Tuesday, 28^th June, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ISSUANCE OF MINISTERIAL STATEMENT ON FISP

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Tuesday, 21^st June, 2022, I directed the hon. Minister of Agriculture to render a ministerial statement on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). The ministerial statement was to be issued today, Tuesday, 28^th June, 2022. The ministerial statement will now be issued tomorrow, Wednesday, 29^th June, 2022.

I thank you.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE GASSING OF SCHOOL CHILDREN IN NDEKE VILLAGE

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, on 22^nd June, 2022, which was Wednesday, last week, twelve pupils at a school named Wesley Nyirenda Combined School in Ndeke Village were gassed and the matter was reported to the police.

Madam Speaker, allow me to refer to a news item of Friday, 24^th June, 2022, reported in The Daily Nation newspaper of last week. The title of the news item is: Twelve Pupils Gassed in Kitwe. About twelve pupils at Wesley Nyirenda Combined School in Ndeke Village were rushed to Kitwe Teaching Hospital with chest pains and dry coughs after unidentified people sprayed unknown substances in a Grade 2 class, which chocked the pupils. Ms Doris Lungo, a senior teacher of house number H134 Ndeke Village, reported that unidentified people have sprayed an unknown substance in a Grade 2 class, which chocked the pupils. Copperbelt Police Commissioner, Sharon Chelo-Zulu, confirmed the incident on Wednesday around 1300 hours and the said twelve pupils were examined and observed at the hospital.

Madam Speaker, Wesley Nyirenda Secondary School is in my constituency, and I have been receiving phone calls from the community that pupils are reporting for school with a lot of fear that the incident might repeat itself. The level of concentration has been affected not only at Wesley Nyirenda Secondary School, but all the other schools because these are school going children coming from the same community.

Madam Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order 134 and I direct this urgent matter of public importance to Her Honour the Vice-President to seek further guidance and assurance to members of the public that these cases of gassing, which have reappeared with particular reference to Kamfinsa Constituency, are receiving the right amount of attention from the Government.

Madam Speaker, you always set a criterion for an urgent matter of public importance and this is a recent matter of occurrence. This is a matter that has caused apprehension amongst the public and parents as well. The matter has been well reported in the public media and I believe it requires assurance from the Government in terms of steps to provide the right education environment as well as safeguard the lives of school going children.

Madam Speaker, I seek your further guidance.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, you have, indeed, raised a matter which is important and you have also set the criterion, but the remaining criterion that you did not ask yourself was: is it a matter of life and death? Of course, I understand that there is fear that has been instilled in the children, but I believe the best way to confront this issue is to put in a question, even an urgent one, through an hon. Minister or Her Honour the Vice-President’s Office to inquire and then maybe, come back with an appropriate answer to this question.

Of course, it is dreaded that we should go back to the days when there was gassing and so much apprehension. As I said, the matter is important, but it does not qualify to be raised under Standing Order 134 as read with 135. The hon. Member is advised to put in an appropriate question directed to the respective hon. Minister or Her Honour the Vice-President, so that an appropriate answer can be provided.

Further, being the hon. Member of Parliament from the constituency, I think the people of Zambia expect more. When things like that happen, you should be on the ground to find out what exactly happened because the people of Zambia will benefit more from the person who is on the ground also engaging with the relevant institutions. So, let us not just demand answers from the Executive, but as hon. Members of Parliament, let us make sure that we also engage and find out what is happening on the ground. Then we can engage the Executive, so that by the time the matter comes on the Floor of this House, at least some mechanism or measures would have been taken to prevent children from suffering further harm.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

SOCIAL CASH TRANSFER PROGRAMME

Madam Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President is going to deliver the statement on behalf of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services. So, I can see that the Government is not sleeping.

Laughter

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, it is with gratitude that I stand to render a ministerial statement on the Social Cash Transfer Programme being implemented by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Madam, the Social Cash Transfer Programme is a key social protection intervention that seeks to contribute to the reduction of extreme poverty and inter-generational transfer of poverty. The programme aims to provide social assistance to the most destitute and incapacitated households such as: households with members who are chronically ill and on palliative care or with persons with disabilities; child-headed households; the elderly aged sixty-five or above; and female-headed households with at least three children or more and are not married, in order to meet their needs, particularly in health, education, food and shelter.

Madam Speaker, more than ever, the Government is committed to improving the lives and wellbeing of our people living in extreme poverty and has prioritised and broadened the Social Cash Transfer Programme. Currently, the national caseload of the programme still stands at 973,323. However, the process of adding new beneficiaries in accordance with the Social Cash Transfer guidelines has begun and the caseload is expected to reach a landmark of 1,027,000 by 31^st December, 2022. The total caseloads comprise of the following:

       (a)   646,882 female-headed households;

       (b)   129,100 households with persons with disabilities;

       (c)   162,715 elderly persons;

       (d)   31,194 chronically ill and on palliative care; and

       (e)   3,4321 child-headed households.

Madam Speaker, to ensure that the implementation of the Social Cash Transfer Programme continues to add value to the welfare of the targeted beneficiaries, the transfer value paid to beneficiaries was increased from K150 per month in 2021 to K200 per month for households without persons with severe disabilities and from K300 per month to K400 per month for households with persons with severe disabilities. These payments are made every two months at K400 and K800 respectively.

Madam, it is also important to note that the payment of transfers has been predictable and regular as evidenced by recent payments, which are up to date. This is important to ensure that household incomes are stable to assist beneficiaries in meeting their immediate needs, invest in assets and avoid negative coping strategies.

Madam Speaker, the Social Cash Transfer Programme continues to be one of the most effective strategies to combat extreme poverty among the vulnerable and incapacitated households in society. The Government has automated the payment system through the development of the Zambia Integrated Social Protection Information System (ZISPIS), which is a gateway for data management and electronic payment system. This has been done to enhance administration, planning, co-ordination, transparency and accountability in the management of the Social Cash Transfer Programme.

The ZISPIS is also aimed at improving efficiency as well as to ensure real time tracking of resources in order to reach the intended vulnerable households. Further, this system provides users with timely, accurate, consistent, complete and relevant information for enhanced decision making. ZISPIS has been piloted in Kitwe and Namwala districts to pay beneficiaries for the January/February and March/April, 2022 payment cycles. In addition, payment of transfers to beneficiaries in the other districts has been processed using the programme. The lessons learnt from the pilot districts are being used to make improvements in the operational set-up of the programme.

Madam Speaker, the ministry has continued to implement the grievance management system, a mechanism that allows community members and other stakeholders to channel their complaints relating to the Social Cash Transfer Programme and receive timely feedback. The following channels are available to beneficiaries and stakeholders to register their complaints:

       (a)    the online platform, which is accessible on the ministerial website;

       (b)   mobile application, which is accessed on a smart phone application for the District Social Welfare 

             Officers (DSWOS) and pay point managers within villages and communities; and

       (c)   community boxes which are made available at different places such as schools, health centres, chiefs’

              palaces, churches and other public places within communities.

Madam, the availability of these platforms makes it possible for the Social Cash Transfer Programme to be more responsive to the needs of the most poor and vulnerable citizens as well as other stakeholders. This has continued to enhance programming and accountability as well as build stakeholder confidence.

Madam Speaker, for a more integrated approach to the delivery of the Social Cash Transfer Programme and social protection programmes in general, the ministry has established linkages and synergies in programming where households require a mixed set of complementary interventions. This is with the aim of maximising the impact and sustainability of the programme. In this vein, the ministry is promoting cash plus initiatives to combine the social cash payments with other social protection programmes such as the Keeping Girls in School and Women Empowerment Programme.

Madam, to further enhance the benefits, the ministry, with support from the United Nations (UN) has established the linkage with nutritional outcomes by piloting a cash plus programme called The First 1000 Most Critical Days targeting households with pregnant women, breastfeeding women or children below twenty four months. The pilot is being implemented in four districts, namely Chipata, Mpika, Kalabo and Mwinilunga, which are among the districts with the highest stunting levels in under five children in the country. The importance of integrating the social cash transfer with the nutrition program is that it helps to frame the social cash transfer nutritional outcomes which have a huge bearing on child development and its associated relationship to educational outcomes.

Madam Speaker, this is critical for breaking the inter-generational transfer of poverty in extremly poor and vulnerable households.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to remind this august House that the social cash transfer programme is nationwide and captures the most vulnerable in our society using set guidelines. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of Parliament to take time to familiarise themselves with the guidelines and the various aspects of the program as well as sensitise their constituencies on the programme.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by Her Honour the Vice-President on behalf of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for standing in for the hon. Minister. Last time, this exercise or the funds suffered a setback where it was suspended and the stakeholders or should I say the donors demanded for the withdraw of the monies. What measures has the ministry put in place to ensure that your ministry does not suffer the embarrassment that it suffered last time when the exercise was halted.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the measures that the Government has put in place in order to avoid what happened earlier when there was abuse of the same social cash transfer and we saw some of the sponsors deciding to withdraw is what I have mentioned in the statement that the Government has gone electronic. The payment system is now electron. So, you do not have to have a person to person interaction to make payment. The data base is still being developed but that is the way we have gone. The transfers are not being done by people going to stand and looking at the faces of those they are paying. That is one way we are trying to ensure that we reduce on their bills of the system.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the timely statement. Indeed, yesterday, I had received a query from the constituency regarding the amounts that are supposed to be paid and your statement has come out very clear. However, my question is that: I have failed to provide answers, neither have answers come from the district social welfare concerning some beneficiaries who previously were receiving the funds, but then, all of the sudden they see their neighbors receiving and they have not been included on the payments that have been coming, especially after the elections in August of last year.

Madam, I have failed to find the answers and explanations why those who were vulnerable and used to receive the funds are no longer doing so are receiving and the answers from the District Social Welfare do not seem to be very clear. Has there been a revision in the data base or what would be the explanation for that?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think that if there is a real and genuine case where a person who is truly vulnerable and deserves to be on this program and has been removed for some reason, then the ministry needs feedback in real time. That is why I said, in my statement earlier, that you will see that there are many points at which you could help such members to raise their complaints because even if there was a revision and people who deserve to be on that programme were left out, there is a need to follow that up. Otherwise, I do not think that the ministry has left out people deliberately, but there were also issues in the old system where some people who did not really deserve to be on the programme ended up being beneficiaries. If those cannot prove that they are vulnerable under the categories that I read out and which we all know, then definitely, those will be removed. If it is a genuine complaint, the hon. Member should encourage them to report that, either electronically or even physically at the health centers so that the information is captured and they will definitely be put back on the programme, if it is found that indeed, there is a problem.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the statement. What are some of the future plans that the ministry has, considering the fact that the cost of living has gone up and those figures that those vulnerable people are receiving are unsustainable in terms of survival? In addition to that, are there any ideas of how these vulnerable people can end up benefiting from the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) so that their health is guaranteed? Furthermore, how can they be linked to the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) so that they can also grow their own food to sustain themselves, going forward, because the vulnerable cannot survive on those amounts that Her Honour the Vice-President has announced?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let me apologise that I did not get that question very clearly. Maybe, the hon. Member can repeat his question and allow the hon. Minister to continue so that the answers are clearer.

I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kantanshi, please repeat your question and then the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services will pick it up from there.

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, thank you once again. Hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, in view of the figures that were announced in your statement, the people who are vulnerable will still continue to live those vulnerable lives considering the cost of living. I wanted to find out whether, in an effort to improve the lives of the vulnerable people, you can connect them to NHIMA through the monies that you are paying them and how you can also connect them to FISP so that they are able to grow their own food. This is in support of what your ministry is already doing because that programme has to be improved if it has to respond to the challenges that our people are facing.

