Wednesday, 27^th July, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

Madam Speaker: Hon Members, I wish to inform the House that pursuant to the suspension of Standing Orders 27 and 115, the following arrangements have been made:

   (a)     a second health break will be from 1840 hours to 1900 hours;

   (b)     dinner for hon. Members of Parliament will be served in the National Assembly restaurant, here at Main

            Parliament Buildings, soon after the conclusion of Business on the Order Paper; and

   (c)     dinner will be provided courtesy of yours truly.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_______

RULINGS BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR S. KAMPYONGO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SHIWANG’ANDU CONSTITUENCY AGAINST HON. C. MILUPI, ACTING MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY ON WHETHER THE MINISTER WAS IN ORDER TO STATE THAT HIS QUESTION DID NOT RELATE TO THE QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER NO 369 ON THE ORDER PAPER

Madam Speaker: Hon Members will recall that on Friday, 15^th July, 2022, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 369 and Hon. C. Milupi, MP, Acting Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security had just concluded responding to a follow-up question, Mr S. Kampyongo, Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Constituency raised a point of order.

In his point of order, Mr S. Kampyongo, MP, inquired whether Hon C. Milupi, MP, was in order to decline to answer his question because it was not related to Question for Oral Answer No. 369 on the Order Paper.

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling in order to study the matter. I have since studied the matter, and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order raises the issue of the Minister’s obligation to answer follow-up questions that arise from a question on the Order Paper.

I had recourse to the verbatim record of the parliamentary proceedings for Friday, 15^th July, 2022, to ascertain the question that was under consideration on the Floor of the House when Mr S. Kampyongo, MP, raised a point of order. The verbatim record reveals that the House was considering question No. 369 on the Order Paper which was asked by Mr G. Mwila, Member of Parliament for Mufulira Constituency addressed to the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. The Question was as follows:

“369. Mr Mwila (Mufulira) - to ask the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

     (a)     whether the Government is aware that some applicants on the waiting list for the issuance of passports

             are scheduled for emergency medical attention outside the country;

     (b)    if so, what measures are being taken to ensure that passports are urgently issued to the affected

            applicants to avert loss of life; and

     (c)   when the backlog on the issuance of passports will be cleared.”

Hon. Members, as you are aware, the responses to the question were provided by Hon. C Milupi, MP, then Acting Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

As a follow-up to Question No. 369, Mr S. Kampyongo, MP, asked how prepared the Government was to transition from the current passports to digital ones since the International Civil Aviation Organisation had set 2023 as the deadline for migration to digital travel documents.

In response, Hon. C. Milupi, MP, stated that Mr S. Kampyongo, MP’s, question was unrelated to the question on the Order Paper. He, therefore, requested him to file a separate question on the matter.

Hon. Members, I agree with Hon. C. Milupi, MP, that the question that was under consideration was not related to the issue of migrating from the current passports to digital ones. In view of this, Hon. C. Milupi, MP, was not out of order. Further, as indicated by Hon. Milupi, MP, in his response, if the hon. Member would like information on the progress made regarding migrating to digital passports, he should file a question with Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly.

I thank you.

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR C. ANDELEKI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KATOMBOLA CONSTITUENCY AGAINST MR M. ZULU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUMEZI CONSTITUENCY FOR MAKING RUNNING COMMENTARIES AND THREATENING THE CHIEF PARLIAMENTARY SECURITY OFFICER AND THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS ON WEDNESDAY, 23^RD MARCH, 2022

Madam Speaker: I order Mr Munir Zulu, MP, to stand behind the Bar of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I also instruct the Sergeant-at-Arms to take the Speaker’s mace and stand behind him.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 23^rd March, 2022, while the House was considering the Ministerial Statement by Hon Dr. S. Musokotwane, Minister of Finance and National Planning, Mr C. Andeleki, Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency, raised a point of order against Mr M. Zulu, Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency. Mr C. Andeleki, MP’s, point of order related to an incident that had occurred in the Chamber while the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker was reprimanding Mr M. Zulu, MP.

Hon. Members, in his point of order, Mr C. Andeleki, MP, asked whether Mr M. Zulu, MP, was in order to make running commentaries and threaten the Chief Parliamentary Security Officer and Sergeant-at-Arms by stating that she would need adequate security to handle him. Mr C. Andeleki, MP, further stated that the conduct exhibited by Mr M. Zulu, MP, was in conflict with parliamentary etiquette and decorum, and that if it remained unregulated, it would bring the name of the House into disrepute.

Hon. Members, in her immediate ruling, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling to enable her and the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services to study the matter. The matter was accordingly referred to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for consideration.

In line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, on 18^th May, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Mr M. Zulu, MP, requesting him to state his side of the story. In response, Mr M. Zulu, MP, stated that he recalled the point of order being raised against him, but could not recall uttering the words alleged. He further asked for video footage of the incident to be availed to him. In response to his request, the Office of the Clerk informed Mr M. Zulu, MP, that there was no video footage of the incident. He was further informed that the point of order was based on a complaint by an hon. Member who had witnessed the incident and further, that the incident was witnessed by the Chief Parliamentary Security Officer and Serjeant-at-Arms and other members of staff.

Hon. Members, on 1^st July, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to the members of staff who were present in the Chamber at the time the incident occurred, namely Mrs F. M. B. Mwanamakwa, Chief Parliamentary Security Officer and Sergeant-at-Arms, Mr J. Mkandawire, Printing Assistant, Mr P. Chola, Software Development Specialist and Mr C. Mutentwa, Network Security Specialist, to state what they knew about the matter.

The responses of the officers were as follows:

(a)        Mrs F M B Mwanamakwa - Sergeant-at-Arms

Mrs Mwanamakwa stated that Mr M. Zulu, MP, while flexing his muscles, and cracking his knuckles, said, in vernacular, translated as follows:

"That there was a lot of stupidity at Parliament and enough security should be called because there would be a fist fight that day.”

She further stated that when she asked him who he would fight with, he responded as follows:

“Just call enough security because I will start by grabbing that same thing you are holding.”

That was in reference to the Speaker’s mace –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We have a lot of work on our hands.

He was referring to the Speaker’s mace, while head counting the number of United Party For National Development (UPND) hon. Members of Parliament with his finger.

Lastly, she stated that when she requested Mr M. Zulu, MP, to stand still, he continued to make unnecessary movements while saying, in vernacular, translated as follows:

“They would fight that day and that she had better summon all her officers as she would fail to handle him.”

(b)        Mr Paul Chola - Software Development Specialist

Mr P. Chola stated that on the material day, he was assigned to manage the ICT Control Desk in the Chamber, together with Mr C. Mutentwa. He also stated that the Serjeant-at-Arms was truly victimised by Mr M. Zulu, MP, and that he personally felt unsafe, especially since he was very close to where the hon. Member was standing, behind the Bar.

(c)        Mr Clive Mutentwa - Security and Systems Specialist

Mr C. Mutentwa stated that on 23^rd March, 2022, he was assigned to work at the ICT Control Desk in the main Chamber, which was near the area where the Serjeant-at-Arms and Mr M. Zulu, MP, were standing when the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker was rendering her ruling.

He further stated that Mr M. Zulu, MP, made the alleged comments and had conducted himself as alleged.

(d)        Mr Jonathan Mkandawire - Publications Assistant

Mr J. Mkandawire stated that on the material day, he was assigned to work in the Chamber at the Control Desk, which was next to the Bar. He added that he heard Mr M. Zulu, MP, make a statement, in vernacular, translated as follows:

“She would need enough security because there would be a fist fight that day and she had better call all her officers because they would fail to handle him.”

Hon. Members, the complainant, Mr C. Andeleki, MP, the respondent, Mr M. Zulu, MP, and the relevant witnesses, appeared before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services. They submitted as follows:

(a)    Mr C. Andeleki, MP

 

Mr C. Andeleki, MP, submitted in line with his point of order. He stated that on the material day, he sat next to the Bar and heard Mr M. Zulu, MP, being advised to stand still by the Serjeant-At-Arms. He further stated that at that moment, he heard Mr M. Zulu, MP, threaten the Serjeant-At-Arms by saying that she would need enough security. He concluded his submission by stating that it was based on that conduct by the hon. Member that had prompted him to raise the point of order.

(b)    Mr M. Zulu, MP

Mr M. Zulu, MP, submitted that he had written to the Office of the Clerk requesting for video footage of the alleged incident, which was never availed to him. He stated that he feared that he was being put in harm’s way. He added that his fear was based on the fact that he had received another letter from the Office of the Clerk relating to an interview he had had on Diamond Television. He alleged that in that matter, the words he was alleged to have uttered and what was actually captured in the video footage were different. He further expressed concern that there was no evidence adduced by Mr C. Andeleki, MP, to support his allegation.

All in all, he denied threatening the Serjeant-at-Arms.

(c)        Mrs F. M. B. Mwanamakwa - Chief Parliamentary Security Officer and Sergeant-At-Arms

Mrs Mwanamakwa submitted that on the material day, as Mr M. Zulu, MP, was being reprimanded, he stood in between the two sides of the House, while she stood behind him with the Speaker’s mace. She submitted that Mr M. Zulu, MP, then begun making movements simulating a boxer, which prompted her to request him to stand still and ask if there was a problem. She stated that it was at that moment that the hon. Member threatened her, in vernacular, translated as follows:

“There is a lot of stupidity here at Parliament. You should call enough security as there will be a fist fight here today.”

She further stated that when she asked him who he would fight with, he responded that she should just call enough security because he would start by grabbing the Speaker’s mace.

(d)        Mr J. Mkandawire - Printing Assistant

Mr J. Mkandawire submitted that on the material day, he was assigned to operate in the Chamber at the Control Desk. He stated that he heard Mr M. Zulu, MP, tell the Serjeant-At-Arms, who was standing beside him, in vernacular, translated as follows:

“She would require adequate security that day.”

He further stated that whilst saying those words, Mr M. Zulu, was pacing around like a boxer in a ring. Lastly, he stated that he did not hear the Hon Member utter any other words.

(v)     Mr C. Mutentwa - Network Security Specialist

Mr Mutentwa submitted that on the material day, he was assigned to manage the sitting arrangement in the House and that he was stationed at the Control Desk. He narrated that while the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker was rendering her ruling, Mr M. Zulu, MP, was behind the Bar. He further narrated that he then heard Mr M. Zulu, MP, make some utterances, in vernacular, translated as follows:

         “There will be a fist fight today.” while taking off his wrist watch

He added that the Sergeant-at-Arms stood behind Mr M. Zulu, on the right hand side. Lastly, he stated that what he perceived on the material day was a threatening situation, which made him feel uneasy. He stated that at that point, he focused on protecting the ICT equipment that was being used.

(vi)    Mr P Chola - Software Development Specialist

Mr Chola submitted that on the material day, he was stationed at the Control Desk together with Mr C Mutentwa. He stated that he sat beside Mr M. Zulu, MP, as he stood at the Bar. He also stated that he witnessed Mr M. Zulu, MP, taking off his watch and putting it in his pocket, whilst uttering words in vernacular, which he could not recall.

Lastly, he stated that his focus was on protecting the ICT equipment because of Mr M. Zulu, MP’s, conduct on that day. He explained that Mr M. Zulu, MP, was counting the hon. Members on his left and was shuffling his legs as if he was warming up for something.

Hon. Members may wish to note that the point of order raised by Mr C. Andeleki, MP, raises the issue of an hon. Member breaching the rules of parliamentary etiquette and decorum by making running commentaries and issuing threatening remarks against a parliamentary officer.

Hon. Members, the National Assembly of Zambia, Standing Orders, 2021, are instructive in this regard. Standing order 203 (1) and (2) states as follows:

“203. (1) A member shall at all times conduct himself or herself in a manner that upholds the dignity, integrity and decorum of the House.

(2) A member shall not act in a manner that brings the House or other members generally into disrepute.”

Further, standing order 204 (1) and (2) define parliamentary etiquette and decorum. Standing order 204 (1) and (2) states-

“204. (1) Parliamentary decorum and etiquette refers to an essential standard of behaviour that a member must observe in the House in order to maintain the dignity and decency of the House.

         (2) A member shall observe the following rules of parliamentary etiquette:

(h) A member shall not obstruct, interrupt proceedings or make disruptive running commentaries when another member is speaking.”

Additionally, the erstwhile Speaker, Dr Patrick Matibini, SC. MP, had occasion to rule on a similar matter in the case of Dr C. Kambwili, former Member of Parliament for Roan Constituency, where Mr B.C. Lusambo, the then Minister for Copperbelt Province, was alleged to have been making running commentaries when Dr C. Kambwili, MP, was debating. The hon. Mr Speaker, stated, inter alia, as follows:

“… The conduct of House business is guided by rules, which are to be observed by Members at all times in the House. Some of the rules that Members are expected to observe are known as “rules of parliamentary etiquette”. The rules exist in order to maintain the decorum, dignity and integrity of the House.  In this regard, parliamentary etiquette forbids conduct that demeans the House.”

He further stated as follows:

“I have observed a disturbing trend by some members to resort to use of abusive language and threats of physical violence. This conduct not only offends the rules of the House, but also, unfortunately, seriously undermines the decorum and dignity of the entire House.

Hon. Members, after considering the written and oral submissions of the parties and witnesses, the Committee on Privileges and Absences established the following:

  (a)   the absence of video footage of the incident was not a bar to the proceedings because there were

         witnesses that had seen the incident;

  (b)  there were some inconsistencies in the witness statements, but the key witness’ testimony that

        Mr M. Zulu, MP, said that there would be a fist fight in the Chamber and there would be need for additional

        security was corroborated by other witnesses; and

  (c)   although Mr M. Zulu, MP, denied threatening the Sergeant-at-Arms, the testimony by the witnesses

         showed that he had threatened violence.

In view of the foregoing, the Committee found Mr M. Zulu, MP, in breach of parliamentary etiquette and in contempt of the House. In considering the punishment to mete out on Mr M. Zulu, MP, your Committee took into account the following:

   (a)    by threatening to grab the mace, which was a symbol of the Speaker’s authority, he had committed

           grave misconduct;

   (b)    this was the second time he had been found in breach of the rules of the House;

   (c)    at the time of the incident complained of, the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker was rendering a ruling

           against him which showed that he was unrepentant;

   (d)    he had denied the allegation and wasted the Committee’s time;

   (e)    he had not expressed any remorse for his conduct; and

   (f)     he was a new Member of Parliament and, therefore, was still in the process of learning the rules of the

          House.

Having regard to all these factors, the Committee resolved that Mr M. Zulu, MP, be suspended from the House for ten days. I endorse this recommendation of the Committee.

Therefore, in accordance with Section 28 (1) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, which requires a resolution of the House on a matter of this nature, I now put the question:

Question that the House accordingly suspends Mr M. Zulu, MP, for a period of ten days as recommended by the Committee on Privileges and Absences put and the House voted.

Division list yet to be submitted

Ayes –

Noes –

Abstentions –

Madam Speaker: I now turn to address you, Mr M. Zulu, MP.

I have to inform you, Mr M. Zulu, MP, that the House is extremely displeased with your gross misconduct of threatening the Sergeant-at-Arms and disrespecting the Speaker’s authority by threatening to grab the Speaker’s Mace. This conduct was not only disrespectful, but also brought the House into disrepute.

Mr M. Zulu, MP, you are aware or ought to be aware that the House has rules and procedures which ought to be followed. Therefore, your attack on the Sergeant-at-Arms in this august House amounted to gross misconduct and was totally unwarranted. Such conduct falls below the expected conduct of an hon. Member.

You, as an hon. Member of this august House, ought to know that your behaviour and conduct, both inside and outside the House, ought to be exemplary at all times and in all circumstances, so as to enhance the dignity of the House.

In view of the foregoing, you, Mr M. Zulu, MP, are suspended from the service of the National Assembly for ten days. The suspension is with effect from today, Wednesday, 27^th July to Friday, 5^th August, 2022. During your suspension, you shall not participate in any business or activity of this august House or its Committees. In addition, you shall not undertake any activity in your capacity as an hon. Member of Parliament in your constituency or, indeed, anywhere else. Additionally, no salary or allowance shall be paid to you. This is in accordance with Section 28 (2) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

 

I hope this will be the last time such undesirable conduct will be exhibited by yourself as an hon. Member of this House. I now order Mr M. Zulu, MP, to leave the Chamber through the main door on ten days suspension as resolved by the House.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu left the Assembly Chamber.

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Madam Speaker: We can make some progress. We have a long day before us. There is a matter of urgent public importance by the hon. Member for Chilubi.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, in the interest of time, I have withdrawn my matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member, for that exemplary behaviour.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to tell those who are outside using bananas that I have muscular youths in my constituency whom they can take advantage of.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Hon. Member, I did not hear what you were saying because there was noise. May you please repeat what you have said so that I hear it.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, those who are using bananas for farming can take advantage of my muscular youths to help them with their farming.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, how does the issue of bananas come in?

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I am promoting agriculture.

Laughter

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Order! Hon. Member for Mpika, Order!

Hon. Members, please bear in mind that we are here for serious business. Those innuendoes that you are bringing to this august House are not welcome. You can do that outside, not here. Can we make progress.

_______

MOTIONS

EMPLOY TEACHERS AGED OVER FORTY-FIVE YEARS OLD

Mr J. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to reintroduce sporting activities in school.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, it is seconded.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, let us follow the order of proceedings. We start with the first one for teachers. So, we can go through again.

Mr J. Banda: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to employ teachers aged over forty-five years old.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please read the Motion properly.

Mr J. Banda: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to employ teachers who are over forty-five years old in view of the late retirement age provided for under Section 9 of the National Pension Scheme Act.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr J. Banda: Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for according me this opportunity to move this Private Member’s Motion that seeks to urge the Government to employ teachers aged over forty-five years old.

Madam, from the onset, allow me to thank the New Dawn Government for successfully employing over 30,000 teachers. This is commendable as it will go a long way in reducing the level of unemployment in the country.

Madam Speaker, in contextualising my submission, allow me to give a brief background on the subject matter. The number of teachers recruited by the Government has been reducing over the years, with the last recruitment exercise having employed only about 1,432 teachers in 2021, based on their year of completion. The House may wish to note that one of the requirements in the 2021 teacher recruitment was that applicants must have completed and graduated in 2016 or earlier. This disadvantaged those who completed in 2017 to 2020.

Madam Speaker, consequently, the inability of the Government to employ the teachers on time led to some of the teachers finding themselves out of the bracket prescribed by the Teaching Council of Zambia (TCZ), which is eighteen to forty five years.

Madam Speaker, the decision by the TCZ not to employ teachers aged forty five years is not only retrogressive and unfair, but also tantamount to discrimination as provided for in the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019. Section 5 of the Act states that:

“an employer shall not, in any employment policy or practice discriminate, directly or indirectly, against an employee or a prospective employee –

(a) on grounds of colour, nationality and status, among others.”

Madam Speaker, employment is a human rights issue. Therefore, as part of the international community, Zambia has signed the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), which guarantees the right to work. The ICESCR states that every individual has a right to work and to just and favorable conditions of work.

Madam Speaker, allow me to mention that we are aware that the rationale for not employing teachers aged over forty five years was premised on the provision of the National Pension Scheme Act No. 7 of 2015, which requires an employee to have made not less than180 monthly contributions to qualify for pension. This is provided for in Section 18 of the Act, which states that:

1. Subject to the provisions of this Act, a member shall retire upon attaining pensionable age.

 

     2.  a member may retire on attaining the age of –

 

     (a)  fifty-five years if, 12 months before attaining that age, the member notifies the contributing employer of the

          member’s intention to retire at that age; or

     (b)  sixty-five years if, 12 months before attaining the pensionable age, the member notifies the contributing

          employer of the member’s intention to retire at the age of 65 years and the employer approves the

          retirement.

     3.  “a member who retires in accordance with sub-section (1) or (2) and has made not less than 180 monthly

          contributions, shall be paid a pension.”

 

Madam Speaker, let me state that the fundamental purpose of employment is not to get a pension, but to earn a living. In addition, the National Pension Scheme Act was amended by the National Pension Scheme Act No. 7 of 2015, to provide for early, normal and late retirement. Section 9 of the Act provides that:

“(1)      The Authority shall pay pension benefits to a member who-

 

     (a)  retires from employment on reaching the retirement age;

     (b)  retires five years before he reaches pensionable age and has contributed to the Scheme for a minimum

           period prescribed by the Authority; and...”

