DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 12th December, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

DEATH OF MR ABRAHAM REPANCY MUMBA OF MUTUTUMA VILLAGE IN CHIENGI DISTRICT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mwamba): Mr Speaker, yesterday, 11th December, 2012, the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu raised a point of order which was as follows: 

“Mr Speaker, we were assured on the Floor of this House by His Honour the Vice-President that the people of the Northern and Luapula Provinces are secure from any atrocities that may be perpetrated by the rebels and those who are fighting in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). The assurance was made pursuant to the question that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali, Hon. Vincent Mwale.”

Mr Speaker, in The Post newspaper of 11th December, 2012, on page 1, there was a story pertaining to the killing of a headman in Chiengi District by the Mai Mai Rebels who are fighting in the DRC. The report read:

“DRC Rebels kill Chiengi Headman. 

“A Zambian has been killed by the Mai Mai Rebels of the DRC in Chiengi since fights between that country’s Government and the rebels broke out. Senior Chief Puta of the Bwile People confirmed the incident when the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Nickson Chilangwa paid a courtesy call on him. He said that Headman Tutuma was killed by the Mai Mai Rebels in a fight that has resulted in most Congolese nationals to flee into the Republic of Zambia.” 

Sir, on 22nd November, 2012 at 1930 hours, a report of murder was received at Chiengi Police Station in which Mr Abraham Chalwe of Mututuma Village in Chief Puta’s area of Chiengi District aged 70 years reported that his father, Mr Abraham Repancy Mumba was murdered by an unknown person using an unknown type of firearm. The incident occurred on 22nd of November, 2012 at about 1900 hours at Mututuma Village in Chief Puta’s area of Chiengi District. The police visited the scene of crime and found the deceased with a deep bullet wound on his back through the spine. A thorough search was carried out at the scene, but no empty cartridge was found. A postmortem was conducted on 23rd November, 2012 at St Paul’s Mission Hospital in Nchelenge, where it was revealed that the deceased died of a bullet wound through his chest. 

Sir, facts are that the deceased was a witch doctor whose village is located along the Zambia/Congo common border in Chiengi District and lived alone. The man was also aged 70 years. On the material date, the deceased’s daughter, Bupe Theresa Mumba aged 25, took some food for him around 1900 hours and returned to her house. A few minutes later, she heard a gunshot from the direction of her father’s house and when she rushed there, she found her father lying in a pool of blood with a gunshot wound on his back with no sign of any killer in the vicinity. During the period of 8th to 9th December, 2012, as Minister of Defence, I undertook a fact finding mission to Chiengi District and verified that the place is calm and peaceful and that there was no presence of the Mai Mai militia on Zambian land. I was accompanied by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. 

Mr Speaker, The Post newspaper publication of 11th December, 2012, misplaced the facts as regards to the place of occurrence of the murder, which is Zambia and not the DRC. The circumstances of the death are that the deceased was suspected of practicing witchcraft. I wish to inform the Zambian people that we shall ensure that peace and security is maintained in all our border areas. I further wish to state that this case is under intensive police investigations so that the culprits are brought to book. The results of the investigations will be made known to the Zambian people. Burial of the deceased headman took place on 23rd November, 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement given by the hon. Minister of Defence.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Minister for his very short and concise statement. It is comforting to know that the Mai Mai militia have been ruled out according to his statement. Is there any preliminary report of findings from Chiengi Police that can lead the investigators to catch the culprits who shot this loner witch doctor?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the preliminary finding at hand is that the deceased was a witchdoctor. It has been suspected that probably, those who frequented his place are the ones who might have shot him.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, whenever there is a conflict along the Congo/ Zambia Border, Zambians who live there are causalities. Has the Government deployed troops to secure our borders so that our people are safe?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, as I stated in my statement, I mentioned that I and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs undertook a fact finding mission to Luapula Province. One of the things we wanted to do was to ensure that we had adequate troops along the border. I wish to confirm that we have more than enough troops to actually patrol our borders.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, is an influx of refugees as a result of the fighting and did the chief misleed the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs over this particular death?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, let me confirm that the chief misled the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. I say so is because at the time that we were there, the information we now have was not revealed to us by the chief, but by the security agencies that had accurate information.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, incidents of this nature in my constituency happen almost on a monthly basis, and I have bemoaned the lack of action by our security forces over this matter. It is very clear that this is the work of hired assassins who are popularly known as karavinars. Can the hon. Minister of Defence confirm that this phenomenon of karavinars is now spreading throughout this country and the sooner we do something about it, the better.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, as I earlier stated in my statement I think, the issue of the  karavinars or Mai Mai rebels terrorising our territory is out of question. The headman was actually killed by people who are believed to be Zambians.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, it was recently reported that the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs was chased by Zambian soldiers from a refugee camp. I would like to know the circumstances that led to this.