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba): Madam Speaker, the ministry is actually introducing a programme or a facility that we are calling Cash Plus. This is a facility that we are putting our Social Cash Transfer beneficiaries on other to broaden their income and reduce poverty levels, so that they are quickly removed from the Social Cash Transfer Programme. So, we are, indeed, linking some of them to the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). We are putting the Social Cash Transfer Programme beneficiaries on food security packs and other programmes that are found in other ministries such as the Ministry of Agriculture, so that they come out of poverty quickly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is in relation to the contravention of a ruling that was made in this House in previous sessions, and I am directing it to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker: What ruling was that? Just remind us.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it was before this session, in the previous sessions. Maybe, you need to hear this. Over the weekend, I had gone into the constituency to carry out my activities as the elected hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana. I decided to visit marketeers at Chisokone Market and then police were sent to stop my activities on the basis that I needed to get a police permit.

Madam Speaker, I know that the Public Order Act does require one to get a permit to convene people. However, in the ruling that was passed in this House, relating to an issue that was raised by hon. Members who used to sit on your left then, it was ruled that hon. Members of Parliament were not expected to get police permits to carry out their activities in their constituencies.

I went into my constituency and not in any other person’s constituency. Therefore, I find it so hard that I must be required and expected to get a police permit to carry out my activities. My question would be: How many police permits am I going to be expected to get for the next five years? Hon. Jack Mwiimbu has been an hon. Member of Parliament for over fifteen years, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Twenty!

Mr B. Mpundu: ... for twenty years. I do not know whether he would produce a police permit that he has ever gotten to carry out activities in his constituency.

Mr Nkandu: Balikucita bwino.

Mr B. Mpundu: The hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts says balincita bwino, meaning that they did well. That is what we expect. That is what we are looking at.

Madam Speaker, I bring it to this House. Is it okay for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to send police officers on me, a young representative of the people, elected by the people of Nkana, to stop me from carrying out my mandate on the basis that I must get a police permit?

Madam Speaker, there has been a ruling in this House that hon. Members of Parliament are not expected to get police permits. Are we setting that ruling aside because we are a new Parliament? I bring it to you. Should the status quo continue? Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to continue sending police officers on me, to stop me from working?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Indeed, I understand that there was a ruling which stated that hon. Members of Parliament do not require police permits to discharge their functions in the constituencies. In any event, the law does not say that members of the public or even hon. Members of Parliament should get police permits. What is required, however, is that they should notify the police. So, rest assured that under the circumstances, hon. Member for Nkana and the rest of the hon. Members, the law as it stands now, and in accordance with the ruling that was earlier pronounced in this House, hon. Members of Parliament do not require a police permit to discharge or to carry out their functions in their respective constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Members! Can we make progress.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, last week, I lodged a complaint regarding the Social Cash Transfer Programme in Kanchibiya Constituency and how one ward; Chewe Shimufwamba Ward with about 250 potential beneficiaries was completely left out. Yesterday, I got calls indicating that your officers would be getting into the ward today. Thank you for being proactive. However, I just want to understand whether there is any policy, or what needs to be done when officers on the ground make their own decisions that are at variance with the Government’s policy and obligation to provide this particular service to all citizens who are eligible? We are talking about poor elderly persons being left out for their own reasons. Their action is at variance with the Government policy of reaching out to all beneficiaries. I submit.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, the issues surrounding that ward arose due to a conflict of traditional leaders and the Government withdrew. So, after the hon. Member lodged in the complaint, we went back that same day to engage the two traditional leaders who agreed that we should continue with the Social Cash Transfers Programmes.

Madam Speaker, I want to elaborate further that in that same area, we have many vulnerable people. These are older persons, persons with disabilities, without National Registration Cards (NRCs) and it is very difficult to put them on this programme. I just came from a meeting this morning, and the United Nations International Children Emergency Fund (UNICEF) has given us funding for the issuance of NRCs to all potential Social Cash Transfer Programme beneficiaries who do not hold NRCs in the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lusambo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 129.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, according to Standing Order 129:

“(1) The Vice-President or a minister may ask for permission from the Speaker to present a statement in the House on behalf of the Government on any matter falling within his or her portfolio in the case of a minister.”

Madam Speaker, there is a statement concerning the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL). The hon. Minister of Technology and Science visited ZAMTEL. When he visited ZAMTEL, he was quoted in the Lusaka Times edition of 27^th June, 2022.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Technology and Science was on a familiarisation tour of ZAMTEL headquarters, he announced that the Government had no intention of recapitalising ZAMTEL. The people in our constituencies who are workers of ZAMTEL are anxious or there is a lot of anxiety out there.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to keep quiet without informing this House and your hon. Members of Parliament who are coming from various constituencies and are hosting workers of ZAMTEL so that we can have a position from the Government on the fate of ZAMTEL? In so doing, we can go and inform our people. Is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to keep quiet without informing us on the fate of ZAMTEL?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabushi, you are attempting to raise a matter of urgent public importance at a wrong time. The point of order that you have raised and the Standing Order you have cited do not relate to each other.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: It has been quoted out of context. So, if you are interested in knowing what either the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning or Technology and Science is doing in relation to ZAMTEL, you are advised to put in an appropriate question.

Can we make progress.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, when Her Honour the Vice-President was rendering a statement on behalf of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, she indicated that the ministry has put in place measures which should be used when stakeholders and beneficiaries want to lodge in complaints relating to the social cash transfer.

Madam, we would like to know the prominent complaint that has been lodged through these platforms that the ministry has put in place so that we can, maybe, help the ministry in sorting out some of those complaints that have been coming from the social cash transfer scheme beneficiaries and other stakeholders.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chinsali for that question. The complaints have to do with the issue surrounding representatives or deputies of the beneficiaries. These are nominated members of the family who receive money on behalf of beneficiaries. In most cases, what we have found out is that those representatives do not deliver the full amount. They are in the habit of telling beneficiaries that they deducted a K100 or 50 per cent whilst they take the rest of the money. So, we are on the ground verifying with beneficiaries whether these representatives or deputies should continue collecting money on their behalf. That is the issue that is on the ground.

Madam Speaker, another grievance we have identified through the grievance mechanism that we have put in place is coming from persons with disabilities, and that has to do with the movement or mobility of going to these pay points The affected are requesting the ministry to shorten the distances of pay points, and we are looking into that. We will try to see how money can be taken to our beneficiaries.

Madam, the other issue is that the beneficiaries want the value to increase because they are saying prices of essential commodities have gone up. So, they are humbly asking if we can also increase the value or the amounts that they are getting currently.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chifubu an opportunity to ask a question. The ministry has put in place community structures that help in the administration of the Social Cash Transfer Fund, which are known as the Community Welfare Assistance Committees (CWACs) and the Area Co-ordinating Committees (ACCs) that help the ministry. They, too, play an oversight role in the disbursement of funds to the beneficiaries.

Madam Speaker, members of these community structures are not privileged to have the records of beneficiaries and the money assigned to these beneficiaries when the money reaches the pay point. So, sometimes, you will find that some of the beneficiaries are not paid and are told that the money is not enough. So, their oversight role has failed to bear results because of insufficient information in terms of absence of records. I want to find out if it is the policy of the ministry for these structures that play an oversight role not to have the information of the money and records of the beneficiaries to the pay points.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chifubu for the question. I hear you. The question actually is that beneficiaries who are on the programme currently drop off and have dropped off. Our pay point managers are telling these beneficiaries who, previously, were on social cash transfer but now have dropped off to say your money has not come and not that it is not enough. I will explain why that is so. The ministry has gone digital. Many of our people were sharing National Registration Cards (NRCs). In most cases, in the constituencies, we have quite a number of women and persons with disabilities sharing NRCs. We have situations in which we have one NRC card number appearing with four different names. So, now that we have gone digital, the three names will drop off. We are urging the beneficiaries to register and obtain their own NRCs. No, Community Welfare Assistance Committee (CWAC) or pay point manager can take or keep money for a beneficiary without our knowledge.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, thank allow me to thank the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services for the efficiency that she has exhibited in the disbursement of these funds, which our people are benefitting from as we are speaking. However, I have a question to the hon. Minister, which is that: how does the system treat beneficiaries who have since died? Does the system keep giving them money for a particular period of time or just upon evidence being given that such a beneficiary is no more, does it just there and then cut the services or what happens.? I just want some advice on that one.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, normally, when we get notification that one of the beneficiaries has died, they drop off the system. However, in most cases, it takes about one or two months for us to get the accurate information. The decision to maintain such a household on the programme depends on how vulnerable that household is. If the registered beneficiary dies, but the household is still vulnerable, it continues to receive the Social Cash Transfer Fund.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I will allow four more questions. Hon. Member for Mandevu Constituency, you may proceed.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity given to the people of Mandevu Constituency to ask a question. Firstly, allow me to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for delivering the ministerial statement on behalf of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services.

Madam Speaker, earlier this month, I was having town hall meetings within my wards and one of the complaints I received was that many beneficiaries were left out as a result of officers putting their friends, girlfriends and relatives on the list of beneficiaries. My question is: what measures will the ministry put in place to ensure that the right people benefit from the Social Cash Transfer Fund? I ask this because in Mandevu, some of our people have been left out and undesirable people are the ones who are receiving this money.

Madam Speaker: I believe the question was answered except the addition of girlfriends and relatives.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, on that account only, I will ask the hon. Minister to give a clarification.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, these relationships the hon. Member is talking about are so private that it is very difficult to establish who is going out with whom. Even in here, it is very difficult to know who loves who.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms D. Mwamba: So, we can just imagine how difficult it is in communities to know which beneficiary is in love with whoever.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Emmanuel Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Speaker, when Her Honour the Vice-President read a ministerial statement on behalf of the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, she stated that the ministry is trying to migrate from the payment of the Social Cash Transfer from hard cash to either mobile money or other digital payment platforms.

Madam Speaker, among the beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer are the blind. The hon. Minister has just stated that the people who are charged with the responsibility of paying cash are so dishonest that they do not deliver the full amount to the benficiary. So, I want to find out from the hon. Minister how the ministry is going to protect the beneficiaries of the social cash transfer who are blind considering that most of the workers in the communities are so dishonest and we do not have mobile phones specifically for the blind.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I did not say that CWACs or pay point managers take the money or never pay the full amounts. I said that beneficiaries, mostly persons with disabilities cannot walk long distances, and so, they normally nominate deputies to collect money on their behalf. They nominate either a child or if the beneficiary is young, his/her parents go to the centres and collects monies on their behalf. Now, it is some of these nominated deputies who are in a habit of keeping some money to themselves and not giving the beneficiaries.

Madam Speaker, we are on the ground sensitising the deputies and also getting back to the beneficiaries themselves to find out whether we should continue with their nominated deputies or not. We have put measures in place and sensitisation is going round. Mostly, the blind nominate deputies who collect monies on their behalf. We will take advantage of the population census that will be take place this year to establish how many blind people are on the Social Cash Transfer Programme. Furthermore, as Her Honour the Vice-President said earlier, we have gone digital and we are about to start giving cellular phones to all the beneficiaries so that they can be receiving their monies through their phones.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister in charge of Community Development and Social Service if there are intentions to review the procedure for accessing the Social Cash Transfer Fund in as far as the role of the hon. Member of Parliament is concerned.

Madam Speaker, I raise this particular question because currently, the structure that has been recognised to make recommendations of who is eligible are the Community Welfare Assistance Committees (CWACs). However, the hon. Minister is aware that as hon. Members of Parliament, there are people calling us literally every day. There are people we interact with almost on a daily basis who do not even go through CWACs, but they are quite vulnerable. An hon. Member of Parliament is in a position to assess just by looking that this person in Kaputa needs to be placed on the Social Cash Transfer Programme. Why should an hon. Member of Parliament not be included as an individual in the constituency who is able to recognise the levels of vulnerability of people in the community?

