Wednesday, 24th November, 2021

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Wednesday, 24th November, 2021


The House met at 1430 hours














Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as you may be aware, the public address (PA) system in the Chamber has microphones with adjustable stems. A number of microphone stems have been replaced due to damage caused by some hon. Members who unnecessarily and without care, adjust the microphones while debating. The replacement comes at a great cost. In order to avoid the damage to the microphone stems, hon. Members, you are advised to avoid fiddling with the microphones while debating. If the microphone is to be adjusted, you must do this with utmost care.


I thank you.








Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Tuesday, 9th November, 2021, when the House was considering a ministerial statement presented by Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, on the arrest of three Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members of Parliament and Mr A. Kasandwe, hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu Constituency was on the Floor, Mr S. Kampyongo, hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Parliamentary Constituency, raised a point of order.


Mr S. Kampyongo’s point of order was premised on Standing Order No. 65(1)(b) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, which provides as follows:


“A Member who is debating shall ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”


In his point of order, Mr S. Kampyongo, raised the concern that, in response to his question on why the police was only acting then, on Mr K. Mukosa’s, Mr N. Chilangwa’s and Mr R. Chitotela’s cases, which had allegedly occurred five months previously, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security stated that it was because the police was afraid of acting at the time the cases occurred. Mr Kampyongo further stated that in his ministerial statement, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security had given examples of prominent persons who had been arrested when the PF was in Government, and that those people  included serving hon. Ministers then. He further asked: “If the police had not been afraid to arrest sitting hon. Ministers, how they could have been afraid to arrest ordinary citizens?” He, therefore, submitted that it was that contradiction in the hon. Minister’s statement that he was bringing to the attention of the House. 


Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the Hon. Madam Speaker reserved her ruling in order to examine what the hon. Minister had said in his statement. The matter has since been reviewed and I will now render the ruling.


The point of order raises the issue of an hon. Member making contradictory statements on the Floor of the House and thereby, breaching Standing Order No. 65(1)(b), which obliges hon. Members to ensure that the information they present to the House is factual and verifiable.


Hon. Members, the former Mr Speaker, Hon. Dr Patrick Matibini, SC, had occasion to consider the issue of an hon. Member making contradictory statements on the Floor of the House in the case of Mr S. Kakubo and Hon. M. Mwanakatwe. This information is in the Parliamentary Debate of 19th March, 2019.


In that matter, Mr S. Kakubo alleged that Hon. M. Mwanakatwe, then Minister of Finance, in responding to questions on the decline in the reserves at the Central Bank, had made contradictory statements. This was with regard to the source of funds for servicing the Eurobonds. In one statement, the hon. Minister had said that the Government had used the reserves in the Central Bank to service the Eurobonds while in another, she had said that the Government had not used the reserves to service the Eurobonds, but instead, had used its other earnings. In rendering a ruling on the matter, Dr Matibini stated, inter alia, as follows:


“The rules of the House demand that any information provided to the House must be factual. It is an offence punishable by the House for any person to willfully mislead the House.


Therefore, hon. Members of the House have a duty to ensure that they carefully verify their information before submitting the same to the House. This is important because the House, in making decisions, relies on the information submitted by the hon. Members.”


Upon considering the relevant verbatim record, Dr Matibini found that the hon. Minister had, indeed, made contradictory statements on the Floor of the House. He, consequently, ruled her out of order.


Hon. Members, to ascertain whether or not the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security had made contradictory statements as alleged by Mr S. Kampyongo, I had recourse to the verbatim record of his ministerial statement. Of particular relevance to the point of order is the following statement:


“Allow me, Madam Speaker, to provide examples of sitting hon. Members of Parliament and prominent members of society who were arrested by the previous regime. The current Head of State was arrested more than fifteen times. Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Stephen Masumba, Hon. Chishimba Kambwili, Hon. Romeo Kangombe, Hon. Keith Mukata, Hon. Douglas Syakalima, Hon. Chitalu Chilufya, and Hon. Ronald Chitotela were arrested while they were serving Members of Parliament.”


I further had recourse to the hon. Minister’s response to Mr S. Kampyongo’s question on why it had taken the police over five months to arrest Mr K. Mukosa, Mr N. Chilangwa and Mr R. Chitotela. In his response, the hon. Minister stated, among other things, as follows:


“I have no doubt in my mind that the former hon. Minister of Home Affairs knows that during the reign of the PF, the police was executing its duties in fear.


“Madam Speaker, I have to note that these cases were reported immediately they occurred, but the police could not take action at the time because they feared that if they took action at the time, they were going to be disciplined.”


Hon. Members, from the foregoing quotation, it is clear that by giving examples of some hon. Ministers who were arrested while the PF was in Government and subsequently stating that the police could not arrest Mr K. Mukosa, Mr N. Chilangwa, and Mr R. Chitotela, when the PF was in power because it was afraid of being disciplined, the hon. Minister made contradictory statements in the House.


Hon. Members, in keeping with Standing Order No. 65(1)(b) and the precedent set in the case of Mr S. Kakubo and Hon. M. Mwanakatwe, I find that by making contradictory statements in the House, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security was out of order.


I thank you.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!







The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the privilege to stand before the House to deliver a ministerial statement regarding the topical matter of human-wildlife conflict that is inherent within the wildlife sub-sector. My statement also provides information on the broader framework of response to the matter of the Government in collaboration with communities and our partners.


Madam Speaker, the tourism sector is one of the cornerstones of the economic development agenda of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. The sector is expected to contribute to economic growth, rural development and job creation.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Can you please put on your mask? Thank you.


Mr Sikumba wore his face mask.


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, with respect to tourism, the wildlife sub-sector forms the core,  and is a major driver of the sector in Zambia. The implication is that the management of the wildlife sub-sector has to be prudent for the whole tourism sector to thrive.


Madam Speaker, our country is among the top ten countries in Africa with the largest portions of their land that are wildlife protected areas. Our country is rich in natural resources, being home to more than 5,543 plants, 242 mammals, 757 birds and 490 fish species. The country has twenty national game parks and thirty-six game management areas (GMAs), which make up about a third of its total surface area. This fact has significant consequences on wildlife management vis-à-vis human settlement and development because of the likely spillover of human activities into wildlife areas, on one hand, and wildlife movements into human settlements, on the other.


Madam Speaker, the inevitable human-animal interactions can naturally lead to human/wildlife conflicts. These conflicts can arise from the situation when wild animals pose a direct and recurring threat to the livelihoods and safety of people and/or human activities. That poses a threat to the conversation of wildlife.


Madam Speaker, this phenomenon is a thorny issue in countries with significant wildlife estates such as ours. Due to the multidimensional nature of the issue, the Government has to implement a range of strategies to drastically reduce the occurrences of human/animal conflicts. At the broader level, the Government has identified four key result areas through the Zambia Tourism Master Plan (ZTMP), 2018-2038 and the intended outcomes under the result areas that relate to human/wildlife conflict are:




  1. improvement of law enforcement and wildlife habitat protection;
  2. improvement of the Community-Based Wildlife Management (CWM) across the country. I will address this matter in more detail shortly;
  3. strengthening of planning by development and implementation general management and tourism development area plans; and
  4. improvement of the policy and legislative landscape to provide the necessary anchor for sustainable wildlife management.


Madam Speaker, our mandate, as the Ministry of Tourism, includes conservation and management of wildlife protected areas namely, national parks, bird and wildlife sanctuaries, and GMAs for tourism purposes. During the execution of its mandate, the ministry has recognised human-wildlife conflict as a perennial problem. That problem manifests in the form of crop and property damage, human injuries and fatalities, land boundary disputes, land use exclusion, and encroachment in and around wildlife protected areas.


Madam Speaker, records in the ministry show that in 2020, 10,487 reported incidences of human-wildlife conflict were documented. This is in comparison with 8,765 incidences in 2019. We are mindful that there could have been incidences that went unreported. The incidences resulted in forty-five people being injured and sixty-one losing their lives in 2020. In 2019, the number of injured people and those killed were thirty-five and forty-seven, respectively.


Madam Speaker, in addition, to the direct threat to human life, human-wildlife conflicts also have had a negative impact on livestock and crops. With regard to livestock, records show that in 2020, the reported total loss was 180 domestic animals, which included ninety-three herds of cattle; seventy-three goats; six dogs; four sheep; and four pigs. The loss of animals was mainly attributed to the predator species, which included lions, leopards, crocodiles and hyenas, while the loss of crops was attributed to herbivores, such as elephants, hippos, buffaloes and bush pigs. Arising from the reported incidences, 253 problem animals were controlled in 2020, compared with fifty in 2019. The main species involved were elephants, hippos, buffaloes, bush pigs, crocodiles, lions, leopards, bushbucks, baboons, hyenas, kudus and monkeys.


Madam Speaker, it is worth noting that there are many factors that contribute to the occurrence and increase in human-wildlife conflicts. The foremost is the increase in population in communities around the national parks and GMAs.  The other factors include blocking of animal corridors, movement of animals out of their usual habitats due to poaching and other human threats, and a lack of awareness and education on wildlife species, especially, on how people should safely respond when they feel threatened by animals.


Madam Speaker, the solution to increased incidences of human-wildlife conflicts, therefore, is mitigating the enabling factors at all levels.


Madam Speaker, allow me to highlight some of the key measures for addressing the matter.


Madam Speaker, at the strategic level, the Government will promote consistency in the development and implementation of General Management Plans (GMPs). The GMPs set forth the basic management and development philosophy for protected areas, provide the land use strategies for addressing problems and achieving identified management objectives set from time to time. This is key in preventing trespassing and encroachments of all kinds.


Madam Speaker, it is important to restrain animals such as elephants from moving into certain areas to prevent conflict, by using a variety of methods that include chilli blasting, watchtowers, electric fences and safe grain stores.


Madam Speaker, the use of local radio stations to educate and sensitise communities living around animal habitats on threats posed by animals and mechanism to prevent harm to human life and property will continue to be employed. 


In order for us to have an active early warning system, the Government will conduct regular monitoring of animal populations and movements, notify communities and control animal densities to ensure that they within the recommended stocking rates. For effectiveness, the use of Global Positioning System (GPS) satellite collars and aerial surveillance for animal tracking will be used and scaled up.


Madam Speaker, communities near wildlife protected areas will always face the risk of exposure to human-wildlife conflicts. Our aim as the Government is to reduce the scale of frequency of occurrences to safeguard the lives of the people and property from wildlife threats.


Madam Speaker, communities need to desist from encroaching on protected areas. Experience has demonstrated that the increase in illegal settlements in protected areas result in land conflicts.


Madam Speaker, the Government, through the ministry has finalised the National Community- Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM) Policy. The aim of the policy is to unlock the economic potential for the natural resource sector for the benefit of present and future generations, and to secure it from various threats. The policy seeks to create an enabling environment that will enhance conservation of natural resources as an economic asset that should be beneficial to local communities that reside within those resources as well as contribute effectively to the national economic development.


Madam, one approach that is very promising in providing a long term solution to that matter is the Community-Based Wildlife Management (CWM). The approach entails the Government partnering with community resource boards and village action groups to co-manage the wildlife resources particularly, in GMAs. The approach combines the improvement of the welfare of communities around GMAs using funds generated from wildlife, and community engagement in wildlife conservation.


Madam Speaker, the Government is actively promoting this approach countrywide. Therefore, during the review of the Zambia Wildlife Act No. 14 of 2015, efforts will be made to improve the provisions related to community structures, their governance, revenue sharing mechanisms and functions of the structures in support of wildlife management. This is in addition to amendments that will seek to strengthen wildlife management to reduce human/wildlife conflicts.


Madam Speaker, in terms of community beneficiation, the Government will implement a fifty-fifty sharing of hunting concessions, live captures, animal fees and land user fees between the Government and those of communities. The Government desires to achieve key outcomes that will ensure that communities play their role in wildlife management as follows:


  1. recognition of the rights and development needs of local communities;
  2. delegation of management functions of local community structures within appropriate levels of participation and incentives;
  3. community empowerment from wildlife resource as a development option; and
  4. good governance, equity, inclusiveness and socio-economic and environmental sustainability.


Madam Speaker, the Government we will further make revenue sharing mechanisms more predictable and transparent. That will provide an adequate incentive for community involvement in conservation at village level.


Madam Speaker, other complementary measures that the Government will continue to implement include delineating and demarcating boundaries of national parks and GMAs. Further, the Government will promote implementation and sponsorship of alternative livelihoods anchored on business plans. This will enable maximisation of the value of natural resources through markets and business partnerships, that allow producer communities to share benefits at household level, and enable them monitor and protect the wildlife resources.


Madam Speaker, these measures will go hand in hand with sensitisation of communities on sustainable livelihoods, conservation issues, like protection of animal habitats; enactment of laws; environment management; wildlife management; and the general management plans; among other issues.


Madam Speaker, we are confident that the integrated approach which will be implemented with the relevant stakeholders along the wildlife value chain, will not only develop the sector, but will without doubt, enable the Government to address the human/wildlife conflict in a more sustainable manner. This will result in a peaceful co-existent and a shared future for all involved.


I thank you, Madam Speaker. 


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Tourism.


Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I hope I am holding the microphone properly.




Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate ministerial statement on animal-human conflict. He has pointed out that he will review the boundaries of Game Management Areas (GMAs) as well as national parks.


Mr Fube coughed.


Hon. Members: Drink water.


Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, having indicated that, I have in mind certain areas that are no longer called national parks anymore because they have been taken over by human settlements particularly, the Isangano National Park, which is between Chilubi and Luwingu and the Mweru Wantipa National Park, and not Mweru Wamuchanga, which is near Kasongole.


Madam Speaker, I say so because we have had conflicts where  even residents in those areas –




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!


Can you please be specific? Ask your question because we have a lot of work to cover. If you start debating, we are going to waste more time.


Mr Fube: Madam, when does the Government intend to degazette some of the areas that used to be national parks but have been taken over by human settlement? I am asking this question because there are schools and clinics in those areas I have mentioned.


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, if I got the hon. Member for Chilubi’s question correctly, it pointed at when the Government was going to degazette some national parks. As at today, the hon. Member may wish to note that the Government is not degazetting any national park. The citizens who are living in those places are there illegally. For as long as these are protected areas, citizens must not live there. The hon. Member talked about areas like Isangano and Mweru Wantipa, whose animals have been depleted. It is the Government’s desire to restock animals in those game parks.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much –


Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.


Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this rare opportunity to rise on a point of order. I am sure you know that I rarely do, Madam Speaker.



Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, my point of order hinges on the provisions of Section 131(3) and (7) and its relation thereof, to the National Assembly Standing Orders to do with violations of the law, rules, regulations and practices, that include precedents in order to maintain the decorum of this House, especially for the presiding officers.


Madam Speaker, yesterday, when the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock, I believe, was debating, Hon. Chitotela, Member of Parliament for Pambashe, rose on a point of order and you accordingly, gave a ruling to which my dear elder brother violently reacted to. He stood up and stormed out of this House in a very majestic, but flamboyant way of show of force of authority in frowning upon and rejecting fragrantly the ruling of the Speaker, in what left the House and the nation in awe.


