Friday, 10^th June, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

Madam, on Tuesday, 14^th June, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate the motions to adopt the reports of the following Committees:

     (a)   Committee on Parastatal Bodies, on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of Parastatal

            Bodies and other Statutory Institutions for the Financial Year ended 31^st December, 2019; and

    (b)    Committee on Government Assurances.

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 15^th June, 2022, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will consider a Private Member’s Motion entitled “Amend Constituency Development Fund Guidelines” to be moved by Mr Y. Mtayachalo, Member of Parliament for Chama North Parliamentary Constituency. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will, then, debate the motions to adopt the reports of the following Committees:

     (a)   Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters; and

     (b)   Committee on Youth, Sport, and Child Matters.

Madam, on Thursday, 16^th June, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate the motions to adopt the reports of the following Committees:

     (a)   Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs; and

    (b)    Committee on Education, Science and Technology.

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 17^th June, 2022, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will consider Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will, then, debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, the issue of the United States African Command (AFRICOM) Centre has been very topical within the region and locally. Zambia is a member of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Security Council. It is also a member of the Joint Permanent Commission on Politics, Defence and Security, like all SADC members.

Madam Speaker, we are aware that there has been no consultation between Zambia and SADC member States on AFRICOM. We are also aware, Madam Speaker, reading from the media, that members of the SADC region have rejected AFRICOM.

Madam Speaker, obviously, to admit and accept to set up AFRICOM offices casts Zambia in very bad light with other member States.

Does Her Honour the Vice-President not think it very important and necessary for Zambia to rethink this position seeing that other members surrounding us are not in support? Does she not think we should rethink this position?

The Vice-President: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member and Leader of the Opposition in the House for that concern.

I do agree, Madam Speaker, that there have been reports, particularly on social media, on the establishment of the United States African Command (AFRICOM) Centre. To start with, I will call this ‘misinformation’ of whatever it is. I know that there are these reports, but contrary to the misinformation and disinformation, Madam Speaker, the United States of America (USA) is in the process of establishing – you know, this is the misinformation– US bases in Zambia through AFRICOM, which is aimed at endangering lives of Zambians. This is what the hon. Member is saying. He is saying this has been rejected in the region.

Firstly, we are a sovereign State, and there are things in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and other countries that happen that we do not subscribe to, but we are still members of SADC.

I would like to inform the nation that the office being created is an office for security co-operation, which will be based at the US Embassy. There will be no base in this country; that is misinformation. There will be no base. This office will work hand in hand with the defence forces of Zambia to enhance military relations, expand co-operation enforce management and modernisation as well as military professionalism.

Madam Speaker, Zambia, like many other countries within the region and beyond, has had military co-operations. The hon. Member who asked the question is a member of the former ruling party. He should, surely, know that there has been this relationship. It is not a new relationship. We are simply enhancing the co-operation, and that has nothing to do with a base.

Madam Speaker, the AFRICOM being referred to on social media platforms is based in Germany, and the Zambian Government has not, at any given time, agreed to move it to Zambia. So, we do not know what the hon. Member is talking about. The hon. Member next to him must know that America ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: ... and Zambia have had a relationship over time. There has been co-operation. There is nothing new except enhanced co-operation and increased relationships.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: That is true. We have a longstanding relationship with AFRICOM in the area of peacekeeping.

The hon. Member ran the ministry that is also closely related to security. He knows that we have had relationships in areas of peacekeeping that has predated this administration.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: Oh yes. That is true. It has predated this administration and has benefited our military. Zambia has no intention, whatsoever, of establishing or hosting any foreign or allied military base on Zambian soil.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: So, I think I have said enough. Those who want to hear have heard. We have no intention of bringing a military base here, but our decisions must be based on the interests of Zambians, as number one, and sovereignty, as number two, of course, in consideration of neighbours.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out when the Government is coming to this House to announce the floor price of maize for the 2022 marketing season. I ask this question because grain dealers have already started going to the countryside or the rural areas buying the 2022 crops. When is the Government coming to this House to announce the floor price for 2022?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Dundumwezi for showing concern on when the floor price for maize grain will be announced this year. I think all of us have followed that the announcement of the floor price is actually determined by the people who are in the industry. In this matter, it is the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) that announces the floor price. It is our hope that within a week or two, this will be done so that our farmers can trade their products at the right price.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, the last farming season was characterised by drama. Trucks of fertiliser were seen and it was said that fertiliser had been distributed when, in fact, there was no fertiliser. It was said that fertiliser had been purchased and money had been paid, but people had not delivered even a bag. The Government had to go out of its way to purchase fertiliser at the end, in November, by people who are corrupt.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: As her Honour the Vice-President knows, there is war in Ukraine. Is she able to give confidence, because we are full of confidence as the United Party for National Development (UPND), that in this farming season, there is no apprehension as regards the supply of fertiliser and that there is going to be fertiliser unlike what happened in the previous season where former Government officials used hook and crook and corruption, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: ... to steal a lot of money through fertiliser deals. 

Hon. PF Members: Alpha Commodities!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mwembezhi for asking the question on issues pertaining to the delivery of fertiliser, and probably the entire Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). If I could be allowed, I would give the entire picture, although, I know the hon. Minister can do it better. 

Madam Speaker, this Government is extremely prepared for the coming season. As I said yesterday, we are going to continue with the Direct Input Support (DIS) to all beneficiaries as we wait to clean up the register. The DIS will continue at the same rate, that is, six bags of fertiliser; three bags of top dressing and three bags of basal fertiliser. We are also going to continue to give out seed. We are going to give out maize seed, and that is not optional; maize seed will be given to every beneficiary and every member of a co-operative. We are also going to give out, alternatively, legumes; they have not been removed. We will still continue to give out legumes. One could choose to go with a 25kg bag of soya beans and, another, a 20kg bag of groundnuts. This has been planned.

Madam Speaker, over 1 million beneficiaries will be on the programme this year. I know there are issues of concern on the exit programme which we have not yet looked at as the Government.

Madam Speaker, on the purchase of fertiliser, I think people have seen the advert for the procurement of fertiliser already. It must have started running on Tuesday. In this procurement, we have done what we are calling or what you call positive discrimination. Our own plant, the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ), has been given, already, 50,000 tonnes. This is so that we can support it. The tenders are going on from Tuesday, for two weeks. This is our plan. We know the bids go at 1,000 tonnes only for those who want to participate in this. So, you can be sure that the process will be done by mid-July and, then, fertiliser will be delivered.

Madam Speaker, I hope the hon. Member has heard. We are very clear. There should be no hurdles. Our plans going well, we should have our people ready with fertiliser before the farming season begins.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President. I convey greetings from a cinema hall.

Madam Speaker, mine is just a follow-up question on the one posed by the Leader of the Opposition in the name of Hon. Brian Mundubile on the creation of the United States African Command (AFRICOM) Centre on the soil of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, may Her Honour the Vice-President be clear to the hon. Members of this August House and the nation at large on the Government’s position; is she telling the people of Zambia that the New Dawn Government has no plans, whatsoever, to create the AFRICOM in the Southern Region on the soil of Zambia?

We want Her Honour the Vice-President to be very clear.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I accept the greetings from the cinema hall. I was a little confused when he said, “greetings from a cinema hall.”

Madam Speaker, I would like to say to my hon. Colleagues that we have a duty to the Zambian people in this House, a very serious responsibility that has been entrusted unto us. What goes on on social media should not determine – and I am glad that hon. Colleagues are asking this question so that we can give clarity and dispel misinformation which can bring insecurity in our country.

It is just for the hon. Member from the cinema hall that I am repeating the same thing. I think I was extremely categorical that there is no intention, as at now, to have a base.

Laughter

Hon. PF Member: Answer the question.

The Vice-President: Chizungu mwana.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can we allow Her Honour the Vice-President to finish her answer?

The Vice-President: Let us be clear. The hon. Member has his microphone on.

The hon. Member switched off his microphone.

The Vice-President: Yes, it is my turn to speak, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: What I am saying is the truth. If anyone knows any other truth, I think it is important that he/she tells us. We are telling them from the Government’s stand point. As I am not God, I do not know whether, 40 years from now, another Government may come in and make that decision. However, as at now, this Government has no intention and there is no base. There is no designated place where a base will be established. So, I do not know what that means. Are we sure we have never cooperated?

Madam Speaker, this is the information I have. Let us not politicise something that is this important. When a base, as a command centre, is established, I think, then, one could say, “You stood on the floor of this House and misled the nation.” However, we are telling the House that there is no such plan or intention, and it will not be done; not now.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Mpika an opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, I convey warm greetings from the people of Mpika to Her Honour the Vice-President. Actually, they have sent for her a bag of caterpillars I will deliver.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, Zambia is a Christian nation, as enshrined in our Constitution in the preamble. On 17^th May, 2022, the Swedish and Finnish Embassies flew the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer (LGBTQ) flag in support of gay rights, against Article 20 of the Vienna Convention which only allows embassies to fly flags and emblems of their countries. Later, His Excellency the President stated the position of the Government; that it is 100 per cent against gay rights. Two days later, the American Embassy posted on its Face Book page urging people to celebrate what it called ‘June, a pride month.’

Madam Speaker, the people of Mpika are very much concerned that in our nation today, we have embassies, with impunity, going against the laws and the culture of our land.

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President what action the Government has taken against those defiant embassies.

I, personally, am worried, Madam Speaker. I would not want to be in a position –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, let us not waste much time; you have already asked the question.

The Vice-President: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interjection

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mpika!

The Vice-President: I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mpika for asking the question on the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer (LGBTQ) issue, a mouthful. Now, he has brought me caterpillars and it should come to the floor of the House?

Laughter

The Vice-President: It is so that Hon. Chilangwa can be sure I am safe after eating it.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Hon. Members, the issue of Zambia being a Christian nation should not be arising in our country. When we continuously ask this question, one wonders what it is about. For us, to start with, as the United Party for National Development (UPND), we have made this very clear. Even while in the Opposition, we were accused of embracing this thing, the LGBTQ issue. Here, we normally call it ‘gay rights’. We were very categorical while in the Opposition. We were accused because we were members of the Africa Liberal Network then. I do not know where they were getting that from, and we argued that despite the Sothern African Development Community (SADC) having member States which believe in that phenomenon, we are still members of the organisation.

Madam Speaker, similarly, we are members of the United Nations (UN) and even the African Union (AU) which have members that believe in gay rights. This is sovereignty. It does not mean that we should do what the organisation believes in; otherwise, we should be isolated. So, I do not know why we continue.

Madam Speaker, I will make a request also, even before I go on to the Swedish Embassy issue which was referred to by the hon. Member, that since we were questioned while in the Opposition, we also want all those aspiring to be leaders of the Patriotic Front (PF) to state their position on this matter.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Hon. Members, we also want every political leader in this country to state his/her position. The PEP; I do not know what it is called. Is there a party called PEP? The EEP? There are so many. Everybody must state their positions, Zambians demand.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We have been put under fire for nothing for so long. My President made it clear.

Now, the hon. Member has gone on to talk about issues in an embassy. To start with, hon. Colleagues, in the past four years the embassy has been flying that flag, where were they? Go and ask them.

Interruption

The Vice -President: Where were they? They were present.

Interruption

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: I am speaking something serious here. Hon. Colleagues who were in the Government, what did they do about it?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Now we are telling them. What is an emblem? He referred to the Vienna Convention. An emblem defines them, and under international law, which hon. Colleagues and I know, as law makers, you do not go and start interfering in an embassy. They did not fly the flag on Zambian land. Immediately you give land –

Interjection

The Vice-President: Please, the hon. Member knows I am saying the truth. Immediately, you give a place to an embassy, you have declared that land its own.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: This is the little I understand. How do you expect a person in an embassy in a sovereign country keeping somebody, maybe, as a refugee? I want to tell them, I want to state clearly here, as Zambians are listening, if they (the Opposition) are not listening.