Madam Speaker, are there plans to review the procedure so that an hon. Member of Parliament can as well do a letter and say this person has been assessed to be vulnerable and needs to be included on the Social Cash Transfer Programme.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa who is my son, for that question. Indeed, we are scaling up and I urge all hon. Members of Parliament to take interest in all our social protection programmes and identify vulnerable potential beneficiaries to be included on this programme. I urge the hon. Member to identify the potential beneficiaries through our social welfare assistants so that we include them on the programme.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last question will be asked by hon. Member for Chimbamilonga Constituency.

Mr Elias Musonda (Chimbamilonga): Madam Speaker, in one of her responses, the hon. Minister indicated that we have a situation where four people register with the same National Registration Card (NRC) number. Now, I am wondering how this registration process can allow four different names using the same registration card number.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I would gladly invite the hon. Member to our offices so that he can come and witness what I am talking about here.

Madam Speaker, we have a situation, especially in Lusaka where we have one Doreen Mwamba registered in Munali. She goes to Kanyama and collects from there too. Then she goes to Kabwata and Chawama. Now that we have gone digital, we are able to pick up all these anomalies and we are dropping them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND (IMF) NEGOTIATIONS

340. Mr Mumba (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

        (a)    whether the Government is aware that the anxiety among various stakeholders created by the delay in concluding

                 negotiations for the International Monetary Fund (IMF) bailout package, is adversely affecting the economy;

        (b)    when the negotiations will be concluded; and

        (c)    what other measures are being taken to recover the economy if the bailout package fails.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, the Government is, indeed, aware of the anxieties that have arisen from the perceived delay in reaching closure on discussions with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). I should, however, mention that there is no pending negotiation between the Government and the IMF. The negotiation was already conducted culminating into the staff level agreement (SLA) based on the extended credit facility (ECF) arrangement that was announced in December, 2021.

 Madam, further, I would like to mention that this agreement was reached barely three months after assuming office by the New Dawn Government in contrast with the extended discussions prior to that, which spanned over a period of more than five years, without any success. Therefore, there is no delay in negotiations. What is seemingly delaying is the conclusion of steps required to have the board table our agreement reached under the SLA to the board for approval.

Madam Speaker, I want to elaborate more on the understanding that was reached under the SLA. The SLA is an agreement between the members of staff of the IMF and the Zambian Government on the action that is needed to be taken to reset the economy. It means that we have agreed in principle on the pertinent steps that need to be undertaken by the Government to stabilise the economy, resume a growth trajectory, address fiscal mismanagement as seen in the huge borrowing in the past, commonly referred to as deficits, removing unsustainable expenditures such as subsidies that target certain sections of our population which are not vulnerable and putting in place measures to grow our revenue base. The agreement also entails putting in place structural and regulatory measures to address challenges such as over borrowing increasing, the independence of the Central Bank and having Parliament to get more oversight roles on borrowing activities.

Further getting assurances on financing through multilateral funding and creditor debt relief to underpin the SLA is a requirement. Therefore, there are actions to be undertaken before having a programme approved. These are what we call prior actions. Some of these actions are in our control while others are not, as I will explain.

Madam Speaker, the actions before the programme is approved are as follows:

Finalising the Debt Sustainability Analysis by the IMF and the Word Bank

Madam, this Debt Sustainability Analysis (DSA) is used to present the situation of Zambia’s debt and what is required to be done to bring the country to be able to afford making payments in future. This DSA has been completed and was recently presented to the bilateral creditors on 16^th June, for their consideration.

Pledges by Multilateral Lenders

Madam Speaker, pledges by multilateral lenders to provide concessional financing as part of their participation in resolving the country’s financing by providing resources to cover the financing gap determined by the DSA. So far, the World Bank has pledged to provide funding of about US$275 million as soon as the IMF programme is approved, to be used in financing the Budget.

Consistent with the DSA requirement, the bank is finalizing the provision of approximately US$950 million by the end of June 2022, to support Zambia’s recovery from the multiple debt and economic crisis to help to institute reforms for inclusive growth and poverty reduction. Out of this, US$294 million is for scaling-up the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) and the fight against the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) through vaccination and emergency health financing to improve service delivery.

Similarly, the African Development Bank (AfDB) will provide financing over the next three years in line with the commitments required for the programme to be implemented.

Zambia to Implement Reforms

Madam Speaker, Zambia is supposed to implement several reforms to stabilise the economy, ensure growth, and have its spending better focused. The Zambian Government has taken steps starting in 2022 to ensure that the Budget is not over spending by addressing wasteful subsidies, due to measures taken, the economy is growing again and inflation is reducing while the exchange rate is stable and the vulnerable people are being assisted through increased spending in social sectors.

Madam Speaker, further steps have been taken on the recruitment of teachers and health personnel to further address human and social development challenges. The Government has also taken measurers to resolve financial management challenges by undertaking work on commitment control during negotiations and auditing of domestic arrears and putting up an arrears dismantling strategy. Further, legislation is being put in place to have Parliament to approve external borrowing.

Convening of the Official Creditor Committee

Madam Speaker, the fourth requirement is the convening of the official creditor committee mainly bilateral and related lenders to discuss Zambia’s request for debt relief under the G20 Common Framework for Debt Treatment (G20-CFDT). The Committee is discussing Zambia’s requirement for possible write-offs and lengthening of repayment periods of the reaming debt. This was delayed from the first quarter, but the meeting finally convened on 16^th June, 2022.

Convening of Lenders

Madam Speaker, this is the convening of lenders immediately after the OCC, which is a committee of commercial bank lenders, Eurobonds and others. This is pending completion of discussions by the OCC.

Madam Speaker, clearly, as can be seen, some actions are within our reach while others are not. However, there is clear progress on many fronts within this short period of time. The date for the approval by the IMF Board of the agreement between Zambia and the staff can only follow once the above issues have been removed. The Government has made it a policy to remain transparent through the provision of periodic data and briefs so that various key stakeholders are briefed on the process.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that negotiations with the fund have been concluded. We do not have any issues for negotiation. What is being done now is to implement a few actions needed to have the programme approved by the board, which actions I have explained in the first part of the question.

Madam, essentially, restructuring of the debt must be undertaken before the fund considers approving the programme. This is to facilitate financing assurances through a commitment by creditors that they will restructure Zambia’s debt obligations. This process is made to facilitate space in the Budget for Zambia to ensure that funds are available to address poverty and create employment while remaining on course with debt obligations that will remain on the books of Zambia.

Madam, the creditor’s pace of progress, however, is not dependent on the Government’s efforts. It is dependent on creditors agreeing on time. We, however, are ambitious as a country that this issue is resolved as soon as possible within this Budget and in time to have financing assurances included in the 2023 Budget.

Madam Speaker, on what measures are being taken to recover the economy if the bailout package fails, the New Dawn Government does not have a solid plan for the economy in terms of possible failures of the programme – I am sorry. The New Dawn Government does have a solid plan for the economy. There are three documents that give the Government a plan for the economy.

Madam, the first one is the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) which is undergoing approval by Parliament. It has outlined, in the macro-economic chapter what measures are required to restore economic stability, ensure resumption of growth and address fiscal and debt vulnerabilities.

Madam, the second is the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) 2022-2024 and the soon to be published framework for 2023 to 2025 under the Budget. The third is the Budget that reflects the spirit of the documents above.

Madam Speaker, the Government is on track in undertaking collective reform measures.Based on the target set out in our policy documents, we have undertaken the following:

Macro-Economic Stability

Measures taken by the Government have resulted in stability of the exchange rate averaging K17.6 to 1 US$ and a reduction in inflation to 10.3 per cent from an average of almost 24 per cent last year, in August. We are on course to get back inflation in the policy range of 6-8 per cent over the medium term. We have also started building back on foreign exchange reserves and maintenance of the targets of three months of import cover

Economic Growth

The Government has put measures in 2022 to support manufacturing, tourism, agriculture, energy and mining as growth pillars in the economic programme and to drive growth to as high as 7 per cent. Recovery has commenced based on the three sectors in 2022 and is projected to continue in the medium to long term.

Fiscal Management

The fiscal deficit has started reducing in 2022 and is due to reduce to the target of no more than 4 per cent in the medium term. Fiscal decentralisation has also progressed while revenue collection is being enhanced towards 23 per cent of GDP over the medium term. Expenditure is being oriented to high impact areas as outlined in (2) above. We are also addressing the issue of arrears.

Madam, I have given the above as a summary of what the Government is implementing based on the policy documents I have outlined above. However, our economic undertakings will be highly compromised if we do not have strong external support from our partners. The financial support of the multilateral organisations and creditors is cardinal.

Madam Speaker, the flip side of this is to go it alone and negotiate with each creditor based on their willingness and ability. This will result in chaotic agreements that do not speak to any framework that will ensure sustainability.

Madam, the support of the international players will also be lost in the absence of an independent review and international undertaking to stick to economic targets. International support does not come without any serious and credible undertakings. A sub-optimal resolution will disadvantage Zambia and the creditors themselves.

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to take questions from the hon. Members.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: That is the danger of asking open-ended questions. From my observation here, most hon. Members were not listening they were discussing other issues. If we were to give an exam, I believe some hon. Members would not be able to answer.

Laughter

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, you are right. It was very difficult to follow the responses from the hon. Minister. My question will be very general because I could not clearly get his responses.

Mr Mutelo: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the demeanour of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the confidence or the lack of it, with which he delivered this may be a source of worry.

Laughter

Mr Mundubile: Should we be worried that the negotiations with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) are not going well because clearly, he is not giving confidence to the Zambian people with the way that he responded?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane rose.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the reason the hon. Leader of Opposition would have failed the exam on what I said is he was busy chatting and not paying attention.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: In my statement, I said the issues of negotiating with the IMF have been concluded and I said these conclusions were done within four months of this Government coming into office.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: This is something that my brother there and his Government tried from 2015 to 2021. They failed to conclude those discussions for six years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in this Government, in four months, the discussions were concluded. So, the people of Zambia are in good hands.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile rose.

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Leader of the Opposition! It is only one question per hon. Member.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the point of order is pursuant to Standing Order 65. The information the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has given is inaccurate. What remains a fact is that even under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, these negotiations were concluded.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: What remained was the fact that we failed to agree on the issues of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). We refused to agree on the reduction of the number of beneficiaries on FISP. We also refused to agree on the cost reflective tariffs because they were injurious to the Zambian people.

Madam Speaker, the point of order is that it will be very erroneous for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to give an impression as if these negotiations were very difficult to come through. What our hon. Colleagues agreed to, were the harsh conditions. These are conditions that are going to put the Zambian people in hardships. That is the only thing they did. They agreed to the bad terms that we had earlier refused to. I thought that should be put on record.

Is he, therefore, in order to give an impression that the negotiations were not concluded, yet they were? All the New Dawn Government did was just to agree to the bad conditions of the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Leader of the Opposition is disguising his question through a point of order. What we are debating right now is whether the current Government has concluded the negotiations and not what happened previously. Let us avoid going backward because it causes apprehension and hon. Members are forced to respond. So, let us make progress.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, it has been ten months since the New Dawn Government came into office. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has just told us that in four months, it had already concluded the negotiations. I also take note of the fact that nothing has been seen on the ground. He has also mentioned that what is being awaited is the conclusion on the actions to be taken. This conclusion must be with approval by the board of the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Clearly, from that, you can see a serious contradiction. Having said that, my question relates to the third part of the question, which is that what other measures are being taken to recover the economy if the bailout package is not achieved? From what has been said, it seems to me that no progress has been made really.