Madam Speaker, in this regard, the 180 monthly contributions translate to fifteen years. This implies that an employee must have worked for at least fifteen years to qualify for a pension under the Act. It, therefore, follows that an individual who is fifty years can be employed and still qualify for pension benefits upon attaining the age of sixty five years.

 

In addition, you may wish to note that some of the applicants were working in private schools and other fields. Therefore, they have been contributing to the authority. This does not mean that when they are employed by the Government, their contributions to the authority ceases. To the contrary, their previous contributions are taken into account. This means that, even if they are above forty five years, they may still meet the 180 contributions as required by the Act.

Madam Speaker, further, the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019 is the principal law that regulates employment in Zambia. The Act provides an avenue through which teachers could be employed. Section 19 (1) of the Act states that”

“(1)      A contract of employment may take one of the following forms:

     (a)   permanent contract,

     (b)   contract for long term,

     (c)  contract for a specific task and

     (d)  contract for a probationary period not exceeding 3 months.”

Madam Speaker, in view of this, there are so many individuals who are employed in Government on contract basis, like our first born youth who is abroad. Some are retirees who were recalled on contracts. Therefore, it is unfair to deny employment to teachers who are above forty-five years old when they can be recruited on contract basis, unlike rendering them ineligible for recruitment.

Madam Speaker, I also want to state that some of the citizens could not complete their education on time, like me, owing to various reasons, such as lack of financial support. Therefore, through adult education offered by various institutions, both public and private, they have been provided with a second chance in order to achieve social justice and equal access to education. It is, therefore, disheartening for such individuals who have made strides to attain education only to be rejected by the same Government which is supposed to employ them.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by stating that the decision taken by the TCZ to exclude teachers who are above forty five years is unfair, discriminatory and must be rescinded, unless you are not a parent like those who are above forty-five years.

Madam Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion which must be supported by all hon. Members of this august House as it seeks to urge the Government to seriously consider employing teachers who are above forty-five years.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to second this Motion that has ably been moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke.

Madam Speaking, in seconding this Motion, I wish to state from the onset, that I do support this Motion for it is non-contentious and seeks to provide opportunities equitably to all qualified teachers who are, of course, part of the people who brought us to this august House.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for PetaUK has brought out very pertinent issues in his submission. The issues he has raised border on the legislation that obviously guides this subject that we are discussing today.

Madam Speaker, firstly, is the public sector Employment Code Act No 3 of 2019, The National Pension Scheme Act and not forgetting the regulations that apparently have been relied on over the issue of the forty-five year old capping.

I wish to put in context that other than the regulations that guide the Ministry of Education in putting the forty-five years old capping, the two legislations that guide employment of individuals into the public sector does not dictate age. Therefore, one would wonder why we must rely on this very controversial dictate that guides people who should go into the public sector.

Madam Speaker, it must be noted from the outset, as ably stated by the hon. Member from PetaUK, that the reason we go into employment is not to get a pension. In any case, there is a misconstruction as to what a pension means. A pension is in two forms –

Mr Chonde: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chonde: Madam Speaker, I think I made a mistake when I was opening the gadget.

Madam Speaker: I was wondering because you are not in the habit of doing such.

Laughter

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I am very sorry to rise on this point of order. My point of order is based on Standing Order 65.

Madam Speaker, whatever we debate here goes into the Hansard of Parliament and it is very important that the people out there are given correct information. In this Republic of Zambia, there is no constituency called Mpetauke…

Hon. Member: PetaUK!

Mr Mutale: Or PetaUK. There is only Petauke.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member debating in order to continue misleading the people out there and the House that the person who moved this Motion is a Member of Parliament for MpetaUK?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much hon. Member for Chitambo for that observation. There is a tendency by the hon. Member for Petauke and his Colleagues that follow to say PetaUK. Hon. Members, there is no constituency called PetaUK, but Petauke. So, please we should not mislead the country through the use of slang.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member proceed, but please refer to the correct constituency.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, we were born after computers, no wonder the slang.

Madam Speaker, let me state the point that I was making before I was interrupted by my elder brother, who should have let me flow with my debate. The point I was making is that there is a misconception that one must get into employment and always looking out for a pension. In which case, the Ministry of Education has greatly misunderstood what a pension means. According to the National Pension Scheme Act, a pension is that package one gets when he/she attains pensionable age, which was previously twenty years, but the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) revised it to fifteen years. Meaning that, anyone who serves in a Government position qualifies to get that pension or package after he attains the age of fifteen translated into 180 contributions. Anyone who fails to attain the age of fifteen still qualifies for a pension, save for, it is not that pension that everybody envisage, it is called a lump sum. Therefore, the restriction that for one to be employed, he/she must be able to qualify for the fifteen years is wrong and misconstrued because at whatever age you get employed into the public sector, you still do qualify for a pension, save for if you do not reach fifteen years, you only qualify for a lump sum.

Madam Speaker, let me preempt submissions I feel may be made by those I feel will stand up to object to this Motion, namely that the argument that has been advanced so far is that if we employ people who are over forty-five years, they will take up the chances that youths should have taken up. There is no issue of youths here because in any case, the people who are above forty-five years are no longer youths. This requirement is dictating that only those who above forty-five. Let us ask ourselves a question. Who has the duty to employ people when they leave school? It is the Government. It is the failure of the Government to have employed people who were of a tender age that has resulted in some being outside the age bracket as dictated by the Ministry of Education.

In any case, Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government has made a pronouncement that it is going to liquidate the backlog of all the teachers who have not been employed.

Madam Speaker, let me bring it to this House that the people who are over forty-five years only represent less than 15 per cent of the backlog. Today, I want to put it on record and commend the New Dawn Government. The indication so far is that the commitment of the New Dawn Government is such that it can take up the entire backlog because initially, it has started with 30,000 teachers. So, what can stop the Government from liquidating the entire backlog? One would have therefore, thought that it would have been prudent that if the forty-five years and above who have qualified, are less than 15 per cent, why do we not then give them an opportunity because they only account for less than 3000 teachers. Why do we not employ them and then employee the rest, who are 27,000, who we can qualify to be youthful?

Madam Speaker, you need to know that according to the National Population Survey, Zambia’s life expectancy has increased. The 2018/2030 National Population Policy has dictated that Zambia’s life expectancy is expected to increase to above 65 years old. Now, this revelation to me indicates that we are now in the right position to be able to remove the forty-five years dictation. In any case, every Zambian is entitled to have a job.

Madam, the argument that has been advanced by many is that there are many opportunities available even for the teachers who have been left out. The argument is that they can even open schools, but we are talking about over 3,000 teachers. How many schools can be opened by those teachers? It will only be prudent that we give, an opportunity to everyone. After all, we have been elected to come here to represent every Zambian regardless of his/her age.

Madam Speaker, I put it to the House that the law does not support the forty-five year capping because both regulations that we have cited do not support what has been envisioned by the regulation the Ministry of Education is relying on to dictate that anyone to be employed in the public sector must be forty-five and below. Therefore, in supporting this Motion, I urge all hon. Members who have relatives and children to think of the plight of those, …

Madam Speaker: Order, Order!

Mr B. Mpundu: …teachers and support this Motion.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: Now, this is how we are to proceed. I acknowledge that the Motion is very important and the people of Zambia would want to know how the Government wishes to proceed on this matter, but because of insufficient time, I will allow one hon. Member from each side of the House to debate and then I will call on the hon. Minister to respond and we wind up.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, clearly there is an assumption by the mover of the Motion that once someone is trained as a teacher, the only work they can do is teaching. That is not the case. We have teachers who are working as bankers. I will try to be as candid as possible. Then coming to the issue of age, another argument will be that forty-five years is a bit tricky. The reason is very simple. If I am to ask the mover of the Motion how old he is or, indeed, the seconder, clearly most of these, –

Hon. Members: Hear. Hear!

Mr Mung’andu: It is just an example. Clearly, even –

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Nkana, you are the seconder of the Motion. You debated and everybody listened to you. Let us also listen to other views.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I will give a very balanced view. I know he is worried. A number of hon. Members of Parliament here including myself, have not yet reached forty-five. Now, can you imagine me going into the Civil Service when I am forty-five. At what age did these teachers complete their teaching programmes? These are things that we should be asking ourselves. How many generations or graduations have taken place and how many youths are out there? Let us understand that our hon. Colleagues were voted into office by youths. So, the Government wants to absorb as many youths as possible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, in our country, youths are those aged below thirty-five years. Now we are talking of forty-five. If you are forty-five and you want employment, then there is something wrong.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I speak as someone who left the university and I have never gone into the Ministry or Governments seeking employment, but here I’m. I am a Member of Parliament. Our people should start understanding that opportunities are not only in the Civil Service.

Hon. Member: Correct!

Mr Mung’andu: If anything, you are keeping yourselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: If you have a Government that ensures transparency and accountability, opportunities might be very limited. We are in a free market economy with so many schools. As we speak, private schools are advertising vacancies. Let those who are forty-five years old and above try to fill up the positions being created by the private sector.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, here is a situation – I said I will be candid and balanced. We have found ourselves in a quagmire, a situation where it is not the fault of those aged forty- five and above who wished to work for our Government or in the public sector. It is not their fault. It is because opportunities were not there for them. Now, how do we balance? How is the absorption rate? I would like the hon. Minister to come and respond to this.

Hon. Member: In conclusion.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I have not concluded. You air your own views. This is my personal submission.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chama South! Just take your seat please. Hon. Members, please, we have a lot of work that needs to be attended to today. Let the hon. Member have freedom to debate as he wishes. That is his own view, after all. Other people will be given a chance to also debate. If you have a burning point, write it down, so that when your chance comes, you will be able to articulate it. Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, thank you. The point I was trying to drive home is that we understand that it is not their fault. However, they have reached forty-five and they were not absorbed into the public sector. We understand that. Probably, as the hon. Minister responds, I would like to make a suggestion. My suggestion is that the Government should start with youths. I do not think it will employ the thirty-five year old and end at that. My understanding is that it will not employ the thirty-five year old and then take another ten or fifteen years before employing again. My understanding is that the Government has a programme which it is following.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, we were told on the Floor of this House, that the Government will employ a certain number this year, and next year, it might also employ another number.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, that is what I remember. So, my suggestion is, after you take care of the youthful teachers, whom we do not want to also get contaminated, by ensuring that they are quickly assimilated into the Civil Service, you should again come back and take care of the ones aged forty-five years. I only hope they will be forty-five then.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, they may not be forty-five, but they may be approaching retirement age. In terms of statistics, he has said they are, is it three thousand? Decision making has to be backed by empirical evidence. My understanding is that they looked at the numbers probably, there are more young graduands than those aged forty-five years and above. No wonder they have targeted that age. Therefore, my appeal to the Government is that going forward, as it employs teachers, which is very progressive, it should take care of the age aspect. We congratulate the Government on this.

Madam, I know we are going into the census exercise which will give us more information. After analysing the information, the Government must come back and consider the forty-five year olds as replacement and fill ups because whether we like it or not, as we are speaking, some are separating from the teaching service in the entire country. Kindly use those processes to take care of these people who are forty-five years and above.

In conclusion, hon. Member for Petauke, who has moved the Motion, I wish to state that I am in support of your Motion, but, –

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Clearly, I am in support of your Motion, but with these suggestions.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I was thinking twice about debating this Motion. However, I wish to speak for those whom others fear to speak for. Imagine if we said that we should not elect Members of Parliaments (MPs) who have reached the age of forty five, I would not be in this Parliament.

Mr B. Mpundu Walikwata amano iwe!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, I want to put it on record that it is not the first time that there is an age cap in recruitment and as such, the New Dawn Government has found this as part of the practice. However, in my submission, I would like to outrightly support this Motion because it is progressive.

Madam Speaker, we cannot have recruitment policies that are discriminatory. It is the duty of Governments to create employment, and if previous Governments did not create employment, it is not the fault of the citizens. Governments are successive and now, the New Dawn is in power. As such, it must take responsibility of the mistakes made by previous Governments. Section 5 (2) of the Employment Code talks about a discriminatory recruitment policy. There are those who have not had an opportunity to go to school because of financial resources. I see such in my constituency, and those are the ones I want to speak for. If a recruitment policy limits people who are alive–Yesterday we had people supporting people who are eighty years old to sit on boards. What is wrong with recruitingteachers who qualify to be recruited?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: We need to have a serious and honest conversation about governance. We are elected as representatives to serve the people. We are not elected to appease discriminatory policies.

Madam, I would like to support this Motion by saying that this Government must consider this Motion for the reasons I want to stipulate. Number one, employment provision is a right and is a responsibility of a Government. The reasons that the Patriotic Front (PF) did not employ are being advanced on the Floor of this House. We are now going into eleven months of the New Dawn being in Government, the time has come to take responsibility and advance proper reform. Therefore, the Government should not use previous Governments as a yardstick for its performance because we expect more. Politicising policies in this country is what has destroyed it in the first place.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, the only yardstick the New Dawn Government has is for itself to do better and we know they have the competence. I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister for the successful recruitment process of over 30,000 teachers. It is unprecedented. We congratulate him and as such, we are now urging him to extend his skills in supporting this Motion, not because it is coming from the left or the right but because it is a Motion that looks at the humanitarian issues that are underlying our country.

Madam, as a country, we have policies promoting General Certificate of Education (GCE). We have a girlchild who drops out of school because of early pregnancy. She is married off and then has two more children. She decides to go back to school in her late thirties, and she is now forty-five. Today, I should stand here and say I am not in supporting of the Motion? What I am talking about?

Mr B. Mpundu: Imagine!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, the gender which is most affected by this Motion female. Therefore, I do agree there are several jobs that people can do, but where are the jobs? It is very easy to talk about several jobs, but those jobs must be there. When we talk about issues to do with discriminatory employment policies, we are not saying that they are cast in concrete. That is why we are politicians and lawmakers. They must be subject to reform.

Madam, we also have a situation where there were these teachers who were teaching in private schools. After the advent of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), some of these schools closed permanently and the teachers are now unemployed. I know that the Government is not the sole employer. As such, in the right sense of thinking, the private sector should drive the employment agenda because it is more efficient and it is able to absorb quicker than the Government. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the Government to increase and grow the private sector, which I feel the current Government is on the right trajectory to do.

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: Therefore, Madam Speaker, we need to offer a solution to this bracket of teachers who are qualified and are above forty-five, and this solution includes allowing them to be employed.

Madam Speaker, I do not think there will be anything disastrous about having such a policy. In fact, the policy of employing those below the age of forty-five years is not supported by any law.

Mr B. Mpundu: No!

Mr Wamunyima: Therefore, I would like to outrightly support this Motion on the basis that it is non-political, non-controversial and there is nothing wrong with moving forward. We are looking at the past with lenses that we should use to learn and move on.

Madam, at the end of the day, I represent a hugely underdeveloped constituency, but I cannot keep on talking about my predecessor. I have now taken the responsibility to speak as a voice. Therefore, I will challenge any lawmaker who would say that they do not have teachers in their constituency who are above the age of forty-five. That would be interesting to learn because when it comes to the issue of unemployment, especially in the education sector, the absorption capacity has been extremely low and has not been proportionate to the growth fundamentals of the population. Even the teacher-pupil ratio for the last five years has been extremely bad.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the Motion that was ably moved by the hon. Member for Petauke Central and seconded by the hon. Member for Nkana.

Madam, from the outset I would like to state my position on the Motion. I do not support the Motion

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: As expected!

Mr Kambita:I will give my reasons in my discourse.

Madam, as good as the Motion sounds on humanitarian grounds to try and provide employment to everyone, even people aged sixty years will start looking for ways on how the Government can find them employment. However, in every game, there are rules. I will give you an example. When we have recruitment for military personnel, there are always limitations on the age at which the people to be absorbed would need to be.

Madam, in any institution, even in the private sector, there is always some prescribed age. In short, every selection and recruitment process involves job specifications. It is a criterion of the selection process because all and sundry are eligible to apply for whichever job has been advertised. Now, if we consider all and sundry, and we are looking at the entire population, selection would be very difficult and complex. That is why by exception, age limits are given as a yardstick.

Madam, in this recruitment process, there were only 30,000 plus teachers to be recruited. Therefore, that age limit was inevitable. It just had to be put there as one of the processes of recruitment selection and recruitment.

Madam Speaker, here is another situation. There are generations that come in life. It is just natural that there are generations. In Zambia, we complete high school at about eighteen years, these days even at fifteen and sixteen years. People are completing secondary school in Grade 12 at sixteen. I know we are not allowed to debate ourselves, but I think my children have been completing school at seventeen years old or somewhere there. I completed high school at eighteen years and went into tertiary education.

Madam, do not think that in that year, there are no other people. It is a generation. So, just think about it. How manyGrade 12 pupils complete in a particular year? Of those who have completed, how many have gone into teacher training and then obtained qualifications? So, it is generation after generation. Now, from around eighteen years, if you went into tertiary education, say at age twentyor twenty-one, for arguments sake, you would be done in three years and would have obtained a diploma in teaching or maybe in four years if you went for the degree programme. At twenty-five years, someone would have been qualified and ready to go and teach.

So, if at twenty-five years, that generation is left out, how many years are there between twenty-five and forty-five? Just do your mathematics. How many years are there between twenty-five and forty-five? There are several years. You are talking of twenty solid years. In twenty solid years, there are about twenty generations, so to speak, if you are to count. Now, these twenty must be disregarded and we should consider somebody who went into tertiary education at forty.

So, we need to think about this logically even as we bring such a Motion to simply try and please the public. You have heard that the people who are affected are just about 3,000. There are many other avenues through which those people can be absorbed into employment.

Madam Speaker, employment has been created. Look, when we created employment through the jobs that we advertised, where we have employed over and above 30,000, we created vacancies in many private institutions. Therefore, teachers are required in those institutions. Many of the young people who could not be absorbed by the Government of these people (looking at hon. PF Members), who failed to employ teachers for many years found where to hang in the private schools.

Now, finally, those young people have been offered permanent and pensionable employment in Government, creating vacancies in the private institutions. So, if you really care about our brothers and sisters who have been left out on account of that age limit, it would be wise to advise them to apply in these institutions which have vacancies which are so many. That is the logical approach.

Madam Speaker, we need to look at it logically. We should not just bring in a Motion just to try and create some political mileage by trying to put pressure on the Executive just because there is an opportunity. We need to look at it logically. That is the reason I cannot support such a frivolous Motion brought here just to try and win people’s hearts to show that you care. When there are facts clearly here to show how people suffered all these years without employment.

So, if we are to compare between us who have even employed 30,000 plus people in a year and people who never even cared and where only able to employ a maximum of just about 2,000 in a year. Who is on point? You remain to answer that question.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I have been observing here that most of you are in breach of Standing Order No. 204 (2) (h). You are running commentaries and disrupting the proceedings.

Mr B. Mpundu: It pains.

Madam Speaker: Please, there is no pain that will entitle you to breach the Standing Orders.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, it is really sad that when a very progressive Government which has embarked on a progressive journey of creating employment, a few hon. Members can try to sabotage what the New Dawn Government has started with.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Education for the 30,000 plus teachers who have been recruited and that is how it should be. This Government has beaten the three years of Mr Michael Sata who tried to employ but only went up to 5,000 in three years. This Government has done it in one year. That is a plus to the people of Zambia.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam, that is excellent and I am expecting to hear the other 9,000 who will be employed tomorrow. My disappointment is looking at people who are forty-five years old and the Government saying it cannot employ them. Some hon. Members here come from very privileged families. Others come from families like mine, which are not privileged. Our generation is one which has started having kids who are privileged. The people who were born along the borders of Angola and Zambezi, Mozambique and Nyimba and in the valleys from Livingstone to Muchinga Province –

Madam Speaker, before I talk about that point, let me thank the New Dawn Government for increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I come from an area where we did not have schools. I used to walk 9 km to school and another 9km back home. Now, the Government is saying it will not get these people who graduated – you may wish to note that even today, there are people in rural areas who are fourteen years old or fifteen years old and they are in Grade 7. These are children who come from underprivileged families and only complete their education at twenty-three years old. They do not have money to go to college. They have to go and find work in farms and raise money to go to school and graduate at thirty –two years.

