Friday, 26^th November, 2021

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

 

THIRTEENTH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY PUBLIC PARLIAMENTARY HANDBOOK

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform you that the National Assembly management has compiled a provisional Public Parliamentary Handbook for the Thirteenth National Assembly. The publication provides relevant details of all of you, including your brief biography. It serves as a tool for consultation, interaction and exchange of information between yourselves and the public, particularly, the civil society.

 

In this regard, each of you will receive a draft biography from the Office of the Clerk, for purposes of verifying the correctness of the information contained, therein. You are urged to submit verified copies of your biography to the Principal Clerk (Research) on or, before Thursday, 2^nd December, 2021.

 

Hon. Members who wish to change their profile photographs should indicate their intention in the form to be provided by the Office of the Clerk, so that arrangements are made for the photographs to be retaken.

 

I thank you.

 

_______

 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

 

Madam, on Tuesday, 30^th November, 2021, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads:

 

1. Head 01 – Office of the President – State House;
2. Head 02 – Office of the Vice-President;
3. Head 03 – National Assembly; and
4. Head 29 – Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

 

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 1^st December, 2021, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by the consideration of a Private Member’s Motion entitled: “Introduce Youth Fund”, to be moved by Mr M. Fube, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi Constituency. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads:

 

1. Head 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security;
2. Head 11 – Zambia Police Service – Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security; and
3. Head 30 – Zambia Correctional Services.

 

Madam, on Thursday, 2^nd December, 2021, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

 

1. Head 16 – Drug Enforcement Commission;
2. Head 10 – Zambia Police Service Commission;
3. Head 36 – Zambia Correctional Services Commission; and
4. Head 14 – Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

 

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 3^rd December, 2021, the Business of the House will commence with The Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

 

1. Head 51 – Ministry of Transport and Logistics;
2. Head 54 – Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development;
3. Head 52 – Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

_______

 

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

 

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has been on many fora alarming the people of Zambia that the Government will collect their money and property. Further, Her Honour the Vice-President has told the people of Zambia that their property and money are in Dubai. The people of Kabushi Constituency want to know how much money and property are in Dubai. Further, they want to know who took that money to Dubai, and also, the ministry where that money was stolen from.

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabushi for that question and I wish him well in his stay as hon. Member of Parliament.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: He is concerned that the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, alarmed the nation that the Government will collect the people’s money and property. The hon. Member also referred to the issue I raised, about people’s money and property being in Dubai and he wants to know who took it there.

 

Madam Speaker, there is nothing alarming about what has been stated here. What is alarming is what has gone wrong with our nation.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I pray that the hon. Member for Kabushi is very innocent because investigations are still going on. Sometimes we choose to share a little. The Government of Mr Hakainde Hichilema has given those who have done wrong ample time to show remorse to the Zambian people by telling us exactly what happened. As at now, investigations are going on and the truth will soon be revealed in the courts of law.

 

Madam Speaker, people should understand that we do not want investigations to be done half way and thereafter, dash to the courts of law and fail to prosecute properly.  Investigations are going on and what speaks to oneself is the heart. Each one of us must do introspection and be able to tell when we are innocent. The hon. Member for Kabushi, who speaks a language very close to what I speak knows that imbila ya mushi, tabaiyankula. I am sure my young brother, Chitotela there, understands. Uwayankula euyowine.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: That is the way we can end this. I am sure the hon. Member knows that I am not lying. These are things that happen. If in the village a person says, “Somebody has bewitched my son” and you stand up and you say, “You are talking about me,” everybody will say think it is you.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: The hon. Member should know that one should never respond when they are innocent. In fact, he should also be worried like us and ask, “Mmm, so, such things were happening?” We know we will soon find out, and people should remain calm and cool. As long as one’s heart is innocent, there is no need for him or her to panic or to ask questions that are alarming.  If he does not know the truth, why should he feel it is alarming? He should actually be surprised that someone did that rather than saying that we are stating is alarming. Who are we alarming?  

 

Madam Speaker, this is the Government of laws and it will not victimise anybody. When one is called upon, he or she must state his or her position. If one is as innocent as my son wants people to believe he is – I did not say he is.  

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: If he is innocent, he should know that the truth must be known one of these days. We do not intend to alarm the nation or to lie. We have some evidence, and we need to find witnesses. However, if the hon. Member keeps talking about it, he may be considered to be on the list of those to be investigated.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, the people of Kalabo and Zambia at large would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President, on behalf of the Government, about the issue of people acquiring properties believed to be proceeds of corruption and other vices. Does the Government intend to offer amnesty to those who feel, like it has been stated, they are part and parcel of corruption or have acquired what they have corruptly, so that they surrender willfully, and are not prosecuted?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for that question. I think, if I followed him correctly, he is asking whether there is a general amnesty for those who may have acquired property as proceeds of crime or indeed corruption, which is also a crime. I think that my explanation may not have been very clear. However, we have said that those who will voluntarily come through will be given amnesty. If a person will be found guilty after investigations, it will be discretionary. I hope people understand what I am saying. It will not work if people will start negotiating for amnesty when they are caught. This is the time for people to use the opportunity. If they will be caught, indeed, crime is a crime and it should be prosecutable, if there is such a term. However, if people will want to fight even when they have no strength to do so, then, the law will take its course. The law does not say that everybody who is caught should be given amnesty. No, that is not what it means. It is not general for anybody at any time.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, on 28^th October, 2021, during the swearing-in ceremony of the Attorney-General, the Solicitor-General and the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) Governor, His Excellency the President indicated that there are so many lacunae in the current Constitution. He went on to say that as soon as the Attorney-General gets into office, he needed to look at some of the Articles to be refined. I also remember that on 12^th November, 2021, when the Africa Union (AU) delegation visited His Excellency the President, he indicated that there is a problem with the Public Order Act. The people of Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency and the nation at large, would like to find out when the Government will start refining the Constitution and revising the Public Order Act.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member who has raised a question of national concern. The hon. Member, in his question, was not even supposed to refer to what the President said. The question should be, “Do we have a near perfect Constitution?” I am using the term ‘near perfect’ because there is only one perfect being, who is God. I think all of us know that there are lacunae in the Constitution that need to be refined or made better. We also have an issue of the Public Order Act.

 

Madam Speaker, hon. Members and the hon. Member for Bwacha in particular, may note that the party in power, the United Party for National Development (UPND, has been committed to do this right from the beginning, even when our hon. Colleagues (PF) were in power. We asked the previous Government if we could sit and have a normal dialogue, and I am using the word ‘normal’ selectively, to deal with the Constitution and the Public Order Act, but it chose to consult the so-called stakeholders, who are probably not fully known, with a law compelling people to do things in this House. To assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha, we will definitely work on the Constitution. We will refine it and, maybe, bring up new proposals. That is a commitment. We are going to do that. We are also going to look at other pieces of legislation, which include the Public Order Act.

 

Madam Speaker, let me state that this is a Budget Session and not a Legislative Session. That is number one. It is not legislative. Even if we had the Legislative Session, we would not make a commitment that these two will surely be done. However, the hon. Member should just know that we will not go into the next election with the same kind of Constitution. We have to make certain things better. We appreciate the effort that was made by our hon. Colleagues before, but I think the mixture of things made us uncomfortable. We will make it better and this should come during Legislative Sessions of this House.

 

Madam Speaker, we should work together. Today, I am sitting on the right, but it does not mean that I will forever be here. I think this is why we do wrong things. When they are there (on the left), it does not mean that they will be there forever. Therefore, we should not make laws to punish the people on the other side.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: The people on this side (right) are not like that. This is an opportunity for Zambians to really work together, particularly through this House. Remember, some day, some of us on the right sat there (left). Some of the hon. Members on the left, especially my son, thought he would die on the right.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: So, everything was being...

 

Mr Lusambo: That is why you are my mother; and I love you so much.

 

The Vice-President: ... done to entrench. In democracy, there is no entrenching.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: So, we are very much aware that this is not our permanent position, but it we will be for a long time.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, long time is not permanent.

 

Mr Lusambo: 2026, prepare yourselves!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

The Vice-President: Thank you. You can continue dreaming, my son.

 

Madam Speaker, this is the way I can handle the question asked by the hon. Member for Bwacha. It is a concern for the entire nation, and all of us must be looking at the Constitution and know what we want made better so that on that particular day, it will not be a committee of the ruling party, but the entire Zambia represented. Even Pambashe will be represented in this constitutional amendment process.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, during campaigns and even before, our Republican President, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema, on several occasions gave us calculations of how he was going to reduce the price of fuel by more than 80 per cent. He could give us the storage fees by Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited, the transportation and everything. Now, we have heard that the prices of fuel and electricity are likely to be increased.

 

Is it one of the conditions that the Government is receiving from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) that these costs are being increased against its campaign promises? Why should we, Zambians, continue trusting the Government?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you for the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South alleging that we are abrogating our own campaign promises; that we promised that, generally, prices will go down, and that includes the price of fuel prices. Now, he says he has heard that the price of fuel will go up and wants to know whether these are things that we are being compelled to do.

 

Madam Speaker, sometimes, in order for you to go down, you need to go up a bit. That is a general statement. However, when people are talking of processes, it does not necessarily mean increasing. I will not give a very conclusive answer here, but it is my hope that we will come up with a more comprehensive statement on how we are going to handle the fuel issue. There are many things that could be done, but the fact is that increasing prices is not our agenda. The agenda for Zambia is for prices to go down.

 

Madam Speaker, there are many things that have been happening in the fuel industry, that will have to be looked at. The Government’s concern of the Government spending so much should be a concern to all of them, particularly, those who have been in the Government before. They know how they want to distribute resources to the people, but the fact that the Government goes out is not an immediate indication of an increase. It will take a bit of time for us to stabilise because we have moved a long time on this line of thought and understanding that fuel must pass through certain processes. I am sure the statement will make it better, but I will not stand here and say the prices will not be increased or go down.

 

Madam Speaker, what is our intention? Our intention is to bring the prices down, except that the processes, or sometimes the route may seem to take us the wrong side, but at the end of the day, we must calm down.  

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: It is doable. I think we used to explain how many invisible middlemen are in this process, if they could be found – Musonda ichongo. If they could be found –

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam, you are not clear.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this is as clear as I can get.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: I am not clear, but somebody spoke in parables. Try to understand. I am very clear that there is an intention to bring prices down, but the process can take you up and down.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, if I want to...

 

Hon. Member: Question!

 

The Vice-President: ... go to town, I definitely will have to pass through Northmead. When I do that, it does not mean that I am going to Northmead. I think this parable is now clearer.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Laugher

 

Mr Lusambo: Ema experienced Veep aba.

 

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask a question to Her Honour the Vice-President on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central Constituency.

 

Madam Speaker, the population of Petauke Central Constituency is more than 100,000 people and 90 per cent are farmers. However, right now, these farmers are stranded because they do not have seed and other farming inputs. They started planting their fields last week, but 80 per cent of them still have the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) receipts and are unable to buy seed and fertiliser.

 

The Question is: “Her Honour the Vice-President, is the good Government of the United Party for National Development (UPND)...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr J. E. Banda: ...talking to Zambian seed companies so that using those receipts, they can be given debt swap to buy the seed?”

 

Madam Speaker, also, the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) is under the Ministry of Agriculture. I know it is a parastatal, but is aligned to the Ministry of Agriculture. The Food Reserve Agency (FRA) is also aligned to the Ministry of Agriculture. Would the Government talk to NCZ so that farmers with those receipts can get the D-Compound fertiliser? I am asking this question because immediately they plant their maize –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I think Her Honour the Vice-President has heard your question.

 

Mr J. Banda: Okay, thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Petauke for his concern about the farmers. It is very important that we get concerned with our people and what they are going through. I know that the issue of agriculture is extremely topical for now, and we have tried to speak to it almost every other day.

