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Wednesday, 15thJune, 2022
Wednesday, 15thJune, 2022
The House met at 1430 hours
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_______
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER
DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of Members of the Parliamentary Legal Committee and staff from the Parliament of Zimbabwe:
Hon.MisheckDudzaiMataranyika, MP, Acting Chairperson
Hon. Cuthbert Mpame, MP
Hon. Anele Ndebele, MP
Hon. MazwellMavhunga, MP
Mrs Elizabeth Hove, Assistant Counsel to Parliament, and
Ms EsrinaMupfudze, Principal Law Officer.
I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests, and warmly welcome them in our midst.
I thank you.
ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government business, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Ambrose Lufuma, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, from today, Wednesday, 15th June to Thursday, 16th June, 2022.
I thank you.
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT ON CDF GUIDELINES
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the last announcement is to the effect that the House will recall that on Thursday, 9th June, 2022, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker directed the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to issue a ministerial statement on the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) guidelines.
This followed a matter of urgent public importance raised by Mr Emmanuel J. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Parliamentary Constituency. The ministerial statement was to be issued today, Wednesday, 15th June, 2022. However, since a Private Member’s Motion on the same subject is appearing on the Order Paper for today, the ministerial statement will not be rendered.
I thank you.
______
MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
MR A. C. MUMBA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANTANSHI, ON CRIMINALS ATTACKING MOBILE MONEYDEALERS
Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, I rise on Standing Order No. 134, which is a matter of urgent public importance.
Madam Speaker, of late, we have noticed that the mobile services subsector has been attacked quite aggressively in the last few months, to an extent that criminals have now even started killing some of our youths running mobile money centres. Indeed, these criminals are stealing the hard-earned monies which people have invested in their businesses.
Madam Speaker, you appreciate that money mobile service providers have worked quite aggressively in responding to real time money transactions, especially for those who lack banking services. However, these criminals are threatening this private sector investment, which is contributing aggressively to our economy.
I would like to find out, Madam Speaker, whether the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security is in order to remain quiet on this very delicate matter, which borders on the lives and the well-being of the people who own these businesses, especially the young people. As you heard last week, one youth was abducted and a week later was declared dead, and there are many other cases which might not even be captured by the media.
Now, I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is in order to remain quiet without outlining any measures whatsoever to protect these lives and businesses in our country. I seek some guidance from you because this matter has kept many mobile money traders and dealers in many awkward positions and they fear for their lives, because they always handle a lot of cash in a day.
Madam Speaker: Thank you for that matter, hon. Member for Kantanshi. We have seen in the press several reports of mobile money dealers either being abducted or threatened with death and I believe there has been no statement that has come forth to explain what is happening. I remember the matter was being investigated, but I do not know what the outcome is.
The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is not here, but, maybe, he would have loved to shed some light. Since he is not here, we will give him some time. He can come back to the House next week on Thursday to render a ministerial statement on this matter so that the nation can be informed the measures being taken to protect mobile money traders in order to preserve life and property.
Hon. Members, as we raise these matters of urgent public importance, let us bear in mind that we have a lot of work to do today. I believe all hon. Members would like to participate by debating, and I would want to have as many hon. Members of Parliament debate on the subjects that are before the House today. So, as we raise these matters, can we restrict to matters that are of urgent public importance, which have a bearing on a matter of life or death and are also in accordance with the criteria outlined by our own Standing Orders. With that caution and direction, the hon. Member for Mpika Central wants to raise a matter of urgent public importance.
MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MPIKA CENTRAL, ON MR KABUSWE, HON. MINISTER OF MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT, ON DEATHS AT THE BLACK MOUNTAIN
Mr Kapyanga(Mpika Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I rise on a matter of urgent public importance, pursuant to Standing Order No. 134, directed at the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.
Madam Speaker, in the past two weeks, we have seen a number of videos of dead people purportedly from the Black Mountain. Even yesterday, there was a video circulating; actually, it is still circulating on social media, and it is of a man who died at the Black Mountain.
Madam Speaker, I would like to find out the kind of safety measures that have been put in place by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development as our people operate at the Black Mountain, because the death toll from the Black Mountain activities keeps rising on a daily basis.
With that said, Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.
Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for that matter that you have raised. Indeed, there has been some concern on the happenings at the Black Mountain. I am aware that that matter has been dealt with before this honourable House.
It has been debated, but in view of the rising number of deaths that have occurred, I think it is important for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to come to this House and inform the House, and through this House, the members of the public, on the measures being taken to ensure that life is preserved at the Black Mountain as it continues to operate, and the measures being put in place to ensure that there is a balance between the economic activities and the life, which is so precious. So, on Friday next week, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is directed to issue a ministerial statement on that matter.
Let us now make progress. We have a lot of work, as I have already indicated. So, we move to the next item on the agenda.
_______
MOTION
AMENDMENT OF 2022 CDF GUIDELINES
Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for according me this opportunity to move a Private Member’s Motion that seeks to urge the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines to among others, expand the utilisation of funds to tertiary education.
Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?
Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, let me begin by applauding the Government for increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) from K1.6 million to K25.7 million. The increase in the funds will scale up development in constituencies across the country, especially rural constituencies, which have received lopsided development since Independence.
Madam Speaker, from the outset, allow me to highlight the objective of this Motion. The aim of this Motion is to request the Government to consider amending the CDF Guidelines on the utilisation of secondary schools, boarding schools and skills development bursaries, which amount to 20 per cent of the total CDF allocation.
Madam Speaker, I am proposing that the amendment allows the CDF to consider awarding bursaries to vulnerable children in constituencies, who intend to undertake professional courses, which are demand-driven in our constituencies, such as teaching and nursing, among others, offered bythe Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority(TEVETA) accredited institutions. For example, at the Evelyn Hone Collegeof Applied Arts and Commerce here in Lusaka, which is a TEVETA-accredited institution, courses such as teaching are offered, but teaching is not among the recommended courses considered for bursaries under these guidelines.
Madam Speaker, allow me to emphasise here that my proposed amendment is not meant to take away the intention of the Executive of empowering local people in our constituencies with skills development. My proposal is meant to help students seeking to pursue professional courses to be considered under these guidelines, only if there are excess funds after offering bursaries to secondary schools, boarding schools and skills development institutions.
Madam Speaker, as I move this Motion, I take into account the fact that the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board, which was established by the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Act No. 31 of 2016, took over the administration of student loans and scholarships. I am aware that the board currently awards student loans –
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, with your indulgence and permission, and taking into account that you should take judicial notice that a Motion that is presented on the Floor of the House must be clear and succinct – If you want to make an amendment to the Motion, you must circulate an amendment. The mover of the Motion is now amending the Motion on the Floor of this House. So, there is no Motion, actually, because he has not circulated it.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Thank you. Hon. Member for Chama North, please, stick to the Motion that you have presented, which is contained on the Order Paper. Do not add anything to the Motion.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: According to the records that I have, there is a Motion, a Private Member’s Motion.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Let us allow him to debate. However, please, stick to the Motion that you have presented on the Floor, which was duly approved by the Office of the Clerk.
Hon. Member for Chama North, you may proceed.
Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, my argument here is directing –
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama North, I do not know whether Chama South and Chama North –
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Is there some opposition of some sort? The hon. Member who has the Floor is the hon. Member from Chama North. Please, hon. Member for Chama South, do not interfere with the north.
Laughter
Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, it is a point of procedure. It is very, very important for –
Madam Speaker: On the same matter?
Mr Mung’andu: No. If you check, Madam Speaker –
Madam Speaker: Proceed, hon. Member for Chama South.
Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, the practice in this House is that before people can indicate to debate, we wait for the mover of the Motion to finish debating.
Interruptions
Mr Mung’andu: Listen, let me finish. This is the procedure. The hon. Minister issues his ministerial statement, then, Madam Speaker, you ask whether there are people who want to debate and then we indicate. However, what we have seen here is that many hon. Members are complaining because before the mover of the Motion has finished moving the Motion and the seconder seconds, people have already indicated on the gadget. What is it that they will be debating?
My submission, Madam Speaker, is that we wait until the seconder finishes and that is when staff from the Information Communications Technology (ICT) Department should allow people to compete to indicate to debate. I submit, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you may recall that when we started, I indicated that let us not waste time because there is an interesting Motion on the Floor. So, the hon. Members are interested in indicating that they want to debate. So, let us not waste time. However, I will use my discretion. The fact that an hon. Member has indicated first might not necessarily mean that he/she will speak first, because we want to listen to other voices. So, you need not to be worried.
The hon. Member for Chama North may proceed.
Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, however, it is a known fact that a number of students who were awarded these scholarships is so minimal compared to the total number of students seeking for sponsorship, thus, they need to look for other avenues such as utilising the CDF.
Madam Speaker, the number of pupils completing Grade 12 continues to increase year in and year out. For example, 81,838 candidates obtained Grade 12 school certificates in 2021. However, the number of students who were given student loans to pursue tertiary education is a drop in the ocean. The University of Zambia (UNZA), for example, had 2,481 out of 10,682 first year applicants awarded student loans for the 2021/2022 Academic Year. The situation is the same in other higher institutions.
Madam Speaker, it is our responsibility, as law makers, to ensure that those who qualified, especially the vulnerable students, are given educational loans and sponsorship to attain tertiary education. Attaining any higher education at universities and colleges should not be a preserve of the children from the rich families.
Madam Speaker, many school leavers in our constituencies continue to be left out and many of them roam the streets. It is from this background that in order for us to help the Executive increase the number of vulnerable children accessing tertiary education in constituencies, I bring this Motion to the House to strongly urge the Government to consider amending the CDF Guidelines, so that secondary and boarding schools, and skills development bursaries cater for tertiary education as well.
Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that, currently, the CDF Guidelines provide for only applicants in possession of admission or acceptance letters from public or private TEVETA accredited institutions or the Zambia National Services (ZNS) being eligible for skills training bursaries. There is, therefore, a need to expand the guidelines to include vulnerable young children in our constituencies who want to pursue tertiary education outside TEVETA accredited institutions.
Madam Speaker, allow me once more to emphasise that this Motion is not intended to take away the legal mandate of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board, which by law is mandated to provide education loans to students in tertiary institutions. However, the aim of this non-controversial Motion, to this august House, is to help compliment the work of the board by utilising the CDF using an already existing guideline, which just needs to be expanded to include the provision of tertiary education through bursaries.
Madam Speaker, if you remember very well, the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board, awarded loans to only students who had gotten six points so that disadvantaged children in rural communities, who cannot compete with those in urban areas because of certain facilities which are not present in rural areas. So, this facility will help the vulnerable children.
Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to state that there is bureaucracy in accessing the CDF. I am aware that a number of constituencies have failed to utilise funds despite the pressing challenges that our people in constituencies are facing. I am alive to the fact that controls are necessary for the prudent utilisation of funds. However, controls should not impede or hinder the successful implementation of the CDF.
Madam Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is waiting to address some of these bottlenecks around this issue. However, I want to use this platform to urge the ministry to expeditiously deal with the problem of bureaucracy because there is too much bureaucracy in accessing the CDF. Even with community projects, after the local authority and the CDF Committee do their work, the papers are sent to the local Government. The papers may not take long in the Minister’s office, but technocrats take two to three months just to approve them. After that, they go back to the constituency. However, the same documentations go to the Attorney-General and the Treasuryfor clearance, although they have delegated that responsibility to the Director of Finance at provincial level, which again takes too long.
Madam Speaker, allow me to end my debate by appealing to hon. Members to support this non- controversial Motion, which will greatly help many school leavers in our constituencies who are so eager to go to colleges and universities, but have no financial capacity to do so.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Mr Munir Zulu: Later, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Order! We are losing time. Any further debate. The hon. Member for Pambashe.
Mr Chitotela: I thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Pambashe an opportunity to add their voice to the non-controversial Motion raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North.
Madam Speaker, where I come from we say,bamukolwengabafula, ubushikutabuchabwangu meaning so many hands destroy soup.
Madam Speaker, the intention of the New Dawn Administration, under His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema –
Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member! He has put it on.
A point of order is raised.
Mr Mutelo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on a procedural matter.
Madam Speaker, from the time that I came to this Parliament to date, I have never seen the House proceed to debate a Motion that has not been seconded.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
We are losing a lot of time. Hon. Member for Mitete, let me just give guidance.
Mr Mutelo: So, I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: The Motion, hon. Members, was seconded. If you were following the proceedings, I did ask the seconder whether he wanted to debate now or later, and he opted to debate later, for whatever reason, which I am not aware of. However, there is an option for the seconder to debate now or later. So, he has chosen that option.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: The debate will proceed. The hon. Member for Pambashe was on the Floor. Maybe, just as a request. Please, let us not repeat points that have already been debated on. If we can spare some time for other hon. Members, so that as many hon. Members as possible can debate, that will be appreciated.
The hon. Member for Pambashe may proceed.
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I was saying that so many fingers destroy soup. The intention of His Excellency the President, when he came to address the nation was very clear, on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). On the education subsector, he said that they are now taking power to the people and that the approval of bursaries will be done at the household level.
Therefore, Madam Speaker, segregating and leaving out those who want to do other courses other that the programmes registered under Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA), is negative discrimination that is doing a lot of harm to many children who are desirous to advance their education profile.
Mr Jamba: Mask up.
Mr Chitotela: Those who want me to mask up, I am double vaccinated and I have a health complication, and I am not causing any danger.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members, the rules as they stand right now are that we all mask up. I would also love to remove my mask but I cannot because the rules require us not to do so. So, until those rules are changed, we will continue masking up.
Proceed, hon. Member.
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, yesterday, I raised a very important point bearing in mind that I have been in the Executive before. I know that the New Dawn Government’s concentration is on the CDF, and there is so much interest from various ministries. At the end of the day, if we do not streamline this programme under one hon. Minister, it is bound to fail because everybody would want to get associated with the CDF. Therefore, yesterday, I raised a very important issue. The very hard-working hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development used to stand here the time I used to sit there.
