Friday, 7th October, 2022

Friday, 7^th October, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

RULING BY THE HON. MADAM SPEAKER ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR JAMBA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MWEMBESHI CONSTITUENCY, AND A COMPLAINT BY MR CHAATILA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MOOMBA CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST MR MUNIR ZULU, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUMEZI CONSTITUENCY, FOR USING INSULTING LANGUAGE ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have a ruling to render against Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency, who was found in breach of parliamentary privilege and in contempt of the House, on a point of order raised by Mr Jamba, hon. Member of Parliament and a Complaint by Mr Chaatila, hon. Member of Parliament.

As per our practice and procedure, a member who is found in breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House, is required to be present in the House when the ruling is delivered. In that regard, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, was contacted by the Office of the Clerk to remind him to be present in the House, today, Friday, 7^th October, 2022. However, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, elected to absent himself from the House. I will nonetheless, proceed to render the ruling.

Hon Members, you will recall that on Wednesday, 5^th October, 2022, when the House was considering the Motion to Abolish the Position of District Commissioner (DC) moved by Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency, and Mr Munir Zulu was winding up debate, Mr Jamba, hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembeshi Constituency, raised a point of order.

In his point of order, Mr Jamba, hon. Member of Parliament, stated that the words uttered by Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, when he was winding up debate on the Motion, were unpalatable and asked how the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker could allow him to utter such words.

In his immediate response to the point of order, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker reserved his ruling to enable him study the matter.

Further, on 6^th October, 2022, my office received a letter of complaint from Mr Chaatila, hon. Member of Parliament for Moomba Constituency, on the same matter. In his complaint Mr Chaatila, hon. Member of Parliament, stated that on Wednesday, 5^th October, 2022, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament used unprintable and unparliamentary language when he was winding up his debate on the Motion to Abolish the Office of District Commissioner.

He added that the use of unparliamentary language is not only contrary to the decorum and dignity of the House but also, prohibited under Standing Order 66 (2) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021. He, therefore, sought my indulgence on the matter.

I have since reviewed the verbatim record of the proceedings for that day as well as the letter of complaint, and I will now render my ruling.

I wish to begin by addressing Mr Jamba, hon. Member of Parliament’s point of order.

Hon. Members, a review of the verbatim record revealed that Mr Jamba, hon. Member of Parliament, in raising his point of order, did not cite the relevant standing order that had been breached by Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, in his debate as required by standing order 131 (3). On that basis, the point of order is not admissible.

With regard to Mr Chaatila’s complaint, in line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, on 6^th October, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, requesting him to state his side of the story. In response, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, confirmed uttering the statement. He added that he had used the statement to metaphysically demonstrate that everyone in the House was an adult.

Hon. Members, the complaint by Mr Chaatila, hon. Member of Parliament, raises the issue of a Member using insulting language in the House.

Hon. Members, our rules on parliamentary etiquette prohibit the use of unparliamentary language in the House. To this effect, Standing Order 66 (1) states the following:

“Unparliamentary language refers to the use of offensive, provocative, insulting, threatening or obscene language in the House.”

Hon. Members, a review of the verbatim record shows that Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, in winding up the debate on the Motion to abolish the position of DCs, used unparliamentary language as alleged in the complaint.

Hon. Members, the rules of the House on etiquette and decorum in the standing orders prohibit the use of unparliamentary language, and were formulated to maintain discipline, decorum and the dignity of the House. Therefore, Hon. Members are called upon at all times, to refrain from the use of obscene, unpalatable and generally unparliamentary language in their debates in the House.

Hon Members, my predecessors have ruled several members out of order, for using insulting language in the House. While unparliamentary language does not usually attract a stiff punishment, the language used by the hon. Member for Lumezi Constituency was extremely obscene, inappropriate, and demeaning to hon. Members of Parliament. Such conduct is totally unacceptable and should not be trivialised.

Additionally, hon. Members will recall that this is not the first time Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, is committing a serious breach of the rules of the House. In March, 2022, the Committee on Privileges and Absences found him in breach of parliamentary privileges and in contempt of the House for making a statement that reflected negatively on a fellow hon. Member of Parliament.

Thus, on 23^rd March, 2022, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament was directed to apologise to the House. Whilst rendering the apology to the House, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, misconduct himself. This matter too was referred to the Committee on Privileges and Absences for consideration. The Committee, once again, found him guilty of misconduct. As a result, he was suspended for a period of ten days.

Hon Members, all this shows that the hon. Member is unrepentant and wants to bring this august House into odium, ridicule and disrepute.

Hon Members, taking into account the gravity of the offence committed by Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, and in view of the fact that Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, is a repeat offender, I have, in exercising my powers, under Section 28 (2) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, decided to suspend Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, from the service of the National Assembly for a period of thirty days.

Thus, in accordance with Section 28 (2) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, which requires a resolution of the House to suspend a member from the House, I now put a question.

Question that the House accordingly suspends Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, for a period of thirty days put and the House voted.

Ayes – (63)

Mr Amutike

Mr E. Banda

Mr Chaatila

Mr J. Chibuye

Mr Chikote

Mr E. Daka

Mr Haimbe

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Mr Kabuswe

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kangombe

Mr Katakwe

Mr Kolala

Mr Lufuma

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mapani

Mr Matambo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Milupi

Mr Moyo

Mr Mposha

Mr Mubika

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Mulebwa

Mr Mulunda

Mr M. Mulusa

Mrs Mulyata

Ms Munashabantu

Mr Munsanje

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Musumali

Mr Mutinta

Ms D. Mwamba

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mrs Nalumango

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkandu

Mr Nkulukusa

Mr Nzovu

Mr R. M. Phiri

Ms Sabao

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simushi

Brig-Gen. Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayali

Mr Tayengwa

Noes – (38)

Mr Ackleo Banda

Mr J. E. Banda

Mr Chala

Mr Chewe

Mr C. Chibuye

Mr Chilangwa

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chonde

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Lubusha

Ms Lungu

Ms Mabonga

Mr Mabumba

Mr B. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Mr Mukosa

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Emmanuel Musonda

Mr Mutale

Dr Mwale

Ms S. Mwamba

Dr Mwanza

Ms Nakaponda

Ms Nyemba

Ms Nyirenda

Mr PeterPhiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Shakafuswa

Mr Simumba

Mr E.Tembo

Mr M. Tembo

Mr Menyani Zulu

Abstentions – (0)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, although Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament is not present in the House, I will proceed to address him in absentia.

Let me inform you that the House is extremely displeased with your conduct of using obscene, insulting and demeaning language on the Floor of the House. As an hon. Member of Parliament, you are expected to conduct yourself with utmost dignity. This is a House of honour, decorum and dignity and I am duty bound to ensure that the honour, decorum and dignity of the House are protected and preserved at all times. I wish to reiterate that I will not tolerate gross indiscipline and misconduct from you or any other hon. Member.

Finally, I wish to inform you that in accordance with Section 28(3) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, during the period of your suspension, you shall not:

enter the precincts of the Assembly and this extends to the National Assembly Motel;
participate in any business or activity of the House or a Committee to which you are assigned, in your capacity as a Member of the National Assembly; and
be paid a salary or allowance that you are entitled to as a Member.

I now order, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament, to proceed on thirty days suspension with effect from, today, Friday 7^th October to Saturday 5^th November, 2022, as resolved by the House.

I further direct the Chief Hansard Editor to expunge the obscene words used by Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament from the Daily Parliamentary Debates of Thursday, 5^th October, 2022.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me acquaint the House with some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 11^th October, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2023 National Budget.

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday 12^th October, 2022, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Private Member’s Motion entitled “Improve Conditions of Service for Councillors” to be moved by Hon. S. Chanda, Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya Constituency. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2023 National Budget.

Madam Speaker, on Thursday, 13^thOctober, 2022, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2023 National Budget.

Madam, on Friday 14^th October 2022, the business of the House will start with Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will deal with questions. The House will then consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider the Second Reading Stage of the following Bills:

The Zambia Qualifications Authority Bill, 2022;
The Zambia Institute of Secretaries Bill, 2022;
The Zambia Development Agency Bill, 2022; and
The Investment Trade and Business Development Bill, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2023 National Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, of late, we have witnessed the continuous harassment of the former President by the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), and other investigative wings. I do not want to go into the jargon of quoting the Constitution that protects the former President. What is the position of the Government is on this continuous harassment of the former President.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bangweulu for that question. His question refers to what he calls “Harassment of the former President of the Republic of Zambia” and he seeks to know our position as the Government over the same matter.

Madam Speaker, the position of the Government is based on the Constitution and the laws that guide our land. Within the laws that guide our land, the former or current President cannot be prosecuted while enjoying the immunity. However, that is not an investigation. An investigation is a different matter altogether. One cannot bring a matter for example – We know that for the President to be prosecuted, his immunity must be removed. Any former President, and we are blessed to have only one now, cannot be prosecuted before his immunity is removed. How do we remove his immunity without any evidence at all? How do we get evidence without carrying out an investigation?

Madam Speaker, an investigation must be seen to be different from prosecution. If there is anything wrong in the manner the investigation was done, for now, we attribute that to the investigative wings. It is not that we have decided to harass the former President. Investigative wings investigate all of us, everyday.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I will ride on the question that was posed by Hon. Kasandwe. Now that Her Honour the Vice-President has made it clear that investigations have been instituted to ascertain whether the Presidential immunity should then be brought to this august House –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

I do not think that was the response.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us listen.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President made a distinction between prosecution and investigation, meaning that investigations have started.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we need to be sincere over this matter.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just ask your question. If you try to interpret, you might put words that Her Honour the Vice-President did not use.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, why is it such a challenge for investigative wings to be open and transparent to the former Head of State and tell him, “We want to investigate you so that …”

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I do not know how many Vice-Presidents we have on the other side (right).

Madam Speaker: Let us allow – Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, do not engage the hon. Members. That is why the presiding officer is here. Hon. Members, let us allow the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu to ask his question. Otherwise, we will miss the question. We will not hear what it is all about, and it will be difficult for Her Honour the Vice-President to answer. So, please, let us listen quietly.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is very important that we are dealing with this very important office. As for all of us former hon. Ministers, investigators can come any time and we are ready.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Very true! I know they are excited about the concocted figures they are hearing about.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

Hon. Members, let us just asked questions to avoid unnecessary comments and reactions. Please, ask your question, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, why is it so much of a challenge for investigative wings to be transparent and open so that the former President can avail himself for investigations other than sneaking into his properties which can amount to trespassing?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question, which gives us an opportunity to actually tell the people that certain allegations should not be entertained.