 

Madam, we have segregated types of farmers. There are the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) ones and the business people, who do farming on their own. We know that those under FISP have been provided with seed. The question that, “Is it possible for these farmers who are using receipts from the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to acquire seed and fertiliser?” This is a very good question but, we need to know that the owners of that seed and fertiliser are businessmen.

 

Madam Speaker, I am informed that even the other day, the hon. Minister said it is a possibility to explore. However, we cannot stand here and say we will before talking to those who provide seed and produce fertiliser. We are not that kind of the Government that will go to compel. We do understand that there is a possibility of exploring that and I pray that my hon. Minister will be engaged to see whether it is possible for it to be done as quickly as it can be.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the escalation of commodity prices in the country is a worry to the people, and more so those in the lower income brackets. The concerns by the people are whether the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is intervening and cushioning the escalating prices of foodstuffs and necessities for the general citizenry in Zambia.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Pambashe, who is concerned, according to him, about the high prices of commodities. I do not know whether he is talking about all commodities or foodstuffs. Maybe I did not get it clearly, I am sorry. His concern is about the low-income earners and whether they are able to meet their daily needs.

 

Madam Speaker, I cannot really confirm that there is a general increase in the price of foodstuffs. For us to say anything about this, it would mean us carrying out a research.

 

Madam Speaker, I do not think, for example, the price of maize meal has gone up because that is one staple food that we should be concerned about. What I am saying is that I need to be given time to look at the price index, the food basket, and what is really happening. At the right time, the hon. Member can assist me by reminding me, one of these Fridays, as to what is really happening. However, generally, we do not expect a spike in food prices because there is literally no reason for such a thing.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Zambezi East.

 

Mr Lusambo: Potential hon. Minister of Home Affairs. Hammer!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, sometime this year, during the run-up to the elections, we had a situation where the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) was bringing in ballot papers or election materials into the country via a chartered plane, which was Emirates. Aboard that plane were materials that the ECZ categorically stated were not part of the materials that were on the packaging list of what it was expecting. A clear look at those foreign materials indicated that they were information and technology communication (ICT) gadgets, including cell phone accessories.

 

Madam, members of the public suspected that those were gadgets which were being brought in by our hon. colleagues on your left hand side at the time they were ruling. Those gadgets ...

 

Mr Lusambo: Ema home affairs!

 

Mr Kambita: ... were gathered and taken somewhere. However, the public would want to know where these gadgets are being kept. Who is the owner of these gadgets?  Have any arrests been made of the people who were involved in bringing in these items which we suspect were meant for rigging? The nation wants to know. Where are these items? Where are they being kept? Who is responsible for their custody?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Zambezi East for the question on foreign materials that were found aboard a chartered plane that was meant to bring electoral materials. I do not think I can give an answer comprehensively. The hon. Member could probably give me time for research.

 

Madam Speaker, the general principle, however, that we have stated in this House is that there is no time barring. I do not know what the legal people will say. Nothing stops the prosecution of a crime, even after a long time.

 

Hon. Government Member: Umulandu taubola

 

The Vice-President: Aha! Very good!

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: As I stand here, the story to this head is a little foreign. So, I would find it difficult –

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: I am not saying it is not there. I am simply referring to this head. I will not start answering things just for the sake of answering. It is important – Maybe, the hon. Member could put it in writing so that there is a little more research for us to give an answer. If such a thing was done and the law says it is a crime, then we can continue through the investigative wings to find out. However, if it was meant for rigging, then I would say sorry to any colleague or colleague who planned that rigging because it failed, miserably.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: If there is any cry, it should be on the other side (left). For us, we did win. If a crime was committed, however, we will not say just because we won. Crime must be followed through to see if anybody is guilty or not of it.

Madam Speaker, such things are meant to be a warning to us. So, we are learning a lot of what our other Colleagues did, which has resulted in crimes. That goes for the future. Again, I will say that when people are in office, they should remain clean. They should do the work that the Zambians have entrusted them to do because if they commit a crime, umulandu taubola. A case never rots. There is no statute limitation to a crime and time for prosecution.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, in 2015, the then Government made a decision to transfer close to 400 workers, who were under the Ministry of Works and Supply under the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) Department to the Zambia National Service (ZNS). The transfer could not work out because of the nature of the military department that they were transferred to. These civilians who were transferred to the ZNS could not be fused into the ZNS. Amongst these people were road engineers, heavy duty repairers, drivers and of course, other support staff. From 2015 to date, these people have been doing nothing but they have been drawing salaries from the Government. To me, this is a waste of resources. What is the Government doing about this issue, which has not been addressed, where 400 people are drawing salaries without rendering a service to the Government?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan for that very important question. He says 400 workers were transferred from the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) in the Ministry of Works and Supply to the Zambia National Service ((ZNS) in 2015, and they are drawing salaries without working. Some of them are professionals who are really needed like the engineers as he mentioned those who do road works.

 

Madam Speaker, this question is so important that I cannot stand here and give an answer. Could he support this Government by putting the matter in writing? It needs research so that we can see whether they are going to be incorporated in the proper ZNS as the Government tries to restructure how it is going to perform. Could the hon. Member please put it in writing so that we have time to research?

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, am I edible? Am I audible!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are loud and clear. Please, go ahead!

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) is not appreciating the freedom the United Party for National Development (UPND) has given it. After Hon. Kampyongo won his election petition, –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 

Can we have some order.  Her Honour the Vice-President cannot get the question.

 

Hon. Member, you may continue.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam, I was saying that the PF is not appreciating the freedom the UPND has given it. After Hon. Kampyongo won his election petition on Wednesday, Shiwang’andu Constituency became a field of violence. I am very concerned and disturbed about the violence happening in Shiwang’andu Constituency, where heavily armed PF cadres with different weapons beat UPND supporters. Some of our supporters were left half-dead and others are still admitted to hospital with serious injuries. What will the Government do to those PF cadres in Shiwang’andu who beat people and their leaders who are arming them?

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have some order, please!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bweengwa for bringing out that question. The hon. Member premised his question on the fact that it seems there is no appreciation of the peace and order that the Government of President Hakainde is bringing to the land. He cited the example of the violence in Shiwang’andu after the declaration of the win by the hon. Member of Parliament, who is part of this House, Hon. Kampyongo.

 

Madam Speaker, to start with, I wish to state that it is sad. I believe that we, here, who are leaders, should be the first ones to stop or restrain our cadres from the habits that they have had over a long time. If you are the leader and violence is going on right under your nose, you should ask yourself why that is happening. Being a politician myself, even though violence came with the party that came in 2011, I never allowed my boys or girls to beat up people who were on the opposite side. My language was, someone should not lose his or her eye for me to win.  Therefore, let us all take responsibility. People are fighting and we come here to laugh about it. This is where children of our people are being butchered. What leadership is that? I do not know, maybe, I am not a politician. It hurts. So, all of us must take responsibility.

 

Madam Speaker, it is just an observation that there is pain. If there is violence in the land, let us not blame cadres. Let us blame ourselves who are here because we are the leaders.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: We are the leaders. You will find that when someone’s daughter goes to marry another person’s son, she will be maimed and may not marry again because of violence. Come on. Ladies and gentlemen, hon. Members of this House, let us change our attitude. Let us preach peace because if an armed person finds an innocent lot, he or she will get neutralised.

 

Madam Speaker, on the specific example given about Shiwang’andu, I believe that the police should take their position. It is not us to tell people to make an arrest. That time is over. If people do something wrong, the police who are properly trained should know what to do. They should not be watching crimes being committed here and there. So, on this matter, I believe and trust that the police under my hon. Colleague here should be there to arrest those who are perceived to have committed a crime and within time, take them to the courts of law, so that the judgment is fairly passed, and the guilty or those found wanting serve their sentences. That is the only way we are going to stop this.

 

Madam Speaker, therefore, I urge the youth, men and women out there not to be used by people who give them K50. This for me, I believe with passion. Do they know what they have left in their pockets? Why should the youth, men and women go to fight or kill for them? Never! I am counselling all of us in this House to take our positions and say no to violence. If we take our positions, this violence can end. There were elections even before, where we had literally no violence.  For example, I would meet a colleague from another party and we would even hug. My people would say, “Uum, if he gets sick, they will say it is you” and I would say, “Look, this is my relative.” Where we come from, the constituencies, we are all relatives. I know from the example we have given that they are relatives, but just because of your desire for power, we want to turn on our friend. We should take responsibility. I wish I was the jury and judge. I would then say an hon. Member of Parliament whose constituency has violence is the one who should be caged.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to ask Her honour the Vice-President a question on behalf of the people of Chama North.

 

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government has been in power for more than three months now. However, I have noticed a strange way of running the affairs of the nation in as far as presidential foreign trips are concerned. I have seen that the President has been engaging investors and other business communities without travelling with hon. Ministers responsible for such sectors. For example, the President was in the United States of America (USA), and I think on the sidelines, he met investors in the energy sector. Recently, he was in Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), which is a huge agriculture market.

 

Madam Speaker, much as the President has to travel with a lean delegation, is he not overloading himself with too much work and disadvantaging the country a great deal because a President cannot be a jack of all trades? Is it the policy of the New Dawn Administration which is here to stay not to understand that running the Government is a complex matter?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chama North for his question. He is concerned about the presidential travels. He thinks that the President is travelling alone without taking hon. Ministers with him and he has cited the President’s recent trip to the United States of America (USA).

 

Madam Speaker, the President went to the United Nations (UN) Conference. To start with, the hon. Member may wish to note that the Executive is the President in our system. Therefore, he can choose whom to travel with.  The hon. Member can ask the hon. Minister of Finance, about the things the President did in the United States of America (USA), which was at the UN General Assembly (UNGA). He is better placed to escort the President where there is general understanding of the economy. So, the hon. Member cannot say he went without hon. Ministers. Then, he is not being fair.

 

Madam Speaker, let me remind this august House that even in Opposition, the President said he was the number one marketing manager or whatever title. He is our marketer.

 

Mr Lusambo: Sales man!

 

The Vice-President: Call him sales man, it does not matter. He is selling the good things of our country. In the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), he was dealing with commercial issues. The hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry had already done a lot of background work. The President was working. He could not divide himself. He was working with the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA). So, already, in any of these meetings, the President is fully briefed before he starts off. Therefore, to say the President is disadvantaging the country by overloading himself is not fair. Hon. Chilangwa knows what we say when a person is carrying something heavy. The one who carries the load is the one who feels it. So, if the President is still walking and able to do what he is doing, the hon. Member for Chama North, should not start feeling sorry for him.  

 

Madam Speaker, the President is setting the stage and his hon. Ministers are also very involved. When he travels, the hon. Ministers will have done their work. He then goes to goes to wind up and put in fillers to refine the agreements. We have the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs almost forever travelling with him when there is a need. So, yes, he wants a lean travel team as a way of saving. We should not spend everything, beyond even what we are going to negotiate for. That is bad planning. We do not want to use the term we used while in the Opposition. Now, we are in the Government, and we must be moderate.

 

Madam Speaker, the President is working for this country. He is not there to disadvantage it. Benefits will be seen.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

REVIEW OF THE CONTRACT BETWEEN ZAMBIA AIRWAYS AND ETHIOPIAN AIRLINES

 

98. Mr Mumba (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics:

 

1. whether the Government has any plans to urgently review the contract between Zambia Airways Limited and Ethiopian Airlines, to ensure a win-win situation, before the launch of the national airline which is scheduled for 1^st December, 2021;
2. if so, when the review will commence; and
3. whether all attendant issues will be resolved before the launch.

 

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government will not be reviewing the principle shareholders agreement signed with the Ethiopian Airlines and the fundamental principles will not change. However, the Government, through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), is reviewing attendant agreements with the Ethiopian Airlines to ensure that its terms and conditions are equitable, and do not, in any way, disadvantage the Zambian Government.

 

Madam Speaker, the review process has commenced, and it is focusing on the two agreements entered into between the Zambia Airways (2014) Limited and the Ethiopian Airlines namely the Expertise Support Contract and the Technical Services Agreements, which are maintenance agreements. These two agreements do not have a direct bearing on the launch of the airline.

