Tuesday, 26^th July, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRAYER

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. A. KATAKWE, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SOLWEZI EAST CONSTITUENCY AGAINST SUSPENDED PATRIOTIC FRONT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT FOR ALLEGEDLY LYING TO THE NATION THROUGH THE PUBLIC MEDIA THAT THEY WERE CHASED FROM PARLIAMENT IN ORDER TO PREVENT THEM FROM DEBATING THE PRESIDENT’S SPEECH AND FOR DEFENDING THE CONSTITUTION

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 16^th March, 2022, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 286 and Hon. S. Masebo, the Minister of Health, had just concluded responding to the question, Hon. A. Katakwe, the Member of Parliament for Solwezi East Constituency, raised a point of order. The point of order was against Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members of Parliament who had been suspended the previous day for participating in a protest in the Chamber on 30^th November, 2021.

In the point of order, Hon. A. Katakwe, MP, alleged that the suspended hon. Members of Parliament had lied in the media that they had been suspended to prevent them from debating the President’s State of the Nation Address and for defending the Constitution.

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling in order to study the matter. I have since studied the matter and I will reluctantly rule on this point of order. I say reluctantly for reasons I will explain later.

Hon. Members, the point of order was based on a video footage of a briefing by some PF hon. Members of Parliament, who were suspended on Tuesday 15^th March, 2022. Hon. A. Katakwe, MP, laid a flash disk containing the video footage on the Table. My office had occasion to view the footage which was of a briefing by Hon. B. M. Mundubile, the Leader of the Opposition and Member of Parliament for Mporokoso Constituency, Hon. S. Kampyongo, PF Whip and the Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Constituency and Hon. G. Chisanga, the Member of Parliament for Lukashya Constituency.

A brief account of the hon. Members’ statements is as follows:

   (a)    Hon. B. M. Mundubile, MP, stated that the ruling had been rendered at a time that the country was

          mourning the Fourth Republican President and that he had noticed a trend of rulings being rendered

          during sensitive times.

   (b)   Hon. S. Kampyongo, MP, stated that Parliamentarians had sworn to defend the Constitution and,

         therefore, had to stand up against any attempt to breach it. He said that is what they had done when they

         had protested. He added that they were happy that their protest had yielded positive results through the

         amendment of Head 1 in the Yellow Book.

   (c)  Hon. G. Chisanga, MP, stated that the President’s State of the Nation Address that had been presented

         the previous Friday would be debated by a truncated Parliament. He submitted that this would make the

         process incomplete because the Constitution envisaged all Parliamentarians participating in the debate on

         the President’s Address. He added that, unfortunately, the debate on the President’s Address lasted for

         about fourteen days while they had been suspended for thirty days.

 Hon. Members, I carefully considered the statements made by the PF hon. Members of Parliament during the briefing. I found that Hon. B. M. Mundubile, MP, was lamenting the fact that the ruling was rendered while the nation was mourning the Fourth Republican President. Hon. G. Chisanga, MP, expressed concern that the President’s State of the Nation Address would be debated by a reduced Parliament because some hon. Members were on suspension. Hon. S. Kampyongo, MP, was justifying the PF protest on the basis that it was done in exercise of their constitutional mandate to defend the Constitution and had yielded a positive result of correcting the Yellow Book. I did not at any point hear the hon. Members say that they were suspended to prevent them from debating the President’sAddress or for defending the Constitution as alleged in Hon. A. Katakwe’s point of order. In that regard, I find that the PF hon. Members of Parliament were not out of order.

Hon. Members, I now wish to address why I have reluctantly ruled on the point of order.

Hon. Members, a point of order is intended to bring to the attention of the House a procedural breach. There are, in this regard, several rules governing the admissibility of points of order. I wish to seize this opportunity to remind the House of some of them. Specifically, I wish to draw your attention to Standing Order 131 (3), which states as follows:

“(3)             In raising a point of order, a Member shall cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of Members, rule of procedure or practice, which has been allegedly breached.”

I also wish to draw your attention to Standing Order 131 (6), which provides as follows:

“(6)             A point of order shall only be raised in relation to the conduct of business of the House being transacted at the time the point of order is raised.”

From the foregoing, it is clear that for a point of order to be admissible, the hon. Member raising it must cite the rule of procedure, law or practice on which it is based. Additionally, it must be related to the business being transacted in the House at the material time.

I now wish to address whether Hon. A. Katakwe’s point of order met the foregoing criteria.

I begin with Standing Order 131(3). In raising the point of order, Hon. A. Katakwe, MP, stated, inter alia, as follows:

“Madam Speaker, there are Standing Orders on the behaviour of hon. Members of Parliament. I would not want to go into the details of citing the Standing Orders, but they are on page 98, which is on the privileges, conduct of hon. Members and parliamentary etiquette.”

Hon. Members, by his own admission, Hon. A. Katakwe did not cite the Standing Order on which his point of order was based. In this regard, the point of order did not comply with the requirements of Standing Order 131 (3).

I now turn to address the point of order in relation to Standing Order 131 (6).

In raising the point of order, Hon. A. Katakwe, MP, stated, inter alia:

“I need your indulgence on the behaviour of hon. Members of Parliament, in particular, the PF hon. Members on whose ruling you actually articulated quite well to the nation. They went out there and appeared on public media, including Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), and lied to the nation that they were chased from Parliament in order to prevent them from debating the Presidential Address and for defending the Constitution of Zambia.”

Hon. Members, Standing Order No. 131 (6) requires the point of order to be relevant to the Business being transacted by the House at the time. You may wish to note that at the time Hon. A. Katakwe raised the point of order, the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 286 addressed to the hon. Minister of Health on whether the Government had any plans to construct a district hospital in Pemba. Evidently, there was no relationship between the point of order and the subject matter on the Floor at the time. Additionally, the point of order was based on an incident that occurred outside the House, which cannot be properly brought to the attention of the House through a point of order.

How then does a Member of Parliament bring to the attention of the House a breach that occurred outside the House or one that happened long before or is unrelated to the Business before the House? Standing Order132(4) is instructive in this regard. It provides as follows:

“132(4)   Where a member observes a breach of rules long after the breach has occurred, the member may submit a written complaint to the Speaker.”

Hon. Members, the import of Standing Order132 (4) is that if aMember notices a breach of the rules long after, it could be in the verbatim record, which a Member sees days later, or a newspaper article or, indeed, a video or audio recording, that breach can only be brought to the attention of the House through a complaint to my office.

Hon. Members, from the foregoing, it is clear that Hon. A. Katakwe’s point of order, which was based on something unrelated to the Business at the time and that occurred outside the House did not meet the criterion set out in Standing Order 131 for points of order. Rather, it qualified to be brought under Standing Order 132(4) as a written complaint to the Speaker.

 

Hon. Members, sadly, I have observed an increasing trend by hon. Members to bring matters that happened outside the House through points of order. I am aware that there are currently some matters before the House and the Committee on Privileges and Absences which were erroneously brought through points of order. I wish to guide the House that for those matters already before it, I will proceed to render the rulings, as I have done in this case. However, henceforth, or should I say from now on, I will not entertain any matter that is brought through a point of order when it should be brought through a written complaint. Once again, I urge hon. Members to acquaint themselves with the rules regarding points of order.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, before we go to matters of urgent public importance, let me remind you about our Standing Orders and here I am referringtoStandingOrder204(1) and (2)(a)on parliamentary decorum and etiquette which state as follows:

“(1)        Parliamentary decorum and etiquette refers to an essential standard of behaviour that a member must observe in the House in order to maintain the dignity and decency o fthe House.

(2)          Amembershallobservethefollowingrulesofparliamentaryetiquette:

(a) member shall be in the House or in a meeting room a few minutes before the appointed time for commencement of the sitting of the House and after health  breaks;”

I have seen a tendency of hon. Members coming late and, sometimes, I have to wait and allow hon. Members to settle down. That is in breach of Standing Order No. 204 (2) (a).  Hon. Members, let us endeavour to comply with the Standing Orders for purposes of maintaining order and decorum in the House.

Hon. Members:Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker:Hon. Member for Roan, do you want to raise a matter of urgent public importance? What is the matter?

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, it is not a matter of urgent public importance per se, but a point of order.

Madam Speaker: I have just delivered a ruling. I hope the point of order relates to what has just happened on the Floor of the House because from the time we commenced the sitting, nothing has happened except my ruling and guidance. So, is the point of order on the Presiding Officer? If the point of order –

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, I had indicated way in advance not knowing that we have passed matters of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: We are now on matters of urgent public importance.

Mr J. Chibuye: Much obliged, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:So, if you have a matter of urgent public importance, you can raise it. Proceed.

Mr J. Chibuye: It is not.

Madam Speaker: If it is not, then, we make progress. I see no matter of urgent public importance, so we go to the next item.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF MINI HOSPITALS IN KALABO DISTRICT

384. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Health:

    (a)  whether the Government has any plans to construct mini-hospitals in Kalabo District;

    (b)  if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

    (c)   how many mini-hospitals are earmarked for construction.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct mini-hospitals in Kalabo District and other parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, at the moment, one mini-hospital is earmarked for construction at Sisekano in Kalabo District.

Madam Speaker, the plans will be implemented in the second quarter of 2022.

Madam Speaker, as stated in (a) above, the Government has plans to construct mini-hospitals, therefore, question (d) falls off.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the response given by Her Honour the Vice-President is quite clear. However, I would like to find out about the second quarter of 2022. What could be the schedule of works for such a mini-hospital? How much time does it take for a hospital to be completed?

The Vice-President: Madam, I think I will need a little more time to find out exactly how much time that takes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, apart from the mini-hospital earmarked to be constructed, I do not know if it in Sishekamo, ...

Hon. Members: Sishekano

Mr Mushanga: ... Sishekano, how many more mini-hospitals does the Government intend to construct in Kalabo District? In Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency, all the eight mini-hospitals were completed in 2016.

Madam Speaker: This is a specific question on Kalabo,so, let us not open it wider. It relates to a particular constituency in Kalabo District. Hon. Member for Bwacha, the question that you are asking is not related to Kalabo.

Mr Mushanga:Madam Speaker, the question I asked Her Honour the Vice-President is that apart from the one that the Government intends to construct in Sishekano as she indicated, how many more mini-hospitals does it intend to construct in Kalabo District? That was my question. I later indicated that two mini-hospitals in Kabwe District, one in Katondo and another one in Bwacha, were already completed.

Madam Speaker: So, he is showing off that the Kabwe ones are done.

Her Honour the Vice-President.

The Vice-President:Madam Speaker, I apologise because I do not seem to really be fully equipped with the information that I need to have, but it is gratifying to learn that the Government completed mini-hospitals in other places, and, therefore, its commitment to also construct a mini-hospital in Sishekano I am sure is a statement of fact. We have to see exactly when we will start and complete the project.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, when answering the question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, Her Honour the Vice-President indicated that the Government has plans to construct mini-hospitals in Kalabo and other areas. How many mini-hospitals does the Government intend to construct across the nation?

Madam Speaker:That question was asked and it was answered. Her Honour the Vice-President said that she does not have the details. So, maybe, it is better we wait for the substantive hon. Minister to answer such questions.