Interruption

The Vice-President: An embassy is basically regarded as a sovereign State on that piece of land. That is the little I know.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Therefore, unless you choose to cut the relationship, you cannot go in their embassy and say, “You are keeping something here.” I think the lawyer knows. If I run there, you may have to have what is called an ‘extradition treaty’ for you to get me out of there even though it is on the Zambian soil. Zambians, hear me; this is the truth. So, for four years, they ignored. Suddenly, they want us to chase the Swedish. If that is part of their emblem, it is not ours.

I think I have said enough, Madam.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruption

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, during the previous regime, billions of kwachas of taxpayers’ money was embezzled.

Hon. UPND Member: It was stolen.

Mr Michelo: It was embezzled under the pretext of building the FTJ Chiluba and Ntumpa universities, which were not built.

The Eurobond, which was supposed to recapitalise our railway system, all that money, was embezzled by the previous regime of the Patriotic Front (PF).

Madam Speaker, those people always feel offended when they are called criminals or corrupt –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Michelo: Now, can you help me today so that children out there and the people who are watching ...

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam

Mr Kang’ombe: On a Point of order, Madam.

Hon. UPND Member: Ah, kimasholi!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Members! Order!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Order!

Please, resume your seats, including the hon. Member asking the question. You can stop the watch.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, this session is watched and listened to, in fact, countrywide. However, the way we are conducting business in this House is becoming very unruly. I guided the other day that can we, please, not disappoint the people of Zambia. We are hon. Members in this House. Whatever we say should be honourable. It should be a respected issue that the people are waiting to hear out there.

The concern that the hon. Member is raising came out in the media and people are waiting to get feedback from Her Honour the Vice-President. However, the hon. Member who is asking should, please, just go straight to the question instead of loading it because it is a straightforward matter which has attracted so much reaction.

Let us be mindful of the people who are listening to us. We are hon. Members elected by the people and the people we are representing are listening to us. So, with that guide, can we, please, be mindful of how we talk in this House and how we react as well.

Hon. Member, with that guide, can you, please, go straight to your question.

Interruption

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I just want Her Honour the Vice-President to educate my children and the next generation; if people have embezzled money, what term should we use to describe them? Are they corrupt criminals or they are saints? May she kindly help?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, as to the names, I think we have many names even in our vernacular. We have all sorts of names for people who embezzle. All sorts. In my language, we can have kabwalala, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: ... pompwe ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: ... and ngula. However, the issue of which name to use, I think, is up to the person speaking.

Madam Speaker, this House cannot determine who is a criminal. We do not determine that. The courts will finally determine who is a criminal. However, when people, truly, have embezzled, we are not saying, “you” or “that one.” Whoever embezzled will have the right title. Therefore, the investigative wings must be on top of things and give us the truth.

However, I have always said it here; investigations can be carried out on anybody. That does not mean one is already guilty.

Hon. Member: Tell them!

The Vice-President: However, for some, when they are investigated or taken for questioning –

Interjection

The Vice-President: So, they should remain without being questioned? How are we going to know the truth? Please, when questioned, give answers. When taken to court, go and explain. If you come out of court as an embezzler, you will be called another name, pompwe, musholi, thief and criminal until you prove yourself otherwise.

Madam Speaker, to the hon. Member, those who embezzled – I am not looking at anybody – he can call them criminals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, indeed, those who carry calendars even when we have them at Parliament must also be followed.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I want to acknowledge, since the Vice-President made reference to my being part of the security cluster of the State, the Southern African Development Community (SADC), the African Union (AU) and, indeed, the United Nations Security Council (UNSC), that we have had bilateral relations with different countries. That is why they send people who they call Defence Attachés (DA).

Madam Speaker, the concern of the States is that the United States African Command (AFRICOM), as it sounds, is the African Command Centre. So, this means that it is not just for the sovereign Republic of Zambia, but goes beyond the continent. This is why it is important that consultations are widely done with member States that will be affected by this development.

Madam Speaker, away from that, my question to Her Honour the Vice-President –

Mr Lufuma: You should face the Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: We have been at these things for a long time. So, you need to consult us.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, hon. Member, continue with your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my question to Her Honour the Vice-President is that since her Government has now started doing what people feared, with regard to the privatisation of parastatal companies, and now that our hon. Colleagues have decided to privatise the pride of the nation, the only petroleum refinery plant, the Indeni Oil Refinery in Ndola, putting more than 320 workers on redundancy and God knows how they will manage to regulate the prices of fuel using finished products –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are debating now.

Mr Kampyongo: What will happen? What is their plan now that they have privatised this refinery? The Indeni Oil Refinery has other parastatals that depend on it such as the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) Pipeline, which is 1,700 km from Tanzania. Indeni –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr Kampyongo: The question is: What is going to happen to these other parastatal companies, including the Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC) which supplies 100 MW of power to the Copperbelt? There is also the Ndola Energy Company Limited. We would like to know what will happen to those other companies and the workers who are working there.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, honestly, I think I will need a little bit of clarity here. I know the hon. Minister knows better and he could tell me, but there is no time for the full –

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Yes, it is not that I know everything in the country. I like to say that. However, the little I know is that the Indeni Oil Refinery was not operational for a long time under the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: That is true. Is this an argument, honestly?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can we give Her Honour the Vice-President time to respond –

The Vice-President: Why are we arguing over – sorry, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let her respond and give her chance so that the whole nation can listen to her answer.

Your Honour the Vice-President, you may continue.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am sorry for speaking while you were guiding the House.

I was just telling my hon. Colleagues that let us keep this House with the dignity that we need because we do not have to argue even when there is no argument. When I say something, I am not accusing anyone. It is a statement of fact. When I say the Indeni Oil Refinery has not been operational for years now, it is true. So, what pride is that, to start with?

Madam Speaker, I have admitted that I do not know everything. I do not have answers to all questions from our hon. Colleagues, but I know this bit that as a matter of fact, the refinery has not been operational and workers have been languishing there. This Government is surely going to pay the workers and, as at now, what I know is that we are putting the company on care and maintenance. If anything –

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

The Vice-President: Oh yes, because it is not operational. So, what do you want? It has been almost undeclared on care and maintenance. We are simply declaring it and then we will definitely come to this House to inform the hon. Member what we are going to do with the Indeni Oil Refinery. That is the little I know. If there is more information, it will be made available later on.

Mr Mundubile interjected.

The Vice-President: Yes, there is also the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) Pipeline.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving this opportunity to the good people of Petauke. They send their greetings to you and Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, in Petauke Central Constituency, there are schools in the radius of 20 km. According to our laws in Zambia, a girl or boy child is supposed to start Grade 1 at the age of five or six years. However, a five or six year old child is unable to cover a distance of 20 km to go to school. As a result, many of them have benefitted from adult education and have been encouraged by getting employed.

Interruptions

Mr. J. E. Banda: Iwe, as long as you are getting it.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is the question?

Mr. J. E. Banda: The question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What plans does the good New Dawn Government have for those teachers who were left out in the teacher recruitment who are above forty-five years old to promote adult education in our country, mother Zambia?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Petauke Central. I took a little long to comprehend what exactly the hon. Member wanted me to talk about. If I misinterpret, he can guide me. What I get is that people in his constituency do not have the opportunity to go to school at the right age because of differences. As a result, they go to school as adults. Therefore, they qualify to be teachers, for example, at the age of forty-seven years.

Mr J. E. Banda: Yes!

The Vice-President: I am just giving an example. I hope the way I understood it is correct. As a result of that situation, when they want to be employed, for example, by the Civil Service, they are left out because they are over aged. This is a very complicated scenario and I understand. However, this is currently the law. The Civil Service cannot employ a person on permanent and pensionable basis after the age of forty-five years.

So, if we really have so many people that would complete school at forty-five years and that is when they would seek employment, I think it would be this House that would look at that. Can we change the law on the pension and retirement of fifty-five years? From fifty-five, they will work for ten more years and they can opt out at sixty-five years. I think it is up to us. The hon. Member can bring a Motion and convince his hon. Colleagues here that we change that age because this is not in line with what is happening currently. Whether it is teachers or police officers, they have their own age of entry. I think in the defense forces it is eighteen, right?

Mr Lufuma: Eighteen to twenty-five.

The Vice-President: It is eighteen to twenty-five years. So, there are these issues that are guided by regulation and laws which we can deal with. It is unfortunate that there is nothing we can do for now.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, a good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, the intentions of the New Dawn Government on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) looks bright and good, especially on the third component, which is youth, women and community empowerment.

Madam, looking at the applications that my constituency has received in regard to grants, many are indicating that the applicants want to venture into issues like block-making and chicken rearing.

If Her Honour the Vice-President looks around the line of rail, she will agree with me that it has been dotted by a lot of foreign investors who are actually involved in block-making and, of course, chicken rearing to an extent where, we hear, in Lusaka, our investors are even selling dead chickens.

Madam Speaker, what is your Government, my Government and our Government doing to ensure that the local small and medium enterprises are protected and these businesses are left to indigenous Zambians so that they can have a market away from the investors who have come to do business such as block making and, of course, chicken rearing. What is it that the Government is putting in place; any policies to ensure that these businesses are left to the Zambian people?

The Vice President: Madam Speaker, my country, sometimes, can literally confuse you. I will share with you what I was listening to, not too long ago. I think the Department of Immigration rounded up some illegal immigrants and then there was a person, who is supposed to be educated and very understanding, who was on some television station where he was doing some analysis who said, “You are chasing investors. You are harassing investors.” Those who were rounded up are investors doing tu ntemba in the compound.

Madam Speaker, I am just giving this illustration to give the mixed feeling by comparing with the question that the hon. Member asked. For now, the economy is liberal and, therefore, any legal citizen has the right to participate.

Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Member raised the question: Can the Government think of any way out? If those maybe seen to be foreigners and yet they are Zambians, it becomes difficult to say that those are not supposed to trade. So, I think it is important, from the investment side, to look at that situation. Currently, it is competitive. Maybe it will make us even better businessmen to compete and crowd them out. After all, Zambians are more than those the hon. Member referred to. Encourage them to get there and get the best product that they can.

Madam Speaker, I think that is what I would say for now, maybe, with a little more consultation, we can find something that is on paper that I am not privy to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Madam Speaker, Chiefs are major stakeholders in the development of our country. Succession disputes are taking very long to resolve –

Madam Speaker: Order!

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

WATER SUPPLY IN KAMFINSA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to render a Ministerial Statement on the Water Supply Crisis in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, this statement is as a result of your directive, following a point of order on a matter of urgent public importance raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency, Mr Christopher Kang’ombe. In his submission, Hon. Kang’ombe informed the House that there was a water crisis in Kamfinsa Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the leadership of Mr Hakainde Hichilema, President of the Republic of Zambia and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, places a high premium on the universal access to clean and safe water due to the critical role water plays in sustaining human life as well as enhancing human and social development. The prioritisation of water and sanitation by the New Dawn Government is in line with the Vision 2030 and Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No. 6, which seeks to ensure universal access to clean and safe water and adequate sanitation services.

Madam Speaker, as a clear demonstration of the New Dawn Government’s commitment to the attainment of universal access to clean and safe water, the Government, through my ministry, the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, is implementing various water and sanitation infrastructure projects under the National Rural and Urban Supply and Sanitation Programmes.

Madam Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to update this august House and the nation at large that the reported water supply crisis in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency, specifically Kitwe South, has been as a result of the failure of two high lift pumps at the Nkana East Water Treatment Plant. The two pumps are used to transport treated water from the water treatment plant to the 17^th Avenue Distribution Centre. The third one is used to boost pressure. The 17^th Avenue Distribution Centre further distributes water to Ndeke, Wusakile and Mindolo distributions. As a result of the failure of the two high lift pumps at the Nkana East Water Treatment Plant, water supply to Ndeke, Wusakile, Chamboli, Nkana East and West, Mindolo, Chachacha and Twibukishe was affected.