Madam Speaker, who is told, “We are now going to investigate you?” Is that what happens?

Hon. Government Members: No!

The Vice-President: Is that investigating or questioning? Investigation is investigation. As I stand here, I do not even know whether I am being investigated or not. So, I do not know what kind of investigation the hon. Member is referring to. If that is the way it is done, where a person is told, “Now, we have instituted an investigation on you for this and that” then there should be no investigation at all. I think we need to be sincere because we are dealing with people. Every Zambian has rights. The former President has rights within his office. Therefore, it is not right to say that investigative wings should be clear and transparent by telling people when they are going to investigate them.

Madam Speaker, I have not said that the former President is being investigated for us to now start talking about his immunity. No! I have only said that everybody, including the former President, can be investigated.

Madam Speaker, I distinguished the issue of prosecution because by law, nobody would allow that to happen. That is by the Constitution, but an investigation can be done on all of us.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the voice of Chienge this precious moment to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President is on record on the Floor of the House assuring the people of Chienge, Kashikishi, Kaputa and Nsama that the Kashikishi/ Chienge/Kaputa/Nsama Road would be included in the 2023 Budget. Why has this particular road not been included in the 2023 Budget? The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, when presenting the 2023 Budget, did not mention this road when it is an economic road. Why has it not been included in the 2023 Budget as per the promise that was given to the people of Chienge in the last sitting?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I must declare very special interest in that question. I would start by apologising if I had said that that road would be in the 2023 Budget. It is not a preserve of this office to know which road is in the Budget. However, I can only say that yes, even the hon. Minister of Infrastructure and Urban Development is concerned about that road and we are looking forward to seeing that it is in the Budget. It was not a promise from my office that that road would be in the Budget. We have listened to the Budget Speech and we are anxiously waiting to see which roads are indicated in the Budget, just like the hon. Member, but I do not think I promised that it would be included in the Budget.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, farmers in Chinsali, such as those at Chimbele Satellite Depot as well as other farmers in the other districts of Muchinga Province, and other provinces who supplied maize to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), have not been paid for the maize that they supplied to FRA.

Madam Speaker, they requested me today to ask Her Honour the Vice-President when the Government is going to completely pay for the maize that FRA bought from the farmers.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank this hardworking Government. I also thank the hon. Member for that question. Unprecedentedly, the Government is ready to pay. It is not just ready but the money was released. I am saying unprecedentedly because the first batch of farmers who supplied maize to the Government through the FRA has been paid. For the second batch, the money was released on Wednesday, and it will be paid in full. I think the man from Chipili can dance again.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, due to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) that has grown significantly in the New Dawn Government, we are now being advised to undertake most of the activities under the CDF. We tried to do that in terms of costing a 2 km township road. Obviously, what we were given would have gobbled up the entire CDF money without doing anything else among the many challenges that we have. Seeing that we cannot work on township roads from the CDF, what is the Government position at this point in time regarding the construction of township roads?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue for that question. Maybe, we need a little bit of clarity on that issue. I hope I will not put the Government into one thing. In the course of decentralisation, which we can physically see by the disbursement and appropriation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to the constituencies, the local government has not stopped working on feeder and township roads. So, the issue of township roads still remains under the local authorities. It does not mean that that issue is no longer on the books and that CDF will do everything.

Interruptions

Hon. PF Member: What about a tarmac?

The Vice-President: A tarmac does not matter. I am talking about roads, be it gravel or tarmac. So, no one has said that roads cannot be worked on through the local authority. Those roads which were under the local authority like feeder roads are still under those functions. As for the CDF, I think it is for people to decide how quickly they want something done. I think that is the way I would respond.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, 90 per cent of the good people of Petauke are farmers, and right now, they are preparing for the 2022/2023 farming season. Most of them did not get fertiliser last year under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) despite paying their contributions. The Vice-President informed the House that the supplier had challenges. When the hon. Minister of Agriculture gave a ministerial statement, he said that he has allocated fertiliser for the Eastern Province. He did not include those farmers who did not get fertiliser last year. The farmers of Petauke who paid their contribution last year but never collected fertiliser are asking if they are going to get fertiliser this year.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Petauke for that question. Today, it is Petauke and not “Peta-UK” in English.

Laughter

The Vice-President: The hon. Member is right by stating that the hon. Minister did promise that those farmers would be looked at. All that he said is true. The problem was not necessarily the Government. We had challenges last year in the procurement and delivery of fertiliser, but this year, hopefully no other hon. Member will ask about this because it has been put into consideration. Those who had paid the K400 will be given the fertiliser together with this year’s fertiliser, if they are still on the programme

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, on 9^th September, 2022, His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, President of the Republic of Zambia, addressed the nation through this august House. As he reflected on what he termed as good governance environment, he indicated that the fight against corruption was going to continue, and off-script, he said to the House and to the nation, “Watch the space next month.” Following the arrest of Kelvin Fube Bwalya (KBF) and several Opposition leaders, and the searching or investigation of the former President, Mr Edgar Lungu, could this be the implication of the “watch the space” or we still need to continue watching the space?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Lunte for this question which is referring to the speech of His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, on good governance. The position of the President is very clear and the fight against corruption continues. The President did not say it is for certain individuals. The fight truly continues. All of us must watch the space ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: ... just in case we find ourselves in that space. There will be no sacred cows. That was part of what the President said. Hon. Member, there will be no sacred cow. For me, I look this way; I look that way; and even that other way.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Watch the space. All of us as Zambians, we must desist from corruption. There is no way one can start imagining that this Government is being selective in its fight against corruption. That is what I deduce. I am sorry if I have put words in the hon. Member’s mouth. No! The fight against corruption will continue and we pray it goes on very well without anybody being victimised. We are also candidates for investigation and we can also be found corrupt. They can investigate us now. For us, we will not even tell them to wait. No. The investigation or the fight goes on and all of us must watch the space.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A. I. Banda (Vubwi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this privilege to ask a question. What plan does the Government have for the Chipata/Vubwi Road, especially that farming inputs are not delivered to Vubwi because the road is terribly corrugated and could be impassable in due course? What is the position of the Government pertaining to the same road?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Vubwi for that question. Let me also thank the hon. Minister because I did not even know he was around. We do not stand to tell what is not true. We are assured as the people of Vubwi that the maintenance works will continue on the Chipata/Vubwi Road to make it at least passable. For the future, I am sure the ministry is planning on how to go forward. For now, maintenance works go on.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the good people of Solwezi East to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question. This morning, the people of Solwezi East conveyed their greetings to Her Honour the Vice-President and they asked me to state to her that head teachers are actually so disturbed that they are never found in schools. If one is found in school, it will just be for one or two days. For the rest of the days, they are found in workshops spending the money this Government has given as a grant to enhance quality education. These head teachers are ever in workshops.

Madam Speaker, the people of Solwezi East are asking if they will continue on that trajectory of spending money on workshops whose information can even be conveyed to schools through memoranda? They are concerned that head teachers together with the officers at provincial level go to camp for three or four days spending the Government money. People are so worried and are asking Her Honour the Vice-President to intervene in this matter.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, listening carefully to the hon. Member, what I get is the issue of head teachers spending time in workshops instead of being at their stations. There is really no question there. He has asked for intervention. As the Government, we will follow-up and see what is happening.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Kalulushi an opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question over the issue of the high level of crime particularly, in Chambishi.

Madam Speaker, the level of crime in Chambishi is appalling. For example, currently, in Twaiteka Ward, there are thieves who knock on the doors of residents and asking them to open. If residents do not open, thieves will make sure the doors are opened. Today, our residents are living in fear and this is attributing to two things. Firstly, the closure of Chambishi Metals PLC which we, as the people of Kalulushi Constituency have been waiting for its reopening. I am not sure if the Government is looking for a new investor but the issue is that we have been waiting for its reopening for a very long time.

Madam Speaker, the other issue that is attributing to the high level of crime particularly, in Chambishi is that the dump site in Non-Ferrous China Africa (AFCA) Mining Plc, where youths were getting chromite, has been closed from last year. This means that our youths are no longer benefiting from that dump site and this is attributing to the high level of crime in Chambishi.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chambishi and Kalulushi are pleading to Her Honour the Vice-President as a mother and Leader of Government Business to reconsider opening up Chambishi Metals Plc and the dump site in NFCA, where the youths who are unemployed were benefiting from. It is an appeal; I never asked a question.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: It is an appeal. So, I do not know if Her Honour the Vice-President wants to say something towards that appeal.

Ms Mulenga: Let me ask a question. Will Her Honour the Vice-President reconsider the two special requests from the good people of Chambishi who dearly love her?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, really, everybody receives love with joy and I receive the love from the good people of Kalulushi. Truly, the hon. Member feels the pain of the unemployment situation that is in our country.

Madam Speaker, this is why your Government, the New Dawn Government, is working hard to reverse the trend by ensuring that Chambishi Metals Plc which was closed is reopened. However, I can tell the hon. Member that the Government is equally concerned. I am told that there are talks currently between the new interested investor and the old one to ensure that that company functions again and that our people find jobs. Some of them will be induced from poverty and lack of employment.

Madam Speaker, as for the dump site, I think again, that is an issue I would need to learn a little more about. I cannot promise. Even if it has to be worked on, which is important because we want to use every resource of the country, I cannot promise how and when it can be reopened. I will need to find out. However, I wish to urge the people of Kalulushi that poverty should not invite criminality. Going to steal is not really a sign of poverty because there are many rich people who are –

Mr Syakalima: Thieves!

The Vice-President: I did not want to use the word, “thieves.”

Laughter

The Vice-President: There are many people who commit or do wrong things even when they have all they need.

Mr Mwiimbu: Like?

The Vice-President: Like corruption. Corruption is not about poverty. It is normally the rich or the able who commit this kind of crime. It is not a person in Twaiteka Ward who is involved in corruption. So, criminality is an issue of the heart. Let us help our people. We will work.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the people of Mandevu to ask a question to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, more than 750 employees of Lusaka City Council were laid-off by the New Dawn Government because they were perceived to be Patriotic Front (PF) cadres. Our Constitution says that one is supposed to be maintained on the payroll until one’s separation packages are paid, which is not the case. It was rather gratifying to listen to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning saying that going forward, the Government intends to pay repatriation packages within three months.

