Tuesday, 20^th September, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is still attending to other Government business, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Ambrose L. Lufuma, MP, will continue to act as the Leader of Government Business in the House from today, Tuesday, 20^th September, 2022, until further notice.

I thank you.

______

RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. M. HAIMBE, MINISTER OF JUSTICE AGAINST MS S. MWAMBA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KASAMA CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY ON WHETHER SHE WAS IN ORDER TO ATTEND THE SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE IN VIEW OF THEHON. MADAM SPEAKER’S RULING OF 7^TH DECEMBER, 2021, IN WHICH SHE DETERMINED THAT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT WHOSE SEATS WERE NULLIFIED WOULD ONLY RETURN TO THE HOUSE UPON THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT REVERSING THE DECISION AND ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR C. ANDELEKI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KATOMBOLA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, ON WHETHER THE HOUSE WAS IN ORDER TO ALLOW MR K. MUKOSA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHINSALI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AND  MR M. KAFWAYA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUNTE PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, TO BE IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: This is my ruling on a point of order raised by Hon. M. Haimbe, Minister of Justice against Ms S. Mwamba, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central Parliamentary Constituency, on whether she was in order to attend the sittings of the House in view of the Hon. Madam Speaker’s ruling of 7^th December, 2021, in which she determined that hon. Members of Parliament whose seats were nullified would only return to the House upon the Constitutional Court reversing the decision and on a point of order raised by Mr C. Andeleki, the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Parliamentary Constituency, on whether the House was in order to allow Mr K. Mukosa, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali Parliamentary Constituency, and Mr M. Kafwaya, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte Parliamentary Constituency, to be in the House.

Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Thursday, 24^th March, 2022, when the House was considering a matter of urgent public importance raised byMr J. Chibuye, the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. M. Haimbe, MP, Minister of Justice, raised a point of order.The gist of his point of order was whether Ms S. Mwamba, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central Parliamentary Constituency, was in order to attend the sittings of the House in view of the Hon. Madam Speaker’s ruling of 7^th December, 2021, in which she determined that hon. Members of Parliament whose seats were nullified would only return to the House upon the Constitutional Court reversing the decision of the High Court.

Hon. Members, the following day on Friday, 25^th March, 2022, when the House was considering the ministerial statement by Hon. Dr S. Musokotwane, MP, Minister of Finance and National Planning, another point of order was raised by Mr C. Andeleki, the hon. Member of Parliament for KatombolaParliamentary Constituency, on whether the House was in order to allow Mr K. Mukosa, MP and Mr M. Kafwaya, MP, to be in the House.

In her immediate response to the points of order, the Hon. First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling to effectively study the issues since they raised a constitutional matter. I have since studied the matter and as the two points of order raise the same or similar issues, I have decided to combine them into one ruling.

Hon. Members, the two points order, raise the issue of the effect of the Constitutional Court judgment in the matter between the Law Association of Zambia versus the Attorney-General 2021/CCZ/0051on my ruling delivered on 7^th December, 2021, wherein, I determined that hon. Members of Parliament whose seats were nullified would only return to the House upon the Constitutional Court reversing the decision of the High Court.

Hon. Members, I will begin by giving a brief background of the two points of order. On 7^th December, 2021, Idelivered a ruling on the point of order raisedDr A. Katakwe, thehon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi East Parliamentary Constituency, against Mr B. C. Lusambo, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi Parliamentary Constituency, on whether Mr B. C. Lusambo, MP, was in order to remain in the House following the nullification of his seat by the High Court. In my ruling, I determined that Mr B. C. Lusambo, MP was out of order to remain in the House after the nullification of his election by the High Court.

In view of that ruling, I guided that all hon. Members of Parliament whose election was nullified by the decision of the High Court, whether or not such decision had been appealed against, should forthwith not take part in any Parliamentary business. Only those who will be successful in their appeals in the Constitutional Court will be allowed back in the House and take part in Parliamentary Business.

Hon. Members, as a result of that ruling, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) commenced an action in the Constitutional Court by Origination Summonsin the matter between The Law Association of Zambia v The Attorney-General, 2021/CCZ/0051.In that case, the Law Association of Zambia (Applicant) invited the Constitutional Court to determine the following questions:

“1.          whether Article 72(2)(h) of the Constitution of Zambia is applicable where a seat held by a Member of Parliament becomes vacant after an election has been nullified following the hearing and determination of an election petition in line with Article 73(1) and (2) of the Constitution of Zambia;

1. whether under Article 73(4) of the Constitution of Zambia a Member of Parliament whose seat has been nullified by the High Court and who has appealed the Constitutional Court against such nullification can continue to hold their seat in the National Assembly pending the outcome of the appeal.”

I will focus on the response to the second question by the court because it is the one which is relevant to my ruling. In that regard, the court pointed out, at page J38, of the judgment, as follows:

“The second question is whether Article 73 (4) is applicable to this matter on appeal in this court. Put differently, does a Member of Parliament whose seat is nullified continue to hold his seat pending determination of the appeal before this court by virtue of Article 73 (4)? Our answer is in the affirmative for the reasons given below.

Taking the literal rule of interpretation as argued by the respondent would mean that an appeal to this court would not forestall a by-election under Article 57 of the Constitution following the nullification of an election petition. In this scenario, the possibility would arise of a new Member of Parliament being elected into office while an appeal was pending determination by this court. This in our view would result in absurdity and cannot be what the framers of the Constitution intended.”

Hon. Members, further, at J41 to 42, of the judgment, the court pointed out as follows:

“It is our considered view that Article 73 (4) which provides for the retention of the seat in the National Assembly pending determination of an election petition should also have expressly provided for the retention of the seat pending the determination of an appeal to this court. We are fortified by the fact that after the High Court nullifies an election, there is a decision which can be executed and which may trigger a by-election under Article 57. Hence, the need for the purposive interpretation of Article 73 (4) to apply to the appeal stage. We urge the Legislature to make appropriate amendments to the law to cater for the appeal stage in clear terms.

That said, on a purposive interpretation of Article 73 (3) and (4) read with Articles 128 (1) (d) and 57 of the Constitution, we hold that a Member of Parliament whose election has been nullified by the High Court and appeals to this court, by operation of the law retains the seat in Parliament pending determination of the appeal.”

As a result of this decision by the court, Members of Parliament whose seats were nullified by the High Court resumed attending Parliamentary business. It is against this background that the two points of order were raised.

Hon. Members, in his point of order, Hon. M. Haimbe, MP, recalled interalia, my ruling of 7^th December, 2021, that the Members of Parliament, whose seats were nullified by the High Court, were not to attend Parliamentary business until the Constitutional Court reversed that nullification.  He further stated that in view of the fact that my ruling had not been vacated, and in keeping with the doctrine of exclusive cognisance, my ruling remained valid.

Hon. Members, the principle of exclusive cognisance gives Parliament the power to regulate its own internal procedures. This power is provided under Article 77 (1) of the Constitution, and Section 34 of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

In that regard, Article 77 (1) of the Constitution provides as follows:

 

“77.(1)    Subject to this Article and Article 78, the National Assembly shall regulate its own procedure and make Standing Orders for the conduct of its business.”

Further, Section 34 of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act provides as follows:

“34.        Neither the Assembly, the Speaker nor any officer shall be subject to the jurisdiction of any court in respect of the exercise of any power conferred on or vested in the Assembly, the Speaker, or such officer by or under the Constitution, the Standing Orders, and this Act.”

My understanding of the import of Article 77 (1) of the Constitution, as read with Section 34 of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, is that the National Assembly has power, and jurisdiction to conduct its internal affairs without interference from anybody including the court. As a matter of fact, the courts have previously acknowledged the doctrine of exclusive cognisance.

Hon. Members, it should, however, be noted that the doctrine of exclusive cognisance does not make my decision or that of the National Assembly beyond the reach of courts. In that regard, the actions and decisions of the National Assembly, as well as that of the Speaker and other Presiding Officers, are subject to judicial review. However, it should be noted that judicial review is only exercisable after the National Assembly or the Speaker or other Presiding Officers have performed a function or exercised a power in question.

Hon. Members, let me now address concerns raised by Mr C. Andeleki, MP’s point of order and also the relevant portion of the judgment where the court asked itself a question. The question the court asked itself is: Does a Member of Parliament whose seat is nullified continue to hold his seat pending determination of the appeal before the Constitutional Court by virtue of Article 73 (4)?

Hon. Members, the court’s response to the question I have just highlighted was in the affirmative. In that regard, the court pointed out that taking the literal rule of interpretation as argued by the respondent would mean that an appeal to this court would not forestall a by-election under Article 57 of the Constitution following the nullification of an election petition. In this scenario, the possibility would arise of a new Member of Parliament being elected into office while an appeal was pending determination by this court. This, in the court’s view, would result in absurdity and cannot be what the framers of the Constitution intended. The court, therefore, resorted to purposive interpretation of Article 73 (4) in addressing the question posed by the applicant.

Hon. Members, the court further pointed out at J40 to 42, as follows:

“Article 73 (4) clearly does not in literal sense state what becomes of a Parliamentary seat whilst a matter is before this court on appeal. Article 73 (4) should be read in light of provisions of Articles 73 (3), 57 and 128 (1) (d) of the Constitution. This is to ensure that Article73 (3) is made effectual and not rendered nugatory where a by-election may follow a nullification by the High Court while the appeal is pending before this court and which appeal may result in setting aside the decision of the High Court.

It is our considered view that Article 73 (4) which provides for the retention of a seat in the National Assembly pending determination of an election petition should also have expressly provided for the retention of the seat pending the determination of an appeal to this court. We are fortified by the fact that after the High Court nullifies an election, there is a decision which can be executed and which may trigger a by-election under Article 57. Hence, the need for purposive interpretation of Article 73 (4) to apply to appeal stage. We urge the Legislature to make appropriate amendments to the law to cater for the appeal stage in clear terms.

That said, on a purposive interpretation of Article 73 (3) and (4) read with Articles 128 (1) (d) and 57 of the Constitution, we hold that a Member of Parliament whose election has been nullified by the High Court and appeals to this Court, by operation of the law retains the seat in Parliament pending the determination of the appeal.”

Hon. Members, as you are aware, Zambia has embraced constitutional democracy and, therefore, subscribes to the concept of constitutional supremacy and not parliamentary supremacy. As a result, the country has also embraced the doctrine of separation of powers. This doctrine has been formulated to prevent abuse of power. It is argued that political liberty is to be found only when there is no abuse of power by those in authority. Therefore, in order to prevent this abuse, it is necessary that the functions of Government, namely the formulation, application and enforcement of the law are kept separate and performed by three organs of the State independent of each other.

Hon. Members, running side-by-side with the doctrine of separation of powers is the concept of checks and balances. Checks and balances, loosely put, is a system that allows each branch of the Government to amend or veto acts of another branch, so as to prevent any one branch from exerting too much power. For that reason, the Judiciary has inherent power to check and veto parliamentary excesses.Likewise, Parliament has the power to check and veto judicial excesses.

Hon. Members, under the doctrine of separation of powers, the function of making or enacting laws is an exclusive role of the Legislature. Whereas, the function of interpreting the law is the preserve of the Judiciary, and in interpreting the law, the courts usually apply canons of statutory interpretation to arrive at a logical and just position in determining the question before the courts.  In this vein, the canon of statutory interpretation used by the courts is the purposive approach. This approach, however, does not give the courts the latitude to assume the functions of the Legislature.The purposive approach should not be applied in gross, but within the limited permissible parameters.

Thus, in the case of Sri Ram Saha verse State of West Bengal and Others, Civil Appeal No. 5110 of 1999, the Supreme Court of India held as follows:

“It is well-settled principle of interpretation that a statute is to be interpreted on its plain reading; in the absence of any doubt or difficulty arising out of such reading of a statute defeating or frustrating the object and purpose of enactment, it must be read and understood by its plain reading. However, in case of any difficulty or doubt arising in interpreting a provision of an enactment, courts will interpret such a provision keeping in mind the objects sought to be achieved and the purpose intended to be served by such a provision so as to advance the cause for which the enactment is brought into force. If two interpretations are possible, the one which promotes or favours the object of the Act and purpose it serves, is to be preferred.At any rate, in the guise of purposive interpretation, the courts cannot rewrite a statute.A purposive interpretation may permit a reading of the provision consistent with the purpose and object of the Act but the courts cannot legislate and enact the provision either by creating or taking away substantial rights by stretching or straining a piece of legislation.”