So, when the Government is employing 1,000 teachers a year, surely, do you expect it to absorb all the people who are going to graduate in that generation? No. It is just important that the good process which the Government has started is extended to the people who were not given chance some time back.

Madam Speaker, it will be very sad for the hon. Members on your right –  sorry you said we should not debate ourselves, but it is very emotional when people with a very good policy on employment – no one can beat you from 1964 to date on that employment policy but you want to disturb it with a very simple thing.

Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) led Government has a chance today to show people that it can do what is right. What is right is to give equal chances to everyone. Teachers who are forty-five years old have been left out. The people who have been left out will be forty-six years next year, and the Government is saying it cannot employ them. Whose responsibility is that? The Government is responsible for every Zambian. That Government is the UPND led Government because it is managing the affairs of this country, I ask in a very progressive manner to please help those teachers.

Some of you are lucky that you went to the university at twenty years or twenty-three years. There are people who are at the university today, and they are fifty years old. That does not mean that the Government has no regard for them or that it cannot employ them.

Madam Speaker, the biggest problem that we are going to have if we leave these people out is that we are going to discourage people from the rural areas. Many of these teachers come from rural areas and these are the people who are showing the locals that education is good. However, if the Government says it cannot employ them, how is it going to encourage the under privileged children to go to school?

Madam Speaker, I know that by 2030, we need to attain the education for all goal in our country. How can we do that when the few role models in these rural communities cannot be given jobs by the Government? It is sad.

Madam Speaker, as I am standing here, of the eleven teachers I sponsor with allowances, only one was picked, and the oldest among these teachers is forty-three years old. This means that next year, this teacher will be forty-five years old, not that he does not have qualifications, but maybe because he has got no connections within that system. When it comes to results, he got very good results at Grade 12. He has a degree in mathematics but was left out. So, what are we saying? Are we encouraging these people or throwing them?

Madam Speaker, yes, the system says it can only accommodate a certain number and he was left out. So, next year, the Government will not employ him because he will be forty-four, no. My plea to the hon. Minister is that this is just a policy. It is not law and not backed by any Act of Parliament. So, we cannot respect it. If the Government wants, it can bring an Act or a Motion to bar people who are forty-five years from accessing jobs in Government, so that even the District Commissioners (DCs) you have employed in this Government should not be above forty-five years because you are saying that the Government cannot –

Hon. PF Members: And hon. Ministers.

Mr Menyani Zulu: No. we cannot debate ourselves.

So, let the DCs you have employed who are over forty-five years be fired. Let the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) who are over forty-five years be fired because this is what you are saying. So, my plea to this able Government, very able for that matter, is: can you please do the right thing which you have started. Please, do not be disturbed because you are looking at the one who has presented this Motion as an Independent hon. Member and you start looking through other lenses that he is in Opposition. That is not going to help this country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, before I proceed, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members for Nkana and Kabushi, please do not debate while seated. I have been saying this. This is a warning. May the hon. Minister proceed.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, before I proceed with the Motion, allow me to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation to His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, for being consistent in his desire to transform the education sector, and for believing that education can change this country to a better society to live in through the development of human capital.

Madam Speaker, the category we are talking about or the would-be teachers we are talking about in this Motion, is those whose ages are forty-six, forty-seven, forty-eight, forty-nine and fifty years and wishing to join the teaching fraternity on first entry to teach our learners who will be our future leaders to rule this country. This is against the late retirement age clause which can only accommodate an officer on a special request or on the condition that the employer is satisfied to warrant the late retirement. In the event that that permission to retire late is not granted, the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) will continue to grapple with employee retirement related challenges that can be avoided.

Madam Speaker, in its determination to improve the management of the Public Service and in order to provide a conducive environment for an efficient Public Service delivery system, the Government found it necessary to revise the Service Commissions regulations and general orders. This enabled Public Service employees to carry out their duties expeditiously resulting in quality service delivery to the people of Zambia. Therefore, it is essential to appreciate that these provisions in the current state are working well and that maintaining the status quo is prudent. Any effort to depart from these rights and obligations will cause maladministration and the general public will suffer the consequences.

Madam Speaker, notwithstanding all these arguments and counter arguments, the Government provides employment for candidates above forty-five years on contracts. This provision allows the Government to employ and benefit the candidates in possession of rare and unique skills and qualifications who are above the age limit for employment on permanent and pensionable basis. So, it is already there, okay. However, we are saying that they have to be employed on contract. So you cannot urge somebody who is already doing that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: It is only that when it came to the net recruitment, in 2015, we were looking at the scope of the age group as well to put inside there. If the system was working properly, today we would not even have had this backlog that we are struggling to dismantle. The 30,000 are not potatoes, those are human beings. They are 30,000 plus human beings.

So, maybe, let me even take this opportunity, Madam Speaker, to say that people should not despair. We had more than 100,000 applicants and out of that, we only needed 30,000, which we got. It was a mammoth task.. Those people who were not picked should not despair because we will be progressively dismantling this number. I have already stated that those who are above forty-five years can be put on contracts that are renewable. In any case, we already do that. When we had no teachers at all, we would go and get those who were already pensionable back to class but on contract. So, I want to believe that you now see, mover, that we are already doing these things.

If in the last ten years, Madam Speaker, we had been employing 20,000 teachers every year, we would have wiped all the teachers who were on the street. We are still thirsty for teachers. Even these who have remained have remained to save money. We do not have enough teachers. We have a deficit of 115,000 teachers, meaning that if you remove the 30,000, we still have a deficit, a big one. However, the mischievousness in the last ten years has brought us here.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: However, we want to work. In any case, for me, it is not actually employment, it is getting people to go and feed them in the classroom. That is the idea. So, there is no employment here. Yes, it looks like employment, but the desire of that child is to have a teacher inside the classroom. If we had our way, we would have got all of them. Still more, there were 108,000 who applied and the deficit is 115,000. So, even if we wiped all of them, we would still have a deficit. The danger is if this was not pronounced by the Head of State, twenty years from now, we were going to have a complete deficit of teachers, a situation that may require us to have to get some from outside. So, the President has actually helped. After his ten years term, he would have helped two more Presidents after himself.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: People had stopped applying to go to colleges of education because it was meaningless. This is what we got from the ground from many universities and colleges. No one was applying. However, immediately people heard that the Government was going to employ 30,000, applications started going to colleges.

Hon. Government Member: Appetite.

Mr Syakalima: Yes. Appetite has been created. So, the New Dawn Government is up and running.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to wind up debate.

Madam Speaker, I thank everyone who has debated. However, I am very disappointed with the hon. Members for the good people of Zambezi and Chama ...

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: ... because in their campaigns, many teachers above forty-five were campaigning for these hon. Members and they promised them that they would help push them for employment. I am sure the good people of Zambezi and Chama are following what is happening in this House.

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, this Government is for everyone, regardless of age. That is why here, we have got youths, we have women, we –

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, our rules of the House do not allow us to debate ourselves and personalise debate. The mover of the Motion had his own opinion. He coined this Motion in his own head and brought it here for us to comment, and we have given our views on it. Is he in order to come here and start de-campaigning me to the people of Zambezi East for exercising their wishes on the Floor of this House by not supporting a frivolous Motion?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke, do not debate other hon. Members, just stick to the Motion and only wind up debate. Do not bring in new issues, you may proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, this Government is for everyone and the President loves everyone. That is why when he was making appointments, he did not choose youths and say, ‘the youths are the ones who formed this Government, so, let me give the jobs to the them alone.’ I am sure we have seen that all the – let me do my work.

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke please, wind up debate.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, that is why the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema appointed people to serve in his Government according to generations, to involve everyone and he never specified that he only wanted the youths or maybe, women, but even old folks are there ...

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: ... because even today, if we say that in this Parliament, when we got independence, I am sure we all recall that the oldest member in Cabinet was Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe, may his soul rest in peace. He was forty-four years old, and if we had maintained that age requirement clause, I am sure most of these old folks were not going to be here. At forty-two, ...

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: ... but because we want wisdom from them, kwasu tilabila kuti olo nkhalamba pa munzi tuzifuna ndiye zu pasa wisdom.

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam, meaning we still need the old folks because they are the ones who can give the young ones wisdom. Now, if we say that the President should just appoint the youth, who, then is going to give them wisdom? So, when it comes to employing teachers, we cannot just say that only youths should be employed. The old folks should also be employed. Like in my constituency, I have got teachers who have been volunteering for more than twelve years now. So, you can image at each and every recruitment, they have not had chance to be recruited.

Interjections

Mr J. E. Banda: Olo sini ziba chizungu ni siyeni ayi!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Apa as long ni chita debate mukumva.

Hon. Government Members: Meaning?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam, meaning, even if I do not know English, everyone understands what I am communicating.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Education for agreeing that some teachers will be given jobs on contracts. I urge him to also make that public. He should advertise that so that even people in my constituency can apply for contract jobs.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I say thank you to everyone and –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, but, because we do not have enough time, we have to curtail the debate.

Question that this House urges the Government to employ teachers who are over forty-five years old put and negatived.

RE-INTRODUCE SPORTING ACTIVITIES IN SCHOOLS

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to re-introduce sporting activities in schools.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, before I deliver my speech, allow me to thank you most sincerely for giving me the privilege to move this Private Member’s Motion urging the Government to re-introduce sporting activities in schools.

Madam Speaker, from the onset, allow me to point out that sport is a universally accepted recreational activity whose values and principles are upheld globally regardless of ethnic, cultural or social differences. In addition, sport has a distinctive ability to entertain, inspire unity, and express human rights and dignity, especially among children.

 

Madam Speaker, this Motion, therefore, is partly anchored on the right of the child to engage in play and recreational activities as enshrined in Article 31 (1) of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) which Zambia signed on 30^th September, 1990, and ratified on 6^th December, 1991, without any reservations. This right entails that the Government has an obligation to guarantee appropriate measures including the provision of sporting activities for all children including those in schools.

 

Madam Speaker, further, Government’s obligation to provide sporting activities in schools is primarily guaranteed through the ministries responsible for education and sport. This obligation is further guaranteed in Section 9 (d) and (j) of the Sports Council of Zambia Act, Cap 142 of the Laws of Zambia. The Act stipulates the following functions of the Council:

     (a)  develop, promote, control and encourage all forms of amateur and professional sports on a national basis

           in conjunction with national sports associations; and

     (b)  stimulate, through the appropriate authorities, the provision, development, and maintenance of equipment

          and facilities for all kinds of sports and ensure their equitable distribution and proper use.

Madam Speaker, allow me to apprise the House that more than 53.4 per cent of Zambia’s population comprises children who are 18 years and below, majority of them are enrolled in primary and secondary schools. The population of children in Zambia places a huge responsibility on the Government to ensure that sporting activities are accessible to children and all learners in schools.

Madam Speaker, sporting activities in Zambian schools were discontinued by the Ministry of Education owing to the suspension of grants for purchasing sports equipment, rehabilitating sports facilities and conducting inter-schools competitions countrywide. In addition, the Government suspended sporting activities as part of the social distancing guidelines during the emergence of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19).

Madam Speaker, it is therefore, imperative that the Government reintroduces sporting activities in schools because sport is an important undertaking which significantly contributes to the overall development of the education sector. In addition, sporting activities in schools contribute to the growth of sports, tourism and infrastructure development. Further, sport can bring a variety of benefits such as social and economic development, youth empowerment and employment as well as reconciliation and peace.

Madam Speaker, today, Zambia can boast of producing great sports personalities with notable names like Patson Daka, Enock Mwepu, Kalusha Bwalya, the late Lottie Mwale, may his soul rest in peace, Catherine Phiri and Samuel Matete, whose birthday is today. Through these personalities, Zambia has attained a global status as an active sporting country.

In addition, sports personalities have contributed to the socio-economic wellbeing of the country by undertaking initiatives such as providing grants and other humanitarian acts. For instance, Patson Daka has plans to build a hospital in his hometown, Kafue, and the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue is here to attest to that, as a gesture of giving back to the community. Therefore, if the suspension of sporting activities is sustained, the decision may in the long-term affect negatively children who have aspirations to pursue professional careers in sport.

Madam Speaker, in confirming the validity of this Motion, allow me to refer to the statement issued by the Government. On 11^th October, 2016, the Government presented a ministerial statement in the House through the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development, where commitment was made to implement the interventions aimed at the revival and strengthening of physical education and sports in schools and higher learning institutions.

Similarly, on 9^th July, 2022, the Government through the hon. Minister of Education made a commitment to reintroduce sports and physical activities as part of learning. The position given by the Government, indeed, confirms that the Government suspended sporting activities in schools and even for those who were arguing that there are sports is schools, there is the confirmation. Therefore, the Government must consider re-introducing them to promote wellness and development of children in Zambian schools.

Madam Speaker, this state has inhibited most public schools from providing adequate physical education and sporting activities for grooming the children to become successful and professional sports personalities later in life. To fully maximise the potential of sport in Zambia, the Government needs to invest in facilities, equipment and motivate teachers as well as schools to fully integrate sporting activities.

Madam Speaker, in addition, the absence of sporting activities in schools has a cascading effect on the general performance of the country at regional, continental and global sports events. These events include the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) and Basketball Africa League (BAL), just to mention a few.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to retaliate that sporting activities in schools are important to the social and economic wellbeing of society. In this regard, I urge all the hon. Members of Parliament of this august House to support this non-controversial, non-partisan and nationalistic Motion. With the aforesaid, I once again wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to move this Motion. Those who want their children to be involving themselves in bad activities will shoot it down.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Maybe, just to give some advice on the word ‘reiterate’. It is not ‘retaliate’, but ‘reiterate’.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr B. Mpundu: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you, once again, for giving the people of Nkana an opportunity to second a Motion ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central, which Motion seeks to urge the Government to reintroduce sporting activities in schools.

Madam Speaker, from the ontset, let me affirm my support for the Motion which is aiming at ensuring that both the physical and mental wellbeing of young people are promoted through sport. Just to remove doubt, as stated by the mover of the Motion, not too long ago, precisely about three weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Education, Hon. Syakalima, whilst addressing education officials in the North-Western Province, did indicate that the Government was in the process of re-introducing sporting activities in schools. Now, that is a confirmation for anybody who doubts today as to the existence of sporting activities in our schools, that these activities are not there and that the Government is only in the process of re-introducing sporting activities.

Madam Speaker, I remember as a young person when I went to school at Kawambwa Boys Secondary School, we played sports and convened as a province in one area. It was called the Buffalo Tournament, which culminated into the Coca-Cola Cup for football, which produced great sporting personalities. These things are long gone. No wonder we are having dismal performance in all national sporting activities, save for the Shepolopolo, who have done us proud in the last couple of days.

Madam Speaker, let me state here that sport addresses two things, namely promoting the physical wellbeing of a person as well as addressing social ills. Today, issues of drug abuse and sexuality among young people are on the rise. You may have heard a report that over 40,000 girls in Lusaka became Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) positive in one year. That tells you the extent of the problem because as it is said ‘an idol mind is the devil’s workshop’. Therefore, the devil is preying on the idol minds of young people owing to the non-availability of activities in the way of sports in schools.

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, sports have been an integral component of core curricular activities in most of our schools – let me not say most, but in all our schools. You will recall that in 2006, the late President, His Excellency, and may his soul rest in peace, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, emphasised the importance of sport by announcing the re-implementation of physical education. We used to call it PE then. My mind can attest to the fact that everyone who is in this House used to take part in PE. Whether you were thin like me, with bones, or you were fat or as big as Hon. Lusambo, you needed to go and take part in PE.

Mr Lusambo: Yes, yes!

Mr B. Mpundu: This is because it was a compulsory subject in all schools and teachers’ colleges that were using the Ministry of Education curriculum. This was regardless of whether the institution was private, run by the Government or owned by the community. Further, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development, in its National Sports Policy of 2005, stated that it shall endeavour to advocate for the teaching of PE, sport and recreation in all learning institutions.

Madam Speaker, sport should be a major part of the school curriculum because, like I did state, it helps a child to stay emotionally and physically healthy, thus assisting them to focus on their studies. The performance of most schools has dwindled over the years because of lack of sporting activities. Further, children need to participate in sports activities –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was trying to make a point that the growth journey of an individual is interesting and there are many virtues that we get to learn, namely leadership, patience, team efforts as well as social skills. There is nothing, other than sport, that teaches someone how to attain these virtues.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, I am trying to urge the Government to consider provision of adequate facilities for use by our children such as playing grounds for football netball, volleyball and among others. I want to further implore the Government to work closely with dedicated related sports associations that are known to be co-ordinating and promoting sporting activities so as to get financial as well as technical support.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me mention that the re-introduction of sporting activities in schools will greatly contribute to developing children’s physical well being, as well as other important skills. I, therefore, would like to put it to the hon. Members of this House that this Motion, regardless whether it is coming from your left or right, the starting point is the realisation that sports are no longer happening in schools. As indicated by the hon. Minister of Education, there must be a deliberate desire by the Government to re-introduce these sporting activities, which at some point, gave Zambia glory as indicated by the mover of the Motion. Therefore, in supporting this Motion, I equally want to urge hon. Members to support this Motion because it is non-political, non-contentious, it is only a Motion that seeks to promote the wellbeing of our children. It is also an attempt being made to try and deal with social evils and issues that have engulfed our communities.

Madam, today, dagga smoking and immoral behavior by children are on rampant. It is my considered view that these issues can be dealt with if we kept our young people busy. There is no other way we can keep our young people busy other than by committing them to sporting activities.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion.

Madam Speaker: I acknowledge the importance of the Motion that has been moved. However, because of limitations of time, I will allow two hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF), two from the United Party for National Development (UPND) and one lady to debate the Motion. Since the Motion is being moved by Independent hon. Members, I am sure they have had their bite at the cherry. So, again, I am just appealing to you hon. Members that as you debate, please you do not need to exhaust the eight minutes. In addition, avoid repetitions so that we make progress.

Thank you very much.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to debate this non-controversial Motion. It is non-controversial because sports activities in their own vast spectrum belong to a socialisation process at school. What I mean is that when we talk about enrolment and retention of children of school-going age, as well as progression, it is all punctuated with different disciplines that add value to how a human being is socialised.

Madam Speaker, having said that, I want to take note that the enrolment age in Zambia takes into consideration the age of character formation, which goes hand in hand with sporting activities. Currently, Zambia seems to be struggling and it is on the list of countries that are dealing with non-communicable diseases. I think we need to create a culture which should defeat non-communicable diseases. We can do this by choosing healthy lifestyles, and sporting activities starting from school is one such way.

Madam Speaker, when we look at the definition of health by the World Health Organisation (WHO), it says that health is not just the absence of disease, but mental, physical, emotional and many other factors. Further, going by that definition, sporting activities at school add a lot of value.

Madam, let me also underscore the fact that because of borrowing too much from outside cultures, the number of juvenile delinquencies in Zambia is rising. Therefore, sport is one activity that can work as a protective factor in defeating juvenile delinquency.

Madam Speaker, currently, Zambia is encouraging a vocational and academic route, although solid curricula have to be developed in that particular route. That being the case, when we encourage a vocational and academic route, let us give the pupils who are attending the school system the leverage to choose to become footballers, netballers or become anything. We have seen how young people who have excelled in sports are feeding their parents and living a decent life. So, let us not deprive the children of that particular opportunity, especially those of school-going age.

Madam Speaker, I also want to emphasise that going against re-introducing of sporting activities is going against life itself. Sports do not just help in terms of living a particular lifestyle that is promoted by different doctors and so on and so forth, but also help to prevent non-communicable diseases. We do not want children who have an opportunity to embrace a good lifestyle while they are still at school to come and be treated for non-communicable diseases when they are in their forties, when they could have developed a culture of dealing with non-communicable diseases.

Madam Speaker, I want to stick to your guidance, otherwise, I would have finished my eight minutes. However, in view of the limited time, I want say that the people of Chilubi are in support of the Motion urging the Government to re-introduce sporting activities in schools with no breaks because it is non-controversial and it is not a Motion that we should even seat and waste time on. I think it passed on the birthday.

I thank you and I submit.