Madam Speaker, we are in the sixth month of the year. In the next two months, His Excellency the President, will come here to address the nation. In the next three months, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come here to address the nation and give us the new budget circle. We have a circular that says money must be kept in an account and a financial manager must be appointed. I have been wondering at what point they will appoint a financial manager to manage this fund, and to start giving out the loans to the deserving youths and women, when we have literally remained with two to three months to begin another budget circle.
The cause,Madam Speaker, is embedded in the so many interests by various ministries. I am speaking from experience. I was in the ministry responsible for infrastructure and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government had an agenda for infrastructure and it raised many interests. The hon. Minister requires the support of the Executive for him to successfully execute the programme. He also requires the support of the President and fellow Cabinet Ministers because most of them would want to see him fail. They think if he succeeds, it will be Mr Gary Nkombo who will make a name, when at the end of the day, many Zambians will benefit from the UPND Government.
Madam Speaker, I hope His Excellency the President and those in the administration are listening. They should streamline the guidelines, so that we know who is responsible for a certain function. Right now, it is just something else. If you read the guidelines, money has been disbursed. There is a desire for the ministries to have things done, but, at the end of the day, it is a circus and we will not go anywhere. At the end of the day, the Zambians who we desire to serve will not be served because of so much interest.
Madam Speaker, therefore, I emphasise that this matter cuts across all the constituencies. The people of Pambashe are experiencing pain due to the non-disbursement of the first allocation of the CDF. The second quarter is about to end but we have not even spent a single ngwee on the first disbursement. When are they going to disburse the second or third instalments? There is so much bureaucracy and interest in this book. When you read it, you will find that so many ministries are interested in the implementation and ministering of the CDF. How? Is it the only Government fund that the New Dawn Administration is running with? The answer is no. Why can the Executive not agree that once this programme becomes a success, all of us will celebrate. It will be good for the UPND Administration but there must be one individual who must be accountable for the failure or success of the CDF. However, as things stand today, whom are we going to blame? It may be under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development but the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts is looking at that fund to make sure that the youths benefit. Wherever the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development goes, he talks about the CDF. The hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services also talks about the CDF. So, you begin thinking if all the Government systems have trickled down to only the CDF, and as a result, there is confusion.
Madam Speaker, I also want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister that the transfer of the principal officers midyear, is also a cause for the delayment in the implementation of the CDF. When you move all the principal officers in the councils, cities and across the country, when are they going to sit down and begin implementing the programmes? After the ministry holds seminars for the officers at Chalimbana and it teaches them how to work, after two days in office, an officer is transferred to Shangombo, and the one in Shangombo is transferred to Mbala, and five months later, he is moved. When are they going to work? So, there must be consistency in the implementation of Government programmes. We need to streamline the guidelines so that there are no tedious reputations and there can be one person responsible for the fund, who will be held accountable for its failure or success.
With those few words, Madam Speaker, I support the mover of the Motion and urge the Administration not to politic over this matter because in the next two months, His Excellency the President will come here to address the nation. In the next three months, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come here to present another budget. What are they going to talk about with these eminent failures in the implementation of the CDF?
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity.
Madam Speaker, I support this Motion. Firstly, I want to tackle the challenges we are having in accessing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).
Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President of this country, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, with his Cabinet came up with a very good idea to give us enough money, about K14.7 million for projects, or should I say 60 per cent for projects and 40 per cent for other things. However, what has happened today is that we are not moving as a country. We were given very good guidelines by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, meaning that the entire Cabinet or the Executive of this country agreed to the said guidelines.
Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that among us here, maybe, one or two have disbursed money to secondary schools. Even in the first and second quarters, it was a disaster or should I say there is a derailment at the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, and I understand there are just humans as well.
Madam Speaker, there are 156 constituencies in this country and we are piling everything to do with secondary school bursaries for vulnerable people in rural constituencies. Ward Development Committees (WDCs) choose vulnerable people at the local level, then, this information goes to the constituency. From the constituency, it goes to the national level, where they take about three months to approve the names and they send them back to the constituency. This process takes time. Further, we have to send the same names to the local government officer at the provincial level.
Madam Speaker, this money is not for individuals, but for the country. If we love our country, let us support the idea of the CDF. If we really respect low income families, let us see to it that we support this money. If somebody can rise up today and argue over development with the CDF, I do not know how I or even the country would describe that person.
Madam Speaker, I appeal to the Government to see to it that it minimises the bottlenecks in the disbursement of this money. What is happening today is a disaster to all of us. It is also a disaster to the UPND, as the party in the Government.
Madam Speaker, we are in the sixth month of the year and you may wish to note that the money for projects has not been released. No one here has even started digging a single toilet. No one here has even started building anything and this is not good for us all, regardless of which political party one comes from whether PF or UPND. Unless, there are selected constituencies where things are moving, constituencies like mine are sometimes forgotten in the planning of this nation. Maybe, mine has not been touched, but as far as I know, no single constituency has gotten any approval. Unless there are selected constituencies, those that are loved or respected, but if it is a normal process, no constituency has gotten any approval of any project.
Madam Speaker, we gave people hope, and they came to ask for loans and others asked for grants. The area I come from, and in Nyimba in particular, there is an agriculture setup or let me just say that in the entire Eastern Province, there are no industries. The only industry we will havewill be established in the farms. People are asking for maizeand soya beansshellers, but to date, money has not been approved. How do you think they are going to pay back the loans which theygot since business in the agricultural sector is seasonal? We are not moving as a country. What is happening and what is there for the people at the local level?
Madam Speaker, –
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing order No. 65 (b), on content of speech, which states that:
“(1) A member who is debating shall –
(b) ensure that the information he or she provides tothe House is factual and verifiable.”
Madam Speaker, the one raising this point of order happens to be the privileged one who currently approves all Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects, and I mean all of them. The hon. Member who is debating knows for a fact that, and I mean for a fact, his constituency projects are approved by me. Is he, therefore, in order to mislead this House by saying that not a single project has been approved considering that I am the one who approves projects?
I seek a serious ruling on this matter, Madam.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we debate, let us be factual. I know it is a process and there are so many issues, but if projects have been approved, let us not state otherwise. Let me also advise hon. Members on my right not to debate through points of order because that could have come in as a response.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, rest assured, the hon. Minister is here and he is listening. So, please, let us be factual and relevant. You may proceed.
Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I feel for the hon. Minister Local Government and Rural Development –
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Nyimba, proceed with the debate.
Laughter
Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, my plea is that we see to it that we start moving. Luckily, K1.6 million was allocated to Nyimba and all projects were approved. However, nothing has been approved for the first quarter. We need to move as country. What will happen because people are counting days and they are looking at what is happening in this country? I am not blaming anyone, but let us find a solution on how this country is going to move forward. Last year, we failed to find a solution and this simply tellsus that we are not able to manage the needs of this country. We now have an opportunity to change the narrative of the failure to develop rural constituencies and to start developing everywhere at an equal rate.
Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that some of us want to use this money to build clinics in areas where we grew up. Some of us want to use this money to build schools in some areas because when I was in Grade 1, I would walk 10 km to school.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam, my appeal to this Government is that it quickens the process of accessing the CDF so that we can start moving. With regards to the bottlenecks, there is no guideline we can fail to correct as Parliament.
Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that circulars which are coming from the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) are just too much. In the last six months, we have had about six circulars or memos directed at council secretaries on how to use the CDF andmy appeal is that we start moving. I am appealing to members of the Executive to sit down and hear us. 80 per cent or 90 per cent of hon. Members from the current Executive have constituencies. It is sad that even members of the Executive are failing to work in their constituencies, yet they know where the problem is. Do we need Jesus Christ to come and pray for us to start changing these laws?
Madam Speaker, I rest my case and I thank you.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to add a voice to the debate on this Motion.
Madam Speaker, the Motion says that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education.
Madam Speaker, in fact, here at Parliament, we deal with Bills and laws. Guidelines which some people are trying to bring here are so minute to be discussed by this Parliament. There is nothing wrong with the CDF Guidelines because we sat as hon. Members of Parliament and looked at them and we were satisfied that they were okay. The only thing which we did not –
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, –
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, resume your seat.
Hon. Members, this is a very emotive issue and I know that all of you are interested in debating it. So, let us give each hon. Member chance to debate and if you have anything to say in opposition or you want to counter the points that have been put forward by one hon. Member, you can indicate that you want to speak. However, this idea of arguing, shouting and disturbing the flow of the debate will not be entertained. So, I would like hon. Members to follow the debate, including the hon. Member for Kawambwa.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, you may proceed.
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, the CDF caters for skills. If you have seen in our country, skills have dwindled. During the time of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), we had trade schools which were offering skills training programmes. In Zambia today, we do not have skills for making silos. The money which has come in can cater for skills and can be used to develop the skills. Let me just explain one thing. Maybe, people do not understand that a person who is trained at the university and obtains a Bachelors Degree is someone who designs. That is not an art. So, you want to be training more people from the university who just design and cannot make a shirt? For you to have that suit which you are putting on, you need an artisan to sew your shirt and put buttons. That is what we are looking for when we talk about this CDF.
So, you want to bring the already crowded –
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member! Debate through the Chair.
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance. People want to add those going to universities to the already crowded CDF.There is a board which looks into the loans for students who need sponsorship. If the mover of the Motion had said we urge the Government to increase the money for bursaries or loans at the board, then, we would have supported himbecause we shall know that there is a lot of money in the community for our children to go to the university. We are making feeder roads and schools using this CDF and now you want to add university scholarships. Then, you do not know what you are doing.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Jamba: Madam, theGovernment has committed to looking into loans and to put more money there.
Hon. UPND Member: Hammer, hammer!
Mr Jamba: Why can you not urge the Government to put aside money for bursaries and loans instead of saying that children access this CDF? Then, we do not know what we are doing.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, as it is now, in my constituency, all the projects for the whole year were already approved and we have started executing them. The people who are saying they are not doing anything are doing so deliberately to make it seem like there is failure. To tell you the truth, the money which we have is enough for skills development and whatever we are doing but not enough for students going to universities. Therefore, the Motion which has been brought is actually a Brought in Dead (BID)because it is misleading and giving a wrong impression by people speaking English here which is not even substantiated.
Hon. UPND Member: Hammer, hammer!
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, maybe, let me put it this way; for you to sponsor a student at the University of Zambia(UNZA) for one full year, you need about K30,000. So, if you want students in our communities to be sponsored through the CDF, how many are you going to sponsor?Please, before you start bringing such Motions, do your calculations and think first before you start doing these things.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Jamba: So, how many people are you going to sponsor?You will see that you will only sponsor one person and the CDF is going to be overburdened. Therefore, speaking as a Back-Bencher, I suggest that we bring a Motion to ask that we increase the budgetary allocation for the education sector to give money to students going to the university, and not such Motions of getting money from the CDF. So, the CDF is enough for what we are doing. We want to increase skills at the local level because at that level, you want welders, plumbers, people who make desks, people who will make shirts and mechanics who are going to repair your tyres. What type of thinking is that where you want to bring people from universities to be fixing your shirts?
Madam Speaker, I cannot continue debating a BID Motion which people with degrees are supporting; something which is dead.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Let us control our emotions as we debate.
Hon. Members, just to give guidance, as we debate, let us stick to the Motion. The Motion is on the extension of the CDF to tertiary education and not any other matter relating to the building of schools, roads and other things. It is just for the extension, among others,for tertiary education.
The hon. Member for Lumezi, the seconder, is now ready to speak.
Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you KindMadam Speaker, for permitting the good people of Lumezi an opportunity to support this non-controversial Motion. Permit me to thank the Member for Chama North, Hon. Mtayachalo, for bringing such a progressive and non-controversial Motion that can only be shot down by hypocrites.
Hon. UPND Members: Question!
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am a message bearer of the good people of Lumezi that Lumezi is one of the regions that was marginalised in the past.
Hon. UPND Members: By whom?
Mr Sing’ombe: The PF.
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members! Let us allow the seconder to debate.
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, it is on record, not once or twice, – the language in this House has been that some regions were marginalised and Lumezi is one of those regions, I must submit.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munir Zulu: It is quite sad that we are here complaining that there are bottlenecks to access the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We are here where there are no technocrats.We are here as law makers trying to provide a solution that will cure all the so-called bottlenecks and, not too long ago, even our own hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning complained of the bottlenecks. We are trying to provide a solution by saying in Lumezi, where we do not have Technical Education Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training(TEVET) institutions, why can we not have even surplus funds be used to build infrastructure that can house these TEVET schools?
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much,Madam Speaker. I apologise to the hon. Member for Lumezi for disturbing his flow of thought.
Madam Speaker, my procedural point of order is related to the urgent matter of public importance, which was raised last week on Wednesday, on the hon. Minister of Health.
Madam Speaker, the Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa, Hon. Twasa, raised a matter of urgent public importance regarding the desperate situation obtaining in our health facilities; hospitals and clinics. There isa lack of medicines and a number of necessities, and our people are desperate.
The hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker directed the hon. Minister of Health to issue a ministerial statement today, Wednesday, 15th June, 2022. Is the Executive in order to remain quiet without informing you why the hon. Minister of Health has not come to the Floor as directed by the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker?
We seek your serious guidance on this very urgent matter of public importance.
Madam Speaker: Thank you for that observation, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, but the hon. Minister of Health is to render a ministerial statement as directed by the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker tomorrow, which is Thursday, and not today. So, the directive was for tomorrow.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Well, the record I have indicates that it is tomorrow. Anyway, tomorrow is just another day away. Let us wait and see what happens tomorrow. Thank you for that.
The hon. Member for Lumezi may proceed.
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for permitting the voice of Lumezi to continue supporting this non-controversial and non-political Motion.
Madam Speaker, it has become a trend that announcements are made, to attract many likes on social media, that we have released the CDF, money that cannot be utilised in our respective constituencies. It has become a culture. Let me put this in its right context; it is an ugly culture. We announce and then we do nothing. Here, we want to blame the technocrats when it is our solemn duty to do the right thing.