Madam Speaker, I could not rise on a point of order at that time because I was too shocked by that behaviour. I recall that last year, or is it early this year, when I was innocently asking a question to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Kampyongo, in respect of gassing, I was rudely interrupted by some Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members of Parliament, at which time, Mr Speaker, Dr Matibini, intervened to admonish them. I decided to walk out peacefully and not violently, the way Hon. Chitotela did, but I was punished by this House, in what I perceived – Maybe let me end there.


Madam Speaker, was my elder brother, Hon. Chitotela, in order to behave in the manner he did by walking or storming out of this House, waving his hands and issuing statements that demeaned the exotic and prestigious position of the Speaker of this House? Was he in order to behave the way he behaved?


 I pray for a favourable ruling, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I thank you for that important point of order. However, I wish that point of order was raised yesterday. I advise you to maybe, use other avenues to raise that complaint.


The hon. Member for Kamfinsa may continue with his question.


Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I almost forgot my question …




Mr Kang’ombe: …because I am equally shocked at the failure by the hon. Minister for Southern Province to raise that issue yesterday in line with Standing Order No. 131(6).


Mr Mwene: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Let the hon. Member for Kamfinsa continue with the question.


Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your protection. The hon. Minister of Tourism has issued a ministerial statement on the human/animal conflicts that arise in the national parks and details have been provided.


Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister refers to legislation and policy direction. I want to inquire if the policy direction that he has pronounced today will be condensed into some document that will serve as a reference guide, not only for future hon. Ministers but also, for the nation. As we continue deliberating possible solutions to the problems, it will be necessary that some of these proposals and steps that the ministry intends to take are condensed into a national policy. Does he intend to develop a national policy that will deal with this matter now and in future?


Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order was raised by the hon. Member for Mangango.


Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order in connection with the point of order that was raised by my hon. colleague.




Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member, Mr. Chitotela, in order to go unpunished for such kind of behaviour that is demeaning the decorum of this House? That behaviour cannot be condoned in this House by your office, Madam Speaker. I seek your serious ruling Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


In our Standing Orders, it is very clear that you cannot raise a point of order on another similar point of order. I have directed the hon. Minister for Southern Province to use other avenues which I believe, he will do.  


Can the hon. Minister of Tourism attend to the question raised by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, yesterday, we seemed to have been shocked about the issue of raising points of order in this House. I am hoping that today, hon. Members will pay particular attention when a ministerial statement is delivered.  


Madam Speaker, I repeat, the Government, through the ministry has finalised the National CBNRM Policy. It has been condensed and this will form a legislative framework on what is going to cover the Community Resource Board (CRB).


I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, am I audible?


Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are loud and clear. Go ahead, please.

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, first of all, I thank the hon. Minister for that ministerial statement and for taking that progressive step. In areas like Luangwa, there have been historical problems. Now, does the ministry have an immediate solution to game management, especially that the game management officers have been lacking in terms of transport and other equipment to protect these game parks, bearing in mind that the ministry is one of those that are earmarked for job creation for our youths and also, to contribute to the national coffers?


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, if I got the hon. Member correctly, his question is with regards to support to the national parks. I wish to report that, as a ministry, we have engaged our partners to assist us in managing the national parks. These partners definitely, will look into the issue of conservation and also, assisting the Government to remunerate the community scouts who are within the national parks. In the next few weeks, if not a month or two, we will see in the media as well as the House, how far we will go in terms of progress made with a number of partners that will help us manage these parks.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker gave the floor to the hon. Member for Kafue.


Mrs Chonya was not available.


Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I have been skipped.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!


You are not supposed to choose yourself to speak. The Presiding Officer has the power to choose whoever is supposed to speak. Since the hon. Member for Kafue seems not to be in the House, we will give the Floor to the hon. Member for Feira.


Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I am very obliged to that direction. 


Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Tourism for the many efforts he is trying to make in the ministry.


Madam Speaker, there has been overpopulation of animals like elephants and crocodiles and these animals have started feeding on people. I know that people can also eat some of these animals.


Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam.


Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, due to the fact that people do not eat these animals, they are being eaten by these animals. We have a big problem in the same area in Luangwa. Now, my question is –


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Feira!


A point of order is raised.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am very concerned. If you look closely at the hon. Member for Lunte and the hon. Member for Pambashe, their hands are very busy (shaking his hands). Madam Speaker, I saw a bee coming from that side to where I am seated.




Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am suspecting that there are people who move with bees in their pockets, and now, they have released them towards me, and I feel unsafe. Are they in order to come to this Chamber with bees ...




Mr Nkombo: their pockets, thereby, endangering and disturbing me as I am trying to deal with correspondences coming to my office? I cannot concentrate.


Madam Speaker, at first, I thought it was just a normal fly, until I saw – There it is. (pointing at what was flying around).




Mr Nkombo: Are they in order, Madam Speaker, to endanger us? There it is (pointing at what was flying around). It has gone back to Hon. Chitotela.


I seek your ruling on this matter, Madam Speaker.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: That point of order was on a lighter moment because the hon. Minister did not even cite the Standing Order No. that has been breached. Thank you for that lighter moment. We are all safe in this House.


Continue, hon. Member for Feira.


Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was saying that these animals have started eating people. In Feira, there are over eight cases of people who have been attacked by elephants and crocodiles. When the population of these animals rises, they must be cropped, at least to save human life, which is more important than that of animals. Therefore, we need to find a way of cropping animals. When is the ministry going to start cropping animals in Feira and other parts of the country?


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Feira for that very interesting question.


 Madam Speaker, amazing enough, in Chilubi, the hon. Member wants us to restock animals but the hon. Member of Feira wants us to crop animals. I think there has to be some form of synergy, where we can organise a meeting for the two hon. Members to do an exchange of animals.


Madam Speaker, on a serious note, with regard to areas that are overpopulated with animals, we have a commercial way of handling that issue. The hon. Member will realise that we normally give hunters what we call, “safari hunting quotas”, which effectively deal with areas that are populated with animals. We give them the safari hunting quotas based on the population of animals in an area. So, if there seems to be more elephants per se in Feira, the safari hunters will be given more allocation to enable them crop those elephants. However, in other areas where there are neither elephants nor hippos,  we definitely work within the quota that we have.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Tourism has taken long to restock animals in some game parks and Game Management Areas (GMAs) and this has created room for people to settle in these reserved areas. When people have put up infrastructure in those areas, they will eventually, be told to vacate and this will result into conflict. To avoid this conflict, when is the hon. Minister considering restocking animals in GMAs and game parks so as to avoid people taking advantage and settling in these areas?


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I believe this question is targeted at the issue of restocking animals in our national parks.


Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that my ministry, through the Department of National Parks and Wildlife, has already started restocking animals in most depleted national parks. Among other parks that have been restocked is the Nsumbu National Park, where we restocked it with over 200 buffaloes. However, we did not stop there. We further, went to Sioma Ngwezi National Park, where we restocked the national park with ostriches; buffaloes; zebras and impalas; and Lusanga National Park, where we took twelve black lechwes. So, the process of restocking exercise is ongoing and we intend to see that all the depleted areas have animals going forward. I am just happy that on a lighter note, our colleagues from the north have started embracing animals because, whenever we restocked, animals did not last for more than three months.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


 Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, this microphone (holding the microphone) has a problem. I have not caused it. 


Madam Speaker,



Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is it a point of order or a point of procedure?


Mr Chitotela: It is a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.


Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, we were seated here quietly with my young brother, the hon. Member for Lunte, who was sharing with me his ordeal of how he has been victimised by the loss of his seat through a petition, when the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development maliciously stood up and addressed the House and the nation over a fly, when there are so many flies in this House. Everywhere, there are flies.




Mr Chitotela: Maybe, he sent flies here and maliciously, chose to single out my name and that of the hon. Member for Lunte, that we may be carrying flies in our pockets, when even on the Clerk’s Table, there are flies.

Madam Speaker, is this House in order to not to clean and eliminate the flies so that the people who are insensitive to other people’s feelings, like the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, do not bring the names of innocent citizens into public ridicule and ruin their reputation which they have built for so long?


Madam Speaker, is this House procedurally in order to even entertain this as a joke instead of rebuking him and referring that point of order to what we are experiencing in this House? I can even see flies even on your desk, Madam Speaker.




Mr Chitotela: Is this House in order to allow that point of order without challenging it? I need your serious guidance, more so that two names have been mentioned in public domain. Yes, we enjoy immunity, but not to the extent of injuring other people’s reputations. I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much for that point of order. In my ruling, if you heard very well, I disqualified that point of order because no Standing Order No. was breached. So, as far as I am concerned, that point of order was disqualified.


Continue, hon. Member for Chitambo.


Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, we are so grateful that the hon. Minister keeps on informing the nation on matters that are happening in his ministry.


Madam Speaker, Zimbabwe, which is across Kariba and is our neighbouring country, has managed to integrate animals into the community. In Kenya, at a place called Naivasha, where our colleagues are producing geothermal energy, they have integrated animals and human beings. Has the ministry taken time to go to those countries to discover what our colleagues did for them to attain levels where they do not have animal/human conflicts?


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chitambo for that very interesting question. I am happy that he has taken time to look across the region and study a few key lessons that are being obtained in those particular countries.


Madam Speaker, the wildlife in Zambia is not only owned by Zambia, but it moves from one country to the other. In a quest to learn from various countries that the hon. Member for Chitambo has mentioned, we are party to the Kavango–Zambezi (KAZA) region that enables or gives an opportunity to each and every country that is in the region to coexist with animals within the Southern African Development Community (SADC).


Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Member’s question, yes, we are having talks with colleagues within the region, especially the SADC, on the ways and means to co-exist. However, we realise that our issues in Zambia are more localised and Zambia specific, so, we are trying to understand exactly what is happening within our country.


Madam Speaker, with regards to how we will co-exist within the CRB policy, we are engaging stakeholders such as the traditional leadership and the hon. Members of Parliament, where there are GMAs and parks within their constituencies, the communities as well as the Government. So, it will be very easy for us to manage the coexistence between humans and wildlife.


I thank you, Madam Speaker. 


Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate ministerial statement.


Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to commend the Government that the Natural Resource Management Board (NRMB) document will soon be released. It is exciting that it will be on a 50/50 basis. However, I would like to have an understating on how long some concessional agreements that have been pending between the outfitters and the Community Resource Board (CRBs) shall be resolved so that the atmosphere in the national parks and Game Management Areas (GMAs) can be settled and that the community that hunts in those areas can be happy?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Itezhi-tezhi for that question. With regards to the awarding of the concessions, the nation will be notified in due course. The concessions currently running will expire at the end of the year. So, as soon as the formalities and clearances are done, we will announce to the nation who has been awarded.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mrs Chonya was not available.


Mr Mtayachalo was not available.


Mr Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned in his ministerial statement the involvement or sensitisation of the communities that lie in the Game Management Areas (GMAs) and I know that sensitisation is a blanket statement. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether pupils from schools in those areas are also captured and sensitised because they could be the best conduits or transmitters of information to their parents in terms of the human/animal conflicts in those areas? What are the levels of involvement of the schools and churches that lie in these GMAs?


Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, it is like we are busy attending to points of order when we have a lot of work that needs to be covered, especially on the Budget. We are supposed to be here up to 24th December, 2021, but if we have a lot of these points of order, we will even go after Christmas. So, from now on, I am going to admit only points of order that are of a serious nature. Otherwise, we are supposed to start with the Budget.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.


Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, Standing Order 71 pronounces how a question shall be administered. You gave me the chance to ask that question to the hon. Minister and I was anticipating an answer from the hon. Minister.


Madam Speaker, my question was very simple and particular. I did ask whether the hon. Minister has been to countries such as Zimbabwe and Kenya to learn how our colleagues have managed to get animals and human beings to coexist.


Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did not answer my question. He, instead, spoke to something else which I did not ask. He talked about boards which he is supposed to create, and so on and so forth. Is he in order not to answer my question which the people of Chitambo asked, as the human/animal conflict is also prevalent in Chitambo? We have the Kasanka National Park there in Chitambo.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: We do expect to get answers from hon. Ministers. However, if you are not satisfied with the answer that was given, I am sure you can find another avenue of raising the serious issue that you have at hand. There are so many questions that you can ask outside this time that we are attending to. You can raise a question for oral answer, raise an urgent question, ask Her Honour the Vice-President on Friday or visit the hon. Minister at his office.  


Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan for that very good question, I must say. The serious matter that has been obtaining in the country is that of having people or partners – the bee is here – who are engaged in assisting the Government in managing these protected areas.




Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, one consistent item that has come from my ministry to partners is to ensure that the sensitisation is actually done properly using the stakeholders within a particular area which houses the national park.

Madam Speaker, to this day, our engagement which, like I mentioned, is sitting in the policy stems from communities, chiefdoms and the Government so that whenever we want to implement any policy within a particular area, it is embraced by the community within that particular area.


Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, yes, we have included in our sensitisation programme schools and churches as well as everybody else who is involved within the national parks.


Madam Speaker, I thank you. 







96. Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East) on behalf of (Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe)) asked the Minister of Energy:


  1. whether the Government has any plans to electrify the following Schools in Mufumbwe District:


(i)         Kakundwe;

(ii)        Kashima East;

(iii)       Kashima West;

(iv)       Lumwi;

(v)        Chilimba;

(vi)       Kaminzekezeke;

(vii)      Lalafuta;

(viii)     Miluji;

(ix)   Shimpandanga

(x) Kabanga

b. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

c. what the source of energy for each school will be.


The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala): Madam Speaker, I was prepared to answer the question by Mr Kamondo and not this one.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is the same question. Mr Kamondo is not around and so, he delegated his friend to ask on his behalf. That is the question that we are looking at now.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the ten listed schools are located between Wishimanga Primary School, Mufumbwe and Manyinga boundary in Kasamba area. I wish to indicate that Wishimanga Primary School is now connected to the grid on 33 Kv, which is 40 km from Mufumbwe Substation. Manyinga boundary, in the Kasamba area is also connected to the grid on 11 kV, that is 65 km from the Kabompo Sub-station. The schools between Wishimanga and Kasamba area have no power connectivity currently.


Madam Speaker, through the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), the Government is extending the grid. Thus, the listed schools are encouraged to apply for electricity as they have not formally applied for power connection for the connection process to begin.


Madam Speaker, ZESCO Limited awaits formal applications by the listed schools and it is required to procure materials.


Madam Speaker, the source shall be connecting to the grid an extension of 33kV line from Wishimanga or the introduction of solar power.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, I want to benefit from the question that Mr Kamondo, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufumbwe has asked.


Madam Speaker, I have in mind rural constituencies like Kaumbwe Constituency that have problems with power connectivity. Does the ministry have any master plan in terms of power connectivity by the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) so that we visit it for us to our people in the constituencies accordingly? In Kaumbwe Constituency, all the schools have no power connection except for Mwanjabantu Primary School and Matonje Primary School.. REA put up poles some years back and abandoned the project.