Mr Malambo (Magoye): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for moving this very important Motion. From the outset, I want to indicate that I do not support this Motion…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malambo: …based on the fact that the word “re-introduction” means there are no sporting activities in schools. The fact of the matter is that a week ago, I went to a certain school in my constituency in Magoye, where I had to donate balls, meaning that sporting activities are present in schools. So, the only thing we would have urged the Government is to invest more so that we are able to have more teams competing like what happened in Morocco recently, where our Zambia National Women's Football Team won the third position. This means that sporting activities are present in schools and as far as we are concerned, on this side, we do not support this Motion based on the fact that it does not mean well. It is just aimed at creating an impression that the Government is not doing anything. So, this is a Motion brought to shame the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!

Mr Malambo: Madam, this Motion is not well intended. It is brought before this House to merely show somebody that he is present in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Malambo: So, as far as we are concerned–we cherish sports so much and we have invested a lot in sport.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a procedural point of order.

Madam Speaker, the processing of Motions is a procedure of Parliament and when you admit a Motion to be brought on the Floor, you would have scrutinised it and appreciated the need. Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to insinuate…

Ms Mulenga: With a big stomach.

Mr Kampyongo: …that the Motion, which is on the Floor, processed by your office, is merely to show the mover of the Motion’s presence in the House?

I seek your serious.

Ms Mulenga: Insulting the Speaker like that!

Mr Mutale: Insulting the Clerk!

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member was out of order to the extent that he said the presentation of the Motion was meant to show that some hon. Members are present and that the Motion has ill motives.

May the hon. Member continue without imputing any ill motive against the Motion. Just state the facts, hon. Member. Proceed.

Mr Malambo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate to an extent where my big man there has spoken as if I am talking about somebody. However, as far as I am concerned, I am representing Magoye Constituency and the fact of the matter is that I invested balls in my constituency to enhance sports activities. So, bringing this Motion to the House was merely to show as if there is nothing the Government is doing.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member! Just debate the Motion.

Mr Malambo: Madam Speaker, let me just indicate that this Motion has been brought before this House with ill motives.

Lastly, let me say–

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us allow the hon. Member to debate freely. We are disrupting him and he is now losing his focus. May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Malambo: Madam Speaker, let me just say this Motion is brought-in-dead, and we do not support it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to debate this Motion brought here by the hon. Member for Petauke Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. Jay E. Banda. He is actually not Jayjay.

Madam Speaker, because the Motion is on sports, allow me first, to congratulate our Zambia National Team for winning the Council of Southern Africa Football Associations (COSAFA) Cup and the Zambia National Women's Football Team for coming back with a bronze medal from the Women's Africa Cup of Nations (WAFCON). I also commend the New Dawn Government for these sports success because it must have funded the teams to go there.

To Madam Vice-President, when you win, we are with you, but when the team loses, you are on own.

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, the Motion on the Floor reminds me of our good old days when we were growing up in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government. Each of our primary schools had a football field and an athletes’ field. Every day, we had Physical Education (PE), and for some of us, it was our best subject. We could not wait for PE. Sitting always used to bore us. As a result, all schools around the country ended up producing children who were very good at running, high jump and football. We even had the Zambia Schools National Team. That is where the likes of Kalusha Bwalya, Johnson Bwalya and Keegan Mumba, to mention but a few, were produced. It is because of our early childhood’s exposure to sports facilities that some of us can play any sport where we are now despite the old age, except, there was no swimming. Somehow it was for the ba zungu schools, but in Matero, we had all sports fields and we were told to play any game.

Mr Mutelo: Who are the ba zungu?

Mr Sampa: The elite.

The Government of the day then forgot to put swimming pools in our compound schools or rural schools, but they would put a football field, a netball court and an athletes’ field. I commend the Government then.

Madam Speaker, what happened next, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) councillors came. They demarcated all the football fields in the schools and sold off the plots, and by 2010, there were no fields left at any school in the country. They were demarcated and sold off. So, there were no sports facilities. What was the ultimate result? The result is that our children in schools have nothing to do other than attend class. They go to learn English Language, Mathematics and Science, but there is nothing to excite them. What do they do? They have resorted to social media for their extra curricula activities. At break time, they go elsewhere. Others find themselves on TikTok, which we know is Western-based.

So, our kinds have nothing to keep them active. First, they become plump and have no extra activity. Where I am here, I am forced to dance with my seven-year old daughter, Michelle because TikTok tells her that we should do challenges by dancing. When I tell her that let us go and run, and play football, she says, no it is boring. Why? It is because there is nothing for our children in the schools.

Mr Nkombo interjected

Mr Sampa: Hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development!

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, as I conclude, speaking for Lusaka, where there is no more land, even if we say let us reactivate the football fields, what will they do in Matero Constituency or Kanyama were every little piece of land has been taken over? So, maybe, going forward, we should look at creating one sports facility such as a mini-stadium for primary schools and secondary schools in each constituency. For instance, a mini-stadium can be created in Mazabuka Constituency and so on and so forth, and set aside one day in a term for all the schools to compete in football, athletics and netball. Growth does not entail just being in class. Sports also help to develop. Interacting through sport is part of growth.

Madam Speaker, if we do not implement that now, then we need to start afresh. As a nation, we should look back and ask, where did we error? The stopping of PE in schools was one of the errors that were made. Governance is about continuity. There was UNIP, the MMD, the Patriotic Front (PF), and now, there is the United Party for National Development (UPND) and one day, there will be another party or it might be the PF again.

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: It is a continuation, but what remains constant in our lives is a country called Zambia. Zambia will always be here, and what we should do when we have been privileged to be in this House is to help Motions, Bills and Laws that will stand the test of time for the good of our children and grandchildren. Otherwise, if we do not go back to this Motion and implement it, we will continue to be weeping boys and girls of African football. We will always be saying sembe. Sembe referee, sembe this. No. Ultimately, other countries that are –

Madam Speaker: Sembe meaning?

Mr Sampa: Madam, had it been or had we done this. It reminds me of a football team called City of Lusaka. Every time the team loses, apparently, the players say “had it been” or “had the referee been like this”. So, we will also keep losing at football and keep blaming referees, the coach, the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) and anybody, but the foundation is not there. The countries that win World Cups and Africa Cups have vibrant curricula for sports and PE and their academies are very vibrant. You have under twelve girls and boys, under sixteen boys and girls, under eighteen and under twenty-one, which we do not have here.

Madam, as I conclude, this Motion makes a good start on our quest to become world champions not only in football, but also in boxing, netball, athletics and other sporting games. If there is one Motion that hon. Colleagues on the right should support, it is this one. It is non-controversial and non-political and it has been raised not by the PF, but by an Independent Member. All of us here need sport. Most of us weigh beyond the recommended weight and well all need these sports facilities and we need our children to be active in school. This is non-controversial. For once, let us support a Motion not on political or party grounds, but for our people out there.

So, I urge our hon. Colleagues here to support this Motion brought here by Hon. J. E. Banda of Petauke Constituency.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I was almost passing on this debate considering that everything I wanted to say has already been said. However, I will take probably just three minutes to echo what has been said.

Madam, regarding this Motion that has been brought on the Floor of the House, I am wondering how we are even being urged when we are “urged”. In Mwandi, sporting activities are still there. The only thing that deterred sporting activities in these constituencies was the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) situation that we had. Therefore, I am wondering where this Motion is coming from. Who banned sporting activities in the other constituencies for us to be urged? Who banned the –

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Ms Sefulo: – Hon. Member for Nkana, who banned the sporting activities? As we bring Motions to the House, let us check them so it does not look like we on the right are always negativating what is coming from the other side when it is not the case.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: When Motions are brought to this House, what we expect is for us to be urged on things that are not “urged” and not on things that are already going on.

Madam Speaker, the seconder was even saying the hon. Minister was heard in the Eastern Province speaking about sporting activities. So why bring the same thing that the hon. Minister spoke about and urge the already urged minister? We are having challenges because what is being brought here is what the New Dawn Government is already doing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Why should they be bringing things that are already there? They are knocking on a door that is already open. Why are they knocking? Just come in. The doors are already open. These things are already happening in our constituencies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, let me also make mention that we were given jerseys by the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts to support sporting activities in our constituencies. I met some of the hon. Members, who are standing on this Floor supporting this Motion, at the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts collecting jerseys. Where were they taking those jerseys if they did not have sporting activities in their constituencies?

Mr Tayali: They are pyjamas!

Ms Sefulo: Are they using them as pyjamas?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Ms Sefulo: As we come to this House, let us bring Motions –

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I am sorry about this point of order as you have raised important issues about us looking at time. However, some of the things that the hon. Member is telling the House bring some kind of division. She has indicated that we are collecting jerseys from the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts.

Ms Mulenga: Back door!

Mr Mutale: Madam, you preside over this House and Her Honour the Vice-President is there. Chitambo Constituency has not yet received anything. You have always reminded us to speak the truth in our debates. Can the hon. Member she lay evidence on the Table …

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mutale: … to show …

Ms Mulenga: That we got.

Mr Mutale: … that the hon. Members sitting here have gotten jerseys from any ministry in this Republic of Zambia. I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us make progress. Let us not debate ourselves. Let us concentrate on the Motion. Hon. Member for Mwandi, please just concentrate on the Motion. Do not debate your fellow hon. Members.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, I am very well guided, and since that has been ruled on, I will not comment any further. I will leave it at that, but I know what I am saying is the truth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Ms Sefulo: Hon. Members, can you allow me to debate.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, order!

Ms Sefulo: Anyway, with that said, we are not here to argue with the hon. Members on the left, but what will cause us to negativate their Motion is if they bring Motions on things that are already being done. Sporting activities are there in Mwandi. I do not know who banned the activities where the hon. Member is from. The hon. Member for Dundumwezi was just confirming that they are there. Even in Matero, we see the Member of Parliament doing sporting activities, even at home. He does them.

Madam Speaker, with that being said, this is a good Motion, but the Government is already doing exactly what it is being urged to do. That is all we are saying.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you. The last debater is the hon. Member for Kalabo Central as the chairperson of the Committee on Youth, Sports and Arts.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the mover of the Motion, Hon. J. E. Banda and the seconder, the hon. Member for Nkana.

Madam, let me remind the House that the mover could have presented a very good Motion if this re-introduction was directly connected to, one, the poor funding of schools in the last regime and two …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Miyutu: … the emergence of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). These two factors could have matched well with the Motion, but relating the reintroduction of sports to the current New Dawn Government is a mismatch.

Madam Speaker, on Friday, after tomorrow, schools are merging to compete in Mongu, Western Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Now, which has come first, is it the competitions or the re-introduction? From what is happening, to me, it is the competition which has come first. So, I do not know where to place the re-introduction.

Madam Speaker, People should praise the New Dawn Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the coming in of the New Dawn Government boosted schools finically. In that grant, all schools have the mandate to plan for sports. I would like to remind you that there are two issues here. There is sports and Physical Education (PE). So, let us not combine these two things. PE is a subject, which is taught in class and sports is a co-curricular activity supporting the PE which is taught in class.

Madam Speaker, all schools are mandated to plan for the PE and sports using grants. That is why I am saying people should praise the New Dawn Government.

Madam Speaker, secondly, all constituencies are going to receive Constituency Development Fund (CDF) amounting to K25.7 million and in that amount, there is a component to support youth activities in which sports becomes part and parcel of. Now, when somebody comes to this House and says they are urging the Government to re-introduce, this. This Motion should have stated that it is urging the Government to re-introduce sports because the number of COVID-19 cases has gone down.

Madam Speaker, this would have been a very substantive Motion, but because the mover omitted that COVID-19 aspect, which compelled the suspension of sporting activities in schools. Hon. Members, we know that it is the emergence of COVID-19 which made every sporting activity come to a standstill. Globally, games and tournaments were all rescheduled. They had to come to a standstill. What would the Government have done other than suspend sporting activities?

Madam Speaker, in short, I am not supporting this Motion because it is not working in my Constituency. It is not working in the Western Province. I know the Western Province is a province like any other province. The inter-provincial sports activities will take places in Kitwe. Kitwe is on the Copperbelt. The Copperbelt is in Zambia. These games will be under the Ministry of Education. So, this is what others call a brought-in dead (BID). It is already dead.

Madam Speaker, when a door is open, you do not knock, you just walk. The Government has brought life in schools and it is even encouraging the hon. Members to come up with these Motions.

Madam Speaker, the way the mind works sometimes, it may make the mover of the Motion think we are still in the last regime. This is the New Dawn Government.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: This is the New Dawn Government where things are going to be operationalised and actualised methodically.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, there are too many interruptions.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Nichani?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, if you engage the other hon. Members, you know what I do. I will disregard your point of order.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to misrepresent information in the House by saying that the Motion would have been linked to poor funding, especially that the evidence is all over that the past regime provided table tennis, pool tables and many other sporting activities schools?

Madam Speaker, another factor is that the hon. Member swapped the issue of Physical Education (PE).

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, mind the time! You are now debating. Please, raise the point of order.

Mr Fube: Madam, I was trying to qualify his misinformation on PE. That is my last point.

Madam Speaker: When you do that, then you are debating. What is your point of order?

Mr Fube: My point of order is that is he in order to say that PE is a theory subject as opposed to a practical subject because it appears on the timetable as a subject that is supposed to be undertaken and it is undertaken as a physical subject? It is just on those two points; the provision of sporting equipment as well as PE. I think that he is misleading the nation.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I think we are now going into semantics. We were all at school at one time, and we did Physical Education (PE). It is part of sports. That is what I can say. It is physical since you have to go out and do that activity. So, if the hon. Members said that it was theoretical, then that was not correct.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I play number two when the National Assembly football team plays. So, I cannot be rhetoric. I am a very practical man.

Madam Speaker, let me just conclude by saying this is a non-deal Motion which could not have been been dealt with because these are things which are already in progress. The provision of equipment to schools is a sign that sport is active. So, there is nothing that the Government is going to re-introduce. So, let me just give space to the hon. Minister to finish up the whole matter.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, is it a point of order you want to raise, because I have closed the list?

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I would like to debate the Motion.

Madam Speaker: I will give you two minutes.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I can acknowledge that the hon. Colleague from Kalabo is a good player. We played together in Malawi as parliamentarians. He is number two all because of the schools intensified programmes.

Madam Speaker, the gist of this Motion can either say ‘re-introduce sporting activities in schools after the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)’ or ‘enhance sports activities in schools’. However, the bottom line is that we need to reinvest in talent identification, starting from school. This is because if there is anything that brings –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we do not have the luxury of time today, please. Let us allow the hon. Member to debate and when he finishes, we proceed.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, there is no better place where you can enhance talent identification other than in schools. If you put deliberate programmes in schools – like others had pointed out, we had school boys international tournaments, this was because of the deliberate engagement. If the activities were there but the standards have gone down, then urging the Government to re-introduce or to ensure that it puts robust sports programmes in schools is not asking for too much.

Madam Speaker, yes, indeed, we have been told that the door is open, but as long as you do not live there, you still have to knock. The most important thing is that we know how sport is now changing people’s lives, how sport is changing poorly brought up children to become rich men and women. We are talking about job creation. If there is one area which is guaranteed of job creation, it is sport. This is because with sports, it does not matter how far you go in academics, you are all given chance to excel. We have heard of someone who is coming to build a hospital in Kafue District from nothing.

Madam Speaker, if we just depoliticise this Motion and look at it from an objective perspective, we will see that it is well intended. I support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, thank you. In the first place, the Government did not abolish sporting activities, but merely suspended the said activities during the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. These efforts aimed to maintain adherence to COVID-19 national, continental and global protocols by governments and to protect citizens against this disease.

Madam Speaker, in the recent recruitment exercise, 25,736 primary school teachers were recruited. All the primary school teachers are well-trained in sport. In addition, we have a fraction of the secondary school teachers just recruited whose speciality is in the sporting field to implement the sporting activities in schools countrywide.

You may recall, Madam Speaker, that around mid-March, 2020, the Zambian Government announced at a press briefing that all schools, colleges and universities would close indefinitely on Friday, March 2020 amid fears of the COVID-19 outbreak that had reportedly ravaged most parts of the world. On 18^th March, 2020, Zambia recorded its first case of COVID-19 just two days before the premature closure of schools. Schools closed prematurely in March, 2020 and education for over 4.3 million children and adolescents was disrupted, potentially regressing progress made in attaining Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No. 4. This affected the attainment of high quality primary and secondary education. Children’s routine was also not the same, resulting in unprecedented stress among many.

The most vulnerable, including those living with disabilities, orphans and vulnerable children (OVCs) and rural children were most affected by the effects of COVID-19 because they faced additional vulnerabilities as access to education was entirely in jeopardy during this period when gatherings and school access was limited. In summary, in the past twenty-four months, Zambia has experienced four waves of escalated COVID-19 cases, increased hospitalisation and high number of deaths. The first wave surged around July, 2020, the second, December, 2020 to May 2021, and the third began around mid-May to early September in 2021 with the virus spreading to all the districts. Lastly, the fourth wave surged around mid-December 2021.

During these challenging times, the Government suspended sporting activities in schools as part of the full implementation of the COVID-19 national multi-sectoral preparedness and response plan to avert a humanitarian crisis in the country given that the occurrence of COVID-19 exacerbates vulnerabilities. The ban on gatherings implied no learner and teacher sporting related activities in schools. As a result, all co-curricular and subject association activities were put on hold.

Madam, Zambia started easing domestic COVID-19 restrictions when the disease slowed down to manageable levels. At the time, the Government issued Circular No. MOE4/15/119 dated 12^th April, 2022 addressed to all the provinces and instructed them to resume the co-curricular and subject association activities. In addition, Minute No. MOE17/11/3 dated 14^th July, 2022 guided the Zambian schools sports association, among others, in managing the co-curricular activities amid the COVID-19 pandemic. However, masking remains in force and must be adhered to at all times.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Education, in consultation with key stakeholders, developed a calendar for co-curricular and subject association activities to run from as far back as April this year, 2022. You may wish to note that specialised school related associations that include Social Sciences Teachers Association of Zambia (SOSTAS), Expressive Arts Teachers Association of Zambia (EATAZ), Business Studies Teachers Association of Zambia (BUSTAS) and the Zambia Secondary Schools Association (ZASSA) co-ordinated activities being referred above. Currently, we shall have a programme running from as far back as 25^th April to go up to 19^th August, 2022 covering diverse co-curricular activities countrywide, and sporting activities are no exception.

Madam Speaker, the curriculum has provided for facilities should include adequate playing grounds for the learners. These are indoor and outdoor designated spaces for football, netball, volleyball and other play and sporting activities. Sporting and play activities are necessary for learners’ physical health and fitness. There should be space for production work, where learners will be involved in acquiring practical skills which we have provided. In this regard, sporting activities cannot be separated from the education system. As outlined in the curriculum and education policy, we have emphasised life skills as abilities that promote positive behaviour that enable individuals to deal effectively with the demands and challenges of everyday life with emphasis on vocational skills, practical health related skills, expressive skills, for example, sports, music and art and psycho-social life skills.

Madam Speaker, in view of this, all learners will be expected to be involved in activities which are part of the school curriculum, which include but are not limited to clubs, sports, and preventive maintenance and production units. The Government will continue to implement co-curricular activities in our schools countywide using various means, including the alternative mode of education provision to ensure that our aspirations enshrined in the curriculum and education policy are attained. I wish to reiterate that the private sector and all stakeholders’ participation will remain vital and relevant to the implementation of programmes in this area, and hon. Members of Parliament are not an exception.