Madam Speaker, we cannot be opposing everything with political lenses. We have situations in which hon. Members who do not have boarding schools in their constituencies receive money to pay boarding fees. Why not use that money to build a boarding school?
Madam Speaker, the CDF, if –
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, as you debate, please, stick to the Motion. Do not debate general matters relating to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and its implementation.
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the Motion that we are debating today is progressive and well-intended for the people of Zambia. So, it should not be shot down or be said to be Brought in Dead (BID) when we know very well that in our respective constituencies, we who were elected, not nominated, there are problems. There is a difference.
Hon. Member: Question!
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, people should not be influenced by Nominated hon. Members to shoot down this progressive Motion.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, speaking from the valleys of Chitukulu in Lumezi, I urge this House to support the Motion.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Thank you very much Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate in support of the Motion on the Floor of the House, which urges the Government to amend the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) guidelines to include tertiary education, among many other things.
Madam Speaker, I support this Motion basically because, firstly, it is non-controversial and, secondly, non-political. As a matter of fact, there is always truth in collective wisdom.
Madam Speaker, many people have complained about the guidelines, and I can mention some people who have complained. Number one on the list is His Excellency the President, who has publicly complained about the administration of the CDF. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, seated here, in this Chamber, has complained about the administration of the CDF, too, because of these guidelines. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development –
Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, my point is in relation to Standing Order No. 65, which is on relevance.
Madam Speaker, I am getting confused with what is coming out. I do not know whether we are talking about the guidelines and the challenges related to them or we are talking about the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Chama North, which is on expansion of activities of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to include bursaries at the tertiary education level.
Mr Kapyanga: Among other things.
Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the issue is expansion, not the bottlenecks that are being talked about.
Madam Speaker, are our colleagues in order to belabour, hour after hour, things that are not in the Motion?
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have already guided that as we debate, let us stick to the Motion. The Motion urges that this House urges the Government to amend the 2022 CDFGuidelines, to among other objectives, to expand the utilisation of funds to tertiary education. So, we have to read in context that the expansion should, among other outcomes, expand the utilisation of the funds. It is the utilisation of the funds that needs to be expanded.
Hon. Opposition Members: Among other things!
Madam Speaker: Among other things, it is to expand the utilisation. So, let us stick to the Motion. If the Motion is not properly written, then, maybe, let us have a proper Motion. Otherwise, we stick to the Motion that is on the Floor. So, as we debate, hon. Members, let us stick to the Motion. Otherwise, we will lose the context in which we are debating.
Hon. Member for Lunte, you may proceed.
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member who rose on a point of order did not even apologise for disturbing my flow of thought. However, it is all right.
Madam Speaker, let me continue by saying that the main thrust of the Motion is to amend the guidelines. The amendment of the guidelines is what has been causing confusion, and that is why you have heard the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning complain about bottlenecks; because the guidelines do not speak to the realities on the ground. You heard the President lament on the Copperbelt, and it is because the guidelines have a serious problem. That is also why your hon. Members on both your right and your left have been complaining about the implementation of the CDF. It is because of these guidelines.
Madam Speaker, to be more specific, I know that when a person seeks an amendment like the hon. Member for Chama North seeks the amendment of the guidelines, he/she is simply saying that we should make the guidelines better and easier to apply, and applicable to what is obtaining on the ground. The guidelines should address the real problems to do with tertiary education in our constituencies. The hon. Member is not saying that we do not want people from our constituencies to go to the University of Zambia (UNZA) because of fear that they will be trained to speak in Parliament. The hon. Member wants people to be developed regardless of where they are.
Madam Speaker, a few of us support the desire to amend the guidelines to make them responsive, better and speak to the problems that we are encountering on the political, social and economical fronts.
Madam Speaker, when you read these guidelines – I can take you to page 7, where there is mention of the CDF allocation, and you will be very surprised to see that even though we are saying people should be empowered, there are too many procedures that have to be fulfilled prior to that empowerment going to the people we aim to empower. As a result, this year is going to end, but no co-operative, club or the groups mentioned will get a loan.
What will be the implication? The money for 2023will be swept up into Control 99. So, even though the hon. Member who moved the Motion thanked the Government for expanding this amount from K1.6 million to K25.7 million, I would only thank it for making the announcement because what is sitting in theCDF account at Lunte Town Council is not K25.7 million, but K5.1 million. So, clearly, there is no increase. Until that increase materialises in that bank account,the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government cannot boast and say it has put K25.7 million.
Madam Speaker, the expansion of these guidelines is necessary. In fact, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development has been magnanimous. He has beenclear and he said that there are serious problems, responding to Hon. Dr Musokotwane. I do not see why the Member seated behind him said, no, things are okay when the hon. Minister who signed the guidelines – I have seen his signature here (Referring to the CDF Guidelines Handbook) – has been telling the nation that there are pitfalls. We need to resolve these matters. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development should urge even his colleagues seated behind him to not actually refuse what he admitted, and what the President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said.Otherwise, thehypocrisy will become worse than it is now.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I thank you, on behalf of the people of Nkana, for giving me an opportunity to add a voice. Let me start by, perhaps, acknowledging the fact that I cannot imagine being aMember of Parliament without resources being given to me for meto be able to address the challenges that affect my people.
Madam Speaker, today, we live in a very polarised society, where people do not even understand the roles of an hon. Member of Parliament to an extent where I get insulted everyday over the dilapidated Chibuluma Road, which job is supposed to be done by my uncle, Hon. Charles Milupi. However, the people out there think that it is my duty. Therefore, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) seems to be the equaliser for us hon. Members of Parliament to augment the Central Government’s responsibility in as far as meeting the needs of the people in the community is concerned vis-à-visdevelopment.
Madam Speaker, I, therefore, want to state that I am delighted at the fact that more monieshave been given to constituencies because it enables us to be able to confront the challenges that our communities are faced with. However, as was expected, the move from K1.6 million to K25.7 million was going to have teething problems. What we are expected to do, as hon. Members of Parliament, is to bring to the fore these teething problems that we would have identified. The last break gave us an opportunity to understand the real extent of the challenges that have been presented by the new CDF Guidelines. However, it must also be noted that even from yester years, the CDF has always been problematic in terms of guidelines. It is, therefore, the duty of this House to continue to refine these guidelines so that they do not remain an impediment in as far as the execution of this exercise is concerned.
Madam Speaker, I have a problem with us politicians being indoctrinated to the extent of always politicising issues. For the first time, I am actually shocked that an hon. Member of Parliament can actually stand and oppose an issue such as this one, which, ultimately, is going to help his standing in the constituency. The Motion seeks to ask the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, to, perhaps, give a leeway to the CDF to be able to go beyond what has been stated in the guidelines vis-à-viseducating our young people in skills development.
Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that there are certain constituencies which do not have boarding schools, like Nkana. Certainly, the Government’s desire to send young people to boarding schools could obviously have been met by no one because many young people in Nkana do not go to boarding schools. The question is: Where do we take that money to then?
Madam Speaker, in some constituencies, a meagre number of young people applied to be considered for the same skills empowerment initiative. The question is:from that K5 million, if two or three people are considered, where do you take the rest of the money? It is, therefore, prudent for any well-meaning hon. Member of Parliament to think outside the box and suggest that he/she be given freedom to support other vulnerable children.
Madam Speaker, yes, we are aware that young people who desire to go to other tertiary institutions like universities are considered under the loan scheme, but how many get sponsored? Out of the 10,000 who had applied to the University of Zambia (UNZA) last academic period, only 2,000 were accepted to be sponsored under the loans scheme. The question is: where do we take the rest of those young people if we do not have somewhere else to go to? Therefore, in all fairness, and if we reason without politicising this Motion, the CDF would have actually given us a leeway to support other vulnerable children who come begging at our offices.
Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that when I am in the constituency, I have created two specific days, Mondays and Wednesdays, when I attend to members of my communities from 0900 hours up to the last person goes out of my office. The majority of the people whocome to seek help in my constituency are young people who are vulnerable and cannot find their way into, for example,a nursing school. We should not think that everybody desires to have skills education. Some young people would like to join other facets of education, but they are vulnerable. I have a case where a child drops off in the third year at a nursing school because the father who used to sponsor him/her has died. He/she comes to me, as a parent in the community, but where do I look to because my salary is meagre? The consolation –
Mr Nkombo:Look to God.
Laughter
Mr B. Mpundu: The hon. Minister is saying I should look to God. I am looking to him,he is a demigod here.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the consolation for hon. Members of Parliament should have been that we look to the CDF. I wish to let you know that 958 children have applied for an empowerment programme in Nkana, which costs about K3 million. Where do I take the rest of the money if not to support the other children who are vulnerable and need supportfor tertiary education?
Madam Speaker, I stand here ashamed to have somebody stand and object a Motion that seeks to help him. The people out there who are following this conversation must actually be crying that they have representativeswho can object these non-contentious issues.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr B. Mpundu:Why? It is because people are indoctrinated.
Interruptions
Mr B. Mpundu: I feel ashamed that every time we bring progressive issues in Parliament, people look at it from a political side of things. It is not correct.
Madam Speaker, I want to place it on record that these are teething problems that were expected in as far as the utilisationof the CDF is concerned. The role of this august House is to dismantle these grey areas, to unlock the problem that we have identified. So far, from 2021, no single project has been started in Nkana because of bureaucracy and inertial by colleagues in the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development who are mandated to execute these programmes. These are problems we must be dealing with here. When we speak, we do not hate on anybody. We are here because we are mandated to represent our people and their problems back home, which we bring to this House.
Madam Speaker, this Motion is non-contentious unless you are indoctrinated, which is very sad.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I stand here –
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
We should bare time in mind. Time is running out.
Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, thank you for according the people of Kalabo, a space in time, to express their views on the Motion, on the Floor of the House. I will give a brief background of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).
Madam Speaker, the idea behind the CDF was to supplement some issues related to developmental programmes in a constituency. Therefore, today, we are looking at amending the guidelines which never came out of this Chamber, but from the ministry.
Madam Speaker, what I want to say is this: Whilst there is a complaint that there are bottlenecks with the guidelines, the challenge is with the people in the offices. You can have a good law and a bad law, but you need a skilled person to execute that rule or instruction. As we are here, we are dependent on the staff employed by the local Government. So, you can have as many laws or rules as you would want, but the question is: Is there capacity to implement that which you want?
Madam Speaker, we should have been looking at the quality of staff in our constituencies than saying that we amend the guidelines. Even if we amend them, we shall still use the same officers in the councils and it will still be a non-starter.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr Miyutu: My contribution is that whilst we are looking at expanding and amending –
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 states that we must bring matters that are factual and verifiable. Is the hon. Member debating, who was almost crying here with a bottle of brown water for the people of Kalabo, the time he was standing there (pointing at the Opposition Backbench) in order to accuse officers in the council of failure to implement the guidelines when I have a circular done by the Permanent Secretary in charge of administration, Mr Maambo H. Haamaundu, directing principal officers that K733,441 be transferred to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) account revolving fund and that further guidelines on the management of the revolving funds would be availed and that guidance would be provided in respect to the procurement of the CDF motor vehicles and other projects? The Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and the Permanent Secretary have not given them guidelines on how to proceed and this circular was written on 21st April and received by councils on 27th May.
Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to accuse innocent principal officers who are carrying out instructions as given to them by their superiors?
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we are debating, I think we are debating from the experience that we have acquired through the process of engaging the officers and guidelines. So, each hon. Member is debating from that experience. I believe the hon. Member for Kalabo Central is debating from his experience with the –
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: So, if we have any counter points, let us raise them through a debate and not through points of order.
Hon. Member for Kalabo Central, you may proceed.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the CDF Guidelines are on the table and they need implementation. So, it is up to the officers. As I speak, we are done with the 2022 Budget for the CDF. We are at the procurement stage. Thirteen projects for quarter 1 have been advertised and we are supposed to have a procurement meeting on Monday. So, I cannot side with the people talking of amending the rules because we are ahead.
Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Interruptions
Mr Miyutu: The second quarter is about to end in the next two weeks and all we want to see is the allocation for the second quarter of 2022.Other than that, the bursaries and scholarships are one item, which would have been part of the issue to increase the allocation so that it caters for the vulnerable. No matter how many amendments we will make, the CDF will still not be enough. We still need money in constituencies to build houses for 30,000 teachers who will be recruited. Where will the money come from? We need money to build staff houses for the 11,000 medical staff who will be recruited. We need money. This money is not enough even as we speak. We have many challenges.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, how many times are we going to expand? Are we going to expand at the rate at which allocations are going to be increased? So, expansion is high while the increase in allocations is low? What are we doing? Nothing. Let us have one thing that we are going to implement successfully. Let us do with what we have and when we see that we have managed, then, we can increase. How do we increase –
Madam Speaker, they are complaining about the guidelines, but then again, they want to add more work to that. That means we will have more challenges in addition to those we already have. In short, I, for one, feel we should not expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education. Let us implement the CDF, then, we can encourage the Government to increase the allocation to the bursaries and loans board and the Ministry of Education so that these two can handle the issue of those who want to go for tertiary education.
With those few words, Madam Speaker, I am not of the view of amending the guidelines.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Mpika an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this very important Motion.
Madam Speaker, I am a very worried person. The President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema, a few days ago gave us, hon. Members of Parliament, including councillors, a directive to find ways and means of resolving bottlenecks surrounding the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Then we have people –
Mr Sing’ombe: Not expanding!
Mr Kapyanga: The Motion says “among other things”. However, some people stood on the Floor of the House, with their emotions like seven spirits, and opposed this very important Motion.
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, as you debate, please, mind your language. There was a programme on television called ‘Mind Your Language’. Please, mind your language.
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Masholi!
Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.
Madam Speaker, where I come from in Mpika, we say ubwingi bwaminsoli bwapusawile imbwa, meaning many voices disturb a dog that wants to protect its owner.