Madam Speaker, when will the Government consider the people who were fired by the Lusaka City Council? When will the Government pay them their separation packages because some, will die because of destitution?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Mandevu for that question, expect it becomes very difficult – I do not know what evidence the hon. Member has that makes him deduce that employees of Lusaka City Council were fired because they were Patriotic Front (PF). If that was the case, I think that was a strange kind of behavior. Probably, I do not know whether the people who were affected have evidence through a letter to them to that effect. However, what I know is that in councils particularly, the Lusaka City Council, there were people who were laid aside for them to verify the qualifications.

Mr Syakalima: Correct.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I think that is part of our agenda.

Madam Speaker, even when we came here, we talked of professionalism. I think everybody must meet the qualifications that are required. The challenge is that people are sitting in offices and holding positions that they are not qualified for. I think the hon. Member must also be concerned. However, when it is verified that they are qualified for the jobs they were doing, I am sure they should be called back.

If they were not qualified, it is just in order that they stay away because then, there is something wrong.

Mr Katakwe: Correct!

The Vice-President: All of us here must have Grade 12 certificates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: That is a prerequisite. If you find that I, Nalumango, do not have a Grade 12 certificate, I think it is in order to put me aside. I should then, quickly show my Grade 12 certificate. If I fail, people should not say, “No, it is because she is UPND, that is why she is no longer Madam Vice-President.”

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, on 17^th September, 2022, the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC) announced that it had engaged a consultant to engage traditional leaders in the Western Province and other stakeholders on the declaration of the Barotse Plains as a World Heritage Site. When this issue came up, I went to see the hon. Minister of Tourism before that announcement was made and I advised him that there was need for consultation so that the people of the Western Province could understand what that meant.

Madam Speaker, it was mentioned that a consultant would engage the traditional leaders and other stakeholders. Who are the other stakeholders? I am saying so because we have hon. Members of Parliament from the Western Province in here who have not been consulted. I must confirm that almost all hon. Members of Parliament from the Western Province have Barotse Plains in their constituencies. We also have a caucus in this House on Conservation and Climate Change. Are these part of the “other stakeholders” who will be consulted?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, what I get is that, as it is generally, we are in a dispensation of consultative governance. That means even this process will involve all the stakeholders. Consultations will go on before anything is done. We are assured of that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, there is a growing trend of a certain group of people supporting criminality. There are also people who are supporting those who insult the citizens of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, my concern is on the fight against corruption in this country by this New Dawn regime and I just want Her Honour the Vice-President to educate the nation and the House on the same. When the law enforcers are investigating people who committed crimes in the previous regime, and those who are committing crimes today, are they investigated through tribalism or according to the number of crimes they have committed?

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Laughter

The Vice-President: I have no hammer; I just have words.

Laughter

Mr Michelo left his seat.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Bweengwa.

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, when you ask a question, you remain seated and wait for the response. I thought that was part of the –

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: He is coming to sit closer.

Mr Michelo sat on the Executive Bench.

The Vice-President: Oh, he wants to hear me clearer.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the answer will be very short. The fight against corruption can never be undertaken on tribal lines. To start with, are the investigative wings full of one tribe?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr E. M. Musonda: Yes!

The Vice-President: Okay! Lay the evidence on the Table.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: As far as I know, these investigations on corruption are not tribal. It is a national matter.

Mr Katakwe: Correct!

The Vice-President: All of us must be concerned. Honestly, we must all be concerned about corruption. We cannot be labelled a corrupt country. No! It is the few – I want to be careful with words. It is the few people who are involved who make us all look bad.

Mr Katakwe: Correct!

The Vice-President: Therefore, the fight against corruption should not be, at any one given time, attributed to be a tribal issue. I think this question was asked earlier when we came to this House, and my response was that one cannot hide in tribe because there is no tribe which is full of corrupt people.

Mr Katakwe: Correct!

The Vice-President: If you are corrupt, you are corrupt alone.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Do not involve other people and hide in them. I have seen that some people who are questioned are from all over the country.

Mr Katakwe: Correct!

The Vice-President: There is no way we can say that in this fight, all those who are questioned are only from one area. The fight is against corruption and not a tribe or region. The fight goes on. People should not use others to cover their own mischief.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Madam Speaker, on Monday, 3^rd October, 2022, Pamela Chisupa and twelve others were found in a House in Chalala. The concern of the community, in particular, Chawama, is the way that the police handled the situation. The police did not disclose from the beginning that there were twelve other girls involved. What assurance can the Government give the nation and the people of Chawama that there are no any similar groupings of abductors and victims out there?

Mr Mwiimbu conversed with Her Honour the Vice-President.

The Vice-President: I first get a brief.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chawama for that concern. Firstly, I think it is the disclosure of the number of people, if I heard the hon. Member right, who had been abducted. I think, even listening to others, some of them may not have reported anywhere. I am glad that, I actually saw on television yesterday, that people are now coming together through the “know your neighbour” initiative. Some of the girls who were abducted are students and their parents probably thought they were in school.

Mr Katakwe: Correct!

The Vice-President: Nobody knew that they had been abducted. I think that the “know your neighbour” is very important. It is time communities got involved in knowing where others are. We are developing into another type of society. Therefore, the disclosure may have been difficult because the police may not have known about all the thirteen girls.

Again, issues of this nature Madam Speaker, become difficult to investigate if the police are going to continuously announce and tell us where they are. So, indeed, there may be gaps that the police can work on but, there was very little they could have said because they did not know that there were other people who were also abducted. I think we are learning as we go on.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Emmanuel Banda (Muchinga): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Muchinga an opportunity to ask the Vice-President a question. On 27^th September, 2022, a bridge that links three wards in my constituency, that is Lukusashi, Chisomo in the valley, and Sancha, wards, collapsed, making it impossible for the three wards to be linked. In short, there is no movement because that is the only bridge they have. The question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What emergency plan is her office putting in place to make sure that this bridge is worked on before the onset of the rainy season or rather, before the rains start, so that people can have access to the valley and other areas?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think you have ruled on issues of this nature. It will be important to know whether such an issue has been brought to the office. For the hon. Member to wait until the bridge completely collapses, and then come and raise a matter here, where we cannot even discuss and know exactly what help can be rendered, may not be helpful. Help may not come as fast as it should be. However, if he comes to the office, we can help because the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) is for the people. Where there is genuine reason, we try to work as fast as we can. If we cannot, we work with the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to see that the people are not cut off. The hon. Member does not have to wait until he comes to ask a question in the House.

Madam Speaker, I know we are politicians and we want our people to hear that we are talking for them but in waiting to do that, we disadvantage them because it takes a little too long. People need to move from here to there. I therefore, urge the hon. Member to go straight to the office and report because I am not aware if he has done so. I would still urge him not to run away from the question. He should come and let us exactly what it is. We want to know if we need to fix the bridge or it is something that can wait. He is welcome to go to DMMU or direct to my office.

I thank you, Madam

Mr J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the people of Chadiza an opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question. There is confusion in my constituency with regards to the administration of this year’s Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). The hon. Minister came before the Floor this House and explained clearly what should be followed with regards to the administration of this particular programme. However, the officers who have been entrusted to manage this programme on the ground are doing to the contrary. For example, they are informing the people that they will be giving three packs per co-operative regardless of the number of people who are in that particular co-operative. What is the true Government position on this matter?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, indeed, it is a strange scenario. Really, as hon. Members, we are here listening and then somebody is doing completely something different from the ordinary. Did I hear him right, that they are giving three bags per co-operative?

Mr J. Banda: Packs!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, three packs? That means it is shared amongst eighteen people. Honestly, they are doing that irrespective of the number of people. A co-operative is not made up three members. If it is made up of three members, it is not be a co-operative. Can such officers be reported? That is all. That is what the hon. Member should do. He should report them to the authorities. He should start with his District Commissioner (DC).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, you have indicated continuously on a point of order and you are not even here. Please, acquaint yourselves with the standing orders when raising a point of order in particular, Standing Order No. 132 (2) (b), which states that a member shall not raise a point of order during the Vice-President’s Question Time. Please acquaint yourselves to that, hon. Members.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

STATUS OF AVAILABILITY OF INSULIN IN KALABO DISTRICT

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to give this statement which arose from the last question raised by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central concerning the status of the availability of insulin in Kalabo District.

Madam Speaker, I wish once again to thank you, for granting me this opportunity to update the House and the nation at large on the status of the availability in insulin in Kalabo District. The House may wish to recall that on 4^th October, 2022, during the Question for Oral Answer segment, Madam Speaker directed me to issue a ministerial statement on the shortage of insulin in Kalabo District of the Western Province. Additionally, she also guided that a fact finding mission be undertaken to get to the people on the ground in Kalabo, to establish whether this insulin is indeed, available. She instructed me to come back to this House on Friday, 7^th October, 2022, with the statement on this matter.

Madam Speaker, your directive followed a question that was posed by Hon. Miyutu, Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central Constituency who wanted to know whether the Government was aware that there is a critical shortage of insulin at all public health public health facilities in Kalabo District, if so, what urgent measures were being taken to ensure availability of insulin in the district prevent loss of lives.

Madam Speaker, Kalabo District has a total number of thirty-three health facilities and an estimated catchment population of 102,000 people. The breakdown of the health facilities in Kalabo are as follows:

two level hospital;
twelve health centres; and
nineteen health posts.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that out of thirty-three health facilities in Kalabo District, only two health facilities and the district health office are expected to store and administer insulin considering that this is one of those specialised drugs.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government through the Ministry of Health undertook a fact finding mission on 6^th October, 2022, to the three facilities namely:

Kalabo District Health Office – The technical team found that from January, 2022 up to date, the District Health Office (DHO) has had a total of forty vials of soluble insulin (short acting insulin) and seventy-four vials of mixtard (a combination, of short and long acting insulin). The expiry date for this insulin stored at this facility is September, 2023;
Kalabo District Hospital –The technical mission team found two batches of soluble insulin:

110 vials with expiry date of September, 2023;
five vials of soluble insulin with expiry date of October, 2022;
seventy-two vials of mixtard insulin with expiry date September, 2023, and eight vials of long acting insulin with expiry date of November, 2022.

c.Yuka Adventist Mission Hospital – On the day of visit, the technical mission team found twenty vials of soluble insulin (short acting insulin) with an expiry date of September, 2023, twenty mixtard insulin (combination of short acting and long acting insulin) with expiry of September, 2023, and seven long acting insulin expiring in November, 2022.