Madam Speaker, the august House may wish to note that on 19^th May, 2022, one pump failed due to a broken shaft, and that resulted into damage to a bearing and mechanical seal. As plans to repair the pump were underway, a second pump also failed on Sunday evening 29^th May, 2022, due to a snapped shaft leaving only one pump working.

Madam Speaker, in order to address the situation, the company repaired the second pump, and it was commissioned on Tuesday, 31^st May, 2022, and is now operational.

Madam Speaker, the House may further wish to note that water supply has been restored to Ndeke, Wusakile, Chamboli, Mindolo, Chachacha, Twibukishe, Nkana East and West and part of the town centre.

Madam Speaker, following the repair of one pump, the general water supply hours have increased from an average of three hours to around eight hours.

Madam Speaker, plans are underway to install a new pump at the raw water intake within the third quarter of 2022. This will result in increased hours of supply to, approximately, twelve hours and beyond to affected communities. Plans are also underway to repair and commission the third pump within the course of June 2022. The pump will serve as a boost and standby measure. The installation of the third pump will enable reliable supply of water to customers around Kitwe.

Madam Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate my Government’s commitment to addressing challenges of water supply in Kitwe and across the length and breadth of this country by implementing various interventions ranging from short to medium and long-term measures.

Madam Speaker, allow me to highlight some of the measures that we have put in place to address the situation. In addressing the situation on the ground, in Kitwe, in particular, the Government is implementing short, medium and long-term measures as follows:

Short-term measures

     (a)    utilisation of the allocated institution’s support funds. This will see the assembly of the third pump, upon

            procurement of a rotating element; and

     (b)   other pumps will be supported by critical spares such as impellers in order to reduce on the down time of

            equipment in case of any break down.

Medium to long term measures

The Government, under the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Phase II, is implementing the following measures:

      (a)  procurement and installation of a raw water pump for Nkana East raw water intake. Funds and plans are

            in place to install and commission the pump within the third quarter of 2022, as earlier stated. This will

            further enhance water supply reliability to the southern parts of Kitwe;

     (b)   to support the above efforts, plans have been put in place to overhaul most of the dilapidated pipe

           networks in townships such as Ndeke, Wusakile, Chamboli and Luangwa. Once completed, this project

           will benefit around 850,000 people in terms of access to clean and safe water and adequate sanitation

           services; and

 

     (c)  the storage capacity for southern parts of Kitwe will be expanded by the construction of an additional

           storage tank at the Ndeke Distribution Centre. Nkana East Water Treatment Plant will be expanded to

          enable the plant not only to supply the existing areas, but also new residential and commercial areas.

Madam Speaker, allow me to, once again, assure the residents of Kitwe that the Government, through my ministry, remains steadfast in accelerating efforts aimed at ensuring the water supply situation is not only brought under control, but also improved upon within the shortest possible time.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to appeal to members of the public to guard water and sanitation infrastructure jealously as it is being constructed at a huge cost. I also wish to urge members of the public not to waste water, but to conserve and utilise it sustainably in order to ensure that the current water needs are met without compromising the water needs of future generations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker,

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, the people of Kitwe, and Kamfinsa in particular, are struggling. As we know, water is life. The issue of bad water situation in our country is not only in Kamfinsa, in Kitwe. Now that Kamfinsa needs urgent attention to the water supply situation, when is the Government going to release the money? This is an urgent issue. When is the Government going to release the money so that the people of Kamfinsa can have a clean water supply?

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am sorry to rise during this important issue. It is an administrative arrangement that during the Vice-President’s Question Time, points of order are not allowed. However, immediately she finishes, one can raise a point of order. I am rising in relation to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the Government, at the beginning of the year, sets the economic and fiscal direction for the year in the National Budget. It is expected that all Government policies and pronouncements should hinge on the National Budget for the purpose of planning and budgeting.

Madam Speaker, during the Vice-President’s Question Time, when Her Honour the Vice-President was responding to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembezhi in relation to agriculture, she said that the Government will continue with the Direct Input Support (DIS) Programme this year, against the Budget pronouncement by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Plannin delivered to this august House on 29^th October, 2021.

I want to quote the statement of the hon. Minister, Madam Speaker, because, consistency in policy pronouncement gives predictability for the private sector and those in business, to plan.

Madam Speaker, on page 12, on agriculture, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning stated:

“Madam, the sector, however, has for a long time faced a number of structural and other impediments to the realisation of its full potential. These include, low production and productivity, limited market access, underdeveloped value chains and dependence on rain-fed agriculture ...

“... Madam, the current Farmer Input Support Programme, delivered through a combination of the Direct Input Support (DIS) and Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) system, has a number of challenges. The DIS mode of delivering inputs is unsustainable to the Treasury with expenditures increasing significantly over the years and with limited change in the number of beneficiaries and input package. It is also characterised by serious challenges in delivery as beneficiaries have received fewer inputs than what they have paid for ...

... Madam Speaker, there is, therefore, need to comprehensively address these challenges. To this effect, Government will implement a new comprehensive agriculture support programme commencing in the 2022/2023 season. This programme will be cost effective, better targeted and equitable across beneficiaries.”

Madam Speaker, this direction was given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I believe this is the New Dawn Administration policy direction on agriculture for the 2022/2023 farming season. I listened to my elder sister, Her Honour the Vice-President, contradict this position. She said that the Government will continue to support farmers this year through the DIS Programme. It took me off balance. What is the correct Government position, Madam Speaker? Is it what has been stated today by Her Honour the Vice-President or what is in the National Budget Speech?

I seek your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will reserve my ruling in order for me to study the matter. I will come back to this House to make a ruling on another day.

May the hon. Member, please, lay the documents on the Table.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, it is a document of Parliament; it is the Budget Speech I quoted.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have to lay it on the Table, unfortunately.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela laid the document on the Table.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation will respond to the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Kabushi.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, it must be appreciated that my ministerial statement was based on the break down which occurred at our water supply plant in Kitwe. Two pumps failed, on 19^th May and on 29^th May, 2022. That is what I was responding to. However, this did not imply that the people of Kamfinsa literally had no water being supplied to them. There was a fault on the pumps which led to the suspension of supply.

Madam Speaker, as regards when the Government will release money, actually, for the first time, the Government is releasing money timely to the ministry. The ministry has also released money to utility companies. So, most works are being done.

Madam Speaker, again, just to emphasise; we had a breakdown at the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company on 19^th and 29^th May, 2022, which led to a critical shortage of water that brought about the matter of urgent public importance that was raised and which I responded to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation for that elaborate ministerial statement about Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company in Kitwe. I thank him because in his ministerial statement, he mentioned that the Government is looking into the issue of water across the country to make sure that all towns have adequate water and do not experience what Kitwe experienced.

Madam Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister that we have a serious situation in Kabwe Central Constituency and the district at large where the Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company is depending on one pump. This is an old pump whose spare parts are being salvaged from other old pumps. At the current market, you cannot find spare parts for this pump if you looked for them.

Has the hon. Minister prioritised towns such as this one so that they do not experience what Kitwe and Water Supply and Sanitation Company experienced?

Mr Mposha: Yes, Madam Speaker. We have prioritised funding to water infrastructure projects. It must be noted that we have had low investment levels in the water sector. However, we are now happy that all our utility companies are being funded to ensure that this old water infrastructure is improved. As I said earlier, money is being released. However, it will take time because of the past low investments in the water sector, though we look forward to revamping the water infrastructure network across the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker called upon Mr B. Mpundu.

Mr B. Mpundu was inaudible.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, apologies to you. The Information Communication Technology (ICT) officers failed to unmute me.

Madam Speaker, I am at pains to ask him this question because he and I have been conversing over the issue of water in Kitwe. At some point, he promised that he would get to Kitwe and, perhaps, address the public over this challenge. However, I think that for the sake of the public that may be listening to this conversation today, and just so that whatever we relay back to them does not seem to be but stories, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to, perhaps, give a concrete position from the ministerial perspective, as the failure of the pumps is just a small part of the bigger problem that affects the people of Kitwe in terms of water supply. The solution seems to lie in the water project that was started some time back, but which stalled because of challenges of finances.

Madam Speaker, I think that for the betterment of the public in Kitwe that may be listening to this conversation, is the hon. Minister able to give a concrete position at this stage as to when that project that was stalled would resume so that, at least, they can speculate or wait for a particular position or timeframe in which this particular issue will be addressed?

Madam Speaker, the failures in Kamfinsa are basically just recent. The bigger problem is in Buchi and Mindolo townships, which have had no water and have had bigger challenges for a very long time.

Madam Speaker, my question is: Do we have a specific timeframe that people can look forward to as when we are going to have sustained supply of water in the entire city of Kitwe?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I did indicate in my ministerial statement under the long term measures that under the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company, we have a project called the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Phase II. This project is at a cost of US$200 million. It is true that this is the project the hon. Member of Parliament referred to as the one which stalled due to a lack of funds.

Madam Speaker, there are a number of projects which we have prioritised. Some of them, we are just re-scoping and then we will mobilise resources. Once we are financed, these projects should resume.

Madam Speaker, I want to assure the hon. Member of Parliament and the people of Nkana, and Kitwe in general, that once resources are mobilised, the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project Phase II is one of our priority projects. Once we mobilise resources, we would want this project to restart. When this project is completed, we can improve water supply for the people of Kitwe.

So, the assurance I make to the hon. Member of Parliament is that as soon as we mobilise resources, this project is top on the priority list of my ministry. Indeed, once this project is finalised and commissioned, it will improve the water supply and sanitation situation for the people of Kitwe.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, one more time, we seem to be getting open ended answers from hon. Members on the right hand side of the House. It is the usual response of whenever funds are available. My concern, mainly, is what time lines we give ourselves. Do we leave it to chance as whenever funds will be available or we have a timeframe in which we can carry out some of these exercises? The water situation in Nkana is just one amongst others which has been exposed right now in this august House. There are many other areas where we have water crises. How much assurance are we getting from the hon. Minister that this problem will be dealt with in record time other than giving us open ended answers?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, had resources been available, this project would not have stalled in the first place. This is a project we took over. We found, other than the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company project, many projects that stalled due to a lack of funds, which also resulted in the Government then defaulting. So, there are many projects. For us, looking at the significance of these projects, we have said that we re-scope some of them so that the urgent issues can be financed and the projects take off.

Madam Speaker, it is not really the desire of this Government to be giving, like the hon. Member indicated, ‘open ended’ answers. These projects require money; huge sums of money. The project in question requires about US$200 million. So, I would have loved that this project was restarted like yesterday, but obviously, it requires money. So, as soon as we get money in place, this project will take off. We would want it to take off as soon as possible. It is one of our priority projects.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.  

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving Chienge an opportunity. I want to also thank you for the way you have handled matters. Indeed, well done, Madam Speaker, and thank you so much.

Madam Speaker, we know water is life, and what has been happening in Kitwe, on the Copperbelt, and Kamfinsa in particular, is not something that should be treated with kid gloves.

Madam Speaker, many are times these technocrats give reports that are totally the opposite of what is on the ground. I urge the hon. Minister to, maybe, take time to go and assess the situation as only then will he understand the urgency of this matter.

Madam Speaker, the spare part can be awaited for if there is also an emergency kind of reaction. I just want to find out whether the hon. Minister will take that step so that he knows exactly what those people are going through. We cannot wait that long; water is life.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, again, to emphasise; water supply has been restored in Kitwe. As regards whether I will be making a trip on a fact finding mission, yes, Madam Speaker. In fact, I must confirm here that I am in receipt of a letter from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa. We have been actually conversing. I have also been talking with the hon. Member for Nkana.

Madam Speaker, with the letter from the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, I want to say that plans are underway, in the next few weeks, for me to visit. I just need to check with my hon. Colleagues, the hon. Members for Nkana and Kamfinsa constituencies, in terms of how their diaries are so that the three of us can get on the ground to appreciate in-depth the challenges that are being brought to the fore. So, indeed, I will be headed to Kitwe to visit this area and appreciate the challenges more.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last three questions from hon. Members for Luena Constituency, Chimwemwe Constituency and Kamfinsa Constituency. 