Madam Speaker, the Government’s intention to increase the CDF and also to decentralise is a very good one and that is the more reason we should expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education, so that even the vulnerable children in our constituencies can be supported by the CDF for them to go to nursing and teaching colleges, among other institutions.
Madam Speaker, currently, the CDF only supports children in skills training centres and this is the reason I stand here to support the Motion regardless of the fact that in our account in Mpika, there is no K25.7 million. What is there is a little something over K5 million. However, the people there know that the money is in Mpika and they are coming to knock on our offices. Some want to go to nursing schools, others want to go to teaching schools and others want to go to universities. When they go to other offices, they are told to go and see the hon. Member of Parliament; that the hon. Member of Parliament’s office is where the CDF is.
Madam Speaker, this is the more reason we should all support this Motion. It is non-controversial. It is development centred and it targets our people; the same people who gave this Government the mandate to govern. There is no issue there. It is the people whom we are talking about; it is not the Patriotic Front (PF). Let us not see everything from a political lens. This is not a party secretariat. This is the National Assembly for our people.
Madam Speaker, the Motion says ‘among other things’, and we should also look at the processes. As I speak, Ward Development Committees (WDCs) have gone back to identifying more projects because we tailored our plans in accordance with the first quarter arrangement. There was a circular to that effect which came on 31st May, directing all councils to plan for the whole year. WDCs have gone back on the ground, again, to start identifying projects which we need to send to the ministry for final approval. This is the situation that His Excellency the President is concerned about. The year is coming to an end and no single project in Mpika or elsewhere has been implemented under the 2022 CDF. The Government must be worried that it will not have anywhere to sonta when the year ends.
Hon. UPND Members: Question!
Mr Kapyanga: If we implemented these projects, you are the people who would gain political mileage because you would point at what we would have done with this CDF.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, debate through the Chair.
Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much,Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, the position of His Excellency the President was that he wanted money to go to the grassroots, leaving Lusaka where the thieves are. However, the people in the same Lusaka where the thieves are, are approving the projects from the grassroots.They are the people who are approving the projects.
Madam Speaker, I think the CDF Act must equally be amended to accommodate things like women and youth empowerment and also ensure that the process – we are not saying that you lessen the guidelines because we want to find loopholes for looting the funds. That is not our position. Our position is that the guidelines must be fine-tuned so that they respond to the challenges on the ground. We need to make progress. We cannot always be talking about one and the same thing. Our people need those projects like yesterday. However, bureaucracy has prevented them from having those projects.
Madam Speaker, let me give an example of the road from Mufubushi to Kasenga, which was contracted and the contactor mobilised and heaped gravel all the way from Mufubushi to Kasenga. Now that the contract has been cancelled, the project has to be done using the CDF. The WDC will have to go on the ground to receive that project and submit it to the CDF Committee, which will submit it to the people in Lusaka, where the money was removed and taken to the grassroots because, apparently, there were thieves. The people in Lusaka will, maybe, take thirty days to approve that project, yet it is an urgent kind of a situation. It needs to be done.
Madam Speaker, the mover of this Motion, in his own wisdom, included the phrase ‘among other things.’ So, among other things, the guidelines must be amended to ensure that bureaucracy is cured. We cannot be here accusing council officers who are equally adhering to the guidelines. They are just adhering to the guidelines. We need to look at the guidelines and fine-tune them so that the intention of the CDF is well implemented.
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the people of Mpika –
Interruptions
Mr Kapyanga: Seven spirits, please, let me speak on behalf of the people.
Laughter
Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the people of Mpika have received the intention of the CDF with gratitude. However, the guidelines are denying them that very chance of having development through it.
Madam Speaker, I submit that there are equally vulnerable children who should be supported through the CDF. Let it not just be limited to those who intend to go for skills training.
Madam Speaker, the other thing is that under the boarding schools’ bursaries in Mpika, children who wanted to go to Lwitikila Girls Secondary School were denied the chance because according to the guidelines, Lwitikila Girls Secondary School is not a public –
Madam Speaker: Order!
The hon. Member’stime expired.
Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Chitambo has been anxiously waiting to raise a point of order. The time is 1607 hours. I intend to conclude debate on this Motion before we go for a break. So, please, let us bear that in mind as we raise points of order. Let us be precise and to the point.
Hon. Member for Chitambo, have you withdrawn?
Laughter
Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I even forgot about this point of order because you did not want to give me chance when that man was still debating.
Laughter
Mr Mutale: Being a former Whip of this House, Madam Speaker, and one who reads the Standing Orders almost every day, I just wanted to correct one notion about the way we dress in this House.
Madam Speaker, I am looking at the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central. When I look at Standing Order No. 206, it is very well explained on how an hon. Member of Parliament should dress.
Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central is wearing a trouser, but it is called corduroy or English khaki, if you like. The hon. Minister is wearing a coat and not a jacket.
I really want you, Madam Speaker, to help me understand whether all of us should turn to wearing those corduroys and coats when coming to this House.
I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.
Laughter
Madam Speaker:The role of the respective Whips is to follow-up the issue of dressing. I concentrate on the core business of the House. So, respective Chief Whips, please, ensure that the dress code is adhered to. I do not have to come in, unless it gets out of hand. However, so far, nothing has gotten out of hand.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, this point of order is extremely compelling and is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(2)(b). The information provided on the Floor of this House should be factual and verifiable.
Madam Speaker, I am directing this point of order at the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, Mr Chinga Miyutu.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, at the time that you raised your point of order, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central had already concluded his debate and he was seated. At the time, the hon. Member for Mpika Central was the one debating. So, your point of order has been overtaken by events. Now, let us make progress because we do not have much time.
The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, who is requesting this House to urge the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) regulations, among others, to expand the utilisation of the CDF to tertiary education.
First and foremost, Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Members of Parliament of the Patriotic Front (PF) Party for finally acknowledging that the CDF is a very important fund pertaining to the development of the constituencies. On the Floor of this House, our hon. Colleagues opposed the vote pertaining to the CDF. They had argued against it, insisting that the Government will not be able to provide the funds and the record is clear. So, I thank them so much for having appreciated that.
Secondly, Madam Speaker, I have listened attentively to my hon. Colleagues who indicated that the President of the Republic of Zambia made comments pertaining to the CDF. They also mentioned the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, pertaining to the issue of the CDF. If they are aware that the Government is aware of the issues surrounding the CDF, why would they come and urge a person who is aware?
Mr Nkombo: Imagine!
Mr Mwiimbu: According to the definition of ‘urge’, it is to persistently urge a person or an individual to do something. Now, if the people you are urging are aware of the things you want them to do, why are you urging them? This is being done when you are aware that the Government is aware, and the Government is doing something about the CDF.
Madam Speaker, it, therefore, follows that this Motion is mischievous, frivolous and vexatious and is thin and heavy.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The intention is to mislead the public that the members of the PF care more than the Government that provided funding for the CDF, which they opposed.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we …
Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: … as the Government –
Madam Speaker: Order!
Let me just give guidance. Hon. Member for Chitambo, you were given an opportunity to debate and the hon. Minister is responding. You debated and you were given –
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister –
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Sorry, you are the hon. Member for Lunte.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Can both hon. Members resume their seats, please.
Mr MwiimbuandMr Kafwayaresumed their seats.
Madam Speaker: Let me say something.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
We have core business on the Floor of this House which we need to attend to with the seriousness that it deserves. We are not going to squander time by raising unnecessary points of order. So, let the hon. Minister to continue debating. You were given an opportunity, hon. Members, to debate. Let him debate and then after that we vote. Then the matter will be closed. It is now 1614 hours, we do not have much time.
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, you cannot urge someone to do something when the person being requested to do that particular thing knows the issue and decides to intervene and resolve it, and it is not necessary to do that.
Madam Speaker, His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, is the President of the Republic of Zambia, and is in charge of the Government. He has directed the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to do particular issues pertaining to the CDF. Hence, you cannot come to this House to start questioning the intention and directive of the President.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Mr Mwiimbu: So, as far as we are concerned, Madam Speaker, we –
Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, debate through the Chair.
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, through you, the President of the Republic of Zambia is firmly in control of issues pertaining to the CDF. Guidance has been given to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development was supposed to issue a ministerial statement on the Floor of this House pertaining to the intentions of the Government, vis-à-vis, the CDF. There is no need for anyone to urge the Government to amend the CDF Guidelines.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: As far as we are concerned, we are not going to allow this Motion, which is not intended to smoothen the procedures pertaining to the CDF. We will not vote for it. We will proceed as per guidance of His Excellency, who is the head of the Government, as per request and as per issues that have been raised. So, for us, we will proceed as per guidance, not as per urging of the PF hon. Colleagues to amend the CDF Guidelines.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam, I thank you for the opportunity to respond to the Private Member’s Motion moved by Hon. Yotam Mtayachalo, who is proposing that we amend the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines to, among other things, expand the utilisation of the fund to tertiary education.
Madam, I wish to state that I do not support this Private Member’s Motion. The Government does not support this Private Member’s Motion because, clearly, the hon. Member’s Motion is completely misplaced and seeks only to do one thing, and that is to undermine the authority of the loans board.
Madam Speaker, allow me to remind this august House that in line with the Constituency Development Fund Act No. 11 of 2018, the objective of the CDF is to provide resources that are appropriated by Parliament for purposes of projects within the constituency. As we are all aware, the scope was previously limited only to community projects. However, starting in the year 2022 and the budget thereof, and in addressing the issue of education for vulnerable learners, youths, women, vulnerable people in the community and unemployed constituents, and in actualising the Decentralisation Policy via devolution, our Government increased the allocation of the CDF to a figure that you already know.
The increase was met, Madam Speaker, with a lot of resentment from the very people who are singing the song to provide direction on the utilisation of this fund. These are in common language known as toxic superstars.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, whether one likes it or not –
Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, just moderate your language as you describe –
Mr Nkombo: I withdraw the term toxic superstars.
Madam Speaker: Thank you.
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, whether one likes it or not, nine months into forming the Government, we are still in the transition period, and there is no doubt about it. There are so many things that we found upside down, which we are trying to put right. Where is the rush, to give direction to a process that you were never part of and you never ever intended to even fulfil,coming from? At K1.6 million, this country went for three, if not more years, without the disbursement of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Why do you want to claim the ‘superstar ship’ this time around?
Madam Speaker, we can never ignore what we cherish the most, and this is to attend to the vulnerable people, who I mentioned in my earlier submission. Therefore, the intention for skills development is for our human beings in this country, whom we recognised ourselves as the Government when we stepped in, because one of the biggest problems we have in this country is that of unemployment. We decided that side by side to employing a whooping 30,000 teachers and 11,000 nurses and frontline medical staff in the first year, we were not going to leave those peoplebehind, who never got a chance to be in a conventional classroom, and we would give them an opportunity to survive with their hands, thereby advancing the idea of artisanship and skills, which my colleagues already brought up, in order to lift them up to a point where they can also survive.
Madam Speaker, notwithstanding what I mentioned earlier on about the loans board and intentions to undermine it, let us just be very clear that this is unsustainable. The mover of this Motion, himself, did not even give us a road map of how these learners are going to be identified by who? Is this the reason one hon. Member here indicated that the relevance of hon. Members of Parliament is being undermined in the constituencies because they want to assume roles that are clearly not theirs?
Madam Speaker, I was told that people line up in Nkana Constituency, or is it Kwacha or Hon. Mpundu’s constituency, presenting credentials of how they want to go to school. Where in the world has it been the job of a Member of Parliament at his personal level to start enrolling students; it is the job of the Government.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: If there is extra money, as they are claiming now that there is extra money for skills training – How many of my colleagues, have all schools furnished with desks in their constituencies? Some children still sit on the floor. For goodness sake, we will support universal education, and I mean complete universal education, where a child – like when I was in Grade 1 in 1972, I found a desk, uniform and books because the formative years of an individual are from five to about thirteen. We want to make sure that we carry everyone along. The issue that my colleagues are pushing, unfortunately, is not sustainable. There is no road map or system.
Madam Speaker, let us not mix up guidelines and bottlenecks. The President has been very clear about the existence of bottlenecks, some of which are anchored on legislation. We need to change some laws. For instance, some hon. Members have been arguing that why should it be Mr Nkombo to approve CDF projects. I did not find that; it is embedded in the law and Mr Nkombo shall not be a Minister for life. One day, there will be another person from another party who will sit as a Minister and will be charged with that responsibility to approve those projects.
Madam Speaker, in response to Hon. Chitotela, we decided that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, the Ministry of Technology and Science, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development and the Ministry of Youth, Sports and Arts are going to collaborate to make this thing successful. How? The Ministry of Technology and Science is going to provide the knowhow for Technical Education Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training(TEVET). The Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development is going to provide a vehicle for people to establish co-operatives and also small businesses. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Art is targeting the youths who, for a long time, have been ignored by those who were there before us, and someone says only one person must be responsible; we are one Cabinet and we are one Government.
Madam Speaker, finally, I would like to say that grappling about no expenditure and no approval – I want to set the record straight. As I am talking to this august House at this moment, there is no single CDF file that is pending on my desk, but it is also true that some Members within this House and they know themselves, only brought the composition for approval, of the CDF Committee members and Ward Development Committee (WDC) members only one month ago. How do they expect us to move at aerial dynamic speed when some hon. Members of Parliament, from the left and others from the right, submitted that in November last year? Where were they? Let us just all work together. Whenour colleagues feel we must do something, they should come so we can sit down and agree on what is workable or not.