Observations of the Findings

Madam Speaker, allow me to make the following observations on the findings of the technical mission team:

Kalabo District has a total of 155 vials of soluble (short acting insulin), 146 vials of Mixtard (a combination of short and long acting insulin), and fifteen long acting insulin, translating into four to thirty-seven months of stock based on consumption which relates to the population that would need this.

Madam Speaker, this is consistent and above the quantities that I submitted in my earlier response to the Question for Oral Answer on Tuesday, 4th October, 2022 on the shortage of insulin in public health facilities in Kalabo District health facilities.

the stock levels of insulin in Kalabo district is above the recommended maximum of four months of stock expected to be stored in the district. This is according to our established logistical inventory system.
Yuka Adventist Mission Hospital has had a supply of long acting insulin since January, 2022, while short acting insulin and mixtard (mixture of short acting and long acting insulin) were only received on 6^th October, 2022 from Kalabo District Health Office.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to state that Kalobo District is over-stocked with insulin and my ministry is putting in place interventions to facilitate redistribution to avoid wastage of insulin due to expiration.

Allow me to also state that not until 6^th October, 2022, Yuka Adventist Mission Hospital has had available long acting insulin while soluble (short acting insulin) and mixtard insulin (Mixture of short acting and long acting) were not available.

I wish to lay on the Table of this House the following documents for verification:

Goods received Note; and
Stock Control Cards.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Mrs Masebo laid paper on the Table.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s statement, I note that hospitals in Kalabo have insulin. What is the hon. Minister going to do to her officers at the Ministry of Health who have portrayed a picture, evidently, from the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, that they had no insulin, putting the lives of so many people at risk?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am not very sure if I understood the question clearly. If the hon. Member listened attentively, there is no much difference in what I have stated today and what I said in the statement of 4^th October, 2022. The only difference is that Yuka Adventist Mission Hospital received insulin on 6^th October, 2022. I want to believe that the District Health Director (DHD), who is the overall person who supervises all the facilities within the district, is the one who may have an answer to give. Clearly, this answer shows that at the district health office and Kalabo District Hospital, they have the drug. However, according to this statement, until 6^th October, 2022, there was redistribution of the drug from the district health office to Yuka Adventist Mission Hospital. That is my understanding.

Madam Speaker, let me say this in context. You will recall that yesterday, there was a question that was asked by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, who sought to know what the ministry was doing considering that in the past two months, I am not sure which months, there was only one medical doctor in the entire Kalabo District. However, in the answer, it shows that there were at least five doctors there. Madam Speaker, I will say there were only four doctors because the fifth one is doing administrative work. So, let me just say there were four medical doctors in Kalabo District. You cannot have a situation where, there are four medical doctors and you send three away on long study leave, marriage holiday, and short leave, leaving the facilities alone. That tells me that we are not doing well in terms of administering these facilities. We should not have a time when a district hospital should end up with one medical doctor. That tells me that something is wrong and needs to be corrected.

So, generally, we have a lot of work to do in the Ministry of Health. I hope that hon. Members can be of help by bringing these issues, not just here, but to the office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, from the responses that the hon. Minister has given, she has been appealing to the hon. Members of Parliament to help her. However, let me also place it on record that most of the hon. Ministers do not pick up their calls. I do not even know what help they are looking for. When people are calling them for work gatherings and information, they do not pick up the calls.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba: Yes, so, I do not know what help they are looking for.

Madam Speaker, quite clearly, nobody here, in his or her right frame of mind, can challenge the hon. Minister’s experience. She has been the hon. Minister of Health before and she has been in charge of quite a number of other ministries. Ever since she became hon. Minister of Health under the New Dawn, at Head Office, she always has different information from what is on the ground. She runs a complex ministry, but there are other complex ministries such as the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and the Ministry of Agriculture, but we do not see this mismatch. Could it be that the hon. Minister does not have a good working relationship with her health key staff?

Madam Speaker, in her response to the question posed by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, who sought to know what the ministry was doing considering that for the past two months, there was only one medical doctor in Kalabo District, she told the House that there were five doctors but three were on leave, including marriage leave. Why is there no accurate information between her office and what is on the ground?

Madam Speaker: That is a difficult question, but I will allow it. I am sure the hon. Minister will be able to explain.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, we took over from a very difficult Government, especially when it comes to the issue of the Civil Service and culture that we found. Upon appointment, one of the things we were told by His Excellency the President was that his agenda was to unite this country for development and that we must go into these ministries to embrace everybody. That is exactly what I did as hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, as hon. Minister of Health, I called and talked to everybody in the ministry and I was very frank with them. It is on record and I can repeat what I told them. I told them exactly what the President told me. I told them that we knew who they were and what they were doing. I urged them to forget the past because this is country. I told them that as a former Minister, I understood them that they had to work with the Government of the day. I further stated that those of them who may have done illegal things would be on their own but we should move forward. That was my message.

Madam, there are some, maybe, I could even say many, who have embraced the New Dawn Government and are committed to work, but like in all systems, we still have quite a good number, unfortunately, who are working to undermine the new Administration. So, it will take us a bit of time but, we will clean up the system.

Madam Speaker, with regards to information, yesterday, I said that calling an hon. Minister a liar is an unfair statement. Hon. Members know how the system of the Government operates. The statement that I have just read was drafted for me. Of course, we read and try to do our work. Speaking for myself, I do a lot of work. I even research. I do not just come to read statements in this House. At times, of course, we are misinformed and this misinformation may not be from the main ministry but, from the province. Sometimes, it is not be at the provincial level but, at the district level. Sometimes, it may be at the district level or at the facility level. These are human weaknesses that hon. Members should expect.

Madam, we have a disciplinary code of conduct for officers. So, we need to just start being tough as the Government. I hope that hon. Members will support us when we start taking action. Mr Phiri at the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is not sleeping. He is working but now, some hon. Members are saying that we are targeting them. When we kept quiet, they say that we are doing nothing about it because we want to be corrupt. When we start taking action, it will be precisely because of the question the hon. Member has asked. We will start believing that some of these people do not want to work and we will be clearing them. We will stop transferring them. We will start clearing them. So, that is what we are going to do. We need to work together.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member said that when they call us, we do not answer our phones. That is another unfair statement …

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

Mrs Masebo: … because right now, I am in Parliament and phones are ringing, but I cannot pick. Somebody thinks I am ignoring their phone calls. When I leave this place, I go to the office to meet people. It means that I am working for the same people to make things move. The phone rings from morning up 0100 hours or I should just say, the following morning. Do you know what our friends did, which is so unparliamentary? They posted our numbers on the Patriotic Front (PF) facebook page and wrote, “Phone them now. Disturb them.” This is very childish kind of politics.

Madam Speaker, some of us respect our colleagues when it comes to work because we know that we cannot succeed without working with them. It is them who want us to fail. Some of them will deliberately not tell us about something. They will just go on radio and start misinforming the public. Gentlemen and ladies, through the Speaker, let us work together. The Speaker has been telling us to work together, especially for health. The way life is, it will be your own loved one who will die because of lack of a, b, c or d if you do not used this opportunity to build.

Madam Speaker, when you told me that I should tour the health facilities, the following morning I did that. Her Honour the Vice-President also called and said, “Maybe, there is something you are missing. Why do you not just walk in any health facility and see?” In the morning, I walked into Mtendere Health Centre, unexpected and unannounced and found that the hospital was full like a market place. There were mothers with babies. I asked them if that was what they experienced every day and they agreed. They said that now that things had improved, they were having more people in hospitals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: Who chooses to be sick?

Mrs Masebo: They told me that they were getting K9,000 every month but now, they are getting K48,000 every month, as a grant. I recorded that, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: They said they would get that K9,000 maybe, four or five times a year, but now, they receive it every second week of each month. I asked why they had a problem with drugs and they took me to their pharmacy. When I got there, I found a young lady. I asked if there were any complaints and I she told me everything was okay. I said, “That is your problem as Zambians. I have come and you are saying everything is okay. As soon as I leave, you will go on social media and say that there is no this and that. Tell me everything while I am here.” Obviously, I think she was scared to talk because I was with nurses.

Madam, when I went inside the pharmacy, I found a lot of medicines but the pharmacists told me not think that all the medicines were 100 per cent in stock. She told me that at that particular time, their stock levels were adequate. She said that for anti-retroviral (ARVs) and malaria drugs, they were over 90 per cent and 80 per cent, respectively. She mentioned that there were drugs which were at 30 per cent and some, at zero per cent like flagyl. Antibiotics were under 20 per cent.

Madam Speaker, we are not doing well in terms of essential drugs. We are doing well in major drugs like the ones for malaria, Human Immunodeficiency Virus Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (HIV/Aids), and tuberculosis, which are over 90 per cent. We have no issues.

Madam, the pharmacist also said that the problem was demand. She said that they were getting drugs from the Zambia Medicines & Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA), at district, and also, buying their own. Madam Speaker, she said that now that the Government had increased the grant for drugs from the 10 per cent, which was there under the previous Administration, they were now allowed get 30 per cent of the drugs. However, she said that drugs were still not enough because the demand was high. People were making sure that they went to the facilities and as the facility, they needed to improve on that.

Madam Speaker, I am saying this to you so that people can understand. When the hon. Member of Parliament said all the facilities had no drugs, I think it is because he did not understand that there are specific drugs one can only find at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) or a district hospital, depending on the nature of the disease. However, those essential drugs and health kits for coughs and diarrhorea are the ones people may find at the local facilities.

Madam Speaker, let me mention this point and I hope the public through you, can hear this. There is need for the hon. Members of Parliament to encourage all their communities to subscribe to the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). It can help a patient a lot if he or she is subscribed to NHIMA. First priority is given to patients who are registered with NHIMA because everybody by law, is supposed to subscribe to NHIMA. You will find that those patients who are registered with NHIMA will have no problem of having no money to pay. That is another issue that people must take on board.

Madam Speaker, I can go on and on just to help my colleagues understand these issues of drugs. We are on course and we shall be well. Very soon, we will be able to talk about have over 80 per cent on all essential drugs.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

_______

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bangweulu, you have a point of order but, before you raise it, I had given the hon. Minister some time to answer that question because it arose from some questions that were asked the other day and the one that was asked by the hon. Member for Kantanshi. So, I want to give her time to explain exactly what is happening on the ground. In terms of time, I will add five minutes to this segment.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, the point of order is pursuant to Standing Orders Nos. 65, 66 and 59, on the limit of debate, because you have just explained that the hon. Minister went beyond eight minutes when answering the question. My substantive point of order is premised on Standing Orders Nos. 65 and 66.

Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s answer, she said that the Patriotic Front (PF) put the hon. Ministers’ numbers on social media, and she said that is being childish. So, she called the PF childish. In fact, however, the numbers of hon. Members of Parliament are on the Parliament Website. It is not the PF that has put those numbers there.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Health in order to call the PF childish while pointing her finger on this side?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: To the extent that the hon. Minister said that Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members of Parliament are childish, she was out of order.

The other issue is about the numbers. I think, there was a point of order that was raised and we had advised that the complaint be put in writing so that we can address the issue.

I think, we can make progress. Any supplementary questions?

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister has confirmed that the drug in question is available in Kalabo, can she encourage the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo to go and report this case to the police so that those who were on duty can be arrested and be charged with negligence?

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether the hon. Minister wants to make a comment on that.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I am not sure whether that is how we should run our clinics; that if somebody goes to a clinic and is told that there are no drugs there, then somebody should go and report the clinics to the police.

Madam Speaker, at Mtendere Clinic, when I asked why the officers gave people prescriptions, they told me that in some instances, even when they had the drug, they still gave prescriptions. They said they did that when they noticed that stocks were low. So, when drugs reached a certain level, say, 20 per cent, those who went to the clinic during the day were told to buy the drugs so that the available drugs could be reserved for those who went to the clinic in the evening or those who were admitted. That was because the officers knew that patients who went to the clinic in the evening could not be sent out to buy drugs. Therefore, that situation was created by the health workers who, in their own wisdom, began to ration drugs even when the drugs were available. That was really a sad.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwan’gandu): Madam Speaker, indeed, we have been saddened by the hon. Minister of Health’s submission. I think if we had an earnest conversation with our hon. Colleagues on the other side “right side”, it would help because we, as people’s representative know what is obtaining on the ground. What she has mentioned is happening in Kalingalinga, that heath workers ration medicines is true.

Madam Speaker, like I am saying, if we could have an earnest conversation with our hon. Colleagues there “right side” without politics involved, things would be fine. The situation in most of our health facilities is dire. We can encourage our people to register with National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) scheme but, those of us who represent villagers can have challenges due to limitations.

Madam Speaker, what is the hon. Minister doing to address this situation, holistically? The isolated incident she has acknowledged is what is obtaining everywhere. People are being given prescriptions. So, we do not know what to believe when the hon. Minister assures us on the Floor that there is medicine in the facilities. Some of us find time to visit these facilities, including hospitals, to just appreciate what is obtaining. What is she doing to address this situation so that all of us, can stop lamenting over this matter which now looks like we are against her? Can she tell us what she intends to do in order to address this challenge because it is a worry to all of us as it is life and death.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there are times when questions are raised here and are answered. Like I said earlier, we try to be as factual as we can, taking into account that certain questions even take two months to be tabled. Sometimes, we may be on recess and when we come back to the House, that is when we respond to them. Maybe, at that time, situations may have worsened or resolved. So, I think that it is important to clarify that there is nothing like lying or defending things. I think I am not one of those people who defend anything that comes. The situation that we are in today is better than it was during the time they “Patriotic Front” were running the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon Opposition Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: That is a point I want them to take. I can prove it. There are health facilities I have visited and looked at their stock history. I was shocked by what I saw, when I went to one big hospital called Kasanda Clinic in Kabwe. I think I went there sometime in January this year, and when I looked at their stocks for January to September, 2021, there was zero. When I asked the staff how they were managing, one member of staff said that some non-governmental organisations (NGOs) used to donate medicine to the facility. She further said that during this Administration, there has been an improvement.

Madam Speaker, there are two things involved, the first one being resources. The hon. Member of Parliament and everybody here know that we resolved to double the allocation to medicine. That was the first point. The second point is that the people on the left created a law which the UPND still has implemented. Under this Act, the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) has been given the mandate to start procuring medicine. At the time we took over the Ministry of Health, the ministry was procuring medicines on its own, hence the issue of Honeybee. I keep explaining that the Ministry of Health is not procuring drugs right now because the Act which they themselves were a part of, has given that function to ZAMMSA. It is a process.

Madam Speaker, maybe, one day, you must lead your parliamentarians to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital (LMUTH), or any other facility such as Matero Clinic so that you speak to the people as the head of this institution. Maybe, that way, we can all understand the truth. If it is about me bringing any document on this Floor, I can do that. So, to say that we are doing nothing is not fair. We have improved. Order has come back.

Madam Speaker, I note that some people are undermining the New Dawn Government. If you go to ZAMMSA and look at the records, you will realise that every two weeks, ZAMMSA delivers drugs whether to the Western, the Northern or Luapula provinces, but within a short time, those drugs disappear. I said we are looking at some technology under the Ministry of Technology and Science, that will be used to track medical supplies to see if the stealing can be reduced because we know that drugs are taken from the health facilities.

Rev. Katuta: Stealing is unparliamentary.

Mrs Masebo: Stealing is what?

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, people out there are stealing drugs. There is theft of drugs and it has been reported. Some people have even been arrested, especially in the districts which are near the borders of the various countries around us. We have been told that drugs are going outside the country and people have been arrested. Some of them have appeared in court and others have been charged and are serving sentences. These are some of the challenges, but we are doing everything possible to address them.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to procurement, we are not only looking at our citizens or local suppliers but also, opening new suppliers, internationally. We have reopened the Missionpharma route which they, themselves “PF” cancelled and that is the problem that we have. We have the problem of kits and the debts which they were not paying. We have since paid those debts and now we have opened a route with Missionpharma. We have placed an order for drugs which will last a year. We have also opened a route to Egypt and we are now going to open a route to India.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Members, I think at the rate we are going, we will not make any progress. The idea here is that when we identify that there is something wrong in terms of service delivery, we, as hon. Members of Parliament, need to work together. That is why we have Committees. On this matter, we have the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services. So, if we have challenges like this, maybe, we should send that matter to the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services to explore and find out what the challenges are, and as we look at the challenges, what solutions we can make by way of overcoming these challenges.

This is an on-going process. It did not start today. It is something that we need to work on so that we can correct the situation. We can come here like we are putting a particular hon. Minister on trial, but I think the issue is not to put anyone on trial, but to see what mechanisms we can put in place to ensure that the people of Zambia have medicines in hospitals. I think that is where we should be heading towards. For that reason, I think the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services should look into the matter. I can see Hon. Dr Kalila is there. He is the chair of that Committee.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Please, Hon. Dr Kalila, can you do something to find out what is on the ground that is making the medicine not to reach our people. That will sort out that problem.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, after what I have said, do you still have a point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I totally appreciate your ruling. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 67, on relevance and repetition. My question to the hon. Minister was very clear and it was a follow-up on her own admission that in certain circumstances, there are a few stocks of medicines which medical personnel ration. Premised on that, I asked a follow-up question on what her ministry is doing to put measures in place to address this challenge.

Madam Speaker, partly your ruling has covered what I would have said. However, the hon. Minister must be advised that we are here to perform the same function you, Madam Speaker, has assigned to your Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services to perform. We speak for our people. When people complain that when they go to health facilities, they do not find medicines, it is our responsibility to bring that to the attention of the Executive. So, it is saddening that the hon. Minister wants to start putting the blame on the Government she was part of. There is no Government she has not been part of.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I think you have made your point. I have already guided.

Mr Kampyongo: So, we want her to just understand that we do not want to crucify her. We are speaking for the people and we want to make her responsible and do the right thing.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. As I earlier guided, this is an ongoing process. The shortage of medicine is not a new thing; it is an ongoing process. That is why I said that as hon. Members of Parliament, we need to make sure that as we highlight these challenges, we also propose solutions on how these problems can be addressed.

I have heard from the hon. Members that they fail to see hon. Ministers when they want to. So, what we can do is, if one is failing to get in touch with hon. Ministers, one can seek assistance through the Government Chief Whip. We have the Government Chief Whip in this House and that is one of his roles. The Government Chief Whip, through her Honour the Vice-President, will facilitate that. We learn about what is on the ground from the hon. Members of Parliament who are on the ground.

These hon. Members of Parliament are in 156 constituencies and they are on the ground. That is why we say, even in terms of decentralisation, Parliament is more devolved up to the constituency level. So, the Government will benefit from the ideas that come from the hon. Members of Parliament because they are on the ground. That is why they can feed the Committee and the hon. Minister with information so that solutions are found. If we sit and complain here, all the people will say is, “If hon. Members of Parliament are complaining, what solution do we have?” You will make them feel like they are not being cared for. So, please, let us work together and ensure that we address the issue of medicine. It is not only the issue of medicines that we need to sort out. There are so many other issues that we need to sort out. So, if we all work together, we will be able to sort out those problems. I think we have sufficiently dealt with this matter. We can make progress.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

WATER RETICULATION PROJECT IN MUNGWI

58. Amb. Kalimi (Malole) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

why the water reticulation project in Mungwi District has not commenced despite the contract being awarded in 2019;
what the cause of the delay in commencing the project is;
what the cost of the project is; and

what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, the water reticulation project in Mungwi District could not commence due to non-disbursement of funds from the Treasury. The cause of the delay was due to non-disbursement of funds from the Treasury. The cost of the project was estimated at K37,027,939.17. The project was scheduled to be completed within twelve months.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Amb. Kalimi: Madam Speaker, I was going through the Budget and I did not see if indeed, Malole is covered under this project. Can the hon. Minister assure the House that maybe, this project can be done under this Budget?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, indeed, under the 2022 Budget, we did provide for this project to a tune of K5.4 million. This project will be done in various stages. So, for phase one, we intend to spend K5.4 million. This project is catered for and I want to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that going forward, in the subsequent years, we will be able to continue allocating funds to various stages until we finish this project.

Madam Speaker, it is a critical project to ensure that the people of Mungwi District, whom I love so much, have access to clean and safe water. The hon. Member for Malole is aware of that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presented the Budget, he said the following:

“There is now budget credibility. In simple terms, this means that the Government is now spending in accordance with what Parliament approves with only minimum deviations.”

Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has actually funded this project, why would the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation come here and tell us that there were no releases, with this Budget credibility which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning promoted as he delivered his Budget Speech?