Madam Speaker, has the Government not looked at other sources of income to grow the economy? I am looking at broadening the tax base by looking at the various mining activities. There are not only the big mining companies but we also have small and medium mining entities. There is gold which is being discovered elsewhere –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, we are supposed to be asking supplementary questions, not debating. Otherwise, debating is taking out the fact that it is a question. It is now a Motion. This is just a question. So, let us ask supplementary questions which are concise and to the point. Hon. Member for Feira, I will give you one more chance ask a precise question to the point.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, thank you for that guidance. I was just about to zero in on it.

Madam Speaker, this IMF issue is very important. Has the Ministry of Finance and National Planning taken that importance to look at other sources of income by broadening the tax base other than just thinking that the IMF will create a panacea for the Zambian economy?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in the first place, I want to state very clearly that our hon. Colleagues never concluded any programme with the IMF. Never!

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, they failed to do that because everybody, including ourselves when we were sitting on your left, said to them that the appetite for endless borrowing which they had would put this country into problems but they did not want to listen. So, the IMF said your problem is that you have borrowed too much. The assistance that you need, in the first instance, is to help you to bring this debt under control. However, how can we help you when today, we say your debt is too high, tomorrow you are busy borrowing again? So, you are not capable of being assisted. That was the attitude of the IMF.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: The IMF said we were not capable of being assisted. That is why it abandoned this country and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Now, let us come back to the issue of what we are trying to do. The first thing that we are trying to do is to deal with the problems of the excessive debts that our hon. Colleagues left this country to. This is why, if you recall, last year this time, we were saying that for every kwacha of tax collected, 80n was being used on paying debt. That is why the PF Government could not hire teachers, nurses, and even salaries sometimes were a problem and there were contractors all over the place who had not been paid, because of the excessive debt that it left.

Madam Speaker, so, then how do we resolve that? The way to resolve debt is to generate confidence in the eyes of the creditors that you are able to manage your finances properly. The stamp of approval of confidence comes from the IMF. When the IMF says this country is now serious, it is no longer joking, but serious, then it gives the stamp of approval that these are serious people.

Madam Speaker, once that is done, the next step is that it goes to the creditors and says: “colleagues, you lent these people money but they were not using the money properly so let us restructure the debt. Let us rearrange the debt so that they are able to pay aback.” Rearranging means that some of the debts will be cut and extended over a period of time, so that what you pay per year is less than what you used to pay before.

Madam Speaker, it is a requirement. The IMF needed to give a stamp of approval that these people are jokers, they are serious. That being the case, we have now moved to the next stage with those creditors now being put together and the discussion starting. The discussions started on 16^th June, 2022. We are waiting for the next one. So, very soon, we will get agreements where these creditors will be able to agree and say give Zambia relief. So, the problem that the PF left behind now will be solved.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, what is the next question after solving this debt crisis. Remember it is the debt crisis that moved the exchange rate from K5 to 1US$ to K24, where we found it at. It is the debt crisis which created inflation. The PF found it at about 7 per cent to 8 per cent and left it at 24 per cent. It is the debt crisis. These are the issues that we are trying to solve, which the PF left behind.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: The next thing is how we now create income in the country.

Madam Speaker, the very first thing, again, is to solve the problem that they left behind. The biggest industry in this country is the mining sector. It is the mining sector that gives us foreign exchange; it is the mining sector that gives contractors. When the mining sector is doing well, everybody in the economy does well. We know that. Unfortunately, when other countries, including our neighbours, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), when they were growing their mining sector, remember, twelve years ago, the DRC was only producing half of the amount of copper that Zambia was producing. Half. Today, Congo produces double the amount of copper that we are producing. Why has this been the case? Why has this happened? It is because right from the word go, these hon. Colleagues felt that the copper industry is something that needed to be killed.

Hon. PF. Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, to give examples, under the previous Government, the Value Added Tax (VAT) which was supposed to be refunded to the mining sector to reinvest like what the Congolese do to double production, they left behind more than US$1 billion unpaid. That amount was taken away from the mining sector. Is that not killing the mining sector?

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, we all know what has happened to Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc; it was left in total shambles. They put people there whom we cannot talk much about because you know it is now a legal issue. We want to know –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: In short, Madam Speaker, instead of the Government promoting the mining industry like what the Congolese did, our Government was actually killing the mining industry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: These are the issues that we are trying to resolve now –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, you heard recently –

Madam Speaker: There is a point of order being raised, hon. Minister. The Leader of the Opposition may raise the point of order.

Mr Mundubile: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We tried to restrain ourselves, but we realised that the hon. Minister was going haywire. The hon. Minister alleges that the Patriotic Front (PF) regime endeavoured to kill the mining industry.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mundubile: That is not true. Madam Speaker, the point here is, it is a decision to choose between the plight of the poor Zambians and the elite mining companies. As we speak now, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has given tax holidays, de facto tax holidays by allowing –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Leader of the Opposition, order! Please, when you are raising a point of order, stick to stating the regulation or rule that has been breached, or rule of procedure that has been breached. We are turning this question and answer session into a debate session of stating a point and responding. That way, we are not going to make progress. As I guided earlier on, let us stick to what is happening now. If we continue going back, we are going to raise controversy. So, let us stick to the question. The question is very clear; I do not know why we are going outside what the question is. The hon. Member for Kantanshi who has asked the question has not even been given an opportunity to ask a follow up question. So, if we are not going to concentrate –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

If we are not going to concentrate and listen to the questions and answers that are being provided, we will make progress and move to the next item.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, I do not know if with that guidance, the Leader of the Opposition still wants to raise a point of order.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I just want to wind up my point of order. This is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. The hon. Minister alleged that the PF Government was killing the mining sector. My point was, our decision being a pro-poor Government, was to choose between the rich mining houses and the poor Zambians.

The UPND Government, Madam Speaker, has given de facto tax holidays by allowing mineral royalty to be deductible. There is no real saving of those mines. What we have done is continue begging from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). We have a begging bowl directed to the IMF when we are giving away billions of dollars through mineral royalties. So, it is a question of priorities. It is, therefore, opportune for us to put on record that there was no effort or intention at all to kill the mining industry. What we did was balance the interest of the citizens and those of the investors.

Is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, therefore, in order to mislead the nation by saying that we wanted to kill the mining industry, yet all we wanted was the best for the Zambian people?

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

That is the problem of raising a point of order and then providing answers and debating. Since the hon. Leader of the Opposition has sufficiently debated and provided answers as he understands them, the point of order will not be admitted.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Chinsali also wants to raise a point of order, what is the point of order?

Mr Mukosa: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, which is Content of Speech, and says that a member who is debating shall ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.

 

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was providing a response to the question, he indicated that from every K1 that was being collected, 80n was being spent on paying debt. That is the reason the Patriotic Front (PF) was not employing teachers and nurses.

Madam Speaker, if you check the record, you are going to realise and find that the PF employed nurses and teachers.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mukosa: Those details –

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Chinsali, order!

Please, let us not raise points of order upon points of order. Also, let us not raise points of order in order to contradict what the hon. Minister has said. As I indicated, this is not a Motion, where you can counter answers and responses.

Mr Mukosa: It is because he is misleading the House, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No, hon. Member.

Mr Mukosa: And the nation.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chinsali, you are out of order.

The hon. Minister had not concluded his response, may the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I will conclude now within a few seconds. I was saying that once the economy stabilises, as it is stabilising now, the next step is to create spots where income generation will grow. I was talking about the mining sector, that within a few months of coming into office, you heard the announcement by yourself, that there is an investment of US1.25 billion by First Quantum Minerals Ltd. This is something that you never heard in the last ten years.

Madam Speaker, there are so many other people who are interested in coming now contrary to the previous situation whereby company after company was thinking of selling. Our actions in all this were for the sake of the Zambian people, ...

Mr Mundubile: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: ... whereas for the PF, their actions were for the purpose of the individual PF Members.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. Member: You are politicking, iwe!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, audits are being done. We want to know those members of the PF who were given responsibilities. We want to know who was given contracts, who was being paid and which friends were being paid. When that information comes out, it will be shocking. It will show very clearly that those actions were not for the public interest but for the interest of the PF members.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. PF Whip, just give me a moment. I will call on you.

I have already guided that if this question is going to attract disruption of business in the House, we are going to skip it and go to the next question. I wanted to give chance to the hon. Member for Kantanshi to ask a question but he has not indicated. Maybe, he does not have any. So, let us proceed and listen the hon. Opposition Whip.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am Opposition Whip for the Patriotic Front (PF), which has been drawn into the debate. I think the hon. Minister should have been guided that when he puts information –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, what is the point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I will start with the point of order, and then pose a question to the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker: We can have one item at a time.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, let me deal with the point of order now and then wait for my slot to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 is very clear, that the information we share here must be factual and backed by–

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: The problem is our hon. Colleagues are still thinking they are still on the left side of the House.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: They are forgetting that they are now in Government.

Madam Speaker: Order!

I think, for the sake of progress, I have an order paper to attend to. This session is closed. Let us go to the next one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

ONLINE CAR-HAILING SERVICES

341. Mr Mumba asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics:

         (a)   whether the Government is aware that compelling online car-hailing services to register with Road Transport and Safety

                 Agency (RTSA) is stifling youth innovation and hindering the growth of small and medium businesses;

         (b)   if so, what measures are being taken to ensure that online car-hailing services are not adversely affected by the registration

                 process; and

          (c)  what measures are being taken to enhance electronic communication technology innovations in the transport sector.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, the Government is not against the online car-hailing services and has no intentions whatsoever to stifle youth innovation or the growth of small and medium businesses.

Madam Speaker, the converse is what is actually true, that the Government’s interest is to ensure that the online car-hailing services operate under a well defined regulatory framework which is backed by law. The existing regulatory framework was designed for conventional taxi operations and not online ride-hailing operations. Hence applying such regulatory framework to online car-hailing operations has proved a challenge. Most of the vehicles registered on the online applications may fall off if the law is to be applied strictly.

Madam Speaker, the Government is undertaking all the necessary consultations with relevant stakeholders and is in the process of issuing tailor-made regulations to accommodate the operations of online car-hailing operators in Zambia, while at the same time ensuring that appropriate taxes are paid to the Government. The Government will, therefore, issue Statutory Instruments (SIs) that will address these matters. The House is requested to note that the Government will not put a deadline to the consultative process in order to do it right. The Government, will, therefore, allow online car-hailing services to continue operating under the status quo until the regulations are issued.

Madam Speaker, the Government is cognisant of the role that technology is playing in facilitating business development and growth. It has and will continue to put in place policies and legislations that embrace the use of Information and Communications Technology (ICTs) in the transport and logistics sector. The Government is in the process of revising the ICT Policy of 2006 and developing the Digital Transformation Strategy and the National Logistics Strategy which imbed the use of ICTs in service delivery.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask supplementary questions. I emphasise, supplementary questions, not debates.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the people of Luena will strictly ask a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, it is gratifying that the hon. Minister has responded so quickly to the situation that was quickly getting out of control. The introduction of taxi online-hailing services is, indeed, a great innovation. I am happy to hear that the Government is soon going to introduce a Statutory Instrument (SI) in order to enable the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) to catch up with the technology as it is currently applied in the transport sector.

Madam Speaker: Order! Ask supplementary questions, hon. Member.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, my question is: in the Statutory Instrument that we are expecting, will the Government also consider revisiting the requirements for Public Service Vehicle (PSV) registration in order to allow many pirate taxis that are operating in Lusaka to easily be captured in order to enhance or increase opportunities for our youths to participate in that sector?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, allow me to state here, that what we have before us is a clear and present situation where online taxi operators were about to be adversely affected by the directive by RTSA. As a listening Government, we have quickly put in place interventions where we have asked RTSA to call a stakeholders meeting so that all the issues surrounding this particular matter may be dealt with holistically. May I further just add that there have been other interventions regarding pirate taxis, where we have already pounced, as a Government, for instance, the lowering of the age at which these taxi drivers may obtain their licenses and I think that is the process that is already on-going. As for now, the case in casu being, dealing with online taxi operators and this is what I have just pronounced.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses. However, I want to find out something about the two online taxi companies; Ulendo and Yango. Ulendo has been in existence for over one and half to two years.