In deciding the Sri Ram Saha case, the Supreme Court of India referred to its previous decision in Prem Nath L. Ganesh verse Prem Nath, L. Ram Nath, AIR1963 Punj 62. At paragraph 23, the judgment reads as follows:

“We have said enough and we may say it again that where the legislature clearly declares its intent in the scheme and language of a statute, it is the duty of the court to give full effect to the same without scanning its wisdom or policy, and without engrafting, adding or implying anything which is not congenial to or consistent with such expressed intent of the law-giver.”

Hon. Members, in view of the foregoing, I am of the considered view that the Constitutional Court stretched the purposive interpretation approach beyond the permissible parameters when it held that an hon. Member of Parliament whose election has been nullified by the High Court and appeals to the Constitutional Court, by operation of the law retains the seat in Parliament pending determination of the appeal.

As has been noted by the court itself at page J 41, Article 73 (4), which provides for the retention of a seat in the National Assembly pending the determination of an election petition, does not apply to the appeal stage. If the Legislature intended that an hon. Member whose seat has been nullified by the High Court should retain his/her seat pending determination of the appeal before the Constitutional Court, it would have expressly provided for that. In that regard, to hold in the manner the court decided, clearly, amounts to legislating from the bench. This practice is not only detested, but also frowned upon because the courts have no constitutional mandate to legislate.Legislating is a preserve of Parliament and the courts should stay away from the temptation of assuming this role.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, be that as it may, the decision of the court in the Law Association of Zambia verse the Attorney-General, 2021/CCZ/0051, is binding on me and the National Assembly. In that regard, by virtue of that decision, the hon. Members of Parliament whose seats have been nullified by the High Court and have appealed to the Constitutional Court shall be allowed to take part in parliamentary business.

I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

_______

MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR MTAYACHALO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON VACANT POSITIONS AT THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION OF ZAMBIA

Mr Mtayachalo(Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance,Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I wish to raise is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, a transparent and accountable electoral process is a yardstick for a thriving democratic dispensation. In this regard, stakeholders have raised serious concerns on how the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is operating without the chairperson, the vice-chairperson and the substantive chief electoral officer.

Madam Speaker, the Electoral Act No. 25 of 2016 clearly outlines the composition and functions of the ECZ. This composition includes the chairperson, the vice-chairperson and not more than three members appointed by the President. It is now almost three months and the ECZ has not had a chairperson or even a vice-chairperson and I feel this is a violation of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution clearly outlines that the Chairperson of the ECZ shall chair all meetings and monitor the daily operations of the ECZ. Now, everyone is asking, who is running the ECZ minus the chairperson and the vice-Chairperson because a quorum is supposed to be three members of the board.

Madam Speaker, managing an electoral process in a manner which undermines the credibility of the ECZ is a genesis for political instability, and Zambia is renowned as a country where there is peace and unity. If no urgent measures are taken to correct things at the ECZ, I think we may breed political upheavals in this country.

I, therefore, seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

MR TWASA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KASENENGWA, ON THE MINISTER OF TOURISM, HON. SIKUMBA, ON HUMAN/ANIMAL CONFLICTSIN THE EASTERN PROVINCE

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this chance to rise on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, this matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Tourism. Last week, the hon. Member for Chama North andthe Member of Lumezi, Hon. Zulu, rose on points of order on human/animal conflicts in their areas.

Your ruling, Madam Speaker, was very clear. You said that for as long as people live in Game Management Areas (GMA), human/animal conflicts will always exist. However, in the recent past, so many people have been attacked by wild animals away from GMAs. I remember when the hon. Minister of Energy travelled to Chipata to launch the fuel depot, I travelled in the night. Just after Luangwa, we found two lions in the middle of the night and that sent shivers in me. I travel to Chipata at night most of the times. I was unsettled until I reached home because I remembered the times we stopped anywhere, in case oneamongst us wanted to relieve himself/herself andI thought to myself, what if we stopped where lions are. Sometimes, we travel with females, and to avoid making noise as you relieve yourself, you go into the bush.

Laughter

Mr Twasa: Thewomen go toone side and the men go the other side of the road in the bush and the thought that came to my mind was what if there are lions in the bush? While I was recovering from that trauma, two days later, a man in Lundazi was attacked by a leopard and, luckily, he was strong enough and he killed that leopard.

Madam Speaker, last week, a man in Mumbwa was attacked by a leopard, and this matter was even reported on Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) news.We thank God the man survived, but we have not received a report as to whether that big cat was hunted down or not. We may ignore these things but I am afraid, we will regret if this happens closer to home or once we see these attacks ending up in fatalities. When I look around, I do not see any hon. Member of Parliament who can fight that beast apart from, maybe, the retired gym trainer, the hon. Member for Kafulafuta.

Laughter

Mr Twasa: Otherwise, we may end up with fatalities.

Madam Speaker, these attacks are happening away from GMAs and we cannot ignore these occurrences. I would like to find out from thehon. Minister of Tourism why so many cats are roaming around in the communities that we live in? Is it because they have not been cropped in a long time and the population has grown so much that they have even escaped from GMAs or is it because there is just not enough care by the wildlife officials? We want the hon. Minister of Tourism to issue a statement and assure us because I do not think we are safe. When I am traveling to Chipata now, one hand holds the door while the other hand attends to me ...

Interruptions

Mr Twasa:…because of fear.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, we need to be addressed by the hon. Minister of Tourism.

Madam Speaker: Please, as you raise your urgent matters of public importance, be precise and to the point. You should not start debating and telling stories.

Thank you, hon. Member for Kasenengwa.

MR MUTINTA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ITEZHI-TEZHI, ON THE MINISTER OF TOURISM, HON. SIKUMBA, ON HUMAN/ANIMAL CONFLICTS

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-tezhi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mutinta:Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Itezhi-tezhi an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance, unfortunately, also on human/animal conflicts.

Madam Speaker, a sixty-eight year old man of Itezhi-tezhi in Moomba Village is nursing a broken spine and is at theUniversity Teaching Hospital (UTH) after being attacked by an elephant on Friday. Yesterday and today, all the pupils at Keela Primary School did not goto school andthe newly recruited teachers are not going for work in fear of a wounded elephant in the village.

Madam Speaker, just like the previous hon. Member said, you asked thehon. Minister of Tourism to address these issues.Alas, we are not progressing. Something needs to be done. We will not manage to foot bills for our community members when they are at UTH. As I speak, the man inUTH has been told that the Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI)machine is not working and he is in pain.

Madam Speaker, we need a serious ruling and the hon. Minister of Tourism should give us a lasting solution. Most of the solutions he has been giving us have been sounding very vague. Can we, please, be guided on how we are going to address this issue so that our people can be safe.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

MR MUNG’ANDU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA SOUTH, ON THE MINISTER OF TOURISM, HON. SIKUMBA, ON HUMAN/ANIMAL CONFLICTS

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mung’andu:Madam Speaker, I am a very sad man as I raise this urgent matter of public importance. If we the men are not looked after well, we will deplete in this country. Not only are we under siege from the sodomists but also from wild animals.

Madam Speaker, in Chama South, the situation is becoming unbearable. Last week, I raised this matter and you ruled that the hon. Minister of Tourism should come and issue a ministerial statement, but looking at the events –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member! Without curtailing you, I think there are enough hon. Members who have raised this point. I do not know if by you raising it also, it will add on the importance but if it is on human/animal conflicts,I have taken note. Is it possible for you to wait for my ruling on the matter or do you want to continue?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I just want to conclude.It is important that this matter is put on record.

Madam Speaker: Proceed.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, yesterday, in Chief Tembwe, Mr Lafuti Zimba of Chikazika Village, who was seventy-five years old, was killed by an elephant on his way from fishing about 3 km from the villages. The elephant attacked him at 1000 hours and it was not in the evening. The hon. Minister of Tourism seems to be taking these issues casually. I would like to find out whether in the New Dawn Government, animals have become more important than human beings such that our people are being killed countrywide and nothing is being done?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker, before more people lose lives because of these animals. We should not wait until your own hon. Members are killed for the Government to take action.

REV. KATUTA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHIENGE, ON THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, HON. MTOLO, ON THE FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Rev. Katuta:  Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the voice of Chienge the opportunity to rise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, I rise on this important matter directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, Chienge is a rural area and people depend on farming for their livelihood. The names of the farmers who be given inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP)are out. In certain co-operatives where there were thirty people, only four people will get the fertiliser. Many people, including the disabled, have been left out. What criterion did the ministry use to reduce the number of people in Chienge who should get the fertiliser and other farming inputs?

MS NYIRENDA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUNDAZI, ON THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, HON. MTOLO, ON THE FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Lundazi the opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture. It is not too different from the one the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge raised.

Madam Speaker, information on the ground is that those who are on the National Authority Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) payroll and those who are on the Social Cash Transfer Programme cannot be admitted on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Agriculture give guidance so that our people in Lundazi know who really deserves to be on the FISP?

MR CHEWE, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, HON.TAYALI, ON THE ACCIDENT WHERE TWENTY-THREE PEOPLE WERE KILLED

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, this matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics. Over the weekend, there was an accident in the Northern Province where it was reported that over twenty United Church of Zambia (UCZ) members died in a road accident. The hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics has remained quiet about that accident, yet the Zambian people are mourning. He is comfortably seated and is smiling. Is he in order not to assure the Zambian people of their safety when travelling to where they are going?

I need your serious guidance on this matter, Madam Speaker.

MR MABETA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANKOYO, ON THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION, HON.SYAKALIMA, ON TEACHER RECRUITMENT

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, in 2019 and 2020, the Government recruited thousands of teachers, but did not put them on the payroll, and I have been following up this issue. The Government tried to create opportunities for 811 teachers, but the number of the recruited teachers on the payroll has remained high.

Madam Speaker, after the Government employed the 30,000 teachers, there could be some vacancies created because some of the recruited teachers did not report. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Education to consider replacing those teachers who did not report, since the deadline was on Friday, to accommodate the teachers who were not given a chance to be put on the payroll.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Members, as we raise matters of urgent public importance, let us look at the criterion. There is a criterion that we have to comply with for a matter to be admitted. I will start with the last one by the hon. Member for Kankoyo.

Hon. Member for Kankoyo, the matter that you have raised does not qualify to be raised –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as I am delivering my ruling, avoid interjecting.

So, that matter, hon. Member for Kankoyo, does not qualify to be raised under Standing Orders 134 and 135 and, therefore, is not admitted. You are aware of our procedure. If you want to raise a question, you can put in a question to the hon. Minister of Education to address your concern.

I will now deal with the matters raised by the hon. Member for Chienge and the hon. Member for Lundazi together.

Hon. Members, we have had the hon. Minister of Agriculture come to address this matter in this House even during this Meeting. Last week, the hon. Minister answered a question raised by one of the hon. Members concerning the distribution of fertiliser. I am wondering whether the hon. Members were in attendance or they did not get the full story of what the hon. Minister is doing with regard to the distribution of fertiliser and the criterion being used by the hon. Minister in this regard. So, hon. Members for Chienge and Lundazi, I suggest that you engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture to clear your concerns, if you have any, or if you were not satisfied with his response before this honourable House last week when he was tackling this issue.

I move to the next one.

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, indeed, we learnt from the newspaper and television stories that a number of women who were travelling from Muchinga Province were involved in an accident, and I think about twenty-three people died from that accident. Since the matter has been raised and it involves the loss of life, I direct the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics to come before this honourable House to render a ministerial statement on this matter on Thursday, so that the hon. Members are informed of what transpired, and through them, the people of Zambia. The hon. Minister should also tell us the measures being taken to ensure that we avoid accidents, especially that it involves the loss of life of twenty-three people, who were women, meaning we have lost because women look after families. So, the members of their families have lost their bread winners. So, the hon. Minister should come to the House and give details of what happened.

I will now go to the first matter raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, on how the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is functioning without achairperson, vice-chairperson and chief electoral officer.

