is in order to proceed on that trajectory challenging the Speaker’s ruling in his discourse. I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, let us not waste time. When an hon. Member is guided, he/she is supposed to follow the guidance. We still have another Vote that we are supposed to clear today. Hon. Members cannot keep on ignoring guidance from the Presiding Officers and I clearly indicated that the hon. Member finds another word.

Hon. Member, you mentioned that the dates differed with the dates on the ground. It is better you use another word, but you said invalid, and I think it has a different meaning. However, you can say, in simple terms, that the elections were held on such and such a day, but people used ballot papers with a different date. With that guidance, let us not be stuck on one issue.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much –

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

The Chairperson: I have not yet finished. Sorry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, let us not waste time arguing over a very simple thing. I had directed Hon. Kafwaya to replace that word and find a suitable word for the sake of the people who are listening to this debate, but he repeated it. Is it possible to avoid using that word so that we make progress because we are now stuck? Can you, please, find a suitable word so that we move forward.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, let me say that a ballot paper dated 15^th used on the 21^st is not valid to me. It may be valid to the UPND. So, I will proceed.

Madam Chairperson, the ECZ should allow the rules of the game to be applied as is. When somebody wants to withdraw, like those colleagues in Kabushi and Kwacha, the returning officer should not run away from receiving a resignation. Somebody wanted to abandon the election on account of intimidation by the UPND and then the returning officer, who is the referee, ran away. Somebody was given a letter and he went and threw it in the car. What type of a referee is this and this is the question we should ask?

Madam Chairperson, even though I support this K199 million, these acts are unfair and have the potential to cause anarchy in the nation. The ECZ has the potential to set this country ablaze as well as to enhance the peace that this country has enjoyed. That is my point. Let the ECZ concentrate on building the nation. Let it stop interpreting the laws and it should instead implement the laws.

Madam Chairperson, contenders withdrew, but which provision allows a contender who withdraws to come back in the race? Which law?

Ms Phiri: Illegal!

Mr Kafwaya: You reinstate the withdrawer and the ECZ is happy to go ahead.

Madam Chairperson, you may want to support this process, but what I am saying is that the Zambian people out there – by ‘you’, Madam, I do not mean you, Madam Chairperson, I mean those who are supporting the process. The people out there will tell you that instead of enhancing stakeholder confidence, in fact, the opposite is happening.

Mr Mwene: On point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwene: Madam Chairperson, I stand on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. Our brother has been very well guided. We are all surprised that instead of debating the Vote for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mwene: Instead of debating the Vote for the ECZ for the 2023 Budget, the hon. Member in this House, who I have seen is the aspiring President for the Patriotic Front (PF) party, is busy giving an account of what happened in some constituencies in 2022. Is he in order to keep on giving an account like he has been sent by some individuals to come on the Floor of this House …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mwene: … and give an account of what transpired and show that it was not a good view? Is an aspiring President like him in order to do that?

Hon. Government Members: To waste our time!

Mr Mwene: I need your serious ruling because the hon. Member has been in this House for a longer period of time.

The Chairperson: Order!

The essence of a debate is to bring out issues or your own views. Right now, we are looking at Vote 05 for the ECZ and all the activities that are done by this commission.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members can bring out views or issues they feel are relevant to the commission so long as whatever they are saying is tied to the ECZ. So, hon. Members, can we allow Mr Kafwaya to wind up his debate so that we move forward.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I am grateful for your ruling that I am in order to continue appreciating the work of the ECZ, and I forgive my hon. Colleague for wasting the House’s time.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I support the appropriation of K199 million to the ECZ and request that the Leader of Government Business in the House requests the ECZ to go and read and understand its objectives and apply these resources to enhance the possibility of achieving its objectives as it endeavours to sustain the peace of this country by conducting credible elections.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Luena an opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is the custodian of our democracy. Therefore, the people of Luena fully support the proposed estimates of K199 million, allocated to it.

Madam Chairperson, this budget is for 2023, but clearly, some of the hon. Members would like to spend more time talking about what happened in 2022. For the benefit of those who might not be aware, let me extend congratulations from the people of Luena to the two hon. Members who joined us out of the Kabushi and Kwacha by-elections.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Chairperson, they came here after a process which was fully compliant with the laws of this country. If the ECZ committed any lawlessness, the hon. Members on the left must be the last ones to talk about lawlessness being committed by the ECZ. During all the elections and even in the runup to the 2021 General Elections, we, on this side, had serious challenges with the way the ECZ conducted itself. I congratulate the President for taking his time in order to ensure that the commissioners appointed to head this institution –

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing me to rise on this very important point of order, pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to mislead the nation and you have just counselled the previous speaker? Is he in order to mislead the nation that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has not been handling the elections well? If the ECZ was behaving the way it is behaving now, the United Party for National Development (UPND) would not have come into power.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: The Patriotic Front (PF) would not have come into power or got power from the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). All along the ECZ has been credible. It is now that it is misbehaving.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor –

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Katuta, can you please withdraw the word “misbehaving” and replace it with a better word.