Madam, what does the hon. Minister think motivated the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) to make such a decision and even set 1^st July, 2022 as the date at which all these activities that are happening under these two companies come to an end. This announcement was made last week, yet Ulendo has been existing and contributing to the economy through paying of taxes and so on and so forth. What does the hon. Minister think motivated RTSA, which is under his ministry, to do that?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kantanshi once again for, indeed, a good question. Let me state here that, I think that issues of competition may have contributed to the current debacle in so far as how these transporting companies are operating. I wish to agree with the hon. Member that yes, Ulendo has been a pioneering this particular service. Being pioneers, we are coming from a stage where the service was not as popular. Allow me to say that this is a service that has become extremely popular and convenient to the citizens to the effect that those operators who are still operating as registered taxis have felt the blunt of the effectiveness of this particular online taxi services.

I think that being stakeholders, they may have complained about the unfair practices, but on the one hand, other operators are compelled to pay their tax obligations through certain registration fees whereas on the other hand, the online operating taxis were getting away minus remitting the necessary revenues to the Government. I think that this debate has ensued and RTSA in its wisdom felt compelled to play its role to help the Government in raising revenue by issuing that ultimatum. Suffice to say that perhaps, it was not well thought through, and this is why we have come to this stage where we have to intervene and create a win-win situation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I am sitting in a place which is a bit far from the microphone, sorry for the slight delay.

Madam Speaker just to ask the hon. Minister to advise on what the Government is expressly doing in addressing the negative impact that Yango and Ulendo have brought on the existing taxis that are regulated and registered in terms of profitability. I ask this question because this has impacted negatively on these small scale entrepreneurs.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, as the world is evolving, players in different sectors ought to be able to evolve with the times. We cannot run away from the influence of technology on the ease of doing business particularly if it is offering an impeccable service to the citizens out there. The citizens are more than happy that in the comfort of their living room, on a hand held mobile device, they are able to call for a taxi and that these taxis are so affordable where now it perhaps may have exposed those regular taxi operators who may have been exploiting the consumer and customer.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayali: Therefore, time has come for even those operators to wake up and equally innovate as to how they should survive in the current climate.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. It was very worrying that an innovation was going to be killed because of one or two players who are scared of competition. What is critical is that the only reason we do not have the dinosaur is because the dinosaur refused to adapt. So, in levelling the playing field, there are those companies which refuse or are unable to adapt. So, if you fail to adapt, you face extinction. I think it will be detrimental, especially in an environment where we are all migrating towards e-service etcetra, to kill such an innovation. What is critical is a legal framework and what model we use. With that said, when do we see this legal framework coming into place?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, please let us not debate.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank my brother, the hon. Member. If he was paying particular attention, he would have noted that I did state first and foremost, that we are not going to put a cap or a limit as to when and how long the consultative process should take, but also what we have said is that we are also going to allow the online service providers for taxi operations to continue unabated in their business. What we want to come up with is a holistic approach taking into account all the factors that the stakeholders may bring. So, kindly, permit me not to pre-empt that process because it is not cast in concrete. As a listening Government, this New Dawn Administration wants to continue to work closely with stakeholders such as the ones we are referring to so that we come up with a workable solution that is going to benefit all the parties including those that may be in danger of extinction.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE EIGHTH NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN 2022-2026

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Eighth National Development Plan for the period 2022 – 2026, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 24^th June, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its mandate, as contained in Standing Order No. 186(b), the Select Committee scrutinised the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). This inquiry was premised on the fact that the National Planning and Budgeting Act No. 1 of 2020 has now made it a requirement, in Section 23, that the national development plan be approved by the National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, the Government revised the process of national development planning, as a guide to the country’s development agenda in 2003.  Since then, Zambia has implemented the Fifth, Sixth and the Seventh National Development plans. These plans were all building blocks to actualising Zambia’s Vision 2030, which is a long-term perspective plan aimed at attaining a prosperous middle income nation status by 2030.

Madam, Speaker, as already mentioned, the National Planning and Budgeting Act provides that the Minister of Finance and National Planning shall lay before the National Assembly, the national development plan for approval.  In this regard, following approval of the plan by the Cabinet at its eighth special meeting held on 31^st March, 2022, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presented the plan to the National Assembly for approval.

Madam Speaker, the Government has developed the 8NDP, which is themed ‘Socio-Economic Transformation for Improved Livelihoods’. The plan is expected to drive the country’s developmental agenda for a five-year period from 2022 to 2026.  This is the first plan to be developed under the provisions of the National Planning and Budgeting Act, No. 1 of 2020, which was enacted to, among others, strengthen the Parliamentary oversight function by providing for the involvement of the National Assembly at various stages of formulation and implementation of the plan.

Madam Speaker, to acquaint itself with the topic under review, your Committee interacted with several stakeholders, who tendered both written and oral submissions before it.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that hon. Members have already perused through your Committee’s report. Therefore, I shall endeavour to highlight only a few salient issues that emanated from your Committee’s engagement with stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me state that your Committee recommends that the House approves the 8NDP.  Its support is premised on the fact that stakeholders acknowledged that the development of the plan met the acceptability standard, was in conformity with the law and met the benchmarks required of any national development plan.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the approval of the plan, your Committee made observations and recommendations, some of which I shall now highlight.

Madam Speaker, your Committee noted that the plan is progressive, as it covers four strategic development areas, which include economic transformation and job creation, human and social development, environmental sustainability and good governance. These pillars have taken into account the major factors required for development. 

Madam Speaker, it is important to note that strategic development area No. 3, which is on environmental sustainability, has been crafted as a stand-alone strategic development area for the first time. Your Committee perceives this as a very important milestone.

Madam Speaker, your Committee appreciates the measures put in the plan to manage public debt and the anticipated outcomes, including corresponding strategies and programmes in achieving the objectives.  However, while noting the financing mechanisms of implementing the plan, your Committee notes, with concern, the inadequacy of the debt management measures aimed at tackling the current debt burden. Your Committee fears that the country risks accumulating more debt in its effort to implement the plan in the absence of sufficient debt management measures.  

Madam Speaker, your Committee is also aware that the Loans and Guarantees (Authorisation) Act of 1969 has been undergoing  review for more than five years with no clear indication when it will be presented to the in National Assembly for amendment. Your Committee expresses concern at the excessive delay by the Executive in concluding the review of the Act and it fears that in the absence of legislation guiding on the process for debt contraction, the debt level may get worse than it is at present.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that, as a matter of urgency and to sustainably manage the current debt quagmire, the Government provides more practical measures to manage the debt situation even as the plan is being implemented by amending the Loans and Guarantees (Authorisation) Act. Further, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government does not deviate from the path that it has carved out for itself to dismantle the current debt. 

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that although various national development plans have been implemented previously, the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy has been marred with serious challenges.  Your Committee acknowledges and appreciates the increase in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) from the K1.6 million per constituency to K25.7 million. However, it is of the strong view that the increase in itself does not lead to the effective implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. The absence of decentralisation of functions is evident from the non-utilisation of the released CDF in the first quarter of the 2022 Financial Year due to administrative challenges, among others.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, your Committee is of the view that to attain the development outcome on improved policy and governance in the plan, the Government should devolve more functions to the local authorities in addition to the fiscal component outlined in the programmes. The Government should further ensure strong oversight and accountability structures are put in place in the local authorities.

Madam Speaker, another issue of concern is the absence of a specific objective on job creation in the plan. While your Committee commends the Government for the numerous interventions provided in the plan aimed at creating jobs to transform the livelihoods of the Zambian people, it notes, with concern, the lack of clarity on the number of jobs to be created.  Your Committee wonders how the quality and quantity of the jobs to be created will be ascertained.

Madam Speaker, recognising the complexity of the measures and the number of jobs to be created, your Committee implores the Government to ensure that the implementation plan gives an estimate of the number of jobs to be created, which should also be disaggregated by sectors.  This will facilitate monitoring and evaluation mechanisms in the quantity and quality of jobs.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me take this opportunity to thank you for the guidance rendered to your Committee during the Session.  I also thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the invaluable support and services rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

Last, but not the least, my gratitude goes to all stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before Your Committee. 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying I will focus my debate on three issues out of the many concerns that were raised by stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes a lack of incentives for artisanal mining. This is worrisome especially that the Government is on record as having stated, on many occasions, that it does not want to leave anyone behind. In this regard, your Committee is concerned that the plan has not adequately taken care of local participation, through provision of modalities that will enhance access to finance for acquiring the necessary equipment.

As you may be aware, Madam Speaker, artisanal mining is a critical source of rural employment. Therefore, your Committee is of the strong view that facilitating financing for the artisanal mining subsector is a key to improving access to appropriate equipment for small-scale mining. In this vein, your Committee strongly recommends that in order to formalise the subsector, lower the barriers to entry for locals, increase operational efficiency and maximise profit, the plan should include a programme for financing of artisanal and small-scale miners.

Madam Speaker, another issue of concern is the absence of the interventions for small-scale farmers. While the Government has recognised that agriculture is one of the drivers of the economic diversification agenda, there is an absence of programmes deliberately targeted at small-scale farmers, including access to financing by this group of economic actors. Your Committee recognises the remarkable potential of small-scale farming in food security, creation employment provision of household income and alleviating of rural poverty.

In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government should incorporate strategies in the plan to promote smallholder agriculture as a business and provide an environment for smallholder farmers to undertake profitable farming activities in the agriculture sector. Further, considering the homogeneity of small-scale farmers, your Committee strongly recommends the inclusion of financing for small-scale farmers, as a standalone programme in the Plan.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to comment on the issue of Comprehensive Sexuality Education (CSE). Your Committee notes with great concern that throughout the plan, Sexual and Reproductive Health Rights (SRHR) of adolescents and young people have not been prioritised. This is despite the plan acknowledging that majority of Zambia’s population comprises young people, with approximately 80 per cent of the population aged below thirty-five years, while those aged fifteen years make up 46 per cent of the population. While noting the provision of the Family Planning Programme (FPP) in the plan, your Committee contends that it is insufficient to address reproductive health issues affecting the young people.

In this regard, Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly recommends that the plan should be responsive to the population dynamics and distribution and provide deliberate programmes aimed at addressing the sexual productive health needs of young people.

Maddm Speaker, in conclusion, let me take this opportunity to thank you for the guidance rendered to your Committee during the session. I also thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the invaluable support and services rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

Lastly, but not the least, my gratitude goes to all stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to make very few comments on the Motion ably moved by Hon. Chaatila and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mfuwe, on the Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) for the period 2022-2026.

Madam Speaker, indeed, we commend the hon. Minister for finally bringing the 8NDP to this august House, although it may seem to be work in reverse. We raised this matter on this side of House when we were considering the Budget. We said we were breaching the law. This august House should be the last to breach its own laws, which it passes. So, we are grateful that the hon. Minister has come to normalise the situation.

Madam Speaker, the national development plan as provided for in the National Planning and Budgeting Act, is supposed to be the guide for national development. Therefore, all the planning and budgeting must be done as sequenced in the Act.

Madam, let me briefly talk about the challenges as highlighted by your Committee, following the submission of the Chairperson. He was very clear when your Committee looked at the issue of the Decentralisation Policy. Your Committee is of the view that the policy has been marred with serious challenges and that, if it is not equally implemented, we shall be going round in circles.