Madam, these guidelines they are referring to, were done after wide consultations, and I want to say that the biggest input came from an adhoc committee from this House, which spent not two weeks, but three weeks, with staff in my office to pulverise the content of these guidelines and we agreed, in no ascertain terms, apart from the involvement of certain members of our society, to be part and parcel of the CDF Committee. I shall soon come to make that, which the Government desires regular by legislation, to include for instance, three members of the community to broaden the decentralisation agenda and alsorepresentatives of the Government at district level being the District Commissioners (DCs). I will bring that here and I will seek your support.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, you can hear from the murmurs that some hon. Members of Parliament think the CDF is their money to improve their standing in their constituencies. For them to improve their standing in their constituencies, they should perform the role of a Member of Parliament. Do not pretend that you can generate money because this money is Government money, and at this time, the Government is run by the United Party for National Development (UPND).
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I thank all hon. Members of Parliament who have debated this Motion, for and against it. I think out of eleven, three debated against it, which is a clear indication that this is a very popular Motion.
Madam Speaker, education is the best equaliser and I think the people of Zambia have seen the way we have debated this Motion. Let us not pretend that we do not have pressure coming from our respective constituencies. Education is the best equaliser. Countries which have invested more in education have prospered, and that is why, today, countries like Singapore and Malaysia have achieved a lot because of investing in education. We are aware of the fact that accessing loans, under the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board, has been very difficult and that is why one student even committed suicide at the University of Zambia (UNZA) because she was not given a bursary.
Madam Speaker, I urge this Government to understand that this is not a controversial Motion at all; it is a Motion which cuts across political affiliation. It is important that in this august House, we do not take partisan lines as we debate issues of national interest, and this has been the call from our people. I urge this august House to think twice and support this Motion. I believe that if this Motion goes through, this will lessen the burden the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board has been facing because very few students are able to actually access the loans. We have heard people talk about the budgetary allocation and have urged the Government to increase it, but we are told it cannot be done because of budget constraints.
Madam Speaker, the people of Chama North are extremely disappointed that this Motion has not been supported by the Executive. After all, I even consulted some people on your right and they accepted that the Motion was progressive. However, I am surprised that today, people have made a U-turn and that is quite unfortunate.The people of Zambia are the best judges, and they will judge those against many children.
Madam Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament, we have been confronted with a number of challenges. Children come to cry in our offices because they cannot access bursaries under the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board and,meanwhile, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has access to funds. Surely, why can you not help those deserving children? For example, we shall spend less than K1 million for boarding secondary schools and skills training in Chama North. Then the K4 million can be used to sponsor vulnerable children in Katangalika and Kapingizya. This is a very sad development.
In conclusion, Madam Speaker, it is good that the Executive has acknowledged the bottlenecks in the administration of the CDF. Yes, the hon. Minister said a committee was put in place, but there has been too much confusion and several circulars from the ministry, which are confusing principal officers and that is why things are not moving. I urge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to resolve the bureaucratic system. As I was coming, a man of God asked me why it is so difficult to access the CDF, as it is difficult for a camel to enter the eye of the needle? So, my appeal to this Government is that this bureaucracy will take us nowhere. We are in June and if we do not resolve these bottlenecks – For example, why should disaster management issues go to the Attorney-General’s Office or the Treasury for clearance? Surely, even for emergencies like buying of boards and repairing of blown off roofs, we have to wait for three months. I do not think that –
Madam Speaker: Order!
The hon. Member’s time expired.
Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.
Questionthat,this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education put and the House voted.
Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker; a very serious one. It is a technical point of order.
Madam Speaker: Order! We are in the process of voting. So, let us not interrupt the voting. Let us finish voting then –
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I have a problem with the gadget, and that is why I am raising a technical point of order. I remember Hon. Mwiimbu raising this issue the time we were voting, and this is a technical issue that I am raising.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Members!
The Information Communication Technology (ICT) officers are aware of all the challenges and will address them as and when they arise. So, please, bear with us.
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the challenge has nothing to do with ICT. On my gadget, it is showing yes – 43 and no – 58, and on the gadget for the hon. Member for Lukashya, it is showing yes – 42 and no – 52. How?
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members! We were all born before computers. I think I was also very fast because it is my first time to use this process. It appears hon. Members voted before the system opened. So, in order to deal with this issue, all the hon. Members will be logged out, and then, we will start afresh. My sincere apologies.
Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Business was suspended from 1645 until 1705 hours.
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
Madam Speaker: Order!
When Business was suspended, the house was considering the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Chama North that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education, and the House was about to start voting. The House will now continue with the voting process.
Before we continue, do all the hon. Members have their gadgets? Can we have an indication of the hon. Members who do not have their gadgets so that they can be assisted.
Some hon. Members indicated that they did not have their gadgets.
Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: What has happened? What is the point of procedure?
Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the doors are still open.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: They have not yet said the doors – We are starting the whole process afresh. So, do not worry. At one point, they will definitely be closed.
Silence
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: What has happened?
Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I am getting concerned. According to the procedures of this House, when a division is called, there is a time that is prescribed within which the vote should take place. However, from the look of things, people are accessing the e-Chamber on their phones. How are we going to authenticate the result of the vote?
Interruptions
Mr Mung’andu: Listen! What if I have two or three phones? It is possible for one person to vote three or four times. Parliament gave us gadgets and, if some people do not have their gadgets, they should not participate in voting.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr Mung’andu: It is a serious concern, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, your concerns have been taken note of. However, it is not possible to vote on a private phone. All the hon. Members are going to use the gadgets provided by Parliament, and that is why I asked the hon. Members who do not have their gadgets so that they can be assisted. So, the hon. Members who do not have their gadgets should indicate so that they may be provided with institutional gadgets for purposes of voting only. After that, the gadgets should be handed back.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics was just mocking me by showing me the e-Chamber on his phone, saying, “Here is the e-Chamber”. So, we are really getting worried.
Madam Speaker: No, do not worry.
Mr Kapyanga:Fyalishitisha.
Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: We are just about to start voting.
Mr Kapyanga: Tayali alishitisha.
Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: On whom, hon. Member for Chilubi?
Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my point of order is anchored on Standing Order No. 151.
Madam Speaker, I do not know which bell we will recognise because Standing Order No. 151(3) prescribes that five minutes after the bell has rang, the doors should be closed. However, the doors have been open for some time now.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Chilubi, if you were listening, you heard the hon. Member for Lumezi raise the same point and I guided that we have not yet started the process; we are just ensuring that hon. Members have their gadgets. When we are sure that all the hon. Members have their gadgets then we will start the process. So, just be patient. It is the first time we are doing this, and we are all learning. Please, just hold your fire.
Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: I do not know whether people are now trying to fill in the spaces; like playing a song during a radio programme when there is nothing to do. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Lumezi wants to be that song.
Laughter
Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you very much, kind Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, my concern is that you bought us gadgets, as Parliament, but it is possible that some people sold them and bought tyres in their constituencies. Could you, please, reprimand Hon. Tayali.
Madam Speaker: What did I say? It is entertainment time.
Thank you very much, hon. Member for Lumezi.
Hon. Member: Point of order, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Members: Ah!
Inaudible
Madam Speaker: You will discuss when you go outside.
Silence
Madam Speaker: Order!
I put the question.
The question is that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education.
The House will vote electronically using the e-Chamber. For purposes of voting, please, ensure that you all log out of the e-Chamber. Have we all logged out?
Hon. Members: Yes!
Madam Speaker: Anybody with challenges?
Next, please, ensure that you have logged in to the e-Chamber. Now, let us log in to the e-Chamber.
Hon. Memberslogged in,some with the assistance of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) staff.
Madam Speaker: Any hon. Member with challenges on how to log in?
Hon. Member: Yes, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Who has a challenge?
Can we proceed.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Are we all logged in?
Hon. Members: Yes!
Madam Speaker: When you hear, the paging sound, the vote has opened and the voting screen is displayed on your microphone unit.
The paging sound rang.
Madam Speaker: Are we all there? No voting yet. Followthe instructions.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Select the “Present” key on top.
On the top right side of the screen, you will see the words “Please cast your vote”. Have we seen that?
Hon. Members: Yes!
Madam Speaker: Select one of the options, “Yes”, “No”, or “Abstain”.
Once you have selected one of the options, you will see the words “vote has been cast” on the right side of the screen. Have we all seen that?
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Any hon. Members having a challenge?
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
When you hear the second paging sound, the vote will close after one minute.
(Paging sound)
Interruptions
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker. Figures are not adding up.
Hon. Government Members: Ah!
Hon. Government Member: Can we progress!
Madam Speaker: Order, order!
It is just IT. You know these things of computers. Let us wait.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, order!
I think the hon. Minister of Technology and Science has a lot of work to do for all of us. We have just encountered a technical problem. So, we have to do the process all over again. My sincere apologies.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: So, can we start the process again? I will start with the question.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon Members! I will start with the question.
Question, that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education put and the House voted.
Now, the House will vote electronically using the e-Chamber. Please ensure that you log out of your e-Chamber. Can we all log out. Have we all logged out?
Hon. Members: Yes!
Madam Speaker: To start the process afresh, can we now log in.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Have we logged in?
Hon. Members: Yes!
Madam Speaker: When you hear the paging sound, it means the vote has opened and the voting screen is displayed on your microphone unit.
(paging sound).
Madam Speaker: Select the present key.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: On top.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: On top. Let us follow the instructions then maybe we will be able to be successful. On top – The right side of the screen. You will see the words “please cast your vote”. After you select the present key, which is in blue, you cast your vote.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Select one of the options, “Yes”, “No” or “Abstain”. Once you have selected –
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, order!
Let us listen to instructions otherwise, we will not be able to vote. Once you have selected one of the options, you will see the words “vote has been cast” on the right side of the screen.
Have we all voted.
Hon. Members: Not yet.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us be fast before the system gives up on us again. Have we all voted?
Mr Katambo: Hon. Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Which hon. Member is speaking?
Mr Katambo: Hon. Katambo from Masaiti, Madam Speaker. The present button is not pressing. It is frozen. The gadget is frozen.
Madam Speaker: Have you been updating your e-Chamber?
Mr Katambo: Madam Speaker, magic has been done. Thank you very much, I have cast my vote.
Madam Speaker: Alright, let us do it quickly before the vote closes. So, when you hear the paging sound, the vote will close after one minute.
(paging sound).
Madam Speaker: You have just voted.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, there is still a problem. We are still getting different figures here.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, just bear with us. The Office of the Clerk is taking note of how the voting is happening.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: So, hon. Members, voting has been closed and the results are as follows:
Hon. Opposition Member: Madam Speaker, we still have a problem with this voting system because even the numbers are not tallying. The number of votes cast –
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, that is a technical issue that will be attended to. Let us close this set. Let us close the voting. It is closed. I need to announce the results.
Ayes – (45)
Mr A. Banda
Mr Chala
Mr Chanda
Mr Chibombwe
Mr C. Chibuye
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chitotela
Mr E. Daka
Mr Fube
Mr Kabaso
Mr Kafwaya
Mr Kalobo
Mr Kampyongo
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Mr Katambo
Mr Katotobwe
Mr Lungu
Ms Lungu
Mr Lusambo
Ms Mabonga
Mr Malanji
Mr B. Mpundu
Mr C. Mpundu
Mr Mukosa
Mr Mulebwa
Ms Mulenga
Mr Mundubile
Mr Mushanga
Mr Elias Musonda
Mr Emmanuel Musonda
Mr Mutale
Mr Mtayachalo
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwanza
Ms Nakaponda
Ms Nyirenda
Ms Phiri
Mr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Simumba
Mr Twasa
Mr Menyani Zulu
Mr Munir Zulu
Noes – (70)
Mr Amutike
Mr Anakoka
Mr Andeleki
Mr J. Banda
Mr Chaatila
Mr Chikote
Mr Chilundika
Mr Chinkuli
Ms Halwiindi
Mr Hamwaata
Mr Jamba
Dr Kalila
Mr Kambita
Mr Kamboni
Mr Kamondo
Mr Kandafula
Mr Kapala
Mr Katakwe
Mr Lihefu
Mr Lufuma
Mr Lumayi
Eng. Mabenga
Mr Mabeta
Mr Malambo
Mr Mapani
Mr Matambo
Mr Mbangweta
Mr Mbao
Mr Michelo
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mubanga
Mr Mubika
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulaliki
Mr Mulunda
Mr Mulusa
Mrs Mulyata
Ms Munashabantu
Mr Munsanje
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Musumali
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mutinta
Mr Mwambazi
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwene
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Nanjuwa
Mr Ngowani
Mr Nkandu
Mr Nyambose
Eng. Nzovu
Mr S. P. Phiri
Ms Sabao
Mr Samakayi
Ms Sefulo
Mr Siachisumo
Mr Sialubalo
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Simbao
Mr Simunji
Mr Simushi
Mr Simutowe
Mr Simuzingili
Mr Sing’ombe
Brig-Gen. Sitwala
Ms Tambatamba
Mr Tayali
Mr Tayengwa
Mr Wamunyima
Abstentions – (01)
Mr E. Tembo
Question accordingly negatived.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, an objection.
Madam Speaker, what I have here on my screen is: Total Present – 131, Ayes – 51, Noes – 69. We all logged in at the sametime. Hon. Kafwaya’s tablet here that I have shows, Present – 134, Noes – 77, Ayes – 52 and Abstention – 1. Hon. Mung’andu’s tablet shows, Present – 134, Noes – 77, Ayes – 52 and Abstention – 1.
Madam Speaker, I hope you are taking note because this is a petition.
Interruptions
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, –
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, your concerns have been taken. However, voting has been closed. The results have been declared. The concerns that you have raised are technical. Kindly put them in writing and they will be investigated. We need the Business to proceed.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are only going to concede to that guidance, if you accept that our petition will be sustained because we have petitioned and our grounds of petition are here. So, whilst we have the grounds of petition with us, we want you to assure us that these grounds will be taken into account. Then, we will be at peace. Otherwise, we cannot accept an election with so many distortions.
Madam Speaker: They will definitely be taken into account, hon. Member. We are using a technical system. They will be taken into consideration. The print outs will be made. Maybe, you can even save the results, make a print out and then, make a presentation.
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are ready to wait. We also want to be guided by the Standing Orders that declared these elections. Otherwise, we may need to suspend this, until we are clear with the voting process that will be opened.