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, indeed, the water sector suffered a lot of underfunding in the last several years. Taking advantage of the statement the hon. Minister has just delivered, may I ask him to indicate to the people of Luena, because he made reference to all the water utility companies in the country, who also suffered serious water shortages in the last one month due to dilapidated and obsolete equipment, whether his ministry has addressed the matter and assured them of the ongoing investments that will deal with the situation forever, in the near future.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, yes, I confirm that we had a similar situation in the Western Province where we had a break down a few weeks ago and a pump was procured. Supply, as I speak, has been restored. However, I must agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena that, firstly, the water network in most of our utility companies is quite old and requires a lot of money to revamp it and this is what we are working on. I want to take advantage of that to assure the people of the Western Province that we would want to complete the projects that have been ongoing in the province so that, once commissioned, we can see an improvement in terms of the supply of water and adequate sanitation services.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, I understand that the hon. Minister says that the water sanitation project shall be started soon. When that will be, I do not know. However, we have an emergency situation in Chimwemwe. We have seriously leaking pipes that have actually stopped three quarters of houses in Chimwemwe, Kamatipa and Twatasha wards from receiving water.

Madam Speaker, not only are they not receiving water, but they are receiving contaminated water, the few that are, because these pipes are really broken and lead to contamination by foreign materials.

Madam Speaker, even the water that we receive in Chimwemwe, we are only given once a day, which only runs for an hour. This is between 0800 and 0900 hours. This is the time when, mostly, our mothers are out of their houses going to do their chores either at the market or at work.

Madam Speaker, I think this is really an emergency and, maybe, the hon. Minister should address it or engage the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation to mend the pipes. We cannot wait for the sanitation programme because we do not know when it shall start.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, you can respond if you got the question clearly.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, although the question was not very clear, let me just say that I would want to add Chimwemwe to the trip we are planning to go and visit the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation situation in Kitwe. So, we will be able to discuss with the hon. Member for Chimwemwe so that we can also bring him in. We can check how his schedule is and then we can have three hon. Members come on the ground with us so that we appreciate the challenges together.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me, first of all, to thank you most sincerely for directing the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation to issue a ministerial statement on this huge challenge that we are facing in Kitwe.

Madam Speaker, I have taken note of the response from the hon. Minister in his statement and my first observation, which will lead me to the question, is that the statement downplays the problem that we have in Kitwe. It downplays the problem that we have in Kitwe partly because the statement was prepared by officers from Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company who, I believe, are insulating themselves from the bigger problem that we have in Kitwe.

Madam Speaker, we have not restored eight hours supply of water to Kamfinsa Constituency. This is why it will be important that the hon. Minister travels to Kitwe urgently to have the correct facts on the huge challenge we face currently, in terms of the water crisis.

Madam Speaker, the eight hours supply of water, which was referred to, I want to repeat, has not yet been restored.

Madam Speaker, secondly, and this leads to me to the last question, with your discretion; the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project (NWSSP) Phase II, which the hon. Minister has ably referred to, is it budgeted for this year, in 2023 or in 2024? The people who are watching this interaction this morning would want to know. When are we putting resources into this project? The project had commenced and a percentage of the works were done and I am sure that from the reports that the hon. Minister received, the works had actually commenced. Basically, what is required is to refinance the project and get it committed. So, I want to find out from the hon. Minister in charge when we are financing the Phase II project? Is it in this year’s Budget, next year’s Budget or the 2024 Budget? Should we tell our people in Kamfinsa and other parts of Kitwe that the hon. Minister did not give us any answer?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, in terms of his dispute on the eight hours supply, I want to say that from the time we had that breakdown, I had been engaging the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company. My ministry and myself in particular have been speaking to the Board Chairperson who also has been in touch with the people on the ground and we were getting reports on daily basis in terms of the progress that was being made up to the point that we restored supply. So, since the hon. Member of Parliament is here in Lusaka and, of course, he is in touch with the people, he is also relying on people who are briefing him on the ground. I am equally being briefed by the people on the ground, but I think what is important is that him and myself have agreed, together with the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana, and now Chimwemwe, who we are bringing in, to go on the ground to appreciate the facts there. For now, the position is that water supply has been restored. However, if there is information suggesting otherwise, we can investigate that further and see what can be done about it.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the water works, as I said, most of these projects we are talking about, including the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project Phase II, are projects that had stalled. As I said, we have taken an approach where we need to re-scope and take off certain elements that are not very urgent and leave those that are very urgent, which will ensure that the project can quickly be finished and we start supplying water. The other ones, the lesser urgent components of the projects can be done later. So, with that said, we should be able to finance certain components of these projects this year as soon as we mobilise resources.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is a female hon. Member who has persisted. We will give her a chance, being female.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, before I ask my question to the hon. Minister, I want to recognise the National Assembly of Zambia (NAZ). As I came in yesterday, I realised that we now have a sign language interpreter arising from the point of order that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central. So, it is a job well done to NAZ for bringing a sign language interpreter to the House.

Madam Speaker, now, to the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, I think as Mwandi, we had also brought our issue to his attention earlier last year. So, we are taking advantage of this segment because he spoke about other utility companies.

Madam Speaker, unlike Kamfinsa or Nkana, Mwandi is a Constituency that sits where there is a river. I am sad to report that as I speak right now, children at the Ilute Yeta Boarding Secondary School are drinking saline water. With the water that the children are drinking in Mwandi, we are preparing them to become hypertension patients in less than fifteen years, which is a very sad situation.

Madam Speaker, I had done a research that showed exactly how many saline boreholes we have in Mwandi, but that has not been taken care of up to now. What plans does the hon. Minister have for Mwandi Constituency, which sits on the Zambezi River? We overlook the Lyambai and yet we have no water in Mwandi, a situation that is very saddening.

As the hon. Minister speaks about visiting Nkana, I had written earlier. We are also hoping to see him in Mwandi. He should not get scared of the bad roads that are there. We are hoping to see him also in those rural constituencies where – we are not talking about restoration – there is no water at all.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member!

You were almost debating your question.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I confirm that, indeed, we have been talking with my sister for some time about the situation in Mwandi. As I said, we have projects in the Western Province which are ongoing and we are hoping that once they are completed, they will assist us to improve the water situation. What I need to check is to what extent the projects in the Western Province touch, in particular, on Mwandi Constituency.

Madam Speaker, as regards the visit to Mwandi, and the Western Province in general, the hon. Member will be able to see me there. I am not scared of the bad roads. I think that I appreciate the challenges that we are facing in terms of water and sanitation. It is, therefore, important for us to be out there to see for ourselves so that when we are talking to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we give him the picture and the urgency on the ground. So, I will be visiting Mwandi pretty soon. I think let us also talk some more.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

INCLUSION OF SCHOOLS IN SIOMA DISTRICT ON THE ESTABLISHMENT REGISTER

336. Mr Anakoka (Luena) (on behalf of Mr Mandandi (Sioma)) asked the Minister of Education:

      (a)   when the following Schools in Sioma District will be included on the Establishment Register:

            (i)   the 34 community schools which were upgraded to Government schools;

            (ii)  Kalongola Secondary School;

           (iii)  Mulele Secondary School; and

           (iv)  Mutomena Secondary School; and

      (b)   what the cause of the delay in including the schools on the Register is.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, I inform the House that Kalongola, Mulele and Mutomena primary schools and thirty-four community schools were upgraded to secondary and primary schools, respectively. These schools were granted approved establishment for secondary and primary schools by Management Development Division (MDD). However, the schools are still appearing in the 2020 Establishment Register as primary schools. They will only be included on the Establishment Register as secondary and primary schools, respectively, once Treasury authority to fill up positions for the secondary and primary structures is granted; and the cause of the delay is the process and the resources to actualise the Establishment Register.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response and assurance that the schools in Mutomena, Mulele, Kalongola and other areas in Sioma Constituency will be, accordingly, registered in the Government register.

Madam Speaker, may I find out whether, alongside this registration of the schools, will also be granted Treasury authority in order for them to be able to expend their budget without a lot of inconveniences as it sometimes happens in schools that get registered, but do not have the necessary Treasury authority?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, as I said, the delay was due to the lack of Treasury authority. So, when it is granted, they will be in the Establishment Register.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Chibuye (Mkushi North): Madam Speaker, I want to commend you, to start with, for the manner in which you preside over the House. I think you deserve commendation.

UPGRADING OF MASANSA POLICE POST IN MKUSHI DISTRICT TO A POLICE STATION

337. Mr C. Chibuye asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

         (a)     whether the Government has any plans to upgrade Masansa Police Post in Mkushi District to a

                  police station; and

         (b)     if so, when the plans will be implemented.

Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to upgrade Masansa Police Post into a police station. To upgrade a police post into a police station, the following factors are considered:

        (a)      increase in population size;

        (b)      economic activity in the area;

        (c)      size of the catchment area; and

        (d)       distance from the main police station.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, we have no immediate plans.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, may I bring to the attention of the hon. Minister that the area in question is actually densely populated. He says one of the factors his ministry considers to upgrade police posts to police stations is the population size. Masansa is highly populated, as we speak. Even economic activities are there and it takes time to visit some of these places we are stating, particularly, Masansa. It is heavily populated and I see no reason why the ministry should not upgrade its police post as the higher the population the higher the rate of crime.

Madam Speaker, to this effect, may I request the hon. Minister to reconsider his position not to upgrade Masansa.

Now, the question could be: in the interim, what is the hon. Minister doing? Is he willing to beef up the staff levels or, indeed, the officers at the existing police station so that they can combat the crime that is happening in the area?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, for the benefit of my colleague, which may be used for the future, I want to inform him of the considerations we take in terms of our population.

Madam Speaker, for a police post, we consider establishing one if the population is not more than 22,000 people living in the catchment area. A Grade C police station is between 22,000 and 52,000 people; Grade B should have above 40,000, but not more than 52,000; and the population for a Grade A police station is a population of above 52,000.

Madam Speaker, the establishment for a police post is not more than thirty-six police officers. The establishment for a Grade C police station is, at least, thirty-six police officers; Grade B is, at least, eighty-nine police officers; and Grade A is, at least, 116 police officers.

Madam Speaker, having heard the issues that have been raised by my colleague, we will reconsider that position when we have concrete information after the census has been done. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will be undertaking a national census very soon. Once the results are out, we will be able to assess whether there will be any need to upgrade this particular police post.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has given the parameters that are used to consider what sort of police facility is to be established in an area. Now, as we wait for the census to be conducted so that we can have an informed position, has he bothered to check whether that establishment he has spoken to, in terms of how many numbers of police officers are supposed to be deployed at this Masansa Police Post, is filled up? If it is not, would he consider ensuring that the establishment is filled in order for the people of Masansa to be policed properly whilst we are waiting for the statistics from the census?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Colleague for that question and guidance. We will do a verification exercise, and if there will be any need and the establishment is not filled, we will definitely deploy officers to Masansa.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers that he is giving. I know my hon. Colleague, Hon. Kampyongo, has just spoken about statistics. I just want to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister that we, hon. Members of Parliament, are the ones who are normally able to tell the number or the population of an area because we traverse these areas during campaigns or, indeed, the times that we interact with our people in the constituencies.