Madam Speaker, I was standing right here where I am, when my hon. Colleagues were celebrating the increment of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) as a panacea to the development challenges in our nation. I stood here and said, yes, it is a welcome idea. The figure has been increased, but if we do not put structures on the ground to implement this fund, we are going to have challenges. I have been vindicated, a few months after that, and here we are. So, when we are advising our hon. Colleagues on your right, we mean well. Because, if this country is developing, our people are the benefactors of development. So, there is no need for us to be antagonistic in so far as development is concerned. So, we need to understand that when we are making these submissions, which are critical, our hon. Colleagues must appreciate and understand the context in which we put them.

Madam Speaker, funding programmes, as I have said, must be structured. If you give someone too much money and he/she has no plan, you should be assured that money will go to waste.

Madam Speaker, what is key is that we shall approve this national development plan, but we need the necessary tools to implement it. I will repeat what I said. The Decentralisation Policy is very cardinal. Indeed, we have structures on the ground, but the challenge has been sending matching resources to them. We could have done well ourselves, but it is up to our colleagues to do it even better because, in the absence of structures, you can disburse finances, but they will still be stuck, just as we are struggling with the CDF now.

Madam, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should know that it is not too late. Whilst we want to move speedily, both hon. Members on your right and left share a common position in so far as the CDF is concerned. We all cannot wait for this money to hit the ground. We cannot wait to see development, but let us do the right things first. Let us deal with the bottlenecks and ensure that the Decentralisation Policy is equally being implemented, as we are implementing this plan. Further, let us ensure that matching resources are trickling down. In the end, what has happened now is that everybody is waiting for the CDF. When it is not being disbursed, it affects everyone.

Madam Speaker, my plea to the hon. Minister, now that he is normalising the situation in line with the Act, is that we put the necessary tools on the ground so that he makes our work easier and we, in turn, make the work of the Government easier. We do not want to get the implementing agencies dragged back and forth by the Auditor-General for things that they could have avoided. Let us streamline the procurement processes and ensure that the implementing agency, which is the local government, is given the necessary manpower. Moving people around from one council to another is not a solution. We want to have manpower in all key areas of local governance.

Madam, in agreeing with your Committee and the observations it has made, we are going to support the adoption of this report, but what is key is the implementation. We can adopt the report here and put the document away on a shelf to gather dust, but it will count for nothing after five years when our hon. Colleagues will be asked to account for their achievements.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to support the adoption of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

Madam Speaker, the 8NDP looks, to me, like the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) edited, in some sense, to the detriment of poor people and in support of rich people. This is the only problem that the Patriotic Front (PF) has with the United Party for National Development (UPND). The PF created a pillar which supported the poor people in developmental inequalities.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this plan has four strategic development areas, which were called pillars in the 7NDP. These four areas do not include the reduction of developmental inequalities.

Madam, you have seen a lot of development taking place in rural areas arising from the 7NDP …

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kafwaya: … because there was a focus there. We have seen many health posts constructed and telecommunication towers erected in rural areas because of our focus on the poor people.

Madam Speaker, let me be more specific to this particular plan. Under Strategic Development area No. 1, which is Economic Diversification and Job Creation, the first strategy is to increase agricultural production and productivity. There are no specific support activities to small-scale farmers in this plan, and your Committee takes note of that. There are no market development strategies and your Committee also takes note of that.

Madam, now, why should people produce more when they are not being assisted to access markets and are not being shown how their production will be facilitated? This is why I am saying this plan has eliminated some important information which needed to guide Government efforts.

Madam Speaker, strategy number two is to promote traditional and non-traditional minerals. To begin with, those are the wrong words to choose because minerals, whether they are gems or copper, have been in our soil since the creation of this earth. So, how can some minerals be traditional and others non-traditional? Their mining is what may be referred to as traditional because copper mining has been found to be easier. So, the nomenclature used here is inept.

Madam, putting away the issue of nomenclature, what should be stated is what is being done to facilitate the mining of minerals other than copper. This plan is not talking about capital packages for artisanal miners. It is not talking about technology packages or monitoring and evaluation. Artisanal miners want to hear what the Government is going to do in terms of creating geographical maps so that they can be able to assess the environmental areas that have these deposits. However, the plan is not talking about anything to do with creating information, which is going to help our people make decisions.

Madam Speaker, I am personally going to support the plan because it is complying with the law. However, a bad plan like this one will plunge the UPND into chaos. Since it is complying with the law, which was created by the PF in goodwill, I will support it.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam, it is my advice to the UPND Government to consider adjusting this plan because it is clearly not speaking to the plight of the poor people. It is speaking to the plight of the rich people.

Madam Speaker, on job creation, the mover there, my hon. Colleague, said that there are no targets. He said that the Government will create jobs without targets. So, how will it be held accountable? This is why people now think politicians are experts at misleading people. The Government should put targets. How many jobs will it create, what is the quality of those jobs and in what sectors are the jobs going to be created? The Government cannot just speak theoretically. It cannot be theoretical.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: If the Government is theoretical in its plan, will it be able to implement it? At the end of five years, the UPND will be in a situation whereby it will have no way of accounting to the Zambian people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, from the onset, I would like to thank the mover of the Motion, the hon. Member for Moomba and the seconder, the hon. Member for Mfuwe.

Madam Speaker, it has been said time and again that those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. Your Committee has done a tremendous job in noting the shortcomings of the proposed Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). However, they should have extended by also mentioning that we have never heard of a development plan review. Zambia has been hailed and praised in the region and in Africa for coming up with one of the best development plans from the fifth, sixth, seventh and now the eighth. However, there has never been a review of the short comings of the preceding development plans. As such it seems that most of these plans are cast in concrete. It is an edit of the previous plan.

Madam Speaker, I would like to submit that from a policy position, there is a need to know why these plans do not work in full. For example, the plan talks about debt restructuring and how we must access consensual debt from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), which I support from a party position as the Party for National Unity and Progress. However, it does not address one elephant in the room. The bloated Civil Service wage bill is not addressed in the plan because 30 per cent of the Budget goes to debt servicing and 50 per cent is for the Civil Service wage bill and so, you remain with 20 per cent social sector spending. That is note sustainable for any country that should have an ambitious target of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth. Therefore, it is very important that when this plan is fully actualised, what is the plan on public sector reforms in terms of the bloated Civil Service wage bill? This is because we cannot continue to have a wage bill of over 50 per cent and 30 per cent debt servicing, and the 8NDP speaks nothing about that. The two issues this country has are debt and this wage bill.

Madam Speaker, when you look at the absence of having a review of the plan, you will see that the structural and institutional frameworks which are the main executers of this plan have lapses. That is why we have issues today with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) because we have a situation where money is available but then there is no document to get a loan. The money is sitting at the account, but there is no constituency sitting with a template of how someone should apply for a loan. That is why these plans must be reviewed, to identify the gaps so that we avoid repetitive mistakes.

Madam Speaker, on page 6 of this report, your Committee talks about increased export of commodities in the agriculture sector, but it does not talk of value added products. Why then, do we have the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, which should drive the agro processing sector if the plan that should drive the economic framework does not speak about agro processing? I would be happy if we talked about cotton farming and we are thinking of re-opening Mulungushi Textiles. I would be happy if we talked about exporting avocados but then, we must process avocadoes from here before we export them. That is why the ministry is there. So, this whole plan does not speak of the key ministry which His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema should be commended for introducing. It is a very important ministry but it appears nowhere in the 8NDP.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, so we need to understand that diversification of the economy cannot remain to be rhetorical. We need to process our products. We cannot continue to be importing mango concentrates. Mango is rotting in the Western Province. We are importing pineapple concentrates. There are plenty pineapples in Ikeleng’i. That is why my expectation was that the 8NDP would speak to the Ministry Small and Medium Enterprise Development but I have not seen that. This is an opportunity, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to have a clear plan on diversification of the economy. Further, this development plan in the mining sector only talks about copper, 1.3 million metric tons.

Madam Speaker, we now have gold in Kasenseli. Surely, there is no target of how much gold we should mine. We cannot have a full Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development only talking about copper. The report that was submitted here by the Committee responsible for mines was talking about an alternative from copper. So, this development plan must have targets of other minerals, and value addition that must speak to the Ministry Small and Medium Enterprise Development. We must process our minerals here. What is the appetite of exporting the mineral other than having it processed here?

Madam Speaker, I do not understand that appetite. It is a fundamental digression of the agenda of development, which must trickle down to the people.

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, when it comes to issues of good governance, this report says nothing about the financial flaws. The Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) report is speaking about financial flaws. So, I am urging the New Dawn Government to listen to the debates of hon. Members on your left. We must end these politics where someone who is being objective is seen as opposing. What I am saying is that the report says the youth make up 80 per cent of the population in Zambia, yet it says nothing about the youth.

Madam Speaker, we should not have these reports that are cast in concrete. We revise the fifth; it becomes the sixth and the seventh. The hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics spoke about changing with the times. Therefore, in supporting the report of your Committee, I would like to urge the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to add some practicability to this plan. This is because it does not speak about revenue growth in terms of the practical inflows of cash to address the fundamental ills of the economy, and this is contained in the report. It is not coming from me. It is not coming from my conscience. I am barely reading what is in this report.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I submit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Orders 65, which indicates that we should give factual statements in this House.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate greatly, the beautiful debate from my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member for Nalolo. However, is he in order not to indicate that actually, the Government of Zambia is processing pineapples in the North-Western Province? The Government of Zambia through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) has put up a number of plants. For example, there is one in Katete which is going to be processing fruits of all types in order to add value.

Madam Speaker, I think we need to guide the House. People are listening and they should know the truth. Is the hon. Member, who has been debating very well, in order to mislead himself slightly by indicating that the Government is not putting up processing plants and add value?

Madam Speaker: By way of guidance to the Executive, let us take down the issues that we want to respond to, and when it is time for us to respond, we will be able to answer those questions and clarify those points that have been erroneously or are allegedly been raised erroneously out of context. So, we leave that for rebuttal.

The hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa may take the Floor.

Mr Mwambazi was inaudible.

Madam Speaker: If he is not available, the hon. Member for Mbabala may take the Floor.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for this opportunity given to the people of Mbabala to contribute to the debate on the Motion moved by your wonderful Committee, which is led by Hon. Chaatila. I also thank the seconder.

Madam Speaker, development planning is very crucial. If you do not plan, any road will lead you anywhere. As such, I wish to commend your Committee for a job well done in scrutinising the Eight National Development Plan (ENDP) and coming up with wonderful recommendations. The plan, is, indeed, anchored on the wonderful theme of “Socio-Economic Transformation for Improved Livelihoods.” This is because all of us are looking forward to quality life, and quality life can only be enjoyed if each and every household has the basic needs that are needed for one to survive. These basic needs include simple things such as water, electricity and food, things that have been provided for in this wonderful plan.

Madam Speaker, the plan is anchored on four strategic directions that are wonderful in that these tally with the address by His Excellency, President Hakainde to this House late last year. When he opened Parliament, he gave us strategic directions on which the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government was elected. The UPND Government was elected based on the manifesto that was sold to the Zambian people. Therefore, the targets and the benchmarks of success are very clear to the Zambian people because those are contained in the UPND manifesto, on which their votes were based, and that is the manifesto they will be reviewing after five years. That manifesto has now led to the formulation of the ENDP, where the President and, indeed, Cabinet and the entire Government have put strategic directions to strengthen economic transformation through agriculture, tourism, manufacturing and other related activities.