Mr Miyutu:Madam Speaker, we expect mini-hospitals to be constructed in the district and although Her Honour the Vice-President indicated that she is not privy to some basic information, how many doctors will be allocated to these mini-hospitals?

Madam Speaker:Let us not expand the questions too wide. The main question is about mini-hospitals, and as you heard from Her Honour the Vice-President, she does not have the full details. So now you are adding a question about how many doctors will be allocated to the mini-hospitals, and, definitely, Her Honour the Vice-President is not prepared for such a question. If we have exhausted the main question, maybe, we can move on, unless the hon. Member for Kalabo Central has another question. I can give him one more chance.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, this question was raised on humanitarian grounds in the sense that we have lost many lives in Kalabo due to long distances andthe lack of referrals and transport, as well as the bad terrain in Kalabo. So, the allocation of mini-hospitals is a welcome move to the people of Kalabo and the services provided by mini-hospitals are of great value to us.I would like to find out whether the mini-hospital will have a mortuary or not.

Madam Speaker: We are now even expanding the question further ...

Laughter

Madam Speaker: ... from a mini-hospital to doctors to mortuary. Let us wait for the hon. Minister and when she comes, we can have a discussion with her. Maybe, she can render a ministerial statement, hoping she comes before we rise. Let us make some progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF A CORRECTIONAL FACILITY IN CHAMA

385. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

     (a) whether the Government has any plans to construct a correctional facility in Chama District;

     (b)  if so, when the plans will be implemented;

     (c)  what the estimated cost of the project is; and

     (d)  what the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma) (on behalf ofthe Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)):Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, has embarked on infrastructure development in the Zambia Correctional Service in order to deliver enhanced humane custodial services to inmates, and to decongest correctional centres. The Government is aware that the lack of correctional facilities in some districts has contributed to congestion in most correctional facilities. The Government plans to construct a modern correctional centre in Chama District.

Madam Speaker, the plans to construct the correctional centre will be implemented when ongoing infrastructure projects at 80 per cent and above are completed, and when funds are made available by the Treasury.

Madam Speaker, the estimated total cost for the construction of the correctional centre in Chama District, which will have a holding capacity of 384 inmates, is 69,000.

Madam Speaker, the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is two years from the date of award of the contract.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo:Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that response.

Madam Speaker, Chama is the oldest district currently in Zambia, which does not have a correctional facility. The situation in Chama is very bad because remandees and all those who have been convicted are supposed to be transferred to Lundazi, and that is very costly for the Government. Is the Government not going to give special preference to Chama because it cannot join the new districts which were just created? Since Chama District was conferred with a district status in 1973, is the hon. Minister not going to give it special treatment instead of it joining the new districts which are just less than five years old?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Mtayachalo for that question.

Madam Speaker, I must correct Hon. Mtayachalo, who said that Chama is the only district without a correctional centre. There are several other districts without correctional centres and one example I can give is that of Manyinga District. So, Chama is not the only one. On the substantive question to give the district preferential treatment, we are giving it preferential treatment by saying that the construction of a correctional centre is on the cards and it will be constructed as soon as the necessary funds are made available. That is preferential treatment on its own. So, we will construct the correctional centre depending on the availability of funds.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Speaker, in response to question (c) as to what the expected cost of the correctional facility is, the hon. Minister stated that the Government will construct the facility, which will have a holding capacity of 384 inmates, at a cost of 69,000. Is it US$69,000, shillings or kwacha?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, it must have been a slip of the tongue and, maybe, my eye sight is failing me. It is K69 million.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I think it is just a comment.The hon. Minister mentioned Manyinga as one of the new districts. I said that Chama was conferred with a district status in 1973 but districts like Manyinga are newly created, and that is why I asked if the Government is not going to consider the oldest districts which were disadvantaged in terms of correctional services?

Madam Speaker: Since it is just a comment, I am sure the hon. Minister has taken note.

Ms Nyirenda(Lundazi): Madam Speaker, the prison facility in Lundazi is pathetic, especially with the influx of inmates from Lumezi and Chama. Some of the cases our people have been incarcerated for are very minor. The next time the President pardons some people, is it possible to consider the inmates sleeping in inhuman conditions? I was in Lundazi last week.

Madam Speaker:The correctional facility is supposed to be constructed in Chama North, unless the hon. Member for Lundazi is telling this honourable House that Lundazi is in Chama District. Otherwise, the question is not related to the main question and it does not qualify to be a supplementary question. However, the hon. Member can put in a question to the hon. Minister directly on that issue, so that we do not expand this question unnecessarily.

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MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON PARASTATAL BODIES

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of your Committee on Parastatal Bodies for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 20^th July, 2020.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! There is so much in the House. We are not following the proceedings. Let us pay attention to what is happening.

Is the Motion seconded?

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, your Committee on Parastatal Bodies considered the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of Parastatal Bodies and Other Statutory Institutions for the Financial Year ended 31^stDecember, 2020.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also undertook local tours to three provinces, namely Lusaka, Central and Copperbelt to conduct spot checks on the operations of sampled state-owned enterprises and other statutory institutions.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that twenty-two entities were captured in the Report of the Auditor-General. As you are aware, state-owned enterprises and other statutory institutions are an effective vehicle for socio-economic development, transforming of the economy and helping the poor escape the vicious cycle of poverty.

Madam Speaker, as the House is aware, the theme for the 2022 Budget is “Growth, Jobs and Taking Development Closer to the People’’. Your Committee believes that the theme resonates very well with the role state-owned enterprises play in the development and transformation of Zambia’s economy. Your Committee strongly believes thatstate-owned enterprises are a critical source of employment, public service provision, socio-economic development and a major player in the provision of non-tax revenue through the declaration of dividends. In light of the foregoing, there is a greater need for state-owned enterprises to be effective and efficient in their operations with particular emphasis –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Those hon. Members who came in late in breach of Standing Orders No. 204 (1) and (2) (a) in particular, you came in late, made noise and disrupted the proceedings, and I saw some hon. Members coming in the House while speaking on the phone. I am warning hon. Members that any Member who comes late will be removed from the House for the day’s sitting and for all intent and purposes, that will not be a sitting. Let us make sure that we follow the Standing Orders.

Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I will start the paragraph again. In light of the foregoing, there is a greater need for state-owned enterprises to be effective and efficient in their operations with particular emphasis on accountability and transparency. It, therefore, goes without saying that your Committee’s scrutiny of the operations of state-owned enterprises is of utmost importance.

Madam Speaker, I am confident that hon. Members have taken keen interest in reading the Committee’s report. In this regard, I will merely underscore some salient points of the report.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that there are sufficient laws and regulations to enhance efficiency in the Public Service.  However, there is extreme inertia and an unacceptable attitude of business as usual among the public officers entrusted with the responsibility of managing parastatal bodies and other statutory institutions.  Your Committee further observes that the Secretary to the Treasury has the mandate to ensure that the laws, regulations and various established guidelines, especially those outlined in the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018, are strictly adhered to in order to ensure efficient management of state-owned enterprises and other statutory institutions. It was further observed with sadness that these laws, guidelines and regulations have not been effectively enforced.

Madam Speaker, in this vein, your Committee strongly recommends that the Secretary to the Treasury must expedite the process of bringing to book all officers found guilty of the failure to ensure effective and efficient management of the entities, in accordance with Section 64 of the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018,and the Auditor-General on the other part must enhance audits of service delivery or in other words performance audits.

Madam Speaker, in light of this, your Committee recommends that, as a matter of urgency and to ensure that the audit process and the oversight function of Parliament is performed effectively, the Government should establish fast track courts to deal with matters of financial misconduct in state-owned enterprises in accordance with the Public Finance Management Act.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes with concern the lack of clear guidance on how parastatal bodies and other statutory institutions should consider Government circulars, vis-a-vis the various establishing Acts of Parliament and the Companies Act No. 10 of 2017.  Your Committee observes that during the period under review, the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) and the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) procured personal to holder vehicles in line with their respective conditions of service and the respective boards of directors’ decision, an act which was contrary to the directive of the Cabinet Circular No.17 of 2016 and the Cabinet Circular No. 1 of 2021, on cost saving measures.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that the Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary to the Cabinet should promptly intervene in the matter and give guidance with regard to adherence to cabinet circulars, in an event that they speak contrary to the establishing Acts and conditions of service for the respective entities. Your Committee further urges the Secretary to the Treasury to give policy guidance on the procurement of personaltoholder vehicles by parastatal bodies.

Madam Speaker, let me now comment on the establishment and operations of the IDC.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the IDC is a limited company, wholly owned by the Government, through the Minister of Finance (Incorporation) Act Chapter 349 of the Laws of Zambia, with the hon. Minister holding one share. 

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the legal framework and the governance practices of the IDC are not in tandem.  Your Committee also observes with concern the lack of a prescriptive tenure of office for the board members of the IDC. Your Committee notes that the President is the appointing authority of the board of the IDC. Further he is the one who determines the tenure of office of the board members. Your Committee takes cognisance of the recommendation in its report for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly to have the President as the Chairperson for the IDC, as well as a political champion to drive the country`s state-owned enterprises reform process in the initial stage of operations for the IDC. In view of this and due to passage of time from the inception of the IDC, your Committee strongly recommends that the composition of the IDC Board be reviewed and that the Executive should consider removing the Office of the President from the IDC Board. This is in order for the IDC to promote good corporate governance.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also observes that Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) plantations are under threat due to mining activities taking place in its plantations, and what is ironic is that mining licences are being issued by the Government in the plantations. Your Committee is perturbed that there seems to be no co-ordination between the ministry responsible for mines and minerals development and the one responsible for lands and natural resources, as the issuance of mining licenses without engaging ZAFFICO is unacceptable. Your Committee, therefore, strongly recommends that the responsible ministries should intervene in the matter and find a progressive solution.

In conclusion, I wish to place on record, your Committee’s indebtedness and gratitude to you, Madam Speaker, for according us the opportunity to serve on this important Committee.  I thank all stakeholders who provided information to your Committee. I further wish to recognise the role played in the proceedings by the Office of the Auditor-General, the Controller of Internal Audit and the Accountant General, without whose assistance the deliberations of your Committee could not have been successfully concluded.

Finally, gratitude is extended to you, Madam Speaker, for your invaluable guidance throughout the deliberations, and the Clerk of the National Assembly and the staff for their professionalism and support to your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr J. Chibuye: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee on Parastatal Bodies, allow me to comment on four issues that have not been covered in his speech.

Madam Speaker, during your Committee’s tour to Lusaka Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited and Lukanga Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited in Central Province, it observed with concern that water utility companies are owed colossal sums of money by Government entities through unpaid utility bills, and these bills are accrued on post-paid meters. It is through the interaction of your Committee that we further observed that most water utility companies as a result are actually now planning to install prepaid meters as a way of forestalling battles with Government entities, with regard to paying for the services rendered to them. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the Government should support the initiative to install prepaid meters, as this will help the companies raise the much-required revenue timely.