Hon. Member, whereas the matter that you raised is very important and we need substantive office holders to be in office in order to safe guide our democracy, but you will realise that the appointment of the officers you referred to is a process that has to be undertaken. However, no catastrophe will immediately result because of not havinga chairperson, vice-chairperson orchief electoral officer at the ECZ,although the question you raised is very important. I am sure the Executive has taken note of the point that we need to have substantive office holders in those positions. Unfortunately, the matter does not qualify to be raised under Standing Orders 134 and 135.

Let me go to the matters raised by the hon. Member for Kasenengwa, the hon. Member for Itezhi-tezhi and the hon. Member for Chama South.

This issue has been raised before this House through matters of urgent public importance and it is a concern that we have lost lives because of human/animal conflicts. Of course, in Africa, we live in a jungle. We live with animals, but the life of human beings is more important than that of animals.The hon. Minister of Tourism and the Executive need to put in place measures to protect people from being attacked by animals.

In this regard, I direct the hon. Minister of Tourism to come to this House, to render a ministerial statement on these matters in terms of what exactly is happening on the ground,the measures being taken to ensure that we do not continue losing lives through human/animal conflicts and the measures that have been put in placein order to educate communities on how they can live in this ‘jungle’ of ours. Africa is a jungle and there are wild animals such as elephants and lions. So, how do we live with the animals that we try to promote through tourism so that tourists can come and watch them and admire them. However, at the same time, people need to survive and live. Imagine a man fighting with a tiger or an elephant. That is a no match at all. So, the hon. Minister should come to the House this Friday, to deliver a ministerial statement on this matter as guided.

That concludes matters of urgent public importance. Let us make progress.

I have permitted the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to issue a ministerial statement. This follows a directive that was given to the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services to come before this House, to issue a ministerial statement on sodomy and other related matters. In view of the urgency of the matter and the concerns expressed by hon. Members, and the community at large, I have permitted the hon. Minister to come earlier than directed and to issue a ministerial statement today.

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER IN ZAMBIA

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to issue a ministerial statement on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) in Zambia. First and foremost, I want to categorically state that Zambia is a Christian nation and its governance is anchored on Christian values and the rule of law.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the law in this country is very clear, that any sexual practice different from what our society has considered over a period of time as normal or the correct practice, and particularly that which is against our laws, is illegal and criminal. Our laws, in particular, state the following:

1. Section 155 of the Penal Code, states inter alia that, any sexual intercourse between men constitutes a criminal offence;
2. Section 156 of the Penal Code also criminalises any attempt to commit unnatural offences prohibited under Section 155; and
3.  Section 158 of the Penal Code criminalises acts of gross indecency both between men and between women.

Madam Speaker, my ministry, under the guidance of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia and Commander-in-Chief, has ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... taken measures, and the Zambia Police Service is very active on this matter and is doing everything possible to sensitise the citizenry on the criminal aspect of these vices and the implication on the individuals involved, and the moral and traditional erosion the vices may cause on our society.

Madam Speaker, in this vein, the Zambia Police Service has recorded a total of eighteen cases of sodomy countrywide from 1^st January, 2022 to 20^th September, 2022, which is today. The following are the statistics and the actions taken:

Province/Place           No. of cases                   Arrests made                 Under investigations

Lusaka                                  7                                    5                                             2

Copperbelt                           7                                    6                                             1

Muchinga                             1                                    1

TAZARA Division              1                                    1

in Mpika                                                           (and convicted for seven

                                                                            years imprisonment with

                                                                            hard labour)

Eastern                                 1                                    1

Western                                1                                    1

Madam Speaker, the police service is following these matters with keen interest, as it pursues the four suspects who are still under investigations; two in Lusaka, one on the Copperbelt and one from the Western Province, respectively.

Madam Speaker, the Government has noted, with concern, the rise in the statistics of cases of sodomy and any other form of sexual intercourse against the order of nature. However, we wish to note that these statistics are as a result of the sensitisations that have been made pertaining to the criminality of these activities and members of the public are coming forth to report these matters.

Madam Speaker, further, you may recall that on Tuesday, 17^th May, 2022, in Lusaka, some named embassies mounted the rainbow flag, which symbolises LGBT pride and social movements, at their respective embassies on the aforementioned date, in commemoration of values and principles of their respective countries on human rights. When contacted by the Government, the embassies assured the Government that there was no intent to disregard Zambia’s cultural norms and Christian values, as enshrined in the Constitution, to which their countries have due respect. The embassies regretted the inconvenience that could have been caused by their flying of the rainbow flag albeit on their premises which, in accordance with the Vienna Convention, are inviolable properties.

Madam Speaker, in another incident, on 23^rd August 2022, there was an event in Lusaka that was dubbed ‘Lusaka July’, which was organised by PR Girl Media. The purpose of this event, which was launched in 2016, under the reign of the Patriotic Front (PF), …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … was to bring together lifestyle enthusiasts and business leaders in an afternoon of networking at a fashion polo event. The organisers of the event approached the Ministry of Tourism to partner with it to market the event, as a fashion show, and promote fashion tourism. The Government, through the Ministry of Tourism, participated in this event by launching it.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government did not sponsor the ‘Lusaka July’ event, as has been purported in the media, but launched it on the premise of promoting fashion tourism. It had little or no control over the extent to which participants at this event would express themselves. Information was provided that the event would attract regional visitors, which was going to be an opportunity to market Zambia as a tourist destination of choice. The Government was not in any way responsible for who attended the event, what they wore and financial sponsorship was not provided.

Madam Speaker, the Government, therefore, warns that anyone found practising or promoting any of the said acts shall be liable to prosecution in the courts of law. Further, the Government shall ensure that such behaviour and conduct is prevented, and that national morals and values are adhered to in order to preserve our Christian values.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. As we ask, let us be precise.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister responsible for home affairs and internal security. Indeed, the matters the hon. Minister spoke about are raising serious concerns among our citizens.

Madam Speaker, before I pose my question to the hon. Minister, as his predecessor, I would like to say that this matter is not as we see it. It is a big one. I recall that when two citizens were arrested and prosecuted in Kapiri, and were later pardoned, we were bombarded right, left and centre. Whilst attending a general meeting in Geneva, I had all these multi-national organisations come in to discuss the same matter. So, when I say this matter is not an easy one, it is not an easy one. We need to be very firm and resolved.

Madam Speaker, when a public event is taking place, it is subject to the Public Order Act, which is in place now. Ideally, investigative agencies monitor these activities. When those people were expressing what they were expressing in public, the security system must have been alerted. What does the hon. Minister think really transpired because those people should have been dealt with whilst that event was still going on? If we have an alert security system in the country, why does he think that event was allowed to go on until it was picked on social media and people started complaining about it?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, this event started in 2016, under the PF, and my colleague was the Minister of Home Affairs at the time. I want to state here, without any fear of contradiction, that the activities that took place this year were not different from those that took place in 2016, 2017 and 2018 when the PF was ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no difference.

Madam Speaker, one thing we have to take note of is that for it to be a criminal offence, if you are talking about gayism, there must have been unnatural acts that took place at that event. Do we have any evidence to show that there was gayism and sodomy at that function or that unnatural acts were committed? If there is no evidence, the police cannot act. If members of the public who witnessed that event have evidence that unnatural sexual intercourse took place there, let them report the matter to the police and appropriate action will be taken. We do not act on speculation. We cannot do that. We rely on evidence.

Madam Speaker, you have noted that I have reported cases of sodomy, which have been acted on because we have evidence, and there were reports which were made to the police. If there are no reports pertaining to gayism and unnatural acts that took place at the Lusaka July, there is nothing we can do. If there is evidence, please, report the matter to the police and we shall take appropriate action.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this important matter.

Madam Speaker, what is the ministry doing to those men who pretend to be women, wear dresses and makeup, and also kiss? On social media, we heard a man saying that he serviced his husband well and that his husband is dead, and that is all over social media. Are we, as a country, not supposed to take charge? I rest my case.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we are the leaders of this country. We should not act on impulse and emotions. We should act based on evidence. The mere fact that a man is wearing a dress does not make him gay. We saw them here. Dresses are worn by people. You cannot say because someone is wearing a dress then that person is gay. You cannot say that. The other day, the hon. Member for Chilubi was wearing a m’sisi. What are you saying to the nation?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: That is fashion. However, if they engage in acts that are proscribed by law, appropriate action will be taken. If somebody decides to wear makeup or wear a tie, you cannot say that person is gay. One female hon. Member wore a tie the other day, which is attire for men, but can we say that she is gay? The answer is no. We must be specific.

Madam Speaker, one thing I must mention is that those people who attended the Lusaka July event are your children. You know how they dress and what they do, why do you not report them to the police? We must be responsible, as leaders. If we want to nip this issue in the bud, it must start with ourselves. We are the fathers and mothers of these children. Most of those who are supposedly gay in this country, from what we know, are from affluent families. Let us not pretend. When you come here, you keep quiet and pretend that your children are not doing those things. Those children who are doing those things are from your homes. Let us start ensuring that our children adhere to the morals of our country.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: We must be responsible. There is no way you can tell me that those children or men and women are from Mars. They are from our houses. We know what happens in our homes. Let us wait and see whether any one of us will report our children over such conduct. Ifwecheckthe children who were at that event onthe Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV), you will find that some of them where from among us here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for recognising me to ask a follow-up question, following the elaborate ministerial statement delivered by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, I am entitled to my own opinion, as I ask this question. I have noticed that the trend of what we are actually debating over this afternoon is very similar to the gassing exercise, which was clearly launched by unscrupulous people, arguably by the Patriotic Front (PF) during its regime. The orchestrators of this scheme were the very first ones to stand on the platform to try and point accusing fingers for political expediency and the pattern has continued. When you look at social media, on the Floor of this House and at any other forum, you will realise that the people jumping highest to shout lion –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon Member!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can you ask your question on the point of clarification. Do not debate. If you want to debate, somebody can move a Motion and then you will have enough time to debate. However, for now, ask questions on points of clarification on the statement that the hon. Minister issued.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your counsel. I always treasure it because it helps me frame my questions.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the pattern is no different from the gassing exercise. Look around, if you are intelligent enough to just check who is perpetuating the whole of this story, it is men associated with some people seated on your left-hand side of this House.

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, what can stop me –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I have guided. Please, resume your seats. I have taken note of why you all want to raise points of order. By all of you standing at the same time does not make any difference.

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, I have guided. Please, let us remain relevant to the point that is being discussed on the Floor of the House. Ask a question on a point of clarification on the ministerial statement. Do not bring in other issues because this will just result in some form of anarchy and there will be disorder in the House, which I am not going to allow.

Hon. Member, may you proceed. If you have no question, then we move to the next person.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I always treasure your guidance. Let me conclude my question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister referred to the fact that investigations have now been launched and there are cases that have been reported to the police and they have some evidence. Among those cases that are being investigated, do we not have any men who are pointing towards these men on your left-hand side?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mundubile: It is unacceptable. We will not be addressed like that.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mundubile: No, it is unacceptable. That is stupidity. It is unacceptable.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, withdraw those remarks and apologise.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the reference to the people seated on your left-hand side but the substantive question –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, you are now out of order. Let us not trivialise these issues. Let us look at them seriously and give them the seriousness that they deserve. The people of Zambia are concerned about this issue.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I do not want to talk over your voices. If it is not of interest, then we move to another point. I am trying to give guidance. You raised this point and the hon. Minister was asked to come and render a ministerial statement. We are making fun of the whole thing and the people out there are listening to the debate, and the manner in which you are debating.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the procedure in this House is that when a good hon. Minister, like the one who is on the Floor right now, delivers a good statement, like he has done, you give the hon. Members time to ask follow-up questions, and that time is supposed to be properly spent, as it is always done in the House. Today, the hon. Member for Zambezi East decided to waste time when there is very serious business on the Floor. The time has counted, yet for nothing.

Madam Speaker, will the hon. Members not ask follow-up questions on such a good statement issued by the hon. Minister, which is of serious public importance, because time has been wasted deliberately by the hon. Colleague?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, I have already guided. The hon. Member for Zambezi East was out of order and that is why I did not even call on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to respond to him.

In terms of time, I have my own mechanism. I have already informed the members of staff to add ten minutes. So, please, as we ask questions, time is also squandered by hon. Members debating instead of asking questions on points of clarification. If hon. Members just stick to asking questions on points of clarification precisely to the point instead of debating, then we will use the time properly for the purpose it is intended.