 

Mr Chairperson, finally, the Government through the IDC will ensure that all related issues are resolved before the launch of the airline.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, when the New Dawn Government just assumed office, there were conflicting statements that came from the hon. Minister’s office. One of the statements was that we are not going ahead with the Zambia/Ethiopia deal. I also read in the public media that the Government has no obligation to whatever things the PF Government entered into with the Ethiopia Airlines, in terms of re-launching of Zambia Airways. Now that the Government has come back to terms, what strategies does the Government have to sustain the Zambian airline?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I want to appreciate the question posed by the hon. Member for Kabushi. Once again, I want to express regret at the unfortunate manner in which the hon. Member will disregard the rules of this House. He cannot bring to this House issues which are not factual because there is no time whatsoever, that my ministry had issued statements to the effect that we shall be discontinuing with the Zambia/Ethiopia deal. I think that when he comes to this House, he owes it to not only this House, but the nation at large, that he brings facts to this House and not trivialise the very important issues that this House is tasked to debate.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lusambo: He has not answered my question.

 

Mr Katakwe: There was no question.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Icisungu!

 

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, can you hear me?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are loud and clear. Please, go ahead.

Mr Chisanga: Madam Speaker, I just want to thank the hon. Minister for the statement he has made. How many Zambian pilots, engineers and cabin crew have been recruited under the arrangement with the Ethiopian Airlines?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, you can answer that if you have an answer for that…

 

Mr Lusambo: Takwete!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … because it is not part of this question.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I want to say that obviously, the hon. Member asked a more detailed question. Perhaps, I advise that if the hon. Member so wished, he may redirect that question for a more comprehensive detailed statement that I could come with and furnish the House.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lusambo: Nachilanda ati takwete!

 

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, this investment that the Government is trying to put in, has had a lot of resistance from various stakeholders because of the complexity of running a national airline. Obviously, some of the issues have had to do with is the strength of our economy and so on. I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister, when I asked the question in part (a), in relation to some of the issues that have been raised by experts, which include the fact that it seems the Zambian side is the one that is spending more. There have been arguments in terms of the aeroplanes, where there have also been assertions that we have aeroplanes in Russia being manufactured and so on. So, with that cocktail of issues, I was expecting that as the new Government, it would have gone into details to try and understand what has been going on.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also mention that I asked this question on 13^th October, 2021. So I am actually quite disappointed that it has come four days before 1^st December, 2021 because by that time, I am sure the Government would have had time to go through it.  Part (c) of the hon. Minister’s response talks about related issues. Could the hon. Minister mention some of the related issues he was referring to?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, in answering the question by the hon. Member for Kantanshi, let me hasten to state here that, first of all, my Administration has to grapple with the Zambia/Ethiopia deal, a deal that was crafted by the previous Administration. It may appear at face value …

 

Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Tayali: … that the Zambian side is having to –

 

Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Go ahead.

 

Hammer, hammer!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member, can the hon. Minister just continue. We will come back to you later.

 

Hon. Minister, you can continue.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, thank you for your protection. It may appear that the Zambian side would have been spending more but suffice it to say that out of the US$30 million that the contract was brought into fruition, US$16.5 million was to be spent by the Zambian Government, through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC). The Ethiopian Airlines was going to spend US13.5 million, much of which expenditure was to go to repayments of leasing of the aircraft, which period we envisage would last about four years, by which time, it is envisaged that the airline would have gotten sufficient traction to be able to pick up, in terms of its balance sheet.

 

Madam Speaker, I would be at pains to go into more details as to what the previous administration was doing in terms of trying to establish the national airline. Yes, there are issues of four aircrafts that were procured by the previous Administration and they are believed to be in Russia. My Administration is trying to establish exactly what the previous Administration was trying to do because there were actually, three separate entities that had been established to try and come up with the national airline.

 

Madam Speaker, perhaps at this juncture I may not want to divulge further information as investigations are still under way to establish exactly whether or not this was a conduit of corruption. To avoid getting into issues that may be bordering on security, I beg to submit.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I want to guide hon. Members that there is no such a thing like ‘point of procedure’. We do not have such a thing in our Standing Orders. What we have is ‘point of order’ or ‘a matter of urgent public importance’ at the appropriate time.

 

I hope the hon. Member for Pambashe has a point of order, if so, he can go ahead to raise it.

                                                                                                    

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I was at pains to hear the hon. Minister referring to the Government as “My Administration.” I thought in Zambia, we had President Hichilema’s Administration. So, does it mean we have an hon. Minister who is running his Administration in Zambia?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Chitotela: So, if my ears were misleading, we can refer to the Hansard, where the hon. Minister keeps referring to the Government as “My Administration.” So, I was in pain thinking that the 2.8 million Zambians voted for one person who is the President of Zambia, but how come the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics is saying that he is running this Administration?

 

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you forgot to cite the Standing Order that has been breached for us to make a ruling.

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, is it Standing Order No. 75 or 65 that talks about other matter?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, it is Standing Orders No. 65 that says in any other matter that is not provided for in the Standing Order the Speaker can rule and guide. So I was getting concerned because the hon. Minister repeated the phrase “My Administration” more than three times. So, I was wondering if we now have two Presidents in Zambia.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, thank you for that point of order. Like I was saying, it is not backed by the correct Standing Order. However, I think the hon. Minister has taken note of that.

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I am grateful that the hon. Minister is giving answers though, some of them are not satisfactory. There is a lot that is being talked about this airline and it has been promised that it will take off on 1^st December, 2021. Many commentators especially, experts in the aviation industry, have made mention that this is a loss making venture. In his answers, the hon. Minister has ably put it that his ministry is reviewing the contracts and other signed documents towards this take-off.

 

Madam Speaker, the take-off is on 1^st December, 2021, and today is 26^th November. Are they going to manage to relook at all the documents he has mentioned in here before take-off or it will be an ongoing process as they manage the airline?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member was indeed paying attention, he could have noted that I did state that the principle shareholders agreement is not going altered at all. In part (c) of the hon. Member for Kantanshi’s question, I did equally state that the Government through The Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), will ensure that all related issues are resolved before the launch on 1^st December, 2021.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last two questions from the hon. Members for Kasenengwa and Bwana Mkubwa Constituencies.

 

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, the Zambian Government has entered into a contract with one of the best performing airlines in Africa, the Ethiopian Airlines which flies almost everywhere in Africa and most parts of the world.

 

Madam, we have heard from the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, unless I did not hear him clearly, that they have not come up with any negotiations or strategies, like hon. Lusambo had put it, with regards to the operations of the Zambian Airways. Now, we have four days before we start operations. What strategies has the New Dawn Government put in place to make sure that the Zambian Airways, which has gone into a contract with an airline which flies everywhere in Africa, has a fair share of African destinations, so that they do not seem to conflict or scramble for destination with a competitor? I want the hon. Minister to shed more light on that one.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, firstly, let me state that before one can run, surely one has to crawl and walk. This airline is initially going to focus on domestic roads before we can talk about competing with well-established airlines like the Ethiopian Airlines. I am sure the hon. Member is aware that the operational aspects of operating an airline will basically be the responsibility of the board, which has in fact put strategies in place to be able to afford this new airline an opportunity to survive.

 

Madam Speaker, its maiden flight is scheduled to be on 1^st December, 2021, and it shall be between Ndola and Livingstone. So, all this Government can do is to try and ensure that we support the airline through its board to ensure that as we re-establish our flag carrier, we are given the necessary support to be able to grow domestically, and eventually, take to the regional routes.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Bwana Mkubwa to ask a question to hon. Minister, my brother, who is also my neighbour. If the hon. Minister looked at the contract and that his technocrats, who are the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and other aviation directors briefed him over the same, does he find the contract viable? As a country, are we going to benefit if we go ahead with the same contract?  I think it is important that he highlights the benefits to this House so that we know the position of the Government. I am sure by now, they have done the analysis and they understand the contract. So, what are the benefits of this contract to the Zambian people?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for that follow-up from my brother, the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa. Let me just simply state that it is good for a country that lost the defunct Zambia Airways to try and realise its dream of having a flag carrier. It is a potentially fair deal for an airline that has leased aircrafts and further, sub-leased them to this country with a view that eventually, we would be able to purchase those aircrafts and have them as our own.

 

Madam Speaker, like I stated, this is obviously a company that was well-established in 2014. It is the New Dawn Administration’s hope that having carefully looked at the agreement, it shall re-look certain aspects to ensure that Zambia is not disadvantaged. That is all I can say for now.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

_______

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

VOTE 35 – (Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development – K414,545,548)

 

(Consideration resumed)

 

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to present the 2022 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me begin by commending the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the well-thought-out 2022 Budget aimed at transforming the economy. My ministry, being one of the key economic sectors, is no doubt important to achieve the goal of the 2022 Budget, whose theme is “Growth, Jobs and Taking Development Closer to the People.” From the theme, it is clear that the New Dawn Government means business in as far as transforming the economy is concerned.

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry was established in September, 2021, by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, and was subsequently ratified by Parliament. Its main focus is to promote small and medium enterprise development in order to create jobs and enhance wealth creation across the country.

 

Functions of the Ministry

 

Mr Chairperson, the functions of the ministry as indicated in the Gazette Notice No. 1123 are as follows:

 

1. co-operative development;
2. small and medium enterprise incubation;
3. small and medium enterprise mentorship;
4. loans, incentives and credit schemes;
5. small and medium enterprise policy; and
6. medium scale enterprise development.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development was established to realise potential of Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) to contribute to job creation and economic development of the country. Currently, there are a number of problems affecting the growth of SMEs, and these include:

 

1. limited access to finance;
2. high cost of establishing a business;
3. limited access to market mainly due to uncompetitive products;
4. lack of business skills; and
5. unfavourable policy environment.

 

Mr Chairperson, as a result of these problems, the majority of micro and small enterprises in Zambia are in the informal sector. For those in the formal sector, the rate of growth from one level to the next is very slow or not there at all. In this regard, to unlock the potential of SMEs to create decent jobs and take development to all parts of the country, my ministry will, in 2022 focus on the following:

 

1. improve the policy and legal framework for co-operatives and SMEs;
2. formalise informal enterprises;
3. improve the provision of business development services to SMEs and co-operatives, which will lead to:

 

1. increased market access;

 

1. formation and knowledge; and

 

1. improved access to equipment and appropriate financing.

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has been allocated a budget of K414,545,548. This includes the empowerment fund managed by the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) of K350 million. With this budget, my ministry targets to achieve the following:

 

1. review the policy and legal framework for the SME sector. The ministry will focus on finalising the review of the 2010 to 2020 Micro, Small and Medium Enterprise Policy, and amendment of the Citizens Empowerment Economic Commission Act of 2006, and the Co-operative Society Act of 1998;
2. commence the process or formulation and capacity building of at least 200,000 SMEs and co-operatives;
3. link enterprises to financiers;
4. enhance the capacity of the Co-operative College to be able to provide skills for different co-operatives; and
5. facilitate rural SMEs and co-operatives access to empowerment funds, including the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

 

Mr Chairperson, therefore, my ministry will implement the following programmes:

 

1. co-operatives development and management;
2. SME development;
3. SME empowerment; and
4. management and support services.

 

Mr Chairperson, the development of SMEs is the way to develop the country. Zambia has for a long time, recognised the importance of the SME sector and its potential to contribute to economic development. However, interventions by the previous Government are focused on financial assistance particularly, to start-ups.

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through this Budget, is proposing a change in the approach. The Government’s approach is changing from the traditional way to a holistic approach where the SMEs across the country will be met with content specific interventions. The historical approach will involve undertaking practical policy, legal and institutional reforms in order to address the challenges of the SMEs in line with the aspirations of the New Dawn Government. My ministry will also ensure that interventions to develop SMEs are implemented in a co-ordinated manner to avoid duplication of efforts. In the valuation of the impact of interventions and monitoring of growth, SMEs will be emphasised.