Madam Speaker, I declare interest; I am married from that side. I just want to ask the hon. Minister: Can he not take information from his hon. Colleague, the area hon. Member of Parliament for Mkushi North that the place is in dire need of an upgrading of the police post? It is another place which is like a trading area. That is where there is the concentration of most of the population of Mkushi. There are two places which are highly populated; the central business district and Masansa. Can the hon. Minister not base his response on the information the hon. Member has given so that the people of that area are helped? Crime does not wait. This is a place where there are a lot of commercial activities. Could the hon. Minister take what his hon. Colleague as given him while we wait for that census?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the Government is not supposed to act on opinions. We, as the Government, are supposed to act on informed considerations. That is why, every after ten years, we conduct a census of the population in a certain locality. I did mention that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will be conducting a census, I think, in August. Sometime this year, it will be conducting a census and once the census results are out, we will be able to make an informed consideration of the issues that have been raised. It may not only be Masansa, but other areas that would require upgrading of police posts in the country. So, we will not be able to do that now, but will wait for the information from the census.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, to follow up on the hon. Minister’s response that the Government does not act on uninformed position, I feel disappointed if he says that when the area hon. Member of Parliament gives information, it is not an informed position.

Madam Speaker, he should reconsider if, indeed, he really cares for the people of Masansa and Mkushi North in particular. He should take stock using his line of command and find out specifically how much economic activity is happening in Masansa and the levels of population there. If he may take stock of such information, through his line of command, we will really appreciate.

Madam Speaker, the question, therefore, would be: Could the hon. Minister state categorically whether he is going to beef-up the staffing levels and the officers at this police station, and when this will happen?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I did indicate, arising from the question that was posed by the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, Hon. Kampyongo, that we shall verify the situation on the ground. If we find that certain parameters have been met, we shall beef-up police presence in that particular area.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNANCE, HOUSING AND CHIEFS’ AFFAIRS

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 31st May, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Speaker, I wish to second the Motion.

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, as provided for in the Standing Orders, the Committee considered one topical issue, namely the maintenance of township roads in Zambia. 

Madam Speaker, the objectives of the Committee’s study were to, among other things, appreciate the adequacy of the legal framework governing the maintenance of township roads and associated road infrastructure in Zambia; understand the funding gaps in the maintenance of township roads and township road infrastructure; and to appreciate the challenges faced by local authorities in maintaining township roads.

Madam Speaker, allow me to briefly comment on some of the findings made by the Committee during its interaction with various stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the legal framework governing the maintenance of township roads in Zambia, the Committee notes serious overlaps among three laws, namely the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002, the National Road Fund Agency Act No. 13 of 2002 and the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016.

Whereas the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 mandates local authorities to maintain township roads and all road infrastructure, the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002 and the National Road Fund Agency Act No. 13 of 2002 also mandate the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) to maintain all roads, streets, avenues and foot walks, among others.

In view of this, Madam Speaker, the Committee recommends that these pieces of legislation should be amended and harmonised to exclusively mandate local authorities to be responsible for toll fee collections and to subsequently undertake the maintenance of the earlier stated road infrastructure within their areas of operation.

Madam Speaker, allow me to bring to the attention of this House one of the challenges which was observed in almost all councils visited by the Committee. The Committee observes that almost all councils have inadequate road maintenance machinery. This has contributed to the continued deterioration of township roads as outsourcing of road maintenance equipment is costly and unsustainable for most councils. It is also observed that due to a lack of road maintenance equipment, most council road engineers are idle as they have no road maintenance equipment or machinery to work with.

In this regard, the Committee urges the Executive to provide minimal road maintenance equipment to all local authorities to avoid the current situation where engineers remain idle due to a lack of machinery. The Committee further urges the Executive to make budgetary provision for minimum road maintenance equipment in a consistent, but phased manner.

Madam Speaker, in addition to the provision of minimum road maintenance equipment by the Central Government, I also wish, on behalf of the Committee, to agree with stakeholders on the proposal to utilise part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for road maintenance and, therefore, recommend that in view of the increased CDF, a prescribed portion from it be used annually to maintain township roads and to procure road maintenance equipment.

As I end, Madam Speaker, allow me to place on record the gratitude of the Committee to all the stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before us. We also wish to thank you, Madam Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support services accorded to us throughout our deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mwene: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving an opportunity to the people of Mangango to second this Motion that has just been brought on the Floor of this House by the Chairperson, Hon. Lusambo, from the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs.

Madam Speaker, from the reports that were collected, I just wish to highlight a few matters because it is known that the report is in the hands of hon. Members of Parliament. As we were touring the country, visiting various stakeholders, we discovered a lot of issues as regards the maintenance of township roads. We discovered that the maintenance of township roads is a very important matter because it changes the face of every town. However, the funds that are used to maintain township roads come from the Road Development Agency (RDA) and given to the local authorities.

Madam Speaker, it was discovered that the RDA does not have fixed figures or amounts of money to give to every council to maintain township roads. As a Committee, we, therefore, recommend that may the Government or the RDA give certain amounts of money in fixed figures for every council to be able to work on township roads.

Apart from that, Madam Speaker, it was also discovered that the money was being given to these councils not at a fixed time. It was just at any time that the RDA would decide to give to a particular council and, depending on the bargaining power of that particular council.

Madam Speaker, I wish to report to the House that as we went around the country on our local tours, we discovered something that was quite disturbing in Kalulushi. The Kalulushi Council procured a grader at K2.6 million and that grader just worked twice and broke down. Meanwhile, the grader is still in its warranty period. As such, we would like to request all councils and other authorities, the Government or local government, to help the Kalulushi Council have a proper grader replaced by the supplier because that grader that was procured was not the correct one that was brought to the council. Unfortunately, the supplier managed to convince the council to just use the same grader that was given, but it disappointed the Kalulushi Council, the Government of Zambia and everyone else.

Madam Speaker, this Committee discovered that there were a lot of bottlenecks as regards the procurement process in the maintenance of township roads. As a Committee, we request that the Government looks into loosening the bottlenecks in the procurement process as regards the maintenance of township roads because these bottlenecks cause delay in working on them. As such, most township road works stall because of either inadequate funding or the same bottlenecks that may be in the procurement process.

Madam Speaker, not only that, but because of these bottlenecks, most of the maintenance of township roads eventually become expensive due to stalling and waiting for the next funding or process of procuring materials and equipment to work on them. As a Committee, we recommend that the bottlenecks be removed or lessened.

Madam Speaker, we also found other challenges as regards the technocrats and engineers in various councils that are working on roads. Some councils, we discovered, had no engineer at all while others had four or even fourteen. So, looking at the disparities in the number of technocrats in these councils, we feel, as a Committee, that that is also having an effect on the maintenance of township roads.

Madam Speaker, the Committee, therefore, recommends that the local authorities look into balancing the technocrats, engineers to be specific, in all councils so that the maintenance of all township roads in the country is enhanced.

Madam Speaker, with these few issues I have highlighted to you, I wish to thank you for according the Committee on Local Governance Housing and Chiefs Affairs this opportunity to present its report before this House, and as such, I beg to second.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for granting me this opportunity to support the adoption of this report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs.

Madam Speaker, I want to appreciate your members of this Committee for the manner in which they conducted their work, resulting in very clear observations and recommendations. Let me also thank my hon. Brother, Hon. Lusambo, for moving this adoption. I also thank my hon. Colleague, Member of Parliament for Mangango for his words of seconding this Motion.

Madam Speaker, when I read the recommendation of your Committee, it gives me a clear understanding that the New Dawn Government, the United Party for National Development (UPND), has a lot of work. As you can see, your Committee clearly states and observes serious overlaps among three laws. Your Committee went further to name the laws as the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002, the National Road Fund Agency Act No.13 of 2002 and the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No.2 of 2016. This means that the Executive Government has a lot of work in terms of harmonising these laws.

Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, as the Zambian population, we were promised by the UPND Government that this legal environment was going to be sanitised and that we would have a better legal environment. The only way, as I can see, that we can achieve this is by amending these pieces of legislation which are not harmonised in order for them to speak to each other properly. Unfortunately, when you look at the legislative meeting that just passed, very few Bills came to this House for enactment. I can imagine that the next legislative meeting will be the same.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to advise the UPND Government; for my hon. Colleagues in the UPND to achieve a good legal environment, they should begin to bring amendments to this House. As you know, it is not the duty of the National Assembly to make laws; it is the duty of the Executive Government to make laws. Now, instead of making laws, they are busy thinking in terms of how to finish off the Patriotic Front (PF).

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: They are busy plotting in terms of how the PF will be completely obliterated.

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

The statements that you have just said are not included in the report. Can we, please, just stick to the report? If you bring other things like finishing off the Patriotic Front (PF), which are not at all in the report, then we will go astray and the whole House will be in another state, an unruly state. People are actually listening; this is a very important report. So, let us not load it with political issues. Let us just focus on the report. With that guide, you can go ahead.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am most grateful for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, let me advise the New Dawn Government to focus on making laws so that they bring them here for us to enact. Otherwise, the next legislative meeting will be like the previous one, with few Bills. The reason I think the UPND Government is failing to bring Bills to this House is because its priority is not sitting on these important issues; instead it is sitting on what the PF did in the past. This is why you always hear people always making reference to the PF. I am a member of the PF and I think I have an even bigger right to make reference to it.

Madam Speaker, instead of transporting political competitors to the UPND to various locations when there is an issue to do with what it perceives as an offence, it is better it focuses that money on law development. That money should be focused on law amendments so that our laws can actually become better and begin to speak to each other.

Madam Speaker, the UPND has a lot of work, and it can count on us. Particularly for me, I offer myself. It can count on me. I have brought Bills to this House which have gone through. I know the process. The process will not begin by this debate. It will begin by its determination of the fact that it wants laws to be amended; it wants new laws to be promulgated. However, as I can see, laws are not being promulgated, it is just arrests. When you look at those arrests, it is just PF Members or those people who were returning to the PF. The PF cannot be finished off. It belongs to the people of Zambia, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, it belongs to the people of Zambia, and if our hon. Colleagues on your right think that by arresting its leaders, former leaders, and those who served the PF so well, ...

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker:

Mr Kafwaya: ... there will be a point when the PF actually finishes, they are daydreaming. This is just friendly advice.

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: It is friendly advice, Madam Speaker, very friendly advice.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order in relation to the speaker, the hon. Member who is currently on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, the point of order is in relation to the ruling that you already made on the direction the debate of the hon. Member is taking.

Madam Speaker, your guidance was very clear that the hon. Member must steer clear of the waters that he continues to want to swim in. You already gave a directive that the hon. Member should focus his debate on the report at hand, but it seems that he has decided not to heed the guidance by the presiding officer.

Is he in order to do so?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Did you mention the Standing Order that has been breached?

Mr Haimbe: Yes, Madam Speaker, I did mention the Standing Order. Perhaps, my colleagues did not hear me. I will repeat that it is pursuant to Standing Order 202, I believe.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Laughter

The First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we should not waste time by bringing in other issues. As I mentioned, this is a very important report for the people of Zambia. So, can we respect the people of Zambia by just focusing on this report? They are busy listening out there. They want to hear the content of this because the whole of Zambia is covered by township and feeder roads. So, can we concentrate on this good report?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me be more specific. The Ministry of Justice is the ministry in the republic which is responsible for making laws. This is why my hon. Colleague who rose on a point of order needed to listen to me. As a matter of fact, that ministry should stop speaking on behalf of the President. Instead of making laws, it is busy saying, “No, he did not meet Milingo. No, they met Milingo.” It should stop and focus on creating laws so that these can come to this House and we can take the liberty to enact them to make our legal environment better. This country needs to be improved and we have a part to play; which is to advise the Government, and the Government needs to listen.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me an opportunity to make a few comments on the Motion to adopt your report ably moved by Hon. Lusambo and seconded the hon. Member of Parliament for Mangango.

Madam Speaker, as I agree with the recommendations of your report regarding the issue of harmonising pieces of legislation and the Constitution, I want to remind this august House that we need to be structured when we approach these matters. If you recall my debate when there was a lot of excitement regarding the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) increment, I stood here and stated that if we did not capacitate local authorities to absorb this fund, it was going to pose a lot of challenges, which we are experiencing now. Those who did not understand thought that I was just lamenting, but I was speaking from experience.