Please, as guided, if any hon. Member is going to debate, he/she will be ruled out of order and his/her question will not be answered.

May the hon. Member for Bwacha continue.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement. This statement is very serious and should have come as in yesterday.

Madam Speaker, my question is: Has the Government tried to find out –

Madam Speaker: Order! Stop the clock.

A point of order is raised by the hon. Member for Chitambo. What is the point of order?

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, the point of order is on the hon. Member for Zambezi East, whom you asked to apologise when he was referring to the people on your left.

Madam Speaker, on your left, there sits some hon. Ministers, who include the Leader of the Opposition and serious hon. Members. You asked the hon. Member for Zambezi East to apologise to the people on the left, which he has not done.

If he does not apologise, Madam Speaker, we shall be compelled to write to you so that he can come and apologise to the hon. Members on the left on the Floor of this House. This is a very serious accusation he has made on us on the left, including your hon. Ministers.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I guided that the hon. Member for Zambezi East withdraws the statement and apologises. In view of the interruption that happened, I heard him withdraw the statement, but I did not hear him apologise.

May the hon. Member, please, apologise.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I know this House is a House of rules –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Zambezi East, please, can you render your apology so that we make progress.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on what I should apologise for because I withdrew the statement, and it means the statement was expunged. So, what will I apologise for?

Madam Speaker: Order!

You withdrew the statement you made but now apologise for having made that statement.

Mr Kambita: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am not shy of apologising.

Hon. Members: Lion!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I sincerely withdraw the statement in reference to those shouting “lion, lion!” to be responsible for this same news which we are discussing here. I withdraw the statement and I apologise to them, but my opinion still remains.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: You are out of order!

May the hon. Member for Bwacha proceed.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, like I stated, this is a very important and serious matter. The nation and the whole world is watching, and it is important that we attach great importance to this matter before the House.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the Lusaka July event was launched in 2016. Has the Government tried to find out why the cases of sodomy and homosexuality have kept on rising, especially this time around, in a country that we call, and continue calling a Christian nation?

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister may answer the question although I heard him answer it in his ministerial statement.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, there is no evidence to show that the cases of sodomy are rising. What is evident is that members of the public are reporting these cases. It is possible that in the past, cases were not being reported and we must bear in mind that these activities are done in private; they are not done publicly. Even people engaged in homosexuality do not do it in public. It is done in private, in the dark under the blankets. We cannot know who is doing it. We hear the hon. Member for Bwacha. We, as the Government, are concerned just as he is concerned. We will carry out investigations and ascertain whether there is a matter that needs urgent attention.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to all of us, as leaders, church leaders and all leaders in the communities to work together to ensure that the morals of our country are not eroded. It is our duty and responsibility. We strongly believe, as a nation, that homosexuality should not be allowed. President Hakainde has, on many occasions, made pronouncements on this matter that we do not accept homosexuality.

Madam, I also want to tag on what my colleague, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, said on the need for us to tread carefully on this matter. As he indicated, it has international ramifications. However, as a country, we have made a decision and there are laws in place. These are criminal activities, which should be treated as criminal activities. We should not trivialise this matter and bring in political connotations.

Madam Speaker, we have heard mischievous leaders saying that the United Party for National Development (UPND) is not condemning homosexuality when we have done that on several occasions. On the Floor of this House and outside this House, we have made commitments and pronouncements that this country will not condone homosexuality, but because other people want to gain political mileage out of cheap criminality, they want to speak on top of anthills. We should not allow that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Stop the clock.

Hon. Member for Mpika, do you want to raise a point of order?

Mr Kapyanga: No, Madam Speaker. It has been overtaken by events. I wanted to rise against my hon. Colleague. Maybe, we need a breathalyser in here so that those who are drunk can be flushed out.

Madam Speaker: Now you are getting out of order yourself.

Laughter

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, there could be more cases than what meets the eye. The hon. Minister has stated that there are some cases under investigation in his ministry. Could he kindly tell this House and the nation whether his officers investigating these cases have come up with any reasons we have such practices? Is it just mere lust for a different taste or is there business or economic value attached to this practice?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, it is a very difficult question. Deviant behaviour has its own benefits to those who engage in it but, as a nation, we condemn this vice in the strongest terms possible. We will take that line and investigate. If there are other people who are promoting this, we will get to the root of the matter.

I thank you, Madam.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, allow me to express my disappointment. This is a very important issue which the whole nation is looking forward to this House addressing and not to joke about. To those who are taking this lightly, I hope one day their children will be sodomised.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Rev. Katuta: Now you feel it. You feel how those people are feeling outside. You feel it. You are feeling it.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, time is running. Please, ask your question.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, when we were at the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) in 2018, homosexuality was an emergency item, which was brought to the IPU and it was kicked out as it is not a universal human right. We are part of the IPU and we are also members of the United Nations (UN). On this Floor of the House, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security told the then hon. Minister of National Guidance and Religious Affairs that if Zambia wants to be excommunicated from the UN, it should condemn the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT). Anyway, that is on the record.

Madam Speaker, now my question is: If the Lusaka July event has brought about so much sodomy such that it is like now it is free for all, what measures is the Government going to put in place? Is it going to bring a Bill that is going to come up with stiffer laws so that we do not just leave things the way they are? We see men kissing and we take it that it is not part of the law, because those people were kissing. I would like to find out the next measure that this Government is going to take because our children are in danger. Our brothers and even husbands are in danger. Somebody got killed at Soweto Market yesterday.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to, first of all, rebut the mischievous statement that has been made by my hon. Colleague in which she is alleging that, on the Floor of this House, I indicated that if we do not support gayism, we will be excommunicated from the international community.

Rev. Katuta: It is on record.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I challenge her to bring the evidence, and if there is no such evidence, she should apologise. I will repeat what I said. People were asking us why we belonged to organisations that believe in gayism. I said that we, as Zambia, belong to the United Nations (UN), and it has members who support gayism. That was the statement I made on the Floor of this House. Now she has twisted the statement which I made. She must apologise.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the issues she has raised have no evidence. She suggested that the Lusaka July promoted sodomy, but there is no evidence to that effect. If she knows that it promoted sodomy, let her report to the police. If she does not know what sodomy means, let her go and read the Bible to see where it originated from. Sodomy relates to acts against nature through the anus. Is she saying that Lusaka July was promoting that sodomy? The answer is no. We are leaders, and unless we have evidence, we should not say certain things. The nation is listening, as she has said. There are other people who attended that Lusaka July who are so innocent and went to attend a fashion show, but it ended up being attended by people whom we perceive to be gay. You do not condemn people just because they participated in a function like that. It would be very unfair.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chienge, please, produce evidence relating to the –

Rev. Katuta rose.

Madam Speaker: No, I am not calling upon you to –

Rev. Katutainterjected.

Madam Speaker: No, you can produce it later.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No, no, no. We can do that later because time is running out. The hon. Member for Chienge can produce that evidence in my office.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that today, we were trying to break the rules of this House by accusing each other about who does and who does not do it. This matter is very important and the people of Zambia are listening to the way we are debating in this House. My question is very simple and straightforward. This matter is becoming loud and that is why it has attracted the attention of the ministry and prompted it to issue a ministerial statement. I would like to find out what the ministry is going to do to ensure that people are sensitised, including those in rural areas, about the dangers of sodomy and homosexuality because it appears people have forgotten.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the responsibility to sensitise the communities does not only lie with the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. It is the responsibility of us, as leaders, here in this House, the Church, the traditional leaders, and parents to educate our children pertaining to the danger of gayism and engaging in such vices. We have to educate our people.

Madam Speaker, it is also recorded that in a number of jurisdictions, cases of Human Immuno-deficiency Virus (HIV) and Acquired Immuno-Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) were being transmitted as a result of gayism. We should take this matter seriously. It is not just a matter of sex, but it is also a matter of the health of our people. We need to educate them. So, I am calling upon us, as leaders, churches, traditional leaders and other leaders to take this matter seriously and educate our people. As the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, we will do our part. I will engage my colleague, the hon. Minister of Information and Media, so that we can start running programmes on television and radio to educate the people pertaining to these vices.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will allow the hon. Member for Nkana to ask a question because he is one of the people who raised this issue.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, my heart goes out to the family whose young man was sodomised to death yesterday.

Madam Speaker, at this point, my prayer is that this House does not, again, drop down to the issue of the fight between the left and the right because this matter requires all of us to put our minds and heads together. It is bigger than we all think. It requires all of us to find solutions to this problem.

Madam Speaker, earlier on, I read a statement by the Government spokesperson, which stated that the Government will pursue all those perpetuating these vices, including those who are sponsoring it. There is a report that certain private hospitals, including the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), have set up special clinics for people practising homosexuality. If that be the case, it means these are units that are sponsoring or helping to spread gayism.

Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is: Is the Government aware of private clinics, including the UTH, that have set up these special clinics? If it is not aware, can the hon. Minister assure this House that investigations will be carried out to ascertain the validity of such information that the UTH, which is a Government hospital, has set up a special unit that is attending to homosexuals.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, there are reports, which I cannot confirm, that this special clinic was established more than eight years ago at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), under the reign of a Government you know. We will verify that, but there are reports that our colleagues established that clinic at the UTH.

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that I cannot confirm, but there are reports that there is a clinic at the UTH, which was set up by the previous Government to cater for those individuals who are finding themselves in that situation. I am told that that the clinic is there, but I will verify, and my colleague, the hon. Minister of Health, will check. However, according to what other people are saying, it was established by our hon. Colleagues on your left.

Madam Speaker, I, once again, appeal to all of us that this matter is in national interest. Let us not point fingers at each other, trivialise this matter and politicise it. If we really want to serve the people of Zambia, as per the law established, let us ensure that we fight this vice together so that the people of Zambia know that we are fighting it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, we cannot stretch anymore time further than we have done. However, what has come out is clear that there is moral decay in the country. It is up to all of us, starting from our homes, to make sure that we sensitise our children from a very tender age because some of the children who are being affected are six years and below. So, it is better that from our homes, we take measures to educate our children and tell them what can be done and how they can protect their bodies.

As I have said, moral decay has visited us. Have you ever heard of a priest having a girlfriend? I was amazed to hear that a priest was killed at the girlfriend’s house. That is part of the moral decay that we are talking about. All of us must take responsibility, starting from our homes to the community and should work with the Government, and take measures. Bear in mind that we cannot convict or prosecute anybody because of perception. An illegal act has to be done for somebody to be prosecuted and, maybe, convicted. However, before we get to the point of conviction and prosecution, please, let us take measures on our own. Until this thing visits your home, you will not know how big it is. You will only know how big this problem is when your child, sister or somebody you know is involved.

So, with those words, we can move to Questions for Oral Answer.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PETAUKE/CHIEF SANDWE/CHILONGOZI/MFUWE ROAD PROJECT

24. Mr E. Daka (Msanzala) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. what the progress, in percentage terms, on the rehabilitation of the Petauke/Chief Sandwe/Chilongozi/Mfuwe Road in the Eastern Province was, as of February, 2022;
2. how much money was spent on the project, as of February, 2022;
3. what the cost of the outstanding works is; and
4. when the project will be completed.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation works of Petauke/Chief Sandwe/Chilongozi/Mfuwe Road in the Eastern Province was split in two lots for ease of implementation. As of February 2022, the progress on Lot 1 was at 25.6 per cent, while progress on Lot 2 was at 47.8 percent.

Madam Speaker, as of February 2022, the cumulative payments to the contractors for the project were as follows. Under Lot 1, the contractor had been paid K58,448,275.88, while the contractor for Lot 2 had been paid K75,035,978.13.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the outstanding works on Lot 1 contract is K157,904,939.34, while the cost of outstanding works on Lot 2 contract is K96.557,610.17.

Madam Speaker, the contract for Lot 1 was terminated by the contractor due to delayed payments for works undertaken whilst the contract for Lot 2 has been suspended due to funding challenges. The completion date for the project will be known once funds for the works have been secured.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Daka: Madam Speaker, in simple terms, I would like to know what is being done to improve accessibility for the people in Msanzala, particularly on bridges and uphill points such as on Nyamanjiba and Lusangazi rivers. What measures are being taken as we wait for monies to be sourced? How are the people of Msanzala Constituencygoing to be helped?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Msanzala for the follow-up question. I think even as late as last week on the Floor of this House, I stated that if hon. Members of Parliament are aware of situations which might result in certain sections of the communities being cut-off during the rainy season, those should be brought to our attention, so that emergency works can be done. It is not the wish of this Government to see any member of the community being cut-off from the rest of the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Katombola to raise a point of order. I know that it has appeared as if it is a question. I do not know whether you can exercise your discretion to allow me to proceed with the point of order.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, the point of order that I rise on is premised on the provisions of Standing Orders 131, 132 and 133, upon which I seek your discretion to allow me raise a matter which borders on public policy.