 

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I appeal to the hon. Members of this House to support the ministry’s Budget estimates as this will support the Government’s effort to reduce poverty and develop the country. The New Dawn Government needs the co-operation and support of all stakeholders to succeed in developing SMEs and the backbone of our economy in the near future. I assure the House that the Government is committed to ensuring the growth of SMEs in the manner that will create descent jobs and take development to all parts of the country.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.         

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I am happy that today, I have been given an opportunity to contribute to the Head relating to the Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs).

 

Mr Chairperson, I followed the policy statement presented by the hon. Minister in charge of SMEs, and I have a few suggestions. I hope the hon. Minister will take into account proposals from the hon. Members from this side (left) of the House.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated that there are plans to review some policies such as the Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises Policy and to amend the Co-operative Societies Act of 1998 and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act of 2006. I, however, note that the hon. Minister did not refer to the Statutory Instrument (SI) No.1 of 2017, which deals with reserved schemes for Zambians. The hon. Minister is aware that in 2017, the Government issued an SI, which allowed certain specific businesses to be done by Zambians. There is an existing SI, which clearly shows that there was commitment in terms of legislation to allow certain businesses to be done by Zambians.

 

Mr Chairperson, in my opinion, this scheme should be expanded because the definition of what should be done by a Zambian is already indicated. So, we need to expand and identify any other businesses that we feel should be done by Zambians. I am sure the Ministry of Justice will be able to guide on what should be done to this SI if we replace with a new SI, which will cover more businesses. So, the first proposal I want to make is for the ministry to expand the Statutory Instrument No.1 of 2017, which is to include more reserved schemes for Zambians.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister is aware that the Government adopted a policy on local economic development. I am sure all local authorities in Zambia have been given guidelines on how to manage local economic development. Guidelines are already there.  Moving forward, it will be necessary for the hon. Minister to organise a meeting or workshop that will bring different players together, so that in terms of legislation, the Government can go a step further to ensure that the laws speak to each other.

 

Mr Chairperson, one of the challenges is that our colleagues at the Patent and Company Registration Agency (PACRA) want to register companies so that business can start. There are local authorities responsible for licensing businesses, but regulations may not speak to each other. As a result, we would want certain businesses to be done by Zambians, but only to be told that a regulation at the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), cannot allow us to prevent certain businesses from being done by foreigners. So, it will be necessary for the hon. Minister as he commences his duties, to quickly plan an activity to harmonise the regulations so that at the end of the day, we all agree to what should be done to ensure that Zambians participate in the small and medium enterprise sector that the Government is supporting.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development is aware that the Government secured a loan from the African Development Bank (AfDB), to set up what are being called industrial yards. These yards are across all the ten provinces of Zambia and I recall that in Kitwe, we were privileged to have been considered at a time we needed ten industrial yards to be set up. Unfortunately, I think the operationalisation of these yards has not taken place at the right pace. So, the previous Government did its part and the infrastructure is standing and I am sure what remains now is for the ministry to guide further on how we are going to implement the running of these industrial yards. However, I did not hear the hon. Minister speak to how soon these yards will become operational and also, if there are plans to set up more yards.  I do not think the yards that have been built are enough to respond to the unemployment levels in the country.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure the hon. Minister has been briefed by now that the previous Government came up with what is called the Industrialisation and Job Creation Strategy, which was launched by the then Republican Vice-President, Dr Guy Scott. It spelt out how the Government intends to create jobs and SMEs were identified as one of the strategies that would be used to create jobs for Zambians. I did not hear the hon. Minister speak to how these existing plans will fit into the plans of the new Government in ensuring that our young people get employed.

Mr Chairperson, in short, further to what the hon. Minster has identified as strategies, it would be necessary that he factors in some of the suggestions that have been laid before him.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank the new Government for coming up with such a ministry because looking at our population, I think most of our brothers and sisters who are doing business are in that category. We are all alive to the fact that China and other economies have been boosted by Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs), which we need to focus on as a developing nation. However, most of our brothers and sisters in this country, who are involved in business, need to be empowered through this ministry and I have seen what has been allocated for empowerment.

 

 Mr Chairperson, on page 375 of the Yellow Book, K579,000 has been allocated for Finance Management – Audit. How is the ministry going to evaluate and monitor the empowerment funds with a little resource envelop like that? I am asking this question because the main challenge we have is monitoring. The empowerment programmes which were undertaken by the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts were in good faith, but monitoring was very bad, such that many people defaulted and ran away with the Government’s resources. So, it is important that a substantial amount is allocated for monitoring to ensure that the officers are equal to the task, monitor, evaluate and ensure that the Government empowers the people of Zambia, which is what it wants to achieve.

 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to lobby for our brothers and sisters who are physically challenged because most of the time, they are not considered. The ministry should help the people who are physically challenged. A case study is on our brothers and sisters in my constituency. We have Kang’onga, Fisenge and Kambowa Production Centres where there are physically challenged, but are very industrious young people. How will the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development empower them? It is important that they are given a portion, and it is managed accordingly because most of the time, they are left out from such empowerment programmes.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me comment on the back-to-back processes. Yes, we may empower the youths, but we have seen scenarios where they produce certain commodities and cannot access the market. What policy has the ministry put in place to ensure that our brothers and sisters who run SMEs have a back-to-back process? Yes, they can be mentored and empowered, but when they begin producing certain commodities, are we going to link them –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

(Debate resumed)

 

Mr Mwambazi: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that the ministry’s Budget has a line for Co-operative Development and Management, which is very important. However, it is also imperative that there is a deliberate policy to ensure that our brothers are taught on how to form these co-operatives.

 

Madam Speaker, the main question people from constituencies are asking, when one tells them that they have to be ready for the opportunity and that they have to register co-operatives, is how they will do it. Some of them do not know how co-operatives work and function. So, it is important that through that vote, there is a deliberate programme on how our brothers are going to be taught on how to register some of these co-operatives.

 

Sir, my elder brother from the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, will agree with me that these are some of the issues that the people of Bwana Mkubwa are aware of because co-operatives have not started today. We want to re-emphasise that our people should be given first priority in these constituencies.

 

Madam Speaker, further, in terms of policy formulation, we have seen how the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), has failed the Zambian people, for example, the selection of would-be beneficiaries. We want that policy reviewed to ensure that the Zambian people benefit and not a particular clique of cadres who will fail in turn, to pay back those loans as most of these are going to be revolving funds.

 

Sir, when one presents a business case and it is reviewed, and that person is given the empowerment, he or she needs to work for it. The culture we have in this country is that when the Government gives empowerment to the youths or other people, it is considered to be free and it needs to be ‘eaten’. We need to desist from such a mentality and ensure that we help the Government, moving forward.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me also comment on the issue of the Statutory Instrument (SI), which Hon. Kang’ombe commented on. It is important that we safeguard local businesses. It is important that we have a market for certain businesses which are done by locals. We cannot have foreigners rearing chickens and selling blocks. Those are some of the small things our locals can do.

 

Madam Speaker, in my constituency, I have empowered youths with block making machines and they are doing well. They have small co-operatives. Why can we not give them more work? If we are constructing a 1 x 3 classroom block, we can give the same youths to supply the blocks, but we would rather go and buy from Mei Mei Ltd. Those businesses can be done by local people.

 

Sir, I wish to re-emphasise that the ministry looks at how it can make this policy effective to ensure so that our local people are protected and benefit from this Government.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me rest my case.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson gave the Floor to Mr Wamunyima.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Wamunyima is unavailable.

 

The Deputy Chairperson gave the Floor to Mr Fube.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Fube is not here. Mr Mumba may take the Floor.

 

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, as I rise to support the Vote for the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. I would also like to join many others who have congratulated the hon. Minister. I think that even in his presentation, one could feel the passion that he has for small businesses.

 

Sir, the coming-in of this ministry will respond to the challenges of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) from different sectors. Currently, it is the small businesses that lubricate the economy for it to get out of recession.

 

Mr Chairperson, one of the key problems of SMEs is the lack of capital. We have different individuals who are doing all sorts of things in various sectors but at a small-scale level. I think we should identify the fact that if this ministry is going to post success stories, we need to deal with the issue of capital.

 

Mr Chairperson, clearly, the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), with all its intentions, has failed to actually create that impact that we all had anticipated. For this ministry to function, it is my considered belief that, first of all, the money should be kept in the bank.

 

Sir, Hon. Mwambazi said that every time the Government empowers Zambians or the youth, this money should be considered as free money. I am proposing that they create a relationship with our bank, the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ). A specific department can be created which could be speaking to the ministry. This way, even certain activities that banks carry out, like the invoice discounting and trade finance, which are key components even when it comes to SMEs which are in the road sector, those that do routine maintenance works, can be used. One of the key things that these small-scale contractors struggle with, even after getting contracts from the Government or sub-contracting is financing. The Government may not always have money, but there are various options available in business, which banks carry out.

 

Mr Chairperson, in private banks, for example, if one has a payment that has not yet been honoured, whether it is from the mining or tourism sector, one may present it to the bank with a catalogue of all the information it needs but we can make it simple through the DBZ. That could help us grow some of these businesses.

 

Sir, yesterday, I wondered why a bar of soap should be moved from Lusaka to Mansa or Kwa Nabwalya when we could have small businesses through small manufacturing equipment, similar to what we did with co-operatives, in trying to reduce the cost of mealie-meal by creating those solar milling plants. Although they are not being positively used, they could have had an impact in most communities to reduce the cost of mealie-meal. Their survival was going to be on the fact that the by-product of producing mealie-meal would be fish feed. So, the co-operatives would have also been growing.

 

Mr Chairperson, beyond the parks that were talked about by previous hon. Members of Parliament, we need the ministry to also look at smaller equipment that will be able to produce cooking oil and peanut butter. There is no need for our people to wait for products to come from abroad.

 

Sir, the other thing that I would like to mention is that, on this scatter of funds where the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development have funds, and the Government has also got another area where there are funds, I think it is important that under this ministry, funds are put together so that they are able to have a better impact. Therefore, even the monitoring and evaluation of these funds will be central as opposed to a situation where, we find that there was a funding programme which had to do with tipper trucks or whatever in the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts.

 

Sir, their ministry is supposed to clean up all this and put us in the right direction for us to follow exactly what is happening. We want their ministry to consider introducing awards for the best performing businesses at the end of the year so that people can become more enlightened about the activities of this ministry.

 

Mr Chairperson, even as we continue to produce graduates out there, there are people who have business ideas but have no support. There is need for training and workshops so that our people move in tandem with what the Government is trying to produce. We are trying to achieve things like creating wealth, reducing unemployment and enabling people to contribute to our economy through taxes and indeed, just for them to live the dreams of their lives through the aspirations of the Government.

 

Mr Chairperson, I think, for now, I will end here and allow my colleagues to also contribute.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I want to make an announcement that Mr Mufalali will be the last speaker and then after him, the hon. Minister will wind up debate.

 

Mr Mufalali (Nominated): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, who has indicated a very good policy direction. He also referred to His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema address to this House as a core business. The President indicated that we will need to do things the right way, and this ministry is one of those areas where the President wants to do things the right way.

 

Sir, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development is a ministry that is meant to work hand in hand with other ministries. We have a President who wants to see this country move from a Third World country to a First World country, just like any of those countries which had serious leaders did. He wants to ensure that this country moves ahead.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I support the hon. Minister’s Budget allocation and his policy direction, I want to indicate that we are moving from a situation where it was not easy to do business. According to the Ease of Doing Business Index (EDBI), we were rated very low. This ministry is one of those areas that will help us to raise the bar of doing business and make it easy for our citizens to have access to finance, markets and a legal framework that is in tandem with the policy pronouncements.

 

Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Minister looks at the way the Budget has been presented, he will agree with me that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning indicated that he wants to finance the youth, women, and the disabled. All these groups come right into the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, where they will be able to do business.