Rev. Katuta: Thank you so much. The speaker on the Floor referred to the people on the left. I am on the left and that is why I have raised a point of order. If the ECZ was underperforming or was politically inclined to a political party, the PF would not have got power from MMD. Even for the UPND to come into power, the same ECZ enabled that.

Madam Chairperson, the question is: Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to mislead the nation that this is how the ECZ was behaving? He is misleading the nation and you have just warned us about misleading the nation.

The Chairperson: Thank you, Ms Katuta. To me, you are now raising a question because you even clearly indicated that my question is rather than raising a point of order, seeking the opinion of the Presiding Officer to rule on your matter. You have asked the Presiding Officer a question, which the Presiding Officer cannot answer.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Next time, put it in a way that it is a point of order so that you get a ruling out of your point of order.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Chairperson, the ECZ has been given the opportunity and the authority to exercise its mandate without interference from the Executive for once in its life.

Madam Chairperson, it is the same ECZ that presided over the Luangwa by-election and who won it?

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Anakoka: It is the same ECZ that presided over the Kaumbwe election and who won it?

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Anakoka: It is the same ECZ that presided over the Lusangazi by-election and who won it?

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Anakoka: It is the same ECZ that presided over the Kabushi and Kwacha by-elections and who won it?

The Chairperson: Order!

Can we have some order! This is not a question and answer session.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You are supposed to debate through the Chair. You do not need to get answers in your debate. You can continue.

Mr Anakoka: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for your guidance.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Luena are looking forward to the delimitation of constituencies that will be done in 2023. That said, they are aware that the delimitation report that was done previously had some hidden motives behind it and they request that the exercise be revisited. I can see that the ECZ has identified fifteen constituencies for delimitation. The people of Luena through their representative would like to have a look at that report so that they can make their fresh input into that process in order to ensure that even their constituency, which is very big, can also be given an opportunity to be delimitated. If delimitation will take place, they would like to indicate whether they would like Luena Constituency to also be delimitated.

Madam Chairperson, I note that the ECZ is looking at introducing e-voting and it is suggesting that this will enable the diaspora to also vote. I suggest that even without e-voting, diaspora voting could have still been implemented. In fact, this is something we were calling for when we were in the Opposition. Therefore, an opportunity to implement such a progressive idea is coming our way in 2023 and we encourage the ECZ as it does so.

Madam Chairperson, the continuous voter registration that the ECZ is currently undertaking is a very welcome move. For some reason, previously, every time we asked the ECZ to implement continuous voter registration which was already part of its mandate, it had all sorts of excuses. The Executive did not want to provide resources for reasons best known to it. I note that from this continuous voter registration, the ECZ is targeting an extra one million voters for the 2026 General elections. Regarding the extra one million voters, we on this side will make sure that we move from 2.8 million to 3.8 million.

Hon. Government Member: Exactly!

Mr Anakoka: As for those who do not want to support continuous voter registration, they will move from 1.8 million to –

Hon. Government Member: 700.

Mr Anakoka: Thank you very much. However, I urge the ECZ to reconsider continuous voter registration and extend it to the district centres as well. In some provinces, the distance from the farthest district to the provincial centre is prohibitive and, therefore, the people are not taking full advantage of the continuous voter registration. So, I appeal to the Leader of Government Business in the House to communicate this to the ECZ.

Madam Chairperson, the elections that are currently going on are under the watchful eye of the ECZ. It is not fair for people to put the blame on the ECZ, if we, as citizens, and participants in the electoral process or electoral protagonists, cannot tame our cadres. For example, as regards the Kabushi and Kwacha by-elections, the ECZ followed through every pronouncement by the court. The court stayed the elections and that was after the ballot papers were printed. When the stay was lifted, the ECZ proceeded to hold the elections. It is, therefore, disingenuous for anyone to suggest that the date on the ballot papers was invalid. If anyone has a problem with how the two new hon. Members were elected, they know where to go to contest that and certainly not on the Floor of this House.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Luena support this Vote and wish the ECZ will continue to play their refereeing role in the electoral processes that will take place in 2023 and beyond.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, it is our standard practice and hon. Members have a privilege to represent their people. When any hon. Member here stands up to tender a discourse, he/she does so in representation of his/her people.