Madam Speaker, during the tour of Lukanga Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited in Central Province, your Committee observed with a lot of apprehension the state of affairs at this water utility company. Lukanga Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited is running on one pump to feed 40 per cent of the water consumers in Central Province, including Kabwe. The reason is that the equipment that is there was installed in the First Republic and the pumps were procured in Italy. These pumps have become completely obsolete and, as such, instead of running three pumps at a time, Lukanga Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited is running on one pump. The other two pumps have been stripped to get spare parts to put on one pump to enable it to continue running. This is a serious matter that needs quick attention by the utility company or the ministry.

Madam Speaker, another issue of concern is the lack of a structured mechanism to manage the newly built stadia such as the Levy Mwanawasa Stadium and the Heroes Stadium in Lusaka. Your Committee observed that the current model of managing the stadia is through an ad-hoc committee constituted by staff seconded from various ministries. Various personnel are drawn from various ministries to form a committee to run these stadia. Your Committee recommends that the Executive should as a matter of urgency consider establishing an authority which will be responsible for managing newly built stadia.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also observes with concern that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) performed dismally with respect to the disbursement and collection of loans from the beneficiaries. Your Committee observes that there is a need to review the legal framework governing the operations and management of the CEEC. In view of this, your Committee recommends that the Executive should expedite the process of reviewing the existing legal framework to enhance efficiency in the disbursement and recovery of funds from beneficiaries.

Whilst on the CEEC, Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that there are beneficiaries whose operations are affected by the inefficiencies of the CEEC. Your Committee further observes that an example of such entrepreneurs is the one your Committee toured to see what is happening, and this is Lupola Dairy Company, which applied for a loan from the CEEC. This company did not get the dairy animals that it was supposed to get on time and as such, today, it is struggling to pay back the loan to the CEEC, which your Committee found to be unacceptable and it sided with the company because that was not its fault. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the CEEC should consider restructuring such loans, and where necessary, waive interest charges.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also observed that during the period under review, the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) had income challenges and failed to actualise many of its planned activities. Your Committee further observed that the agency received its funding through the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA), as per the National Road Fund Act No. 13 of 2002. Your Committee noted the agency’s desire to have the Act amended for it to receive funding directly from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, as this will enable the agency receive sufficient funding.

Your Committee, Madam Speaker, observed that the challenge with respect to funding arose because the agency has veered away from its mandate as provided for in Section 4 of the Road Transport and Safety Agency Act No. 11 of 2002, and is instead focusing on enforcement, which is outside its mandate. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the agency should stick to its mandate and that there is no need to amend the National Road Fund Act No. 13 of 2002.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, allow me to join the mover of the Motion to adopt the report of your Committee, in thanking you for according us the opportunity to serve on this important Committee. I also thank the hon. Members of your Committee for affording me the opportunity to second the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to stand before this august House to make some comments on the Motion on the Floor of this House. Before I go any further, I salute the mover and seconder of the Motion for the manner in which they presented this Motion before this august House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Quality!

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, three points caught my attention and I am going to take them spontaneously and deal with them simultaneously.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, these points are, firstly, questionable payments, secondly, the failure to follow the procurement procedure and, thirdly, the failure to prepare the financial year statements.

Madam Speaker, I contemplated over this and why do our officers running parastatal companies fail to prepare a financial year statement? The reason is political interference. There are too many political hands in these institutions.

Madam Speaker, thesecompanies will not go anywhere if the new Government continues doing the same things that the previous Government did.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Let us listen to the debate.

Mr Chala: It is both sides, Madam Speaker. The problem which is there is that if someone is appointed as a director for example for ZESCO Limited, the appointing authority will instruct him/her to get K10 million from that institution. How do you expect the officers without any explanation to write the financial year statement? It is not possible. We can only address this problem if we remove the political hand in these institutions, then they will be able to function properly.

Madam Speaker, this report we are debating on today will still come back in the same manner if the New Dawn Government does not change its style of administration. It needs to look at that and see how it can give those appointed a platform to perform. Those who are appointed must be allowed to perform to the best of their ability, unlike being controlled every time. So, if that is not done, we will continue having this problem. In the past –

Mr Anakoka:The PF.

Mr Chala:Yes, it is a known fact that they were the ones in charge but I am talking about the New Dawn Government.What has it done to protect these institutions? Are the people who replaced those who resigned in these institutions not cadres? The people who are appointed to run these institutions have no idea how some of them run and when they are appointed, it is difficult for them to cope and do what is right.

Madam Speaker, with those many words, not few but many words, I salute your Committee.

Interruptions

Mr Chala:Madam Speaker, I thank you and may God bless you and bless Zambia.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Order!

Hon. Member for Chipili, may God bless you also.

Laughter

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for granting the people of Sikongo this opportunity to add a voice on the Motion on the Floor of this House. I thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion for the able manner in which they debated the Motion.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, allow me to thank your Committee that looked at the accounts of parastatal bodies and other institutions. However, I went through the report, and it is very clear that the report makes sad reading. The findings of the report are not very good and I thank the Auditor-General for what they keep doing year after year, which is bringing out issues in terms of financial management of our national resources.

Madam Speaker, state-owned enterprises play a critical role in as far as the development of this country is concerned, as the mover of the Motion mentioned. Therefore, it is very important that we pay critical attention to the manner in which these institutions operate. However, it is really sad to read that resources are being misappropriated, misapplied and mismanaged. What is even more disappointing is the fact that most of these institutions are making losses but their conditions of service are something else. The employees want to live above their means.

Madam Speaker, in the process of fixing this economy, the New Dawn Administration needs to critically look at the issues affecting the management of parastatal institutions. The people appointed to manage these institutions, either the board or the members of staff, really need to take time to look at how they run the affairs of these institutions. I do not know whether these people are appointed on merit or they have the qualifications to run these institutions, but one thing that comes out is that almost all of them are not performing very well, as if they were born from the same mother.

Madam Speaker, it is important that in the New Dawn Administration –

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Member! Same mother or same father.

Laughter

Mr Simushi: Same father, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker:Proceed.

 

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Administration has started doing things differently, so it is important that it also takes a serious step and does things differently in as far as the management of parastatal institutions is concerned. So, I hope when appointing the boards, it was not done like what our colleagues in the past did where they just picked their friends, relatives and wives and put them on these boards.

Ms Phiri: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, I hope the men and women who were appointed –

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I reluctantly rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. I have been following the debate of the hon.Member and I am trying to put head and tail to his debate. Is he in order to make wild allegations on the Floor of the House by saying that the previous Administration employed or recruited wives and relatives without laying evidence on the Table as the requirement in this august House.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker, before he misleads this House and the people out there.

Madam Speaker: To the extent that the hon. Member who is debating alleged that those who were in the previous Government employed their wives and other people without laying evidence on the Table, he is out of order.

Hon. Member, you may continue debating but, please, debate factually and debate the report.

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, I will endeavour to debate factually. One of the facts is that in the Patriotic Front (PF) Constitution, it is clearly stated that they would appoint party cadres, so party cadres include people who are not qualified.

Madam Speaker:Let us make progress.

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, another point I want to bring to the attention of this House and the country at large is on the operations of our state-owned public institutions like universities. Our universities in this country have many challenges. Sometimes I wonder why they have so many challenges when in actual fact they are supposed to be generating many resources to help manage themselves. For example, at the University of Zambia (UNZA), there is no accommodation for students and the management has challenges paying statutory obligations like terminal benefits, gratuities and so many other monies that are supposed to be paid to the staff.

Madam Speaker, when we went to visit in Zimbabwe, we discovered that universities are now being turned into innovation hubs. So, I feel it is high time our universities started thinking outside thebox in order to generate the much-neededresources for their operations, so that even when some staff members buy big vehicles, no one will point a finger at them. It is not fair to buy big vehicles when you do nothave enough resources to run institutions, but dependon the Government on everything else you do. I think that should be discouraged. So, I urge the men and women in higher institutions of learning to use the knowledge they acquire and to show that they can also perform just like those in other higher institutions of learning in this world.

Madam Speaker, parastatal institutions have so many challenges, and I am alive to the fact that these institutions are aligned to line ministries, and I feel it is a heavy responsibility for hon. Ministers and PermanentSecretaries in these ministries to run these two institutions. I feel parastatal institutions have a very big obligation,mandate, and responsibility. Therefore, I propose that it is important to create a ministry called the Ministry of State-Owned Enterprises so that, maybe, we can see efficiency and effectiveness in the management of parastatalinstitutions, which are so important to the day-to-day running of our country and its economic emancipation.

Madam Speaker, finally, our President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, has a positive vision of this country. It is very clear that he has a vision which if followed to the latter, this country will not bethe same at the end of the next five years. In the next ten years, Zambia will be one of the most developed countries in this world. However, what I see is that our President is far ahead of almost everyone else.

Hon.Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Simushi: So, I propose that state-owned enterprises should pull up their socks so that they can bridge the gap between thevision carrier and themselves, and can help achieve that which our President aspires to see this country become.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, I think we are not looking at the Standing Orders at all.If we did, we would be able to know how to behave when we are in the House. Standing Order 204 (2) (f) and (g) state as follows:

“(f)       A member shall not interrupt another member holding the Floor by making noise or other disorderly expressions;

(g)     a member shall listen in silence to the debates in the House”.

So, please, as we listen, let us be orderly.I do not want to mention any name, but I know who was making noise. So, let us listen. Let us not make noise, and let us comply with the Standing Orders. We made the Standing Orders for ourselves so that we have order, dignity, and decorum in the House.

Hon. Member, you are fond of talking and disputing proceedings, and I am warning you now. Let us make sure that we comply to the Standing Orders. You are laughing; you think it is a joke.

Laughter

Mr Mutaleleft the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according the people of Chama North this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important report.

First and foremost, I commend my brother Hon. Brian Kambita, the Member of Parliament for ZambeziEast, who moved this Motion. I also commend my brother Hon. Chibuye, the Member of Parliament for Roan, for seconding this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I want to be on record as one of the persons who supported the adoption of this report. Your Committee did a good job and it produced a well-detailed report on the performance of our parastatal organisations in this country.

Madam Speaker, a critical analysis of the Auditor-General’s Report reviews that it has exposed serious irregularities in the way our state-owned enterprises have been run from time immemorial. It is unfortunate that year in and year out, the Office of the Auditor-General exposes serious irregularities, or from the time of the One-Party State to date, and successive Governments have not taken radical decisions to overhaul the performance of parastatal organisations so that they can contribute significantly to job creation and the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Unfortunately, most of our parastatal organisations have not scoredsuccess stories because of operational challenges.

Madam Speaker, the other speaker mentioned political interference. We must not beat about the bush, if we are to correct the ills in state-owned enterprises, and we must be able to state what the challenges are. Political interference is the major reason state-owned enterprises are not performing to the expected standard of the people of Zambia.There is incompetency in management structures and a bloated workforce,especially top management structures. Mostly, the appointment ofpeople to the boards is politically driven.We are not appointing people who are able to ensurethat they supervise these parastatal organisations.