Madam Speaker, allow me to state that the circulars which I talked about are for this year from way back in April. There was another circular in July. What you heard me talk about was to reemphasis because the President was on television to emphasise the need for sporting in schools. So, I was just echoing the President’s remarks in the recent past. All the circulars are in schools. So, there is nothing to “urge us” because we are already doing it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Maybe, if you dared to probably find out just before you brought the Motion, it would be better. It is also better to say “what about this?” especially those of you who heard me. I could have provided this information to yourselves. So, as hon. Colleagues said, we run an open door policy; we are able to show you circulars that we have done this. Where we have not done, we can tell you to “go and urge us” or “come and urge us.” That is the way life can be easy. If you came, I would not say that do not urge me, okay. I would say come and urge us so that we are on the spot. That is what we do, but as of now, when we see that we are already doing that, we explain to yourselves. In the other life which I had, each time that an hon. Minister would stand up like the way I am eloquently exuding my knowledge here, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: ... we, as Backbenchers, would bring a Private Member’s Motion and say that well, we did not know. So, I would withdraw it before it was put by the Speaker.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good of Petauke Constituency this opportunity to wind up debate. I thank all the hon. Members who have debated this non-controversial Motion. However, the people out there, especially in Magoye Constituency and Mwandi Constituency are very disappointed with the people who represent them because –

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Constituency, please, do not debate other hon. Members, just wind up your debate.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance, it is well noted. The good people of Magoye are very disappointed that they have never seen their hon. Member of Parliament talking on the Floor of this House –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke, you have been guided please, wind up debate. We do not have much time. So, wind up debate in one minute.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, well noted and thank you for your guidance. I want to thank the hon. Minister for acknowledging that he will re-introduce sports activities –

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. J. Banda: That is what I understood. Maybe, we understand English differently, but according to me, that is what I understood.

Madam Speaker, there are no sports activities at the schools in Petauke –

Madam Speaker: Order!

In view of what you have said hon. Member for Petauke, now there is a point of order.

Mr Syakalima: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, if you check the all Hansards from the time that I became a Member of Parliament, a long time ago, you will note that I have never stood on a point of order.

Mr Lusambo: Question!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, but on this particular one, I thought I should ask whether or not the hon. Member is in order to misrepresent me. When I was exuding knowledge here everybody was doing this (raising his thumb)

Mr Tayali: Including Bowman.

Mr Syakalima Including that one (pointing at Hon. Lusambo).

Madam Speaker, it is very important for him not to send a wrong message out there. I was reading here and what I explained is that those things are already there. So, let him not put his words because all I begged him was that, what we used to do was when the hon. Minister explains like this, you tell the Speaker not to put the question, I am withdrawing. So, if the hon. Member wants me to repeat, in case he was not listening, the point of order is that: is he in order to say the words that he has said that I agreed with him to re-introduce when things are already there? How do we re-introduce something which is already there? Is he in order?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Petauke, is out of order for saying that the sports activities are going to be re-introduced because that was not stated. Hon. Member for Petauke, please, wind up debate.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I represent the good people of Petauke, and in Petauke, we have recorded a high number of teenage pregnancies. This is because there are no sports activities in schools and maybe, I can invite the hon. Minister of Education to come to the constituency and see for himself.

Madam Speaker, maybe, it is the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) who is not doing his job of making sure that there are sports activities in schools. I stand to be corrected by him if that is not the case.  As far as we are concerned, in Petauke, there are not sports activities in schools. What I am saying is factual. I can even lay evidence on the Table to show that there are no sports activities in Petauke. However, all in all, I thank everyone who debated and I say thank you to the hon. Minister and also invite him to visit us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I think we will also introduce sports here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Question that, this House urges the Government to re-introduce sporting activities in schools put and the House voted.

Ayes – (42)

Noes – (65)

Abstentions – (Nil)

Question that this House urges the Government to re-introduce sporting activities in schools put and negatived.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 1 OF 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Supply to consider Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2022. I am bearer of a message from His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia recommending favourable consideration of the Motion I now lay on the Table.

Dr Musokotwane laid the document on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Article 203 of the Constitution, the hon. Minister responsible for finance shall, where the amount appropriated in an Appropriation Act is insufficient to meet expenditure in that financial year, lay before the National Assembly for approval, a supplementary estimate of expenditure.

Madam, by virtue of the authority conveyed in the article of the Constitution quoted above, I now present the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2022. The total Supplementary Budget stands at K22.36 billion. Allow me to bring out the notable proposed expenditure allocations contained in these Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure.

Madam Speaker, out of the recommended K22.36 billion, K9.7 billion is required to cater for dismantling of arrears, of which K3 billion is meant to pay various contractors and suppliers of goods and services. K2 billion has been set aside to attend to various emergency works as such as potential impassable roads in the road sector. K1.8 billion has been set aside as debt swap.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) has so far disbursed K2.1 billion of the 2022 budget allocation. This has helped to clear 2,232 outstanding cases resulting in the reduction of average waiting period from three years to less than one year. Further, K1.2 billion has been allocated for PSPF and Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) to pay retirees who have served the country in various capacities.

Madam Speaker, other notable allocations include K1 billion meant to pay for fuel arrears while K361 million is required to unlock the water projects from co-operating partners under the Millennium Challenge. The Government has also allocated K612 million required as redundancy packages for retrenched Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited workers. In addition, K4.7 billion of the total supplementary budget has been set aside to implement the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) using 100 per cent Direct Input Supply Modality (DISM) under the Ministry of Agriculture. In order to enhance and strengthen the tax system, K751 million has been allocated under my ministry for the modernisation of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA).

Madam Speaker, to accommodate these supplementary estimates, approximately K19. 7 billion will be declared a savings from unspent provisions in the 2022 Budget. These are coming from external debt service under Head 99. K640.3 million is from co-operating partners and K928.2 million are carry over funds from the 2021 financial year, while K1.4 billion is additional revenue in the form of dividends.

Madam Speaker, with that I beg to move.

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I support Hon. Dr. Musokotwane’s proposal to expand the expenditure for Government. By way of supporting your proposal, I want to remind you that it is you who brought the Budget to this House, which we actually appropriated. We approved it and it was successfully appropriated. It is you, Dr Musokotwane, again who has come back asking this House to approve the expansion of the Budget. When we stood to support you last time, we told you that these numbers you are bringing are little and that you needed to provide for more. I will give you examples. By the time you came with that Budget, you had already been in power for a few months. We saw from the trend that our current President, His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema was a fan of travelling. Therefore, we urged you to increase the amount. Look at what you have done at Cabinet Office. You have expanded those budget lines from K5 million to K193 million. That is over 3000 per cent increase, all because of eighteen foreign trips in ten months. We knew that and we advised. So, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, through you Madam Speaker–

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Member!

Hon. Dr Musokotwane has not come here in his personal capacity. He has come here as a Minister of Finance and National Planning. So, address him as such, and speak through the Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Absolutely! Hon. Musokotwane, through the Speaker, I would like to remind you that it is important that we, who were here before a number of people on your right are listened to. It is very critical because when we advise, we are doing so in good faith. At Cabinet Office, where you are increasing that amount from K5 million to K193 million, which as I said is more than 3000 per cent, from having one Permanent Secretary (PS) for Special Duties, we now have four. Now, that alone should have indicated that you needed more money.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my second line is the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) where the hon. Minister is proposing to increase expenditure by over 1500 percent from K7.4 million to K115.6 million.

Madam Speaker, the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) has slowed down in this country. What emergency are you anticipating in the next three months? Have you already spent this money or you intend to spend it, and on what emergencies? Hon. Member of Parliament are now meeting in the Chamber basically because COVID-19 has moderated. So, I am very surprised at the poor projection in terms of the original Budget and the Supplementary Budget which has come through this House.

Madam Speaker, my third observation is on the Zambia Police Service. Hon. Dr Musokotwane, it is here again. Through Madam Speaker, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, it is here again–

Madam Chairperson: Order, hon. Member for Lunte!

Please refer to the hon. Minister using his portfolio, and not his name, as guided. Proceed.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: ...I have a lot of love for you, I have to indicate. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, it is unfortunate that you are going to provide more money for the Zambia Police to do activities which sometimes can be seen as totally unnecessary where you transport a person from here to Solwezi or Lukulu, blocking a citizen from entering the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) offices and you have many police officers and you do not even know what they are doing. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, this is a waste of resources. For me, I actually think 90 per cent or thereabout of this money is already spent. This is why I am obliged to support. Otherwise, we would be sabotaging a Government system which is very poor at projecting, but very good at using such words as meticulous, methodical and things like that.

Madam Speaker, if I looked at these projections and I was sitting in your position, I would urge my colleagues to moderate the use of such words as meticulous and methodical because this does not show any form of meticulousness. It does not show that the Government has a capacity to make realistic projections. What it shows is that the Government is full of people who project poverty.

Madam Speaker, let me now come to my fourth line, the Civil Service Commission (CSC), where the Government intends to increase expenditure by 288 per cent. Hon. Dr Musokotwane, what is happening there?

Interruptions

Mr Lusambo: It is the same thing.

Mr Kafwaya: Maybe, percentages are a problem. The line is from K10 million to K29 million that is 288 per cent. So, it is properly calculated. Hon. Dr Musokotwane, what is happening at the Civil Service Commission?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, you have been guided.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, as guided, through you, to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, what is happening at the Civil Service Commission is that they are just transferring senior servants from one ministry to the other. When that senior civil servant reports at the designated ministry he/she is refused. Then he/she will go to Cabinet Office to go and sit and start waiting for redeployment. So, I think that these are just expenditures to waste tax payers money.

Madam, the other things is that taxation has been reduced for mining companies, which means that the hon. Minister has taxed Zambians much more –

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order premised on Standing Order 65 (b).

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte, not too long ago, was in Cabinet. However, in 2021, we saw the Supplementary Budget under the then Cabinet, which were worse off in terms of provisions than this one is. I will give an example of an allocation under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I remember very well that it was high by almost 500 per cent. Then, the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu was the Minister of Home Affairs–

Madam Speaker: What is the point order, hon. Member?

Mr Chaatila: Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte who, not too long ago, was in the Executive, which was very extravagant than what Hon. Dr Musokotwane, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has brought, in order to realise today or bring about these same issues which in fact are now moderate compared to the wasteful expenditure that we saw under his watch?

Madam Speaker, on a lighter note, why is he annoyed? Why is he frustrated?

I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte was almost winding up and that was his point of view. So, the other side will also give its own point of view in response to the points the hon. Member is advancing.

May the hon. Member for Lunte continue.

Mr Kafwaya removed his facemask.

Hon. Government Members: Mask up!

Mr Kafwaya: I want to show my hon. Colleague that I am not annoyed, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lusambo: Smile!

Mr Kafwaya: I support Hon. Dr. Musokotwane’s, ...

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kafwaya: ...proposal with love from the people of Lunte.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the Supplementary Budget he has just proposed to the House. Those of us who were in this House when the hon. Minister presented the 2022 Budget will recall that he actually indicated that subject to how prudent resources would be managed, there would be a possibility of a Supplementary Budget somewhere around this time. So, how meticulous and predictive can one be if you were able to foresee what is happening today?

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated in the breakdown of the 22 billion Supplementary Budget that a staggering K9 billion is for arrears, incurred by who and on what?

Hon. Government Member: Masholi!

Mr Anakoka: Madam, if there was proper budgeting and utilisation of public resources, we would not be looking for K9 billion to pay arrears for the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) equipment that was acquired at inflated prices and arrears for road contracts that were procured at exorbitant prices and for construction of universities that are non extent. We are in this situation because of the recklessness of the previous regime.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, it is gratifying to note that K2 billion –

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised by the hon. Member for Chama South. Hon. Member for Kawambwa, I did not recognise you. I will instead call upon the hon. Member for Chama South.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order pursuant to Article 65. The information shared in this respectable House should not only be factual but also verifiable. Is the hon. Member for Luena, who is my good friend because we have the same education background, in order to speculate on the Floor of the House that the arrears are due to over-inflated procurement and project sums?

Hon. Government Member: You do not know!

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, we are very much interested as hon. Members of Parliament to see which projects and procurement sums were inflated and by how much.

Ms Mulenga: And why pay for things that are inflated.

Mr Mung’andu: Why is the Government paying for projects which were inflated and over-priced? Is hon. Member in order to insinuate that project sums were over-inflated without bringing evidence to the Floor of the House so that we can also take part in condemning such acts?

I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we debate, let us make sure that we remain factual and produce facts that can be verifiable. Hon. Member for Luena, if there is no evidence which you can lay on the Table supporting what you are saying, then please withdraw, and concentrate on the debate.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, it is all there in the Auditor-General’s Report. However, for the sake of progress, we will withdraw it for now.

Madam Speaker, the Supplementary Budget presented is focusing on core areas of the running of Government. I note that the National Assembly has not been forgotten in order to strengthen the fact that this is the House that provides an oversight role on the running of Government.

The Civil Service Commission is also being catered for and I am even more excited to see that it is under governance and standards because issues of governance had gone north in the last regime. Therefore, capacitating the Civil Service under governance and standard is, indeed, a welcome move.

Madam, I am even more excited to see that the Office of the Auditor-General that has been so arm-strung in the past has been remembered in this Supplementary Budget because there is a lot of accountability that needs to be exercised and the Office of the Auditor-General plays a crucial role in that aspect.

Madam, taking an example of parastatals, in the last financial year, the office of the Auditor-General was only able to audit twenty-two of the over fifty parastatals that exist in this country. We know that parastatals were used as cash cows in the past regime. Therefore, it is important that the Auditor-General is capacitated to go through the financial statements of those institutions in order to ensure that not a ngwee that belongs to the people remains in somebody else’s pocket.

Madam, the Teaching Service Commission has struggled with a number of issues, including delayed confirmations, delayed redeployments in case of transfers and sometimes even lost files. Therefore, we are happy that the Teaching Service Commission is getting a shot in the arm as well.

Madam Speaker, I am particularly excited that the Crime Detection and Investigation Service of the Police Service has been remembered in this Supplementary Budget. On issues of fighting crime in our country, not too long ago, some hon. Colleagues here were rising on points of order or matters of urgent public interest in order to talk about how the police are sometimes slow in responding to some of the crimes reported in their areas. Therefore, this is a timely intervention to ensure that the police are not only mobile in terms of logistics and transport, but also have the capacity to deal with and attend to crime scenes.

Madam, I also wish to identify the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock under disease control which, speaking for the people of Luena, is very important to us. We have had outbreaks of diseases, and that affects the very core of the livelihoods of our people. Therefore, an increase in the Budget allocation under disease control is most welcome. I take this opportunity to request that hopefully, from this Supplementary Budget, Luena Constituency, under the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock, will receive the vehicle that was requested for a long time ago and the offices for the district.

Madam Speaker, I wish to conclude by recognising the K650 million that is provided for under loans and investments. I would assume this is going into one of the state entities. The issue of money being made available to state-owned enterprises and ensuring that it is not used on luxuries as the President emphasised a few days ago is key. One just hopes that this money will be followed through to ensure that the desired returns are actually realised.

Madam, with these few words, the people of Luena would like to say they support this proposal of a Supplementary Budget in order to address key Government challenges. They also wish to conclude by saying that if it was not for prudent management and the confidence that the international community is already having in this New Dawn Government, there would not be this economic rebound that is already visible and there would not be this support from the international community that is already visible. So, we would like to support the proposed Supplementary Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, there are requests for more hon. Members to debate. We would like to hear as many hon. Members as possible, but it depends on how much we are going to say and what we are going to say. Let us avoid being repetitive so that we do not have to use the whole eight minutes. That way, we will enable other hon. Members to have an opportunity to debate.

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. I would like to say, from the onset, through you, to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, that I support this Supplementary Budget. In supporting the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I would also like to comment that if it is true that some of these supplements are coming out of fiscal discipline, then it is commendable that that is already happening.

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning as he brings these Supplements, if truly these are extra resources, in the previous Budget; the 2022 Budget, there was K30 million allocated for the distribution of sanitary towels in primary and secondary schools. Has this money been spent, because in my constituency, we have not heard of a school that has received these resources? Therefore, as a matter of concern, if we now have extra money from savings, it is only right that we should have spent this money that was budgeted for.

Madam Speaker, dismantling of domestic debt is one of the Heads in the Supplementary Budget, and I support that. The liquidity in the economy for contractors that the Government owes is visible and we can see that there are many companies that are affected. In supporting the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I would like to urge the Government to quickly conclude its audit and establish whether this contractor was Patriotic Front (PF) or whatever political affiliation they may have had. This is because before people have political affiliations, they are Zambian, and so, it is only right that those who did the work and are owed money must be paid by the Government without making them feel that they were politically aligned.

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for budgeting for the Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited workers. Indeed, Indeni has been a thorn in the flesh for quite some time and allocating money for redundancy packages could only be commended.

However, when it comes to increased budgetary allocation to the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), I am concerned, as a matter of fact, that there seems to be a lack of a clear blueprint on the policy on agriculture with the New Dawn Government. I say so because FISP was hyped up by the late Hon. Mundia Sikatana in the New Deal Government then as a stopgap measure to end the recurring food shortages then. Therefore, farmers then, were at Grade 1 and should have graduated by now. However, as I debate here in the House, farmers are still at Grade 1 and have not graduated.

Madam Speaker, therefore, FISP has in the recent past, and in the New Dawn Government, is still not measurable. There seems to be no measure of the results of FISP. Therefore, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to strongly relook at what should be the agriculture trajectory on FISP. Does increasing bags of fertiliser make a measurable change or should we now discuss another agenda other than the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) fixing of prices and the opening up of borders so that the market price can be competitive?

In conclusion, Madam, I would also like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for being honest in the sense that he has disclosed that there is some funding that is not coming from savings but from well-wishers. That shows goodwill. Further, the passing of the Loans and Guarantees Act to allow Parliament to approve expenditure is, indeed, a game changer.

With these few words, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments on the proposals made by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in his Supplementary Estimates.

Madam, we agree that the Appropriation Bill provides for Supplementary Expenditure and that is why it is important that when we are making suggestions from our end, our hon. Colleagues on the right should appreciate that we mean well.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1840 hours until 1901 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was just acknowledging that yes, indeed, Supplementary Expenditure is provided for under the Appropriation Bill. However, in supporting the Estimates provided by the hon. Minister, we have to register a few concerns.

Madam Speaker, take the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, for example; not too long ago, we heard it announce that it had contracted five private audit firms to do some verification kind of audit. The contracting of those firms will require some significant amounts of money to be paid. When you go to the proposed expenditure lines under the ministry, I think the closest to those activities is specialised audits, where we have an allocated sum of K1,015,000, which has gone up by a supplementary amount of only K 1,580,825.

Madam Speaker, we would like the hon. Minister to share with us where the payment for these specialised audit firms that have been hired is going to come from. We had expected that to reflect here in the Supplementary Budget for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, the same goes for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). The hon. Minister is proposing a supplementary sum of K4,700,000,000 against the allocated sum of  K5,372,670,459.

Madam Speaker, again, we would like to know the justification. Are we going to have more farmers coming on board or this is just to cater for the cost of fertiliser which has escalated? So, I would love the hon. Minister to share with us on some of these provisions.

Madam Speaker, we take note that fighting corruption is very important. The hon. Minister came here with a proposed amount for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) of K 179,950. However, again, we have seen him propose to spend about K1,200,000.

Madam Speaker, we would like to know, again, if this is the same issue that my hon. Colleague raised here. What has informed these figures? Is he going to make these institutions function when we give them these amounts?

Madam Speaker, the most interesting one is the Supplementary Expenditure the hon. Minister is proposing under the Ministry of Energy, where the budgeted allocation was, for example, K50,000. What we are seeing in the supplementary proposal is K612,000,000 from K50,000. What kind of justification is there? The supplementary is more by, I do not know in percentage terms. I would like to hear whether this will help cushion the price of fuel which has escalated or it is just an expenditure that we will approve here without knowing where it is going to be spent.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, these are pertinent questions. We are not here to rubber stamp. I am sorry for using that word; it is unparliamentary. However, we want to be informed when high figures are being proposed. We must know. What has necessitated this requirement for a jump in terms of figures?

Madam Speaker, I have also seen, again, like I said, the firms hired to do special audits, which, ideally, could have been done by the Auditor-General’s office. The Auditor-General has the capacity. We had an argument here that there is a full Loans and Investment Directorate under the Auditor-General’s office which is capable of undertaking any kind of audit.

Madam Speaker, I have seen allocations of some Supplementary Expenditure to audit works which are supposed to be undertaken by our official auditors of the Government who would tender their reports in this August House. Where is the money going to come from to pay those contracted audit firms? The amounts that will be required are not minimal figures; they will be significant. So, like I have said, the closest we could have seen catering for that expenditure should have been Specialised Audits or Investment and Debt Management where he has only allocated K1,604,625.