 

Mr Chairperson, our President, President Hakainde Hichilema, has been up and down to many parts of the world, not in vain. I have in mind the trip to Glasgow, Scotland, for the United Nations Climate Change Conference of the Parties (COP26) meeting.

 

The hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprises Development will realise that under the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment has a bearing on his ministry. In there, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises Development stands to benefit because the green bonds that are likely to come from the Ministry of Green Economy and Development are able to benefit the youths, the disabled, and women.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mufalali: One thing this Government is doing is not business as usual. It is that arrangement where issues speak to each other.

 

Mr Chairperson, when our hon. Colleagues on the left were talking, they were saying that the Budget which this ministry has been allocated is small. It is not small but quite enough. I am saying so because from the green bonds from the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development stands to benefit because these ministries speak to each other and are well-structured. That is why I am saying that the President of the Republic of Zambia, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the rest of the Cabinet are good to go. They are ready to work for the Zambian people in order to move this country from a Third World country to a First World country. It has been done before.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated here that he wants to improve access to markets. We are not only going to have our people remain stagnant small and medium enterprises. We want to graduate them and that is the whole idea. The finances will come through because the green economy is there to support this ministry. Out of the support from the green economy is where the free money is. They managed to secure about £1.2 billion out of most of the money. Now, if the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development structures a business plan that is so good, the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment will be able to come and feed into it and help these youth, women, and the disabled to create businesses that are able to stand the test of time.

 

Mr Chairperson, one of the things that the hon. Minister indicated was to ensure that the ministry has stable policies. Unfortunately, where we are coming from, there was inconsistency in the policies. I agree with the hon. Minister when he says that he wants to put up stable policies that will stand the test of time.

 

Mr Chairperson, where we are coming from, a pronouncement would be made at 1000 hours and changed at 1500 hours. That was inconsistency. If you look at the audit on policy inconsistencies, you will realise that the former Government changed policies over eighty-five times. Sometimes policies changed four times in a day. That is not good for business. So, to create a conducive environment to do business, people really need a stable policy. I agree with the hon. Minister when he says that we need to create stable policies and a legal framework that speaks to what we want to fulfil. That is very good and is supported.

 

Mr Chairperson, the markets that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation and the President have been going round to secure are very good for our people. Right now, if we work very well and ensure that this money is invested in the youth, women, and the disabled, we will realise that what they will produce will need market out there. We will need a market in Angola. Angola needs about 10 million chickens, a lot of beef and eggs.

 

Mr Chairperson, it is from these small markets that they can create co-operatives that will be able to work towards one common market and a centre where they can deliver those products. They will be able to export those products as a unit or as a co-operative to Angola which needs or yearns for many chickens. We cannot continue having chickens imported from Brazil into Angola when we can create a market for our chickens in Angola. It is a good thing that today, we have the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development specifically meant to ensure that our businesses, young people, the disabled and women grow to an extent of building this economy and getting the foreign exchange that we really need in this country.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to say a few things about this ministry, which is working hard to ensure that poverty levels are reduced. We have seen poverty levels increase like never before. This Government means well when it created this ministry that speaks to other ministries such as the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, and the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources. All these ministries speak to each other. It is not that arrangement which we saw before where people were just doing things anyhow. We saw things like in the morning your farm is taken and tomorrow cadres take over and start sharing. No! Order has come back, and it is out of order that we have the real business for this country for our children, youths, women and the disabled.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mubanga: Mr Chairperson, time for handouts from all the hon. Members in this House is gone. When we get to our constituencies, we need to help our young people to follow what the Government policy is emphasising.

 

Mr Chairperson, I want to quickly respond to the issue regarding the expansion of Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 27 which the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa talked about. Yes, very soon, the hon. Minister will come to the House and address that. We will make sure that some types of businesses are strictly for Zambians.

 

Mr Chairperson, regarding the Citizens Economic Empowerment Corporation (CEEC) industrial yard, in the previous Government, it was under the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry but it is now under the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. We are looking into that as we want those industrial yards to quickly start functioning.

 

Mr Chairperson, on job creation, I have mentioned that there is a policy direction. We are in charge to make sure that we create jobs for our people. The hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa raised the issue regarding money for monitoring and audit. In the Yellow Book, there is money allocated to the CEEC that is meant for monitoring the projects and making sure that our Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) have been audited. The figure the hon. Member mentioned is just for the officers in the ministry.

 

Mr Chairperson, we are concerned about the physically challenged people. We will make sure that they are part and parcel of what the Government is doing. With regards to access to markets, I mentioned in my speech that we are here to try and create market for our people. Our people are the owners of this country and they must enjoy this market in here. As for the co-operatives formulation, we have a director who will be able to guide on how our young people should be able to form co-operatives. They should come to the ministry. We know what has been going on concerning the CEEC Policy. When I studied that, the first thing I did as Minister was to dissolve the board and we are looking into the management of the CEEC.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

VOTE 35 – (Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development – K414,545,548)

 

Mr Fube: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on page 375, Table 3: Budget Allocation by Programme and Sub-Programme:

 

Under Programme 2151: Small and Medium Enterprise Empowerment: 0006 Enterprise and Economic Empowerment Fund, by the deletion of K365,210,867 and the substitution therefor of K571,104,422.

 

Mr Chairperson, the amendment that is loafing involves the one on enterprise development, which I feel is the largest portion of the proposed Budget. If my memory serves me right, it is supposed to be about K360 million. The amendment was supposed to be effected from the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. If you look at the allocation from the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Vote that is circulated in the amendment, you will see that there is duplication. What was proposed is that the amount from the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry should be taken to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development for the same purposes that I am about to mention.

 

Mr Chairperson, when you look at the largest portion of the K415 million plus of the allocation to the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, you will see that the largest portion goes to that fund which develops co-operatives into businesses. When we look at the current economic environment in Zambia, we see that much of it is driven by the private sector. In the private sector, much of the Zambian participation window is the informal sector. Among other problems that we are facing are low participation of Zambians in the manufacturing industry, international business and trade, high cost of doing business, large volumes of imported goods, limited financing for local businesses, and poor management of Government empowerment funds, among other things.

 

Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister was addressing the issue of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) – Let me remind the House that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act No. 9 of 2006 was attended to in the last Parliament. So, it provided an environment in which Zambian businesses – The key word in that amendment is that Zambian businesses should be Zambia-centred. Apart from them being Zambia-centred, there must be appropriate tax breaks to allow Zambian companies to be competitive. This also means access to credit and financing of the Zambians. Therefore, if the New Dawn Government, with the creation of the Ministry Small and Medium Enterprise Development means well, the way to venture is to increase the volume of that particular Vote that I proposed, ...

 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Fube: Mr Chairperson, can I continue?

 

The Deputy Chairperson: You can continue.

 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: The decision to grant or not allow a point of order is at my discretion, Hon. Mufalali. So, let the hon. Member continue.

 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, we seek your guidance. A point of order on the same –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I did not allow the point of order.

 

Mr Fube: This is the gentleman who was just on the Floor and he did not do his part.

 

Mr Chairperson, the proposal to shift that particular Vote to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development was well-meant and in good spirit. This is because if you observed the environment, in the past Government, we saw discrimination of things like block making and raring of chickens. They were left to Zambians although the implementation is yet to be done.

 

Mr Chairperson, when you look at where some people are having income through chain stores, what we have currently is dominated by Foreign Direct Investment (FDI). I cannot start mentioning the shops that are interacting in this area. So, that particular fund is supposed to create captains of the industry that will compete favourably with the people who are coming through the FDI window. The increase in the money that is supposed to be shifted from the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development is well-placed especially that it is meant to boost the Zambian capital injection in different sectors like the manufacturing and tourism sectors, and the extraction of small-scale mining or artisanal works. That is what I meant.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mubanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member who has just brought the amendment –

 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Chitotela: On the hon. Minister?

 

Mr Mufalali: No, on procedure on what is going on here.

 

Mr Mubanga: Mr Chairperson, my ministry has not received anything in writing direct to my ministry. I will need your guidance there, Sir.

 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is not here.

 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: The Government Chief Whip.

 

The Chief Whip (Mr Mulusa): Mr Chairperson, we have not seen the circulation. If it is something that happened yesterday, I think it was negated.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Chief Whip, the amendment had been circulated to all the hon. Members.

 

Mr Mufalali: That is why I wanted to raise the point of order; we have not seen the circulation.

 

Interruptions

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Question that Vote 33 be amended put and negatived.

 

Vote 35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Point of order, over ruled.

 

Mr Fube: Anyway –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us make progress.

 

VOTE 76 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts  –  K119,392,178)

 

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present to this august House the ministry’s Budget policy statement in support of the 2022 Budget Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Art.

 

Mr Chairperson, before I proceed to present the estimates for 2022, allow me to state that just like the previous year, 2021, has been greatly challenged due to the outbreak of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. You may wish to note that since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic and its health guidelines, the ministry has struggled to implement all its planned programmes and activities, starting from the fourth quarter of 2020 to the third quarter of 2021. Indeed, let me inform the august that the youth sportsmen and artists have not been spared from the negative effects of the pandemic such as loss of employment and businesses.

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has continued to promote mindset change, innovation and entrepreneurship in the implementation of youth empowerment programmes.

 

Mr Chairperson, the allocation of K32,288,783.90 towards youth empowerment in the 2022 Budget, demonstrates the Government’s commitment to empowering the youth in order for them to participate in the socio-economic activities and development agenda of the country.

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is now in charge of arts development and management and this is resulting from the realignment of the ministry and the movement of the child development portfolio to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, following the pronouncement by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, and the ratification by Parliament. In accordance with the Government Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021, the ministry is responsible for the following:

 

1. co-ordination of the youth policy, youth organisations, entrepreneurship and skills development;
2. co-ordination of sports policy, organisations and development; and
3. co-ordination of arts, cinematography and theatres and cinema policies, arts centres, film censorship, visual and performing arts and research in arts.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry operates under the mission to promote child development, youth empowerment, and champions in sport and healthy citizens. Therefore, my ministry will continue to provide leadership and policy guidance in implementing its mandate of promoting youth, sport and arts development.

 

Progress Made On the 2021 Programme Implementation

 

Mr Chairperson, during the year under review, my ministry focused on implementing programmes under youth development, sport development and management, child welfare and development and management and support services. To actualise the implementation of these programmes, my ministry had an approved Budget of K181,780,411. Out of this Budget, K14,357,952 was for personnel emoluments and K153,045,819 was for Recurrent Developmental Charges (RDCs).

 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that as at 30^th September, 2020, over K15,436,939.81 of the RDCs had been disbursed. Further, the ministry received K470 million through the Excess Expenditure Warrant No. 2 of 2020, earmarked for the implementation of multi-sectoral youth empowerment programmes with a target of empowering 150,000 youths.

 

Mr Chairperson, the following achievements were recorded as of 30^th September, 2021.

 

Youth Development

 

Mr Chairperson, all empowerment funds and equipment disbursed by the ministry are on loan basis for a period of thirty-six months and has a grace period of three months from the day the loan was disbursed.

 

Sport Development and Management

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry implemented three sub-programmes under the sports development and management programme namely, sport development, regional and international games, and sport management.

 

Mr Chairperson, under sports development, the ministry continued to implement the Podium Performance Programme (PPP) which is a programme aimed at enhancing the performance of national top athletes by facilitating development of specialised skills among high performing athletes who represent the country at international competitions to reap medals.

 

Mr Chairperson, through this programme, the ministry was able to provide residential and non-residential training for the athletes and coaches who were bound for the Tokyo Olympic/Paralympics games. Some other achievements under this programme included sponsoring of athletics all comers, judo trip to the African Championship in Senegal, boxing tournament in Ndola, boxing camp in Botswana, stipends of the coaches and athletes, medical supplies and repayment of the Olympic Youth Development Centre (OYDC) debt.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry also managed to facilitate the participation of sixty athletes in the National Olympics Committee to travel to the 2021 Tokyo Olympic Games. Allow me to emphasise that implementation of programmes under sports development were immensely affected due to the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic.