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, before the hon. Member of Parliament joined the House, I had laid the Master Plan from the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) on the Table of the House. I suggest that the hon. Member comes to my office so that we can discuss priority areas that can be attended to.


I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, the issue of power is a concern not only for Mufumbwe, but for many rural schools. Just last week, we were attending to a similar question by the hon. Member for Chienge, if I am not mistaken.

Madam Speaker, their Government, the Government of Mr Hakainde Hichilema has come up with the Ministry of Technology and Science. So, we expect learners in these schools to benefit from the Ministry of Technology and Science. Since most rural schools have no electricity, does the hon. Minister intend to come up with a comprehensive statement which will give a picture of how many schools in this country, especially rural schools which are not yet connected to ZESCO Limited or the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) will be connected? This Government’s policy of taking technology to all schools without electricity will be in vain. Does the hon. Minister have any plans to come to this august House with a comprehensive statement –


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Hon. Member, you have already asked your question. Can we allow the hon. Minister to respond?


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, to answer that question, I can only ask the hon. Member of Parliament to be a bit patient. I will get back to the House to give a comprehensive statement on the status of connections to rural schools.


I thank you, Madam.


Madam First Deputy Speaker gave the Floor to the hon. Member for Kafue but she was not available.


Mrs Chonya was unavailable.


Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers he has given to the people of Mufumbwe. However, I seek clarification from the hon. Minister. The hon. Minister said that schools that are along the M8 Road are supposed to apply to ZESCO Limited for connection. My fear is that some of these schools like Chilimba and Wishimanga are about 20 km or 25 km away from places where electricity is. Is the hon. Minister able to cater for the connection fees since the distance involved is too much? What would the hon. Minister advise the people of Mufumbwe, especially the schools that I have mentioned which are in far flung areas?


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I will answer that question by giving additional information. As more schools in the area pay capital contribution, ZESCO Limited will still follow the first-in first-out principle. However, there can be exceptions seeing that the number has increased. Once a team is camped in the area, all schools can be dealt with in a specified period. So, that is coming.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, my question is to do with the cost of application for power connectivity. I have one rural school in mind where ZESCO Limited has asked it to pay K95,000. Is the ministry looking at how best these fees for schools can be lowered so that issues of application are dealt with quickly? Some schools do not even bother to apply because they do not have that kind of money.


Madam Speaker, in trying to respond to this huge oversight – I do not understand how the ministry would construct a school and forget to connect power to it. Is the ministry going to come up with any ways of ensuring that these fees are lowered? Right now, my school has been asked to pay K95,000 as application fee and  I do not know what the cost for other schools would be.


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I request that I prepare a comprehensive statement as regards the possibility of any option to reduce some of the capital contributions towards the connection of electricity to schools.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about the other schools that are going to benefit from the solar electrification project. What measure is the ministry going to take to connect Kaminzekezeke that is about 50 km to the national grid? It will be totally impossible for this school to pay for electricity connection because it will require many poles to install electricity to Kaminzekezeke. What is the hon. Minister going to advise the people of Kaminzekezeke to do? Is the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) or ZESCO Limited, that is going to connect power to that school? On the same note, there are other schools such as Lalafuta, Miluji, and Shimpandanga that are going to benefit from the solar energy. When is that connectivity going to be done?


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I am sure all the hon. Members of Parliament here are aware that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) amount has been increased to K25.7 million. So, the CDF money should be used to electrify those schools which are in remote areas.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, rural schools have suffered excruciatingly in the past, they have suffered now and they will to suffer in the future because of the lack of connectivity to the national grid or availability of power. What is the ministry doing in the interim before it connects the schools to the national grid or any other form of energy to assist them conduct examinations in science subjects which require power to conduct practical examinations and Information Communication Technology (ICT) requires computers used in the process. What is the ministry doing about this, looking at the broader picture or the entire nation regarding schools that have no electricity?


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, due to financial constraints, which everybody is aware of, we encourage the affected schools to procure solar energy. However, we need to look at the master plan that I laid on the Table and prioritise the areas that are very far away from the main grid.


I thank you, Madam. 


Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, unfortunately, my question was asked by the previous hon. Member of Parliament, who was on the Floor.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, last time, the hon. Minister talked about the Africa Minigrid Developers Associations (AMDA). Does the Government have any strategy of electrifying these rural schools in case the AMDA maybe a cheaper way to go? Does the Government have any intention to engage them in these electrification issues?


Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I would encourage the hon. Member of Parliament to come to the office so that the two of us can engage the Africa Minigrid Developers Association (AMDA).


I thank you, Madam.








Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to finalise the formulation of the National Community-Based Natural Resources Management (CBNRM) Policy to enhance the governance of natural resources at community level.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?


Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.


Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking you for giving the people of Mpika this opportunity to move this non-controversial Motion but very important, that seeks to urge the Government to finalise the formulation of the National CBNRM Policy to enhance the governance of natural resources at community level.


Madam Speaker, the Motion is non-controversial at all and I believe it will benefit hon. Members of Parliament who represent people in the communities. Further, the Motion is in line with the New Dawn Government’s persuasion of governing, which is focused on strengthening decentralisation by creating an enabling environment through the provision of structures and mechanism that empower communities to manage their affairs.


Madam Speaker, allow me to give some historical background CBNRM Policy. The CBNRM initiatives in Southern Africa, were introduced in the 1980s as a strategy to ensure that natural resources were decimated by local communities. Zambia then, rose to the occasion and adopted the CBNRM approach driven by the principle of community participation, which is consistent with the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) and the Nagoya Protocol 2010.


Madam Speaker, during this period CBNRM used various models with unclear guidance on how these community revenue resource-based programs could be harmonised because they were informed by practice. This resulted in fragmented and uncoordinated efforts, inadequate monitoring and limited rights and benefits to the local communities. Over the years, the managing of community-based natural resources has culminated into declining resource platforms because degradation and loss of valuable natural resources.


Madam Speaker, the declining of state community-based natural resources did not go unnoticed in the recent past. This is why, in 2018, a national taskforce comprising of Government officials from the Department of National Parks and Wildlife, forest fisheries, mines, climate change, communities, chiefs and supporting Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) was established. The taskforce was mandated to steer the process of developing this policy. In developing this policy, the taskforce undertook rigorous consultation with several stakeholders. Therefore, it goes without saying that the Government invested huge sums of tax payers money in formulating this policy.


Madam Speaker, with this important historical back ground, may I draw your attention to how the draft policy suits into Zambia’s current governance. First of all, I believe that the CBNRM policy augments the Decentralisation Policy and it is in tandem with Zambia’s governance of striving to enhance the involvement of communities in the affairs of the nation. In the recent days, we have seen a persuasion to actualise our vision of the Decentralisation Policy by devolving many governance functions to the local levels with matching resources. For instance, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocation is the highest ever. I want to believe that the Government will also expeditiously work on supporting these funds with actions that will actualise systems such as the CBNRM Policy.


Madam Speaker, the finalisation of this policy will generate a lot benefits such as assisting local communities by providing a clear process of accessing and benefiting from CBNRM, creating a local level management governance framework for participation in decision making on utilisation of the resources, creating provisions for stakeholder involvement, collaboration and integrated management, enabling Government improvements on its oversight role in community based natural resources management, and finally, providing a framework for managing human wildlife interactions.


Madam Speaker, I am aware that the CBNRM Policy is in draft form and this is why its dormancy makes uneasy. I worry about what will become of Zambia’s community based natural resources if Government continues to drag its feet in finalising this policy. Allow me therefore, to highlight the key risks that the non-finalisation of this policy will cause.


Madam Speaker, firstly, the community-based natural resources will continue to be fragmented across line ministries with their respective portfolio and functions. This means that, the nation risks not benefiting fully from these resources and the inadequate policy guidelines of these resources will make the resources vulnerable to abuse.


Madam Speaker, secondly, the community-based natural resources will risk being degraded further and go to waste because of the absence of clear modalities of informing communities of actions to take for natural resources protection, fire management, mitigating encroachment, deforestation, illegal harvesting of natural resources. This incapacitates efforts of sustaining of this community based natural resources.


Madam Speaker, thirdly, the risk of non-finalisation of the policy means all the human and monetary public resources that were spent on developing the draft CBNRM Policy will go to waste.


Madam Speaker, fourthly, I am aware of some relevant policies under the legislation that govern environmental and natural resources management in Zambia. However, they are fragmented with inadequate coordination mechanisms and unclear laws among them. The threat is weak natural resources governance which undermines conservation, local livelihood and development.


Madam Speaker, further, the lack of policy guidelines causes a risk that locals will have limited participation in these resources. Consequently, limited benefits will accrue communities leaving within and around natural resources. This means that the communities where these natural resources are situated risk not benefiting from them. Through this Motion, it is anticipated that the Government will be magnanimous to open candid conversations about the policy to enable all stakeholders to develop a clear and tractable roadmap indicating how this policy can be finalised. This outcome will materialise when we leaders chosen by the people in these communities where the natural resources bases are found choose not to approach the topic with tough talking on one hand and soft acting on the other.


Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the call to action for the Government is to expedite the finalisation of the CBNRM Policy to transform the way community-based natural resources are managed.


Madam Speaker, I beg to move.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?


Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I am ready and I will proceed. Madam Speaker, allow me to thank you…




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Mr Mtayachalo: … for the privilege to second.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!


Mr Mtayachalo: Yes, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, hold on. You are supposed to follow the procedure. So, in this case, you are supposed to say, “Now, Madam” because I had asked, “Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?”


Mr Mtayachalo: Yes, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: After that, I was supposed to call upon you to give us your speech. So, let us start.


Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?


Mr Mtayachalo: Now, Madam Speaker.


Madam, thank you for this privilege to second this Motion to Finalise the Formulation of National Community-Based Natural Resources Management (CBNRM) Policy on behalf of Chama North Constituency, which lies in a Game Management Area (GMA). Let me also thank Hon. Kapyanga, Member of Parliament for Mpika Central for ably moving this Motion.


Madam Speaker, from the outset, I affirm my support for this progressive Motion which is urging the Government to finalise the draft CBNRM Policy. Let me also hasten to state that CBNRM is not new to Zambia as it existed before Zambia attained political independence when the management of forests, wildlife, fisheries and other natural resources was in full custody of traditional leadership structures.


Madam Speaker, while Zambia may have built some good practices on CBNRM over the years, the participation of local citizens has largely remained fragmented and unsustainable. Therefore, their impact on CBNRM is rather low and so, it needs more desirable action from the Government. The current policy framework on CBNRM lacks predictability, transparency and adequate guidelines to harmonise it with the Government’s aspirations of ensuring decentralisation and devolution of functions and powers from the central to sub-national authorities.


Madam Speaker, in view of this, the draft CBNRM Policy, by and large, will aim to accomplish the installation of decentralised structures that target empowerment of citizenry and local communities at grassroots levels.


Madam Speaker, in seconding this Motion, allow me to restrict myself to discussing in a thematic order some of the benefit episodes in the draft policy.


Wildlife Sub-Sector


Madam Speaker, the wildlife subsector faces a number of challenges which include human/wildlife conflict, poaching and habitat loss. These challenges have threatened the extinction of exotic wildlife species in GMAs because local communities are not sufficiently involved in their management beneficiation. Human/animal conflict has continued to escalate posing a very serious challenge to food security and lives of people who live near GMAs. Chama North Constituency is one of the affected constituencies. Every month, we record deaths and destruction of people’s crops because of increased animal population and these people are not even compensated.


Madam Speaker, however, on this premise alone, finalisation of the CBNRM will help to resolve the wildlife related challenges, enhance protection of wildlife and potentially attract investment in wildlife tourism.


Water Resource Subsector


Madam Speaker, Zambia is endowed with abundant water bodies in all the geological regions. The water bodies are precious resources often used for industrial and agricultural activities. However, conflicts have surfaced regarding access to water frontages and in some cases, water population. The draft CBNRM Policy envisages to enhance mechanisms aimed at strengthening conflict management and resolutions regarding access to water resources.


Fisheries Subsector


Madam Speaker, Zambia holds up to 40 per cent of fresh waters in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region with forecasted growth in the fisheries subsector and improved community participation. However, at local level, benefits are limited because the current policies are not harmonised with the best practices on CBNRM approaches. Therefore, the draft CBNRM Policy aims to achieve among other benefits, resolving perennial conflicts during the annual fishing bans which maintain adequate fish stock in the natural water bodies.


Mines and Minerals Subsector


Madam Speaker, the mines and minerals subsector in Zambia has faced a number of challenges such as mining induced displacements and resettlements. Furthermore, in some mining developments, local communities are passive recipients of the mining activities. It is therefore, envisaged that finalisation of the draft CBNRM Policy will facilitate formation of mutually beneficial partnerships between the local communities and the investors including accessing fair amounts of benefits and opportunities. I believe this is also going to enhance social corporate responsibility. Hence, the local people will derive maximum benefit from their God-given natural resources and not what is happening at the moment where safari hunters and other stakeholders are giving lip services to our people who have looked after these animals for generations.


Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to state that management of natural resources has continued to be fragmented across different line ministries with some sectors not having clear policy direction on CBNRM. In addition, there is lack of unified national registration and guidelines to leverage on natural resources as economic assets that will contribute to creation of wealth at household level, opportunities and jobs. Therefore, through the draft CBNRM Policy, the Government will have a unified national policy and guidelines to strengthen the governance of natural resources.


Madam Speaker, I, therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to support this non-controversial Motion, very progressive, to finalise the National CBNRM Policy.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to add and ventilate on a few issues in relation to this Motion. Let me begin by thanking the hon. Member for Mpika Central, who has moved this Motion and also, the seconder. I must hasten to point out that my debate will not be issue specific but general because earlier on in the day, the hon. Minister of Tourism already elucidated on the Government’s position in respect to what the Motion now seeks to urge the Executive to do.


Madam Speaker, I am discussing or debating this afternoon under the rubric or theme: “Do to others what you would like them do to you.”


Madam Speaker, firstly, this Motion is a good because it is giving a living testament of the failures of the Patriotic Front (PF).


Mr Nkombo: Tell them.


Mr Mweetwa: This is because they should have crafted and finalised this Community-Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM) Policy. They were seated in office for ten years doing nothing.


Madam Speaker, it is on the Floor of this House where, when we were on your left, we brought genuinely valid and progressive Motions. I recall I was one of those who had the enthusiasm to bring Motions, such as a Motion to amend the Public Order Act. I moved that Motion on the Floor of this House, a very progressive one because we realised that the PF was arm twisting the operations of the Zambia Police. They had introduced political interference in the way the police were executing their duties. They refused to support that Motion saying it was unnecessary and that we were pushing an open door because the Government was already in the process of amending the Public Order Act, something which they failed to do until they were removed from office.


Madam Speaker, this same PF rejected a Motion which was moved on the Floor of the House, incidentally by me, to urge the Executive to end political violence because there was too much violence under the leadership of PF. So, we thought it would help by bringing a Motion to urge them to put measures to end political violence. The only thing that happened was the escalation of violence. Under this PF Government, violence is their legacy and that is why the people of Zambia voted them out.