Madam Speaker: The only challenge I have there is that the Budget is not yet before us. All we have is the Budget Speech. So, if we go into those details – Why do we not reserve those questions when we start discussing the Budget? The hon. Minister has assured, although I am not supposed – Any way, let the hon. Minister speak.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, my response was in relation to the project. This contract was signed in 2019. So, from 2019, there were no funds that were released from the Treasury. In our first Budget, as the New Dawn Government, we have provided some funds to rescope this project. The costs for the projects that started in 2018 and 2019 cannot be the same. In any case, the contract expired because the money was not released. This happened in many projects because no money was released from the Treasury. I agree with the hon. Member that, we are being prudent as the New Dawn Government in ensuring that we allocate and release the funds.

Madam Speaker, to that effect, we have put on track even projects like the Kafulafuta Dam Project, which stalled for many years. For the Water Reticulation Project in Mungwi, that we are discussing here, I have assured the hon. Member of Parliament who asked this question that we are going to do it in various stages. We have allocated K5.4 million to cater for the first stage. So, I do not know what more the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte wants.

However, let me say that from 2018, 2019 up to the time we took over the Government, there was no money that was released from the Treasury. Obviously, I know the hon. Member wants us to take responsibility, but this Government was not there when this project started in 2018/2019. Now that we have taken over, I can assure him that we are releasing the funds. We have allocated K5.4 million to go towards the first stage of this project under the 2022 Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Amb. Kalimi: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for that assurance. I think the people of Mungwi will be smiling whilst waiting for that assurance to be fulfilled.

Madam Speaker: Let us make progress. We have so much pending work.

CONNECTION OF MAPATIZYA TO THE NATIONAL ELECTRICITY GRID

59. Mrs Munashabantu (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Energy:

when Mapatizya Parliamentary Constituency will be connected to the national electricity grid; and
what the cause of the delay in connecting the Constituency is.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba) (on behalf of the Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala)): Madam Speaker, according to the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP), Mapatizya Parliamentary Constituency is earmarked for electrification in 2030. The Rural Electrification Authority (REA) conducted a feasibility study to establish the scope and cost of electrifying public institutions along the route from Choma to Kalomo Junction in Mapatizya Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the scope involves the construction of 250 km of 33 KVA overhead lines, 22,390 m of 400V overhead lines, and installation of 23 X 50 KVA transformers at an estimated cost of ZMW 134,417,919.77. The main beneficiaries targeted were Inkumbi Primary, Siabalumbi Primary School, Kabanga Rural Growth Center (RGC), Kasikili Primary, Lubombo Primary, Luyaba Primary and Rural Health Centre (RHC), Nalubamba Primary, Misika Primary, Njokwe Primary, Sialumba Primary, Siamafumba Primary and Rural Health Centre, Sianjina Primary School, Sikalele Primary School, Sipatunyana Rural Health Centre and market, and Mapatizya Rural Growth Centre (RGC). These are studies that have been undertaken in anticipation of future activities.

Madam Speaker, there has been no delay in connecting the constituency to the national grid through the plans that we found already in place. Due to an increase in the Budget for REA by the New Dawn Government, the ministry is in the process of reviewing the master plan so as to ensure that the demands the majority of our people, of having access to electricity, are answered. I wish to urge hon. Members of Parliament across the nation, to accelerate the electrification drive through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). REA is available for technical support in as far as electrification projects in constituencies are concerned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Munashabantu: Madam Speaker, looking at the study which was done and the projection that the electrification project could be done in 2030, could the ministry consider reviewing the study in the middle term and maybe, give us hope?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Mapatizya for the follow-up question. If the hon. Member heard me, I said that there is an opportunity because now, the Budget for REA has increased. So, this is an opportunity that will enable us do a mid-term review of that long term plan that goes up to 2030, that will direct us on which projects to prioritise according to the Budget that REA has.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did indicate that there is a feasibility study to determine the cost of electrifying public institutions along the route from Choma via Kalomo to Mapatizya. I believe that distance is too long. Why does the hon. Minister not think of solar as an immediate enabler to sorting out problems in Mapatizya Constituency, which is my neighbour?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, I should take this opportunity to announce to the House that indeed, this week has been dedicated to sharing and creating awareness on alternative energy sources. So, there is an exhibition that is going on at Levy Park Mall. The week was launched by myself as the Acting Minister of Energy. This is where we are looking at technologies including solar that have been mentioned. So, these are some of the alternatives that will be looked at when we consider that mid-term review to see what can be done even before 2030. There is an opportunity that the review will be looking at the technologies as well as possibilities of having a Budget that can cater for different technologies in different locations. Indeed, the people of Mapatizya should be able to move with their Government in ensuring that they begin to take a bit at some of the needs that they have in that community.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

PAYMENT OF PENSIONERS

60. Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

how many pensioners were paid, countrywide, from 2017 to 2021, year by year;
how many pensioners were not paid, as of December, 2021;
how much money was owed to the pensioners as of the same date;
whether there are any pensioners that did not receive their monthly pension, as of January, 2022; and
if so, how many they were.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)): Madam Speaker, the total number of pensioners who were paid from 2017 to 2021, year by year, are as follows:

Year No. of Pensioners Amount paid (K)

2017 3,771 1,550,000,000

2018 1,257 645,000,000

2019 214 101,000,000

2020 2,313 1,170,000,000

2021 2,345 1,820,000,000

Total 9,890 5,290,000,000

Madam Speaker, the total number of pensioners that were not paid as of December, 2021, was 2,249 and are categorised as follows:

Category No. of pensioners

Statutory Retirement 1,375

Early Retirement 874

Total 2,249

Madam Speaker, the money that was owed to the pensioners as of December, 2021, was K1,375 billion. This was categorised as follows:

Category No. of pensioners Amount (K’ million)

Statutory Retirement 1,375 879,580,000

Early Retirement 874 495,400,000

Total 2,249 1,374,980,000

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that, some pensioners did not receive their monthly pensions as at January, 2022. The pensioners who did not receive their monthly pensions in January, the one I have just referred to, were 449. Pensioners were paid the lump sum in January, 2022. However, they could not be introduced on the January monthly payroll as the payroll was closed for input at that time. Nonetheless, they were included on the February, 2022, payroll.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, this question arose from the very fact that during the Budget debate last year, there were insinuations that the Patriotic Front (PF) neglected to pay pensioners. So, this question was actually asked in February, and I thank the hon. Minister, for having demonstrated that from 2017 to 2021, pensioners were being paid. According to the hon. Minister’s answer, only 2,249 pensioners were remaining. Out of the remaining number, how many have they paid so far?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, indeed, there are two things that we have to do. We respond and react to the way the public debate is flowing on and around an issue. If matters are not well-managed, and you let grievances continue to run, then you will end up in a situation where you might appear like you have not done the job. Obviously, there were quite a few people who had not received their monies.

Madam Speaker, I want to announce to this House that, we are now at a point where we are up to date. In the next few months, we should be able to clear pensioners who are eligible, as they leave their employment within three months.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, in 2011, when the Patriotic Front (PF) took over, they found over 22,000 pensioners who were not paid. What the public know, and it is good that the hon. Minister has confirmed that today, is that the PF neglected to pay the pensioners.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, what is you supplementary question?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I will ask my supplementary question, I am doing a build up.

Madam Speaker: Do not debate; just ask.

Mr Fube: Madam, anyway, I think, let the hon. Ministers attend to other businesses.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, by the fact that the hon. Minister has confirmed that now, there are zero people to be paid, that in itself, imply that these people are no longer on Government payroll. If that is true, when is the hon. Minister going to advertise the vacancies that have been created by the fact that now the people who were being owed are no longer on Government payroll?

Madam Speaker: Now, I do not know whether the hon. Acting Minister will be ready to answer that question because that does not arise from this question that you asked, which is about issue of advertising for the vacancies. Maybe, you can put in another question to ask when the positions that have been left vacant by the clearing of the pensioners will be filled. Otherwise, maybe, you can ask another question. Do you have another question?

Mr Kasandwe: No, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Since the hon. Member is satisfied, we can make progress.

________

MOTION

BUDGET 2023

(Debate resumed)

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was about to conclude my debate.

Madam Speaker, the people of Namwala are happy with this Budget. They now expect their district general hospital to be completed, and their township roads to be attended to.

Madam Speaker, further, using the same Budget, they expect all the insemination centres to be completed and opened.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the voice of the good people of Chienge to be heard on this very important Motion on the Budget Speech.

Madam Speaker, a Budget is not an actual thing. It is just an estimate, which can either be actualised or not actualised. The speech that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning gave, sounded good. I can confirm that being in this House for a second term now, I have listened to many good Budget Speeches and estimates. Some Budgets have been actualised and some not but, we keep on moving. The people of Chienge want to see that at least, 90 per cent of what has been estimated is actualised. It is like we are now getting used to the same song over the Budgets that are passed in this nation.

Madam Speaker, allow me to look at the 2022 Budget performance, which the hon. Minister also spoke about. I am very worried because the hon. Minister acknowledged that the 2022 Budget did not perform the way it was supposed to perform due to a few things that were not actualised. It is very important that the nation is informed on what was actualised and estimated, apart from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). These things should be itemised or tabulated in the speech. That will help the Zambians to understand. That will also help people like me, who do not have any financial background to be able to explain to the people of Chienge in vernacular for them to understand. So, in future, I would request the hon. Minister to come with an itemised document to show how the Government worked with the previous Budget.

Madam Speaker, I want to take the House to page 57, where there is agro-processing. Our country is dependent on copper and agriculture. The President has been talking about improving our economy using home-grown solutions. Page 57 of the Budget Speech states:

“Madam Speaker, to attract investment into corn starch processing, I propose to introduce income tax concessions for 15 years on income generated from local sales of corn starch by agro-processing businesses operating in Multi-Facility Economic Zones, Industrial Parks or rural area as follows:”

Madam Speaker, I believe it would have been better for these concessions to be given to the locals. Why do I say so? Most of the investors in the Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs) are foreign investors who are already enjoying the incentives that are given to them by, of course, the Government, through the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA). This should have worked better for the locals. For example, in Chienge, we have many mangoes and I would like to start processing them. However, if I am given the same tax concessions as the foreign investors, then, there is a problem. If that happens, we will be reaped-off, especially that some companies even have tax holidays.

So, since the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has not yet brought the figures to this House, the ministry should sit down and see how this is going to work. Local investors cannot have the same kind of concessions as foreign investors. It is very important that Zambians are given first priority. That way, people will believe and see that the New Dawn is taking care of them. In Bemba, we say, “akachila kambunshi kasengwila epokekele. A goat wags its tail to clean its surrounding because it believes that that its territory; it cannot clean any other place.