Madam Speaker, with these concerns, we shall only be able to support this vote if the hon. Minister sheds a bit of light on these concerns that I have raised and these amounts that have been allocated to these expenditure lines that have jumped so drastically in under twelve months.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I will be reluctantly waiting for the hon. Minister to justify and then we can see whether we can support or not.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We are not doing so well with time. So, I will call upon the last hon. Member to debate.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for complying with the regulations in terms of seeking authority from Parliament to proceed with the Supplementary Budget.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that there are three types of budgets. There is a Balanced Budget, which we were given last year at the time when we were approving the 2022 Budget. We were told it was a Balanced Budget. I am also aware that we have what is called a Surplus Budget, where you have more money and you need to quickly scope items that need to be used for that money. I am also aware that we have what is called a Deficit Budget.

Madam Speaker, I have given this scenario to begin my debate and I will try and speak very quickly.

Madam Speaker, last year, when we raised issues on what was called a ‘Balanced Budget’, I think we raised one fundamental issue, which was the importance of national planning. I am aware that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has the budgeting component and the planning component. One of the things I raised last year, which I will raise again, is the importance of national development planning.

Madam Speaker, we saw differences in figures, and I will give a few examples which have already been referred to. The Civil Service Commission, last year, was allocated K700,000; Activity 2004 – Standards, Guidelines and Regulations. Today, we are being told that money has been found and we are ready to spend K3.4 million. This, and many other examples that have already been picked, confirms the fact that we need to do better in terms of projections.

Madam Speaker, I am not saying this because I am not supporting the estimates. I, personally, feel that these estimates need to be supported, but they also need to be scrutinised. I think that the funds that the hon. Minister has requested us to approve today will eventually go into different Government departments; some for service delivery and others will go towards administrative expenses. So, we really have no problem supporting things that are meant to benefit our people. However, I think from last year, to where we stand today, we have noticed very serious jumps in figures.

Madam Speaker, I will give another example. Under Gender Mainstreaming, last year, we were told to approve K400,000 and we did. Today, we have been told that we need K16,599.014 for Gender Mainstreaming. We have no problem with giving programmes for Gender Mainstreaming K16 million. However, the jump is too big from what the hon. Minister told us last year to what we need to approve today. The difference is too big.

Madam Speaker, I will give another example. Under Mineral Processing and Research, on page 5 of the Estimates that have been brought today, we had approved only K90,000 last year. Today, he has told us we should give him K5 million. Again, the jump is too significant. So, what we are asking ourselves is: We have no problem approving these figures, but what has happened in terms of programmes? Do we suddenly have more programmes that the Government needs to do? Is it possible that if we had a ministry of national development planning separate from the ministry of finance, perhaps it would have done the cleaning up of figures in terms of priorities and the role of the ministry of finance would have been to just focus on the numbers?

Madam Speaker, we are not being malicious. We believe we need to help the hon. Minister to do a better job even as we come next year for the 2023 National Budget because, ultimately, the figures that we approve are monies for the people of Zambia. I think that it is important that when he does his estimates, he gives us accurate figures.

Madam Speaker, on page 7, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning initially allocated K1 million for Missions Abroad Mortgage Financing. Today, the hon. Minister tells us he needs K150,513,249. The jump, again, is extremely high. He will do best to justify why there is this jump. I know the hon. Minister is at liberty to ignore these submissions, but they are very important. I hope that he will be able to respond to these specific issues that we are raising.

Madam Speaker, on page 11, under Local Government Administration, K150 million was allocated from the initial K144,000. Again, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, has not explained what he is going to use the K150 million for.

On page 13, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry has requested for money for Trade Facilitation and Trade Promotion. Again, as a reasonable hon. Member of Parliament, I support these programmes, but then the jump is too big. Initially, it was said the ministry needed only K30,000 to do Trade Facilitation, but today, we are being told it needs K1,800,985.

Madam Speaker, our curiosity, for the benefit of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, has everything to do with the estimates. As he did his estimates, he appeared to have been far from what he thought would have achieved the objectives of some of the programmes that he wants to implement today. So, we do hope that even as he prepares his next Budget, the variations for supplementary funding will be minimal.

Madam Speaker, on page 14, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has adjusted the money for the Public-Private Partnership Unit. The question I am asking myself is: What has it achieved in the past and what does it intend to achieve on behalf of the Government even as we allocate these resources in the new Budget?

Lastly, Madam Speaker, on page 16, the hon. Minister of Finance end National Planning has allocated money for Internal Audit under Local Authorities. All the monies for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) will be going into the local authorities and he has allocated K700,000 towards auditing. I think there will be a need for more resources in this particular section so that when time comes for auditing, a better job is done.

Madam Speaker, I support the estimates with those particular concerns. I do hope that the funds that have been identified for the purposes of this Supplementary Budget will be channelled towards the list of items that the hon. Minister has suggested.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We still have further requests for debate. So, what I will do, in order to be fair, is that I will allow the following three hon. Members to debate only for three minutes; the hon. Member for Kankoyo, the hon. Member for Kawambwa, and the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa. They will debate in that order. Can you, please, time three minutes now.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): As per my request, Madam Speaker, allow me to speak without a mask.

Mr Mabeta removed his mask.

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand here to thank the hon. Minister of Education for having answered many –

Interruptions

Mr Mabeta: I mean the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I am sorry.

I thank the hon. Minister for having answered many unanswered questions as he has allocated more resources towards the recruitments and replacements which were made in the recent past, but were not allocated monies in the previous Budget. For me, this is a step in the right direction as we still have over a thousand teachers out here who were recruited in 2020 and 2021, but did not get on the payroll. So, I recommend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning ...

Hon. Members: Commend!

Mr Mabeta: Oh! Commend

Laughter

Mr Mabeta: I want to commend him for having thought about those people who were recruited by the previous Government, but were not put on the payroll. This Budget will answer their cry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your indulgence. I just want to tell the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning: “Welcome to the club”. These are the realities of governance. What is happening is not the end.

Madam Speaker, I also want to say to Her Honour the Vice-President that when she brings an intent like this, hon. Members on the other side must appeal to us. They should not come shooting like one of the previous debaters did. They should not come shooting at us. We are all in it together when it comes to the National Budget. So, they should not come here and start saying all sorts of things and jumping all over the place. It will not work because then we shall become antagonistic and we shall fight.

Madam Speaker, we agree that this is the submission by our hon. Colleagues on the other side (right side). We note that the Budget they preached about when they presented it to us last year, to say it was the best in the world, and that it would solve all the problems, is actually not as they described it. We knew that from the word go, but we understand because they are learning things. They are in the learning curve.

Madam Speaker, indeed, it is right that we support this budget line. My hon. Colleagues have done a lot of tabulations to see what things must be done and those that must not be done. What I now think is that by the time we get to December, we should not all be shocked but be ready to see the Budget that we were given go over K200 billion because at the end of the year, there will still be another Supplementary Budget. That, we can tell. I do not have to be a Prophet to do that.

Madam Speaker, the growing deficit, according to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, as per his statement of 9^th July, 2022, from 6.2 per cent to about 9 per cent, must have also attributed to this situation. This is not a question of this Government having raised money. No! There is no money that has been raised. We must now find the money. It is just because competing needs are mounting.

Madam Speaker, there is one important issue I want to talk about. Our President continues commuting from Community House to State House every day. That is costly. What advise do our hon. Colleagues give the President? It is imperative that they tell their President: “Cut this cost. This is a luxury. We cannot afford having you stay so many kilometres away from State House because it is a cost.”  This is part of these things we are seeing in this House. So, the hon. Colleagues on the right must be brave and tell His Excellency our President that time has now come for him to move into State House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to just comment on a few issues. First and foremost, let me thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for promising to come to the aid of Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited workers. I have been talking to him, and I heard in his speech that that will be taken cares of. Therefore, we are very grateful as the people of Bwana Mkubwa.

Madam Speaker, let me also comment on the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General which is very important. This is a very important office to us and this allocation entails that the ministry recognises the efforts and services rendered by the Office of the Auditor-General.

However, Madam Speaker, the allocation to the internal audit function still needs to be looked at. As the House may be aware, internal audit is the first line of defence and it is important that we keep pushing this department to ensure that it prevents people from misapplying public resources, and also ensure that people are accountable.

Madam Speaker, let me also commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the allocation to the Ministry of Agriculture. As we speak, I think it is important to look at the issue of the Farmer Input Support Program (FISP). We also need to look at our small-scale farmers, who need these interventions to ensure that they benefit to that effect. It is not only that. We know that the small-scale farmers can also contribute to the food security of this country. So, this is one key ministry that needs to be adequately supported through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, let me also comment on the issue of mortgage financing. I know that the issues to do with missions abroad have been talked about. I think it is important that we restore the image of our country in terms of infrastructure.  If you move around and see the state of some of the structures the world over, where we have missions, you will agree that they are a sorry sight. Our permanent mission in New York cannot even invite other ambassadors to go there because the building is literally shaking. So, it is important that the image of the country is looked at through these interventions to ensure that we have a better picture of our country in the missions.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I want to thank all the hon. Members who have debated.  Perhaps, I need to clarify one thing. There have been questions like: “Where is the money coming from? Are you going to find money for this?” In my statement, I made it very clear that almost 90 per cent of the money that we are talking about was budgeted for to service external debt. Those who are saying that the President travels too much, this and that, must realise that it is through those diplomatic effects of the President; going to the World Bank, ...

Mr Kapyanga: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: ... International Monetary Fund (IMF), European Union (EU), and speaking to the Chinese, that have made it possible for that money which was meant for debt servicing not to be spent on debt servicing, but instead, to be spent on items that the hon. Members may find in the Supplementary Budget.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, again, it is through the diplomatic efforts of the President that some of the money that was not anticipated to come from the donors has now come through.

Mr Tayali: They have confidence.

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, confidence! That money has come through and it is the one we are talking about. I assure my hon. Colleagues that the sources of this money are sound. This money has come about because of the various initiatives that this Government has put in place for our benefit as the country. I do not think anyone would say that it is not good for us to pay arrears. It is good for us to pay arrears because some of the hon. Members, our friends, relatives, country men and women, are owed arrears and they need to be paid.

Madam Speaker, now, to quickly answer some of the questions – I cannot answer all the questions because obviously, the time is not there. There were questions like: “Why are you giving money to the Public–Private Partnership (PPP)?  What has it delivered?” I assure the hon. Members that the PPP unit is going to deliver.  Very soon, we shall be hearing that some roads which were meant to gobble up significant amounts of money from the Treasury, will now be done through the PPP initiave.

Mr Tayali: Like the Lusaka-Ndola Road!

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, like the Lusaka-Ndola Road. Instead of the K1.2 billion coming from the Treasury, it will come from the private sector. There was an issue of: “Why did we go along the route of engaging private auditors instead of the Auditor-General to audit arrears?” The reason is that, if we were to go along the route of the Auditor-General, it would have taken time. People are owed money in arrears, and they want to be paid quickly. Therefore, it made sense to have a number of private sector auditors to audit, but that does not stop the Auditor-General – At the end of all that, the Auditor-General will still have to go through and audit. However, for the sake of making sure that those who are owed money are paid quickly, it became necessary to go along the route that I have just described.

Madam Speaker –

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: I cannot hear you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I do not expect that, especially from the leaders.

Mr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think these were the key issues that were raised. I want to thank the ordinary members, sorry, the hon. Members –

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: I think we are all ordinary members. So, I want to thank them for all the issues that they have raised. I can assure them that this is all good for our Republic.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 1 OF 2022

Votes 02, 03, 06 and 07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K193,599,014)

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, I draw the attention of the hon. Minister to Programme 3418, Unit 01, Sub-programme 09 – Public Affairs and Summit Meetings – K175,000,000. The initial budget allocation was K3,131,465 and the proposed supplementary amount stands at K175 million. Could the hon. Minister justify why there is this significant increment on this budget line.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kampyongo will recall that a few minutes ago, I said that due to the extraordinary efforts of the President’s diplomatic efforts of travelling to the European Union (EU), the United States (US), the United Kingdom UK), Africa Union (AU) countries and all these places, K19 billion has been saved from the country’s debt servicing. As a result of that saving, we are now able to pay our arrears to our contractors and suppliers. We are able to put more money into agriculture. It should be noted that fertiliser prices have gone up astronomically, but we have maintained the number of farmers who are beneficiaries. We have maintained the quantities those farmers are going to get. So, if we compare K175 million with K19 billion that we have managed to save, I believe that this is an expenditure that is worth it.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K2,800,000)

Mr Emmanuel Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5599, Unit 01, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources and Administration – K2,800,000. What is this money meant for? Is this the money the New Dawn Government talked about paying the 30,000 newly recruited teachers?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, no, this is not the money for the teachers who have been recruited. It has always been there. This money will be used to buy four motor vehicles for the Teaching Service Commission (TSC). As you can imagine, recruiting 30,000 teachers means that the commission is now going to be very busy and it does not have transport. So,we have now provided money for its transport.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Emmanuel Musonda: Madam Chairperson, the New Dawn Government is on record as having said that it wants to be prudent with expenditure and live within the humble means of running Government. How come today, it wants to buy new vehicles for the Teaching Service Commission (TSC), when a few days ago, the President, when he was addressing heads of parastatal institutions said he was against extravagance. So, why buy new vehicles for the TSC?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Let us respect the hon. Member’s question.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, this is not extravagance. The amounts involved are very modest. I am sure the hon. Member is aware that teachers have not been serviced adequately in the past. It has taken long for the TSC to go around, to see who is still acting as head master and senior teacher and how it can confirm them.  I am sure we all agree that these are good things to do for our teachers.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister stated that the K2.8 million will be used to buy four vehicles for the commission. This Government said it will not entertain luxurious vehicles. The commission is based in Lusaka. There are over 100 districts and we have District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS). Should this money not have been used to buy Spacios and Corollas for all of them countrywide than buying four latest models or vehicles for big people in Lusaka, the big bwanas, just to go around the country enjoying per diem and achieving zero? Does the hon. Minister not think that it would have been better to buy 100 Spacios for the Teaching Service Commission (TSC) in the districts?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I understand because the hon. Member’s constituency is here in Lusaka where the roads are reasonably good. However, the TSC has to go to places I will not mention, but it is clear that it has to go to some places which are very remote, where the kind of vehicles the hon. Member mentioned are not capable of being used or suitable.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Madam Chairperson, what type of vehicles will be bought from the K2.8 million?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I cannot go to that detail but I know that it will be vehicles that are appropriate for the work that the commission does.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11– (Zambia Police Service–K62,928,000).

Mr Emmanuel Musonda: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4156 – Crime Detection and Investigation Services, Sub Programme 2001 – General Crime Investigations Services – K52,928,000.The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has provided K52,928,000 for this sub-programme, and I hope that after we approve the appropriation of this money, details about the missing lady who was operating a mobile money booth will be availed to this nation. Up to today, we do not know the whereabouts of this lady. As concerned leaders of this country, we hope when this money is given to the Zambia Police Service, the hon. Minister of Justice will come to this Floor and tell us exactly where this lady is.

The Chairperson: Do we take that as a comment?

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub Programme 2001 – General Crime Investigations Services – K52,928,000. In the 2022 Budget, K19.7 million was allocated to this sub programme and,today,the hon. Minister is asking for K52 million. What is the purpose of this K52 million?

The Chairperson: Since the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is not around, I will ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to answer.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I am sure you will recall that some weeks ago, or perhaps some months ago, the hon. Colleagues on your left were lamenting about the rise in crime. I remember that very well. Therefore, when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security came to ask for money to supplement the crime investigations services, we thought it would be a good idea to do so in order to respond to the cries of the hon. Colleagues on the left so that the police can do their work better.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for the explanation. Is the hon. Minister sure that this money will not be used to abuse people and people’s rights, where somebody goes to report a case or crime allegedly committed in Lusaka in Shangombo and people are transported at night?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I am very sure.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 11ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE12 –(Office of the Public Protector–K1,850,163).    

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I am very grateful for the opportunity to seek clarification from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4124. There is a provision of K1.8 million to add to K264,000 formal-administration redress. Why does the hon. Minister think that in the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, there is going to be more mal-administration for him to provide such a high amount for redress?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, let me start by saying that after the 2022 Budget was passed, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we have order, so that the hon. Minister can respond.

Dr Musokotwane: …some donors decided to provide support to the Office of the Public Protector. Since that money came after we had approved the Budget, we put it in the Supplementary Budget to recognise it and the expenditure that went with it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Public Protector is a big thing in South Africa. It is the only office the Constitution established where the public can go to complain, but no one has been appointed to head that office all these years, for some reason. Since the donors gave us this money, as the hon. Minister said, does it mean that after we approve the Supplementary Budget tonight, in the next few days, this Government will appoint the Public Protector? Could the hon. Minister confirm that?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Mrs Sokoni has been in this position for some time now. So, she is there.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Chairperson, is this money for existing claims or contemplated claims?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, when the donors brought the money, it was spent, and now we are recognising that it has been spent because it came after we had approved the Budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14– (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development– K5,000,000).

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Chairperson, are you doubting my name?

Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2108 – Mineral Resource Development and Management, Sub Programme 8003 –Mineral Processing and Research – K5,000,000. The amount has increased fromK90,000 to K5 million. What is the justification? I am looking at the amount of money that was allocated previously and we have moved from K90,000 to K5 million.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the K5 million is for the rehabilitation of the chemistry laboratory infrastructure in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, which will support the small-scale mining sector and certify mineral exports.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Chairperson, I am not quite satisfied with that answer. Perhaps, the hon. Minister can shed more light because, really, if the initial budget was K90,000, and the proposed amount wasK100,000 or K200,000, it would have made sense but it is K5 million; quite a sharp rise and increment. How many laboratories are those? Is it just one? We have to justify why we should support the hon. Minister on this one. I need those details and how come we did we not foresee such a huge deficit?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, it was foreseen, but remember that when you are doing a budget, your money is limited. You only have so much. So, some of   may be important but because your money is limited, you cannot do them. Now that debt servicing has been reduced and in order to support the small-scale miners so that they can do their exports, and I think we all agree that it is good to support the small-scale miners, we have now said that since there is some money, we will rehabilitate the laboratory so that our small-scale miners can benefit.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, I just want to seek clarity, and the Zambians out there. Where will this laboratory be constructed? Will it be centrally located or in Lusaka or outside Lusaka...

Mr Lusambo: Or on the black mountain.

Mr Mushanga: … or on the black mountain?

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry, I am not able to provide that answer because it is very detailed,   the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is here, the hon. Member can speak to him. He will give him the answer.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairperson: If other hon. Ministers are around, they can help the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to answer the questions that will be raised on their respective ministries.

VOTE 15 (Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – K165,091,972)

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, …

Mr Chilangwa: … I seek clarification on Programme 4126 – National Registration Passport and Citizenship, Unit 3, Sub-programme 6002 – National Registration – K159,909,942. What is this money meant for? Does it also include the programme for migration which we have been discussing over the last few days? I need a clarification on this particular increase because we are moving from K15 million to almost K110 million.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, we come here to do work for the people of Zambia. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete, Hon. Mutelo, in order to come and sit on your left next to us and start telling us abantu nabanaka lekeni ukwipusha? Is he in order? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Thank you for that point of order. The hon. Member for Mitete is definitely out of order because we agreed last Friday that we are going to be here until we conclude all the business on the Order Paper. With that guidance, we shall continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4126 – National Registration Passport and Citizenship, Unit 3, Sub-programme 6002 – National Registration – K159,909,942 which the hon. Member is asking about is for the new biometric identity cards which will be rolled out. I am sure you are aware that the current identity cards are not digitised and, therefore, there is always a risk of one National Registration Card (NRC) number belonging to two peopleor more. However, with this identity card that is coming, which is biometric, card itself is only assigned to oneperson. You will agree with me that it is going to improve the way we identify our citizens. So, the amount of money is for the purpose of introducing those new identity cards.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on page six, under the same Head, Programme: 4199 Management and Support Services, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resource Management and Administration – K7,000,000. There is a jump in the allocation from K31,000 to K7 million. What is the justification for that?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme: 4199 – Management and Support Services, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resource Management and Administration – K7,000,000 is for facilitating the procurement of motor vehicles. I think we are all aware that the issues of drug and drug trafficking and consumption are reaching very unacceptable levels. To police, monitor and do something about this, transport is required by the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC).