 

Sir, allow me to emphasise that implementation of programmes under sport development were immensely affected due to the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic.

 

Mr Chairperson, further to this, in order to facilitate sport development at community level, the ministry launched the distribution of sport equipment to 120 constituencies in the country. The equipment distributed included five sets of football jerseys, four sets of netball jerseys, three sets of footballs, three sets of netballs and two sets of trophies.

 

Child Welfare Development

 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to also report on the work that my ministry had under taken during the year under review on child welfare development programme. My ministry had implemented two programmes, namely Child Welfare and Child Development.

 

Sir, the ministry developed the Child Exit Strategy for the youth undergoing training, under the memorandum of understanding (MoU) between the Ministry and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to provide skills training to young men and women living in the streets. The overall objective of the training was to facilitate the placement of trained youths in both formal and informal sectors. Further, the exit strategy will provide a tracer tool that will enable ministry document the success and failures of the project.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, with support from Save the Children International printed 500 copies of District Child Protection Committee (DCPC) terms of reference and 5,000 copies of the National Coordinating Committee for Children (NCCC). The terms of reference are meant to guide the role of each stakeholder on matters affecting children, with the department of child being the leading institution. The copies have since been distributed to various stakeholders.

 

Sir, allow me also to stress that the resources distributed under the Arts Empowerment and Development Scheme are revolving funds which need to be paid back by the beneficiaries. This credit facility is supposed to be paid back within thirty-six months, as I said, from the day the loan was disbursed and contract forms signed.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me now turn to the 2022 Budget estimates. My ministry has a proposed Budget ceiling of K119,392,181, which is a decrease compared to K181,780,471 appropriated by Parliament in 2021. This allocation represents a decrease of 7.9 per cent from the 2021 Budget allocation for the ministry. Out of this amount, the ministry is proposing the following apportionments:

 

1. K55,766,001.45, for Youth Development;
2. K7,307,766.05, for Arts Development and Management;
3. K37,192,062, For Sport Development and Management; and
4. K19,126,351.24, for Management and Support Services.

 

Sir, the above stated programmes will be implemented as follow:

 

Youth Development

 

The Government believes that there is need to adequately invest in the youth in order for the country to benefit from the demographic dividend of the youth population. Thirty-five per cent of Zambia’s population accounts for the youth who have the potential to contribute towards national development with the right empowerment. To this end, there is a proposal of K55,766,001.45 to facilitate the implementation of three youth development sub-programmes, namely Youth Skills Development, Youth Empowerment and Infrastructure development.

 

Youth Skills Development

 

 Mr Chairperson, under this sub-programme, there is an allocation of K7,825,445.55 of which K7,614,517, will be provided as grants to youth resource centres. The remaining money will be used to undertake inspections of the skills training programmes in the youth resource centres. The youth resource centres provide skills training to youths who are out of school and those who have never been to school. In this regard, the ministry currently has twenty-four youth resource centres.

 

Infrastructure Development

 

 Mr Chairperson, the ministry proposes an allocation of K15, 651,772 for various inspections and construction activities under youth resource centres around the country.

 

Sports Development

 

Mr Chairperson, there is a K11,679,337.30 in sports development out of which, K6,932,141 is proposed to facilitate the provision of grants to various sport grant-aided institutions for the development of sport in the country.

 

Mr Chairperson –

 

Mr Chairperson: Order!

 

The Hon. Minister’s time expired.

 

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for that policy statement. Indeed, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts remains a critical ministry considering the fact that the New Dawn Government was elected on the promise of a better future for the youth.

 

Sir, I note in the hon. Minister’s policy statement that there is no aspect of monitoring and evaluation of youth programmes. There is a situation in this country where the beneficiaries of the youth skills development programmes end up being political cadres who do not fall in the age bracket of youths. It is important that there is proper monitoring and evaluation in the implementation of youth development programmes to avoid a situation where we have beneficiaries who are above thirty-five years because those are not youths.

 

Mr Chairperson, I also take note that there has been a reduction in the allocation of funds. However, the primary focus I would also like to draw your attention to is the development of other sports such as volleyball, netball and golf.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts in preceding Governments has mainly focused on football. This has been highly retrogressive because football is not the only sport. I also want to advance my concern that even in football itself, there has not been equitable participation of youths from all the ten provinces. If you look at the league or the youthful football participation in Southern and Western Provinces, you would see a lot of inequalities.

 

Sir, I would also like to advance that there has been various arguments on what is really defined as a youth. I think the ministry must also look at giving it a statutory definition other than just a national youth policy definition. Mr Chairperson, in this context, I submit.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Malambo (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for this opportunity for the people of Magoye to be heard on this estimate of expenditure. I am just concerned on one or two things related to the youth development. If you have seen on the youth development, there is an allocation of K11,677,747. This money is specifically for youth development.

 

 Sir, if the hon. Minister looks at the skill generation in the youth and things that are related to football, he will note that skills in football games in Zambia have gone down, more especially at international level. This is because we have failed to develop soccer from the grassroots.

Mr Chairperson, I want to tell the hon. Minister that most of the players that are in the national team, if he has seen in the recent past, are those who are brought up in the urban areas. We are failing to tap talent from the rural areas. This is the reason I stood here to indicate to the hon. Minister that there should be a deliberate programme to help develop soccer in rural areas, to ensure that we tap the natural talent there. I can assure the hon. Minister that we can have the “Kalusha Bwalya” of this world in this new generation from those people who I see playing football every day.

 

Mr Chairperson, on infrastructure development, I have seen that we have not allocated anything. If the hon. Minister has seen, we only have two stadia of international standard but there was a proposal by the previous Government that there will be a stadium in every province. I do not know where that has gone. I want to appeal through the hon. Minister that in the next Budget, he should consider putting different stadia in those provinces to encourage football participation. At least, when the games are being played like in Choma or Livingstone, those local people there will be able to watch and get interested to develop or allow their children to play soccer because soccer is a business. We have seen a good number of people in every country like Brazil, where children are developed from childhood to play soccer and soccer has become a serious business which is generating a lot of resources for their country. I just wanted to make sure that that issue is heard.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving the people of Lundazi an opportunity to speak. I take keen interest because I know that tomorrow, we will not be here but the children whom we are raising are going to be here. I want to talk about zero allocation to infrastructure. It is painful that there is nothing that has been allocated to infrastructure development. I come from Lundazi and I have many youths who play football and netball. They do not even have goal posts or nets. If there is nothing that has been allocated, it is really bad. The hon. Minister may need to look at it.

 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to urge the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts to look at behaviour change amongst our youths. In a rural constituency where I am coming from, many youths have resorted to drinking beer, which is really killing our Presidents for tomorrow. The youths can divert their attention of abusing and taking advantage of themselves if this vice is overtaken by football. The hon. Minister may need to also look at developing sports in schools. It used to help a lot when we used to have inter-school competition because a lot of talent was able to develop in that area.

 

Mr Chairperson, the other thing that I want to talk about is on the 150,000 youths to be empowered, which the hon. Minister mentioned. I wish this can be done from every constituency to know what would be the allocation for the 150,000 youths that are going to be empowered. I hope this is going to be done equally and fairly so that my people in Lundazi and other districts can also benefit.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the Head on the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. This is an extremely important ministry although it is not fully appreciated. This is a ministry that has the mandate to grow the potential in our youths. Like a colleague who debated before me has already indicated, predominantly, this ministry has been understood to be a Ministry of Football when in fact, there is a lot of potential that we have in sports like golf, rugby, athletics, crickets, netball and many other sporting disciplines.

 

Mr Chairperson, the development of sports in this country is sometimes hampered by this not so clear, line of responsibility. All our sports codes in this country belong to some international sporting organisations or federations. Many of them hide their incompetence to manage our sports under the cover of the International Federation Regulations for the associations that they belong to. I think it is high time that the Government made this a tripartite arrangement where there is the international federation of whatever sporting code it is, take for example, the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), and then there is the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) on one hand and there is the Government on the other hand so that the lines of accountability are very clear. It is not enough to simply cry for the Government interference when one is being called upon to account. These sporting disciplines require the Government to invest financial resources. When public resources are invested in these associations, it means that the nation needs to know what is being achieved.

 

Mr Chairperson, talking about football, we have been so pathetic at the football that we have embraced as our national sporting code in the recent past. The last time Zambia tasted victory was in 2012. From thereon, Zambians thought the next step would be the World Cup.  As fate would have it, we have even failed to qualify for the Africa Cup on the third occasion this time around. This is a matter that the hon. Minister must take note of. When a country fails to qualify for a major sporting association, people do not look at the management of that sporting association as the one that has failed. Rather, they should take it that the Government has failed. So, I think it is high time we brought in accountability in the management of these sporting associations.

 

Mr Chairperson, I will fail in my duties if I do not mention the Zambia Amateur Athletics Association (ZAAA). It is one example where there has been the same management for the past twenty years plus and yet, we are not going anywhere. The tag that the nation used to have of being a sporting nation has slowly but surely been lost. We are no longer competitive. We now see international athletes from countries like Botswana and South Africa minting gold at big sporting events whereas, we are just watching from the terraces. I think we need to do something about this.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me just devote a few minutes to talk about the issue of development of sporting facilities. The last time I checked in the Western Province, there is no single swimming pool and yet, the country wants to develop swimming as a sport. So, if we do not have these facilities, children might know how to swim but will not have an opportunity to do so. As the hon. Minister might know, in the Western Province, we actually learn how to swim as we live and play a lot in the rivers. Without the sporting facilities where the potential can actually be properly harnessed, there is no further development that can take place.

 

There are other aspects of football such as beach football and futsal, which can be developed through the provision of small sports facilities. We can develop academies such as the one I am pretty familiar with here in Lusaka, the Barca Academy, where my team actually participates. I am currently the top scorer for my team, a record yet to be beaten.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Anakoka: Mr Chairperson, if we replicate this model and develop academies in the provinces, we will easily develop football without necessarily investing billions in big stadia. Maybe, we should look at that model in order to quicken the provision of facilities in some provinces.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me briefly talk about arts. Normally, when it comes to youth development and arts, the only area where there seem to be potential is music, and I think that is a misnomer. There is a lot that our youths can do, which is covered under the umbrella of arts, but is not music. There is a need to put in place a deliberate policy to identify talent, especially in rural areas. We need to identify talent in our primary schools and secondary schools and bring it to the fore so that it can be exploited at the national level. This cannot be done if we do not have age-based competitions for various sport disciplines. As it is right now, football is the only sport discipline where there is some form of age based competitions and not netball, golf or rugby except if it is organised by individual clubs because there has been no investment in developing these sport disciplines. Therefore, I think an opportunity has come for this New Dawn Government to ensure that we take sports development to a level higher than it has never been before.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add the voice of Luena on this Vote.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Nkandu: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I thank the hon. Members who have contributed to this Vote. I have seen the passion that they have exhibited towards sport in this country and the youths at large. Having said that, let me answer to some issues that the hon. Members have raised.

 

Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that, yes, at one point, my ministry was to some extent called the Ministry of Football, but with the coming in of the New Dawn Government, I think things have started changing.  When we just came into office, there was an issue with the swimmers, which we promptly sorted out. The rugby team also needed to go to Namibia and there was an issue concerning the netballers, which we promptly sorted out. So, that really signifies the importance we attach to every sport discipline in the country, unlike our colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF), who just thought that football was everything. It is important for the citizens to know that that is not the approach that we will take.

 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Wamunyima, the Member for Nalolo, talked about policy. Our policy is that the youths are from eighteen to thirty-five years. So, that should be taken very seriously. Those above thirty-five are definitely not among the youths that the ministry is considering.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member also talked about the reduction in the allocation. He is aware that some of the functions of the ministry have been taken to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development and some of the empowerment programmes that it was undertaking have also been devolved. They have been taken to the constituencies, hence the reduction in the allocation. So, I thought I should be clear on that point.