Madam Speaker, I just want to emphasise and insist that the Government should encourage more Zambians to invest in agro-processing. The citizens should not be given tax concessions that are similar to those of foreign investors.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I am looking forward to seeing the figures. I believe that maybe, in the 2024 Budget, we will see a Budget that will be actualised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte) Madam Speaker, thank you very much for a chance to reflect on the Budget Speech delivered by the Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning gave us some information, and I thought he was doing so in the context of very high poverty. Right now, the country has experienced tremendous poverty. So, I thought he was doing so in the context of very high youth unemployment and the rising cost of living. As a result, I expected that the hon. Minister would direct some of his intended activities in this Budget Address towards addressing the issues I have highlighted, which I thought were the basis of the address.

Madam Speaker, immediately the hon. Minister addressed this House, fuel was increased, not by coincidence, but by a deliberate measure which the hon. Minister pronounced. Therefore, he increased the pain on the part of the people of Zambia, particularly, the poor Zambians.

Madam Speaker, let me also address some of the issues, which cause me not to have much confidence in ministerial pronouncements such as the National Budget. The hon. Minister established that he targets to achieve a physical deficit of 7.7 per cent in 2023, but on the same day, and in the same Budget Address, he indicated a fiscal deficit of 10.3 per cent. So, when I calculated the gross domestic product (GDP), based on the fact that he said K167 billion is equal to 31.4 per cent of the GDP, 100 per cent of the GDP is around K365 billion. So, what is 7.7 per cent of that economy? It will give you K28 billion, but K28 billion is not what the hon. Minister has put in the Budget. Instead, there is K53 billion. Meaning that, the fiscal deficit, which is contained in the Budget Address, is 14 per cent. So, you have three percentages in one Budget Address, speaking to the same fiscal deficit target. So, for me, this is a serious contradiction which causes me not to have a lot of faith in the pronouncements of this Budget Address.

Madam Speaker, 90 per cent of Zambian youths are employed in the micro, small and medium-sized enterprise (MSME) sector. Where is the hope for the MSME sector in order to reduce unemployment? The hope lies in the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government directing resources towards this sector. However, what did the Minister tell us? He told us that MSMEs will get support from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). CDF is projected at K4.3 billion, that is if you take K28 million for all 156 constituencies. The solution lying in CEEC is just over K365 million. Now, when you add the K4.3 billion with K365 million, you are getting K4.4 billion. K4.4 billion is 2.6 per cent of the projected Budget. How can you solve the biggest problem we have with 2.6 per cent of the Budget?

Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, there is no law which ensures that only small and medium enterprises (SMEs) benefit from the CDF. Mega businesses can benefit from the CDF and this is why we have seen that motor vehicles are being bought, not from small companies but, from big companies. These vehicles are not being bought in the respective local councils, but at the ministry headquarters. So, to assume that MSMEs are the only enterprises that are going to benefit from the CDF, is something that cannot be believed by anyone because we know that mega businesses are going to tap into this fund.

Madam Speaker, the Mineral Royalty Tax was made deductible by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in the current Budget. What the hon. Minister has done is to maintained that deductibility and also reduced it by making the taxation regime incremental. Now, the Mineral Royalty Tax will be taken like Pay As You Earn (PAYE). All this is to support the so-called investors who have also been supported in so many other ways by even reducing their Property Transfer Tax, when the Zambians’ Property Transfer Tax has been increased. Can you imagine the hon. Minister increasing our Property Transfer Tax the same day that the investor’s Property Transfer Tax is reduced? I think that the focus on the so-called investors must begin to minimise. We, as a country, have to begin to focus on the people who had us be here.

Madam, my colleagues, the UPND Government, were brought into the Government by the people of Zambia. The people of Zambia deserve more support from the Government but the Government is supporting foreign investors, many of whom, from this Budget address, will come into this country without paying a single Dollar for a visa. I want to go and see the Liberty Tower in New Jersey, I will have to pay a visa fee. If I want to go and see the spear in Ireland, I will have to pay a visa fee. Why should they be coming here to see our Victoria Falls without paying visa fees? The focus on foreigners must reduce. Let us now begin to focus on the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you most sincerely for giving me an opportunity to make comments on the Budget Speech which was delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane. Firstly, I must congratulate him on a very progressive Budget. It was well thought-out and innovative in the sense that it was very well explained. For the first time, I saw him giving lectures while at the same time, delivering the Budget. To those who may not have understood the rationale of this Budget Addressm, I will go straight into the aspects that I wish to comment on. I realise several colleagues wish to make comments on this same Budget Address.

Madam, first of all, our Budget has been pegged at K163.7 billion. In order to move a step forward from having stabilised the economy in terms of the macro-economic environment, the hon. Minister has made several pronouncements by way of policies and strategies to stimulate the economy. That is very welcome because that is what we need in order to create employment and improve the livelihoods of our people, which is in tandem with the theme for this year’s Budget.

Madam, I will choose to speak specifically on the health sector. In this particular case, I wish to make some comments with regard to the topical issue of medicines and drugs in our health facilities. In so doing, I would like to quote the hon. Minister. In paragraph 134 of the hon. Minister’s speech, he stated that health is wealth, and indeed health is wealth. He further states;

“We cannot stimulate growth without investing in the health of our people. Government will continue to improve the provision of quality healthcare services through recruitment of health personnel, infrastructure development and provision of drugs and medical supplies”.

Madam Speaker, the issue of drugs has been extremely topical. There are currently accusations going back and forth, including on the Floor of this House, as to why the situation is as it is. Here are my thoughts.

Madam Speaker, firstly, Hon. Situmbeko Musokotwane has increased the budgetary allocation to the line for the supply of medicines to K4.6 billion. This is very commendable as opposed to K3.4 billion in the last Budget. Although the last Budget made a provision of K3.4 billion, we continued to see significant pressure in this respect. The argument is still not yet settled. There are still those who still feel that there are frequent stock outs. On the other hand, there are those in the Government who are saying that we have enough of these commodities. Here are my thoughts.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I sent a query through your office to the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) to try and understand what the total quantification the country requires, in any given year, in cost terms. I got the answer yesterday that this country requires K19 billion to sustain the health sector by way of supplying medicines. So, when you look at K19 billion, the allocation of K3.4 billion last year, and this year’s allocation of K4.6 billion, you can clearly see where the problem is. This figure is not coming from me. I have the formal letter from ZAMMSA. So, I think people can understand.

Madam Speaker, in short, we are buying too little for too many people. So, even if we buy and push these medicines, in two weeks, they will definitely run out. That is the reason we see the shortage. Although it is very commendable to have an increase, I still feel that going forward, we need to give this Budget line some more funding.

Madam Speaker, that is not the only reason. You will realise that all this money we have given will, unfortunately, go to India because we do not make these products here. My colleagues in the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services understand this very well. As a matter of fact, 90 per cent of the products we use here come from India. So, when we process an order, notwithstanding the various processes that are followed, we have to wait for the lead time, which can vary from between three to six months before we get these commodities. In the meantime, we have all these significant challenges. So, what we need, going forward, is to promote local pharmaceutical manufacturing in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I noticed the hon. Minister giving out several incentives. Unfortunately, there were no incentives that were given to local pharmaceutical manufacturing companies. Today, there are only four companies that make these products. These four companies only make simple preparations. When we ask why there are not so many people entering this sector, the answer is always the same.

Madam Speaker, firstly, in order to import the powders and liquids that are needed to make capsules or tablets, we need to pay duty and Value Added Tax (VAT). If we are importing the medicines such as Panado and Aspirin, there is no duty. It therefore, makes sense to just sit back and import these products rather than making them here.

Madam Speaker, so going forward, one key ingredient or step to take in order to promote local pharmaceutical manufacturing is to change the tax regime, remove all the permits, and to zero-rate all the raw materials, as our friends have done in Tanzania, where my hon. Colleague and I went. From the time Tanzania took this simple measure of removing taxes on raw materials for making medicines, it now has forty–two companies at various stages which have entered the market and are making these products. So until we start making these products, we will continue to cry because it takes time to bring them here. Even for life saving medicines like insulin, if we were making it here, we would just go and get it from the manufacturers. Now, we have to wait for it to come all the way from places far off such as India. So, I still emphasise that we need some additional tax exemptions for those who want to enter into this market.

Madam Speaker, I have several issues and I could speak more, but, for reasons of time –Lastly, we are just coming from the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) outbreak, which disrupted economies, and I would have loved this Budget Speech to include a line or two as an allocation for epidemic preparedness, but there is nothing. So, if today, we had to get another flare up, we would start running around looking for resources here and there or a supplementary Budget to fight it. In any case, this is already provided for under the Zambia National Public Health Institute (ZNPHI). There is a requirement for a national public emergency fund. It has not yet been operationalised because there is no money in there. Of course, I am yet to see if there is any fund towards it in the Yellow Book.

Madam Speaker, I thank you, on behalf of your Committee, for allowing us to undertake a more comprehensive approach to try and understand why we have these significant challenges. Yes, we are buying medicines but we are buying very little. We need more medicines and that is the reason we are where we are.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, I will always endeavour to raise a point of order where it matter the most.

Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 203(1) reads:

“Conduct of Members

A member shall at all times conduct himself or herself in a manner that upholds the dignity, integrity and decorum of the House”

Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 205 reads:

“Gross disorderly conduct

A member commits an act of gross disorderly conduct if the member –

defies a ruling or direction of a presiding officer;”

Madam Speaker, just a while ago, you guided the Member of Parliament for Chilubi, Hon. Fube but he just defied your guidance, abandoned the question, and decided to sit down.

Madam Speaker, in accordance to Standing Order 203 (1) and 205 (1), is he in order to sit there majestically and looking at me after misconducting himself grossly in that manner?

I seek your serious ruling for decorum to be observed in future.

Madam Speaker: I will reserve the ruling so that we can look at that closely. We do not want to punish too many people today. I think just one is enough. Let us make progress.

Mr Kampampi (Mwansabombwe): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you very much for giving the people of Mwansabombwe this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Budget Speech, which was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, first of all, let me start by looking at the mines. We all agree that Zambia still depends largely on mining. I still fail to understand why we are giving so many concessions to the mines when we know that mining is where we earn our foreign exchange. These concessions which are being given to the mines are a futuristic case. For instance, we are projecting to increase our production from 800 metric tonnes to 3,000 metric tonnes in the period of three years. This is something that we do not even have control over. Some concessions are not being supported in terms of the energy sector. If all these mines were in full capacity in terms of production, we would still need more energy to support production.