Hon. Government Members: Hammer!


Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I brought a Motion to this House to urge the Executive not to remove meal allowances for students. They called such a Motion frivolous, vexatious, unnecessary and wasting taxpayer’s time here. They used all sorts of words at their disposal to demean us, then as the Opposition. This is because they did not think that they would come and sit on your left. Now, these people, the PF are urging us the Executive to be able to support their Motion.


Madam Speaker, there is no Motion which they supported until we lost appetite of bringing Motions to this House. Such arrogance like that of the PF then as the ruling party is very costly because the people are watching the transactions of business here. What we do here, we are not doing it for the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the PF but, we are doing it for the nation.


Madam, I am glad that after watching the political misconduct of PF on the Floor of this House, the people voted them out. I believe they are not supposed to come back anywhere near the corridors of power because we do not want violence to come back to Zambia. We do not want. We do not want lawlessness to come back to Zambia. We do not want corruption to be rampant. His Excellency the President of the Republic has declared war against corruption. Such Motions under the PF regime were thrown out. They were also thrown out by the people for rejecting Motions like this. Now, as I stand here looking at PF, I am very remorseful. Look at them.




The First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Hon. Minister, can you please stick to the Motion at hand because it is like you are now talking about other people. You can continue hon. Minister.


Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. The Motion has already been addressed by the hon. Minister of Tourism in terms of content. Therefore, I must wind up by saying that when people went to vote on 12th August, 2021 and brought in the New Dawn Administration, they hoped that we, as a country and indeed as Parliament, will change the way we do things for the better to enhance democracy in the House and make the Opposition relevant to this House. That is what it should be because any Government that has to succeed must have a vibrant opposition.


Madam, so, when they bring a good Motion, why would the New Dawn Administration led-Government reject such a Motion? Why? We would be failing the people of Zambia and discouraging ideas that could be advisory to Government. To urge, is simply to encourage someone and the one who is urged can do or not do anything. Fortunately, the hon. Minister of Tourism has already said that what the Motion is urging has already been done. Therefore, there is no point in further debating this. We support this Motion.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I pledge not to go into political grandstanding, which I know I can effectively do. For the sake of this important Motion that is before the House, I want to state in the first place that I support it. If we talk about natural resources, it is array of things that include minerals, fish species, flora and fauna.


Madam, what the hon. Minister said earlier on what the Motion intends to do is in good spirit. I do not find anything wrong with the Motion colliding with the intention of Government to improve the National Community-Based Natural Resources Management (CBNRM) Policy.


Madam, the Motion is intending to cure among other things, sense of belonging in the community. Sometimes, you will find that the wealth in a community is tapped by those who do not belong to that particular community. So, when people go to tap things like timber, those who belong to that particular community remains poor and bitter.


Madam Speaker, the Motion is also addressing wealth creation because there must be a sense of belonging between the community and the stakeholders who target the resources in order to benefit in one way or the other.


Madam Speaker, currently in Zambia, we pride in saying that Zambia is rich in resources and indeed, I agree with that maxim. If Zambia is rich in resources, the question we need to ask ourselves is that: “How are these resources benefiting the communities, which are actually custodians of those resources?”


Madam Speaker, I recall the debate on the Sioma Ngwezi National Park where at some point, the Government took up steps to put that game park under private hands. This is where people were stopped from getting firewood and other resources from that game park, and yet, they belonged to that community.


Madam Speaker, what that brings is an issue where a community surrounding a resource base starts looking at such resources as alien. That leads too situational poverty in our country which later on, turns into generational poverty.


Madam Speaker, the Motion at hand is addressing generational poverty in more than one area. One of the areas that this Motion is addressing is putting a background mind-set of conservation in the community. This would have created a sense of responsibility, where communities would feel those resources belong to them unlike the opposite.


Madam Speaker, I also need to state that the Motion at hand, although, the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central, who is the Minister for Southern Province almost diluted it, on a lighter note, is actually streamlining the relationship between the duty-bearer, who is the Government and the right holder, who are the citizenry in the community. We have seen that this Motion is going to cure many things, even in terms of relationships amongst the community, the Government institutions and agencies because they will factor in some chemistry where there will be an entry point for them to manage fish and minerals. We have had situations in this country where a game park –


Ms Kasune: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order has been raised.


Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member debating is really shouting. He knows very well that this Motion has actually been supported by the Executive and yet, he is being emotive and really just being on top of his voice. Therefore, I am wondering whether that is in order with the decorum of this House...




Ms Kasune:...given the fact that actually, the Executive is right ahead of this Motion.


I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Keembe, you did not cite the Standing Order No. that has been breached, but her request is for the hon. Member to try to lower his voice because it is too high.


Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I oblige. On a lighter note, where I come from, I was told to project my voice and I think there is nothing emotive about it. I am not annoyed and I think by now, the hon. Member should know that this is how I speak. I will continue though not disturbed.


Madam Speaker, what I was trying to address before I was disturbed was the relationship between the Government and the citizenry. We have seen that out of the same mismanagement of national resources in some way, which could be on the side of the citizenry, deaths and injuries have been recorded, as has been mentioned by the hon. Minister of Tourism. Most of those injuries have been recorded as a result of people wanting to survive using natural resources.


Madam Speaker, when people want to survive using natural resources, sometimes, the law and the environmental policy would become so prohibitive such that people would want to take short cuts which, are in conflict with the law. When short cuts have been taken, at the end of the day, the Law Enforcement Agency would be in charge of the law and the community will see that the act of survival that is being undertaken is the normal one. At the end of the day, deaths and injuries would continue in that area.


Madam Speaker, I want to give an example of a game park which houses minerals like precious stones. I have had problems with a scenario where people would want to access minerals in a game park. So, there is that conflict. I think that such a Motion will venture into curing such bottlenecks such that there will be harmony in managing species in a particular area.


Madam Speaker, I dream of a day when conservation methods for fish – Where I come from, if the Government says that the kind of nets that have to be used are these, the community will have to agree because already, there is an existing relationship between the duty-bearer and the right holder. This particular Motion just intends to do that.


Madam Speaker, this Motion concerns all of us because it has to do with resources. We can talk until we talk no more. I therefore, want to put it on record that the people of Chilubi are in support of this Motion because it intends to cure the bottlenecks that exist in the management of our natural resources.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I want to say three things. To begin with, is that the Motion does address the paradox of a country like ours, that is endowed with so much natural resource but has poor citizens. The second one is that every dark cloud does have a silver lining and this is referring to the mover of the Motion, and I will try and elaborate. The third one is addressing the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi and I describe his debate as razzmatazz, which means a very noisy and showy display.



Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika for moving this Motion. Every dark cloud having a silver lining really means that no matter how bad a situation may seem, there is a positive side to it. I had a difficult impression about the hon. Member who moved this Motion for having once called us rats in the past, in life ...




Mr Nkombo: …but I want to demonstrate to him that we rise above these things by supporting his Motion.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I will go to my next quotation of a paradox why a country with so much resource can have poor citizens. This particular Motion does address the reason there should be no poor people in Mambwe District of Malambo Constituency, Liuwa, Itezhi-Tezhi and Chilubi, where my brother who displayed some razzmatazz comes from, where they have depleted all the fish in Lake Bangweulu. Is it Bangweulu, where you cross from Samfya to go to Chilubi? You cannot find fish, a resource that should be in there and enjoyed by the people. It also escalates into the mining area, where the mining is, where we do not see any local beneficiation for the people who are the original owners of the areas where they were born.


Madam Speaker, I do recall that under the Patriotic Front (PF), this same PF...


Hon. Government Members: Which one?




Mr Nkombo: …this one, in Mambwe District, the chief there spent a painstaking two weeks with his subjects protesting because the PF were translocating buffalos to somewhere out of this country, denying people of that constituency the right to live comfortably.


Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I want to drive this House to a short example of a tribe in South Africa called the Royal Basarwa, who live in Rustenburg. Those are an example of how the Community-Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM) can be managed. The Royal Basarwa built one of the most splendid stadium from the natural resource in this world.


Madam Speaker, I also want to give an example of a San national of Botswana, a pigmy, they were called, his name is Roy Sesana, who stood to make sure that those Bushmen in Botswana enjoyed the full value of the endowment that God gave them. This country is very wealthy but with poor citizens. We are about to unlock this paradox as the United Party for National Development (UPND) to make sure that the local beneficiation of those who God put, not by accident, to be born in those areas. Is it not the PF who denied its citizens?


This is why they lost the elections. Mark my lips. They banned the harvest of Mukula, yet they were enjoying the exports of Mukula. Some of them are not here because of that recklessness.


Madam Speaker, if you do a stock-check, you will see that the chiefs who shepherded their flock to vote for us, made a statement on the recklessness of this group of people here.


Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam.


Mr Nkombo: They banned Mukula, yet they were moving it at night.


Mr Chilangwa: Point of order, iwe!




Mr Nkombo: I recall that at one point – Madam, this is the razzmatazz behaviour that I earlier described. It looks like it is contagious. You see the way the – The closeness of colleagues there is –


Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have some order!


Mr Fube: The hon. Minister is not in order.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, I was about to come to you, but you reacted. You have to wait until you are given the opportunity to raise the point of order.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have the opportunity to raise a point of order, but you have to wait to be called upon.


Continue, hon. Minister.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I was saying that the razzmatazz behaviour appears to be contagious like influenza. If you sneeze, you are likely to contaminate the next person. I started by saying that every dark cloud has a silver lining.


Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised. Hon. Chilangwa, it is your turn.


Mr Chilangwa remained seated.


Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order based on Standing Order 65(e), on the use of unparliamentary language and offensive expressions. I find the way the hon. Minister is referring to me and other hon. Members very offensive and I am offended. Is the hon. Minister in order to use offensive terms in the House, to an extent where the decorum of the House is affected? If a particular safety valve is not given, I may also react in a particular way. So, is the hon. Minister in order to really refer to me in that manner? We do not want to reach a stage where the House is disorderly and it becomes physical.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let me guide that when we are discussing in here, the people who voted for you are listening. So, let us try to maintain the decorum of this House. We might have a situation where those on the right will say something and throw it to those on the right, who will throw it to those on the left. So, it will be a vicious circle. Let us try to avoid words that will injure one another. Like I guided, let us stick to the Motion.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: What was the word that was used?


Hon. Opposition Members: He said razzmatazz.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


I hear the hon. Minister used an unparliamentary word. Hon. Minister, withdraw that word and replace it with another one. 


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, with pleasure. Razzmatazz means noisy and showy. I do not know what is offensive about that, but I withdraw it with pleasure.


Madam Speaker, the local beneficiation of our people who were born in certain localities endowed with certain wealth must have full benefit of that wealth, like in Mpika, where my young colleague comes from.


Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam.


Hon. Government Members: Aah!


Mr Fube: I am the one who is injured.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Mr Nkombo: That is the razzmatazz I was talking about.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have some order!


 I do not see what the problem is because the hon. Minister clearly stated that he had withdrawn the word.


Mr Fube interjected.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, he did. Let us try to be attentive.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have some order! Let us continue with the debate. I think we are wasting more time on points of order, like I indicated in the beginning. So, no more points of order until tomorrow.


Continue, hon. Minister.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, for the benefit of my colleague from nanikane, ...




Mr Nkombo: ... Chilubi Island, nifunyapo ‘razzmatazz’. I have withdrawn the word.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Meaning?


Mr Nkombo: I have withdrawn the word ‘razzmatazz’ in my description of him.


Madam Speaker, on a serious note, we should be taking examples from one another. The rats are now responding to a Motion moved by a human being and they are agreeing that the Motion is progressive. He is banging an open door.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, do you want me to elaborate?


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes!


Mr Nkombo: We, from this side, were once called rats by the mover of the Motion and he cannot – oh, the bee has come back.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!


Hon. Government Member: No, cockroaches.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: We do not have rats in this House. We only have hon. Members and hon. Ministers. That is who we have in this House.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw that because of my amnesia. I forgot. The hon. Member for Mpika called us cockroaches, as a matter of fact, and not rats.


Madam Speaker, the cockroaches are agreeing to a progressive Motion because it is going to uplift the living standards of our people.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister! I think –


Mr Nkombo: I thank you very much for the opportunity, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! I think the ending was not good. Withdraw the word ‘cockroach.’ You are in the new regime where you respect all hon. Members of Parliament in this House.


Mr Nkombo: Nimfunyapo! I withdraw the word ‘cockroaches’, which the mover of the Motion once upon a time referred to us in the Government. I gladly withdraw the words ‘cockroach’ and ‘rats’ with pleasure.


Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I thank the hon. Member for Mpika Central for moving such a non-contentious Motion. I also thank the seconder of this Motion.


Madam Speaker, the implementation of the National Community-Based Natural Resources Management (CBNRM) Policy associates with the good people of Nalolo so much in the sense that Western Province, in which Nalolo is located, has so much Rosewood and Mukula logs leaving the province. The province remains the poorest. I agree with my fellow hon. Members who have debated that this policy was long overdue. We have a lot of Rosewood coming out of Western Province including Nalolo Constituency, but the pupils there do not have desks.



Madam Speaker, we need a policy that encourages social corporate responsibility techniques that are modern with practice. We cannot have so many natural resources, for example wood, and fail to have a company that can make at least ten desks. So, I unreservedly support this Motion and I agree that successive Governments should have implemented it. However, I believe that as hon. Members, we must look at the present. I feel that we must change the narrative of politics. Where we politick, we must discuss what can be done now. This is a progressive Motion. If we are to change the narrative of this country, we must discuss policy and not politics.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours




Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I categorically stated that the Motion is non-controversial. I thank the hon. Minister of Tourism who has pre-empted the Motion. I do not know whether it is by plan or design, but I thank him for his support.


Madam Speaker, some trees that take 100 years to grow are being sold at K5 in the Western Province. I have seen this in my constituency that the control of forests by the community, as provided by the current Forest Act, which does not have the support of what we are debating today, is allowing a situation where natural resources are not being harnessed by the local people. If a tree takes 100 years to grow and the community sells it at K5, it calls for a serious level of responsibility for us as elected representatives of the people to unreservedly support this Motion.


Madam Speaker, I will look at it from this angle. In the reign of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, we had unexplained huge exports of the Mukula logs. However, in the constituency of my elder brother Brig-Gen. Sitwala, the people of Kaoma do not even look like they have Mukula in the constituency. So, I support the introduction of this policy in the context that it is time that this country fully utilised its national resources. We talk about being a wealthy nation and being rich, but the people remain poor.


Madam Speaker, I will also look at it from a CBNRM Policy in the context of fisheries and water resources. In the constituency I represent, fish is depleting because the community is allowing poor fishing practices like the use of mosquito nets, for example. If we went to the Western Province, we will not see the famous Mongu fish as it used to be. That is why we need to urgently support this Motion.


Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Minister that this should not be rhetoric. There must be a timeframe for this policy to be actualised because the clarion call for the people of this country to benefit from their natural resources is very urgent and I believe that the New Dawn Government is equal to that task.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, looking at the potential of growing rice in the Western Province, we do not have integrated farming systems. A proper CBNRM Policy encourages integrated farming systems, where we can have the rice bran from the rice being fed to the fish when there is a fish ban. However, with the current status of affairs, fish bans are effected but when they are lifted, the rivers look more depleted than ever before.


Madam Speaker, I would like to conclude my debate by saying that I support this Motion and I thank the hon. Minister for equally pre-empting it. The people of Nalolo only pray that the New Dawn Government will walk the talk because the sacred responsibility of leadership is more practical than politicking. This policy, if implemented to the latter, will be a game changer in the economic affairs of this country.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, it is not usually my nature to debate when my successors are here, but I just want to raise two or three issues.


Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion ably moved by the hon. Member for Mpika Central, I want to put it on record that I commend President Hakainde Hichilema for choosing the hon. Minister of Tourism who understands the sector. We worked very well and he understands the stage at which the policy is very well.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Chitotela: For those who may not know, he was the Chairman for the Livingstone Tourism Association, the Board Chairperson for the Tourism Development Fund and a member of the Wildlife Licensing Committee. He is very able.


Madam Speaker, the Motion on the Floor is urging the Government to expedite a policy that was supposed to be launched in May this year. The policy was concluded and submitted to the Cabinet and is awaiting its approval and the presidential launch. I believe that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has an easy task to launch this policy, probably before the end of this year. Stakeholders, chiefs and operators in various areas have been impatient and want this policy to be launched so that the people living with wildlife can begin benefiting. What delayed its launch was the sharing mechanism and that was agreed upon. The Statutory Instrument (SI) in draft form was sent to the Ministry of Justice. I believe by now, the hon. Minister of Justice has done justice to the SI by allowing the hon. Minister of Tourism to assent and have the policy launched so that our people can begin benefiting from what has been done.


Madam Speaker, I was taken aback when I heard many politics on economic issues. Our colleagues were saying that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government did not do anything. We could have made mistakes and the Zambians voted us out and voted for them. So, it will not do for them to keep referring to the mistakes that the PF made that could have led to the Zambians to vote us out. The Zambians expect the implementation of the things they wanted that led to them not renewing the mandate of the PF. Our friends in the Government have a heavy burden of ensuring that they better the lives of the Zambian people. If they have forgotten, the leadership they have is a depository authority. The Zambian people have deposited their trust and confidence in them. They should not let them down by politicking. They are no longer in the Opposition. They are a Government that is supposed to protect our interests as citizens of this nation.


Madam Speaker, I understand that they may still be in that honeymoon of politicking but that period is gone. We are looking forward to the implementation of what is contained in the policy so that we carry on with our lives that we have deposited in this Government. The Zambian people assessed the Patriotic Front (PF) and the United Party for National Development (UPND) and they thought it would be good for them to deposit their interest in the UPND. The hon. Members of the UPND cannot, therefore, continue to say, the PF did not do this and that. Yes, the Zambian people knew what they were doing and, maybe, that is why we are sitting here.


Mr Chitotela faced the hon. Government Members.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Hon. Member, can we stick to the Motion.


Mr Chitotela turned to face the Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: And that is the right position actually.




Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Madam Speaker, this Motion is very important for the people who live in the Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs). It is also important to those who live with various natural resources. People need to be protected. There has been a lot of money which has been spent in coming up with that policy. The policy was finalised and agreed upon by all stakeholders. What is remaining is an official approval by Cabinet and launch by the President.


Madam Speaker, I hope that my successor, who is very able, will be able to push and Cabinet will support so that quickly, this policy can be launched. I also hope that the Statutory Instrument (SI) on the sharing mechanism will be signed for the benefit of the people who live in these protected areas.


Madam Speaker, I support the Motion and look forward to the quicker implementation and actualisation of the ideas that are contained in that policy.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Hon. Member: Mucaha! Muna! Sakata!




Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for the opportunity ...




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Can we have some order on my right?


Mr Anakoka: debate this Motion. This Motion is urging the Government to do what it is already doing. No wonder our hon. Colleagues on your left, Madam Speaker, have found it very difficult to debate this afternoon. We saw a display of a lot of emotions because they came expecting that a Motion coming from one of their numbers would most certainly be opposed by the party in the Government. To their shock, history has been made this afternoon. This is a Government that does not treat everything that comes from the Opposition as politicking and it is paying attention to this Motion. That is something alien to them. Therefore, they are finding it difficult to even debate their own Motion. They are almost beginning to oppose it because the Government is supporting their own Motion.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can you please stick to the Motion. Talk about what you are thinking about.




Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, this Motion is about management of resources but the mover of the Motion just restricted it to wild life. As pronounced by the President when he addressed this august House on the occasion of the Official Opening of the Thirteenth National Assembly, he spoke about an integrated management policy (IMP) to ensure that the people of this country benefit from their God-given natural resources. The natural resource covers a wide spectrum of areas. The Rosewood and the Mukula are our wood. The Rosewood and the Mukula have been so much abused in the recent past.


Madam Speaker, in fact, in Luena Constituency, areas like Ndanda and Simaa have a lot of Rosewood. Some people have been exporting that Rosewood while the local people are not benefiting. The hon. Minister of Tourism, this afternoon, has told us that the policy to create a harmonious relationship between natural resources and the people so that our communities actually begin to benefit and improve their livelihood is already in draft form, a fact, Madam Speaker, which is even acknowledged by the mover of this Motion. How has he acknowledged it? The mover of the Motion is saying that he is urging the Government to finalise, and not to develop. So, he recognises that the door is already open, but wants to push it to open further.


Madam Speaker, this is the agony that the hon. Colleagues on your left found themselves in. Everything that they failed to do over the last ten years, they now want to be sneaking them in so that they urge the Government to do them in two weeks. This Government is pragmatic.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer wena!


Mr Anakoka: What this Government has been doing is to develop a comprehensive policy as elucidated by the hon. Minister of Tourism this afternoon. We want to make sure that wildlife, water resources and mineral resources – Madam Speaker, when we are talking about wildlife, by the way, it includes bees.




Mr Anakoka: They are part of our natural resources but they are managed in such a way that communities that live in the areas that they are habitat to, are benefiting from those resources.




Madam Speaker, bees contribute a lot. As we know, there is a lot of honey that can be produced and harnessed from a proper management of that particular wildlife. I do not know whether others use bees for other reasons, but the policy that is being developed by this Government is focused on honey production only.




Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, this Motion has come too late, even as we support it. In fact, in the olden days, when we were growing up, if you urged somebody to do something they were already doing, it would earn them a beating.




Mr Anakoka: However, because we are a good Government that wants to take on board all positive suggestions, this Motion is being supported and it is going to be incorporated into the economic development framework that this Government is going to put in place.


Madam Speaker, with regards to wildlife, this country has twenty national parks and thirty-six game management areas (GMAs). When the Patriotic Front (PF) was in power, it did not even think about carrying out a wildlife census. This Government, therefore, is not going to put in place a policy over night because there are a lot of things that it needs to make sure it puts in place before it just rushes into enacting a policy.


Madam Speaker, since this policy is already in draft form, the Government, through the responsible ministry, is obviously going to expedite its completion and this was going to done with or without this Motion. However, because the mover and the seconder of the Motion are clearly showing that they would like to associate themselves with this progressive Government, they are most welcome to crossover.


Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!


Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!


Mr Anakoka: In fact, even the hon. Member who just debated before me, Hon. Chitotela, appears to be trying to join us in the night, but he is welcome to do so during the day.




Mr Anakoka: There is no point in praising the hon. Minister of Tourism. If this Government has seen the talent his is talking about, he better join and associate himself with the talent that he himself can see.


Madam Speaker, I am happy to note that Hon. Chitotela, having been hon. Member of the Executive himself, ...


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, avoid mentioning names.


Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I am well guided.


Madam Speaker, I am happy to note that hon. Members on your left, who were in the Executive in the previous Government, are recognising the reasons they were kicked out or voted out. They are acknowledging that when power is deposited in someone, it is a big responsibility. It is not an opportunity to enrich one self, but to uplift the lives of our people. So, our people who live in GMAs will certainly benefit from the policy that the Ministry of Tourism is working on.


Madam Speaker, with these few words, I wish to agree with the Motion brought on the Floor of this House by an hon. Member of the Opposition that this progressive Government supports the Motion and that it expedites the promulgation of the Policy.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


   Madam First Deputy Speaker: We still have some hon. Members who want to debate, but we are looking at time. So, I am going to invite the hon. Minister of Tourism to say something since this is his ministry. Then, we will proceed to call on the hon. Member for Mpika Central to wind up debate.


The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I think we have had a very eventful afternoon.


Madam Speaker, in response to the Private Member’s Motion on Finalising the National Community Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM) Policy, I wish to state the following:


Madam Speaker, I thank you for granting me the opportunity to contribute to the Motion on Finalising the National (CBNRM) Policy. The Government is in support of the Motion as it has already commenced the process of formulating the National (CBNRM) Policy. This policy seeks to enhance the management and exploitation of natural resources to broaden the benefits to local communities.


Madam Speaker, Zambia has not had a National (CBNRM) Policy, and this has led to the proliferation of non-holistic conservation programmes, leaving the many environmental issues inadequately attended to; and with a duplication of efforts by different ministries, departments and civil society organisations (CSOs).


Madam Speaker, the CBNRM’s approaches and practices are important for the sustainable management of natural resources which, contribute to the socio-economic development of the country. Evidence shows that Zambia has over the past thirty years, implemented the CBNRM in a fragmented way, with ineffective co-ordination, inadequate financing, and limited rights and benefits to local communities. This has contributed to the declining resource base which, if not addressed, will lead to further degradation and loss of valuable natural resources.


Madam Speaker, the implementation of this policy will support the attainment of national development goals and strategies such as the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) and the Vision 2030. It will enable Zambia to realign its natural resource sector in order to meet the development goals through the effective incentive-driven community participation in natural resource management.


Madam Speaker, at the same time, Madam Speaker, it will contribute to the achievement of the overall objective of the various multilateral environment conventions that Zambia has signed, such as the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD), the Convention on International Trade in Wild Species of Flora and Fauna (CITES), Wetlands Convention, and other natural resources related multilateral environmental agreements (MEAs).


Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the Government is in support of the Motion. As this august House may have heard, the Government is in the process of formulating the National (CBNRM) Policy, and has reached an advanced stage as the document is ready for tabling for Cabinet’s approval. Once approved, the document will be printed, launched and disseminated for enforcement for all to see what the New Dawn Government is doing.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Mpika an opportunity to, once again, add their voice on this matter.


Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I am inspired by the Republican Vice-President, Her Honour, Madam W. K. Nalumango, who has shown us the way to apologise unreservedly. I want, Madam Speaker, on the Floor of this House, for the third time, to apologise unreservedly and sincerely for the video that went viral, ...


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kapyanga: ... which was edited in all manner to suit some people’s situation. I was called by the police and was interrogated. Indeed, they found that the video was edited. 


Madam Speaker, regardless of the circumstances, for the third time, I am apologising to the nation and to all the people of Zambia, who might have been hurt by that video. I am on my knees apologising for that video.


Hon. Government Members: Kneel down!


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I also want to thank the seconder of the Motion for having seconded the Motion –


Hon. Member: Remove the mask!


Mr Kapyanga: I do not want to spread the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


Can you give him chance to wind up?


Mr Kapyanga: I also want to thank hon. Members of Parliament, including those from the Executive, for having supported this non-controversial Motion for the best interest of our country.


Madam Speaker, I also thank you for giving me this opportunity to move this Motion that will benefit the people we represent, and in my case, the people of Mpika in Mukungule and Nabwalya chiefdoms.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Question put and agreed to.









VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Media – K59,466,509)


(Consideration resumed)


The Minister of Information and Media (Ms Kasanda): Mr Chairperson, before the House adjourned, I was saying that out of the said figure, the Media Development, Standards and Regulation Programme has been allocated K27.3 million to ensure growth in the media industry through provision of appropriate legal and policy frameworks. This allocation will partly be credited directly as grants to the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) and the Zambia Institute of Mass Communication Educational Trust (ZAMCOM) to sustain their operations.


Mr Chairman, the other part of this allocation will go towards the development and review of media laws as well as increasing geographical presence of both electronic and print media in the country. Under this programme, the ministry will revise and present three Bills namely; Access to Information, Zambia Media Council (ZAMEC) and Zambia Public Relations Associations (ZAPRA).


Mr Chairman, additionally, the ministry will facilitate the process of repealing and replacing the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) Act in order to, among others, respond to changes in the broadcasting and information technology sector such as digital migration and also address the lacunae in the Act. The ministry will also propose legislation to guarantee editorial independence on the public media. The ministry will further propose legislation to address signal and content distribution following the country’s migration from the analogue to the digital Terrestrial Television Transmission.


Mr Chairman, in order for the ministry to further expand the media outreach and explain Government programmes and projects, information services and management programme has been allocated K17.8 million for the provision of accurate news and information. Further, this will also bring about the establishment of the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) television channel.


Mr Chairman, Management and Support Services Programme has been allocated K14.4 million to provide support services in the ministry’s technical departments towards the implementation of programmes and projects.


Mr Chairman, to fully implement its mandate of media development and information dissemination on Government programmes and projects, my ministry will also require an extra K176 million as a supplementary budget to this august House for approval. Otherwise, the above challenges might not fully be eradicated and my ministry will not be able to attain planned objectives.


Mr Chairman, Zambia Institute of Mass Communication (ZAMCOM) shall consolidate in-service training and play a key role in supporting media ethics and professionalism. It will also continue professional programmes that have since been developed to start the programmes.


Mr Chairman, the New Dawn Administration under the leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema places high premium on media development, promotion of the free and independent media that hinges on self regulation and access to information.


Mr Chairman, I therefore, appeal to hon. Members of this august House to support the 2022 Estimate for the Ministry of Information and Media.


Mr Chairman, I beg to move.


Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Chairman, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate the Budget for the Ministry of Information and Media.


Mr Chairman, I will be a man of very few words, just to put context to what the hon. Minister has already outlined as to how her ministry is going to operate in this coming year, considering the amounts that have been allocated to it.


Mr Chairman, what comes into mind is the fact that the New Daw Government has come to encourage free media. Freedom has come to stay in that it can even be felt where each and everyone can make comments either to criticise or advise Government but, in a responsible manner. All those are permissible. We thank the President that he came to this House and made those important pronouncements.  He has also continued to encourage everyone to ensure that the media is independent. That being the case, I am glad that amounts have been allocated to regulatory institutions like the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) and those that will enhance skills in media institutions that are aligned to the Government, that will enhance skills in the media sector so that our professionals in the media are well-equipped and will report responsibly.


Mr Chairman, however, some caution needs to be made. There is a lot that went into this sector in the previous years, especially when our hon. Colleagues on your left hand side were in charge of affairs in the country. There was quite some chaos. Media houses were closed at will. Anybody who looked like he or she was against the Government faced the wrath of the Government power. I can cite examples but because we are not allowed to mention names in this House, I may not go that route.