Madam Speaker, I always refer to the One-Party State. Although, yes, there was political interference, but I think the appointment of Chief Executive Officers(CEOs) and people in senior management positions was done meticulously. Before someone became a Managing Director of Zambia Railways Limited, ZESCO Limited or the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL), he/she was meticulously scrutinised, but that is not the case nowadays. Therefore, I think the ball is our court to ensure that we appoint people who are well qualified and experienced to run state-owned enterprises. Otherwise, every year, the Auditor-General will be exposing these irregularities.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the Zambia Railways Limited. The report has outlined a numberof challenges our rail system has been facing. The Zambia Railways Limitedcan play a very critical role in Zambia’s economic agenda and contribute significantly to the GDP but, unfortunately, its performance leaves a lot to be desired. During the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, US$50 million from the Eurobond was given to the Zambia Railways Limited. However, the performance of the Zambia Railways Limitedunfortunately leaves a lot to be desired. Its infrastructure is still dilapidated and this is why it is failing to meet its performance indicator of 5 million tonnage per year.

Madam Speaker, the entire rail system is dilapidated, it has rotten hard wood slippers and there are derailments every time, and since people want their copper to be exported as quickly as possible, they do not use it. They would rather usetrucks, and those trucks are damaging our roads. So, it is important that radical measures are taken to ensure that the Zambia Railways Limited modernises its infrastructure if we are to save our roads from the overloaded trucks. Our friends in Tanzania are building a 160km per hour speed train and that is what Zambia must consider doing. Ethiopia is also building a 160 km per hour train from Addis Ababa to Djibouti. Why can we not do that as a country? So, we need to transform our railway system.

Madam Speaker, the other debater talked about personal emoluments, gratuities and so on and so forth. The wage bill for state-owned enterprises is too heavy and that is why these companies are failing to breakeven. So, the way forward is that we appoint people who are competent to run these companies. Let us depoliticise state-owned enterprises and let us strengthen the internal audit controls. If we strengthen the internal audit controls, I think we will lessen the job done by the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Speaker, I also want to comment on the Judiciary. Delayed justice is justice denied. The report has explained that 948 positions were vacant, but even after the Treasury gave the Judiciary authority, it has not filled all the positions except 171, and this is also creating a backlog of cases. People are in remand prisons, so, it is important that the Ministry of Justice moves in and ensures that these positions are filled in as quickly as possible.

Madam Speaker, finally, I want to talk about the judges. The report talked about the deplorable state of judges’ houses. It is my prayer, and let us try by all means to ensure that we make our judges comfortable so that they can continue to disperse justice timely.

I thank you, Madam Speaker, and I support this Motion.

Mr Wamunyima(Nalolo): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the good people of Nalolo to contribute to this debate. First of all, I thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Kambita, and the seconder, Hon. Chibuye. I also commend the Republican President for meeting the heads of parastatals yesterday. I followed those deliberations carefully and they spoke to what this report talks about.

Madam Speaker, I was surprised to learn from the report that a former District Commissioner who was appointed as the Chairperson of the Bangweulu Water Transport Board, acted as an accountant, and was paid an acting allowance. This is horrific because if we have such kind of behaviour in parastatals, then, we cannot move forward as a country.

Madam Speaker, indeed, I commend your Committee for doing a tremendous job. However, it should have also gone further to encourage the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to procure adequate safes for Government institutions like the Judiciary because of the failure to bank or account for resources, and in the report, it is stated that these institutions do not have adequate safes. Therefore, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in the 2023 Budget must adequately finance the procurement of safes and the Department of Internal Audits so that we reduce on having cases after the fact. The Department of Internal Audits in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is not adequately funded to sustain the operations of internal auditors.

Madam Speaker, I am surprised that thirty-three companies under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) have been failing to declare dividends, and that twenty-nine companies are bankrupt. The IDC Board under the current legal framework is chaired by the President, and it is failing to provide audited reports. Your Committee recommended that this board should not be chaired by the President and I agree with that recommendation. If the board is not providing audited financial reports and is chaired by the President, who is failing to ensure that that is done? Therefore, your Committee recommends the correct thing, which is that we must depoliticise institutions.

Madam Speaker, on the appointment of boards, we need to begin discussing that board positions be advertised because if we were to ask that the Curricula Vitae (CVs) of some of the people being appointed on the boards be laid here, you will see that there is no reason someone should sit on the board. I know it is painful to suggest some things but if we are to restore sanity in parastatals, we must have competent office bearers. Therefore, an additional proposal from your Committee’s proposal is that, in future, the Executive must look at addressing appointments of board members by way of advertising. That should be the set criterion so that people apply, they are interviewed and are appointed.

Madam Speaker, in this country, some people who were recently appointed to be on boards of parastatals are over eighty years old. This is a frank discussion that we must have and someone’s competence should relate to the board. I sat on your Committee and I opposed the ratification of some appointments. The qualifications of some people who have been appointed on boards up to today have not been found and I am able to substantiate that.

Madam Speaker, the country currently depends on the interface between the parastatals and the private sector. Therefore, the discussion of economic emancipation should not be one sided. The efficiencies of a Government are dependent upon the competences of controlling officers, including controlling officers in parastatals. For example, we cannot have a situation in which the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) signed a contract and has been paying interest on a contract but the contract does not provide for interest and there is a legal person at the NCZ, and this is why we are talking about the depoliticisation of parastatals.

Madam Speaker, in the Judiciary, 948 vacancies have not been filled and this is unfortunate. I urge the New Dawn Government to address these issues, and we have seen that it has begun addressing them. Like I said, the President met the heads of parastatals, which is a good step and we commend him for providing and showing the political will to have direct involvement in the functions of the parastatals.

Madam Speaker, it is surprising that an institution like the IDC which even as I debate here – I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who has a very monumental task to make the companies operating under the IDC to understand that it is their responsibility to generate income for the Government and not the other way round. Therefore, we will give support and, indeed, political will where it is required.

Madam Speaker, at Mongu Trades School, K25,000 was not banked and it disappeared, and I do not know whether it ruptured. However, these are some of the cases that we have in our parastatals because of poor corporate governance policies.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I urge the New Dawn Government, through the various ministries that oversee the parastatals, that controlling officers appointed to the parastatals must undergo adequate training on the Public Finance Management Act of 2018 and the Procurement Act of 2020 because these two Acts seem to be in contention in terms of the operations of parastatals.

Madam Speaker, thank you very much.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Kabwe Central an opportunity to add a voice to the Motion before the House moved by Hon. Kambita and seconded by the seconder of the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of Parastatal Bodies and other Statutory Institutions of your Committee on Parastatal Bodies.

Madam Speaker, although most of the points that I wanted to bring on board have been raised, let me mention that we have a challenge in Zambia. We thank God for the New Dawn Government because most of the boards are credible. However, going forward, we need to make sure that the boards take the initiative of appraising the managers and directors. We need to make sure that their performance is checked and we evaluate what they would have done at the end of the year. Are these institutions giving dividends to the country or milking the country? It is very important that that is established so that if a director is not performing, then, we change him. We cannot let some institutions to go under and not to perform even to the point of laying off workers because this is very unacceptable. So, it is very important to check what the managers are doing. We know that parastatal bodies are supposed to generate sustainable jobs and contribute to the National Treasury, but as I said, what we are seeing is that these institutions are milking the National Treasury, which is not acceptable, because of management problems.

Madam Speaker, on the boards that we have in Zambia, when appointing the directors and board members, the people appointing them should make sure that these people have an entrepreneurial spirit because if a manager has no entrepreneurial spirit, the institution will definitely go under. Let me give an example of Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company, which has major problems. Being an entrepreneur, I know that it can diversify. We have faecal matter, I am sorry to say that, so why can we not come up with biogases and bioelectricity? Why should the company just provide water, yet it has a problem of leaking pipes? It is making losses because the pipes are leaking and its management is not so active. The public reports about pipe bursts everyday but the management is sleeping. We cannot afford to have people run parastatals like that. We need to up the game. The boards and other Government institutions empowered to look at how these people are performing need to perform. Some parastatal companies are going under because of their management, and some people mentioned that sometimes, it is because of appointing people who are not fit, who might be relatives or politically inclined. That is a very big disease and we need to make sure that we cartel it.

Madam Speaker, I want to again emphasise on appraising people, and I will refer to Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company. How is the performance of its management? We have a big challenge and you can imagine the whole province surviving on one pump. That is a time bomb and our mothers are suffering. The company cannot extend water reticulation services to other compounds because of the leakages, and this is the biggest problem. So, we need to emphasise on performance now. We want people to be up to the game to make sure that these companies are profitable.

Madam Speaker, we cannot afford to go back to the Government to say that we want to recapitalise, but, of course, as of now, Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company needs money to recapitalise. In the state it is in, it is calling on people to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to carry out water reticulation works in the whole district but we cannot manage that. We need the Government to come on board, and going forward, we need to strictly make sure that these people perform and are not just there for leisure. Of course, they go out of the country and they spend Government money to see what is happening in other countries, but when they come back, nothing happens and money just goes to waste. However, we need to make sure that at least something is done.

Madam Speaker, there are leakages in the whole of Kabwe or you will find leakages in every compound and we cannot proceed on that trajectory. It is a time bomb. This is a call and I know our able Minister is aware and he has heard. I know that he has plans for us, but going forward, what we are emphasising is that management needs to be checked.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Kambita, and the Independent Member of Parliament for Roan, Hon. Chibuye.

Madam Speaker, the first issue I want to comment on before I quickly talk about the report is that it is very important that we enhance Information and Communication Technology (ICT) capabilities and platforms in some of the parastatals as well as state-owned enterprises to ensure that there is effective collection of revenue, which also improves their capacity and capabilities.

Madam Speaker, the report which has been tabled, which is a very good report, talks about the review of internal controls in most of the parastatals. This is very important because internal controls are highly emphasised by internal auditors who are the first line of defence in every institution to ensure that there is good accountability, good governance and utilisation of public resources.

Madam Speaker, the propensity for every nation to develop requires political will. If there is political will, then, we can develop as a nation. As Zambians, we need to have a paradigm shift in how we think and look at issues. I heard my hon. Colleagues who debated before me mention that there are cadres in some of the parastatals and this is also an issue of mindset. If we have a progressive mindset, we will ensure that we are accountable for what is brought before us, being officers who are accountable as controlling officers on the behalf of the Zambian people, because out of the many Zambians, we have been conferred with such a duty.

Madam Speaker, let me comment on page five of the report, on the non-operation of a vessel under the Ministry of Transport and Logistics, and that is the Bangweulu Water Transport. We heard that the board had no capacity to raise revenue to ensure that it continues operating because a board is a strategic organ of every parastatal or state-owned institution.

Madam Speaker, your Committee highlighted the failure of some parastatals to remit the Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) Tax, yet they have continued operating. The same parastatals failed to insure boats, dredgers and vessels. These are some of the assets which are procured using public resources at very high premiums, and it is important and imperative that they are insured in case of any accidents.

Madam Speaker, let me also comment on the issue of the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), which has been highlighted in the good report by your Committee on Parastatal Bodies, on the inclusion of the security of tenure of office for the BoZ Governor as stipulated in the Constitution of Zambia Amendment Act No.2 of 2016. This needs to be domesticated because the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Model Law has been mentioned to that effect, which is a very good model law and a public financial management model law, but it needs to be explicitly outlined, to ensure that it is domesticated and the clause is put into effect.