Madam Speaker, the matter I am raising, in this point of order, pertains to the ruling that has been rendered today and the efficacy on what should happen for purposes of jurisprudence tomorrow on hon. Members of Parliament who were allowed by the Constitutional Court to come and sit in this House and later on their seats were nullified, but they continued earning an income.

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling as to whether that income will be refunded or what is the position on that for purposes of jurisprudence tomorrow?

Madam Speaker: Maybe, for good order, if you have a complaint relating to that, it is better you put that in writing and submit to my office, and it will be addressed.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, the question is asking the Minister of Health whether the Government has any plans to construct a modern hospital in Siavonga District –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Sorry, I was actually wondering what is happening. We are still on the other question. I think there is pressure to attend to other national issues and that is why there is this mix-up. We will finish soon after just two more questions.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, it is gratifying to note that his ministry is preparing for all those roads that might possibly be cut-off. I hope the Mukambo Road is on the priority list, considering the amount of effort that the people of Kantanshi have put in to try and ensure that they do not get cut-off during the coming rainy season.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister raised the point of the termination of contracts by the contractors and a number of contractors have discontinued the works under his ministry. Are there any financial liabilities by these contractors seeking the termination of the contracts? If there are, has the ministry made a full assessment of the amount of money the Zambian people will lose to these contractors who will leave the site and also terminate the contracts based on the fact that the ministry is not paying them?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kantanshi. The situation is very clear. If a contractor terminates a contract, other than that which he is entitled to, such as the Interim Payment Certificates (IPCs) for work already done and, of course, what was accumulated as costs, such as interest, there is no other cost that he is entitled to. However, it is different if the termination arises from the contracting authority, but in this case, the termination is from the contractor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for those answers. I would like to find out if, perhaps, the ministry has carried out an evaluation, looking at how some roads, like the road in Msanzala, have been priced at a very high price. Has the ministry carried out an evaluation to ensure that some road contracts are renegotiated to a very good market price, so that our brothers in Msanzala can assess some facilities, such as bridges and the aforesaid road?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member for Bwana Mkubwa, Hon. Mwambazi, for that very important point. I think it is a well-known truth that a number of contracts in the infrastructure sector were overpriced in the past. It has been the focus of this New Dawn Administration to ensure that it reduces to the right levels, the cost pertaining to infrastructural development.

Madam Speaker, for a number of these contracts, we are carrying out an assessment, and we are talking about over 1,000 contracts that were given, some without any budgetary backing and so on and so forth. Part of our assessment is to see the financial impact on the Government by the termination of these contracts. We shall tread carefully to make sure that we do not unnecessarily increase the Government’s liability as a result of certain actions that we take.

Madam Speaker, in reference to the second point the hon. Member made, in other words, how we will reduce costs on the existing contracts, on some of the existing contracts that were already signed and already in the process of being performed, contractors themselves come and offer discounts. When they do so, the Government meets them halfway and ensures that they go ahead and complete those projects. I think this is due to the realisation that what they had charged was too high.

Madam Speaker, this is not just for roads, but also houses. I think we have talked about a two bed-roomed low-cost house costing over K1 million and so on and so forth. These types of costs or cost per kilometre in excess of K1 million on roads, is a thing of the past. We still have contracts that were given out at those prices and I urge contractors who want to co-operate with the Government to voluntarily come and offer discounts, so that they can perform the works at the right costs.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Nyimba.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, am I asking on Question No. 24 or No. 25 …

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: … because of the system I am using. I left my iPad. Is it Question No. 24?

Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, we have not yet reached Question No. 25. If you do not have a question, then thehon. Member for Petauke Central can ask a question.

Mr Menyani Zulu: I have a question, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: On this same matter?

Mr Menyani Zulu: Yes. I indicated to ask a question on the Bosch machine because I forgot my iPad.

Madam Speaker, I know that the road going to Mfuwe is very important, especially for the people – in fact, this trunk road links Petauke to Mfuwe. In the President’s Speech, when the President spoke about tourism, he emphasised that we need to open up the areas where there is potential of attractingmany tourists. This road can reduce the distance from Lusaka to Mfuwe or the distance that the people who arrive by plane in Mfuwe to Sandwe Game Management Area cover. Since the 2023 Budget is still under preparation, does the hon. Minister have any plans to see to it that this road is included in the 2023 Budget so that we can ease the traveling of the tourists who go to Mfuwe?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nyimba.

Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the importance of this road and it is a possible short cut for those who drive from Lusaka to Mfuwe. In January or February this year, I was in Petauke and this is one of the roads that was brought to my attention when I visited the district. So, yes, there is a contract for this road. As to whether we shall proceed with the works, that will depend on the availability of funds. I cannot at this juncture pre-empt what is going to be in the Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Since the hon. Member for Petauke Central is insisting on asking a question, I will allow him.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, my question has already been asked by my friends.So, I will just visit the hon. Minister at his office.

Madam Speaker: Thank you for that. Let us make progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN CHIEFTAINESS MWAPE’S

CHIEFDOM

25. Mr Menyani Zulu asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct communication towers in Chieftainess Mwape’s Chiefdom in Nyimba District;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, the Government plans to take connectivity to all the unserved and underserved parts of the country, including in Chieftainess Mwape’s Chiefdom in Nyimba District, by strategically erecting communication towers. So far, the Government erected a short tower at Chieftainess Mwape’s Chiefdom. The tower was recently upgraded to provide more connectivity.

Madam Speaker, further, the Government commissioned a Nationwide Connectivity Gap Analysis Study to ascertain the areas where communication towers need to be erected. The Government has plans to erect one communication tower in Chieftainess Mwape’s Chiefdom in Nyimba District starting mid next year.

Madam Speaker, the report of the gap analysis is being finalised which will culminate in the development of the Digital Connectivity Master Plan for the whole country and hon. Members of Parliament will be required to verify the coverage of communication towers in their respective constituencies after the completion of the master plan.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister promised the people of Nyimba and specifically the people of Chieftainess Mwape’s area that the communication tower will be erected mid next year. Usually, I have a few concerns with the promises made by the hon. Ministers and whatever they promise for Nyimba, nothing comes up.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister understands that due to poor planning, we ended up erecting communication towers in the game reserve, in Chief Lwembe’s area. The tourists are using the internet, but looking at the bigger part of that area, the hon. Minister will agree with me that 80 per cent of the animals there,such asthe elephants and lions,are the ones benefiting from that.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: Is the hon. Minister going to talk to the local people who know where people are densely populated before erecting any tower?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I said that we are finalising the Digital Connectivity Master Plan for the whole country and hon. Members of Parliament will be engaged to help us ensure that the towers are planted in the correct areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, the difficulty of internet network in Chief Mwape’s area is similar tothose regions where there are valleys. The hon. Minister said that the short tower was upgraded, and much as it was upgraded, I am very certain that it is not functioning like the other towers. Are the towers the Governmentwill upgrade accommodate the three current networks in the country or is it only the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL) that will be operating?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, when we upgrade the towers, we increase the distance for connectivity and in view of the upgrade thattook place, it means that more people are connected to the tower.

Madam Speaker, we are carrying out a detailed assessment to ensure that hon. Members of Parliament are part and parcel of the connectivity plan.

Madam Speaker, we shall ensure thatthe Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL)erects towers, and as part of the licencing requirement, all mobile and telephone operators are required to plant towers in rural areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker,what is the average cost oferecting one tower?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, my question was: What is the average cost of erecting one communication tower in the area that we are discussing?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the towers vary in height and also in active equipment. We have placed an advertisement for twenty-one towers to be erected and I do not want to pre-empt the competitive nature of those who will engage in the bidding.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has already answeredthe other question, but I want to seek clarity on the short towers, which I think are 10 to 15 m. In view of the terrain in the constituency and the two wards, Katipa and Chinsimbwe, there is literally very poor network. What type of towers will the Government erect in a rural set up like Nyimba Constituency?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, it is a dual strategy. For the ones that are short, we now have technology and we will replace the modem, which will create extra capacity and range to be useful. So, we shall do that for most of the short towers. For the ones that we will plant afresh, we shall concentrate on the long towers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker gave the Floor toMr E. Daka.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to ask the hon. Minister a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, how many towers will the Government provide in Chief Mwape’s area, in Nyimba District?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I said we upgraded one of the short towers and we will also erect one extra long tower in her chiefdom.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker gave the Floor toMr Chewe.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about upgrading the short towers to increase the coverage. He also said that the Government will erect one short tower and one long tower. What is advantageous between erecting a long tower or increasing the coverage of the normal ones like the ones we have in Kalabo which cover about 15 km? Would it not be beneficial to have a tower covering a longer range than erecting two within the same chiefdom?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, for the sake of clarity, for example, in Nyimbaand many other places, there are short towers. Those are the ones we are increasing capacity so that we can increase the range. The new towers will be the long type.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

REHABILITATION OF THE KALOMO/MAPATIZYA ROAD

26. Ms Munashabantu (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Kalomo/Mapatizya Road, which is in a deplorable condition;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. when the road will be tarred.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, there are no immediate plans to rehabilitate the Kalomo/Mapatizya Road due to funding challenges.

Madam Speaker, the plans may be considered in future road sector work plans, subject to the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the Government will consider upgrading the road to bituminous standard in future work plans, subject to the availability of funds.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, is there anything that the hon. Minister can do in the interim because the Kalomo/Mapatizya Road is extremely dilapidated and there are many activities, especially in the mining area. Can the hon. Minister suggest that probably his office and the mine will engage each other to see what they can do in the interim?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend, the Member for Dundumwezi, for the follow-up question. Yes, indeed, we are concerned about the state of the Kalomo/Mapatizya Road, and here is what –

Mr Sing’ombe: Through to Dundumwezi.

Eng. Milupi: I do not know about that, but for now, …

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: ... we have done something in order to keep the road accessible as consideration for major works is being awaited. So, we are considering that. In the interim, the Road Development Agency (RDA) undertook an assessment of the damaged culverts on the road in March, 2021, and submitted a budget for the required repair works to the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) tothe sum of K1,149,591.84. However, due to the limited fiscal space against competing demands, works are yet to be undertaken. In the same vein, the RDA intends to continue undertaking routine maintenance on the stretch. The scope of routine maintenance works includes vegetation control.

Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Member of Parliament for Mapatizya to sometimes come and see us in the office, and it might result in some of these issues being resolved faster.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mapani(Namwala): Madam Speaker, is there any intention to include this same road in next year’s Budget?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, as I said, we are aware of the state of this road. We also know that this road goes to a mining place, which means then that it is commercially viable. As I have stated, we have plans, first of all, to make it motorable through repair works and we shall do that. However, the plan, as I said in my initial answer is that, ultimately, we need to upgrade the road to bituminous status. So, the plan is there and we hope to implement it. However, the hon. Member’s question is whether there are plans to put the road in next year’s Budget. It would be wrong of me as Minister to start announcing the plans in next year’s Budget. That is the preserve of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when he comes here on the last Friday of this month to announce the Budget. So, let us just wait and see what goes in the Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The gadget showed that Mr Jamba was an Independent Member.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, my constituency is Mwembei.

Madam Speaker, –

Mr Kangombe: Independent MP.

Interruptions

Mr Jamba: Is it sure?

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that there are plans to rehabilitate the road, pending funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Is he able to furnish us, maybe, in two weeks, three weeks or four weeks’ time, the roads in this country they plan to rehabilitate so that we do not ask him this question every now and then because, even in Mwembezhi, in Shibuyunji District, the culverts collapsed and I was about to ask the same question? So, is the hon. Minister able to bring the master plan of priority roads which are supposed to be done pending funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Before the hon. Minister comes in, the voices on my left are too loud.

Leader of the Opposition, your voices are too loud. Can you, please, lower them.