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda: Madam Chairperson, on a point of procedure. My dear hon. Member from Kamfinsa was asking on Head 16 but we are on Head 15. He was asking about the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC).

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, can we please move at the same level. Do not go to the next Head before we conclude the one we are dealing with. We are on Head 15.

Mr Emmanuel Musonda: Madam Chairperson, now, I seek clarification on Head 15, Programme 4125 – Migration Services, Unit 2, Sub-programme 5001 – Immigration Services Provision – K3,195,326 and Sub-programme 5001 – Immigration Services Provision – K1,080,000. There are two sub-programmes under 5001 – Immigration Services Provision and there is a drastic reduction from K43,292,974 to K3,195,326 and K11,052,623 to K1,080,000. What has happened to immigration services? Have people now started shunning coming to Zambia?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4125 – Migration Services, Sub-programme 5001 – Immigration Services Provision – K3,195,326 and Sub-programme 5001 – Immigration Services Provision – K1,080,000, there is no reduction here. At the beginning of this year, the amount allocated to immigration was K11,052,623. Now, we are asking for K1,080,000 additional funds. It is not to say it was originally at K11 million and we are now reducing it to K1 million. No. Do not interpret it like that. This is an additional amount.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarity on Programme 4126 – Legal Identity, Civil Registration and Citizenship Services, Sub-programme 6002 – National Registration – K159,909,942. We have a problem with people getting passports. People have applied and have not gotten their passports for three months. Is part of this allocation meant to resolve whatever the problem is at the Passport Office so that people can get passports and get on with their business?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4126 – Legal Identity, Civil Registration and Citizenship Services, Sub-programme 6002 – National Registration – K159,909,942, the answer is no. The issue of passports is addressed separately. This is for the identity cards.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarity on Programme 4126 – Legal Identity, Civil Registration and Citizenship Services, Sub-Programme 6002 – National Registration – K159,909,942. The amount has increased from K15,000,000 to K159,909,942. I know other hon. Colleagues have asked about this, but what I want to find out is if this will include the digitalisation of our national identities in conformity with international standards, especially passports and National Registration Cards (NRCs).

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning may respond, although I think he had answered.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I have answered this several times. It is just the digitisation of the identity cards.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – (K7,000,000)

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, in spite of the hon. Member for Kamfinsa having sought clarification on this Head, which clarification the hon. Minister gave, I have a further point of clarification. May I have clarification on Programme: 4199 – Management and Support Services, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources Management and Administration – K7,000,000. The hon. Minister said the money is meant for buying vehicles.

Madam Chairperson, from K31,650 to K7,000,000, why only buy vehicles when this is an institution that we expect to take care of many money laundering activities? Why is this Head only taking care of the purchase of vehicles and not other operations?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme: 4199 – Management and Support Services, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources Management and Administration – K7,000,000 meant for buying vehicles is what the institution identified as its most critical need. So, I can only assume that the other items are okay and this therefore, is appropriate.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme: 4199 – Management and Support Services, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources Management and Administration – K7,000,000. Considering that this amount has been provided under Human Resource Management and Administration, does it also include or have a provision for training as regards enhancing the capacity of members of staff at the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), regarding ethics and professional conduct that they are expected to exhibit?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the amount has been requested for motor vehicles.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses on this Programme. It is a very important commission to our nation, and it is doing a very good job. May I have clarification on Programme 4199, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources Management and Administration – K7,000,000 is what the hon. Minister is asking for to facilitate the buying of vehicles. Some terrains do not need vehicles. They have lakes and water. So, should this money not have been spent maybe, on banana boats and various types of boats?

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I think we are at a risk of perhaps micro-managing these institutions. We have to have confidence that the human beings that we have put there are properly trained and they know what they are doing. They have requested for motor vehicles and that is what they are getting.

Madam, I thank you.

Vote 16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17 – (The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Internal Cooperation – K396,820,336)

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3436, Sub-programme 6009 – Mission Abroad–Mortgage Financing – K150,513,249 and Sub-programme 7001 – Missions Abroad Economic and Political Cooperation– K 194,546,605.

Madam Chairperson, on Sub-programme 6009, K1 million was made available at the beginning of this year, and we are jumping from K1 million to K150,513,249. It is the same with Sub-programme 7001 – Missions Abroad Economic and Political Cooperation – K37,646,767 was made available at the beginning of the year you are asking for K194,546,605. What is the justification looking at the big amounts of money that you asking for, especially that the year is almost ending? If we survived on K1 million why is the Government asking for K150,513,249?

Mr Syakalima interjected.

Mr Mushanga: Hon. Minister of Education, the question is for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I am sure we are aware that the state of some of our diplomatic residencies outside the country is very poor. Now that a bit of money was found, it was decided that we provide extra money for New York so that these housing units can be improved. Those of us who have visited these units will agree with me that many of them are in very bad state because of lack of maintenance. So, this will take care of this problem.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, it is basically the same question on Programme 3436, Sub-programme 6009 – Mission Abroad–Mortgage Financing – K150,513,249, why are we spending K150,513,249 to rehabilitate houses when there is a water problem in Mpika and Kamfinsa? Why not priorities things that are locally affecting the people of Zambia?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, because as a country, we must have representatives abroad. The United Nations (UN) is in New York and that is where a lot of diplomatic work takes place. So, I understand what the hon. Member is talking about, but that problem also has its own budget and this has got its own budget, to rehabilitate our missions abroad. 

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Madam Chairperson, Programme 3436, Sub-programme 6009 – Mission Abroad–Mortgage Financing – K150,513,249. Why has that amount moved from K1 million to K150,513,249? Is it not that mortgage financing figures are already set and pre-determined?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry, but could the hon. Member please repeat her question. I did not quite follow.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Madam, you can repeat your question.

Laughter

Ms Lungu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3436, Sub- programme 6009 – Missions Abroad – Mortgage Financing – K150,513,249. The amount has jumped significantly from K1 million. Usually, with mortgages, amounts are already known. What has changed to cause this amount to go up significantly? I hope that has been understood.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 3436, Sub- programme 6009 – Missions Abroad – Mortgage Financing – K150,513,249, as I said earlier on, some of these numbers here reflected do not necessarily reflect adequacy, but what could be done with the resources that were available then. So, it is not as if the K1 million was adequate. So, now, we have to supplement because obviously the K1 million was not adequate.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3436, Sub-programme 7001 – Missions Abroad Economic and Political Corporation – K194,546,605. We had budgeted K37,646,767, but are now pushing higher. Why?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3436, Sub-programme 7001 – Missions Abroad Economic and Political Corporation – K194,546,605 this was money that was not spent last year which is now a carryover this year and this is what it is.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, the Government has always stated its position against luxury spending. The K396,820,336 million that has been allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation really needs to be justified on the Floor of the House. There is no way this money can be allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation and yet the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, which needs to take care of our roads, has literally none. To the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, which needs to take care of our township roads in Mpika, Kamwanya and Chitulika, a minimal amount has been allocated. What justification, really, is there for this colossal amount of money to be allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, where luxury is the order of the day?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I do not think we should go that route of talking about luxury or a lack of it because this Government – I do not want to make comparisons and drift in that direction, okay. So, there is no luxury here. It is just doing the basics of making sure that the diplomatic service also has a share of the national resources to be able to do its work. This Government did not open these missions. This Government found these missions. So, there are no luxuries here; it is just us providing the basics of what is required.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, maybe let me guide a bit. You are trying to look at the figures that are there. You are questioning the figures that are there and not trying to compare because all the departments or ministries that are here are all Government institutions and are very important. So, let us be focused and just question the figures that are there without necessarily comparing and saying, “In my constituency, there is this and there is that.” We are looking at the figures that the hon. Minister has presented to us.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, I heard the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning state that New York is one of the missions abroad that will be rehabilitated and the houses there will be rehabilitated. Could he categorically state if the Chancery for the New York Mission is part of those that will be rehabilitated? If possible, he can also mention to the House the other missions that have been identified for rehabilitation.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, this amount was requested for by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation for housing units renovations in New York. Regarding the other missions, they have their own challenges, but they are not part of this supplementary.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisanga: Madam Chairperson, mine, again, is just to find out if this K150 million has taken into account currency fluctuations because these mortgages are going to be procured in Dollar denomination.

Dr Musokotwane: Prices are always changing, Madam Chairperson. This was the request that was made and we believe it is adequate. However, you can never guarantee that prices can never change because that happens every day.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: For the sake of time, I will take the last two questions.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4399, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources and Administration – K5,000,000. What was there was K1,432,173. We are being requested for K5,000,000. What sub-programmes is this for? Since it is Human Resource and Administration, are we employing or recruiting? I am just looking at the figure itself.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4399, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources and Administration – K5,000,000 is for paying personnel emoluments related issues such as leave and repatriation of the recalled members of staff.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, this field of foreign affairs is one area where the Treasury has a haemorrhage. That is where money has been lost year in year out. The K150 million that the hon. Minister is asking this Parliament to give him to pay mortgages abroad – I do not know whether it is to buy houses or pay for offices – can be used to construct that road to Liuwa Constituency or to any other constituency that is suffering because of poor roads.

Madam Chairperson, foreign embassies should be sending money here like other missions for other countries do. The missions have buildings bought in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era that can be rented out or uplifted to bring in income. Why are we spending so much money, ...

Hon. Opposition Member: US$10 million.

Mr Sampa: ... US$10 million, to support a few, the 0.01 per cent, of Zambians out there enjoying luxury instead of using it to fix our roads countrywide?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, these missions were not invented by the United Party for National Development (UPND). They were there under the United National Independence Party (UNIP), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and the Patriotic Front (PF). So, they are there.

Madam Chairperson, New York is obviously the centre of diplomatic activities, as I said, unless you are saying the country should shut down key diplomatic activities. However, coming back to the hon. Member’s point about doing things in rural areas, this Government is not only taking care of diplomatic activities, but is also doing a lot more than any other Government to take money to rural areas. So, we are doing both. We are taking care of the diplomatic activities as well as our rural people; for example, through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) like never before. We are putting so much money in class rooms, teachers’ houses, health facilities, water and paying bursaries for our school children. So, we are doing that and at the same time sending a lot of money into rural areas.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

Vote 17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K57, 538,684)

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4199, Sub-programme 9005 – Procurement Management – K15,190,365. What was available was K2,996,051. We are being requested to approve or provide K15,190,365. What is the justification for this request?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4199, Sub-programme 9005 – Procurement Management – K15,190,365 is to provide for the procurement of office equipment and furniture for the courts. This is what this money is for.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4158, Sub-programme 2005 – First Level Adjudication –. K33,267,700. I would like the hon. Minister to enlighten us on the request that we approve K33,267,700 as a Supplementary Budget to K7,409,343. What is it for and what is the justification?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4158, Sub-programme 2005 – First Level Adjudication – K33,267,700 is to facilitate for the procurement of motor vehicles for subordinate courts in districts.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4158, Sub-programme 2004 – Lower Intermediate Adjudication – K7,500,000. I seek justification for the decrease from K53,023,603 to K7,500,000.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4158, Sub-programme 2004 – Lower Intermediate Adjudication – K7,500,000, if I understood Hon. Katambo, then the answer is that this money is required for settling-in allowances for judges, magistrates and support staff that were transferred countrywide.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I must commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because ideally and procedurally all the hon. Ministers whose portfolio functions have been cited in this Supplementary Budget should have been the ones to respond, but the hon. Minister is doing well and being overworked.

Hon. PF Members: Working for them.

Mr Kampyongo: I will draw the hon. Minister’s attention to two programmes. May I have clarification on Programme 4158, Sub-programme 2005 – First Level Adjudication – K33,267,700. In response to Hon. Mukosa, the hon. Minister stated that the money was for procurement of motor vehicles.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 4199, Sub-programme 9005 – Procurement Management – K15,190,365.

Madam Chairperson, I want the hon. Minister to reconcile the procurement of motor vehicles for which he is requesting to cost K33,267,700 and the cost of equipment. Are they put on different programmes? How does the hon. Minister reconcile those two programmes?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4158, Sub-programme 2005 – First Level Adjudication –. K33,267,700 and Programme 4199, Sub-programme 9005 – Procurement Management – K15,190,365 are different. One is for motor vehicles and the other one is for office equipment.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 19 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – K115,561,560)

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, it is my wish that as we will be considering the Budget, hon. Ministers should be able to come and answer questions. It is their Budget after all. I would like to tell the hon. Minister of Justice that it is his budget and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will not be working for other hon. Ministers.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Mung’andu, we are running out of time. What is your question?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3401, Sub-programme 5001 – Disaster Prevention and Mitigation – K107,557,840 and Programme 3402, Sub-programme 6003 – Humanitarian Relief Services – K72,031

Madam Chairperson, I am concerned about Humanitarian Relief Services. I know that maybe in the next few days or weeks, the people of Chama will be in need of relief food because of drought and the human/animal conflict. However, I can only see K72,031. I need an explanation. Is this is a combination of disaster prevention and mitigation or Humanitarian Relief Services allocation is as it is? If it is as it is, then why? We need more money for Humanitarian Relief Services.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Chairperson, hon. Members are raising issues such as: “Why is the amount K20 when it was K5?” Every Budget is dependent on the resource envelope. Even in January, no one here said we had allocated enough for a particular Vote. There is never enough. We look at what we have and, therefore, as we go on, it means that when we find resources, we should actually put everywhere. We can even tell from the way our hon. Colleagues are coming out by asking: “Why not this and why not that?” The issue is that this supplementary simply helps to increase allocations and not to decrease them. That is one thing.

Madam, as regards the allocation for disasters, I remember hon. Colleagues on your left saying that what we had allocated was generally not enough. On the issue of humanitarian aid, the world over is concentrating on prevention and resilience to disasters. So, it is critical that the hon. Minister gives us enough resources. In fact, most of them come from the donors. This enables us to work on prevention.

Madam Chairperson, right now, under the Office of the Vice-President, we are looking at projects and programmes that can prevent the actual disasters, so that we do not have to look so much at humanitarian aid. We are looking at preventing the disruptive behaviour of disasters. So, it is important that we have more money for prevention. For example, what can we do for our people in Mambwe? What can we do for our people before the disaster occurs? That is why we are seeing this kind of money. That is the new way of thinking world over. So, this is why they can see this kind of thing happening.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate Her Honour the Vice-President’s response. She is basically talking about risk reduction against disasters and that is the way to go. I had asked a question on this allocation under Programme 3401, Unit 01, Sub-programme 5001 – Disaster Prevention and Mitigation – K107,557,840. When I asked last time, when we were considering the Budget about this K4,237,000 not being enough, the response and assurance we got was that this activity was going to be catered for under contingency funds in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. How come today, the hon. Minister is now proposing a Supplementary Budget of K107,557,840, when he had given that assurance of the contingency fund at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning?

Eng. Nzovu interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Green economy, you are not answering for your Vote, but you are talking seated there? Madam Chairperson, I seek your protection.

The Chairperson: Are you through?

Mr Kampyongo: I am through and I hope the hon. Minister and Her Honour the Vice-President have got my question.

The Chairperson: Is it the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, yes. It may have been the case that the money was not adequate. Due to the diplomatic efforts of the President and the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, more money was attracted in this particular case from donors. So, this increment is there to recognise that money from donors after the 2022 Budget was approved. Of course, it is going to be helpful to our people.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Chairperson, I think my question has been answered by Her Honour the Vice-President.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, I do not know if it is a typing error or this is the way it is. I know there are disasters which are caused by Mother Nature, which we cannot plan for and these are disasters which happened in areas I think we know. Are we saying we have increased the K72,000 allocated for disasters? The increase which is there, is it enough for the disasters which are caused by Mother Nature and not those disasters which we know we can prevent?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, how can one ever tell at the time of budgeting that this money is enough for disasters or not? One cannot tell. All one can do is to make a provision and hope that it will be enough. So, this is the situation. We have made a provision and we hope that it is going to be enough.

I thank you, Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I will get the last two interventions.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3401, Unit 01, Activity 5001 – Disaster Prevention and Mitigation – K107,557,840. I do recall that under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), there is 5 per cent for community projects to be used for any disaster in the constituency. Now, are we trying to say that this sharp increase from K4 million to K107 million for Disaster Prevention and Mitigation is meant to relocate people or rather, should we look to the Central Government for disasters in our constituencies other than the 5 per cent of CDF for community projects?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the question was not clear and, therefore, it is difficult to answer. However, just to repeat what I said; after we approved the Budget last year, some donors decided to provide extra money to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and this is the money that we are now recognising. As for budgets for the disasters in our constituencies, it depends. We agreed last year, that for certain disasters like roofs blowing off, constituencies should budget under their Constituency Development Fund (CDF). If there are major things like hunger, drought and so on and so forth, that will be dealt with by the DMMU.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: The last clarification will be from Mr Kafwaya.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the hon. Minister. He has indicated that after the Budget was approved, some donors decided to give money to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and DMMU decided to allocate K107 million to Programme 3401, Unit 01, Sub-programme 5001 – Disaster Prevention and Mitigation, making the initial estimate jump by 2,700 per cent. What are the key mitigation drivers which informed the DMMU to allocate K107 million to Sub-programme 5001?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I will try to understand what the hon. Member is concerned about. I think there are two things that he is talking about. He is connecting humanitarian aid to the earlier issue. Humanitarian comes in after a disaster. Therefore, it is something that one cannot plan for. That is why it still remains under contingence funds because one cannot know exactly what is going to happen. That is a disaster. If one knows what is going to happen, then it is not a disaster. We look at things that are likely to happen, and that is where the prevention, risk reduction part starts from. If we know that this may happen, we prepare for it. We cannot know whether a roof will be blown off or not. So, if we talk of how we can prepare for the two different issues, it is important to understand it from that point of view.

Madam Chairperson, we literally cannot know exactly how much we need to spend on disaster mitigation. However, for the preparation, we need to do something about it. That is why hon. Members can see the segregation of the figures, where one amount is smaller than the other because it will still remain in the contingence.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members, let us be conscious of time. We have not even gone half way because of many questions. Some of the questions are actually being repeated. So, in order for us to move fast, I am going to have maybe, a maximum of only four hon. Members. That is the maximum. It will be four and below.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: This is just a Supplementary Budget.

Hon. Member: Nganaunaka kuyafye!

Interruptions

VOTE 21 – (Loans and Investments – K10,039,114,981)

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3439, Unit 01, Sub-programme 01 – Recapitalisation and Investments – K650,000,000. Which organisations or institutions is the Government recapitalising? Where is it investing this K650, 000,000?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, this is an item that combines a number of issues, which include capital projects investment, and legal and communication advisers. This is with respect to the debt management and potential cash injection to some state-owned enterprises (SOEs).

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3439,

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Mwanza, please speak up. We cannot hear you.

Dr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3440, Unit 01, Sub-programme 01 – Road Infrastructure Investment and Management – K2,045,473,735. The allocation has increased from K170,000,000 to K2,045,473,735. I am told this money is supposed to dismantle arrears for road projects. What about the new projects that are under the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) model? Does this K2,045,473,735 allocation include projects which are under the PPP model?

Laughter

Mr. Sing’ombe: Dokota!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3440, Unit 01, Sub-programme 01 – Road Infrastructure Investment and Management – K2,045,473,735 which I mentioned in my statement is meant to facilitate for emergency works such as on potentially impassable roads when the rainy season comes. As for the Public-Private partnership (PPP), by definition, all we pay for is our own administrative expenses. Otherwise, the roads themselves are done by the private sector.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Emmanuel Musonda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3440, Unit 01, Sub-programme 01 – Road Infrastructure Investment and Management – K2,045,473,735. The hon. Minister has just stated that these are roads that were potentially started and that the Government wants to complete them. May I know whether from the K2,045,473,735 that he has provided, the hon. Minister will consider completing the upgrading to bituminous standard the Luwingu/Lupososhi/Samfya Road Project?

Madam Chairperson: Now we are trying to go into details of the Budget. This is the whole budget. The details will come somewhere. Let us not waste time going into other specifics of the constituencies.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I wish the hon. Colleague listened carefully to what I was saying. Programme 3440, Unit 01, Sub-programme 01 – Road Infrastructure Investment and Management – K2,045,473,735 is meant to deal with roads which are potentially impassable in the coming rainy season. Very soon, a number of hon. Colleagues will be seeing the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development saying their roads have been cut off. So, this money is for that purpose. We are not talking about new roads and other things. This is to deal with potential emergency cases.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson. 