Interruptions
Dr Kalila: You can go to court, hon. Member.
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, voting is about creditable results being announced and being acceptable to all. We have petitioned this and we are on the ground.
Dr Kalila: Hon. Kampyongo, go to court.
Interruptions
Mr Kampyongo: The court is here.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members, let us make progress. Let us not go to the Chitulika Ward or whatever ward that is.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: That is on a lighter note.
Laughter
Hon. Member: Question, that is my village.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: The results have been announced and declared. Let us make progress.
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we do not want to just be problematic. This is the first time we are using this system and if we cannot get it correct now, it will cause us trouble in future. We have been using the system that shows elections on the screen and there has never been any dispute. That is what we are used to. So, this is the first time we are having distorted results, and if we do not correct it now, it is going to give us problems in the near future. We would want to be clear now, Madam Speaker.
Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!
Dr Kalila: Go and get a court order. You can go to the Constitutional Court (Con Court).
Madam Speaker: Order!
I think now, we are not supposed to engage ourselves. The results have been declared. I have guided that the issue will be looked at. The fact that something has happened now and we have noticed that there are problems, gives more work to our ICT Department, to make sure that it corrects the situation. Even if we sit here and argue or do whatever, the problem will not be sorted out.
Hon. Members, you observed that even for the voting process, we had to do it twice. Still more, there were anomalies. That means the system we are using is not reliable. So, the ICT Department will work on it. Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, we have to make progress, because now, it will be like I say something, and you also say something. Let us sort it out later. You have my undertaking that the matter will be looked into and ironed out.
Interruptions
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, if we may be allowed to consult ourselves, so that we place ourselves on record properly.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members have the right to consult, but in the meantime, Business will proceed.
Hon. PF Membersleft the Assembly Chamber.
Interruptions
Dr Kalila: These guys – You will be suspended again.
Hon. UPND Member: No, I think they have sought some permission.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Can we make progress.
REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS
Mr B. Mpundu(Nkana): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Monday, 6th June, 2022.
Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?
Mr Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, in carrying out its duties, your Committee was guided by its terms of reference as set out in Standing Orders 197 (j) as well as 198.
Madam Speaker, Zambia has a long history of mining and is endowed with vast mineral wealth. Some of the minerals found in Zambia include copper, cobalt, gold, nickel, lead, silver, uranium, zinc and numerous precious and semi-precious stones such as emeralds and tourmaline. The mining sector is a significant source of Government revenue and employment, and attracts a large amount of foreign direct investment. However, since Independence, reference to the mining sector in Zambia has been skewed towards copper production, to the neglect of the other minerals that the country is endowed with. In view of this, your Committee undertook a study dubbed ‘Economic Diversification: The Case of the Zambian Mining Sector’.
Madam Speaker, the findings of your Committee are contained in the report. I am very confident that the hon. Members read the report and took time to appreciate the submissions from stakeholders and your Committee’s observations and recommendations contained therein. I will, therefore, only highlight some of the issues in the report.
Madam Speaker, as I have already stated, the country has a wide array of mineral resources. Unfortunately, the country appears to have failed to reap the benefits of these minerals and continues to rely heavily on copper as the country’s mainstay. Given this rich endowment of mineral resources, a number of stakeholders, including investors, government agencies and civil society organisations, have long questioned why minerals are not bringing as much benefit as they should to the country. Over the years, successive governments have acknowledged that the country is rich with mineral resources and in spite of this, continues to rely heavily on the copper mining sector. As a result of this acknowledgement, successive governments have made pronouncements that the country will diversify the mining sector so as to grow the non-copper mining subsector, pronouncements which to date have not been actualised.
Madam Speaker, a perusal of production and export figures from the mining sector shows that the dominance of copper has remained the same for many years. Compared to copper, other minerals have not been prioritised due to inadequate exploration, insufficient marketing of reserves and products of other minerals and failure to effectively integrate the mining sector in development plans through forward and backward linkages with other sectors of the economy.
One of the issues that stakeholders expressed concern over is the extent to which the country has been geologically surveyed. Madam Speaker, your Committee notes with disappointment that fifty-eight years after Independence, only a little over 50 per cent of the country has been geologically mapped and surveyed. The importance of geological mapping cannot be overemphasised to the growth of the non-copper mining sector, as it spurs investment in exploration and consequently in mining.
In light of this, Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly urges the Government to ensure that the rest of the country is geologically mapped and surveyed as soon as possible. Your Committee is aware that surveying of the country has been hampered by poor funding to the Geological Survey Department in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Your Committee is, therefore, hopeful that this situation will receive the attention it requires.
Madam Speaker, another issue that received prominence during your Committee’s deliberations, is the issue of the country’s mining tax regime. Stakeholders lamented that Zambia’s mining tax regime has been characterised by frequent policy changes and reversals. Your Committee is concerned that this unstable regime makes it difficult for investors to make accurate projections on their returns of investments, which may prove to be detrimental to the growth of the non-copper mining sub-sector.
In light of this, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that a very minimum, stable fiscal regime should be designed with in-built flexibility to both automatically capture increased Government revenue when mineral prices rise, and automatically reduce the tax burden for mining firms during periods of low prices without requiring frequent legislative changes.
Madam Speaker, if the country is to reap maximum benefits from the mining sector as a whole, and the non-copper mining subsector in particular, there is a need to ensure that value addition is integrated into the sector. This will create a significant competitive advantage and contribute to economic development.
Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government should take a holistic approach to developing the mining value chain. This includes strategies such as imposing levies on the export of unprocessed minerals, reducing the general cost of doing business, ensuring a reliable supply of energy; setting up of adequate infrastructure, providing suitable incentives for setting up of processing plants, so as to ensure value addition, and facilitating access to markets, among others. Additionally, the Government should provide for a suitable regulatory framework that emphasises on local content and increased participation by local investors.
Madam Speaker, as part of its programme of work, your Committee undertook site visits to a number of mines, both small and large scale. Your Committee was disheartened to see the state of the communities in which some of these mines are located. A case in point is the desolate state of the communities around some of the mines in Lufwanyama District, which houses Africa’s two largest emerald mines. The impact that a well-executed corporate social responsibility has in the communities in which mines are situated should not be underestimated. In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to continue to engage mining investors to ensure that they give back to the communities from which they take, so as to improve the lives of the locals in those communities.
As I wind up my speech, Madam Speaker, I wish to point out that the country’s traditional leadership plays a pivotal role in the non-copper mining sector. Your Committee is, therefore, confident that the roles of these custodians of our country should not be overlooked in all investment initiatives.
In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I wish, on behalf of your Committee Members, to express our gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. It is further indebted to all stakeholders who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary briefs.
I thank you for your kind attention and I beg to move, Madam Speaker.
Hon. PF Membersentered the Assembly Chamber.
Madam Speaker: I welcome our hon. Members who went to consult. I hope they have sufficiently consulted and I am grateful that they are back in the House.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Ms Sefulo:Yes, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion and urge the House to adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table on 6thJune, 2022.
Madam Speaker, in seconding this very important Motion, I thank the Chairperson for ably moving the Motion and guiding your Committee’s deliberations during the session.
Madam Speaker, while the country pursues a path of diversifying the economy, the role of investors is very important. While appreciating this role, however, I wish to point out that it is disheartening to note the poor record of corporate social responsiblity that your Committee encountered whilst undertaking site visits to mining areas. The low employment levels of the local people in the areas where mining activities and exploration are taking place is highly unacceptable.
In addition, Madam Speaker, your Committee also bemoans the poor record of corporate social responsibility by large-scale non-copper mining entities. This practice of taking from and not giving back to the community is highly regrettable. It is hard to believe that one of the mines your Committee visited, actually hosts two of the worlds’ largest emerald mines.
In view of this, Madam Speaker, I want to stress that your Committee recommends that local people are prioritised for jobs which they qualify to do. Your Committee also strongly recommends that as initial discussions for investment are being conducted with our potential investors, emphasis should be placed on the need for corporate social responsibility to be part of the operations of mining companies in the communities that they operate from. The Government should not shy away from continuously engaging these mining companies throughout their operations, to ensure that they are providing the communities with beneficial and appropriate corporate social responsibility.
Madam Speaker, as all hon. Members are undoubtedly aware, the importance of economic diversification to Zambia’s development, cannot be over emphasised. While your Committee acknowledges that the Government has for a number of years made pronouncements regarding diversifying the mining sector away from the dominance of copper, it cannot stress enough that without co-ordinated and practical solutions, the growth of the non-copper mining sector will not be actualised. In this regard, your Committee is hopeful that the Executive will take into consideration all the submissions made by the stakeholders. Further, your Committee is confident that the Executive will favourably address all its observations and recommendations, and take appropriate actions.
Madam Speaker, one of the things that we learnt as wevisited the mines is that the Government also needs to invest in security. Security is one of the cardinal and most important things, especially when it comes to emerald mining. We learnt, as a Committee, that the security that was available at the mines belong to the mines. In as much as there is police presence, the police presence is also on the mine companies’ payroll.
Madam Speaker, therefore, we urge the Government to make sure that it invests in security to make sure that Zambia’s interest is taken at heart. We also urge the Government to make sure that it is also involved in the bidding process. We disheartedly learnt that during the process of bidding, that is done online now, the Government is not involved in the biddings or inviting the bidders. This process allows the mines to be able to invite the bidders, a process that can attract or bring loss of revenue to the Government. So, we also urge the Governmentto make sure that it invests in that sector.
Madam Speaker, with that said, I beg to second the Motion.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mwila(Mufulira): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Mufulira this opportunity to contribute to this Motion –
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo:Madam Speaker, I want to start by thanking you for allowing us time to consult amongst ourselves, for the manner in which you presided on the elections that were conducted here, and also for acknowledging that the system we used is not yet reliable until such a time when it is perfected.
That said, Madam Speaker, we would like to place it on record that, we, on this side, have rejected the outcome of those results and that we will not accept to use that same system again until we are comforted that the system has been perfected.
I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu. Your concerns are noted. I am sure all of us would want to use a system that is reliable. I am also concerned that the system is not reliable. The ICT Department will be directed to ensure that the system works, so that the next time we vote, we do not have these challenges, but thank you very much for understanding.
The hon. Member for Mufulira may continue.
Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, I support this Motion and I would like to comment on what I observed from the report, which I took time to go through.
Madam Speaker, firstly, I agree with your Committee’sobservation and concern with regard to the geographical mapping of the country. The report actually confirms that only 55 per cent of the country isgeographically mapped. We are talking about diversifying the mining sector,and we need to have information of where the minerals other than copper lie, in the breadth and width of our country. So, this is a very important observation. We talk about diversifying the mining sector, away from copper, and our people in this country need to know where to find other minerals. So, this is a very critical concern, and I hope the Executive can address it and allocate the necessary resources to this area.
Madam Speaker, I want to refer to page 10 of the report, which gives out the statistics in terms of employment. The report gives facts about the number of people in this country whohave been employed in the mining sector. Between 2012 and 2020, the report shows significantly how the number of people employed in the mines has been declining. Looking at what has been happening in the mining sector, the period between 2012 and 2020 – in fact,after privatisation, we saw the mines move away from being Zambian owned to being owned by private investors. We all know that private investors’ interest is profit maximisation and not creating employment. So, even now, if the direction we take is to give the mines to private investors, my worry is that this number, which is already low based on the report that we have seen, will go further down. We expect more people to lose employment in the mining sector, if the mines go into private hands. What we need to do is to empower the Zambians. When the mines are owned by our Government or by the local people who have the Zambians’ interest at heart, jobs will be protected. What is found on page 10 of the report, with regard to the drop in the number of workers in the mining sector,is worrying because the mines are in private hands.
Madam Speaker, on page 13 of the report, there are figures of how the country has benefited in terms of the Mineral Royalty Tax. You will see that from 2011 to 2021, the Government has been increasingly collecting revenue through the Mineral Royalty Tax. In fact, the report shows that in the last ten years, the Government collected the highest in 2021 in terms of the Mineral Royalty Tax and revenue contribution to the Treasury to a sum of K9.9 million. This tells me that the Government’s policy, with regard to the handling of the Mineral Royalty Tax, has been positive to the country. The worry is the change in the Mineral Royalty Tax, where we are now going to lose it as a result of the pronouncement that this Government made. I think we have to maintain what is good. We do not need to fix something that is not broken. Clearly, on page 13, the statistics show that the country has been benefiting, in the last ten years, due to the increase in the Mineral Royalty Tax. I hope when the next Budget is presented, the Government will reconsider this because we have lost something that we held in our hands as demonstrated on page 13.
Madam Speaker, on page 23 of the report, your Committee talks about the impediments to growing the non-copper mining subsector. One of the impediments that has been brought out in this report is the limited intermediate mining courses. At the back of my mind, – we are currently talking about skills development. This report highlights that, in Zambia, there are courses to do with mining at a very high level such as degree level and above, but the report highlights that we have a problem with artisanal mining, small-scale mining, where our people have no skills or knowledge and all they do is find a bush, clear it and start mining.
Madam Speaker, with the availability of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), in as far as skills development is concerned, I implore the Government to look at this as an opportunity to guide our youths enrolling for skills development. The Government should work with training institutions and come up with short-term courses which will enable our youths gain short-term training in whatever mining programme it may be, so that when they have the opportunity to run small mines, they would have undergone training on how to handle mining opportunities that come their way. Otherwise, as it is, our people are managing small scale mines with no knowledge about how to go about it, and what we are seeing is not an organised sector. In some cases, we have even witnessed tragedies like deaths because our people do not have the skills. We can direct, especially part of the CDF, to short-term training, to enable our youths take up short courses in mining so that we promote skills in this sector. That way, we will promote this tropical issue, which was being considered by your Committee, to diversify our mining industry away from copper.
Madam Speaker, with those comments, I wish to place it on record that I support this Motion.
I thank you Madam Speaker.
Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important debate on the Floor right now, on the report that has been brought to this House by the …
Madam Speaker, I am sorry. I seek your indulgency, I have a problem with the nostrils. Can I speak without the mask?
Madam Speakerindicated assent.
Mr Mukosa: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.
… Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters.
Madam Speaker, first of all, I support this report and I congratulate the Committee that sat to deliberate on these important issues because the report highlights observations and recommendations that I agree with.
Madam Speaker, I will start by talking about the lack of diversification in the mining sector. The Zambian Government has not successfully championed the agenda to see to it that diversification in the mining sector comes to fruition. In Zambia, there are different minerals. There is not just copper, but there are other minerals in the non-copper mining sector. The fact that we have not exploited these other minerals has contributed partly to the country having a fiscal deficit that we have had year in and year out.
Madam Speaker, it makes me wonder why the Zambian youths, or the youths of Chinsali, should be suffering and are unemployed, when, as a country, we are blessed with vast natural resources apart from copper. In Chinsali and Shiwang’andu, or Luapula Province, there are vast deposits of manganese, which are mainly now being exploited by informal miners. In an event that the Government championed the agenda to diversify the mining sector, we would have a situation in which companies would be mining manganese, iron and other minerals in the areas that I have mentioned. Thus, people in those areas can be employed because there are many people such as accountants and economists, who up to today are looking for employment. They have qualifications and they graduated from their respective schools, but they cannot find employment because we are not helping them by exploiting the untapped opportunity in the minerals that have not been exploited.
Madam Speaker, the other reason we are failing to diversify the mining sector is that we are leaving this important agenda to the private sector. The previous speaker mentioned that the first objective of any business is to make a profit, and the second one is to ensure that that profit is maximised. So, if we leave diversification in the mining sector to be driven by the private sector and other business companies, we will have a situation in which business houses and the private sector will just be going for the mineral that is easy to access and where there are incentives. In this case, the Government provides many incentives to those who want to invest in copper compared to other minerals. So, perpetually, we will just be having people who want to be investing in copper. Therefore, there is a need for the Government to take a leading role and, if possible, even establish companies to ensure that they exploit other minerals apart from copper. Currently, I know that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) owns Kabundi Mineral Resources and also Ndola Lime. Those two are the only mining companies that are 100 per cent state-owned.
Madam Speaker, there is a notion that a Government cannot participate actively in the mining sector because it needs to concentrate on the role of being a regulator, but I strongly disagree with that notion. As I highlighted, there are two mining companies that are 100 per cent state-owned, and Kabundi Mineral Resources, is projected to start performing well. Then, there is a very big state-owned mining company in Chile, which is performing very well and is also generating a lot of money for the Government of Chile.
Madam Speaker, in China, there are eight big mining companies, which are 100 percent state-owned by the Chinese Government. However, people say that the Governmentshould just play the role of beinga regulator, yet the idea that we are not supporting is being practiced by countries like China and they are generating a lot of money, part of which, we are rushing to go and borrow and they are lending it to us. So, I strongly suggest that the Government considers establishing more companies that can specifically venture into mining other mineralssuch as coal, and not copper. In the Southern Province, there are many coal deposits butthepeople of the Southern Province are suffering, like those in many other parts of the country.
Madam Speaker, the Government needs to make some improvements at the mining cadastre because there is a problem.Most mining companies are obtaining mining licences for speculative purposes.When a serious miner wants to invest in a mining activity, he finds the area that he is interested inalready taken by a bogus company or a company that is not serious, and has a license for speculative purposes only. That is a serious problem that the Government needs to make sure it deals with and it should also ensure that there is transparency at the mining cadastre.
Madam Speaker, it also saddens me to read about a revelation in this report, that 50 per cent of the country has not been geologically mapped and surveyed. Now, how can we promote investment in the non-copper mining sector? It can be very difficult. So, the Government needs to ensure that it sponsors geological mapping and surveying.
With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I am, indeed, humbled to contribute to this report. I would like, from the outset, to thank the hon. Independent Member of Parliament for Nkana for presenting this report to the House, and the seconder, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi.
Madam Speaker, when I was reading this report, I remembered an African magazine that my father once gave me to read, not to stray off the debate, which talked of a country in Africa with so many deposits and he described it as a geological embarrassment.
Madam Speaker, at pages 6 to 9 of the Committee’s report, it talks about inconsistency in mining policies. Our country has succeeded in one thing, by being consistent with inconsistencies in the mining sector, and that is one of thebiggest challenges we have had. When I look at the New Dawn Government’s mining policy, I support one thing, which is making the Mineral Royalty Tax deductable because that is what the standard is, and that is what will attract investment. Looking at the mining profile of Africa and what the mining standard is, that has been done.
Madam Speaker, regardingthe issue to do with the mining value chain, at pages 39 to 40 of the report, the Committee proposes that we develop a mining value chain. Our country has, for far too long now, been a country where foreign investors get the raw material and take it out of the country. So, what this report says, which I support, is that there must be processing happening in this country. Why should we be just a country that gives attractive policies and we have no ownership of the mines?
Madam Speaker, Chile is one of the largest producers of copper.The hon. Member of Parliament, who isjust from debating on the Floor, actually pre-empted what I was about to say that Chile has a 100 per cent ownership at least of one mine, so that it understands the intricacies of running a mine.However, here we are, we get excitedwhen a mine says it will invest US$1.3 billion in the economy in Zambia. There is nothing to be excited about because that investment is just equipment written abnormal load,which comes into this country without direct benefit to the people. So, there is a need for the current mining policy to be adjusted to include what is being proposed here. We must have a mining value chain. Copper is mined, exported to China, and it comes back to Zambia as copper wire. Our Zambian builders, – we boast of infrastructure development, but we buy finished products whose raw materials come from this country.
Madam Speaker,as regards the ownership structure, if you own less than 50 per cent of a mine, you have no right to say we are benefitting from the mines because, first of all, you are not running any mine 100 per cent, so, how do you know the profit that should be declared? We have had unverified reports, several times, of lack of proper declarations from big mining companies.
Madam Speaker, without a mining value chain, we cannot sit at the table to discuss development of this country. We now have gold in Kasenseli. That gold leaves the country and is processed somewhere else.Why can we not attract investment by creating manufacturing and processing industries within the country? The trajectory of the inconsistent policies that this report talks about is the hell burnt desire to attract investors who just want to mine raw materials.
Madam Speaker, the investment in the mining sector has yielded nothing, and as a country, we have nothing to show. We remain in distress financially and this report talks about our desire of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) bailout. Different minerals have been enumerated here such as gold, lead, iron, diamonds, manganese, nickel, but today, the country is still on its knees financially. So, there is a need for the mining policy in this country to look at developing active industries. These industries do not need to be big but there needs to be a clear direction and desire to begin processing minerals locally. If other countries are doing it, what is wrong with our country? Why are we just interested in investors who will just export our minerals?
Madam Speaker, I would like to place it on record that the good people of Nalolo support this report. Thisreportsays that only 50 per cent of the country has been geologically mapped and surveyed;that is very sad. It is one of the saddest stories that can ever be told of a country that has been independent for over fifty years. Surely, in the whole of the Western Province, there is no mining happening, but in Angola, there is oil. There must be something fundamentally wrong in having a holistic approach to the mining sector by the previous Government. This is an opportunity forthe New Dawn Government to harness the real potential because, we, thepeople of Nalolo, are not excited to say there is an investment coming because an investment you do not own is not your investment. You must take ownership of the investment. To encourage investment that creates temporary jobs – after the resource depletes, the investor goes. The investor is here to make money. He is not here on the basis of charity. So, while the investor is here, if he has a tax holiday, you must surely have a sense of deep ownership. So, the structure of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) needs to be looked at surely. I do not know whether there is any moral reason a country like Zambia cannot run a mine; I do not understand.
Madam Speaker, in supporting this report, the Committee’s recommendations are good and I congratulate each hon. Member who sat on the Committee, for a job well done. If this country develops a mining value chain, I assure you, Madam Speaker, the economic narrative of always talking about bailouts will change.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, I wish to place on record the good report that your Committee has managed to couch out of its engagements. It is, indeed, a report that is an eye opener, especially on the on goings in the mining sector. The topical issue the Committee interrogated was about economic diversification; the case of Zambia’s mining sector.
Madam Speaker, I have noticed that despite the Committee having come up with a very good report, and instead of it visiting Lusaka and the Copperbelt, I would have loved it to have visited Central Province. Central Province is a very interesting case, and a very interesting scenario is unfolding in Central Province, especially in the area between Serenje Town and Chitambo turnoff. There are about twelve processing plants for manganese, in that particular area. I thought the Committee looking at diversification, and at things differently, would have taken a very keen interest in what is happening in that particular area where manganese is being processed by twelve different factories.
Madam Speaker, I also want to take a leaf from the same and urge the hon. Minister of Mines and MineralsDevelopment to also start talking about what is happening in that particular area. He should not just talk about the Black Mountain every day. The Black Mountain is not what will take this country to another level, but what is happening in areas like Serenje.
An hon. Member interjected.
Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, for me, I do not take kindly to people who want to debate whilst seated. They are thinking about football, and then, they want to debate whilst seated.
Madam Speaker, some of the challenges brought out by the people who interacted with our hon. Colleagues, at pages 19 and 20 of the report, are about the lack of transparency in the awarding of licences, illegal mining activities, and the lack of a local market for unprocessed minerals, especially non-copper minerals. They also talked about the highly centralised nature of the licensing procedure, and this is a very important issue. Further, at pages 37 and 38 of the report, your Committee brought out these particular issues and recommendations on what needs to be done and looked at.
Madam Speaker, it is very saddening that a person in Lusaka will give a licence to a mining company in Chitulika Village or in Shangombo, where he has not been. More often than not, an investor arrives at your farm with a piece of paper, and starts picking up co-ordinates, and says that he is now in charge and is the owner of the land. I believe that the granting of mining licences should be decentralised. I think that it will help our country a great deal, rather than leaving this huge responsibility to one office, the Office of the Director of Cadastre. I hear it has been computerised nowadays and that that has eased the bottlenecks, but that is far from the truth. That is not happening. So, the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Hon. Kabuswe, can be on record as being the first Minister to actually walk the talk and ensuring that our people get licences from their localities rather than travelling to Lusaka and fighting with everybody else.
Madam Speaker, of serious concern are the benefits from the mining sector. Your Committee has come out very clearly on that. As we know very well, the Mineral Royalty Tax is now deductable, meaning that if a company makes a profit, then so be it, and it can keep the money. If a company makes a loss, it will deduct the Mineral Royalty Tax that it paid. This is like telling the owner of the shop you are renting that you will only pay rent after making a profit. It does not work like that. You have already invested. The Mineral Royalty Tax must never be deductable. We ask the hon. Minister of Financeand National Planning to come back before the end of the year so that we can actually look at that particular issue. That way, some miners, the perpetual loss-making mines, will no longer say they never made any profit. I believe we can take a leaf from what is happening in Chile and other places.
Madam Speaker, today, we have seen an advertisement in the newspapers where a company called Rothschild and Partners, has been given six months to evaluate Mopani Copper Mines and then it can tell us whether the mine is valuable, and what needs to be done about it. This same company, Rothschild and Partners, is one of the companies that participated in the privatisation of the assets of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) and, today, it has come back. What has changed? This company had said that Zambia’s minerals on the Copperbelt would only last twenty years, and are not worth what they put on the table. How can this Government today, bring those characters back?
How can you do that? What are you doing? Where is your conscience? Look at them. How can you do that? That is unacceptable. The Zambian people will not accept this.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, debate through the Chair.
Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, I am debating through you. Look at them. How can they do such things?
Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: The topic is very interesting. There are still so many hon. Members indicating to debate, but my sincere apologies because we have to make progress. We move to the other side. The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, to debate.
The Minister of Labour and SocialSecurity (Ms Tambatamba): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond to some of the matters that relate to my ministry.
Madam Speaker, your Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters raised concerns in its report to the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, that fall under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. So, may I start by thanking your Committee for the immense work it did in the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly under review.
Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on the employment contribution to the mining sector, that has been highlighted on page 10. The Committee acknowledged the contribution of the mining sector to the national economy in the report. However, employment is evidently declining in the copper mining sector, while it is increasing in the non-copper mining sector. So, this has been the observation.
Madam Speaker, to encourage growth in the non-copper mining sector, the ministry that has the mandate of labour and employment in the country, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, will ensure that tenets of decent work are adhered to.
Further, the ministry will ensure that the provisions of the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019, which provides for certain employment relationships, such as part-time, flexi-time and hourly arrangements, are adhered to by employers. In addition, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security will work with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to carry out labour inspections like we have done in the past, but of course, optimising even more in the times to come.
Regarding the informal sector in the non-copper mining sector, Madam Speaker, the Government’s effort will centre around formalisation of the sector through the formation of co-operatives, registration of employment contracts and value addition, among other measures. It is anticipated that with such support, the non- copper mining sector will continue to grow and provide decent jobs, especially to the focus area of the youth.
Madam Speaker, on casualisation, on page 53, the Committee notes the progress that has been made by the Government in addressing casualisation. With regard to the minimum wages for mobile operators, the Government is yet to promulgate a specific minimum wage for the Information, Communication and Technology (ICT) related sectors, which includes mobile money operators, as it is still awaiting submissions from stakeholders.
Madam Speaker, the ministry is committed to addressing decent work deficits that include casualisation in all sectors of the economy. As indicated earlier, we want to optimise on the number of inspections in sectors that record the highest grievances that are submitted to my ministry and, indeed, petitions that come to my ministry. So, we will generalise, but we will also focus on the areas that are presenting the old point.
Madam Speaker, minimum wages are meant to protect vulnerable workers who due to different circumstances are unable to undertake collective bargaining through their unions. The ministry's approach is to encourage workers to belong to trade unions where they can bargain for conditions of service, more than what is provided for in the minimum wages. So, that is an area that through, our tripartite partners, we are continuously seeking better ways to even refine success.