Mr Mundubile resumed his seat.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the list of roads that we wish to start working on, through the public-private partnership (PPP) model of financing and those that will require the Government to allocate resources for, is still in the process of being finalised. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to announce it now because the Government is finalising that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Peta-UK this opportunity to ask a follow-up question. The hon. Minister of Infrastructure –

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government Chief Whip is in order to have allowed this House to indicate that Hon. Jamba is an Independent Member of Parliament, when he was overwhelmingly voted for under the United Party for National Development (UPND) and he sits here as a UPND hon. Member. Is it in order for him to appear on the gadget as an Independent Member of Parliament?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much, hon. Member for Dundumwezi. According to the Standing Orders, you cannot raise a point of order on administrative issues. However, it is a good reminder. The Clerks and the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) group will work on that.

Apologises to Hon. Jamba. He is a United Party for National Development (UPND) hon. Member.

May the hon. Member for Petauke Central continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the question to the hon. Minister from the good people of Peta-UK on the Kalomo/Mapatizya Road is: Are there plans to put culverts on the road so that the good people of Mapatizya have crossing points in the rainy season as they wait for the road to be worked onnext year?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, when I was giving additional information, I indicated that some work was done in March, 2021, to assess the damaged culverts on this road and the cost was submitted. We need to make a follow-up so some of these culverts can be repaired. That is why I have asked the hon. Member for Mapatizya to liaise with us so that we can see what can be done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, my brother, the hon. Member for Mwembezhi, asked the hon. Minister a very fair question, but instead, he has chosen not to answer him. Issues of roads are very critical not only to Mwembezhi, but to all our constituencies, including Mandevu. The hon. Minister has been telling us since last year that the Government will work on the roads as and when money is made available, but he has not been indicating when, and my colleague –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can you go specifically to your question.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, in this session, we would love to relax. After the Budget is presented, the hon. Minister should give us a list of those roads which will be worked on under the next Budget, so that we know the roads that will be done this year and those that will be done the other year, unlike the answers he has been giving from last year.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mandevu.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mwembezhi’s question on the development of the list of priority roads was very clear, and I said it is in the process of being developed. Until such a time that the list is finalised, we cannot announce it on the Floor of this House. When the Budget is done, the Yellow Book will indicate the roads that will be worked on. So, if there are any roads that need to be worked on in any constituency, they will be indicated in the Budget. If there are any truck roads in the hon. Member for Mandevu’s constituency, because that is what I am in charge of, it will be announced if they will be included in the 2023 Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF A FOOTBALL STADIUM AND BASKETBALL AND

VOLLEYBALL COURTS IN ISOKA DISTRICT

27. Ms Nakaponda (Isoka) asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts:

(a)   whether the Government has any plans to construct the following infrastructure in Isoka District:

1. a football stadium;
2. a basketball court; and
3. a volleyball court;

(b)   if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(c)   if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu): Madam Speaker, allow me, before I answer the question, to congratulate the Copper Queens for emerging victorious in South Africa where they conquered the Southern Africa and eventually brought the Council of Southern Africa Football Associations (COSAFA) Cup for the first time in the history of this nation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, allow me to also congratulate the boxers who minted seven medals in Mozambique, that is two gold and three bronze, and also walked away with US$47,500 from the tournament. I also congratulate the draft players who also emerged victorious in Bulgaria and also minted many medals, two gold and four bronze. Indeed, Zambia is in the champions’ league.

Madam Speaker, having said that, the hon. Member of Parliament may wish to note that it is this Government’s desire, through the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, to construct and establish multi-sport facilities to cater for all sporting disciplines, not only basketball, volley and football, at national, provincial and district levels, respectively, which includes Isoka District. To this end, the ministry is focused on developing and improving the state of sports infrastructure in the country to serve as a catalyst for sports development and also the production of quality athletes.

Madam Speaker, the ministry has plans to construct and rehabilitate multi-sports infrastructure in the country. In this regard, to achieve this, the ministry has requested for additional budgetary allocation in the 2023 Budget to facilitate for infrastructure development, which includes sports infrastructure. However, the hon. Member of Parliament may also wish to note that the ministry is also engaging co-operating partners in order to mobilise alternative sources of funding for infrastructure development, which will also include multi-sports facilities. We are sitting on twenty basketball courts donated by the co-operating partners, which will be distributed in all the provinces.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have seen that some hon. Members are indicating when we are winding up. Is it possible to indicate way in advance so that the names are seen and we do not miss you?

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, how many stadia does the Government intend to construct in 2022, if possible, even in 2023, and in which provinces or districts, so that the good people of Luwingu, Lubansenshi Constituency, can know that, indeed, they are going to have a stadium?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, let us not expand the question so much. It is about Isoka.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, in fact, I have seen a question from Hon. Chewe from Lubansenshi, so if I answer him, it means that question may lapse, but I will try to answer, if I am allowed, so that that question lapses.

Madam Speaker, currently, we are constructing four major stadia in the country, which include Kaole Stadium in Luapula Province, Independence Stadium in Solwezi, David Kaunda Stadium in Chipata and the Kasama Sports Complex in Kasama. So, these are the four facilities we are constructing this year. Hon. Members of Parliament should support the budget for the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts so that we improve the infrastructure in almost all districts. We may not construct sports facilities in all the districts, but after the Budget is announced, we will be able to know the districts that will be catered for in 2023.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, allow me to pass my condolences to the hon. Minister of Youth, Sports and Arts on the tragedy that happened in his constituency, the loss of the twenty United Church of Zambia (UCZ) members on the road from Kaputa to Mporokoso, may their souls rest in peace.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister hopes that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will include the construction of the stadium in Isoka in the Budget, but we know that is farfetched because of budgetary constraints. Is the hon. Minister considering using the meagre resources the ministry has, to put up tracks in Isoka and other rural areas? Muzala Samukonga, who is a champion, brought joy to the nation and he is from …

Mr Shakafuswa: He is from Mandevu.

Mr Sampa: … Mandevu Constituency, as guided. I thought it was Matero. Will the Government consider putting up tracks in rural constituencies because the citizens in rural areas run? Are we able to find another Muzala? Even for high jump, simple sticks do not cost much, so people can jump and win more commonwealth and olympic medals than concentrating on football. Constructing a stadium requires more money and we will never find that money.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I want to dispel the issue of concentrating on football. This morning, I hosted the boxers, who won medals, as I indicated. I also hosted the draft players who also won medals. That clearly tells a story that we are not only concentrating on football. If there is a Government which has done very well to remove the notion of minor sport, it is this Government. We are sponsoring almost every sporting discipline in the country because we believe that we may not have gold medals from football, but we can mint some medals elsewhere. I think on that particular issue, we are doing everything possible to make sure that we support every sporting discipline.

Madam Speaker, firstly, it is important for people to know that the New Dawn Administration is not looking at sport as just mere entertainment, but as a vehicle that can assist it create employment for the young people. Secondly, it is also looking at sport as a tool that it can use, as the New Dawn Administration, to alleviate poverty among the young people. Today, Muzala is a millionaire because of the New Dawn Administration. So, when we talk about creating employment and alleviating poverty using sport, this is what we mean. Those who have minted gold, silver or bronze medals have been given a lot of money so that they are removed from poverty.

Madam Speaker, in order to alleviate the issue of the tracksin all stadia, we have come up with national youth sport festivals, which will be conducted in every district. We will be choosing all the sports disciplines so that at the end of the day, we are able to come up with very good and quality athletes in all the sporting disciplines. So, we may not have the capacity now to get all the equipment that may be required, but I think we will be able to manage with what we have so far. As I said earlier, in 2023, we look forward to seeing a very good budget for my ministry and we will be able to construct or rehabilitate some stadia in the country, including in Matero, where people have encroached the sports facility. We will make sure that we rehabilitate it so that it meets the standard that will be appreciated by the people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MsNakaponda: Madam Speaker, I would like to know the criterion used for not including the people of Isoka. The hon. Minister has not included them on the list of infrastructure that will be built as I asked before. We want sports infrastructure to be built in our constituency. When that is done, most of the youths will be kept busy playing football and other athletics. When they are not busy, they will be involved in other activities like sodomy.

Interruptions

Ms Nakaponda: I also want to let you know that –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question, hon. Member?

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, I first wanted to explain.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are debating. Please, go straight to your question.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, what criterion will the Government use to help the people of Isoka because they want sports infrastructure?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, the first question was on the criterion that was used and the other question is on the criterion that we will use.

Madam Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to talk to the nation, through Parliament. I know that the Zambian people have been looking for positive results in every sports discipline, but I think what we are not doing is that sometimes – we promptly look for money for people to go and participate –

Interruptions

Mr Nkandu: Hon. Mundubile, you are making a lot of noise.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, can we, please, maintain silence. You are free to go outside and have a caucus, and then come back so that those who want to raise their voices can be free to do that outside. However, when we are here, we should minimise noise.

Hon. Minister, you can continue.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I wanted him to understand and listen carefully so that he knows what we will do in Mporokoso, in 2023.

Laughter

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, since we have been looking for positive results in every sports discipline, we should take note of the three steps that I will mention.

Madam Speaker, firstly, we need to invest in infrastructure if we are to produce quality athletes. So, for us, rehabilitating or constructing sports infrastructure is a priority because that is when we will have quality athletes. Secondly, previously, Governments would promptly look for money for people to go and participate in events, and not compete. You cannot take a team to go and compete when it is not adequately prepared. So, the New Dawn Government is investing in preparation so that it sends people to go and compete and not participate, the way it used to be done previously. So, that is a very good step. Thirdly, we need to look for money for people to go and compete. If these three steps are followed properly, we will be called a sports power house either in the Southern region or in Africa.

Madam Speaker, coming to the hon. Member’s question on the criterion that was used, the Government wants to first make sure that there is very good sports infrastructure in every provincial town. If the hon. Member heard me correctly, I said that a stadium is being constructed in Chipata, which is the provincial capital, Kaole Stadium in Mansa, Independence Stadium in Solwezi and a stadium is being constructed in Kasama, which is a provincial capital, and that was the criterion.So, we wanted to start with the provincial capitals and I know we have found land in Chinsali and Livingstone. So, when we complete those four, we will put up very good sports infrastructure, in fact, multi sports infrastructure in every province. That does not mean that we will not go to Chembe. We will go to other districts, and I believe that the 2023 Budget will cater for some places. I have talked about Isoka; we will go to Isoka, but I wanted my hon. Colleague from Chembe to know that we will also go to Chembe, including Isoka. So, I have explained the criterion. We will see how the master plan will be after the Budget is presented, then we will tell the House the districts that we will start with.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, my question was on the hon. Minister bringing the master plan to this House, and he has just confirmed that it will be brought. The previous hon. Minister responsible for sports mentioned a number of areas where stadia were supposed to be built and Mwinilunga was one of them. So, I am happy that he will come with the master plan. Well done, hon. Minister.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Isoka, would you like to ask one more question?

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has already answered all my questions.

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, this point of order is on the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker, is the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House in order to allow this honourable House to continue debating whilst the quorum is not formed? If you look on your right, you will see that the seats are almost empty.

It is in order, Madam Speaker?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you cite the Standing Order?

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, the Standing Order is there in the Standing Orders.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much. I think the hon. Member just wanted people to smile. This House has a quorum.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, sports development is a very costly undertaking, particularly if you want to produce quality athletes and want to win more medals. I am very happy with the statement from the hon. Minister and my colleague, Hon. Sampa, to the effect that we are beginning to look beyond football because I think Zambia is very strong in individual sports, if people have not observed that, compared to team sports. We have had medals in squash, tennis, boxing and swimming for many years and we never paid attention. It is good that we are now beginning to pay attention and we will reap more if we shift our policy towards this approach. However, my concern is the money. It requires a lot of money to conduct festivals and invest, and as the hon. Minister said, this is one of the steps if we are to achieve positive results in every sports discipline.

Madam Speaker, other than budget support from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, which I know will not be enough because the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts has never enjoyed a lot of money and has a very small budget, how does the hon. Minister hope to finance all these activities so that we reap more medals and produce winners for the nation? Is the hon. Minister only going to rely on the Budget or does he have other ways of raising money for sports, particularly for these stadia? The Chinese helped us build the two top stadia. Now we want to build the stadia ourselves. So, how does the hon. Minister hope to raise extra money?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Lukulu East.