However, we all know what happened in the media sector. We know how many radio stations and newspaper houses were closed. Television (TV) stations that reported objectively were viewed as though they were Opposition political parties. They were considered to be siding with the Opposition. I do not envisage that kind of situation in the New Dawn Government. We expect everything to be done professionally. Therefore, what has been allocated in that Budget is to enhance professionalism in the media sector. Therefore, we expect a better way of doing things in this sector.


Mr Chairman, just a word of caution. I think from time immemorial, when we got independence, there has always been an attempt to bring legislation for media self regulation. Each successive Government has either frustrated or slowed the process of making sure this is realised. I implore my Government to ensure that this is fully actualised. The pieces of legislation that have been proposed in the Budget or in the hon. Minister’s speech, must be brought to this House and should be supported by both sides. All this is aimed at enhancing freedom of media. We all know that the media is so important, especially to the work that we do. How else will the people in Nyakuleng’a know what is going on if we do not have media houses?


Mr Chairman, I ask the hon. Minister of Information and Media to find a way of improving radio communication, especially in the rural areas. Our public broadcaster, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), is struggling. I am also aware that the institution is grappling with a lot of debt and it is barely surviving. Whatever is owed to it is mainly by Government institutions that enjoy services that it provides. Let us correct the situation. ZNBC needs to be a viable business. The Government institutions have been the major culprits that are sinking that institution because instead of it getting paid for the service it provides, the Government institutions either ignore or delay to pay. The broadcaster has operating costs that it needs to meet and this is making it to operate on negative working capital. We need to sort out that anomaly at ZNBC. The radio reception at Radio 1, which is so important, also needs to be worked on.


Mr Chairperson, I am one of those who enjoy communicating with the people in Zambezi in Katonto. They are so pleased to hear me explain that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has now been increased. I would be explaining how we are going to allocate the CDF and the like. There are so many policies that are made by the Government. Through ZNBC Radio 1, people in Katejhi and Nyakuleng’a will understand. I would go on radio and speak in the local language and the people will understand. Therefore, we need to enhance this. We need to improve the transmitters in those far-flung areas so that we can disseminate this information. How else shall we disseminate these good Government policies if we are not communicating to those people in the rural areas? This is a very important avenue for communicating Government policies. Therefore, it must be viewed as such.


Mr Chairperson, without wasting much of your time, I thought I should make mention of these things which are so important. The hon. Minister should please take note of these things which I have outlined because they benefit all of us, especially us from rural constituencies.


Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


The Deputy Chairperson called upon Mr Kang’ombe.


Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I am assuming it is Christopher Kang’ombe.




Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Chairperson, allow me to begin by thanking the hon. Minister of Information and Media for that statement. Yesterday evening and this evening, the hon. Minister has outlined the focus areas and has also indicated, today, that her ministry will require a Supplementary Budget. I have taken note of the amount which the hon. Minister has indicated.


Mr Chairperson, my first observation is that we need to have that amount consolidated into any other ministry that will require a Supplementary Budget. It will be the duty of this House to scrutinise the request and obviously, support the ministry in ensuring that the activities they want to undertake under the Supplementary Budget are supported. So, it will be necessary that at an appropriate time, before the window closes, we are told what programmes will be undertaken through the Supplementary Budget so that it makes our work easy. We do not want to be told next year, that such and such activities could not be undertaken because they did not have Supplementary Funds.


Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister should be rest assured that with a list of activities well-outlined, she will have my full support as someone who, for the last fifteen years, has enjoyed working with the media. I think one of the key drivers in modern leadership is that one must be an interactive leader, both with the public and private media. I think public media needs to raise the quality of information dissemination. This is why I support the Budget provisions under the Ministry of Information and Media.


Mr Chairperson, secondly, on page 274 of the Yellow Book, there are four Bills that the ministry intends to review or develop in the coming year. The hon. Minister today, has only referred to the Access to Information Bill, the Zambia Media Council Bill and the Zambia Public Relations Bill. I did not pick the fourth Bill and I think it will be necessary that the House is informed on which fourth Bill will be brought to the House so that it is easy for all of us who are supporting this Budget to be ready to contribute to those particular Bills. I think it is necessary that we get the fourth Bill that needs to be considered under her ministry. That way, the public and parliamentarians will be aware. I think on page 274 of the Yellow Book, it says four Bills. It is quite consistent because even on the next page, it says that four Bills will be developed.


Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has indicated the desire to see editorial independence from public media houses. I am not trained as a journalist but even as we look at the importance of editorial independence, I think it is important that the right information about public expenditure is disseminated. Yes, we want editorial independence in the context which people explain it but sometimes, it is also important that there is adequate information coming out of the public media, in terms of all Government agencies that are spending public money because our role is to approve public money. I think what we are approving before Parliament adjourns is public money.


Mr Chairperson, it is important that as we discuss editorial independence, the public media is well-guided in terms of information dissemination. Money is being spent across all the ten provinces of Zambia. Now, are we getting the right information about the roads that are being worked on? Are we getting the right information about the many projects that have been implemented, not just in the last ten years? I know everyone is obsessed with the last ten years, but I think we have had the last ten, fifteen, twenty and the last twenty-five years when public money has been spent on various projects. How many power generating plants have been built across Zambia? I think it is important that as we discuss editorial independence, we also encourage public media to be innovative and to pick the right information for the public.


Lastly, Mr Chairperson, on page 266 of the Yellow Book, allow me to read very quickly the Budget summary, Head 26 reads:


“The Ministry of Information and Media will embark on pursuing the objectives and targets as set out in the draft Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).”


Mr Chairperson, I am happy once again, that there is reference to the 8NDP. Unfortunately, we do not have the 8NDP in place. What we have is the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP). It will be necessary, as we approve the allocation to the Ministry of Information and Media, that we are told where the draft 8NDP is. This is because if the goals have to be aligned to the objectives in the ministry, it is necessary that this House is made aware of what is in the draft 8NDP because that summarises what the hon. Minister is asking us to approve. 


Mr Chairperson, I hope that at an appropriate time and in the soonest possible time, we can be given a copy of even an extract of what those objectives are. We do not know if they are the ones appearing in the Yellow Book or they are appearing elsewhere. However, it will be necessary for the authority to explain these Budget lines to us. We need to be told what those objectives are and how they are aligned to the 8NDP.


Mr Chairperson, I beg to submit.


The Deputy Chairperson: In the interest of time, I will pick one PF hon. Member and one UPND hon. Member. I will use my discretion. I know it is inherent in us, hon. Members to debate all the time but his Head under discussion now should have been concluded yesterday. It is against this background that we are running out of time and we need to move fast.


Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I appreciate an elaborate policy statement that precedes Head 26 that we are debating today; the Ministry of Information and Media. Allow me to divide my debate into technological environment, economic environment, access to information, legal environment, and socio-political environment.


Mr Chairperson, I want to start with the social political environment. The hon. Minister did indicate that the Government has intentions to free the media and in our democracy it is referred to as the fourth estate. I think I do agree that there have been pronouncements to that extent to free the media.


Sir, if we are to follow the social political environment as it stands, I think the current coverage by the public media does not correspond to the pronouncements made, especially the number of minutes being given to some political players or the volume of stories in the Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail newspapers. When we calculate the coverage, there is no balancing of political players and something is amiss there.


Sir, this brings me to the issue of editorial independence of the public media, especially when we talk about what is already included in the tables. I know that when we start going into details, most of us will learn that what is already included about our main articles or news items will be covered and the like. When it comes to the print media, I think it is more biased on what should act as a front to only market the Government’s programmes, which shrinks the space for other political players. As I said, when we follow the issue of the social political environment, I think it is lacking in that regard.


Sir, I want to appreciate the scope of access to information. The media fraternity has really celebrated and is expectant of the scores that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is likely to make as it is inscribed in their 2021 State of the Media in the Nation, a publication for the Media Institute for Southern Africa (MISA), which has also appreciated the current Minister of Information and Media. They are looking forward to making sure that the Access to Information Bill is brought to the House as soon as possible. 


Sir, I did indicate earlier that I would also hint on the economic environment. Currently, when we say the media, there must also be some safety valve and control over a non-traditional media like the social media, which has been allowed to go wild in some way. I want to say that when it comes to the issue of the economic environment, the social media is not being helpful. The way the social media is projecting the country is not in the manner that can attract any foreign direct investments in a normal situation, especially that the country is portrayed as corrupt and quite polluted in many areas. I think that is something that needs to be brought to our attention so that it is addressed.


Sir, constitutionally, I am also a bit at pain. Looking at it, the tandem was properly followed. We had the Expanded Budget Committee to present the Budget as the procedure entails. However, I think there is still a lacuna in as far as the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) is concerned. This is because that is a prerequisite for us to venture into debating the Budget that should be tabled before this House. We availed the content of the 8NDP in order for us to know and make reference to it especially that in the President’s Address, the President referred to the content of what should be in the 8NDP.


Sir, consistently, the hon. Minister has also referred to what the 8NDP is in his Budget Speech. Presumably, it was supposed to be launched around June or July, so that when we reached this stage, we could have had that document. The Budget is supposed to feed into or respond to pillars that are laid in the 8NDP.


Mr Chairperson, having said that, allow me to talk about the technological environment. I feel that when it comes to public interface, much of it was just under the migration. We know that we are in an information age and much of the investment has to be done.


Sir, I am almost having the temptation to go into the Yellow Book and fish out certain issues that will be grey areas in terms of addressing the technological environment. We know that public media is public because it serves the interest of everybody. Public media has a commercial aspect in it. Public media is more preferred in terms of adverts and many factors. There by, it should have a self investing way of acquiring technological equipment as to respond to the current environment. However, what we have seen is that sometimes, public media does not run at par with other media houses that are coming up. 


Sir, I can give an example of the time when we were still debating about digital migration. Some of the private sector-based media houses were far ahead of the public media houses even in terms of coverage. When it came to digital coverage, the private sector was covering much as opposed to the public media.


Sir, I want to end by agreeing with what one of the hon. Members said that access to media, especially through radio, which covers among other things, local content, is very important and that we need to venture in. There is need that in the Supplementary Budget, such is considered so that reception for Radio 1 and Radio 2 in Chilubi and many other areas also improves. The seven languages that are being floated are not being of benefit to the people and are not being used properly because there are hiccups in the local content somehow.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You have run out of time.


Mr Fube: I did not finish my time.


Hon. Member: He still has six seconds.


The Deputy Chairperson: You still have six seconds? Alright, going forward we will be moving very fast. We have really run out of time. The enormity of us missing on time cannot be over-emphasised. So, we will be moving fast so that we do as many Heads as we can.


Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairman, I will help you save the time that you badly need because, without reservation, I want to support the Budget of the Ministry of Information and Media.


Sir, according to the programmes that have been outlined, the people of Kafue believe that we are on the right trajectory. Therefore, I think there is no need to say a lot more than just maybe underscoring two important points that I wanted to touch on.


Firstly, it is what my colleague from Zambezi East has already said. This is about the previous attempts at coming up with reforms for media self regulation. Indeed, this has been an attempt that has not seen any clear conclusion, in the same way as the Access to Information Bill.


Sir, it will be a very big plus for the New Dawn Government if we can make some very definitive steps in this direction and beat the record of the previous Governments that have only made attempts and not successfully implemented these. After all, when passed, the Freedom of Information Act, will be in full support and enhance our attempts to fight corruption. It will enhance transparency and good governance. All these things are in line with our aspirations as a party in Government. I therefore, strongly urge the hon. Minister responsible to take keen interest in these matters because, sometimes, it is actually the technocrats that have let us down by not taking the necessary actions. If the hon. Minister can make constant follow-ups, then these things will come to pass and we shall have credit as the Government.


Mr Chairperson, the second one that I just wanted to talk about also, as we talk about all these freedoms of expression and information, is that there will be need while working with other players to actually enhance the implementation of cyber laws in order to curb cyber crimes and also, to deal with those people who are engaged in cyber bullying. Our youths have tended to go to town insulting and propagating unpalatable language especially on social media. So, we need to ensure that the ministry works hand in hand with the relevant Government wings to ensure that we curb these vices of cyber bullying and also, different forms of cyber crime to which our people have fallen prey.


With those few remarks, I beg to support the vote.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Ms Kasanda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have debated. I have taken note of the submissions by Hon. Kambita. I am glad that he attaches high importance to this ministry. I just want to answer to a few submissions that were put across. To answer to Hon. Kambita’s submission – Can you hear me there, Hon. Kambita?


Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!


Ms Kasanda: Mr Chairperson, in his submission or debate, he spoke about media houses being closed, which I am very much aware of. I want to assure the hon. Member that it is a thing of the past. That will not happen in this ministry. We will make sure that our people are responsible. We want to make sure that our media houses and journalists are responsible and we have been engaging them. Next week, we should be having meetings with the media owners so that we can agree on a few ethics that we can be working on.


Mr Chairperson, he also spoke about the huge Budget that we have as the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC). Yes, I agree with him that ZNBC has a huge debt at the moment but we are working around that debt to make sure that we start generating income.


Mr Chairperson, with regards to Hon. Kang’ombe’s submission, indeed, as the ministry, we will be interacting with the public media as well as the private media. I think we are already on course. For the Supplementary Budget that he spoke about, we need about 116 vehicles for all the districts. We also need modern equipment. As the hon. Member may be aware, I am sure he has seen what is happening in most of the provinces. They do not have any equipment to use. As they report the news, they usually use their mobile phones and that is what we are looking at in the Supplementary Budget. The hon. Member also spoke about the fourth Bill which is the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) Act.


Mr Chairperson, I also took note of Hon. Fube’s concerns. We want to assure him as the Ministry of Information and Media that, that is the narrative that we want to change. As the New Dawn Government and as the new Government in office, we want to make sure that we change the narrative and make sure that we are not biased. We want everybody to enjoy the freedom that the President has pronounced on several occasions. Not only from the pronouncements by the Republican President of this country, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, but also, from the pronouncements by the hon. Minister of Information and Media. That is a concern that I have heard from him and we will definitely work on it.


Mr Chairperson, should the hon. Member have any issues of not being covered, he is free to come to my office or call upon me at any given time. I have a very great team that I work with and he is free to engage them.


Sir, I also heard him talk about content as well. As he is aware, content is very expensive and we are actually working around that as well. The ZNBC actually owes a lot of money and the fact that I have spoken about how much we owe, I can assure the hon. Member that we will definitely make sure that we have the best content once we start generating income. We want to complete with the rest of other media houses as well. We want to bring the best content. Right now, we are looking for money of about K100 million for us to actually buy content. Once we are able to do that, the hon. Member will be able to see how much the ZNBC is going to change and bring in very good content.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


The hon. Member’s time expired.


Vote 26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 44 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Services – K51,100,549).


The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2021 Budget of my ministry.