Madam Speaker, under the BoZ, there are many performance issues. There are acidic ratios, liquidity ratios and tables have been outlined on the performance of the BoZ, which is our Central Bank. It is important that the BoZ is supported on the issue of autonomy to ensure that it operates without political interference.

Madam Speaker, let me moveto the issue of the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZAMPOST). I stand to be corrected, but I believe it is under liquidation and has many staff related matters, and I come from Ndola District where some of its workers knockat our doors. Issues of the failure to submit statutory obligations amounting to K1.3 million and outstandinggratuity payments of K167 million have been highlighted in this good report.

Madam Speaker, I will be failing in my duties if I do not comment on the issueof the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), and all parastatals remit K2.5 million, if I am not mistaken, every month to the IDC. However, the IDC is failing to produce consolidated financial statements, which are very important toascertain the performance of some parastatal companies, to see those that are viable, where the Government needs to put money, and those that can probably be privatised because they are not making business sense. So, it is important that the Government starts looking at some of these companies as a business and not just business as usual.

Madam Speaker, the lack of a prescribedtenure of office of the IDC Board is another issue that has been highlighted by your Committee to ensure that the President being the Chairperson of the IDC, that ceases to happen. When the IDC fails even to produce financial statements, the Chairperson of that Committee fails to produce financial statements.

Madam Speaker, let me quickly comment on the weaknesses in the management of brown field projects by the IDC such as Munushi Fruit Company Limited, Kawambwa Tea Industries Limited, Kalene Hills Fruit Company and also the irregular acquisition of companies such as Superior Milling Company Limited. It is important that a credit department looks at some of these issues before the Government makes some of these huge investments because it is dealing with public money and resources for the Zambian people, and one example of a loss-making company that I can cite is Zampalm Limited.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely as I support this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:As we debate, please, let us avoid being repetitious.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on parastatal bodies.I wish to convey my gratitude to the mover and the seconder of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the issue of parastatal bodies has been a thorny issue in every successful Government and, today, it has still proved to be a cancer to the New Dawn Government. For as long as there will be no professionalism in the parastatal bodies, we will be seeing managers, directors and controlling officers being replaced each time there is a change of Government.

Madam Speaker, parastatal bodies should be devoid of political inclination and they should run professionally. Today, we have seen regionalist, nepotistic and political appointments happening in parastatal bodies.

Interruptions

Mr Twasa:Madam Speaker, I will give you an example –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, as you debate, bear in mind that this report relates to the financial year ended 31^st December, 2020. So, bear that in mind as you debate.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, that is exactly what I am referring to. In the latter years or two years ago, some directors in some parastatal bodies would say that imwebaichetuchinjekoubuteko ba PFbayasana meaning young men and woman, let us change Government, it is too much of the Patriotic Front (PF). Last year, as soon as the New Dawn Government came into power, it looked at those directors with political eyes and they are no more. They were fired simply because they were appointed by the PF Government. We see these things happening.

Madam Speaker: Order!

On what page is that hon. Member?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Which page of the report are you debating? Let us be relevant. Stick to the report.

Mr Twasa:On appointments, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:On what page?

Interruptions

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. Let me continue.

Madam Speaker, I commend the President for creating a very good and progressive ministry, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. If this ministry is to work well, it must engage all the parastatal bodies. What we have seen is that parastatal bodies do not support small and medium enterprises (SMEs). How? We have seen SMEs supplying goods to parastatal bodies using their hard-earned income and some of them even use their houses as collateral, but it takes years for them to be paid. Therefore, I appeal to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development to engage the parastatal bodies so they can trade and operate professionally, so that the vision that the President has expulsed in this new Government of creating a new ministry is achieved.

Madam Speaker, one of the speakers on your right confirmed and confessed that the President is far much ahead of his Administration, which is very unfortunate. I hope it will pull up its socks and work together with the President.

MadamSpeaker: Order!

Hon. Member, stick to the report. Your debate so far has not referred to anything in the report. There is nowhere where the report is talking about the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises Development. So, be relevant hon. Member and I do not want to interrupt you. Let us be relevant to what is being discussed on the Floor of the House.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, we are discussing how parastatal bodies operate, and how we want them to operate professionally. Our appeal is that even as they operate professionally, they work to help run the Government of the day. Once parastatal bodies fail to perform to their expectation, this affects the Administration in power at that particular time, and that is what I am emphasising.

Why am I saying so, Madam Speaker? We may try to avoid debating these things in this House, but this is what is happening out there. I have met so many people, especially young women, who supplied goods to parastatal bodies. Just because the people they were dealing with in those parastatal bodies were fired, they have also been removed from the list of suppliers because they have been looked at as people who were affiliated to the former Government.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Do you have evidence?

Mr Twasa: Therefore, Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker:Order, hon. Member!

I am referring you to Standing Order No. 65. Your debate should be factual and verifiable. Do you have any evidence that you can lay on the Table of this House to confirm what you are saying?

Mr Twasa:Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I do not have any written evidence, but this is as a result of the interaction I have had with the people.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: That is not –

Mr Twasa: That being the case, Madam Speaker, I withdraw that statement. However, I wish to state that we need to be factual and realistic, otherwise, we will just be burying our heads in the sand. So, as we go about our business, some of these things are real and we need to pay attention to them.

My emphasis, Madam Speaker, was on how parastatal bodies should operate and be managed. How I wish the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Developmentcan closely with parastatal bodies, especially when it comes to SMEs that take years to be paid. That is my greater concern.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I support the Motion. I am not going to take much of your time.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. OppositionMembers: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): I am grateful to you, Madam Speaker, for allowing the people of Kamfinsa Constituency to add a few comments on the issue on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, you have ably guided that we should not repeat what has already been alluded to, and I do not intend to repeat what has already been discussed in this House. I will quickly take the august House to page 236, where your Committee summarised three important aspects, under conclusion of the report of the Chairperson and his team. They made three observations and allow me to refer to them quickly. The first observation is that there is a lack of clear defined performance targets and monitoring mechanisms. Secondly, there is a lack of an oversight system, which has teeth to perform effectively, and the third observation by your Committee is that there is a lack of a medium-term performance benchmark and ineffective traction of activities.

Madam Speaker, this summarises what we are discussing today. I have picked about thirteen items from the report which if I started referring to item by item, it will still bring us back to what has been put in the conclusion. The questions we must ask ourselves arising from that observation is: How do we ensure, for instance, that, firstly, we have defined performance targets? That is what we should be discussing. Secondly, how do we ensure that we have the correct oversight systems? That is what we should be discussing. Thirdly, we should be discussing how we can ensure that we have medium-term performance targets.

Madam Speaker, I believe this report has to be utilised by the Government to improve systems. If we are going to start analysing who appoints members of the boards – you will agree with me that, currently, the different Acts of Parliament give powers to hon. Ministers to appoint board members and then board members employ those who run institutions of the Government. At utility companies, it is the hon. Minister who appoints the boards. At the Ministry of Energy, it is the hon. Minister who appoints the boards. These are conversations we can continue having, but ultimately, the three things that your Committee picked are things that we need to address, and once addressed, these negative reports will be minimised.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. To start with, let me join all the other hon. Members of Parliament in thanking the mover of the Motion, Hon. Kambita, and the seconder, Hon. Chibuye. We all agree that this report has been very well-presented and it had a practical approach in capturing what parastatal bodies have been going through.

Madam Speaker, let me present my observations. First of all, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) Governor’s tenure of office has always been a hot matter. From the economic side, or indeed from the position of financial markets, the voices of the Central Bank Governor or the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning or the President are usually quite influential voices. At times, because of the independence of the Central Bank, it does not agree with the Government especially on the fiscal space and, indeed, certain investments that the Government wants to make. So, this is quite progressive.

Madam Speaker, I also want to talk about the importance of the position of Chairperson for the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC). Looking at the performance of parastatal companies, quite clearly, they do not reflect well in terms of financial performance. In 2017, I remember there was an aspiration, when the IDC was actually put up, that over 1 million jobs were expected to be created and that there would be innovation amongst parastatal companies. However, what we have seen over the last five years, from 2017 to date, is that these companies are still failing to meet statutory obligations and they are failing to pay taxes, which obviously does not advantage the Treasury.

Madam Speaker, we have also seen water utility companies still getting grants from the Government and taxpayers’ money being put into businesses. How can it be that as a resident of an area, you are paying your water bill, and at the same time from the tax that you are contributing, the water utility company is being given money to run? So, there is a need for the Government to overhaul the approach in terms of how these companies should run so that we can create jobs and the much-needed wealth can come from parastatal companies.

Additionally, Madam Speaker, although we are not talking about the mining sector, even under the mining sector, we do not collect dividends from all the companies that we have shareholding in. Some, for over twenty years, we have not collected any dividends. So, this is an indication that the New Dawn Government has an opportunity to turn around the performance and the contributions of parastatal companies.

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about an issue that has become very prevalent on the boards that have been appointed particularly in the New Dawn.

Madam Speaker, you have seen for yourself how some board chairmen have been fighting to be on television, in particular on the Sunday Interview on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), trying to discuss how parastatal companies or a certain institution should function. I think there is a need for the Government to do what it did yesterday, to call the boards that have been selected to a meeting to try and advise them and to provide, particularly to the board chairmen and chairwomen, their terms of reference. I am happy that the President yesterday even mentioned that some are looking for Toyota VXs, drivers and allowances, as though they are executive board members or executive board chairmen, and they are doing this without other board members knowing. I know of at least two companies where the board chairman has to be there for a payment to be made. This is very unfortunate. They have usurped the powers of the controlling officers. So, how are parastatal companies going to perform going forward?

Madam Speaker, I think we are all in agreement that parastatal companies’ failure will not support the private sector. We expect the private sector to create jobs and wealth, but we also have our own baby to deal with, which are the parastatal companies. It is sad to see the performance of the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL), yet it is the owner of telecommunication infrastructure and it is failing to make any profits.It is surviving on Government support, yet Airtel Zambia and MTN Zambia which are in the same market are doing far much better and are contributing to the tax base of our country and creating jobs.So, it is important that the Government seriously looks into the performance of parastatal companies.

Madam Speaker, I support the report and I hope that the Government will quickly take it into consideration so that jobs can be created and taxes can be paid. This will enable we, the Zambians, have a breather in terms of paying higher taxes because we now know that so many of these companies will be paying taxes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, I thank the mover, Hon. Kambita, and the seconder of this Motion, Hon. Chibuye.

Madam Speaker, my comments will be a little bit different from all the comments that have been made by the hon. Members. When I was going through this report, what first came into my mind was the calibre of our technocrats in Zambia because parastatals are run by the technocrats. It does not matter if they are politically appointed because these people have qualifications. Members of theIndustrial Development Corporation (IDC)are all qualified people. Now, looking at the performance of the parastatals, the question we should ask is: What kind of technocrats do we have in Zambia and how possible is it that going forward, there will be a difference? It is good that the President yesterday had a meeting with these people and he highlighted what he expects from them. However, how possible is it that this time, these people will be able to deliver?