Madam Speaker, I stated that with the help of the co-operating partners, we will be able to construct more stadia. It is true that we may not only depend on the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, but I believe that I answered this question when I said that co-operating partners will be able to come in and assist us. I even gave an example that I am sitting on twenty basketball courts that will be distributed to all the provinces. So, there is goodwill from the co-operating partners and even from the private sector because of the restoration of the rule of law by the New Dawn Administration and also the way it is managing the affairs of the country. The private sector is very eager to complement the Government’s effort in whatever it is doing. So, we will make sure that we look elsewhere apart from the money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr J. E. Banda:Imwe muli nama degree that is why simu kambila bantu. Oh, sorry.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Meaning what, hon. Member?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, meaning these people with degrees are scared to talk. They do not talk.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: They only talk when someone stands up, but they can also indicate to talk. I think their people voted for them to come and say “Hear, hear, hear”.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, we do not talk about ourselves. Please, go straight to your question.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Peta-UK this opportunity to ask the hon. Minister a follow-up question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, it is Petauke. The constituency we have here at Parliament is Petauke Central Constituency. I do not know whether there is another Peta-UK so that we cause a by-election ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... for Petauke Central.

I am sure you were guided even last week that this constituency is supposed to be called Petauke Central Constituency. So, can we maintain the name Petauke Central Constituency so that we do not confuse the people of Zambia, especially the people from Petauke Central Constituency. So, with that guide, please, avoid the other new constituency that you keep mentioning. You can continue with your question.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for that guidance.

Madam Speaker, has the hon. Minister tried to engage the private sector in Isoka so that, maybe, it can put up good infrastructure through a public-private partnership (PPP) programme?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, on engaging the private sector through a public-private partnership (PPP) programme, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning should be able to answer that one correctly. However, the private sector will be able to come in, especially through the PPP, when it sees that it will recoup its money in a specified time.Now looking at sports infrastructure, I do not expect the private sector to come in through a PPP programme, unless otherwise. However, it is something that we can try, using the hon. Member, because he understands PPPs on stadia very clearly.

Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Member’s question, we have not done that yet because of what I have just explained. However, there is nothing wrong with talking to the business people in Isoka to see if they can come in and assist because at the end of the day, the sports infrastructure will be used by their children and they will also be able to watch some matches and other sports disciplines. So, it is something that we need to look at together with the hon. Member for Isoka. If there are business people, she can come to office and give me the information and then we will be able to go that route.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the voice of Chienge to be heard on the debate on this very important question, which was asked by the Member of Parliament for Isoka.

Madam Speaker, since the ministry does not have the money right now, can it not work together with the council in Isoka? The hon. Minister talked about developing infrastructure in other parts of the country. Can his ministry not work with the local Government so that we have can “holofeyas” as we used to call them when we were growing up, although I do not know what they are now called. That way, we will have recreation centres than waiting for the money to be made available to build stadia. Why can the ministry not work with the local Government, through the councils, especially in Isoka?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I do not want to be motivated by the fact thatthrough the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), there is some money for youth development. The hon. Member talked about working with the local authority, but we are one Government.

Madam Speaker, let me also take this opportunity to advise hon. Members to assist the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, the way they are helping the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to buy vehicles for the Zambia Police Service. They are also buying their own vehicles in the constituencies. They are assisting the Ministry of Health to put up infrastructure and the Ministry of Education to put up schools. So, they can do the same by putting up sports using the CDF because this is also a very good sector.

Madam Speaker, having a talent is like having a well-paying job that those withDoctor of Philosophy (PHDs), degrees, and other qualifications have. So, if we can improve on the talent of a child, then it will be able to get a lot of money through that talent. So, since hon. Members are assisting the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Health to put up infrastructure, they can also help my ministry put up sports infrastructure using the CDF. After all, there is some money for youth development.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last two questions from the hon. Member for Solwezi East and the hon. Member for Roan.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Solwezi East, in Mushindamo District, a chance to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister talk about the construction and rehabilitation of stadia. If you look at the Heroes Stadium, there is litter outside and the environment is so dry. Does the ministry have any intention of opening some of these facilities to the public for conferences and other events, so that it can raise some revenue which can actually help to rehabilitate some of these stadia the hon. Minister talked about, and it can-sustain itself and the stadia can be beautiful with green environments, not littered and so on and so forth?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you may respond, if you have the answer to that question.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, thank you for protecting me from a question which is not part of the hon. Member for Isoka’s question. However, the answer is, yes, we have such plans.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, before I pose my question, through your indulgence, allow me to shower some accolades on the hon. Member for Lukulu East, my elder brother, Dr Kalila, who has immensely contributed to sports in this country by being the architect of players like Rainford Kalaba, Jacob Mulenga and Bob Banda when he was the proprietor of Afrisports Football Club.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye: In fact, even Sunzu.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his statement, alludedthat he has received twenty basketball courts from co-operating partners. Will he try to lobby from the same co-operating partners so they can also build a stadium so that the people in Isoka can benefit? Further, when the hon. Minister was answering the question, he left an appetite hanging in us when he mentioned that the boxers in Mozambique were actually given US$47,000 as prize money. Is he in a position to tell this House, as to how much the Copper Queens were paid when they lifted the Council of Southern Africa Football Associations (COSAFA) cup in South Africa?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Those were two questions. Hon. Minister, you can pick one question.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, since it is a loaded question, it may also need a loaded answer. I thank the hon. Member for that loaded question so that those that may not know, can know what the ministry and the New Dawn Administration is doing.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member showered accolades to those players he mentioned, but there are more than those he mentioned. Even Mbola came from Hon. Kalila’s Afrisports Football Club and many more. So, that is something that will not be removed from Hon. Kalila.

Madam Speaker, the way we are now doing things and how we are winning these games should not be seen as an accident. There is a lot of planning and motivation in terms of monetary form. Even if some people do not want to talk about the past, it is important to talk about it so that we know where we are going. Previously, after taking part in a tournament, the Copper Queens would just be given K50 for transport. That is what was obtaining. However, for us, when they qualified, we gave them US$1,000 each before they even went to Morocco. For every game in the preliminary rounds, they got US$3,000.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: When they reached the quarter finals, it was US$4,000 per individual and when they reached the semi-finals, it was US$4,500 per individual. So, if they had played the final game, it would have been US$5,000. So, for three games, it was US$3,000 for each making it US$9,000 plus the US$1,000 that was given to them makes it US$10,000. When they reached the quarter finals, they were given US$4,000, making it US$14,000. Then when they played the semi-finals, they were given US$4,500, making it US$18,500.

Hon. Member: Is that dollars?

Mr Nkandu: It is dollars, yes.

Madam Speaker, this is what has motivated the Copper Queens. However, we are not just looking at the Copper Queens alone. We are also looking at those who are not part of the team, so that they are motivated to join the team. As it is said, where there is competition, there is a quality provision of services. We expect that there will be a lot of competition now that there is something that is motivating the players. The wins that we have had so far may not have just come for the sake of financial motivation. There are many things involved. It is not only the Copper Queens who are doing well. Muzala Samukonga also won a gold medal. Under the New Dawn era, a gold medal is worth US$5,000. Like I said, some people minted two gold medals. For instance, there is a boy who went to Bulgaria and minted two gold medals at the Junior World Draughts Championship. He is likely to come back with US$10,000.

Madam Speaker, earlier, I mentioned that we are not looking at sport as just mere entertainment, as our hon. Colleagues used to look at it in the past. We are looking at sport as a tool that can alleviate poverty amongst the young people and also create employment. I thank the hon. Member for that question, so that many hon. Members of Parliament understand what we are going through because people have been asking questions. For instance: Where are we getting this money from? It is from the same Budget. I do not know which priorities our friends were looking at.

Interruptions

Mr Nkandu: What is important is prudence. I think we have been prudently spending this money on where it is supposed to be spent on.

Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to clear some issues. The hon. Members on your left, not hon. Ministers and independent hon. Members of Parliament, should know that this is what is now obtaining. Indeed, we are in the champions’ league.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

CONSTRUCTION OF A MODERN HOSPITAL IN SIAVONGA DISTRICT

28. Mr Mulunda (Siavonga) asked the Minister of Health:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a modern hospital in SiavongaDistrict;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. if there no such plans, why.

Eng. Milupi(on behalf oftheMinister of Health (Mrs Masebo)): Madam Speaker, first of all, I thank Hon. Mulunda for the good question.

Madam Speaker, the Government continues to monitor, with keen interest, the growing tourism potential of Siavonga District. It is likely that in the coming years, the district is going to deserve an ultra-modern medical facility due to the anticipated economic growth of the district. Planning and budgeting will, therefore, be considered in the coming years for advanced medical facilities.

Madam Speaker, like we have said, in the 2023 and 2024 Budgets, we will objectively consider that request by the hon. Member for Siavonga.

Madam Speaker, there have not been plans for a modern hospital in Siavonga in the past because the Government, through the ministry, has been leveraging on the available resources to ensure that we take a step at a time, so as to avoid over committing the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in our infrastructure planning for health.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, allow me to first congratulate Hon. Milupi for having been identified as the seventh richest man in Zambia worth US$200 million by YouTube. Congratulations, hon. Minister.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, there have been many accidents on the hilly roads in Siavonga, and drowning accidents on the lake. Given that the hospital may not be constructed anytime soon due to budgetary constraints, is there any chance of providing a permanent flying doctor service there in case of emergencies and an ambulance on the lake, for the nonstop monitoring of the lake in case of drowning to save lives?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member for Matero, Hon. Miles Sampa. Before I answer the question, which I am going to, I have always considered the hon. Member as a very enlightened person and an expert in free Wi-Fi. I expect that by now, he would not take seriously all the issues that appear on social media and YouTube. If he wants nkongole, maybe, he can see me outside, without raising it here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: There is no truth in the statistics given on wealth and so on and so forth. I think a lot of wealth is in the hands of those who helped themselves to public resources and they are not on this side of the House. They are on the other side.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the substantive question is whether the Government is considering putting up facilities for a flying doctor service and so on and so forth. There is a hospital in Siavonga District, which was constructed in 1977, and it is a Government facility. It has a bed capacity of sixty, but due to the increase in population, this also needs to be worked upon.

Madam Speaker, the issues that the hon. Member raised regarding accidents on the road, lake and so on and so forth need to be addressed separately. However, the Government has already stated that because of the need to promote tourism and in view of the increase in economic activities, Siavonga needs an ultra-modern hospital. The Government will consider this in the coming years, starting with the budgets for 2023, 2024 and 2025. So, I think that is a better way to go than the suggestion from the hon. Member for Matero.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much, once again, for giving the people of Solwezi East in Mushindamo District, the source of the Kafue River, a chance to ask a question. Based on the plans for a modern hospital, can the hon. Minister clarify if other aspects that go with the construction of a hospital like staff houses and so on and so forthhave been factored in. It has just plainly been stated that there will be a general hospital, but what about the other facilities which go with that?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend, the Member for Solwezi East, which is in Mushindamo District. He said that is the source of the Kafue River, but over there, it is called Lwenge River.

Madam Speaker, yes, when a modern facility is eventually constructed, it will include all the facilities, including housing for those who will man it. However, we have to wait until these plans are finalised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Siavonga, do you have any question?

Mr Mulunda: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

Mr Mulunda: Madam Speaker, the hospital was constructed in the late 1970s and it is true that we have breakdowns here and there. One of the areas where we have many problems at the hospital is the mortuary. The mortuary is on and off and it is very expensive for the people to transport bodies to Chirundu General Hospital, which is the nearest hospital. Can the hon. Minister not consider working with organisations or institutions in Siavonga like Zesco Limited and the Zambezi River Authority (ZRA), who are reaping a lot from the construction of the dam in Siavonga District, to work on certain areas of the hospital like the mortuary and other areas so that before the new hospital is built, people can be able to access quality services?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member for Siavonga, Hon. Mulunda. I have here with me a long list of inadequate facilities at that hospital such as the laboratory, the main pharmacy, which is congested, the lack of cervical cancer services, the limited number of wards, a theatre which has no recovery room and no changing rooms. So, it is a litany of things that need to be corrected. That is why in our answer, we talked about the need to start planning for a modern facility that will incorporate all these things, including a mortuary. The modern hospital facility will have to have a mortuary. If you look at the timing that I have given in the answer, it is not too far into the future, we are talking about 2023/2024. So, I ask the hon. Member to engage with the Ministry of Health to see how many of these issues which are raised here can be addressed and how many need to wait for the ultra-modern facility which is planned for in the future.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker:The list has been exhausted. We move on.