Mr Chairperson, the mandate of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is as outlined in the Government Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021, which spells out the portfolio functions as follows:


  1. Labour policy;
  2. Industrial and Labour Relations;
  3. Employment Policy;
  4. Social Security Policy;
  5. Social Safety Net;
  6. Productivity Policy;
  7. Productivity Management;
  8. Occupational Safety and Health Policy;
  9. Occupational Safety and Health Services;
  10. Educational and Occupational Assessment Services; and
  11. Factories.


Mr Chairperson, in terms of statutory functions, the ministry provides policy oversight to the following institutions:


  1. The National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA);
  2. The Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB);
  3. The National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA);
  4. The Occupational Health and Safety Institute (OHSI); and
  5. Kaizen Institute of  Zambia Limited (KIZ).


Performance Review for 2020


Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that in 2020, the ministry issued Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 48 of 2020, which was intended at providing some relief to employers whose business operations had been mostly affected by the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). As at June 2021, of the eighty-three companies that applied for relief, thirty-three were granted approval for exemptions under the SI, which compelled employers to pay a basic salary when an employee is sent on forced leave. The majority of the companies that applied for exemption are from the hospitality industry, followed by the education sector.


Mr Chairperson, the ministry conducted 1,544 labour inspections at a reduced scale due to the restriction imposed due to COVID-19 pandemic. Seven collective labour disputes were settled. The ministry also successfully resolved 7,113 labour complaints. Furthermore, the ministry conducted five sensitisation programmes regarding the National Productivity Policy in selected provinces. The policy is designed to enhance productivity in the country and subsequently, improve industry competitiveness to accelerate inclusive economic growth.


Mr Chairperson, the ministry also conducted the labour force and skills demand surveys. These activities are meant to provide information on key indicators of the labour market as well establish the skill gaps existing in various sectors of the economy.


Mr Chairperson, the ministry facilitated the registration of employed persons on social security schemes, particularly in the informal sector. Further, the ministry continued to sensitise the general public on the importance of social security schemes as cornerstones of descent work and about 30,000 informal workers were captured by the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA).


Mr Chairperson, the ministry continued to enforce laws pertaining to occupational safety and health. A total of 110 occupational safety and health inspections were conducted and 352 accidents and incidents were investigated, mainly in the manufacturing and construction sectors. This was to ensure that work places were free from occupational diseases, hazards and accidents, and occupational safety and health infections.


Major Challenges Faced by the Ministry


Mr Chairperson, in 2021, the ministry was affected by a number of factors, key being the COVID-19 pandemic. The pandemic continued to disrupt some business operations countrywide, thereby, leading to the closure of some enterprises resulting in job losses, in some cases. Furthermore, the ministry continued to experience the challenge of inadequate staffing levels, especially for positions of labour officers, labour inspectors and occupational safety and health inspectors, countrywide. Only fifty-four, out of 116 districts have staff, while sixty-two districts have no staff at all, contrary to the case in other deconcentrated ministries.


Ministerial Budgetary Allocation for 2022


Mr Chairperson, the estimates of expenditure allocated to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security increased to K51,100,549 for the year 2022 from K33,450,981 in 2021, representing 53 per cent increase. The increase is mainly to the placement of some grant-aided institutions under the ministry that include the OSHI and KIZ.


Policy Focus for 2022


Labour and Productivity Activities


Mr Chairperson, the thrust of this programme is to promote decent work for the workers and productivity for the establishments. In this regard, within the context of descent work, the ministry will strength labour inspections in order to enhance compliance to labour laws by both the workers and employers. Hence, labour officers and inspectors will need to be recruited to the sixty-three underserved districts. In addition, the ministry will facilitate effective dialogue between the workers and employers through workers’ and employers’ organisation to promote industrial harmony.


Productivity Promotion


Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue to promote productivity activities in line with the manifesto of the New Dawn Administration to stimulate productivity and competitiveness of industries and other sectors of the economy. This is to complement the Government’s efforts of ensuring that Zambia becomes a more prosperous nation. As the New Dawn Government, we want to heighten activities in the area of productivity as we move into stabilising industrial relations.


Social Security Reforms


Mr Chairperson,  the National Pension Scheme Act will be amended to revise the penalty rate for delayed payment contributions and to provide for an option for workers to claim for part of the age benefits of  their contributions early, as is going in the public debate.


Occupational Safety and Health


Mr Chairperson, inspectorate services will be done through the Occupational Safety Health Service Department while diagnostic and routine medical examinations will be under taken by the OSHI.


Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, a productive and efficient labour market system anchored on principles of equity, social justice and social dialogue is of paramount importance for creating a conducive environment, characterised by industrial harmony, which is necessary for achieving economic transformation and job creation. Therefore, I call upon hon. Members of this House to support the 2022 Budget for my ministry.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Chienge an opportunity to add a voice to this very important Budget on the Floor, especially that it has to do with labour.


Mr Chairperson, I support the Budget. However, I have a big problem with this ministry and I pray that the new hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, being a woman, will turn things around. I say so because our people are suffering and have become slaves in their own motherland, Zambia.


Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about labour inspection and I do appreciate that this is a new Government. During the previous Government, I used to ask how inspectors did their inspection. 


Mr Chairperson, our people who work in the farms that are in the rural areas are ill-treated. Right here in Lusaka, our people who work in the industries owned by certain foreigners are ill-treated. On the Cha Cha Cha Road, there is a place where they manufacture overalls and you will be surprised to see how Zambians who work there are ill-treated. At lunch time, they are locked up but I have not seen any law taking its course against such employers. So, what is the Ministry of Labour and Social Security going to for the Zambians?


Mr Chairperson, I think as Zambians, we have suffered at the hands of the so-called foreign investors. If the hon. Minister brought a Motion so that we amend the laws regarding labour in Zambia, I would be one of those who would support it. I say so because the minimum wage and the rights of workers are not something to talk about, including getting terminal benefits. Why would the pension scheme institution pay retiree money in small amounts as if it is the institution that plans one’s retirement? When people grow old and retire, they know what they are doing. Therefore, this is not helping people at all.


Mr Chairperson, the policies of most of these investors have no regard for our people. They do not plan on behalf of the people in terms of helping them decide on what to do after they retire, resign or when something else happens. The Workers Compensation Fund Control Board needs to be funded in order to help our people. It is failing to function to its full capacity because it is incapacitated. It does not have money to do what it is expected to do, which is to protect the workers. When we talk of workers, people only think of those who are in the corporate world, who can easily be protected by the law. However, the majority of workers are those who get a low income and they need to be protected.


Mr Chairperson, this ministry should allocate more money to the inspectors. I have a feeling that when inspectors go for inspections, maybe, they are greeted in a certain way. I cannot believe that for example, when some inspectors go to a farm somewhere in Mkushi where people are being mistreated, they concluded that those people are just lazy. We should not entertain that. Our people are treated like animals in some companies because of racism. So, I would like to know what the inspectors will be doing and that should not just be on paper. I am sorry, I will not use the word that is normally supposed to be used, but I do not want this to just be on paper. We want real labour inspectors to be on the ground, especially in the manufacturing industry.


Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the unions. Trade unions in Zambia are dead and they have no teeth to bite. We used to have trade unions such as the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU). I do not know if it still exists. We used to have one for the teachers as well. Why would this ministry allow trade unions to look like they exist when they do not? I understand that the Government has its own mandate to fulfill, but trade unions need to be heard. However, most members of the trade unions, especially the ZCTU, are civil servants and they are intimidated. This is not the ZCTU that we used to know under the reign of the late Fredrick Chiluba, may his soul rest in peace. I think the Government can do something about it. No wonder we have not only foreigners but some investors and businessmen who are ill-treating employees because the unions have no teeth to bite.


Mr Chairperson, our people who work at Shoprite and Pick n Pay work for long hours but how much do they get? We should also check on how the young men and women are ill-treated at Filling Stations. If we had true inspectors, all these problems would have been sorted out. However, when one asks the workers if any inspector went there, they would say, “Tina baona che” which means, “We saw them.” They would say, “We saw them but they went to the office and that was it.” We need this ministry not to be just on paper. I believe the hon. Minister will hear the cry of the Zambians. When it comes to terminal benefits and the minimum wage, we can revise that and that is why we are hon. Members of Parliament. With the inflation rate that has increased, why would a person who works in a shop get K450? What is that? So, we need to see to it that our people are protected by this ministry.


Mr Chairperson, I support this Budget, but I beg that this ministry looks into the issue of inspections for it to show its real meaning.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to speak on this subject that is so dear to my heart. When I was first elected in 2011, I was Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security.


Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister was presenting her policy statement, I felt sad. I wondered where the aspect of worker education is because the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is responsible for the supervision of unions in Zambia and one of the clauses in the Trade Unions Act is that part of the funds that workers contribute must be used for worker education but we have not seen anything. What has happened to the unprotected workers? Some of the things that we do today – As the Minister responsible for labour, where is the K1,500 promised to us the civil servants?


Mr Chairperson, I expect the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to stand here and speak for the voiceless labourers who cannot speak for themselves, such as the people of Kabwata who work in saloons, filling stations and media houses. Her office must be able to speak for them.


Mr Chairperson, I remember that in 2011, when the Patriotic Front (PF) was elected into Government, it was the first Government in the history of Zambia to increase the salaries of the workers by more than 200 per cent. I expect the New Deal Government ...


Hon. Government Members: There is no new deal!


Mr Chitotela: ... to look at the interest of the workers who voted for it. What has happened to the civil servants, shopkeepers and the university graduates who are looking for employment, who lined up in the morning to vote for the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government?


Mr Chairperson, I expected the hon. Minister, being a mother, to speak for the marginalised people in society. It was the PF Government that revised the minimum wage for the people who are not protected by collective bargaining. So, I expected the hon. Minister in her policy statement to state that in January, they would review the minimum wage for domestic workers and shopkeepers because they are not protected by the collective agreement.


Mr Chairperson, where are the inspectors? I am looking for an hon. Minister who will go and speak for workers. When they go to these mines, they should speak for the people of Zambia because Zambian workers only have Zambia. They have nowhere else to go and no one will speak for them. The Government has a duty and the responsibility to protect the unprotected and to secure the unsecured. Those who work at filling stations and shops in Kabwata are supposed to be protected by the Government. I expect the hon. Minister responsible for labour –


Hon. Government Members: Why Kabwata?


Mr Chitotela: Even in Pambashe and Choma.


Hon. Member: And Monze!


Mr Chitotela: No, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is my hon. Colleague and I do not want to mention Monze.


Mr Chairperson, people need to be spoken for and protected by the Government. However, when I listened to the policy statement, I said, “Ooh! Cry my beloved country.” What has happened to the workers who stood in queues in the early morning hours of 12th August, 2011, in the hope that they were changing Government by voting for a Government that would protect their interests?


Hon. Government Members: 2011?


Mr Chitotela: In 2021. When the hon. Minister was speaking, I said, “Oh my God!”


Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister needed to appeal to us to impress upon the hon. Minister responsible for the Treasury to increase funding to this ministry so that more Labour Inspectors are employed. That way, workers who are not protected could have something to fall back on. Workers need people who can represent them. They need people who will go and speak for the unprotected labourers. You know, the challenge of – Yes, others will stand and say, “What did you do as the Patriotic Front (PF)?”


Hon. Government Members: Yes!


Mr Chitotela: Maybe we did not do the right thing, and that is why people voted us out.


Hon. Member: Hear, hear!


Mr Chitotela: If the United Party for National Development (UPND) party want to follow our way, I can assure them that if there is one thing that is permanent, it is change. They will also be booted out.



Mr Chitotela: My grandfather once said, “A wise person learns from the mistakes of his friend.” If they want to fall in the some trap – In Bemba we say, “mumbwe aimbile ubuchingo umwine a ponena mo.” This means that a person dug a well, planning that his friend would fall into it, but he ended up falling in that trap himself.


Mr Chairperson, if now, they want to dig a ditch and fall into it themselves, they will see that the people of Zambia will not even give them a chance to explain themselves because Zambians are very intelligent. They will not be speaking.




Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, the living standard of an average Zambian is biting. The cost of living is very high.


Hon. Government Member: Since when?


Mr Chitotela: I expect the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to speak for workers. I expect the hon. Minister to say that in 2021, they shall increase the salaries for all public workers by 50 or 60 per cent –


Hon. Member: 2022!


Mr Chitotela: Yes, 2022. This way, public workers will have that relief and say, “Yes, this is what we voted for.” If the K1,500 is not forthcoming, I expected the hon. Minister to say for domestic workers, security guards and shopkeepers, we shall revise the minimum wage by the end of this year. Come January, this is how much they will be getting. I expected that in the policy statement from the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security because she has a duty to protect the unprotected.


Mr Mwiimbu interjected. 


Mr Chitotela: She has a duty, hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to protect the unprotected. Domestic workers, who have nobody to speak for them rely on the Government.


Mr Chairperson, I will, with difficulty, support this ministry’s Budget, but I cry for the poor Zambian workers out there who have nobody to speak or stand up for them. I want to tell them that one day – I remember the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, standing here where I am standing, saying that one can jump from the frying pan into the fire. I hope the poor Zambian workers, who are not protected, have not jumped from the frying pan into the burning fire.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate Head 44 – Ministry of Labour and Social Security.


Mr Chairperson, I never intended to start my debate in this fashion, but having listened to the former hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security in the defunct Patriotic Front (PF) Government, I think I need to make mention of a few things so that the nation knows the status quo.


Mr Chairperson, it is clear from the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) saga that these men on your left hand side are responsible for it. It is very clear from what is happening in Mufulira and in Kitwe, how people have been thrown out of jobs. The proposed liquidation which was never intended for the KCM and all the illegal issues around it caused people to lose many jobs.


Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Kambita: Today, they must come here to show as if they are saints, speaking on behalf of workers.


Mr Chairperson, let me come back to the real topic. I just want to make mention of that so that I drown all that pretence, even the so-called minimum wage, which was set up by the PF; we know they were good at making pronouncements.


Mr Chairperson, there is a correlation between growing the economy and how people will have money in the pockets. The economy was wrecked to a point where those were just pronouncements. How many people could afford to pay workers at a minimum wage? Those were just political pronouncements. Therefore, we will not rush into making political pronouncements. We will concentrate on building the economy. Once we have built the economy, we can make those pronouncements and have the luxury. There is a correlation into doing that.


Mr Chairperson, back to the topic; we are debating the budget. The mandate that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security has, mainly, is to increase social security coverage and it is clearly stated here. In the informal sector, the ministry wants to increase by 1,500 and in the formal sector, by 40,000 in terms of coverage.


Mr Chairperson, I will debate only two aspects of this Budget; the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and probably other social security issues like the Public Service Pensions Fund (PSPF). In short, the public pension schemes, which exist. I think they are three in total. There is the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF), PSPF and NAPSA.


Mr Chairperson, because of reckless management by the PF Government, NAPSA is the way it is. It became an institution which was highly abused in that a board was, of course, in existence according to the law, but under very serious political influence to a point where it was forced to invest in unprofitable assets. Some of the issues are still outstanding.