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3460, Unit 01, Sub-programme 05 – Dismantling of Arrears –  K6,565,000,000. Is it for local arrears only?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3460, Unit 01, Sub-programme 05 – Dismantling of Arrears –  K6,565,000,000 is for all arrears.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE26 – (Ministry of Information and Media –K6,000,000).

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme3499–Management and Support Services, Sub-Programme 9002 –Human Resources and Administration – K6,000,000. Will this increase support to the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) officers in different rural areas so that they are equipped with furniture, cameras and other things?

The Minister of Information and Media (Ms Kasanda): Madam Chairperson, as the hon. Member of Parliament may be aware, we want to improve capacity so that we have a flow of information in the ministry. We plan to buy cameras that have been lacking in most districts. As you may be aware, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasanda: …the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) is dotted around the 116 districts, yet it does not have equipment and furniture, and that is what we are looking into.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sampa: It is the last one, Madam.

Madam Chairperson, can one of the best and hardworking hon. Ministers confirm that this additional budget of K6 million will now make her office proactive to speak to the nation on matters of concern on a daily basis, on whatever comes up and on trending matters like what is trending today, which I will not mention?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Chairperson, the answer is yes.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29–(Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development–K154,000,000).

Mr Mushanga: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-Programme 4001–Local Government Administration – K150,000,000. The budget allocation was K144,768 and the Executive is requesting for K150,000,000. The difference is too huge. What is the justification for that allocation?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, as you can imagine, there are many local authorities with huge debts and this amount goes towards that.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Chairperson, according to the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development is mandated to rehabilitate roads in urban and rural areas. K150,000,000 has been allocated to Sub-Programme 4001–Local Government Administration. I ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning this question because of the answers that we have been getting on the Floor, that the Government will be able to undertake the works when money is made available and here is an opportunity. Will the hon. Minister add more money to this figure so that there can be visibility of services in areas like Mandevu, where roads are in a very bad state?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, for now, the available resources have been allocated as indicated. There is no extra money for the items that the hon. Member is talking about.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE31 – (Ministry of Justice–K47,608,421).

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, may the hon. Minister of Justice give a clarification for the additional K47,608,421 that has been requested for approval in the Supplementary Budget in addition to the K1,806,478 which was initially budgeted?

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, S.C.): Madam Chairperson, the additional amount required is to attend to increased human resource requirements owing to the devolution of the Ministry of Justice to the provinces. So, basically, you will receive better services across the board with more advocates in provincial centres.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, that does not explain anything. What kind of devolution to districts and provinces requires K41 million? This is people’s money. We need proper explanations, not just saying devolution and it ends there.

Laughter

Mr Haimbe, S.C.: Madam Chairperson, unfortunately, the level at which the hon. Member is able to understand issues, perhaps, might be where we are misunderstanding each other. It is very clear when someone says devolution. We are employing more lawyers into the provinces, not just at headquarters. That means that there will be nine additional centres where there will be lawyers. I hope that is very clear. There can be no more clear explanation than that.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Chairperson, I am happy the hon. Minister is saying he is going to deploy or employ more officers in his ministry. Is the hon. Minister ready to complete the magistrates’ court buildings across this country which have stalled? Is he able to come with another Supplementary Budget or will the completion of those magistrates’ buildings across the country be attended to in this K41 million?

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, I feel that the hon. Member is asking this question at the wrong time. The appropriate Vote for the consideration of that was that of the Judiciary. The Ministry of Justice, which we are dealing with now, is the substantive ministry and not the Judiciary. So, that question, with due respect, is misplaced.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I am told our dinner is ready.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo rose.

The Chairperson: Is it a question?

Mr Kampyongo: A counter proposal.

Madam Chairperson, on behalf of my hon. Colleagues here, we are ready to continue and, maybe, just break off once without coming back. We know that we will not go beyond 2300 hours, so, we can go on maybe up to2200 hours.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Are you through?

Mr Kampyongo: … it appears hon. Members did not understand when we were suspending the Standing Orders. When we suspend the Standing Orders, we must understand that those are not just procedural Motions. So, on behalf of my hon. Colleagues here, we are ready to go up to 2200 hours so that we break off once and all.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

That is a suggestion. We do not know how the other party takes it. There is a suggestion to either continue or break. What is your suggestion?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, there are many health issues here and some people really need a short break to have their meals. That is the suggestion from this side.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I suspend business and we are supposed to be here at 2200 hours.

Business was suspended from 2114 hours until 2200 hours.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Vote 33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37 – (The Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K2,482,754,750)

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3421, Sub-programme 1004 – Public Private Partnership Management – K 1,604,625. Could the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning indicate what activities will constitute this expenditure.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3421, Sub-programme 1004 – Public Private Partnership Management – K 1,604,625, this money is for office work and the majority of it is that when a Public-Private Partnership (PPP) is called for, there is a possibility of the Government undertaking a feasibility study for that proposed project and the money that has been put here is to provide for the possibility of feasibility studies being undertaken.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – (12,667,612)

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2137, Sub-programme 7001 – Labour Inspections and Employment – K3,759,112. The initial budget was K55,000 and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is asking us to approve K 3,759,112. How many inspectors will be employed under this sub-programme?

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Madam Chairperson, it is well understood across the nation that the ministry in the past dispensation had very few activities. Programmes such as inspections are very fundamental to maintaining that industrial peace which is so required for productivity to be enhanced.

Madam Chairperson, while we are not necessarily looking at recruiting at this moment, the point is that we are seeking to increase the number of activities and inspections across the board With more industries coming on board, this will be appreciated. We have embarked on a very ambitious programme of labour inspections as required and demand by our people.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to Programme 2199, Sub-programme 9010 – Information Management – K4,478,000, where he is seeking approval for a supplementary allocation of K 4,478,000 when you had an allocation of K 440,096. What justification do you have for this allocation?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, in the recent past we have had questions on the Floor of the House which sought to ask about – Programme 2199, Sub-programme 9010 – Information Management – K4,478,000, seeks to track employment growth in the Small and Medium Enterprise (SME)sector.

Madam Chairperson, our response is that we are closely working with Zambia Statistics Agency (ZamStats) to ensure that we upscale the activities that we have done on labour market surveys and many others to zero in on specifics relating to tracking and developing tools of research. These activities will inform us to design those tools that are going to help us to start tracking SME jobs as this is the area where we are growing the economy in this transformative agenda. So, a lot of the money is going towards those information systems that we have spoken about which relate to job tracking.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2139, Sub-programme 9001 – Occupational Safety and Health Inspections and Investigations – K20,000. We initially allocated K20,000 and now we have K850,000. This is very, very, important. Our people are being abused particularly by investors. Is this K850,000 enough? Worse, it was K20,000 before and now it is only K850,000. Are you going to carry out this sub-programme maybe, in one district or the entire nation? If it is the entire nation, it is too insignificant. Why?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Chairperson, I am highly appreciative of those who support our agenda on this. Occupational Health and Safety (OSH) has now been upgraded to a fundamental principle now. You cannot avoid it and so, indeed, we will be seeking, in the next Budget more activities to cover the rest of the nation. For now, we are looking at the deficit areas that we did not cover very well and this is over a period of six months. So, I do appreciate what the hon. Member has brought to the table, but we are looking at a period of six months and specific activities that will fill up the gaps for this particular financial year. However, for the next financial year, he will see a lot more because we will certainly look at all areas, especially where industry is expanding exponentially.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45 – (Ministry of Community Development and Social Services – K500,000)

Mr Musonda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5452, Sub-programme 1002 – Disability Affairs – K500,000. What type of disability affairs is the ministry going to carry out with the K500,000 that has been proposed or do we see the hon. Minister coming back to this House to ask for more?

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms Mwamba): Madam Chairperson, Programme 5452, Sub-programme 1002 – Disability Affairs – K500,000 will be sufficient.

 

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5452, Sub-programme 1002 – Disability Affairs – K500,000, actually there is only one Sub-programme here, which is, Disability Affairs –K500,000. We budgeted K16,089,346 initially. The hon. Minister is proposing K500,000 only. Could the hon. Minister be kind enough to explain to us what has necessitated this K500,000? We expect more people to be helped. We have more disabled people who need support from her ministry. We expected something in the range of K5 million or K6 million under this Head. Now K500,000 has been proposed. What specific sub-programme is this?

Ms Mwamba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5452, Sub-programme 1002 – Disability Affairs – K500,000 Supplementary Budget will enable us to identify more persons with disabilities and what type of disabilities they have and whether they have minor disabilities or they have severe disabilities. If they have severe disabilities, they will be put on social protection programmes.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Minister telling us that she does not know exactly what she intends to do with this money?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Lusambo: She has to explain to us. She has not identified the sub-programmes, so she does not know the use of this money. Why then are we allocating this money to her ministry?

The Chairperson: The question is not clear, but the hon. Minister may answer.

Ms Mwamba: Madam Chairperson, I have clearly stated that the funds are for identification and classification of persons with disabilities and also for sensitisation.

I thank you, Madam.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, order!

Vote 45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K392,099,372)

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, on this allocation in the Supplementary Budget for the Ministry of Health, I am thinking about the current shortages of drugs that we are facing across the country, and part of the reason for that is the inadequate funding. We know that the budget for the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supply Agency (ZAMMSA) for this year is K19 billion, and the current Budget has an allocation of K3.6 billion. I was expecting that in this Supplementary Budget, a big chunk of what goes to the Ministry of Health would go to the purchase of drugs, but I have not seen any line here for drugs and essential medicines.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, if what the hon. Member was saying was true, money would have been provided for drugs. The money is sufficient and the hon. Minister of Health is just cleaning up so that procurements are done properly. Money is not the issue.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I was amongst those who complained on the Floor of this House over the non-availability of medicines in our hospitals. However, what we are seeing here is a carryover –

Interjections

Mr Mung’andu: It is not the same question. I want to build my question.

It is a carryover in terms of resources. We had money, but it was just sitting and yet there were no drugs in hospitals.

Madam Speaker, I will give an example. Unit 12, Sub-programme 1001 – Primary Health Services – K192,308,289

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, according to Standing Order 206 (a), the dress code for members is a formal executive suit, or a pair of long trousers, a shirt, neck tie, and a jacket.

Madam Chairperson, we are short of time, but even as we sit here, we all have to feel safe. Hon Members have to be dressed properly. Is Hon. Miyutu, Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central Constituency in order to come here in military gear?

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, we are getting scared in this House.

Ms Mulenga: He is looking like a security guard.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I seek your guidance. Otherwise, we are not feeling safe in here.

Madam Chairperson: I will allow the Deputy Chief Whip to attend to that.

Hon. Mung’andu, you may proceed.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I draw the attention of the hon. Minister to Unit 12, Sub-programme 1001 – Primary Health Services – K192,308,289. Our budget was K38,691,711 and the supplementary estimate is proposing K192,308,289 and is showing a carry over, meaning the money was sitting and yet our people had no drugs.

Can the hon. Minister justify this K38, 691,711 to K192, 308,289. What activity under primary health services will this amount address?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, in Unit 12, Sub-programme 1001 – Primary Health Services – K192,308,289, the extra money is that which was not spent in 2021 and now is being recognised to be available for spending in 2022.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 12, Sub-programme 1001 – Primary Health Services – K192,308,289. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has responded that the K192,308,289 is carry over money. Unfortunately, he has not indicated whether the money will be for infrastructure or administrative expenses. Maybe he could just clarify for what purpose the K192, 308,289 will be utilised.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Unit 12, Sub-programme 1001 – Primary Health Services – K192,308,289 is for primary health services.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 46 – Ministry of Health – K392,099,372 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – (59)

Noes – (33)

Abstentions – (Nil)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 51 – (Ministry of Transport and Logistics – K69,965,580)

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson ...

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Kapyanga: ... I seek clarification on Programme 2115, Unit 510, Sub-programme 5002 – Road and Rail Transport Services – K66,689,080. I come from Mpika, where we house the headquarters for the Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA). As I am speaking right now, TAZARA workers are in four months salary arrears. The wage bill stands at K38 million and the proposed recapitalisation of TAZARA, as agreed by the council of ministers in October, 2019, is US$225 million. The allocation which has been increased on the Budget is K51,312,512. May I find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning if this allocation is inclusive of salaries for TAZARA workers, more especially the salary arrears which this Government has been perpetuating with impunity.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Mr Sampa, what is your point of order before the hon. Minister comes in?

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, it is very important that we follow the precedent we set in this House. Last week, I was wearing a very expensive cultural white shirt from Indonesia, and I was asked to leave because it was not allowed. I raised a point of order earlier on the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo, a very good brother of mine but nothing was done. Precedents are precedents, but the presiding officer has ignored that point of order and the hon. Member continues to be in this House. We are scared here because it is believed he is wearing a military outfit and carrying weapons of mass destruction.

The Chairperson: What kind of weapons of mass destruction?

Mr B. Mpundu: Tamuli ibomu mulya?

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious intervention for the sake of maintaining decorum and precedent being obeyed in this House.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I had assigned the Whip to take care of that. Now, since there is no action that has been taken, I  ask the hon. Member for Kalabo Central to go and change, for the sake of progress.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu left the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order! Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Members, now we are discussing the dress code instead of finishing the Supplementary Budget. There is a point of order from the Deputy Chief Whip.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, as you guided me, I did go to the hon. Member ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, allow the hon. Member to finish her point of order.

Ms Kasune: Madam Chairperson, as you guided me, I went to the hon. Member and the hon. Member is in a full official attire as well as a winter coat, just like all of us have. It is just that it is different in colour. His is brown and mine is black, just like many other hon. Members.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I should have reported. So, that is the report I bring back to the House.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, I do not think we can go back to my ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Let us please proceed. Can we please – We know what we are supposed to put on in this House. We are clocking one year of being in this House. We should not be talking about the dress code. We are supposed to progress in what we are doing. Now, we have spent about fifteen minutes just talking about the dress code. We would have finished one or two Heads by now. So, can we please concentrate. Let us finish this work that is before us.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Chairperson, I am very thankful to the hon. Member for that question. Suffice to say that yes, indeed, we do realise the many challenges that the Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) has suffered as a result of an accident which was occasioned particularly on the Chambeshi Bridge. It literary took away all the capacity of the rail company to generate revenue. However, my Government has done everything possible to mitigate the suffering of our fellow citizens working for TAZARA. As a matter of fact, the hon. Member is correct that we do have in this Supplementary Budget monies earmarked to try and offset the salary arrears.

Madam Chairperson, let me also mention that the hon. Member takes away the importance of his question when he trivialises it by alleging that this is a situation that we have allowed with impunity. I think that is not the way we look at these very serious national matters. We found problems at TAZARA, and at the time the New Dawn Administration took over office, the employees were already owed five months’ salary arrears. Despite the stoppage of operations between Kapiri Mposhi and Dar-es-salaam, we have continued to look out for our fellow citizens in terms of providing for their salaries. However, I also want to inform this august House that my Government released monies and funds to rehabilitate Chambeshi Bridge. The works have advanced and I am pleased to inform you that in the next three weeks, we should open Chambeshi Bridge to normalise operations.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub Programme 5002–Road and Rail Transport Services – K66,689,080. The original allocated budget for road and rail transport services was K17 million, but now, we are being asked to approve a Supplementary Budget of almost K66 million. What type of operational improvement do we expect on the operations of the Zambia Railways Limited? I see that it is just a meagre allocation, which is just equivalent to constructing a 1km railway.

Mr Tayali: Madam Chairperson, yes, the hon. Member is right. I admit that my ministry, indeed, looks after very expensive infrastructure in this country. Rail infrastructure is very expensive, not only to maintain but also to rehabilitate. I conquer with him that on the part of Zambia Railways Limited, for the past close to over ten years, we have had critical situations at the Bombwe Bridge on the Mulobezi Line where our people in that area are not able to cross over. Therefore, this Government upon realising the importance of helping our people in that part of the country, spared some resources to attend to the Bombwe Bridge, which the previous Administration was not able to care for in the entire period that it was in office.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 51ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 52– (Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation –K12,000,000).

Mr Lusambo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on pollution control. The budgeted allocation –

Hon. Members: It is not the one.

Mr Lusambo: No. It is the one.

Laughter

Mr Lusambo: Madam Chairperson, it is the one. Pollution control –

The Chairperson: What is your question? We did not hear your question.

Mr Lusambo: Madam Chairperson, the budgeted amount was K69.1 million and they are asking–

The Chairperson: Mr Lusambo, we are on Vote 52. The head total is K12 million so we are not together.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Chairperson, Vote 52 has a Supplementary Budget of K12 million. The hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation is fully aware of the challenges of water in Kitwe and we were excited when we saw extra monies being allocated to the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation. Should we be excited that this K12 million will perhaps go to Nkana Water and Sewerage Company to address the problems of water in Kitwe or what does this money mean?

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, I had guided earlier on and I said that we should avoid going into details because we do not have the notes here to indicate which constituencies this money is going to. I do not think it will be fair for the hon. Minister to start talking about the constituencies now.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Chairperson, as you have ably guided, I think it will not be fair to go into the nitty-gritty of which area this money will go to. However, it is suffice to say that we intend to use this money to procure additional metres so that we can reduce the high non-revenue water due to a lack of metres.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Chairperson, water is a huge challenge, especially in rural areas. There is a supplementary estimate of expenditure of K12 million, andK12 million is a drop in the ocean. Is the hon. Minister comfortable that the current budget will be able to resolve the water challenges?

Mr Mposha: Madam Chairperson, in the given circumstances, I am comfortable.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Chairperson, is the K12 million adequate to procure the metres?

Mr Mposha: Madam Chairperson, there will never be any given time that you will have enough resources. That is why I said, under the given circumstances, I am comfortable and I think it will be enough at this point to procure the metres.

 I thank you, Madam.

Vote 52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 53 - (Ministry of Green Economy and Environment – K48,342,600)

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, Mpika is privileged to host a weather station, but most of the Zambia Meteorological Department (ZMD) infrastructure is worn out. That is why, last year, the nation was misled that the rain would start in October and farmers planted their crops early, around October.

Hon. Government Member: Correct!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order!

What is your question?

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Chairperson, am I protected? These hecklers on your right continue to make noise.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order, order!

Hon. Members, we are wasting time. Can you please finish your question, hon. Member.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam, may I have clarification on Programme 2157, Sub-programme 01– Weather Observation Infrastructure – K4,000,000. Is the K4 million that has been allocated to this very important department, more especially that we are going towards the onset of the rainy season, enough to buy the required infrastructure for the weather department to have correct readings at its weather stations?

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Chairperson, I assure Hon. Kapyanga that other than this K4 million coming as a supplementary budget, there is a lot of money allocated for increasing the number of metrological stations in the previous budget.

Additionally, under the Transforming Landscapes for Resilience and Development (TRALARD) Project, we are going to install about 120 meteorological stations. With the methodical approach we are giving to governance, …

Laughter

Eng. Nzovu: …there is a renewed vision and strength for our workers now.

Madam Chairperson, for the information of Hon. Kapyanga, in the last season, other than him saying farmers were mislead by the Zambia Meteorological Department (ZMD), actually, we must commend the ZMD because it was able to track Tropical Storm Anna. We were able to evacuate our people and provide the necessary logistics because the ZMD was spot on with its predictions.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2158, Sub-programme 01 – Pollution Control – K43,842,600. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has requested that we approve the additional budget of K 43,842,600. Hay he enlighten us as to why there is this additional budget?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 2158, Sub-programme 01 – Pollution Control – K43,842,600, firstly, what we are dealing with in the environmental protection space are legacy issues such as pollution, lead pollution and pollution from the mining activities of many years ago. Additionally, we pronounced ourselves to increasing production in the mining sector, for example, increasing copper production to 3 million tonnes. What this means is that there will be a lot of pressure for us to ensure that there is environmental sustainability in this space, in particular, pollution control. This will demand more resources and I can only thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for allocating us additional funds.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

(Consideration adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 2259 hours until 1400 hours on Thursday, 28^th July, 2022.