Madam Speaker, what we need to do, in the first place, is to agree, before we even talk about the pieces of legislation, on how the New Dawn Government intends to implement the Decentralisation Policy. This policy is holistic and speaks to all these matters that we are dealing with. If we do not agree, we will amend the laws, but still have challenges such as we are experiencing in the disbursement of the CDF. All hon. Members of Parliament here are agonising on how to proceed because, even after the guidelines were formulated, we are going back and forth; regulation course after course, but in the meantime, the money is stuck. So, when we say, let us be structured, we need to listen to each other.

Madam Speaker, the most important thing we need to agree on is for the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to come and give us a roadmap on how he intends to implement the Decentralisation Policy. It is all about devolving the functions of the Government to the lowest level and we already we have structures. All we need is to agree on the matching resources.

Madam Speaker, we are not going to achieve this using a piecemeal approach. The CDF cannot be used as a panacea to implement the Decentralisation Policy. This is why everyone at the district level is now looking to the CDF. This is so because these other departments are not receiving resources for them to function and that paralyses the Government. I do not even know how these provincial hon. Ministers are functioning with their District Commissioners (DCs)

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: You can pretend here, but we are telling you that we know governance matters.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please concentrate on the Motion.

Mr Kampyongo: It is indiscipline from hon. Ministers who are making running commentaries.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes! Can we avoid interjections or let us not debate while we are seated.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, these are the critical issues that we need to start with. I heard your report recommending that the CDF be used to procure earth moving equipment to maintain our township roads. That has been tried and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is here to attest to that. As we speak now, there are councils in the Southern Province that have not received the equipment after paying for it ten years ago when we agreed collectively to try and use the CDF to buy some equipment. 

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: You know where you sent it. So, when we are talking about these matters, we know the challenges. So, we are saying that let us deal with the Decentralisation Policy. Even the money we send to the councils through the Equalisation Fund might not be helpful. To maintain just ten kilometres –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Learn to listen. Very soon, you will be answerable to the people.

Madam Speaker, to just maintain 10 km of gravel road is not cheap, at all. It can gobble the whole CDF allocation. So, before you even talk about the equipment, and if you want to use the CDF to buy equipment, you can only talk about second hand equipment. This is not sustainable. We have bought equipment and second hand equipment will just be second hand. It is not sustainable. So, let us be serious with what we intend to.

Madam Speaker, the only solution for the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is to come to this august House and share how he is going to implement the Decentralisation Policy. Then we can go into the legal framework because the two are inseparable. If we go on one route, we will not achieve anything.

So, my humble advice to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is to further engage the hon. Minister of Justice because there is a provision in the Constitution which mandates local authorities to be in charge of maintaining roads which was couched in line with the Decentralisation Policy. That is how the mandate was given to the local authorities. What is lacking is resources and human capital in local authorities to execute this mandate.

Madam Speaker, the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) which, obviously, receives funds also needs to be aligned with how this money is supposed to be shared down to the grassroots. Otherwise, we are going to be going round in circles and not achieve the intended goal.

Madam Speaker, I have also seen the suggestion that we should amend the Constitution to increase the number chiefs in local authorities. Again, we need to be clear; if the current status quo is not satisfactory, what are the challenges? I have not seen those challenges being highlighted by the report. So, how, then, do you rush to say that we amend the Constitution? Amending the Constitution must not be taken lightly.

Madam Speaker, we heard the hon. Minister of Justice talking about low-hanging fruits. There are no such things as low-hanging fruits when it comes to amending the supreme document of the land, the Constitution. We need to take a holistic approach and make sure that we deal with this document once and for all. We cannot be coming back and forth such that when a report comes, we say, let us amend one section of the Constitution and then we start engaging. It will never work. What is important is for us to galvanise what is required and we also get the chance to look at the contents of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019. He should not shy away because if he is thinking that he can throw it away and come here, he will have himself to blame.

Madam Speaker, I thought I could make those very few comments.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Mbabala an opportunity contribute to debate on the Motion on the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs. I thank the Committee members and the Chairperson, Hon. Lusambo, and his Mangango counterpart, Hon. Mwene, for the report that they have presented and seconded today, respectively.

Madam Speaker, I heard and read from the report on the issue of the harmonisation of the legal framework. I, indeed, agree that we will need to harmonise the legal framework, including the institutions that look after both township and trunk roads in the country. However, I totally disagree on lumping everything onto the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) because I do believe that the CDF has a specific purpose that it was created for. As such, we should not just lump everything, including township roads, into the CDF. I expected the Committee to analyse the total portfolio of funds in the councils, that is, the Equalisation Fund and other sources of revenue such as income now that has been freed from bus stops. This was income that was previously abused by the previous regime…

Ms Lungu: Question!

Mr Munsanje: …and now has been freed…

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: …for Government use in various markets. This is one other source of income. There are many other sources that were previously abused including those for adverts. We have seen that there are a lot of billboards around cities. Those are a lot of revenue. However, when you go deep down to those billboards, you find that for a billboard that is costing you on the market K10,000, the council is getting, maybe, K300, K500 or K700. So, the larger amount is going to people. These are the bad practices that were left by the previous regime that we need to eliminate so that all that revenue can go to councils. I believe that once we have removed such losses from councils and harmonised and reviewed the total sources of income, we should be able to arrive at a stable rate of what we think should go to township roads from council revenue. This should be complemented with a percentage from the Road Development Agency (RDA). As we have heard, the RDA is responsible for the funding of trunk roads. A small percentage, of course, should be given to councils to support maintenance of township roads in townships.

Madam Speaker, we, not long ago, heard about the over contracted township roads from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, last year, I think. That report from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development needed to be taken into consideration because it has an impact. We heard in that the report how roads were funded, but they were not worked on, which means that there was abuse of those funds. In various councils, this is the case.

Madam Speaker, the example given of Kalulushi, where this equipment which was of wrong settings was accepted and bought by the council despite not meeting its requirements, shows just how much abuse there was in the previous regime. We now need to investigate, and the Committee’s report needed to recommend total investigation and prosecution of the abusers because these are the things that have cost the Zambian people. We cannot continue to accept sub standards …

Ms Lungu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: …which are not going to work for us like that grader in Kalulushi and many others that have been mentioned by the former hon. Minister of Home Affairs then who indicated that with others, money was sent and the graders never came. This was when he was Home Affairs Minister. So, we expected that such actions were going to bring about …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe: Iwe, ikalafye!

Mr Munsanje: …disorderliness to the country.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I also wish to indicate that as the UPND Government, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Member!

Kindly resume your seat.

Earlier, the hon. Member for Chienge was trying to raise a point of order.

Mr Lusambo: It is Chawama, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Was it Chawama?

Ms Lungu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Lungu: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on Standing Order No. 65(b). The hon. Member on the Floor is insinuating that there was abuse of funds in councils by the previous Government. Standing Order No. 65(b) says that he must be factual, but he has not produced any evidence. Is he in order to make that assumption and continue debating in that manner?

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member on the Floor, please, try as much as possible to be very factual so that we do not mislead the people who are listening out there.

Hon. Member for Mbabala, you may continue with your debate.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I was indicating that as the UPND Government, we are within our first year in Government and you do not expect us to bring all the laws that we need to amend within the first legislative meeting of Parliament. We have the opportunity now that we are unveiling some of these things; we will definitely bring them here for amendment. This is part and parcel of good governance. We have to benchmark, investigate, understand and be able to bring things here that will stand the test of time. We cannot behave like lice that continues to suck blood from a dead carcass, staying on the skin of a dead animal. If you are from my area, you will understand that in Tonga, we say, one cannot continue kujatilila insengele ishite kuchikanda ko kuchikutu chang’ombe.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Mr Munsanje: Meaning, what is already dead, is dead, Madam Speaker. So, what is dead is dead and cannot be revived. So, it is up to your hon. Members on the left, Madam Speaker, to understand that what is dead is dead and cannot be brought back and should not be bringing us any lessons to this House because the only lessons we can learn are lessons of failure.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member.

Mr Munsanje: Ten years of failure, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you were already guided. Please, try to be focused on the report. Now, we are talking about death which I did not come across in the report. Let us try to avoid issues that are not in the report, especially if they are not related to the report at hand.

Hon. Member for Mbabala, you can wind up debate.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I wish to wind up my debate by…

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr Munsanje: …of course, thanking the Committee and that we will definitely continue to scrutinise this report to ensure that, as a Government, we actually improve township roads. We can assure the Zambian people that that will be done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the point of order is on the hon. Member for Mbabala, who has just finished debating. He knows the rules of the august House, and I think he has now been here long enough to start appreciating the rules of this august House, particularly that we do not debate each other.

Madam Speaker, was he in order to use my debate which was based on the report? I was basically reacting to the report and making comparisons of what has transpired before in so far as the utilisation of the CDF is concerned. He wants to drag me into his chilingalinga debate ... 

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: ... where he is talking about the dead.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is chilingalinga debate?

Mr Kampyongo: It is a headless debate. It has no tail end.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Simply means no tail end.

Hon. UPND Member: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Was he in order to drag me and the office that I held into his debate when he knows that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is there? Those councils which did not receive the equipment were the ones to lodge a complaint. If, indeed, they wanted to recover the money, and did not participate in sharing that money, they should have made reports to the police. Why did he bring me into his debate without knowing or having facts of what transpired?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker. 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, thank you. I did not hear him mention your name, but as earlier guided, all these issues would not be mentioned or be brought to the House if only we stuck to the report and did justice to it. Personally, I am worried about the people who sent you to this House. Please, work for those people by sticking to the report at hand. So, with this guide, can we be focused?

We move on. The hon. Member for Mwandi Constituency may proceed.

Mrs Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, I must make mention, before I debate the report, that one of the things I have enjoyed about being in this Parliament is the Committee work that we do. As these reports are produced, I must mention that there is no Committee that sits as the United Party for National Development (UPND) or any other political party. We sit together to come up with these reports. So, when these reports are presented to this Parliament, they are very apolitical and do not stand on any political basis.

Madam Speaker, the report that has been presented has raised a concern. We have heard that in Kalulushi, there was procurement that was done and I suppose, before this Government of the day.

Madam Speaker, from what we are hearing in the report, this procurement was done and what was delivered was different from what is currently in Kalulushi. So, what we are doing is calling on the Government to make sure that it carries out an investigation to find out way the council in Kalulushi was allowed to get equipment that it did not procure. We are being told it was in excess of K2 million, which is a lot of money. These are the issues that cause us to talk about the corruption that has been happening. When these issues are brought to light, we cannot just let them pass.

Madam Speaker, I would love to agree with the other hon. Members when it comes to issues of township roads maintenance. We cannot lump everything on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF is just about K4 billion of the total K173 billion of the Budget that was approved in this House. So, when we are looking at issues to do with township roads, we cannot say that we lump everything on the CDF. What other amicable ways can we find of maintaining our roads without touching the CDF fund? That CDF fund is already burdened.

Madam Speaker, in as much as we are talking about K25.8 million, there is a lot that is in that CDF that we have to take care of as constituencies. So, my advice to the Committee is that we find other ways. We cannot make recommendations that we should procure everything using the CDF, including the equipment that is involved there. The Equalisation Fund exists in the councils. Those are some of the funds that we can use to make sure that we procure equipment for the maintenance of township roads.

Madam Speaker, I am also taken aback as I remember very well when last year, in this honourable House, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development gave a report on township roads; exactly how much was accumulated. We would have loved, as this Committee went out there, for it to also do an investigation or give us a report on how that was accumulated and the maintenance of the roads that were done in the amount that was accumulated. I heard from the report that it will take about forty years for councils to pay how much was accumulated by the previous Government on township roads or just roads in general. I would have also loved to hear that part; what exactly is happened.

Madam Speaker, we have also heard in this House that there were contractors who were paid for the maintenance of roads and those roads were not delivered. We would have also loved to get an idea of exactly what is happening there.