Mr Chairperson, we have a situation where, the law which was put in, I think around 2000, the National Pension Scheme Act, sits clearly regarding that institution. However, we need to revisit this Act. I heard, in the hon. Minister’s statement, that we are going to revisit the NAPSA Act. We are on the right course because that institution needs revisiting, definitely. It appears the National Pension Scheme Act seems to be restrictive. That is why, I thought I should also make mention of the PSPF because it seems that Act is silent or seems to suggest that all workers in this country, including Public Service workers, should now be on the NAPSA Pension Scheme.


I feel that is not what it actually says because I can see that the private sector is coming up with other pension schemes. The National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) Pension Scheme is meant to be a baseline or a basic pension scheme, which has a lower and an upper limit. Therefore, it cannot be such a big scheme meant for those who are getting high pay. However, the way the law sits seems to be restrictive and has ended up dwarfing the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF). Therefore, contributions that are coming from councils and the like are now dwindling because all those new employees who are being employed in the councils now have to go on NAPSA because of the way the law is sitting.


Mr Sing’ombe: Are you in the Opposition?


Mr Kambita: I am simply making suggestions.


Mr Chairperson, at the end of it all, I want to sum it up to say that the hon. Minister now has a big responsibility. We need pension reforms. When the President came here, he made mention of that, and I am so glad we have a starting point. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came here and announced that we are going to pay all outstanding public pensioners.


Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!


Mr Kambita: Therefore, we have a good start which we should supplement with good laws. Therefore, let those pieces of legislation come to Parliament so that we relook at the way the law sits. That way, any lacunas or gaps that are in those pieces of legislation will be addressed. This will help us to move and improve the social security for our people in a much organised manner than the way these people (left) did things to a point where they almost sunk those important institutions.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson. 


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I will restrain myself from politicking and go straight to the comments in the ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.


Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has referred to the National Pension Scheme Act, which will be amended. I am certain that this review process should be undertaken in a very consultative manner; a manner that allows for all the stakeholders to provide the right input. I know the Government may have its own thinking, but I think, with time, our hon. Colleagues who are now in the Government will realise that stakeholders are very critical in developing a law which will be accepted by everyone. I am sure the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security who is coming from that industry agrees with me that in this sector, we have the Zambia Federation of Employers (ZFE) and the unions. Their voice, unfortunately, cannot be ignored in ensuring that a law is easily implemented. I look forward to receiving the draft Bill to be presented to this Floor so that we can interrogate the document.


Mr Chairperson, I was hoping that the hon. Minister would provide us with further details on what particular issues require amendment in the National Pension Scheme Act. Let me put on record that it is not everything that is bad that NAPSA did. We are all aware, for instance, that part of road financing was done by NAPSA. We are all aware that some of the wonderful projects that were undertaken, including the works on the corridor from Ndola to Kitwe up to Solwezi, were partly financed by NAPSA. It is important to place these facts on record so that even as we discuss what should happen to the operations of NAPSA, we remember that there are good things that have happened in the past.


Mr Chairperson, on Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) support, I understand that the National Pension Scheme Act is being amended, but I think it will be necessary for the hon. Minister to package solutions for SMES in the National Pension Scheme Act. The hon. Minister is aware that SMEs sometimes fail to comply with certain regulations which require that they submit a list of their workers and include them on the NAPSA programme. The hon. Minister may find that because an SME is struggling to grow, it fails to comply with some of these regulations. I think it is important that the hon. Minister reviews her policies over the next few months and years to come, to try and design solutions for SMEs. There are penalties to be paid, for instance, by big corporate companies for not complying. There fees are payable by corporate companies, but I think for SMEs – and I am sure the hon. Minister in charge of SMEs would want solutions for his sector. It will be necessary that we design solutions together because laws are made here. We should design solutions together that are meant to benefit the growth of SMEs.


Mr Chairperson, let me move on to the programme for interns and apprentices. I do recall that in 2019 or 2020, thereabout, a programme was designed to take into industry interns who could acquire skills over a period of twelve months, and they would be paid by the Government, and eventually, consumed into industry. It will be important that that programme continues. I know for a fact that in my constituency, for instance, we have many young people who were part of that internship programme. That internship programme, I was hoping that beyond the numbers that may be available in the Yellow Book, we could actually support close to a very reasonable number that would have actually allowed for more interns from Ndeke, in my constituency, and those from various constituencies across Zambia, who would want to begin with internship before going into formal employment.


Mr Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister that as she goes back to review our critique of her statement, it is important to factor in as many interns as possible, who can actually go through Government departments before going into formal employment. This is important.


Mr Chairperson, on sector-based minimum wage on page 445, the target by the ministry is to undertake revision of two sector-based minimum wages. I think two is not ambitious enough. My understanding, once again, is that a formula has already been established. Over the last ten years, there has been enough information at the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security on how the hon. Minister can come up with a sector-based minimum wage. What she will basically be doing is take advantage of the information that has already been availed. She may want to refine the formula, but the point remains that much work has been done. Her job now would be basically to add more sectors that do not have minimum wage.


Mr Chairperson, the blame game will never take this country anywhere, especially that from the United National Independence Party (UNIP) to the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) to the Patriotic Front (PF) and now the United Party for National Development (UPND), each Government contributed in ensuring that the decisions of today are based on facts coming from the previous years. So, the hon. Minister has a huge opportunity to add more sectors that require minimum wage. I think from 2011 to where we are today, there is enough research that has been done in terms of how we should come up with minimum wage.


Mr Chairperson, on Head 44, there is a Budget that has been allocated for the KAIZEN Institute of Zambia (KIZ) programme, K3.2 million. There is also a budget for the National Productivity Centre of K1.792 million in the 2022 proposed Budget. It will be important that the activities of the KIZ and the National Productivity Centre (NPC) are made available. These must be the activities which they do. One of the things that I believe was done was to have partners. The KIZ has a partner that was supporting this programme, and I think that is why this year there is a budgetary allocation to this programme. It will be important to analyse whether the K3.2 million will be enough to support the activities of the KIZ, moving forward.


Mr Chairperson, lastly, I understand that the ministry wants to do more inspections. I think it is important to do that. We support the ministry. If there are sixty-two districts that require extra members of staff, we are ready to support the hon. Minister. We are ready to support the request that she is going to make because we want more inspectors to be out there in the field to undertake the right amount of work.


Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


The Second Deputy Chairperson: In the interest of time, I will call two more debaters. The first one will be Mr Mapani.


Mr Mapani was not available.


The second Deputy Chairperson: Mr Mapani is not there. I will call upon Mr Nyambose.


Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to make comments on behalf of the people of Chasefu on this important matter of our Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Head 44.


Mr Chairperson, I support this Budget for the ministry. However, just like other hon. Members, I want to make some comments here and there. I will not take so long. I want comment with the experience from the same industry or coming from the background of a worker and member of the labour movement.


Mr Chairperson, it is quite interesting and encouraging to see our hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security putting emphasis on the recruitment of inspectors. I will start from there. It is quite unfortunate that it has taken us to this point to realise that labour inspection is important in this country. We cannot talk about productivity and job security without emphasising on labour inspection. I inform the hon. Minister and the New Dawn Government that you have my support in this direction of ensuring that the recruitment of labour inspectors is done in this 2022 Budget. This is a welcome move for the people of Chasefu as earlier on, the recruitment of the 30,000 teachers and 11,000 health workers was announced. This will come as motivation because Chasefu will have a labour inspector.


Mr Chairperson, just last week, I was in the Constituency and I got submissions from the people of Chasefu on how some contractors and other employers are failing to pay the vulnerable workers for more than three months. All those submission are coming to the Member of Parliament without a presence of the labour inspector. This is a welcome move which deserves support.


Mr Chairperson, the other point I want to discuss is labour movement itself. How has the labour movement performed in the last two to three years or five years, or maybe I can say in the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) time? There are various challenges I have personally observed. I should mention that when I was in the industry, I think over time, there has been a temptation by the Government to compromise the labour movement. This was seen in the previous regime. You could tell that some unions were not as objective. They were seen to be patronised by political parties. I am very happy that the New Dawn Government and this hon. Minister – I want to encourage the Government to engage objectively, the labour movement.


Mr Chairperson, as Hon. Mweetwa said in the morning, you need a good labour movement for you to be given checks and balance although he referred to a good Opposition, just as it is for the labour movement. If there is a very good, strong and objective labour movement and an environment created by a good Government, we shall see productivity, social security and better conditions for our workers in this country. Consequently, the country will go forward. However, a lot has happened and the environment might have contributed. However, the labour movement is still strong, it is still there ready to engage, but the engagement should be constructive and should be mutually beneficial.


Mr Chairperson, the other issue, which has already been stated by Hon. Kambita and he has spoken well, is the issue of pension houses, reforms in the pension schemes or social security. We need to encourage the hon. Minister that this should be done as quickly as possible. Why do I say so? In February, 2000, a law was passed creating the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA). That law to me, having come from the Local Government, was not fair in the sense that you cannot create a big institution to swallow others which have been in existence. As it was elaborated, from 2000, all workers were mandated to join NAPSA and not other schemes like Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) and others from the Government. That meant that the contributions to LASIF were dwindling while building NAPSA. However, the obligations of LASF on the pensioners who were exiting the scheme still stood and LASF started weakening and now it has reached a level where it needs support. Therefore, I will support the reforms just like other hon. Members so that we can come up with the best for this nation and for our workers who are exiting employment.


Mr Chairperson, it is my prayer that measures to remunerate workers better in this country will be put in place. This is a non political matter. For us to achieve productivity and attain economic independence, economic productivity and enhancement, we need a well remunerated employee. It is not about political pronouncements, but it is an obligation of every employer, the Government inclusive, to look into the matter of employee better remuneration for productivity to thrive, for us to achieve that which we want for our economy. So, it is my expectation that the 2022 Budget should have a component of a worker employment.


Madam, furthermore, salary arrears to public and private workers should be discouraged under this leadership. I thank Hon. Nkombo who said no more arrears to council employees and any other private sector.


I thank you.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


The hon. Member’s time expired.


Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, it is very sad to hear that in this country, fifty-seven years after independence, we have districts without the presence of labour officers. It is very sad. This is the why I wonder, at times, what sort of Government we had before the New Dawn Government came into power. We thank God that the people of Zambia have given us an opportunity to drive the affairs of this nation. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to make sure that all the labour officers in every district are working according to the way they are supposed to be working.


Mr Chairperson, workers in the mining sector, fishing industry, hospitality and other sectors are getting slave wages. Those wages cannot be called salaries. The working conditions of our workers are pathetic. The hon. Minister says the Government has inspectors. I urge him to take keen interest in the reports that inspectors are bringing forth after inspecting different sectors. This is because inspectors visit various places of work but in spite of the inspections, the conditions of our workers never improve. That is a source of concern to us leaders because our workers are calling us day in, day out complaining over the conditions under which they are working.


Mr Chairperson, labour inspectors go in the field and get reports on the need for workers to have protective clothing, better salaries, transport, housing units and other amenities that are required for somebody to do a good job but they just end at that. So, I am urging the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to take keen interest and ensure our workers are protected.


Mr Chairperson, inspectors are supposed to ensure that workers contributions are remitted to the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) on behalf of the workers. My other hon. Colleagues have spoken about social security. We want to see that there is change with this New Dawn Government. We know that yes, amendments are inevitable. They are supposed to come through the labour point of view because our workers are complaining day in and day out. We will not sit back and watch our workers being enslaved in this modern world. We will not sit back and watch our workers complaining everyday about their working conditions.


Mr Chairperson, it is time the Government, especially the New Dawn Government of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, brought in new incentives and fresh air in every aspect of our lives, workers inclusive. That is what we are looking forward to.


Mr Chairperson, like my hon. Colleagues like the hon. Member for Chienge have mentioned, there are many workers in every sector; in the shops or chain stores. Go and inspect to see how these workers are being treated. Go and see how many hours they work. In some cases, we also want to know how the unions are working. Are they protecting the interests of the workers because at times unions do not stand for workers? Instead they are siding with management or investors. This is one thing in which we have to take keen interest as a Ministry of Labour and Social Security.


Mr Chairperson, I want the inspectors to do a thorough and good job. The hon. Minister and his team including directors and everybody must take interest and make sure they read these reports from inspectors and make amends where need be.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Tambatamba: Mr Chairperson, in the first place, I would like to appreciate all the hon. Colleagues who have made contributions and have provided us with the feedback that is of critical importance for us to refine the way forward. We believe that the Floor of this House is, indeed, the epitome of social dialogue, the principle that we engage with our partners out there.


Mr Chairperson, from every hon. Member who has spoken, we have taken a leaf that we will use to refine the processes that we are undertaking. However, you ought to take note of the next few points. The ministry has improved funding towards labour inspections. Many of the comments, as I have listened to them, relate to the labour policy, industrial labour relations, employment policy, social security policy and social safety nets. So, just this milestone of improving funding or financing, which has been very low in the past, during the governance of the past regime, means a lot for us. The fact that we point out the need for more labour inspectors and officers in more than half of our districts is of critical importance as it will improve the quality of service that goes to ensuring that our employees; the workers out there, are protected.


Mr Chairperson, discussions are already under way to revise the minimum wage. Sector based minimum wage will continue to be developed. Some of the sectors that we are focusing on are the mining, media and agriculture.


Mr Chairperson, with regards to the pension reforms, again an issue which has been debated by most of the hon. Members, the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) Act is to be amended to respond to the cries of our people, especially the members who have not yet come of age to retire but want to access their contribution so that they begin to use part of their savings because this is their salary that they are posting to retirement. They want to access it, and so, we are listening. Just a few days ago, we were at a meeting with NAPSA management where we were looking at the initial options that we are putting on the table but also taking note of the fact that these options are just but the beginning of the way forward or roadmap. We will be taking these options to the various stakeholders to even benchmark beyond discussions and dialoguing with stakeholders but also perhaps to benchmark with other jurisdictions where pension funds seem to be doing better at improving the lives of our people.


Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, we are making some good progress.


Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda: Amen!






Ms Tambatamba: I think the day has gone. So, with these few words, Mr Chairperson, I once again, thank all those who have made their contributions to this Vote.


I thank you, Sir.


Vote 44/01 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – K51,100,549).


Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, on page 433, Programme 2139 – Occupational Safety and Health –K8,815,991. This allocation by percentage is 17.3 per cent. On page 434, under the table titled Budget Allocation by Programme and Sub-Programme, it is explained in word and I quote:


“Out of the K51.1 million allocated to the ministry, the Labour and Productivity Services Programme has been apportioned 40.5 per cent (K20.7 million), the Social Security Services Programme has an allocation of 4.0 per cent (K2.3 million), Occupational Safety and Health Services Programme K17.3 million per cent and again they say (8.8 million).”

Mr Chairperson, I need a clarification on this one.


Ms Tambatamba: Mr Chairperson, we are still having a look at the numbers that have been mentioned. I will give feedback very shortly.


Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda: Meaning we cannot approve this allocation now.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


(Debate adjourned)






(Progress reported)






The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.


Question put and agreed to.



The House adjourned at 1912 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 25th November, 2021.