Madam Speaker, the best thing we should do when it comes to mining is putting measures that will monitor production of these mineral resources. Most of these mines do not even declare the correct production of the minerals they mine. Increasing in copper production will not change our economy. As a country, we should build on industries that we will have control over. We do not have control over these mining firms when it comes to pricing of commodities. The prices are controlled by the International Stock Exchange (ISE).

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about the Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. I am receiving so many questions when it comes to Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. People need to know which finished product we are going to be dealing with once Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited starts dealing in finished products. As far as I am concerned, there are about a number of by-products which Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited used to produce like HA4, Jet fuel, diesel and petrol. Now that we only have one line which is the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) Pipelines, does it mean that the Government is going to make more lines to be supplying these finished products?

Madam Speaker, what is the Government’s position over the stock feed worth K 1 million, which is in the pipeline, once the company resorts to producing finished products?

Madam Speaker, the increase of the Property Transfer Tax has a very negative effect on the people of Zambia. Madam Speaker, on page 49 of the Budget Speech, the Government is expected to collect about K19 million from Pay As You Earn (PAYE), and K21 million from company tax. This is something which is putting so much pressure on the Zambians. I urge the Government to reconsider the decision because the people of Zambia voted for us. So, we need to see how we can cushion –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

In view of the noise that is very strange, I suspend business for five minutes for people to check on what is happening. We do not want to be caught on the left foot.

Business was suspended from 1221 hours until 1237 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kampampi: Madam Speaker, before Business was suspended, I was about to conclude my debate.

Madam Speaker, the Government has allocated K6 billion towards arrears. Looking at the backlog of suppliers who are yet to be paid by the Government, that amount is very small. It is so sad that the amount of money which has been apportioned is so little to make a difference.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, again, there is a line on page 49, where the hon. Minister is expecting to collect about K8.5 billion for user fees, fines, and charges. This is a very sad situation to the people of Zambia. How can we as a Government expect to collect such a huge amount of K8.5 billion which is almost the same as what we are going to collect from the mining royalties? It is high time that Zambians are considered when it comes to apportioning these resources. Otherwise, Zambians are going to be heavily taxed in terms of fines and fees.

Madam Speaker, I submit.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, thank very much for allowing me and the people of Kalomo to look at the 2023 Budget Speech, which was rendered on 30^th September, 2022. Before I come to my speech, I want to comment on what the previous debaters said. One debater said that the idea of giving tax incentives is bad. The idea of allowing people to come into this country freely and giving them tax concessions is not good. It actually looks like we are concentrating very much on favouring people who do not live in our country, but that is not the case. If you milk a cow and you do not feed it, eventually, blood will come out and it will die.

Madam Speaker, you can make money in many ways. You can spend more on cultivating a big field and when time for harvesting comes, you will harvest more and make money. So, if the visa fees will stop many tourists from coming into the country, who will spend money on accommodation, food and travels? We will lose a lot of revenue if we do that. If the Government allows these people to come in freely, we will have more tourists who will spend their money in our shops, fuel, accommodation, travels and food. From these activities, we will be creating business and job opportunities in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, most countries that are successful rely on tourism because it is a number one revenue earner. Other countries allow foreigners to enter freely, but the foreigners pay indirectly, and the payments raise foreign exchange (FOREX), which the country needs badly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, somebody said that tax concessions are very good. However, if the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) produces 300,000 tonnes more than Zambia, which produces 800,000 metric tonnes, how can one say that producing less is better than producing more? It does not make sense. The one who produces more makes more money. So, one cannot say that aiming to produce more than we do is a bad idea. I do not understand that kind of economics.

Madam Speaker, another debater said that the 2022 Budget did not perform well. Page 4 of the Budget Speech states:

“Madam Speaker, the overall budget performance in 2022 is set to be one of the most favourable in many years. Revenues have so far exceeded the target while expenditures have been contained within the target. A very important aspect of the budget so far is that there has been a high degree of credibility and certainty in release of funds. Deviations from the Budget are within the permissible 15 percent variation.”

Madam Speaker, in the past ten years, in terms of Budget performance, the 2022 Budget has been the best. How has it been the best? Firstly, the currency stabilised, secondly, inflation went down from 22 per cent to about 9 or 8 per cent, and thirdly, the currency gained from K22 or K23 to about K15. There is the issue of grants. In the past, grants were never given but now, they are allocated to all the ministries.

Madam Speaker, in the previous regime, people in the ministries would be playing draft because they had nothing to do. There was no funding. People could not even travel or do their work because of lack of funds. The 2022 Budget performed well and that is what we call performance.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the Social Cash Transfer (SCT), money has been released on time whereas, in the previous Government, they went for about three years without the SCT. Those Budget performances were very bad. So, in the past ten to eleven years, the 2022 Budget has been the best. Let us say the truth as it is.

Madam Speaker, in order to budget, you need to look at what you have. I cried for a long time but the people of Kalomo got nothing from the previous Budgets. Now, this is what they are going to get. First of all, the students’ allowances which the previous Government removed are back. Is that not a gain on our part?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: The Constituency Development Fund (CDF) increased from K25.7 million to K28.3 million. Is that not a good thing? My people are going to benefit. We also have retirees who will be paid within three months of retirement. Is that not good? It has never happened in this country. With regards to Pay As You Earn (PAYE), people have been relieved from paying tax. The tax threshold has been increased from K4,500 to K4,800. All those who are getting up K4,800 will not be subjected to tax because we want to stimulate the economy. If you want to stimulate the economy, you reduce the taxes so that people can have more money.

Madam Speaker, we also have an addition of 3,000 health workers who will be employed. In my constituency, some people will be employed. Is that not good? Still on education, 4,500 additional teachers will be employed. In the last year of the PF reign, the whole of Kalomo District received only one teacher.

Mr Kapyanga: Question!

Mr Kamboni: Now, we have received many teachers. Why are people still saying this Budget is not good?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, under SCT, 400,000 people are going to benefit. This Government is taking care of the poor. The K300 that was allocated to beneficiaries have been increased. What are we looking for? All the major stakeholders are saying that for the past twelve years, this has been the best budget. The Bank of Zambia (BoZ) and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) are saying the same. The farmers are also happy. Why are some people not happy?

Hon. Government Members: Tell us!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, we are going to have 120 secondary schools. Even if the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is not here, I am sure, you will rely the message. Please, may you let him know that in Kalomo, we also want one secondary school. There is nothing wrong with asking. Others have not asked. Since I am the first one to ask, I am sure I will be given one secondary school. There are secondary schools that were not completed during the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) era, but the Patriotic Front (PF) still failed to finish constructing them. One good example is Sinazongwe Secondary School. When I pass through there, I even see snakes in the classrooms. The school was built but the PF could not complete it. This Budget is going to complete all the 115 secondary schools.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Ladies and gentlemen, what do you want?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, let us come to agriculture which is the main employer. Under irrigation, forty dams are going to be built. I cannot even finish the list because it is too long.

Mr Nkandu: Extension Officers!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, extension officers are going to be employed and motor bikes will be procured. Under manufacturing, electric cars will be manufactured on the Copperbelt and fertiliser will be produced in Chilanga. What else do people want? This is the best Budget I have ever seen in Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Quality! Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I just want your ruling on the claim that in the ten years of the PF’s regime, Kalomo has received only one teacher. Is that not misleading to the nation?

I see your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kamboni: I said in the last year of the PF rule.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: To your knowledge, hon. Member for Chilubi, how many teachers did the school receive?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Not ukusabaila.

Madam Speaker, I wish that I would come with statistics because he referred to the ten –

Interruptions

Mr Kamboni: I said in the last one year.

Mr Nkandu: You do not know the number!

Mr Fube: Yes, I do not know. I am a very fair person. So, I wish I could come with statistics to present to this House. I know it is not one teacher because I monitor the education bulletin every time.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very, hon. Member for Chilubi. The hon. Member for Kalomo Central is speaking on behalf of his constituency. He is there on the ground.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: He is better placed to give us the correct figures. Since the hon. Member for Chilubi has not produced any evidence to counter what the hon. Member for Kalomo is saying, it is difficult for me to make a ruling without the supporting evidence. So, I find nothing wrong with what the hon. Member for Kalomo has said.

Let us make progress.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I will be very objective in debating this Budget. Many have described it as a populist Budget. If the Budget is populist, it simply means that it is speaking to the needs of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, this Budget is trying to address what the people want. We remain to see the technicality of how this Budget will achieve that. The increment of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and its subsequent disbursement is a good and welcome measure. Clearly, this year, we have received the first quarter of the CDF. I know that some constituencies have received CDF for the second quarter. CDF for the third quarter is still sitting at the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, we have requested for the simplification of the guidelines to do with the utilisation of this fund. We are happy that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning acknowledged that there is need for that to be done. The employment of extra 3,000 teachers is a welcome move and it is in the Budget.

Madam Speaker, you will be interested to know that Mwila Primary School in my constituency has closed because there are no teachers even after this Government employed 35,000 teachers. As I speak, the school is closed. More than 300 pupils are in their houses waiting for teachers. We hope that the Government acts quickly.

Madam Speaker, I will also not shy away from talking about the revenue side of this Budget where I find there is a bit of a problem. We mostly concentrate on the expenditure because we want things done in our constituencies. We rarely look at where this money is coming from. Now, how do we mobilise resources? The Budget has suggested that much of this revenue will be domestically sourced. The sources of this domestic revenue are mostly Pay As You Earn (PAYE), Corporate Tax and other non-tax interventions.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Chama South, we are concerned. Why have we given so many tax concessions to the mines? I want to state that there is no evidence linking tax concessions and mine expansion in terms of higher production. There is no such evidence. I want to challenge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to check. There is no relationship between tax concessions, higher mining output and investment. There is nothing like that. There is a difference between consistence in mining policies and taxation. Is there something that is going on in the mining sector which we, Zambians do not know?

Madam Speaker, what if they give these tax concessions and the mines continue declaring losses? What if copper prices plummet? Are we going to achieve what we are supposed to achieve? Let me demonstrate something. When this Government gave tax concessions to the mines in the first Budget, instead of copper output going up, it contracted. They should check statistics. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that in the mining sector, we get what we are supposed to get. For the mining houses that are in a habit of lobbing for these concessions, we want to warn them that minerals of this country belong to the people of this country. It is just fair that they pay a fair share so that other sectors can be financed from resources that will come from the mining sector.

Madam Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 11^th October, 2022.

____________

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