So, when we are talking about these issues that are brought to the House in regard to the corruption or mismanagement of funds that was happening, we are not paying particular attention to attacking the political party. Our interest is to make sure that the interest of the Zambian people is served. If you got any money or were paid any money to do any township road, we are calling you corrupt because you did not deliver. You are corrupt. You did not deliver. If we are calling you any names that you think –

Interjections

Mrs Sefulo: Madam Speaker, can I be protected?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are debating through me. So, you can continue.

Mrs Sefulo: Madam Speaker, so when we are talking about mismanagement of funds when comes to this authority – we were in this honourable House when a report was delivered on how much misappropriation or, let me say, how much funds were delivered to this council, but the roads were not delivered. Those are also reports that we would have loved to get from the Committee as it was doing this investigation.

Madam Speaker, when we come to this House and say that there was misappropriation or that corruption was involved in these township roads that were done – and these reports, I must mention, are not done by the UPND; they are done collectively. So, what is shocking is that when we are calling people who were misappropriating funds or doing corruption the right names – the people who are doing the reports and are not UPND members are also shocked. So, then, I am made to wonder; are these reports produced by the UPND or by the Committee at large?

Madam Speaker, we would like to get a report on exactly what has been happening in that sector in regard to the corruption that was also involved in the maintenance of township roads. I submit.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before I call upon the hon. Member for Chama North, allow me to call the hon. Member for Kalulushi Constituency.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, I thank you. I just want to sincerely thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion. I also sincerely thank you for allowing the people of Kalulushi to put a voice on the debate on this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I want to specifically talk about the grader. This brings us back to what the Patriotic Front (PF) Government wanted to do.

Madam Speaker, we came on the Floor of this House last year and proposed that the Constitution be amended. One of the amendments we wanted bring was the return of hon. Members of Parliament to councils. Alas, our hon. Colleagues refused. Again, the intentions of the PF Government – because I hear, Madam Speaker, people saying the PF this and the PF that and that the PF did not do anything. Had our hon. Colleagues agreed with us, we would not even be talking about the issue of the grader in Kalulushi.

Madam Speaker, I speak as the hon. Member of Parliament. Kalulushi was given 47 km of township roads which, alas, has been reduced to 12 km.

Madam Speaker, I just want to explain a bit on the vastness of Kalulushi Constituency. It also borders on the township roads of Chambeshi, Chibuluma, Chati, etc. Over the grader that was procured, I have heard many statements such as, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government was corrupt, etc. You sent out your able Committee to do thorough investigations and it has brought out these results. This is your Committee, Madam Speaker. The perpetrators of this crime are there. There is no way that a grader that was not procured according to the amounts that were given would be brought to the council and the council agrees. These perpetrators are there. These are the cases that the United Party for National Development (UPND) should take keen interest in than the cases we hear of of people throwing stones at aeroplanes and they are acquitted.

Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia want to know the truth. We are half way through the year, but when we look at the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), nothing is happening. What we hear from our hon. Colleagues on the other side is, “The thieves performed nothing”, but we see projects that were done by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government being commissioned and there we are, seated.

Madam Speaker, I just want to give proper advice to the UPND, my hon. Colleagues seated on the other side. We are already one year down and the people of Zambia are watching you coming to Parliament to debate on who was corrupt when you have no evidence brought forward and when these cases are neither here nor there. Here is a case in Kalulushi. I am calling upon –

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Member!

Hon. Member, is it possible for you to stick to the report, as required? Let us not load this report with issues that are outside of it. Can we, please, focus on the report? So, with that guide, please, continue.

Ms Mulenga: I oblige, Madam Speaker.

I am sticking to the report. I am just commenting on this matter because there has been an issue of a grader in my constituency and no single township road has been graded. The rainy season is imminent. We are three months away from the onset of the rainy season and here is a non-functioning grader. This is a serious issue. Three quarters of the people in Kalulushi are farmers. They need these township roads so that they can sell their produce. This is one form of corruption that we talking about. If, surely, our hon. Colleagues on the other side are serious about matters of serious corruption, I am requesting the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to find these perpetrators. These perpetrators are in the council. Let them be found so that a proper grader may be brought to the people of Kalulushi and our people can be beneficiaries of their own money. This is tax payer’s money.

Madam Speaker, in my winding up, I want to emphasise that as we come to debate on matters of national interest, we must debate with a lot of maturity. The people of Zambia are watching. It is not we, the people on the left, who should be worried as we are not in the Government. It is the people on the other side that should be worried because we are half year through the Budget and, soon, another Budget will be on the Floor of the House. However, what do we hear? It is squabbles; the thieves, the thieves! Let us debate issues.

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker

Hon. Government Member: Masholi!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Are you done, Hon. Member?

Ms Mulenga: I am concluding. I heard someone rise on a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Continue.

Ms Mulenga: So, in my conclusion, I encourage my hon. Colleagues on the other side, especially the hon. Ministers that time is ticking. We need the CDF to be disbursed so that we have meaningful development in our constituencies. One year down the line, not even a single toilet has been constructed in Kalulushi. So, I urge my hon. Colleagues on the right to be serious and do what the people of Zambia elected us to do.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I state that I support this report. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Committee for having done a good job.

Madam Speaker, an efficient local government system is key for improved public service delivery. However, over the years, the performance of the local government system has left a lot to be desired because our people are not getting what is expected from the local government.

Madam Speaker, if we have to provide efficient public service to our people, I think the local government system needs to undergo radical changes to cope with the increasing demand for quality public service delivery from our people. Currently, there is too much pressure on the CDF. People think that the CDF is going to resolve all matters in respective constituencies, when it is to the contrary. At the end of the day, people are going to blame hon. Members of Parliament that they did not provide this and that.

Madam Speaker, just like Hon. Kampyongo said, it is expensive just to construct a 2km gravel road. I think it is important that we change the mentality of our people thinking that everything should come from the CDF. Even when hon. Members of Parliament ask certain questions here, you find that they are referred to the CDF.

Madam Speaker, an efficient feeder road network is a conduit of rapid economic development and industrialisation. Unfortunately, our feeder roads, especially in rural areas, are pathetic. Gone are the days, like during the Kenneth Kaunda (KK) rule, when all districts had a roads departments and road equipment. They used to carry out regular road maintenance, but today, the Road Development Agency (RDA) does everything. As a result, our roads have deteriorated, and we cannot develop as a country. I think we are still at the level where Europe was more than fifty years ago. We still have a long way to go to achieve industrialisation.

Madam Speaker, it is my appeal that something is done urgently to ensure that our road network, especially in rural areas, is worked on because transportation of agricultural products remains a pipedream. People are able to grow rice and different kinds of agricultural products, but they are marooned in those areas and yet we import agricultural products because our roads are not accessible. So, I think it is important that we take radical measures.

Madam Speaker, we have toll fees; why do we not apportion a certain amount of money to remain with local authorities so that they are able to work on feeder and township roads. If we are going to depend on the RDA to release money to undertake road projects in all local authorities, I think we will be doing a disservice to this nation. So, it is important that a certain portion of resources which toll fees are bringing in be apportioned to local authorities.

Madam Speaker, it is very sad and embarrassing to use a road where there are huge potholes, I think I can describe those potholes as gullies, when there is a tollgate on that road. In other countries, it cannot be allowed that people pay money, but the road is inaccessible. Just near a tollgate, there are gullies. During the KK rule, those roads were maintained by roads departments. So, why have we lost that system?

Madam Speaker, of course, it is true that the CDF may not be able to buy all the required road equipment. For you to have road equipment, you need a lot of money. It is my appeal to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development that the Equalisation Fund and part of the CDF be used to buy this earthmoving equipment and not where focus is only on the CDF.

Madam Speaker, I do not know whether the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development has been monitoring how the Equalisation Fund has been utilised because in some local authorities, it is doing wonders in communities while in others, it goes only towards allowances. We have endless seminars and workshops in Lusaka and provincial headquarters year in year out when our people are yearning for development. I think we need to have a total change because the Equalisation Fund should not be used as money for personal emoluments. This is what is happening in local authorities. You rarely see those officers in offices. They are always out getting per diem and so on and so forth. Meanwhile, our people continue to wallow in serious problems.

Madam Speaker, even a borehole, which could have cost K60,000, you find that a local authority cannot even sink one. Meanwhile, people are sharing water with wild animals. I do not think we should continue with that spirit.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of public housing, it is very sad that gone are the days when President Kenneth Kaunda and the United National Independence Party (UNIP) were able to build housing infrastructure for low and medium classes in this country in local authorities. However, over the years, I do not know whether it has been more than twenty years, I have not seen any local authority build houses for the lower and medium classes. It is very sad. The housing crisis in this country has continued to escalate to a shortage of more than 3 million houses. We have the National Housing Authority (NHA) in the local government system and I hope that in future, we could focus on addressing the accommodation crisis. If you look at employees of the public sector, they get very little money and cannot afford to pay for accommodation, especially in urban areas. What are we doing as a Government and as hon. Members of Parliament to think and plan ahead and resolve –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister comes in, allow me to call upon one of the Independent Members of Parliament, the hon. Member for Chienge, to debate.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the voice of Chienge this opportunity to debate this very important report. I want to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Sorry about that, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I am privileged to be a member and vice-chairperson of the Committee on Local Government Accounts. From this experience and that of having been a council worker before, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, did you say you are a member of this Committee?

Rev. Katuta: No, ours is the Committee on Local Government Accounts and I am the Vice-Chairperson there.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can continue, hon. Member

Rev. Katuta: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I was privileged to have worked for the Kabwe Municipal Council as Chief Buyer. Madam Speaker, it is like we have taken every debate politically. There is no one who can even pretend to know how these councils work. The work culture is nothing to talk about.

Madam Speaker, we can say that we can use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) or the Equalisation Fund to work on township roads, but it is not possible. Why is that? The money is too little. You can just imagine, if councils can fail to raise money to pay salaries.

Madam Speaker, secondly, I heard somebody talk about billboards. Councils cannot even collect money from those billboards. It is not the fault of any Government. It is the inertia and bureaucracy that is within the system of local governance.

Madam Speaker, we have to come up with something that will help the Zambian people to have those township roads. If you pass through Nchelenge, it is a sad story. You cannot even say anything about Chienge. Even to just grade – I have a grader which I bought using the CDF, but it is just marooned there because there is no fuel. The council says it does not have enough money. We should talk about funding the councils in a proper way so that they can do things the way they are supposed to do them. It is no wonder we have engineers who are doing nothing in these offices. We have turned engineers into town planners when they are supposed to look into these issues of the grading of the feeder roads and other things.

Madam Speaker, councils are not adequately funded. We can talk as much as we want to or condemn certain things. If only we, as hon. Members of Parliament, could get back into the councils, I can assure you that we would be able to control things because it is our priority to see proper service delivery to the people of Chienge or any part of the country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you, once again, for giving me this opportunity. Allow me to just advise our hon. Colleagues in the ruling party that this is not a place to settle scores. This is a place where even us, as the Opposition, when we debate, we want to help them. They should take down notes. I used to see, when I came to Parliament, hon. Ministers take notes. There was an hon. Minister who was responsible for planning, and one day, he called me and said, “What you said was valid. I have written it down and will take it up.” This is what we expect. If we want to settle scores, we should find another stage. Let us talk about the suffering of the people of Zambia, the masses. There is no water, but all that the council staff knows is to go to work and get back.

Madam Speaker, it is a pity that I cannot pour out what I have learnt, especially being privileged to sit on the Committee on Local Government Accounts, but I know that during the time for the report, when it comes on the Floor, you will hear more. You will not even point at any hon. Member of Parliament. If anything, it will point back to the powers that be. If these people are not disciplined or are not employed for qualifications that match their contributions or output, then councils are not going to start ticking. Those who are supposed to be workers should not be employed on the basis of the copy and paste degrees that they have.