______

MOTION

MOTION OF THANKS

(Debate resumed)

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before I pick on somebody to speak; I would like to announce that the Back-Benchers will be given an opportunity to debate from today up to Thursday. From Friday, the hon. Ministers will take it up from there to respond to the issues that would have been raised by the Back-Benchers.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Members of Parliament on your left, allow me to convey our deepest sympathies and condolences to all the bereaved families of the accident victims who died in a road accident in Nsama District. May the good Lord give the bereaved families strength during this very difficult time.

Madam Speaker, –

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!There is an indication for a point of order. Is it the hon. Member for Chienge?

Rev. Katuta: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your point of order?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I apologise to my colleague for disturbing his debate.

Madam Speaker, you can see this is summer – I do not have the Standing Orders …

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: … but this place is too cold. It is making us fail to concentrate. I know it is summer time but I tried to whisper that it is too cold. I am really shaking here. Sorry.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. The matter will be attended to.

Leader of the Opposition, you can continue.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the President’s trip to New York to attend the United Nations (UN) General Assembly is very important to this nation. It is for that reason that I appeal to the United Party for National Development (UPND) leadership in the House, including Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, to ensure that they resolve wrangles in the party so that the demonstrations that we have seen in the recent past, as to who should be Secretary-General (SG) and who should not be SG, can come to an end.We need the President to concentrate as he meets investors in New York. So, the leadership in the House should resolve this challenge, so that the President can focus on what he is doing.

Madam Speaker, I will now tender my discourse to the President’s Speech.

Madam Speaker, the President’s Speech to the nation is very important as it gives a general progress report on the performance of various sectors of the economy and the implementation of the rule of law among other governance programmes. The President’s Address also gives a general policy direction of the Government. It is through this speech that the President gives a national development agenda and also has an opportunity to realign the campaign promises to the national development agenda. As a result of this, citizens and other stakeholders have many expectations from the President’s Address to the nation.

Madam Speaker, like any other situation, expectations can either be met or not met. In some cases, people just walk away blank. It is the nature of things.

Madam Speaker, at page 3 of the speech, the President spoke about the prioritisation of fiscal discipline through enhanced transparency and accountability. Our reaction to the statement is as follows.The procurement of fertiliser at US$1,400 per metric tonne last year, US$400 over and above the prevailing price, is certainly not in line with the statement.

Madam Speaker, the secretive procurement of a US$100 million contract under the Ministry of Health did not certainly sit well with this statement.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the procurement of motor bikes at K130,000 per motor bike instead of K30,000 is certainly not speaking to the prioritisation of fiscal discipline through enhanced transparency and accountability.

Madam Speaker, on the procurement of …

Hon. UPND Members: Fire tenders!

Mr Mundubile:…bicycles, a bicycle that costs K2,000 now costs K28,000 under the new dawn.That does not speak to accountability and transparency.

Hon. UPND Members:Fire tenders!

Mr Mundubile:Madam Speaker, the ongoing procurement of fertiliser shrouded with confusion, cancellations, one after the other and the tenders under the Ministry of Health, do not certainly speak to transparency and accountability as was said by His Excellency the President.

Madam Speaker, at page 4, the President stated that:

“Our focus has been and remains that of transforming our country into an industrialised nation, with the participation of citizens and in partnership with the private sector, …”

Madam Speaker, our reaction is that whilst it is true that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has reduced the borrowing from outside, it also remains a notorious fact that the domestic debt has been increasing, especially in the last twelve months, from Treasury Bills, Government securities and bonds. When there is increased Government borrowing, what happens is reduced lending to the private sector, and as a result of that, the participation of the private sector as envisaged by the President in the report is also reduced. The result of that is unemployment and reduced industrialisation.

Madam Speaker, at page 5, the President referred to the national debt, something he termed as reckless borrowing in his statement. We have reservations on the use of the words ‘reckless borrowing’. There is a need to appreciate and understand the background to the borrowing referred to, in the context of Southern African Development Community (SADC) 2020 and Vision 2030 programmes. Zambia, as a country that is land-linked, needed to deal with the issue surrounding infrastructure. This was in a bid to respond to infrastructure development in support of regional integration. The economic transformation in the SADC region required adequate functioning infrastructure to guide the region towards front loading and industrialisation in the context of revolving technologies.

Madam Speaker, some of the projects that were obtained from this borrowing include the Kazungula Bridge in the Southern Province, the Kafue Hydro Power Plant, the Chingola/Solwezi Road, the Copperbelt 400 Kilometre Project (C400 Km Project), the Lusaka 400 Kilometre Project (L400 Km Project), many communication towers, primary and secondary schools, health posts, district hospitals and the three international airports to name but a few.

Madam Speaker, the President talked about the four strategic development areas of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), to include economic transformation and job creation, human and social development, environmental sustainability and good governance among others.

Madam Speaker, I want to focus on page 12, where the President spoke about mining. It is very clear that this is a very important sector of the economy, but you all agree with me that the President glossed over this subject. He spent very little time on this very important subject. We wished that the President would have spent more time talking about mining being an anchor of our economy.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that for the country to fully benefit from the mining sector, it will only be at a time that we are able to tax the mining sector appropriately. It is one thing to celebrate the investment of US$1.3 billion, but what is the real benefit to the Zambians? I wished that the same way we have been celebrating the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which only constitutes 4 per cent of the National Budget, is the same way that we could celebrate the benefit out of the US$ 1.3 billion. I encourage the Zambians, through Members of Parliament in this House, not to be used to celebrate small things.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Those are small things. Yes, it is a substantial amount of money, but those are small things.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: That is only 4 per centof the National Budget. Numbers do not lie. If Zambians were given an opportunity to participate only to the extent of 20 per cent out of the US$1.3 billion, it translates to US$270 million. Now do you know what that means? Whilst the 156 constituencies are celebrating K4 billion, twenty companies supplying to the mines are benefiting the same amount and you sit here and say question. I want your eyes to turn to the real things. The deal is not on the CDF. For me, remove me from there. I want you to put me where the mines are. That is where the money is. As Zambians, can we look at where the money is. Let us not be excited with the crumbs on the other side. Let us look at where the money is. What benefit is there out of the US$1.3 billion?

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: When as Zambians we begin to participate meaningfully in the mining sector, then we can have a benefit out of that.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No.65 on the Leader of the Opposition.

Madam Speaker, he stated that we should not be celebrating small things. Surely, in a normal sense, in the sensible head of a person –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members! I think he has stated the Standing Order.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Leader of the opposition, …

Mr Mundubile: The language.

Madam First Deputy Speaker:… he has not even finished his point of order.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

I allowed the hon. Member for Solwezi East to indicate his point of order. May the hon. Member for Solwezi East continue with his point of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much once again. Surely, with all sensibility, from a sensible Leader of the Opposition, is he in order to say –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, the word ‘sensible’ is unparliamentary. Can you withdraw the word ‘sensible’ and replace it with another word.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, is the reasonable Member of Parliament, the Leader of the Opposition, in order to state that we should not be celebrating small things? Is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which was increased from K1.6 millionto K25.7 million, which was not the case, a small thing that the Zambians should not celebrate? Every constituency is celebrating that this amount has been increased and the dividends are here to show.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: All I can say is that was the view of the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I will give you chance to also debate and bring out your views. As far as I am concerned, that was his view. There will be a time when hon. Ministers will also come in to respond to what the hon. Members are discussing. With that guide, as at now, that was his view. We can move on.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for recognising me to comment on the speech delivered by the Head of State on the occasion of the Official Opening of the Second Session of the Thirteenth –

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa:Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. Is Hon. Milupi in order to leave the Chamber before I debate when the issues that I am supposed to raise when contributing to the debate on the President’s Speech border on him? How does he leave the Chamber? Is he in order to leave the Chamber before I debate?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kawambwa, you are actually out of order. Like I indicated, hon. Ministers will come in to respond to the issues raised from Friday. So, as at now, you are free to debate without any response from the hon. Ministers.

May the hon. Member for Zambezi East continue.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, before that point of order, I had begun by saying that I thank you for recognising me to comment, on behalf of the people of Zambezi East, on the speech delivered by the Republican President on the occasion of the Official Opening of the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I will anchor my debate on the theme, which the President used to deliver his speech, contained on page 4 of the official speech that was circulated. In particular, I am interested in the expansion of the theme contained on page 3 of the same document. I found most of the details in the second paragraph on page 3, and I quote:

“During the past one year, the New Dawn Administration prioritised the implementation of socio-economic interventions aimed at stabilising, repairing and reviving our economy.”

 

Madam Speaker, I am particularly interested in the words stabilising, repairing and reviving the economy because these are the key words of what is contained in the rest of the speech. The introduction actually talks about the kind of economy we inherited. It also talks about what we have done so far in the past one year to be where we are and the economic indicators show the milestones we have achieved. The President then set the tone by giving the policy direction, which will speak to the Budget that is yet to be brought to the Floor of this House and, thereafter, we can now debate objectively. That is how organised people operate.

Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has been in office for one year and the indicators are very clear, and they show how much it has achieved. I actually heard the President talk about these indicators that include the inflation rate, which was hovering around 25.6 per cent last year in August and has reduced to a single digit of 9.8 per cent as at August this year. The other indicator is the import cover, which had suffered and was hovering around 1.9 months of import cover, and has now increased to well above three months of import cover, good enough to actually absorb any external shocks that would come to this country.

Madam Speaker, one important thing that our colleagues need to learn about these indicators is that the only one external shock that was very significant in this country which shook everybody is the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). You remember that at that time, the exchange rate went wild. We hit beyond K25/US$1. Look at where we are now; we are now at K15.3/US$1 because of good polices being put in place.For you to manage such economic indicators, you need a cover. That is the reason the President said that we now have enough foreign exchange reserves to cover such kinds of shocks which may happen in future. These are not just figures for purposes of entertaining people; these are important for investor confidence. That is the reason you are seeing that everyone wants to come and invest here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: You have heard of the announcement of the nickel project in the North-Western Province and the Kansanshi Expansion Project. All that confidence is coming because of these indicators I am alluding to.

Madam Speaker, I heard the Leader of the Opposition debate about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and underplay the milestones we have gained in implementing this enhanced CDF. It is unfortunate that he does not realise how this adds to the economy. The President alluded to the fact that he would want this economy to be built. Now that we have stabilised the economy, we need to grow it.

Madam Speaker, as at the mid-term review, we were growing at 4 per cent from negative 2 per cent, which these people left at us. We are now growing at 4 per cent. The growth is envisaged even in the CDF with the total participation of citizens through the creation of jobs, and wealth, through small businesses. The CDF is better placed to include the people in Katuntu, Mpidi –

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 on content of speech, with emphasis on Clause 2(d).

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is telling the House of an exchange rate that is not factual. We know he is looking for a job to replace Hon. Kapala, but is he in order to continue misleading this House when the whole country is watching?

I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, do you have evidence for the exchange rate at that time?

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, we have never reached twenty-five.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: He mentioned twenty-five.

Hon. Government Members: Twenty-three!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, he had no evidence for his own claims.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Zambezi East, I heard you mention twenty-five.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member who raised the point of order was listening to me attentively, I talked about inflation which had hit around 25 per cent. For the exchange rate, I stated that it was K23/US$1. It had reached K23/US$1, or somewhere there, and it has now been reduced to around K15.3/ US$1. I cannot be correct to the decimal point in figures. I am giving average figures here for the purpose of the debate. That is the direction.

Madam Speaker, I notice that my time is being chewed as I am explaining a point of order instead of concentrating on my debate. I seek your indulgence as regards the time because I still have a few points to make.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

From what I can conclude, the hon. Member was giving averages so he was in order.

As for the time, hon. Member for Zambezi East, I will give you one more minute so that you conclude, plus the stated minute on the watch. So, that makes it two.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, in winding up my debate, I was talking about the benefits that we have gotten from the CDF. The President talked about citizen participation in adding value to the economy or growing the economy. The CDF is better placed to include the people in all parts of the country. One most important issue here –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1840 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 21^st September, 2022.

____________