Madam Speaker, when the parastatals were established, they were doing well. Have we tried to get to a point where we need to look at where we went wrong? We have not looked at that angle and those are some of the things I would have loved to see because these reports will be brought year after year. Today, we are talking about the report of 2020 and I am sure the report of 2021 will soon be presented and I know it will be the same.I will pick on Zambia Railways Limited and, today, if you went to Zambia Railways Limited, the mistakeswe see in the report for 2020 have really affected the company to an extent where it does not even know what tomorrow will be.

Madam Speaker, I think the most important thing we need to look at is getting back to the basics. Let us get back to the basics.It is simple as that. If those basics worked, let us get back to them. Whatam I trying to say? We have ignored specialisation in Zambia because we feel that as long as somebody has a degree from the Universityof Zambia(UNZA), then he/she can do anything. Do you think somebody who has a degree in plumbing can be a good doctor? Not at all. Let us get to the basics. Let us get to a point where we need to see that a person has experience in a certain field to run a company.

Madam Speaker, right now, parastatals have been damaged because a person with a degree from UNZA would be given a big position as a director in a company without even understanding how to run it, which is totally wrong. Industries are totally different and the Zambia Railways Limited is a unique industry. Parastatals are like a field of maize where monkeys just jump from one maize to another. The same people run the parastatals. Today, somebody will mess up at ZESCO Limited and, tomorrow, wewill hear he is appointed at Zambia Railways Limited. Again, he will mess up there and we will hear he is at Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL) and the responsible ministries should look at this critically.We cannot have the same people messing these companies, jumping from one company to another causing problems and you think we are going to make a difference, no. If we have identified the mistakes, from now onwards, let us do things differently. We cannot be doing things the same way and expect different results; not at all.

Madam Speaker, if theNew Dawn Government will continue on the same path that its friends passed, it means the results will be the same. I emphasise that responsible ministries should make sure that they appoint the right people. Even if you do not like that person and you are enemies, but he/she has the capacity to run a company, appoint that person.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker:Let us observe the rules. Hon. Member for Mkushi South,I thought you wanted to debate.  You are not debating. That is the problem of debating while seated. The hon. Member for Mwandi.

Laughter

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing the people of Mwandi to add a voice to the debate on this very important report.

 Madam Speaker, I thank the mover, Hon. Kambita, and the seconderof the Motion. I also thank the hon. Member for Chipili for that very nice debate ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: ... and for acknowledging that everything that we are debating today in this report was up to 2020 and we know whose tenure that was. So, I thank the hon. Member for Chipili for that apolitical debate.

Madam Speaker, as we are debating this report, we are looking at what the Patriotic Front (PF) did, but the wise learn from the mistakes of the others. Like I indicated, I thank the hon. Member of Chipili for actually acknowledging –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hoursto 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, I will continue from where I left off.

Madam Speaker, in your Committee’s report, among the many other things that have been highlighted are huge variances between budgets and what is being spent. We have also read about altered receipts. We have also heard of the failure to obey statutory regulations, to prepare financial statements and to take care of already existing infrastructure. On the last one, I will give examples of Nkana Water and Sewerage Company, LukangaWater Supply and Sanitation Company Limited and the Levy Mwanawasa Stadium. You will agree with me that all these things happened at the time that our friends were in power. However, what will the New Dawn Government do? This is the leakage and the New Dawn Government should make sure it strengthens internal controls in the parastatals. The thriving of parastatals should be guarded by internal controls.

 

Madam Speaker, we have seen and observed with dismay that some directors or Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) of parastatals in Zambia failed within our country, but the moment they were appointed out there, you realise that they thrive. Then we ask ourselves: Where is the problem? It is the same thing that we spoke about, which is political interference, that we realise is happening in these organisations and I will echo the words of the other hon. Member who said that there is just too much political interference. For instance, public officers can easily be instructed to get K10 million and take it elsewhere, without any accountability whatsoever. We saw during the 2021 elections the way Zambians guarded their votes. It should be the same way that Zambians should guard these resources because they belong to the Zambian people, and we should make sure that we guard them.

Madam Speaker, let me now come to the issue of boards. As I sat in this House one day, I heard someone say that there are many old people on these boards. In this regard, I want to refer to the visitors we had recently in this House. I was very pleased with the composition of the Italian delegation. I saw that it was a mixture of the young and old. So, even when we appoint people to sit on the boards of parastatals, we should not neglect the experience that old people have. Therefore, I commend the New Dawn Government for making sure that it mixes the two; the old and young. Whether we like it or not, the old ones have the experience that we also need.

Madam Speaker, we hope that in the near future when we will be looking at the reports that will be done under the New Dawn Government, we will not see the things that were happening under the Patriotic Front (PF). With that said, the people of Mwandi submit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I now call the last speaker, the hon. Member for Chasefu. Hon. Member for Mpika, you had withdrawn and I replaced you with the hon. Member for Kasenengwa. So, unfortunately, you will not debate.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Chasefu an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this important report. I also thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Kambita, and the seconder, Hon. Chibuye from Roan.

Madam Speaker, I went through the report and what I have in mind is just the same as what other hon. Members belaboured to comment on and added their voices on this important report.

Madam Speaker, one question that comes to mind is why do we have such challenges in parastatals and the economy of our country? We are looking at the 2020 report, and I am sure the great ones who have been there before me looked at the reports for 2018 and 2019 and debated with better language than myself, but the trend continues. Why do we have such a situation in our country and what is the cure?

Madam Speaker, I have hope that we have a new Government. My prayer is that the new Government and the President of this Republic, President Hakainde Hichilema, the Commander-in-Chief ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: ... will continue what they are doing and I encourage the President to bring sanity to this nation.

Madam Speaker, this is the only country where people who loot resources are celebrated. We cannot transform the nation if we celebrate wrongdoers, whether in parastatals or any institution. There should always be a new start. I will not point at what happened in the past because it is common knowledge and in the ears of every Zambian. Is that what we want as a nation? Does it benefit the people of Chasefu and Zambia? The answer is no.I have seen that the report focuses on strengthening – the report talks about the review of the internal controls. I want to state a fact that many great ones in this country even made suggestions, and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is here, to elevate a certain position to the position of Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet. All that was meant to ensure that we reduce on the revelations of plundering and the lack of accountability in the system.

Madam Speaker, my point is that what we are lacking in this nation is discipline and order. We can talk about educated people being employed, and to me, education is relative. Why do I say so? The great leaders we had in this country during the First Republic had basic education, but things were better than what is happening now. We talk about people having Doctors of Philosophy (PHDs) and the most experienced people being employed, but things are degenerating every day,and there is misapplication and misuse of resources for the poor Zambians. I encourage the New Dawn Government to put its foot down on all those who looted resources in this country ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: ... and it should make sure that is the starting point.

The moment you hit them, it will deter would-be wrong doers. If you do not hammer those who misfired,those you are employing today will think that looting resources is the order of the day. This country needs change and change for the better.

Madam Speaker, as politicians, we owe the people of Zambia better leadership. I did not come to this House to see wrong doers being celebrated. With my conscious, why would I support those who looted? Am I a normal Zambian?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, if I am a clean person, I should not be followed. This rot has gone into parastatals and all the systems, and there is moral decay. We need to bring ethical behaviour in the systems and that can only happen if we encourage our President. He needs encouragement. The type of leadership that we should bring to this country is not one where we used to celebrate and clap for people who were looting.

Madam Speaker, at the councils, the internal auditors who were employed had good papers but they would fail to guard the system or say this is not a supported payment and it would pass, and we saw people in this country amass wealth overnight.

Madam Speaker, parastatals preside over the affairs of the poor people, and I will give an example of institutions like pension institutions. A poor Zambian who was contributing is languishing at the railway station but look at the lavish life, vehicles and the conditions of service of the executivesin those institutions, and then we are watching. Tomorrow when they are found wanting, we celebrate them and they cry that they have been fired because of political affiliation; it is not true.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, hon. Members on both the left and right should agree that those who stole should be hammered so that tomorrow, we have a new beginning. I was in the trade union and once worked for the council, and I am one of those who has come to this House to make a difference. I do not mind what you say but the right thing should be done for Zambia. We are Zambians; let us look at our country. Our President needs support. With those words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Let us make progress.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity to deliberate on the report delivered by Hon. Brian Kambita, the Member of Parliament for Zambezi East, and my brother Hon. Chibuye, the Member of Parliament for Roan.

Madam Speaker, as I debate, I will be very illustrative. One President yesterday while addressing parastatal headssaid do not make tax payers’ money a source of your luxury. That is what he said as he was addressing the parastatal heads and board chairpersons of these particular institutions. Three years ago, another president said ubomba mwibalaalya mwibala.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, therein lies the difference between what we are doing now and what used to happen before.

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s objectives were to identify the irregularities –

Madam Speaker: Order! For those of us who do not understand, what does ubomba mwibala mean?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I apologise. One President three years ago while addressing a similar gathering said ubomba mwibala alya mwibala but do not eat the seed. It means if you work in a maize field or any field, you must feed from there but do not just eat the seed. Therein lies a difference because, Mr Hichilema, the President of the Republic of Zambia, when addressing the parastatal heads, his Cabinet, and those who are like minded like him has been very emphatic that if you cross the line of the law, you will be on your own. That is what he said; that is his state of mind.

Madam Speaker, this report obviously generates a lot of anxiety and worry because it is filled with the failure to observe procurement procedures, the failure to repair machineries and the use of private printed receipts. How do you account when you use private receipts and not those that are done by the Government? Let me be quick to say that, soon and very soon, the difference will be seen.

Madam Speaker, in Uganda, when the Public Accounts Committee is sitting, normally, there is a prosecutor and a policeman outside the door, so that if a parastatal head is found wanting for the failure to account for public money, he/she is taken from the committee room and is straight away arrested for onward prosecution. We do not want to go that route. However, it is suffice for me to say that our President has been very clear about the restoration of order in our country and it is my clarion call to all hon. Members of this House that –

Madam Speaker, previously, when one had malaria, one would take quinine, but now one takes chloroquine and fansidar. Although those pills are bitter, the result is good. If you ignore malaria as the case was under the previous regime, where it became institutional for cadres in every institution, and I mean just that – An Inspector General of Police was seen waving a Patriotic Front (PF) symbol like this (Mr Nkombo waved a PF symbol) and society had degenerated and became a preserve for the chosen few.

Madam Speaker, I heard arguments from colleagues that the appointments that are happening are based on nepotism, tribalism and cadreism. No. It must be known, here and now, that like minds employ like minds. You have to share the same aspirations. As you see me now here, I am a Minister, privileged so. I cannot go and get a person who believes in totally different ideals from my party and give him/her a position of influence. That would be suicidal. This is how subversion begins.

Madam Speaker, I heard Hon. Mtayachalo’s argument that in Tanzania, they are erecting a railway line for a train that will be moving at 160 km per hour. Yes, that is Tanzania.For you to understand where you are going, it is called the future. For you to understand where you are, it is called the present. For you to deal with these two, you must understand the past, which is where you are coming from.