Madam, the plan has human and social development activities that are going to spearhead education, health and related activities. It factors in environmental sustainability because we care for the future generations unlike in the past regime when the mukula tree and other natural resources were being seriously depleted in the country. Our Government has put a very clear plan that is going to mitigate this situation and that is going to support sustainable development as evidenced by the creation of the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment headed by an excellent gentleman as hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, good governance remains a pillar of our strategic plan. As you may have seen, the country has finally settled; it has moved away from the bad, ruffian behaviour that was previously associated with this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: Madam, as citizens, we are now being ruled with respect, and as a result, this plan is setting the tone. This plan has set a good dashboard which can be measured. Those who wish to measure, the plan has clearly indicated that the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) will be achieved at 4.5 per cent, reduce the fiscal deficit to 3.6 per cent and other targets such as inflation at 6 per cent to 8 per cent, dismantle the arrears and reduce external debt. We are aware, Madam Speaker, that external debt actually choked this country. This country was left on its deathbed on 21^st August. Now, we have a clear plan that is saying that we are going to reduce external debt to 60 per cent. These are clear matrices; these are clear targets that can be measured. It is now the duty of the various line ministries to operationalise this plan so that we can have annual targets and annual plans that meet and contribute to these major targets.

Madam Speaker, the dismantling of arrears means that we are going to have liquidity for our people; the various suppliers, unlike those suppliers who were supplying air in the past regime, now we are going to be dismantling arrears of people who are supplying actual goods and services to the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, we are, therefore, growing the economy. We are taking the economy forward.

Madam Speaker, this plan is responding to the aspirations of the people of Mbabala Constituency. On infrastructure development, it has talked about road development, opening new roads such as the Sumaubi/Linda Road, which will need to be opened, and other roads. There are also bridges that will be fixed as a result of this plan. Dams, such as Namuhila Dam, will need to be fixed by this plan. The health centres in all the wards need attention.

Madam Speaker, with regards to education, this plan is talking about infrastructure in the education sector and increasing classroom space in line with population growth. This country’s population is growing; we are now above 19 million. So, we cannot continue with the same infrastructure space in schools. The people of Mang’unza in Mbabala Constituency desire desks and other materials, laboratories, etcetera, and that is what this plan is bringing about. It is bringing about water and sanitation.

Madam Speaker, on agriculture, in the area of livestock management in particular, with the capable hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock, we are going to curb animal diseases. This is what this plan is answering to the people of Mbabala. We want our herds of cattle to grow. We want all the people in Lugwalo, in Kalindi, in Malindi, who are looking after cattle to feel and be part and parcel of this plan by virtue of what it is offering them. Therefore, I can only call on Parliament to do its annual review and ensure that we have the various Committees of Parliament scrutinise annually the plans and progress so that we can know the progress that is being made.

With these remarks, Madam Speaker, I wish to also say that the review of this plan needs to be married with the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). We have just come from a workshop on the same. So, let us marry these and work them out together.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Ms Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. I also wish to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I wish to add a few comments to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. I will go straight to the point of strengthening national data and information systems. I am actually very delighted that right now on television, there is an advertisement that we are going to have a census in this country. I think that is the starting point of everything. We are about to get statistics. Do we really know how many we are in Zambia? Could it be 18 million, 19 million, 22 million?

So, once again, once we have a census in place, we can also have the Credit Reference Bureau (CRB). The CRB is very important because it can help us in so many ways. It can help with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) committees that are making co-operatives. It will help with the Social Cash Transfer Fund because every person in this country would be on that data base. The CRB also plays an important role in economic growth and stability. The National Registration Cards (NRCs) data base should also amount to something. If today, I give my NRC number to anybody, will you find out more information about me? Do you know where I live? Do you know my phone number? All that will be very important to strengthen national data. Let us get our NRCs to a point where, once given, if you owe money or if you have committed a crime, your NRC number should come up. All that will assist.

Madam Speaker, we continue to look into the diversification of crop production. In Zambia, we mostly look at maize, soya beans, groundnuts and other products. However, all these crops are mostly grown by subsistence farmers who are still using a pick or a hoe to cultivate their fields. If they are lucky, they will have a few herds of cattle to help them. Improved agricultural technology is very important. Instead of planting on a 1 ha piece of land, subsistence farmers can get down to planting on a 20 ha piece of land.

Madam Speaker, the Government should also establish farming blocks in each district because they can help the country to secure a market for the agriculture sectors. For instance, Ukraine and Russia are prominent players in the global trade of food and agriculture. Even if the crisis between the two countries ended today, impact that the crisis has had on food and agriculture is long lasting impact. As Zambia, where do we stand? Zambia should not only look at exporting to Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), but look at exporting to the rest of the world. How can this come into place? We need availability of products, quality control and stock for the nation as well as for export.

Madam, farming blocks are the way to go because they can also help in empowering the youths with employment. Farming blocks will also have access to each and every area of the country. For instance, if you talk about the Northern Province, we can plant beans, groundnuts, soya beans as well as potatoes. Other provinces are also strong and capable of growing other vegetables. Let us look at wheat, as an example. We are not so big on wheat in Zambia, yet it is one of the products with a good yield and can give us enough exports. As we look at agriculture, let us, as a country, ensure it is not just on paper. Let us put policies in place that help the majority of subsistence farmers.

Madam Speaker, as the results show, the 8NDP is also directly aligned to the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) which also have to be effected by 2030. So, the two go hand in hand.

Madam Speaker, I support the Motion. I thank you.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, thank you for according the people of Mwandi an opportunity to have a say on the Motion on the Floor. I also want to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, let me make mention that we support the Motion that is currently on the Floor. As other hon. Members were debating, they made reference to the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP). As you make a plan, there should be pronouncements and strategies that should be employed to support the plan. I heard hon. Members debating on the Floor talk about how good the 7NDP was, and I agree, it was very good. However, just two weeks ago, it was in this Parliament where we heard about over 180 assurances that were not honoured. So, in as much as we make plans, we should also be able to make plans that we are able to deliver to the Zambian people.

Madam Speaker, these plans should also be married to the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). Let me actually start with the first SDG which calls for an end to poverty. By the pronouncements of the United Party for National Development (UPND), you can see that it has already put measures in place to end poverty. Why am I saying so? It will be done through economic transformation and job creation. How are we doing that? It is through CDF. As hon. Members are debating the CDF today, I am taken aback. Today, I can challenge any hon. Member in this House that as we go back to our constituencies, let us go and tell the people that we want to take CDF back to K1.6 million and see how the people on the ground are going to react. Let us also go back and tell them that from today onwards, there will be no skills development in our constituencies and see what the reaction of the people will be. Today, we speak as though there is nothing that the UPND Government has done when all of us are aware of what it has done. I challenge hon. Member on your left to go back to their constituencies to tell the constituents that you are taking CDF back to K1.6 million per constituency and see the reaction.

Madam Speaker, with regards to poverty reduction, economic transformation and job creation, the UPND Government has married that with the increment of the CDF. Why are we saying that? We want make sure that we create constituencies that do not only depend on white colour jobs. That is why we are taking them for skills development, so that even with CDF today, as Member of Parliament for Mwandi, when I am ordering desks, I am already creating jobs in Mwandi, thereby alleviating poverty.

Madam Speaker, let us talk about zero tolerance to hunger, which is SDG No. 2. How are we making sure that we are doing this? It is by crop diversification. When we went back to the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), it was a sad situation. I assure you that in Mwandi, Constituency, there is a ward where I only had two beneficiaries. When you are alleviating poverty, you make sure that the alleviation is done countrywide. That is why we are making sure that we are employing strategies to make sure that there is no one left behind regarding FISP. We are also looking at crop diversification. I have come to this House and I have said, I do not understand why we Zambians are failing to feed the world. I have given a challenge, and said even Mwandi alone can feed the whole Zambia just by making sure that we are giving sufficient inputs to the farmers without discrimination.

Madam Speaker, SDG No. 4 talks about quality education. You can see that under the UPND Government, toady, we have free education from Grade 1 to Grade 12. It does not end there. We have also introduced skills development. This access to quality education should just not end at national level. As hon. Members, we should be able to employ strategies to make sure that we are supporting the 8NDP. For example, in Mwandi, we have employed the CDF to make sure that there is a purchase of desks that goes to the improvement of quality education.

Madam, Speaker, another thing that I have noted with dismay in this report is the lack Comprehensive Sexuality Education (CSE). Just last week, I went for I meeting and I think we are sitting on a time bomb. I urge the Government to make sure that resources are also employed to such areas and make sure that as a country, we pay particular attention to issues of sexual reproductive health.

Why I am saying so? When I attended a meeting, I learnt, with dismay, that seven out of nine new infections are among young adults aged fifteen to thirty-five years old, which means that we are sitting on a ticking time bomb. So, there should be a strategy that should be employed to make sure that we give Comprehensive Sexuality Education, especially to children in the rural areas.

Madam Speaker, teenage pregnancies are still a challenge in this country. Let us make sure that we sensitise our children by ensuring that they have access to information. This should also include children who are differently abled, the blind and deaf. When you go to rural areas, it is sad to note that there is nothing meant for children who are blind. So, let us make sure that, as a Government, we employ resources in that area so that we can protect this generation and those that are coming in future.

Madam Speaker, let me also add that, as a Government, we should also employ strategies to make sure that teachers whom we have in these schools are also trained in ensuring that they can handle Comprehensive Sexuality Education. There is nothing that we are going to do or move, as a Government, if we do not take care of the young generation.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I support the report.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mulenga): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion at hand. First and foremost, I need to congratulate the hon. Minister for bringing the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) to Parliament so that it can be adopted. I further wish to appreciate the hon. Members of Parliament both on your left and right for seconding the adoption of the Motion at hand.

Madam Speaker, quickly, I need to address three facets that have been addressed in this House, most particularly by the hon. Members on your left side. I wish not to belabour more on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) functionality. The hon. Member cited that the CDF is not functional and that money is disbursed, but is not useable. It is not true. We are all hon. Members of Parliament coming from constituencies where the CDF is still being rolled out and supporting our people. Like the hon. Member from Mwandi cited earlier, at the moment, in my constituency, Chingola Constituency, over 300 youths, men and women have been sponsored through the CDF. This is something that never existed since the inception of the CDF plan in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the second phase will equip students or scholars, who have been sponsored by the CDF. This is something that not only the UPND hon. Members are implementing, but also something from which the same brothers and sisters on your left are benefitting.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: Madam, I see that it is prudent that they find a positive out of this. In an event that our brothers and sisters on your left are not doing anything with the CDF, this means, then, that they are sabotaging not only themselves, but also the people who voted for them to implement these projects.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, the CDF is available for them as much as it is available for the hon. Members on the right side of the House.

Madam, I need to quickly move on to the assertion that was brought forward by the hon. Member citing that the 8NDP is nothing but an edited version of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP).

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, on the contrary, the hon. Member must be aligned and understand that leadership is a continuous process.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, in an event that there are certain elements or clauses adopted from the 7NDP, they were not implemented. Therefore, the New Dawn Government wishes to implement them because they are good policies. Why should we throw them away when they are good policies? As a Government that is prudent in resource management, we want to implement those policies and progress. Therefore, I implore the hon. Members on your left to take this as a positive rather than ridicule the implementation of good policies that even themselves brought on board, but failed to implement.

Madam Speaker, I need to make it very clear in the House that the New Dawn Government is very committed to ensuring that the 8NDP does not become a rhetoric document, like it was cited earlier, but a document that will see improvement in the living standards of people across all sections of society.

Madam Speaker, the third facet that I wish to quickly address is a point that was brought out by an hon. Member, who was cited in a point of order raised by the hon. Minister of Agriculture. The Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development has not been left out in the 8NDP. Agro-processing is not a Small and Medium Enterprise (SME). It sits under the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. Agro-processing is a major industry, which the New Dawn Government is implementing, as was explained by the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, the 8NDP is key to a new path of development for this country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to be able to make some comments regarding the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). In the first instance, I want to thank your Select Committee that went through the document and came up with the comments and recommendations. This is as it is expected and we thank your Committee for that.

Madam Speaker, I also believe that this is the first time, I could be wrong, but I believe that this is the first time, that a development plan is being brought to Parliament for the input of hon. Members of Parliament. Once again, I think, this is the correct thing to do. In that regard, I want to thank all the hon. Members who have debated both on your left and on your right.