 

Mr Chairperson, I want to stress that, whether we like it or not, football in Zambia is a religion. So, we should not lie to ourselves that we should allocate equitable amounts to football, swimming or boxing. However, as long as we give equitable allocations to sport disciplines, I think we are home and dry.

 

Mr Chairperson, in order to stop the immoral activities that my colleague, Hon. Nyirenda talked about, there is a programme in place where we are negotiating with our colleagues from the Ministry of Education to see how best we can implement it. I think this answer goes to Hon. Nyirenda and the hon. Member for Luena. We are negotiating with the Ministry of Education to see how best we can try to get back to the roots where we used to have competitions in every district. All the secondary schools in a certain district would come together and compete in different sport disciplines. However, we do not want this cross to be carried by the Ministry of Education alone. So, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts will make sure that it sources for sponsors so that those activities are sponsored in each district. From the district, that is when we will go to the provincial level and eventually the national level, but we also mindful of the fact that some people who may not be in school have talents.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

 

Vote 76 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation – K 1,756,835,130)

 

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Mr Kakubo): Mr Chairperson, I am greatly honoured to be given an opportunity to stand before this House and present a policy statement on the 2021 Budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. My ministry draws its functions and mandate from Government Notice No. 1123 of 2021. The mandate is to implement Zambia’s foreign policy and facilitate the Government’s interaction with the international community for the purpose of advancing this country’s national interests. The ministry’s mission, therefore, is:

 

“To effectively promote and protect Zambia’s interests and maintain good international relations in order to contribute to national development”.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation’s budget has increased to 1,756,835,130 from 1,346,872,986 allocated in 2021 with personal emoluments accounting for the largest portion of 1,642,692,743 compared to 1,332,927,121 allocated to us in 2021.

 

Mr Chairperson, recurrent departmental charges (RDCs) have risen to K112,435,726 from K12,635,725 allocated to the ministry in 2021. The grant to the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies has also increased to K1,706,661 from K1,310,140 allocated to the ministry in 2021.

 

Key Programmes

 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has objectively prioritised activities to be undertaken in 2022. These activities are focused on five key programmes for implementation at the ministry headquarters and our missions abroad as follows:

 

1. foreign policy;
2. international relations and co-operation;
3. protocol and consular services;
4. central technical services (diplomatic training and various anti-mining activities); and
5. management and support services.

 

Foreign Policy

 

Mr Chairperson, in 2021, the ministry successfully undertook key strategic and high level engagements at bilateral and multilateral levels as a dependable collaborative partner whose outputs accrued to Zambia in the political, socio and economic spheres as well as the preservation of Zambia’s sovereignty.

Mr Chairperson, this new Government has embarked on its foreign policy undertakings already. The ministry will endeavour to actively interact with the international community at regional, continental and global levels as well as bilateral partners in order to foster greater co-operation whilst safeguarding Zambia’s interests. This new Administration will ensure that Zambia continues to utilise political and economic diplomacy in fostering socio and economic development of our country. To this end, K697,848 has been allocated to undertake programmes on economic diplomacy.

 

Mr Chairperson, economic diplomacy continues to be an important focus of Zambia’s foreign policy which advances national interests and development through interaction with the international community, in order for us to fully utilise opportunities that are before us in the global arena.

 

Peace and Security

 

Mr Chairperson, you may be aware that Zambia is a signatory to the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region where we have a pact on security, stability and development. This Administration takes the issues of peace and security as the centre stage of its developmental agenda. As we endeavour to contribute towards the advancement of peace in the region and across the globe, K222,338 has been budgeted for this purpose.

 

Development Co-operation and International Organisations

 

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has been an active member of regional and continental bodies such as the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC), the Africa Union (AU) and the United Nations (UN),  to mention a few. Despite the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), the country continued to play an active role in ensuring the promotion of peace and security, sustainable development and regional integration. The country has also continued to call for concerted efforts in addressing global challenges such as climate change.

 

Mr Chairperson, in its quest to enhance the country’s political and socio economic interests, my ministry, under the leadership of President Hichilema, will continue to ensure the facilitation of Zambia’s active participation in regional, continental and international bodies. This will guarantee and maintain the promotion of Zambia’s image as a strong advocate of peace, security, democracy and respect for the rule of law.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I mentioned, COVID-19 brought many challenges to our foreign policy and international co-operation in dealing with related global challenges. Countries and regional bodies came together to implement a joint regional response and strategy to the COVID-19 pandemic. This ensured that economies in the region, including ours, continue to run efficiently, easing unnecessary delays at borders through standardisation of rules and regulations with regards to the movement of goods and persons while implementing measures intended to control the spread of COVID-19.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue facilitating efforts to build on those achievements so that the benefits for the Zambian people can be maximised. In particular, focus will be given to the implementation of agreements that Zambia has signed with other countries such as the completion of joint projects and other initiatives that will advance value addition, job creation, diversification of our economy and good governance.

 

Furthermore, Mr Chairperson, my ministry remains committed to advancing the country’s geo-economic interests and addressing the needs of the Zambian people within the country and abroad whilst utilising various economic diplomacy instruments at our disposal to ensure beneficial co-operation at bilateral, regional and multilateral levels. In this regard, K770,792 has been provided for the development of co-operation, regional integration and international organisation programmes.

 

Diaspora Policy

 

Mr Chairperson, in 2021, the ministry made strides in its efforts to create awareness as an avenue to empower Zambians in the diaspora in matters regarding land acquisition, access to national documents such as passports, promotion of trade and investment as well as leveraging on remittances. The ministry sought to attain a holistic approach in this regard that requires the participation of all Zambians, including our citizens in the diaspora, in the development agenda of our country. My ministry will strengthen engagement with Zambians abroad and create an enabling environment and platform for their effective participation in Zambia’s development agenda.

 

Mr Chairperson, this Government takes cognisance that remittance is an important component of our developmental agenda and will, therefore, endeavour to create synergies that enable our citizens to participate.

 

Central Technical Services (Zambia Mine Action Centre and Diplomatic Training)

 

Mr Chairperson, this House may be aware that Zambia is a signatory to the Anti-Personnel Landmines Convention. In this regard, my ministry will continue to respond to emergencies arising from periodic discoveries of unexploded ordinances and facilitate ordinance disposal. The ministry will also facilitate exploration surveys of areas intended for national development to ensure that they are free from landmine contamination.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I call upon the hon. Members of this House to support the 2022 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation for the policy statement.

 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to address myself to our foreign missions and how they can play their effective role in developing this country.

 

Sir, I am quite aware that, of late, all diplomats have been recalled. This is an indication that these foreign missions have been used as a way of appeasing our colleagues. Those who need jobs are given jobs in foreign missions. However, foreign missions are a source of economic activity, and indeed, as the hon. Minister has indicated, economic diplomacy. For instance, this country has so many tourist attractions and tourism potential. We have the Victoria Falls. If our foreign missions were very active, this country would have made more money from tourism. My submission is that even in this Budget, as a policy of the Government, let us stop looking at foreign missions as a way of employing people, but as an economic activity outside Zambia and, indeed, to protect Zambian interests at large.

 

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is one of the countries where its citizens living in the diaspora are not taken care of. Having lived out of the country myself, I know that our missions are basically not sensitive to the interests of Zambians living in the countries where they are seconded. So, it is my submission is that it is very important that we redefine the roles of these missions.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation has a huge task. I must submit that the ministry must ensure that Zambia’s sovereignty is maintained. At the rate we are going, I am so worried. We tend to believe that people who engage us will come and help us. We have so much belief in the international community to help us, yet the international community is there for us to engage with and negotiate for what we believe in. For instance, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has never developed a single country. As part of our foreign policy, let us ensure that we do not look to what it tells us, but beyond what it is.

 

Mr Chairperson, indeed, you do agree with me that Zambia has obtained support or donor aid from the European Union (EU) from 1974; at that time, it was called the Economic Community of Europe or European Economic Community. Although we have been getting that support, we have never moved forward up to now. In any case, we have gotten even worse.

 

Mr Chairperson, I want to submit, in reacting to the hon. Minister’s statement, that as we talk about sovereignty, we are not talking about receiving whatever people from outside this country bring to us.

 

Mr Chairperson, indeed, my other point of interest is our engagement with regional as well as continental bodies. Zambia is a member of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and, in fact, has been a driving member of SADC. It is high time that even in our Budget, we become active in SADC. Zambia is not visible in SADC. The first trip our President made out of the country was to America. That is a very serious danger and has potential to show that we do not have confidence in ourselves. As an economic community, SADC has enough to help us improve our economy. The Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and the African Union (AU) can help us improve our economy.

 

Mr Chairperson, for me, even engaging with the United Nations (UN) is wasting time. We need to focus more on African or continental bodies that we are able to deal with because we have similar problems. The UN has always been controlled by a few countries, and I want to put on record that our going there is only to be given an agenda and implement here. We do not say anything. When the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) protocols have been developed on the other side, we come and implement them religiously.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr E. Tembo: What input did we ever have in all those things? We do not even know, but we are advocating for vaccines and all these things. For me, I believe in Zambian problems being sorted out by Zambian solutions. I believe in African solutions to African problems. From now onwards, in my journey in the next five years, I want to see a Zambia that believes in itself. First, we must believe in ourselves even before we go out so that when we go out, we talk about what we believe in and not what we are told.

 

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that we have the British education and some people are sponsored by some of these international bodies to start thinking as they do as part of colonialism.

 

Mr Chairperson, I want to summarise by saying that we have a lot of resources in this country. We have many brains in this country. It is high time we believed in ourselves so that even as we engage the international community, we engage it based on what we believe as a country, as a people, and as a culture.

 

Sir, I am of the view that as we talk about foreign policy, we should not talk about spending all this money employing people in foreign missions, who do not even understand what we believe in as a country. They are messengers who receive and inform us. No! We should move from here to there. As I sit down, my simple advice as a foreign policy activist myself, let me just say to the New Deal Government –

 

Hon. Government Member: New Dawn!

 

Mr E. Tembo: New Dawn, Old Dawn, whatever dawn, ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr E. Tembo: ...  please, start believing in yourselves. Let us now start moving according to us being Zambians. We obtained our independence in 1964, but we are talking too much about America this, America that. What donation were we given? There are no free lunches. Indeed, whatever we have obtained in the name of a gift, they will take out a 100 fold. So I must submit that our foreign policy should not be a joke.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr E. Tembo: Let us be serious.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson. 

 

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing the people of Lumezi to participate on one simple issue.

 

Mr Chairperson, we have allocated K100 million to transport and logistics. We are preaching austerity measures. Most of the people who we have proposed to provide transport for are seasoned civil servants and diplomats. If we do a proper audit, we will find that six or seven months ago, there were some diplomats who were recalled and are working at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

 

Mr Chairperson, allocating a K100 million to recall or to transport the recalled without having done due diligence is wastage of public resources. Very soon, we shall be sending back to foreign missions professional civil servants who were recalled by the previous regime.

 

Mr Chairperson, we have a challenge of always debating budgeting on partisan lines. This is a culture that we must do away with. If we continue on this path, we shall end up, again, spending another K100 million in 2023 to transport cadres to go and work at these embassies.

 

Mr Chairperson, in the near future, the people of Lumezi are saying that we should be cautious unlike this wasteful expenditure of public resources.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo) Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for providing that policy statement. I, first of all, commend him for shifting the trajectory of international relations from political to economic diplomacy.

 

Sir, my major concern, in supporting his Budget, is that while the hon. Minister takes the necessary steps to increase the approach from political to economic diplomacy, for technical services, in terms of diplomatic training and mentorship, I see a minor increase in allocation. Does the hon. Minister not believe that perhaps the increase in allocation to International Relations and Co-operation should have gone to an increase in Central Technical Services?