Madam, we have a debt mountain of K20 million.How on earth can anyone think that we can start spending money on a railway line? We know that six or seven years ago, the former Government got US$120 million and put it into this railway line, which they are now condemning because the hon. Member who talked about the defunct railway line is from the Opposition Patriotic Front (PF). They are the ones who borrowed the US$120 million, so he is a victim of the very song he sung.We have to prioritise everything that we are doing.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Transport and Logisticshas a deadline to meet and he just came back from abroad and he is trying to get that railway line functional yet again. I have said this before, and I will say it again, never mistake quietness for a weakness and loudness for strength. Never do that. You will see the results.The hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics disembarked from an aeroplane this afternoon. He had gone on a tour of duty to deal with the very issue of Zambia Railways Limited that the hon. Member, whose party damaged it, lamented about.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: That is the definition of being a victim of the dununareverse song you sung, and you became a victim of the same. Let me move on, Madam.

Madam Speaker, who does not know that in 2011 when the PF Government came into power, it found a running contract with Sinohydro Zambia Limited? Institutional memory is very important. I was the Chairman of theCommittee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism for a long time in this Parliament. When Dr Rupiah Banda, may his soul rest in peace, went to do the ground-breaking for the Kafue Gorge Lower Power Station, these were not there (pointing at hon. PF Members). However, when they came, they cancelled the contract temporally and re-contracted Sinohydro Zambia Limited for an exorbitant amount of money, much more than what the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) Government had negotiated.So, who is fooling who here?

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Those are facts of life. They re-profiled the arrangement around Sinohydro Zambia Limited, stopped it for a couple of months, and went and renegotiated for a price which was nearly double. Who is fooling who? Where did the money go? This is what we say when we talk about accountability.

Madam, the irregular acquisition of Superior Milling Company Limited is in this report. Your Committee told us that the party that just left the Government decided to acquire the entire Superior Milling Company Limited on account that it wanted to stabilise the price of mealie meal in this country. Who said one small milling plant can change the price of mealie meal in this country? They did not stop there, these ones here (pointing to the left).

Laughter

Mr Nkombo:Do you know what they did, Madam? They went and even squandered more money under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) to procure solar milling plants. Tell me of one solar milling plantwhich is working today?They are white elephants. So, as we debate, let us not just debate in order for our voices to be heard. We must bring out facts and facts have no disguise. The whole point is that we have gone past that era and we are now in a new era. We are matching forward. If I were them, I would concede and say the route that you are taking may just be the right route, how do we find space in order to be accommodated for the greater good of the people of Zambia because those are the ones we are serving. The whole idea of being stiff-necked and saying, ifwetuleyafyeuku, olochibeshani, we are just going this way, is what I call illusions.

Madam, I want to conclude by saying that in 2023 and 2024, you will observe that the trendwill start to change around this year in and year out production of these reports without action.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. GovernmentMembers:Hear, hear!

The Minister of Financeand National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank your Committee led by Hon. Kambita, for the report that they have laid in front of us.

Madam Speaker, the audit of public–

Mr Kampyongo:On a point of order,Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, your Committees render reports, which reports are very clear, and the matters highlighted in the reports are all clear. Let me declare interest. I am a Member of this very important Committee. I listened to the hon. Minister of Local Governmentand Rural Development and it appears it is now a trend by the hon. Ministers in the New Dawn Government to veer off the reports when we are supposed to get responses, which will go on record.

Madam Speaker, was the hon. Minister in order to debate matters that are not contained in the report, and that are not factual such as the issue he raised about the Kafue GorgeLower Power Station? He made presentations that he cannot lay on the Table to verify and back his statements. We need to preserve the integrity of this august House. It is interesting to politick, and we can all politick. We have the capacity to politick but weare guided on how we should deal with matters. Was the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development in order to veer off the report and to debate matters of his own creation, which matters he cannot verify in this august House?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members:Ubomba mwibala!

Madam Speaker: Order!

From where I am seated –

Mr Kampyongo:Ebalebomba mwibala ababeneukuchilanaimwe.

Madam Speaker:If you will debate while seated, I think it renders my ruling of no value.

From where I am seated, I heard the hon. Minister respond to the issues that were raised by hon. Members in their debate. I do not know whether the issue aboutSinohydro ZambiaLimited in Kafue Gorge is public knowledge,but being a Minister, I am sure he has privileged information on what transpired.The issue of the Kafue Gorge Lower Power Station is not in the report, maybe, that one can be dealt with. However, the hon. Minister was giving examples of how things were happening. So, let us not go through that.We have made a lot of progress debating this report.

Hon. Ministers, as you debate, please,stick to the report.

May the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning proceed.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the audit of parastatal bodies and other statutory institutions is an annual opportunity for the Treasury to ascertain the level of public finance management and to provide space for recommendations to address the identified shortcomings.

Madam Speaker, I wish to acknowledge the challenges outlined in your Committee’s report such as inadequate funding, wasteful expenditure and loss of revenue.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to inform the House that the New Dawn Administration will not condone the mismanagement of public resources. To resolve the misuse and abuse of public resources, the New Dawn Administration has established fast-track courts to deal with matters of financial and economic crimes.

Madam Speaker, it is difficult for me to avoid referring to something that my colleagues have already referred to, that is the meeting that was held yesterday between the Head of State and the leadership of parastatals. This is so because in many of these problems, the most critical thing is leadership. Leadership is paramount to resolving some of these issues. You can establish laws and regulations but if the leadership is weak or not committed, I am afraid we will keep on getting reports such as this one year after year.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, let me give you an example. The President yesterday talked about the fact that he does not want any wastefulness in our parastatals and that he will not condone any wastefulness, corruption and mismanagement. That is what he said. However, beyond that, I think he brings a breath of fresh air in the sense that he does not just demand, but he leads by example. For example, yesterday, he took time to talk about why any leader, whether a prime minister, a president or a king, would go to the extent of purchasing a very expensive luxurious aeroplane when there are children not attending school.

Hon. Government Member: His disciples are here.                          

Mr Nanjuwa: The pharisees.

Dr Musokotwane: That is the question that he raised, but he did not just raise the question, he took leadership. He stated very clearly that he would not accept an expensive piece of equipment for luxury and so on and so forth.  He said he is not going to jump into that luxurious plane because a lot of money went into it, almost US$200 million, and he said that is none of him. Therefore, when the President denies – in fact, let me give another example. He has always spoken about the fact that when he came into office, officers showed him the new cars they wanted to buy him. They showed him the new Mercedes Benz, the new Landcruiser and other cars that they were going to buy him but he said he would have none of that because he found motor vehicles which were still in good condition and those were the ones he was going to use.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: What is the relationship between what I am saying and the parastatals? By showing that leadership, that he is not going to tolerate wastefulness, and when he tells the parastatal heads that he does not want wastefulness, they take him seriously because he has set the example. So, when the President tells all Ministers and heads of parastatals that he does not want wastefulness, he has set the tone. He is leading at the front, unlike in the past. When you are at the forefront of living a luxurious life and spending a lot of money then, of course, the parastatal heads say to themselves that that is the lifestyle that has been introduced and why should they be left behind. So, they will do the same.

Madam Speaker, all I am trying to say is that leadership is paramount in all these things and under this Administration, the President has set the tone by denying himself luxurious things which take a lot of money. Which head of a parastatal will dare to defy him and say he will buy a VX or an aeroplane? None of them will do that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: So, the leadership has set the tone. Therefore, all I can say is that moving forward, it is my conviction that these stories of atrocities in the way public money is being spent will be reduced to the minimum, so that the money that is saved can pay for our children’s boarding fees, we can build clinics, we can buy medicines and we can fix our roads. That is what our money is going to be used for.

Madam Speaker, I support the report, and I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up debate. In winding up debate, I thank the hon. Members who contributed to the debate on this Motion, the hon. Member for Chipili, the hon. Member for Sikongo, the hon. Member for Chama North, the hon. Member for Nalolo, the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa, the hon. Member for Kasenengwa, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, the hon. Member for Kantanshi, the hon. Member for Lufubu, the hon. Member for Mwandi, the hon. Member for Chasefu, Hon. Misheck Nyambose for that hilarious debate, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and, lastly, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, allow me to comment on some of the very important debates that were made by these hon. Members.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Chipili confirmed how state-owned enterprises were poorly managed in the past and that is the reason the report is in that state. The hon. Member for Sikongo also suggested doing things differently in the New Dawn Government. That reminded me of yesterday’s meeting, where the President convened a conference of heads of parastatal bodies and other statutory institutions, and oriented them on how he envisages the country to be and how those institutions must be managed.

Madam Speaker, just to correct the record, the hon. Member for Chama South mentioned US$50 million, but that was corrected in the debate delivered by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, that it was, in fact, US$120 million that was given to Zambia Railways Limited for the rehabilitation of the track, which had issues that we have been grappling with in the Auditor-General’s Report.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Nalolo also commented on the President’s meeting with heads of state-owned enterprises and other parastatal institutions, cementing what had already been talked about. He also talked about one very important aspect of a particular case that happened at the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) where a supplier was charging that institution interest based on a contract that did not provide for the charging of interest, a financial irregularity that was cited in the Auditor-General’s Report and needs to be followed up. We implore the Ministry of Agriculture to ensure that that is corrected.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa being an accountant emphasised on the need to strengthen the internal control environment which has caused these institutions not to perform the way they should have.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Kasenengwa needs to be reminded that the report is actually talking about 2020 and not the current situation.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Kantanshi suggested that even board members forwater utility companies and parastatal bodies need to be oriented and that apart from the Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) who were oriented yesterday, a similar meeting should be arranged for board members to enhance co-operate governance.

Madam Speaker, all in all, I thank everyone who debated because they added value to the Motion I moved on the Floor of this House. With those few words, I beg to move.

I thank you,Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

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BILLS

SECOND READING

THE PENAL CODE (Amendment) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the current age of criminal responsibility in the Penal Code Act Chapter 87 of the Laws of Zambia is provided for under Section 14. The Act provides that a person under the age of eight is not criminally liable for any act or omission. This age is considered to be extremely low and does not conform to the international best practice on the preferred age of criminal responsibility for a child, taking into consideration the maturity of a child and the ability to know that a particular act is offensive.

Madam Speaker, the objective of the Penal Code (Amendment) Billis to raise the age of criminal responsibility in order to align our laws with the international best practice. Additionally, the amendment is sought in anticipation of the enactment of the Children’s Code Bill, 2022, by this august House. The enactment of the Children’s Code Bill, 2022, will necessitate amendments to existing pieces of legislation and one such amendment is the Penal Code Amendment.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is very progressive and should be supported because the proposed amendment is intended to allay anticipated inconsistencies in the law and enable the country to comply with the international best practice on the age of criminal responsibility as aforementioned. I urge the hon. Members of this House to wholeheartedly support it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola):Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker, in accordance with the terms of reference set out in Standing Orders No. 197(f) and 198 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, your Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance was tasked to scrutinise the Penal Code (Amendment) BillNo.13 of 2022, referred to it on Thursday, 7^th July, 2022. 