Madam Speaker, we have a challenge on hand as at now. I have seen the report. We have chiefs to take care of, but most palaces are not even completed or built. The only thing I can beg of the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development is this: Can we revisit the law in terms of how councils should operate. If we say they get the money from the Road Development Agency (RDA), can we have a standard amount, like the way it is with the CDF where everyone gets K25 million? There is nothing like that. It is like it all depends on how much is available.

Please, let us put the needs of Zambians before any other thing. This is the only country we have and we have to voice out, as hon. Members of Parliament, and point out where these councils are lagging behind so that the mother ministry can help them to start ticking.

They cannot even run guest houses. There is one guest house in Zimba I could not believe belonged to the council. What more giving them money to start working on township roads? These are the things that we should look at. What I can only ask the ministry and everyone on the Floor of the House is that we amend the law. Let us come up with a law or an Act that will help these councils to deliver. In other parts of the country, the Central Government just does a little bit; all the works are done by municipal councils or district councils.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, looking at the list, we still have many hon. Members who want to debate, but looking at time, we are behind for today. We will consider each one of you in the next report that we will consider next week.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, I will be very brief and start by expressing my sincere gratitude to the mover of the Motion, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi, and his hon. Colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mangango.

Madam Speaker, the amount of time you have allocated to this subject confirms the importance of the study that the Committee undertook and, therefore, I was a little bit disturbed when I saw the convolution of ideas that clearly departed from the heart and soul of this report.

Madam Speaker, this report basically sought to check two things in my view, and that is the capacity of councils to maintain township roads and the challenges that may be there and how to deal with them. In the report, the Chairperson was very clear about the requirement to harmonise legislation in order to get this right. I agree with him that we need to not only harmonise the regulations, but also the statutes that govern the local government system. Therefore, for us to make sure that we get it right, collectively, it is important that we bring the provisions of all the Acts that govern this area together and harmonise them. 

Madam Speaker, to begin with, it is to say, are we operating within or outside the Act? The answer is that we are operating outside the Act because the Local Government Act, Chapter 281, mandates councils to mobilise money. The question here is, are they mobilising money according to the provisions of the Act? Councils are supposed to collect some earnings from electricity tariffs, but are they doing that? The answer is no. Councils are supposed to collect money from motor vehicle licenses to give them capacity. Are they doing that? The answer is no. Councils are supposed to collect money from tolling fees. Are they collecting money from the toll gates? The answer is no. So, we liken councils in their current form as a chicken whose feathers have been plucked off over a period of time.

Madam Speaker, councils were getting money from housing, a long time ago. The things that we do as governors of today, we must be mindful, will have an overbearing effect on the governors of tomorrow. There was a Government that decided to sell off all the council houses at K10. It did not think about what we are dealing with today and because of that act, without thinking about how to replenish housing, councils are even failing to patch potholes.

Madam Speaker, take a big council like the Lusaka City Council (LCC), for example. There are many potholes in our township roads that have been in existence for more than three years and people just turn a blind eye to these because they do not have the capacity. Why do they not have the capacity? It is because the platform that has been provided by the legal framework for them to collect this money is not there. The carpet has been pulled off from under their feet. They are depending on the Local Authority Equalisation Fund, Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the Central Government.

Madam Speaker, one of the solutions, in my view, is to go full throttle on our decentralisation drive. Once we go full throttle on our decentralisation drive, we will be able to put the councils on a platform and say, let us see how you compete in terms of ingenuity and initiative of how you are going to collect revenues, which will, in turn, provide the much needed services for our people.

Today, one of the most defined revenues of councils is basically the allocation of graves. When people die, they charge a small amount of money. There is no enterprise at council level. How, then, can a council even mend a pothole?

Madam Speaker, this report must be interrogated much more than what we have done today. I think that there was some injustice that was done to this report because some people decided to go on a political war path in trying to get this thing right.

My appeal to both the left and right is that when we are dealing with issues that affect our people, who we are pressing for at every given time to better their living standards, we leave politics for the field outside. We all have what it takes to do politics in the field outside, but it should not be here in this Chamber. This Chamber is supposed to bring out solutions to the problems that we face. It does not matter who we are today, the fact of the matter is that one day, we shall leave this place and there will be another set of leaders. How do we want to be remembered? Is it as leaders who just argued and pointed fingers at each other every given way of the process? The answer is no.

As I come to the end, Madam, the subject that we have here, and the honourable chair of the Committee also has a historic perspective, I always say in my own words that the rebuilding of our nation in terms of township roads was activated, I think, during the time of the late President Rupiah Banda under the Formula One Project. It was then carried over by the late President Michael Sata, and may both their souls rest in peace, under the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project. Why I keep saying it is like buying a very expensive phone when you do not have money for talk time, is that some projects were abandoned along the way. Those that were below 80 per cent were discontinued. Already, that brought to the surface a problem that there was no money to maintain these roads.

Madam Speaker, in order for us to get it right, I think that we must go full throttle on our decentralisation programme and make sure that we allocate fixed amounts of money and not as the report is saying, where, it is the call of the Road Development Agency (RDA) to allocate money as it wishes. We must have a fixed amount for each council to use to buy a compactor and not a grader, a bowser and those other things they are talking about. This is because once a tarmac road is established, it is established. You are now going to maintain it by mending potholes and not buying bowsers and graders because those are for feeder roads and outside this subject.

Madam, I thank you.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, I just want to urge hon. Members of Parliament to find time to go through reports like this one and understand them before they comment on their contents.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, I just want to protect my Committee from the attack which came from one hon. Member of Parliament who questioned our work when we know that we do pick a specific topic when it is needed for us to investigate. This time around, we went with our Committee members to investigate the issue to do with the maintenance of township roads and not construction of township roads. We went specifically for the issue of the maintenance of township roads. So, I urge my hon. Colleagues, once more, to read these reports because they are very important. This is not a Committee report; it is a national report.

Madam Speaker, I thank the people and hon. Members of Parliament. First of all, I thank my Committee for coming up with a very brilliant report which has been accepted by the entire House. I want to thank the members because they have done a great job. We should continue to work for mother Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I want thank all hon. Members of Parliament who contributed to the debate on this report, which is very important because it deals with issues of roads in our communities.

Madam Speaker, I want to say to the Executive and to the Leader of Government Business in the House, Her Honour the Vice-President, that the report which has been tabled today is very important. We hope and trust that it will not only land itself where other reports have and gather dust. We want the Government to implement this important report.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILL

SECOND READING

THE JUDGES (CONDITIONS OF SERVICE) (Amendment) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, Article 232 of the Constitution of Zambia establishes the Emoluments Commission with the mandate of determining, on the recommendation of the relevant authority or commission, the emoluments of public officers, chiefs and members of the house of chiefs. Further, Article 264(2) of the Constitution, provides that the emoluments of a State officer, councilor, constitution office holder and judge shall be determined by the Emoluments Commission.

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, following the enactment of the Emoluments Commission Act, 2022, by this august House, it is necessary to bring all other existing laws in conformity with the said act. One such existing law is the Judges (Conditions of Service) Act, whose amendment lays before this august House for consideration.

Madam Speaker, it has become necessary to amend the Judges (Conditions of Service) Act as a consequential amendment in order to harmonise its provisions with those of the Emoluments Act, 2022. Currently, the conditions of service of judges are determined by the President. The amendment seeks to revise the Act to provide that determination of the Judges Conditions of Service be, subject to confirmation, done by the Emoluments Commission Act on recommendation of the President.

Madam Speaker, the Bill is very progressive and should be supported because the proposed amendment is intended to allay anticipated inconsistencies in the law. I urge hon. Members of this House to whole heartedly support it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Ms T. Lungu (Chawama): Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference set out in Standing Orders No. 197(f) and 198 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders 2021, the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance was tasked to scrutinise the Judges (Conditions of Service) (Amendment) Bill No. 6 of 2022, referred to it on Wednesday, 30^th March, 2022.

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, Article 232 of the Constitution of Zambia, as amended by Act No. 2 of 2016 established the Emoluments Commission to, inter alia, provide for the membership, functions, operations and financial management of the commission and provide for a harmonised framework to govern the determination and management of emoluments of chiefs and officers in a State organ and State institutions.

The introduction of this Bill, therefore, was simply to align the provisions of the Judges (Conditions of Service) Act, Chapter 277 of the Laws of Zambia with those of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, since hon. Members of this august have had the opportunity to read the Committee’s report, allow me to highlight only three issues.

Madam Speaker, the first matter of concern is the proposed amendment in Clause 3 of the Bill, which seeks to provide for the determination of the emoluments of a Judge by the Emoluments Commission on the recommendation of the President. The Committee noted that the majority of the stakeholders who appeared before it did not support the proposed amendment to the extent that it was inconsistent with Article 264(2) of the Republican Constitution. The Committee is in agreement with the stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, the Committee is of the considered view that the mandate to determine conditions of service for judges and other perquisites should be exclusive to the rights of the Emoluments Commission.

Madam Speaker, by the letter and spirit of the Constitution in Article 264(2), the emoluments of a State officer, councillor, constitutional office holder and a judge shall be determined by the Emoluments Commission, as prescribed. The provision does not refer to any authority or commission.

Further, the Committee is of the view that not having the Republican President play a role in determining the emoluments of judges would guarantee both the functional and financial independence and autonomy of the Judiciary. The Committee, therefore, recommends that this particular proposed amendment be deleted.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes with concern the irregularity whereby conditions of service of magistrates of subordinates and local courts, research advocates and other judicial officers where determined on the basis of collective agreement between the Public Servants Union and the Executive. The Committee is of the view that the Conditions of Service for judicial officers should be included in the Judges (Conditions of Services) Act, Chapter 277 of the Laws of Zambia. The Committee, therefore, recommends that the Conditions of Service for Magistrates of Subordinates Courts and Local Courts, research advocates and other judicial officers should be included in the Judges (Conditions of Service) Act to address the prevailing anomaly.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, the Committee observes that the definition of “Emoluments” in the principal Act is restricted to salary and allowances. In this regard, the Committee welcomes the widened definition of ‘emoluments’ in the proposed amendment. The Committee is of the view that deleting the definition of ‘emoluments’ under the principal Act and substituting it for the definition of ‘emoluments’ under Article 266 of the Constitution is a constitution imperative. This is because the definition contained in the Constitution is more expansive and there is no debate at all in aligning the definition of ‘emoluments’ under the principal Act to the Constitution. In the same vein, the Committee wishes to state that the insertion of “Emoluments Commission” in Section 2 of the principal Act would provide a contextual understanding of what the Emoluments Commission is. In this regard, the insertion of ‘Emoluments Commission’ is non-controversial.

Madam Speaker, allow me to render my sincere gratitude to all the stakeholders who gave both written and oral submissions. This greatly assisted the Committee in its work. I wish to thank you, Madam Speaker, and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support services rendered to the Committee throughout its deliberations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for an opportunity to comment on the Bill as proposed by the hon. Minister of Justice, coming up for Second Reading.

Madam Speaker, I also want to commend the mover of the Motion, in support of this Bill. I want to state, Madam Speaker, that in agreeing with the recommendations of your Committee, we must also thank it for listening to the stakeholders and advising the Executive as regards these amendments that are being proposed.

Madam Speaker, the crafters of the articles in the Constitution knew very well that in as much as there is a proposal for the Emoluments Commission, we must not dilute the doctrine of Separation of Powers. In this case, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Justice to the same article that he referred to, Article 232 (2) of the Constitution:

“(2)      the Emoluments Commission shall determine, on recommendation of the relevant authority or commission, the emoluments of public officers, chiefs and members of the House of Chiefs, as provided in this Constitution or as prescribed.”

Madam Speaker, to try and take ‘the authority’ as indicated here and equate it to the President who is the head of the Executive threatens the doctrine of the Separation of Powers because the President, as we know, is the head of one arm of the Government, the Executive; the Judiciary on the other hand, is headed by the Chief Justice, just as we have you, Madam Speaker, as head of this legislative arm of the Government. So, we must ensure that even as we propose this amendment, we avoid –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 14^th June, 2022.

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