Madam Speaker, on the Social Protection Bill, the Committee notes on page 63, the concerns on the progress of the Social Protection Bill. As highlighted in the report, the Government decided not to proceed with the Social Protection Bill, in its current form. However, various pieces of legislation on social security will be attended to individually. For those under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, progress has been made with regard to consultations on the Workers Compensations Fund Control Board (Amendment) Bill and it will be submitted to the Cabinet soon.
Madam Speaker, with regard to the National Pensions Scheme Authority (Amendment) Bill, consultations on the penalty rates, which have caused increased public debate on their impact on the performance of industries and companies financially, have together with other amendments received a lot of attention and have been concluded. However, with regards to the partial withdrawal of pension benefits, again an area of great interest to our people, consultations are still underway and actuarial evaluations on the proposed pension reforms are yet to be undertaken as these are very important to making informed decisions. We are giving it due attention with support from the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Bank. Once these processes are complete, the House will be updated on the progress or way forward.
Madam Speaker, with those few words, I submit that I support the report.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe) Madam Speaker, from the outset, I thank the Committee for bringing out various issues. This very insightful report gives a synopsis of the current state of affairs in the mining sector, and I must say from the outset that this Government is not happy about it and is committed to bringinga breath of fresh air in the sector.
Madam Speaker, two speakers on the Floor of this House have misled the House on the issue of the Mineral Royalty Tax. They have misled –
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, it is not our intention to be disturbing our hon. Colleagues from the Executive. These reports are well detailed. We did not have a problem with the hon. Minister who has just finished speaking on the report because she did it correctly and according to the way a Cabinet Minister should respond to a report.
Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is referring to copious notes. We want to hear the policy direction in responding to categorical challenges raised in the report, and there are directors to prepare responses to the matters highlighted in the report. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to continue using copious noteswithout a written policy statement, which will go on your record, Madam Speaker? We need this matter corrected, or else this House will turn into a circus.
I seek your serious ruling, Madam.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us try to control our emotions. Before the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development started debating, I observed something between this side and that side but I decided to ignore it. However, the hon. Minister should have a written statement, which should talk about the policy of the Government. I do not know if the hon. Minister does not have a written statement.
Hon. Minister, please, stick to your statement so that you articulate the Government’s policy on the issue of mining. You may proceed.
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I have studied the report and I am going to respond to specific issues.
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kabuswe: Am I protected, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: May the hon. Minister continue.
Hon. Member for Pambashe –
Mr Chitotela: Yes, Madam, I am raising a point of order as a Member of your Committee.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Pambashe, I have not recognised you. I said let the hon. Minister conclude. We do not have time, but your concerns and observations are noted, and I mentioned that to the Executive.
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance and protection.
Madam Speaker, let me reiterate or repeat what I said in the preamble of my statement that when some hon. Members were on the Floor, they made misleading statements on the Mineral Royalty Tax. The first one said that we have completely removed the Mineral Royalty Tax, which we have not done.
Mr Kapyanga: You have!
Mr Kabuswe: For the other one, I do not even know the kind of explanation I can give because the explanation he gave was very misleading. What this Government has done is to allow the Mineral Royalty Tax to be deducted for income tax purposes, meaning the moment you mine a tonne of ore anywhere, the first thing that you pay is the Mineral Royalty Tax. So, we have not removed it. When you begin to calculate –
Mr Kapyanga interjected.
Mr Kabuswe: You misled the nation, so, I want to make sure that I set the record straight.
Mr Kapyanga: Question!
Mr Kabuswe: That is the policy of this Government and this is something that we announced.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Can we have some order, please! Can we really have some order, so that we come to the end of this business.
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker,this is something that we announced on the Floor of this House. Therefore, people must not mislead the public on what we have done in terms of the Mineral Royalty Tax. The Mineral Royalty Tax is still there, except when you are calculating Income Tax, you have to deduct it so that we tax your profit. So, the Mineral Royalty Tax is actually there.
Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has embarked on a new policy formulation. We just finished undertaking provincial visits where we had sittings and people made submissions on this new policy, which we are crafting to address the many challenges that our friends left. The mining sector was left in a mess, and I have continued saying this.
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we want to bring sanity to the sector.
Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we are making –
Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chitotela: I rise on a parliamentary –
Madam Speaker: Order!
I do not like hon. Members standing and shouting “point of order” when they have not been recognised. I have indicated that the hon. Minister is responding to the issues that were raised during the debate. So, I do not know how he could have had a written statement. Would he have anticipated those questions or not?
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Sorry, I did not get that.
Madam Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has his microphone on.
Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity. We may sound as if we are talking about the same thing. Why this –
Mr Kapyanga interjected.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Mpika Central, if you continue disrupting the proceedings, you will be requested to leave the House.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Can we have order and not debate whilst seated. Can we allow the Leader of the Opposition to make his point.
Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, we, hon. Members on the left, take these reports very seriously and invest a lot of time to go through them. Our expectation, therefore, is that when a Minister stands to debate, he equally would have read these reports, taken time to study their contents and will respond to the specific issues raised. However, if his concentration here is merely to respond to what has been said by hon. Members on the Floor of the House, then, there would be some misalignment.
Yes, Madam Speaker, he can touch on some issues raised on the Floor of the House by way of rectification, but that cannot be his main statement on the Floor of this House. What, in essence, it means for us on this side is that we are all wasting our time reading these reports because we are not getting any reaction or policy direction from the hon. Ministers.
Madam Speaker, it is time this House is taken seriously because it is not about us. It is about the people out there. People pay attention to what is being said here. The mining sector is one of the key sectors of this economy, and if the hon. Minister is going to take it casually by coming with three pieces of paper and thinking that he has responded sufficiently, that is unfortunate. He is demonstrating that he is not seriously managing the affairs of this –
Hon. Government Members: Ah!
Mr Mundubile: That is the position.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr Mundubile: How else do you want us to interpret that kind of conduct by the hon. Minister?
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr Mundubile: We have had no challenges with the hon. Ministers who have come with policy statements.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker –
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Leader of the Opposition!
I do not know what is happening now. We are degenerating into something else and I expect the leaders from both sides to help in ensuring that there is order in the House. This idea of hon. Members just talking should not be tolerated. Otherwise, no points of order will be recognised.
Earlier on, I said that when an hon. Minister stands up to debate, he first starts responding to the points that were raised by the other side and then goes to his policy statement. He had just started, so, I do not know whether we know what he is going to say and what he is carrying on the table. We are pre-empting. Why can we not give him time to read his statement? Let us all be observant and see whether the hon. Minister has a policy statement at hand.
Sorry, hon. Leader of the Opposition, I hope we can proceed.
Mr Mundubile: Well guided, Madam Speaker. The point we are making here is that we expect our colleagues on the right just to pay a little bit more attention to these matters. These matters are not for academic purposes, but are matters that stakeholders are interested in, and the reaction from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is very important in this case.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: The point has been taken. This is not the last report. We still have more reports. Hon. Ministers, please, take note so that we are not perceived not to be serious with the work we are doing.
The hon. Minister may continue.
Mr Kabuswe: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We are well guided. We are very serious with what we are doing and we do not come here to play. We are serious people and we concentrate on what we are doing. We need to respond when people spread – I do not want to use the other word –falsehoods on the Floor of the House, misleading the nation on the Mineral Royalty Tax. Many people are misleading the public on this issue, when they do not even understand it. So, as Minister, I have to make sure that the country understands what exactly we have done as the New Dawn Government in as far as the Mineral Royalty Tax is concerned.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, points were raised about policy. I have just announced that this Government has begun reviewing the mining policy. We just had provincial sittings on the mining policy in Zambia. I was answering to that. That is the policy direction that this country is taking.
Madam Speaker, people talked about the issue of diversification, and I need to explain that because members of the public are listening to this Parliament and need to know whether this Government is diversifying in as far as minerals are concerned in this country.
Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Ah!
Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we, as the New Dawn Government, understand that Zambia has depended on copper, for quite a long time, and we want to diversify. However, anyone who ignores what copper is becoming today will ignore it at his/her own peril because, right now, it is projected that in the next five or six years, there will be a shortage of 10 million tonnes of copper worldwide. So, as Zambia, we have embarked on a programme to explore this country. Agreements are already being signed on exploration so that we can map this country, explore it and know the extent of mineralisation so that we are able to plan as to how we are going to ramp up production to 3 million tonnes per year in the next ten years. This is what this Government is doing.
Madam Speaker, you realise that people talked about the cadastre department. This Government through, my ministry, shut down the cadastre and we embarked on a programme to try and check the wrongs in the cadastre system. We came up with a report, and we know the wrongs and we are correcting them. For example, we discovered that one company owns fifty-three licences. That happened in the previous regime and these are things that we want to correct. So,we checked thecadastre system. We are making sure that it answers to the needs and requirements of this Government in as far as taking the mining sector to its rightful place is concerned.
Madam Speaker, we are not saying that we leave Zambians behind in terms of investments. We are looking at the number of Zambians benefiting from the licences because most licenceswere given to people who were speculating, and that is why we are looking at the cadastre system. All these things are being put in the new mining policy, which will now be a guide as to where we should take this sector.
Madam Speaker, I also want to respond to the issue of the social license. This Government is emphasising on respecting the social license.Most of the time, we have gone to the negotiating table and dealt with people who want to eat with both hands, people who do not have integrity.This New Dawn Government willbe intolerant to corruption.We want as people of integrity to sit round the table and begin negotiating on behalf of this country, bearing in mind that we are seated on these chairs because of the people who elected us and we are doing whatever we are doing, to meet the demands of the people who elected us. These are the kind of policies that we want to drive.
Madam Speaker: Order!
The hon. Minister’stime expired.
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to respond.
Madam Speaker,I have policy notes, which I will refer to, but it is also our responsibility to answer to the many falsehoods that were put across on this Floor.
Madam Speaker, I thank yourCommittee for pointing out that taxes have been inconsistent and have been changing every other year, especially in the last ten years. That, indeed, has been counterproductive and what I can tell the nation is that, going forward, taxes will be stable because in the absence of stability, it becomes difficult for any serious investor, whether Zambian or foreign, to invest. So, we will maintain stability and plan how we willmove from mining 800,000 metric tonnes to 3 million metric tonnes of copper in the next ten years.
Madam Speaker, it is important to create this environment because I heard so many of my colleagues here talk about the fact that we are not getting enough from the mining sector. Yes, I agree, but the question is:How do we get more and more out of mining?It is through investments. You cannot expect to maximise your benefits out of any sector, whether it is a restaurant, mine or farm, without looking at how much production you are making. So, for us, we have focused on producing 3 millionmetric tonnes of copper in the next ten years. Remember that, in 1964, we were producing roughly the same amount of copper as we are producing today. That time, the population was 3 million Zambians. Today, the population is six times of the population in 1964, at 18 million.So, how do you expect the quantity that you were producing fifty years ago, to give you the same benefits when there are now six times more people in the country?It is illogical. So,the answer is that we must produce more and more, and the tax regime must be carved out in such a way that we produce more and more.
Madam Speaker, I am amazed that we are being accused of bringing investment in the country.By the way, with this stability that we promised, you can already see that, within a few months of being in office,pledges of investments are now flowing in. First Quantum Minerals Limited approved a US$1.25 billionproject and many others are coming on board. However, in the last ten years,our colleagues across there’sincompetence led in closing mines rather than creating new mines.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, can they tell us, in the last ten years, how many mines they created.
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo:Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about inconsistencies in the mining sector. I want to refer him to page 6 of your report, so that we are on the same page, as we talk to the people of Zambia.
Mining tax regime – on page 6, Madam Speaker –
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, are you debating or are you raising a point of order?
Mr Kampyongo:Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 demands that we –
Madam Speaker: No, no, no.If you have a point of order, raise the point of order.
Interruptions
Mr Kampyongo: I am raising a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, that the matters we debate here must be factual, and I am referring to your report.
Madam Speaker, page 6 of your report states that:
“Mining Tax Regime
The Committee was informed that Zambia’s mining tax regime had undergone several changes over the years, with the most notable changes coming after privatisation in the early 1990s. While these changes had largely affected copper mining, they also had an impact on the non-copper mining subsector. Some of the most notable changes to the country’s mining fiscal regime from the year 2000 as submitted to the Committee are discussed briefly below.
- Post-Privatisation Regime: 2000-2008 (The Development Agreements negotiated with individual mines at privatisation)
After privatisation, agreements were entered into between the Zambian Government and each company that had bought the assets of Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). While these agreements had never been made public by the Government, it appeared ...”
Interruptions
Mr Kampyongo: You wait, we have a report here.
“... that tax rates and other details differed to some extent from one company to the next.”
In 2008, and I assume the hon. Minister was Minister then, the Government imposed a tax regime –
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!The point of order that you are raising has not come out; you are now debating.
Mr Kampyongo: I wanted to bring out the facts, Madam Speaker, so that we are on the same page with the hon. Minister.
Madam Speaker: At the rate you are going, hon. Member, you are debating. I do not know what the point of order is. Why can you not go straight to the point of order?
Mr Kampyongo: My point of order is that the inconsistency the hon. Minister was referring to started in 2000 to 2008.In 2008, several Acts were done, includingthe one that was done in 2009, when the hon. Minister introduced Windfall Tax.
Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to apportion the blame on the inconsistency in the mining sector in terms of tax, when the record of your report is very clear? Is he in order toapportion that to us, who only came after 2011, when the mine was already in trouble? I seek your serious guidance and let us stick to the report. That is why I insist that when hon. Ministers debate, they must refer to the report, other than creating things in their own minds.
I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, a point of order, according to our Standing Orders, must be precise and to the point. You have sufficiently debated the point of order you have raised, and is, therefore, not admissible.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Order!
ADJOURNMENT
The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
Question put and agreed to.
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The House adjourned at 1912 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 16thJune, 2022.
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