Madam Speaker, in order to appreciate the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from stakeholders. Most of the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the Bill.  This amendment is timely as it seeks to protect children from being subjected to the often harsh criminal justice system. This noble House will agree with me that as a country, we do not have adequate correctional facilities and our facilities lack the basic requirements to accommodate the needs of children.

Madam Speaker, your Committee agrees with stakeholders that within the fourteen-year age threshold, there will still be children who will be involved in crime. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the National Diversion Framework, which has been developed by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services in the context of national child reform efforts, and which sets out the scope, criteria, process and options for the use of diversion must be fully implemented to respond to children offending by way of diversion from the mainstream criminal justice system.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is cognisant of the challenges associated with the full implementation of diversion programmes.  Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to ensure that the necessary resources are availed to the implementing ministry and Government agencies so that the various programmes under the diversion system that are meant to assist children who abrogate the law are actualised.

Madam Speaker, your Committee further observes that in the field of child development and neuroscience, documented evidence indicates that maturity and the capacity for abstract reasoning is still evolving in children aged twelve to thirteen and not yet fully developed. This is why the United Nations (UN) Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended that the age of criminal responsibility for a child should be fourteen and above.

Madam Speaker, your Committee, therefore, recommends that the age of criminal responsibility for children, and their subjection to the criminal justice system in Zambia, should be fourteen even though it was informed by the Ministry of Justice when it appeared before it that the minimum age to consider was twelve and notfourteen,as indicated in the Bill.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to render my sincere gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support services rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.  I also wish to place on record the appreciation of your Committee to all stakeholders who made both written and oral submissions to your Committee with regard to the Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, I thank you, and I also thank your Committee for its report and the recommendations contained therein, which essentially are in support of the proposed amendment, save on the question of the actual age of criminal responsibility, which will be adequately debated on the Floor of this House at the appropriate time.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Chairperson and the members of your Committee for their very succinct report.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 28^th July, 2022.

THE PROBATION OF OFFENDERS (Amendment) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba)): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for this opportunity to present the Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill No. 14 of 2022 for second reading. Further, I wish to appreciate the hon. Members of your Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for their steadfast effort in ensuring that the Bill is brought to this stage.

Madam Speaker, the amendment of the Probation of Offenders Act Chapter 93 was necessitated by the child law reforms that led to the amalgamation and coding of all child-related laws in the country to bring harmonisation, realignment and domestication of regional and international treaties and best practice on child welfare and protection.

In doing so, Madam Speaker, child-related laws such as the Legitimacy Act of 1929, the Adoption Act of 1956, the Juveniles Act also of 1956 and the Affiliation and Maintenance of Children Act of 1989 will be repealed and replaced. However, the Probation of Offenders Act Chapter 93 will not be repealed and replaced in totality as it also covers adult probationers, and therefore, consequential amendments to specific sections are necessary to realign the provisions with the children’s code.

Madam Speaker, the amendment will have the following impact on the Probation of Offenders Act:

   (a)   the definitions of key concepts such as that of a child or children in conflict with the law in the Probation of

         Offenders Act will be realigned with the definitions in the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia and the

          new children’s code;

   (b)   the provisions in the Probation of Offenders Act will have the internationally acceptable language which is

          child friendly and lawful;

   (c)   the amendments will lessen ambiguity and misinterpretation of the provisions on children in the Probation

         of Offenders Act; and

    (d)  the consequential amendments to the Probation of Offenders Act will also ensure domestication of

          international conventions and best practices on the enhancement of the protection and promotion of

          children’s rights. 

Madam Speaker, I hereby call upon the hon. Members of this august House to favourably consider the amendment to this Act.

Madam Speaker, I thank you, and I beg to move.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for according me an opportunity to brief the House on matters pertaining to the Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill No. 14 of 2022, which was referred to your Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for scrutiny on 7^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker, in scrutinising the Bill, your Committee consulted various stakeholders in order to better appreciate the ramifications of the Bill.

Madam Speaker, as the House is aware, the Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill No. 14 of 2022 seeks to amend the Probation of Offenders Act Chapter 93 of the Laws of Zambia so as to revise the provisions relating to the probation of children who are in conflict with the law and also provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing. The amendment of the Probation of Offenders Act will align its provisions with the Children’s Code Act 2022 once enacted.

Madam Speaker, let me state from the outset that your Committee is in full support of the Bill. Similarly, the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported most of the proposed amendments. They pointed out that they understood that the Government needed to amend the Act in order to align the Probation of Offenders Act Chapter 93 of the Laws of Zambia with the Constitution of Zambia which is the supreme law of the land.

Madam Speaker, let me mention that stakeholders, in supporting the Bill, also raised some concerns. These are recorded in your Committee’s report. One of the concerns that I wish to mention here relates to the amendment of Section 2 of the principle Act. Stakeholders appreciated the amendment to provide for the definitions of child and child in conflict with the law in order to align them with the Constitution and the Children’s Code Act of 2022 respectively. However, they were concerned that the Bill does not provide for the definition of child in contact with the law. Your Committee learnt that under the national juvenile justice system, child in contact with the law refers to any child who is subject of adoption, affiliation, custody, maintenance and foster care proceedings as well as migrant, victim, witness or juvenile in need of care who include even circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, let me now highlight some of your Committee’s observations and recommendations. In doing so, I wish to begin by stating that your Committee shares the stakeholders’ concern that the Bill does not define child in contact with the law. Considering that there has been recognition of such category of children in the juvenile justice system, your Committee, therefore, recommends that Section 2 of the Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill No. 14 of 2022 should provide for the definition of a child in contact with the law.

Madam Speaker, your Committee learnt that most of the correctional service facilities are used as transit centres as juveniles are transferred from one correctional facility to another before their cases are concluded. However, these juveniles are transferred without a report from the Department of Social Welfare,in most cases. This tends to disadvantage them when it comes to recognising them as children in conflict with the law. In light of this, your Committee recommends that children who are identified for transfer should be provided with a report from the Department of Social Welfare without fail so that they are accorded the recognition and care they deserve as children in conflict with the lawwhen in transit centres.

Madam Speaker, another issue that caught your Committee’s attention is the delayed court processes of cases involving children.  This results in children being kept in correctional service facilities much longer. Your Committee urges the Government to consider expediting court processes of cases which involve juveniles and children, so that children do not become confined in correctional facilities for longer periods thereby even spoiling their minds more.

Madam Speaker, your Committee further notes that the approval of probation orders, approved school orders and reformatory orders is a preserve of High Court Judges, who currently are not present in some provinces and districts. Your Committee is concerned that the absence of High Court Judges in some provinces and districts disadvantages children.Therefore, your Committee urges the Government to consider amending the law in order to transfer the power to make such approvals and orders from High Court Judges to chief resident magistrates, principal magistrates, senior resident magistrates and resident magistrates. This has the potential to promote efficiency in the administration of orders as these are easily accessible in most rural areas.

Finally, Madam Speaker, allow me to pay tribute to the stakeholders who made submissions to your Committee.  I also wish to put on record, your Committee’s gratitude to youfor affording it an opportunity to study the Bill. Your Committee also thanks the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice and excellent support services rendered to it during the consideration of the Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Musanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the reportof your Committee on the Bill presented by the hon. Minister of Justice, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, the Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill No.14 of 2022, which is related to the one which we have just passed on the age of criminal responsibility being moved upwards.

Madam Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of the children’s caucus here at Parliament in support of this amendment Bill and the previous one because as a caucus, we are excited with the progress being made by the New Dawn Government in the area of professionalising and child rights in the country.

Madam Speaker, as a country, we are a signatory to the United Nations (UN)Charter on the Rights of Children where state obligations are clearly stated and since we signed it many decades ago, we did not progress the way we have progressed in this New Dawn Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musanje: Madam Speaker, we also signed the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of Children which again states clearly the rights of children, but since we signed it in the 1990s, we never progressed the way we have progressed under the New Dawn Government. I, therefore,commend the ministry and your Committeeled by General Sitwala for a job well done in scrutinisingthis Bill, aligningand harmonising it to these very important international benchmarks and best practices in as far as children’s rights are concerned.

Madam Speaker, among the issues that have been raised in terms of children who come in conflict with the law isthe issue of fees and the absence of High Court Judges in most provinces. I support the call to amend and move this responsibility to the principal or resident or senior magistrates at most stations who are readily available. I also propose that all fees related to court orders for children be abolished in order to allow children to be supported easily. Most of the children in circumstantial detention, under foster care and related, or their families find it difficult to raise these fees and there have been hindrances in instances where these fees exist. We know that there is inconsistency in this area because in some areas, there are no fees, but in some provinces, there are fees. Therefore, we are calling for the abolishment of the fees.

Madam Speaker, as stated by His Excellency when he addressed this House, those who have offences against children and Gender Based Violence (GBV) related issues are on their own and will not be supported by this Government. This Government has demonstrated that it cares for the children of Mbabala and all the children in this country. Therefore, we are very excited that the future of our children will be very bright. Our children will grow under a very responsible Government. They will become responsible adults and will be able to contribute to the growth and development of this country. This country is headed for the best.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, Ithank the hon. Members who have debated, the hon. Member for Kaoma Central and Chairperson of your Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, and the hon. Member for Mbabala.Their contributions have been duly noted.

Madam Speaker, very quickly in brief response, we are grateful for the support shown by your Committee and, indeed, the stakeholders to the proposed amendment. Indeed, as a ministry, we are gratified for the level of support that has been shown.

Madam Speaker, we must note that the proposed amendment is merely a consequential amendment following upon the proposed enactment of the Children’sCode Bill. So, the matter of definitions being included in this proposed amendment for children in contact with the law, much as it is fully appreciated, I would like to underscore that in fact the definition is properly covered in the proposed Children’sCode Bill and, therefore, would not properly sit in this proposed amendment. However, we duly appreciate the submission by your Committee in that respect.

Madam Speaker, we also note the broader issues that have been brought forward by your Committee in respect of the processing, shall I say generally, of children in the criminal justice system and the anomalies that have been noted. This is, of course, not the appropriate forum to deal with the particular anomalies that have been noted because this amendment is specific to deal with probation matters.

That said, however, Madam Speaker, we seriously note the concerns raised and an appropriate decision will be taken whether or not the substantive Act dealing with those matters needs to be amended in its own regard and we will consider that in due course. It is suffice for me to say that as at now in terms of the gap highlighted in the social welfare reports, the ministry has embarked on an in-service training programme so as to enhance the availability and improve the responsiveness of the social welfare officers. So, something is being done even in the interim.

Madam Speaker, as for the valid suggestion by the hon. Member for Mbabala and, indeed, he mentioned that they had a caucus on children, we are thankful, as I mentioned earlier, for those contributions. We note what has been laid on the Floor of the House, if I may, by the hon. Member. Likewise, however, it is beyond the scope of the Business of the House at the moment, but not to say that it is going to be ignored in any way.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I submit and I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee Stage, today.

_______

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

THE PROBATION OF OFFENDERS (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill, 2022 

Third Reading today.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill, 2022

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1818 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 27^thJuly, 2022.

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