Madam Speaker, from some of the comments, of course, you can tell, that, probably, people did not have a chance to really read through the document because some of the things that have been said not to be contained therein, are actually there and this discovery can be made when you examine the document very carefully. This is a living document that we are going to implement together. So, I urge hon. Members that it becomes important that we all read through the document very carefully so that it is at our finger tips. We should know exactly the direction that the country is taking because how do you implement something that you do not understand? It is like building a house that you have not designed. The end result will be chaos. So, let us read through the document and familiarise ourselves with what it says.

Madam Speaker, if I was to give a very brief summary about this document, I would say, first of all, it recognises the fact that we are in a strange situation today because of the excessive debt that we are carrying on our shoulders. In a sense, you can see that the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) had difficulties in implementation because on one hand, the plan stipulated a number of things that needed to be done, yet on the other hand, the financing went to fund what was outside the plan. A plan, of course, goes hand-in-hand with the financing plan. If you are going to do a, b, c and d, where is the financing package for that? The problem that arose the last time was that whereas the plan said one thing, the financing went wayward because of borrowing not to fund what was in the plan, but to fund things that were totally outside the plan.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: This is something that we have to deal with. Coming back to the summary, first of all, we have to recognise that we have this financing problem because of the debt which we must deal with, and we are dealing with. With that, it means that the resources now must be applied with dedication to the priorities that are contained in the document. Let us not go through the same mistake of stating what we are planning to do, but taking money somewhere else. That will not help us. So, that is why it is important to make sure that the debt situation is resolved.

Madam Speaker, the next issue is how do we create wealth, which of course, is associated with creating jobs. This is where now the section of the plan talks about what we are going to do in mining, manufacturing, tourism, agriculture and other supporting sectors like energy and infrastructure because this is where jobs come from. All those are laid out very clearly in the plan, which will answer the question, what do we do to create jobs?

Madam Speaker, one but last, the plan talks about what is it that we are going to do to build human capital. We can create investment and jobs, but if our people have not had education or they have not been trained in skills and they are not healthy because they are always sick, it means these jobs that will be created will not benefit the local people. So, we have this whole section talking about how human capital is going to be built and preserved.

Madam Speaker, lastly, there is the issue of the implementation mechanisms. I must say here that there will be another document that will be developed, which refers to the issue of the implementation plan because this was more less about the content, but there will also be an implementation plan. It is that implementation plan that will be assisting us. In education, mining, and agriculture we are suppose to do this, and that will now be tallies together with the Budget. This will enable the Budget and the plan to sing from the same book. So, that is the plan that is there.

Madam Speaker, let me now answer a few questions or respond to issues that were raised, one of which was that this 8NDP is for the rich people and does not address the plight of the poor people. I think the example that was given was that of agriculture, but once again, if you read through the chapter of agriculture, you will see that it talks very clearly about the support that will be given to agriculture, the small scale farmers. The marketing that was being talked about it is all there.

Madam Speaker, I also want to add one thing. This thinking that because you are doing infrastructure, towers and so forth, and of course, they are very nice and useful things, but to believe that because you have constructed towers, as much as we want them, therefore, you are the one who has addressed the plight of the poor people is a wrong notion.

Madam Speaker, it is a wrong notion because I think I have heard hon. Colleagues debate in this House that the most important equaliser in terms of the future of people is education. We all agree that the most important equaliser is education.

Madam Speaker, now, already, we have seen how we have started as the New Dawn Administration. In one go, we have hired or we are hiring 30,000 teachers. This is because there were no teachers. In many schools, you will find that there are only two teachers for the Grade 1 to Grade 7 and even Grade 1 to Grade 9. How do those pupils learn in those schools? How can they be assisted to be equalised in society? It is impossible.

Madam Speaker, my young sister Hon. Sefulo talked about the fact that now education Grade 1 to Grade 12 is free. Just yesterday, I was in Kalabo attending to something, talking to the teachers and the children and they said I could not believe what was happening. The schools and boarding dormitories which used to be empty, are now full and back to life. The children are being given the opportunity to learn. This is how you address the issue of poverty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in the next ten, fifteen, twenty years, children who are coming out of those schools will be like my brother Hon. Mundubile, good lawyers. However, when you put up infrastructure, and I must admit, I have said it before, it is good, but you leave the children behind, then of course, you are creating poverty endlessly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for once again giving me an opportunity to wind up debate. I just want to thank everyone who has debated and also for the support from the other hon. Members. Let me also place on record that I am grateful to your Committee for the support it rendered during the period of looking at this document.

Madam Speaker, I think the engagement with the stakeholders is the starting point for refining this document and I want to believe that the hon. Minister will do justice to that.

Madam Speaker, lastly, we look forward to seeing the implementation plan as provided for in the Planning and Budgeting Act that the implementation plan will be out two months after the approval. I thank the hon. Members for their support.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

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BILLS

SECOND READING

THE BANK OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. The introduction of the Bank of Zambia Bill No. 5 of 2022, is intended to align the Bank of Zambia Act with the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016. It is also intended to align the Bank of Act with the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Central Bank model law with the view of enhancing operational independence of the Central Bank and be in conformity with the current international standards and best financial practices.

Madam Speaker, the objectives of the Bill are to achieve the following:

       (a)  to provide for the additional functions, operations and management of the Bank of Zambia;

Madam Speaker: Order!

I think we have moved too fast. You are only supposed to move the Motion first.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the objectives of the Bank of Zambia Bill are as follows:

       (a)    provide for additional functions, operations and management of the Bank of Zambia;

       (b)   provide for the composition of the Board of Directors of the Bank of Zambia and the performance of the functions of the

             Board of Directors;

       (c)  provide for the establishment and functions of the Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) and the Financial Stability Committee  

              (FSC);

       (d)   repeal and replace the Bank of Zambia Act, 1996; and

       (e)  provide for matters connected with, or incidental to the foregoing.

Major Policy Changes or Inclusions in the Bill

Madam Speaker, the proposed amendments to the Bank of Zambia Act were subjected to a wide stakeholder consultation in order to meet the aspirations and the ever-changing financial system both at domestic and international levels. Therefore, some of the key new areas being proposed for inclusion in the Bank of Zambia Bill are as follows:

       (a)   Operational Autonomy of the Bank of Zambia (BOZ);

Madam Speaker, Article 213(5) of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, 2016, guarantees the autonomy of the BoZ and imposes sanctions on any person who seeks to interfere or influence the Central Bank in the discharge of its functions. This is in recognition of the fact that the Central Bank and accountability are key in facilitating price and financial stability conducive for sustainable economic growth and development. In this regard, a number of provisions which were subject to the Minister's approval in the current Act have been removed as part of guaranteeing the operational independence of the bank.

      (b) Additional Functions;

Madam speaker, the Bill now explicitly provides for key additional functions for the bank such as the formulation and implementation of macro-prudential policies, promoting the continuous development of the domestic financial markets as well as regulating the rate of interest and other charges that a financial service provider or a payment service provider may impose on a financial transaction. The functions have been stated to provide clarity to the primary objective of formulating and implementing monetary and supervisory policies aimed at achieving and maintaining price stability and financial systems stability.

     (c)  Governance Issues of the Central Bank;

Madam Speaker, the Bank of Zambia Bill proposes new provisions to enhance governance, independence and accountability as follows:

       (i)   clearly outlines the procedures for the removal of the Governor and the Deputy Governors where the grounds for such removal

              most be proved before a tribunal constituted by the President:

       (ii)   clearly designates a Deputy Governor to act as Governor when the Office of Governor is vacant or when the Governor is

               unable to perform the functions of the Office of the Governor;

      (iii)   proposes that the tenure of the BoZ Governor be increased from five years to six years in order to delink the tenure of the

              Governor from the political or electoral cycle with a primary aim of assuring security of tenure for decision-makers thereby

              promoting stability in the financial system;

    (iv)    proposes the continuation of the Central Bank Governor as Chair of the BoZ Board. This is premised on the sensitivity of the

             decisions made by the Central Bank, which have short and long-term implications of the macroeconomic stability of the    

             country;

             and

     (v)   the requirement for the Governor and Deputy Governors to submit a declaration of assets, liabilities, business and financial

            interests within a specified period of the appointment or enactment of the new Act;

(d)      Operational and Institutional Matters;

Madam Speaker, the Bill also provides for the introduction of new provisions on the following matters:

       (i)    establishment of the Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) and the Financial and Stability Committee (FSC) which strengthens

              operational independence of the bank with regards to the formulation and implementation of monetary and supervisory

              policies; and

    (ii)    inclusion of the supervisory role over payment systems and the mandate of the BoZ to operate accounts for payment service

            providers.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, we are confident that the enactment of this Bill will align the BoZ to the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016. Further, the enactment of this Bill will domesticate the principles of the SADC Central Bank Model Law to promote integration for a harmonised monetary policy.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, in accordance with Standing Orders 197(j) and 198 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021, your Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Bank of Zambia Bill, No. 5 of 2022.

Madam Speaker, let me state from the onset that the Bank of Zambia Bill, No. 5 of 2022 seeks to align the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) to the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 and reinforce Central Bank independence. The Bill intends to also align the legislation governing the BoZ with the Central Bank Model Law adopted by the Southern African Development Community (SADC) to which Zambia is a member State.

Madam Speaker, let me also state that your Committee is in support of the Bill. In supporting the Bill, your Committee makes the following observations and recommendations:

Your Committee observes that Clause 5(3) (a) provides for the bank to assist the Government in the management and administration of domestic and external debt. As this honourable House may be aware, this function already sits with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, which has a specific department dedicated to the handling of the said matters. Therefore, the provision of the Clause, if adopted, will be tantamount to usurping the functions of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning as they relate to the management and administration of domestic and external debt for and on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia.

Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Bill should provide that the BoZ plays an advisory role in this area.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that Clause (10) (3) provides that the Governor shall hold office for a term of six years and may be re-appointed for a further term of six years. Your Committee is of the view that since the Governor is an appointee of the Republican President, whose term of office, as per the Republican Constitution, is five years, the tenure of the office of the Bank Governor should be aligned to that of the President.

This will allow an incoming President, should there be a change of Government, a free hand to appoint a governor of his/her choice or to renew the contract for the incumbent, if they so wish. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the tenure of office for the governor be revised from the proposed six years to five years with eligibility for reappointment for a further term of five years as is provided in the current Bank of Zambia Act.

Madam Speaker, as I wind up my debate, I want to bring to your attention Clause 13 (2)(c), which gives incompetence as one of the grounds for removal from office of the governor or deputy governor. Your Committee notes that there is no definition of the word “incompetence” in the Bill. This, therefore, makes the ground very subjective and prone to abuse, notwithstanding that a tribunal might subsequently be appointed to inquire into the allegations giving rise to the need to remove the governor or deputy governor from office.In this vein, your Committee recommends that the definition of incompetence be provided in the Bill in order to avoid arbitrariness.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to place on record my sincere thanks to all stakeholders who appeared before your Committee and made submissions on the Bill. I also wish to thank you and the Office of the Clerk for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee during the consideration of the Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to pay gratitude to your Committee, the Chairman and his group, for the work that they did to study the Bill thoroughly.

Madam, I take note of the recommendations that they have made, except that with the first one, it is really an issue of semantics. The Bill says the bank will merely assist – merely is my word of emphasis – the Government in the management of both domestic and external debt. The Chairman of the Committee says it should read “advising”. We will look at it and see whether there is a substantive change that is being underlined there. Otherwise, we take note of the other two recommendations for which we will make consultations and see what we will do.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 6^th July, 2022.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Judges (Conditions of Service) (Amendment) Bill, 2022.

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1826 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 29^th June, 2022.

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