Madam Chairperson, I stood here, on this platform which you provided for me to represent the people of Lunte, and tendered a discourse to the House in view of what I consider as legitimate and illegitimate, in terms of the electoral process which happened in Kwacha and Kabushi.

Madam Chairperson, following your guidance, I stated that, maybe, to the UPND Government, a ballot paper which is used on the 21^st, but dated 15^th is okay

Madam Chairperson, is my hon. Colleague in order to insinuate that I have no right to state the facts as I see them?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, what Standing Order have been breached?

Mr Kafwaya: Privilege, Madam. The standard practice is my privilege.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I think this is a straight forward issue and all hon. Members in this House are privileged or free to debate without any restrictions. We are here for the sake of the people and we were sent here to represent them. So, each of you can debate using your own views, as long as you stick to the Standing Orders, so as to not mislead the nation. So, hon. Member, you were given an opportunity and you debated.

Hon. Members, with that guide, can we move forward and instead of allowing two hon. Members to debate, I will now give chance to one hon. Member to debate.

The hon. Minister of Health.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much –

The Chairperson: Sorry, hon. Minister, I forgot that I had earlier called on Dr Chilufya. I will consider you after him.

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Madam Chairperson, Zambia is a democratic state and it is governed and guided by the supreme law of the land, the Constitution, and our democracy is only solid as our institutions of governance. So, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is one such strategic institution and it forms part of the very fabric of our democracy.

Madam Chairperson, the ECZ has an inescapable responsibility to discharge its function in line with the Constitution provisions and it is very important that it receives feedback. It pauses, introspects and checks if its conduct is in line with the mandate that, we, the people of Zambia, gave it.

Madam Chairperson, I am emphasising this because the erosion of public confidence in the ECZ must be addressed. The ECZ must listen and introspect and find out if its conduct was in line with the mandate it has been charged to discharge.

Madam Chairperson, I must emphasise that in 2015, Parliament made amendments to the Constitution and it enshrined the autonomy to the operations of commissions and the ECZ’s independence, operations and functions are enshrined in Article 216 of the Constitution of Zambia. Further, Article 238 only talks about it associating with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in terms of resources.

Madam Chairperson, today, the ECZ must consider the following feedback from key stakeholders and I will just pick three.

Madam Chairperson, firstly, on page twenty-five, there is a dissenting judgment by the honourable Judge of the Constitution Court of Zambia, Judge Mugeni Siwale Mulenga, who stated that the conduct of the institution which is tasked to manage elections in the country is unacceptable and has the potential to breed anarchy and chaos in the electoral system. You can find this on page twenty-five of the dissenting judgment in the case where Isaac Mwanza and Peter Sinkamba took the ECZ to court in clause 2022/ECZ.

Madam Chairperson, the second portion of feedback that the ECZ must consider seriously is in the press statement by the Transparency International Zambia, yesterday, and I will just quote one paragraph.

“The ECZ has failed to meet the aspirations of the people with respect in which they conducted the elections in Kabushi and Kwacha.”

Madam Chairperson, the churches monitoring group equally expressed its concerns. Apalenkomailanondoninshipaliubulema says the Bemba adage. When people speak, there is a problem.

Madam Chairperson, I support the appropriation of K199 million to the ECZ, provided that it realigns and ensures that it recognises that the power it has it holds it in trust for the people of this country and it has the capacity to dent the democracy of this country. So, we must encourage the ECZ to continue doing what it is doing in terms of managing elections, but in line with the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude very quickly by stating that all the functions and activities the ECZ has planned for in the year 2023, such as the continuous registration of voters and conducting elections are valid. This Parliament has an obligation to support the ECZ because it manages elections which are a very important tenet to our democracy. I support the budget, taking those views into consideration.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Chairperson, this is an important Vote and it is important that the voice of women is also heard, looking at the few number of women in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I support this Vote and I will talk about some of the programmes that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) wants to conduct in 2023. The first one, which is very important, is the registration of voters, and the commission has earmarked to register one million new voters. In this regard, I want to say that I hope that my colleague, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, will work hard to ensure that the issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs) is improved, considering that in the past years, we noted that there was segregation when it came to the issuance of NRCs.

Madam Chairperson, you will recall that one would not qualify to register as a voter, unless one had an NRC. I want to say that, unfortunately in Zambia, many Zambians do not have NRCs because of the manner in which they were issued in the past. It was very political. Unfortunately, we also heard that in some areas, people got NRCs when they did not qualify. I hope the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security will look at the issue of fake NRCs that were issued in the past years, and get the true Zambians to get NRCs and be registered as voters.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue of interest to me is voter education. I really support this and I am very happy that a good amount of resources have been allocated for education of voters because this is really cardinal. In the past, one must have noted that in most cases, there was a low turnout during elections, especially by-elections. This is mainly because sometimes the people do not know or appreciate the importance of voting. So, with the ECZ going out there to educate the voters on the need and importance of voting, we hope we will see an increase in voter turnout, not just during general elections, but even when there are by-elections, for example, the case of Kabushi, where people did not see the need to go and vote. So, we feel that should not be the case.