 

Sir, as he shifts the focus on economic diplomacy to encourage Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), he needs to increase the capacity of officers. So, for the process of International Relations and Co-operation, I support that increase. However, the technical staff to do this, we have people who are trained for four weeks and are sent into Diplomatic Service, how then can we be successful in economic diplomacy, if the technical skills of these people is not to the competence levels expected? Other jurisdictions in the Western culture, and even in Africa, do appoint well-trained diplomats who have undertaken under graduate programmes in certain specific countries, where they seek to advance this agenda of economic diplomacy.

 

Mr Chairperson, therefore, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to look at the Central Technical Services aspect. If economic diplomacy should change from being rhetorical to practical, we must have diplomats who can speak FDI. We should depart from having diplomats who are appointed on the premise of being rewarded for working hard for the party; but, even such, must be given an opportunity to be adequately trained, otherwise, the song of economic diplomacy remains a song that successive Governments will sing until we improve the capacity building of diplomats and their competence levels.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Minister for his well-articulated speech as he gave us a narrative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

 

Mr Chairperson, I sympathise with my brother, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation that he has a mammoth task on his shoulders because he goes out there to portray this great and grand picture about our country. However, back home here, the narrative that comes out of this House and out of the streets of Lusaka is totally different. The narrative that comes out of here is about all the negatives about our country.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Chilangwa: Unless they do not listen to themselves. They should learn to start listening to themselves and listen very well. When I speak, they should listen…

Laughter

 

Mr Chilangwa … because if they do not listen, munshebwa aile na mafi kubuko.

 

Mr Katakwe: Like the PF!

 

Mr Chilangwa: That is what he/she does.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Meaning?

 

Mr Chilangwa: It means that he/she that does not want to listen will go in uncompromised state to the in-laws. So, are they envious of being naughty? Were they envious of not listening? Are they envious of all the wrong things?

 

Hon. UPND Member: Question!

 

Mr Chilangwa: We are on this side of the House and the reason is all the negatives. So, what they should do is be ready to listen.

 

Mr Kakubo: Debate the policy statement.

 

Mr Chilangwa: I am debating the policy statement. Now, the hon. Minister must listen. International economic diplomacy is good because we want to attract people to come to Zambia to invest in this economy so that people can have confidence in this economy, and that people are able to say they are going to the right place for Foreign Direct Investments (FDIs). That is what it is all about. That is why, in my contribution yesterday or the other day to the Vote on the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, I said certain things which I will still repeat. I said that the hon. Ministers who are not in these portfolio ministries are the Provincial Ministers. In addition to that, we have the Ministry of Tourism and the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises Development that we were debating today. I would like to believe this must be part and parcel of the major team that must go out there and be able to project how Zambia is and how we can attract investment into this economy.

 

So, for me, I will support the hon. Minister. I will not say the money for transportation is so huge. I would like to believe, if we had more resources, we could have allocated more to this ministry. If you are a team and are working as a team out there on the international scene or market, you are able to attract more than one can do as an individual. So, the hon. Minister needs these colleagues to hang around him and to support him as he goes on these international assignments. He cannot do it alone, but we can do it collectively.

 

Mr Chairperson, as we talk about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, what is our role and stance on what is currently happening in Ethiopia? Just a short while ago in his statement, the hon. Minister talked about the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (ICGLR). Obviously, Ethiopia was, but is not part of the ICGLR. However, the truth of the matter is that issues that are happening in Ethiopia should be of concern to us because Ethiopia is the seat of Africa’s independence. Ethiopia and Addis Ababa is where the African Union sits.

 

So, what is it that we are doing as Zambia to mobilise the Southern African Development Community (SADC), the East African communities and the African Union (AU) itself, to see how we can go and help and participate in ensuring that we play the positive role that we must play in the affairs that are affecting Ethiopia.

 

So, I would like to believe that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation Vote needs support from all of us because it is our window. However, as we do all the rest on the international scene, we must do the same at home because it is said that charity begins at home.

 

Mr Chairperson, with those very few remarks, I desire to stand and support the hon. Minister’s statement with the exception of the few very good remarks that I have given him so that he builds on those excellent remarks that one rarely gets ...

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chilangwa: …to build on.  

 

I thank you, Mr Chairman

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Mufalali will be the last speaker and then the hon. Minister will wind up debate.

 

Mr Mufalali (Nominated): Mr Chairperson, I want to appreciate the statement on the policy direction by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. To start with, I want to acknowledge the work that the hon. Minister is doing. So, far, he has performed very well. I am looking at the trips that he has undertaken so far and the benefits that have been accrued from those trips. The way he has handled international matters together with His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema speak volumes.

 

Mr Chairperson, when I look at where we are coming from, I know people are trying to persuade him to start moving with delegations that are very big and vast, carrying almost everyone from home into America. He should not fall for that trap because he is on the right road and right trajectory and he is carrying the right people with him. I give an example of the trip to America of two hon. Ministers and the President. That is how it is supposed to be and that is what it means to have cost saving measures in place. Where we are coming from, the President that time and the PF members were carrying huge delegations in two chartered aeroplanes to go into whatever. No, it is not right! We looked at the bills that they spent on foreign travels and we realise that that was not right. Those were huge delegations but today, here we are, Zambians should be reminded that we are coming from a situation where delegations were so big because they would carry headmen and everyone on board. What were they going to do?

 

Mr Ng’andu: Including musicians!

 

Mr Mufalali: Even musicians on board. No! It is not supposed to be the case. So, I want to say to the hon. Minister and his New Dawn Government that they are doing very well in terms of international relations. The trips are beneficial. I heard someone saying to the hon. Minister, “You went to America.” Yes, he went to America and the benefits have been huge. We saw it. You have raised the bar. The bare minimum the President has been looking for, actually you know, where we are coming from, there was no bare minimum. Everything was just something else. There was commotion and confusions but now, what the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Relations is doing is what we are supposed to do as a country. He has raised the bar. The President at the moment, internationally, continentally, regionally and even here back home, we are very proud of President Hakainde Hichilema for what he has done, and what he is doing.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mufalali: There is peace now in this country. We are coming from a situation where we were being beaten and the people around this country were not able to do business properly. That has a direct implication on those who want to come and bring Foreign Direct Investments (FDIs). If there is no peace and they are not secured with their land and other social issues and amenities, then, we have a challenge there. If you look at it, domestically, we are safe. Internationally, when our President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema stands to speak, people will realise that he has become the admiration of the world.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mufalali: Do you understand?

 

Ms Tambatamba: Quality!

 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the Conference of the Parties (COP26) in Glasgow, which the hon. Minister Foreign Affairs and International Relations, and the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment attended is a plus for us as a country. I will come and debate that issue when we debate the Vote for the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment. The monies that they managed to procure or get this time around when you went to the COP26, the previous Governments have for many years, been failing to access that money internationally and regionally but they have scored in that area. Recently, they were in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), and they scored. They are looking at ensuring that this region is galvanised and there is peace because they are looking at the borders there.

 

Mr Chairperson, it indicates very clearly of a serious Government, Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Relations, the Cabinet, and the President because those cries about the borders have been going on for a long time. The President and the ministry went down and they were able to talk one on one with the Congolese Government.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, heart!

 

Mr Mufalali: That is how it should be.  People should raise the bar to ensure that they do not just go around dancing, no! They should do not do that. A President is meant to deliver. A President is meant to show the world that there is class where he comes from and President Hakainde Hichilema has proved that. We are coming from a situation where it was not available. Look at the way the United Party for National Development (UPND) behaved towards its citizens and how it handled the issues in Ethiopia. Within no time, when the peace was lost in Ethiopia, the Government moved its citizens. That is how it is supposed to be. That is how it is to be a President of the Republic. Where we are coming from, all that was not there.

 

Sir, when it comes to quality, I am aware of how President Hakainde Hichilema has put quality above everything. I know how he has managed to ensure that he put the right people to work in foreign missions. He is looking at the quality of those who should sit on the World Trade Organisation (WTO). So, we are not going to fear anything. The ministry should continue on that trajectory. The people are behind the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Relations and I support the ministry’s Budget. I also support his policy statement to ensure that we do the right thing.

 

Mr Chairperson, this country has now been raised to a level where the whole world is admiring us. There are so many invitations. People are now inviting the President to visit them and the invitations are at the hon. Minister’s table. I am aware of that. Now they are saying they have to manage this. The reasons are simple. The President believes in high standards of doing right things like upholding democracy by ensuring that there is peace in the region. He is also ensuring that we uphold democracy even back home. We have moved away from a situation where the previous regime was looking at imprisoning almost everyone who was opposing it. That was the situation that we had before the UPND’s New Dawn Government came in, but that is now behind us. I am very happy that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Relations is doing a good job. God bless him.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kakubo: Mr Chairperson, I just want to thank my hon. Colleagues who have debated the policy statement. In doing so, I want to respond to some of the issues that my hon. Colleagues have brought out.

 

Sir, firstly, I would like to respond to the issue of recalling diplomats. I want to inform the House that the recall of diplomats by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Relations is standard practice across the globe. This is not a new phenomenon. Just like deploying diplomats into Foreign Service is standard, recalling them is also.

 

Sir, by international standard, diplomats are expected to serve for about four to five years. After that, they are supposed to be brought back and opportunities should be given to other diplomats that have been trained.

 

Mr Chairperson, on the roles of our missions, my hon. Colleagues may wish to note that in line with our economic diplomacy posture, based on trade and investment, we are already in the process of redefining how our missions will work. This process is already being done and it is very important that we do not bring into question the sovereignty of our country. Our country is sovereign and its engagements with multilateral institutions, are coming from that position. Its engagements with institutions like the International Monetary Fund (IMF) are strategic.

 

Mr Chairperson, I find it ironic that the Patriotic Front (PF) is demonising this Government today for approaching the IMF. The position of our hon. Colleagues is that they went into the capital markets and borrowed heavily. The President’s mission now is that, if at all we must borrow, it must be on concession. The IMF is one institution that helps countries that are in dire need of recapitalisation like ours, on concessional basis.

 

Mr Chairperson, I find it strange that we are being questioned about the engagements with the European Union (EU). Just yesterday, the President had a meeting with EU Ambassadors accredited to our country. That means that Zambia is in good standing with the EU.

 

Mr Chairperson, my colleague mentioned that we are invisible in the Southern African Development Community (SADC). Again, that is totally incorrect. In SADC, it was evident just a few days ago. In fact, last weekend, the President had a meeting with his counterpart, the President of Botswana, at the Kazungula Bridge. That is a SADC region.

 

Mr Chairperson, our President travelled to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) this week to consult on peace issues including the issues to do with Ethiopia. He was consulting his counterpart, President Tshisekedi, who happens to be the Chairman of the African Union (AU). Just last week, I had an hour long telephone conversation with my counterpart from Ethiopia to discuss the peace situation in that country and how Zambia is supporting it. We made initiatives also, to move Zambians out of Ethiopia. This was strategic and also, to ensure that the Zambians who are abroad are equally taken care of. The President was the first, if not the only African leader, to be proactive in that regard.

 

Mr Chairperson, to support our visibility in the SADC, how many Presidents from the SADC region, dear colleagues, attended the President’s inauguration? There are many of them and that shows that Zambia is visible in the SADC region.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to correct the impression that many diplomats have been recalled. We are doing this in phased manner. Not all of them have been recalled but among key to those who have been recalled, are those who have been recalled on disciplinary issues. No diplomat is allowed to come back from the mission specifically, to campaign but, that is what happened with the Patriotic Front (PF). Discipline must prevail even in the civil service and that includes our foreign missions.

 

Mr Chairperson, on technical services, the ministry has made strides. At the moment, we are having discussions with the Copperbelt University (CBU) to raise the bar of the training of our diplomats. Very soon, we will be signing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) that will ensure that will ensure that our diplomats are trained to degree level.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I prepare to sit, again, I want to end by where I started from. I thank my colleagues for their contributions to my policy statement

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Vote 17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

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HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

(Progress reported)

 

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The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 30^th November, 2021.

 

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