Madam Chairperson, voter education is also important because a number of people do not know how to really vote, especially new voters and very old voters, but of age. Sometimes, one loses, not because one has lost, but a number of his/her votes were not counted on account of people not having voted carefully or not knowing how to vote.

Madam Chairperson, this is a very important exercise and I am happy that the New Dawn Government is putting more emphasis on programmes that really enhance democracy. What is democracy? Democracy is ensuring that the process of elections is given the necessary resources that it needs. We saw in the past that monies were only given when the election was due and then you would start panicking and there were double standards of conducting things and so on and so forth.

Madam Chairperson, it is good that the New Dawn Government has started by ensuring that it allocates resources to at least make a difference. Hopefully, the will of the people will be respected because an election is not an event, but a process. When you talk of an election and you say it was free and fair, it must not be because of the final day of the election. It has to start from now. So, I am very happy that the Government is addressing key issues right from the word go.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of delimitation, I note that before the last election, the ECZ came up with the delimitation of constituencies, wards and even polling districts. I think this a very important exercise because a number of districts and constituencies are still very large and people are still underrepresented, and such a case is Chongwe. Chongwe is such a vast district and constituency at the same time, with twenty-one wards and 135 polling districts, and even those polling districts are not sufficient, and people still walk long distances.So, I am happy that this exercise is starting and that we are not doing these things like they were done in the past. We saw, in the past, that these exercises would only be done towards the end. This Administration, however, has started from the word go, which is good. I am sure that it will do the exercise this year, next year until the final year. That means that by the time we get to 2026, we would have properly divided constituencies, polling districts and wards, and people will be well represented.

Madam Chairperson, the last issue I want to address is on the erosion of confidence that I note my hon. Colleagues keep talking about. I think that one of the ways you erode confidence is to debate in the manner some of our hon. Colleagues are debating. They are totally out of order to use this Floor and say, for example, ‘invalid’.

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: What they are basically saying is that the hon. Members of Parliament who are here are not supposed to be here. When people hear them say that, they start questioning and say “we thought there was an election …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mrs Masebo: …which was free and fair, but how come, in Parliament, hon. Members are calling their friends’ election as ‘invalid’.”

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

Mrs Masebo: That is how –

The Chairperson: Yes, there is an indication for a point of order. Mr Kampyongo, what is your point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, first of all, it is surprising for a Member of the Cabinet to respond to another policy statement which the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is going to respond to. In her discourse, she started by discussing the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. The issue she raised about National Registration Cards (NRCs), is under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will come to this august House to render a policy statement on those matters. She has now veered off and has started discussing us here (pointing to the Opposition Bench), which is against Standing Order No. 65. Is she in order to refer to our debates as being out of order?

Mr Munsanje: Yes.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, when did the hon. Minister assume your role? She is the longest serving hon. Member of Parliament in here …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: … who should know the rules of the House. Is she in order to refer to our debates as –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: We were making our observations and she should understand that. In your ruling to the point of order raised on my hon. Colleague, you said that as long as our debates and opinions are according to the confines of the rules of this august House, they are valid observations. Is she in order to continue on that trajectory.

I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Thank you, hon. Member. I think we are talking about one and the same thing. It is just the language that is being used. You agree, they do not agree. They agree, you do not agree. Can we focus on the debate so that we make progress.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I was talking about the erosion of confidence that has been talked about on the Floor of this House and I was responding that you erode confidence in a system if you say things that basically are not correct. The public is hearing. The hon. Members of Parliament here were elected, but somebody is saying their election is invalid, as if the courts of law declared that the election of these people invalid. So, how we behave, what we say and how we say it, especially if we are not factual, is what erodes confidence in a system.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: Tell them

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, still on erosion of confidence, I want to say that, in the past – it is important to talk about the past …

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

Mr Munsanje: Yes!

Mrs Masebo:…because that is how we can get better. I am happy that the people of Zambia made a good choice to change the past and bring something that is better. I am happy that the current President has made it very clear that he wants free and fair elections, and a country that is inclusive of everyone, whether Opposition or not.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

The Chairperson: I will allow the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to respond to some issues that were raised.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote pertaining to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Madam Chairperson, first and foremost –

Mr Kang’ombe: Order!

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I will continue tomorrow.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1843 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 2^nd November, 2022.

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