Hon. PF Member: Question.

Mr Speaker: This is a totally different issue. For avoidance of doubt we are clarifying on the statement issued by the hon. Minister.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the facts from The Post newspaper were distorted. When he visited the place, he was quick to declare the place was claim. I would like to find out from him whether he was told about this incident and if he was, why did he have to wait for a directive to issue a statement in order to inform the nation about the sad situation in that area.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, let me say I did not wait because this was a point of order which was raised by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu yesterday and you directed that I should issue a statement on that matter. That is the reason I issued the statement. However, if I was given enough time, I would have issued the statement at a later stage.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister confirm that the report which The Post newspaper carried was inaccurate.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, as I earlier said in my statement the report which was carried out by The Post newspaper was inaccurate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the findings by the hon. Minister of Defence. In his statement, he indicated that the deceased was a witch doctor and a village headman. He further indicated that the deceased lived by himself. I would like to find out how a village headman can be a witch doctor and can live alone.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: I need further clarification on that matter.

Mr Speaker: I am not to sure whether we are being fair to the hon. Minister of Defence. May be, in an unlikely event, he has those details.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I think that question will be very difficult to answer because I do not know why he was a witch doctor and why he lived by himself at the age of seventy. I also would not know why the village headman lived in a small hut without being closer to the people that he was supposed to be taking care of.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizhya): Mr Speaker, through you, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister as to how often these Mai Mai rebels cross into our country.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, as I earlier stated in my statement the Mai Mai rebels have not been in Zambia at all, so that was just a fabrication by The Post newspaper.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, when the issue of …
 
Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Mtolo: … unsafe borders was brought up, it was actually directed to His Honour the Vice-President. On that particular day, he was asked to clarify whether there were border lines along the two countries and if Zambia was safe. One of the issues raised had to do with the border line in the Eastern Province. Can the hon. Minister of Defence state whether the people who are living along the borders in the Eastern Province are safe. I am short of naming the country where some insurgents are regrouping.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I would like to tell the Zambian people that the Ministry of Defence’s core business is to ensure that the entire country’s security is manned by competent troops. Let me also assure them that even the people of the Eastern Province are very safe. We have troops on the ground. However, I can not disclose exactly where they are and how many they are.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ARREST OF HON. CHUNGU

292. Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    whether the Government was aware that the hon. Member for Lufwanyama Parliamentary Constituency, Ms A. M. Chungu, who was arrested and detained by the police on Monday, 10th December, 2012 whist visiting her constituency was made to share the same cell with men over night;

(b)    whether it is the Government’s policy to arrest hon. Members of Parliament and their political leaders whenever they visit their constituencies; and 

(c)    whether the treatment of Hon. Chungu does not amount to Gender-Based Violence.

   The Deputy Minster of Home Affairs (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, it is not true the Hon. Annie Musha Chungu was detained in the same cell with men over night on Monday, 10th December, 2012 while she was visiting her constituency. Hon. Chungu, Member of Parliament was detained together with another female suspect Ms Edith Mataka Nkoma in a female cell while the males where detained in a male holding cell.

   The Government would like to inform the House that Hon. Chungu was arrested together with MMD President, Reverend Dr Nevers Mumba and five others for the offence of unlawful assembly, between 1400 hours and 1600 hours at Saint Joseph’s Parish Hall in Kalulushi. The accused persons were later detained at Nkana East Police Station, which has better cells than any other police station in Kitwe.

  Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, it is not the Government’s policy to arrest hon. Members of Parliament and their political leaders whenever they visit their constituencies. However, the police have a duty to ensure that law and order prevails at all times in the country. 

Mr Speaker, we are all subject to the law. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Therefore, anyone who breaches the provisions of the Public Order Act will be dealt with in accordance with the law, irrespective of their status or standing in society. Law-makers are advised not to dare the police and expect to get away with lawlessness.  

Interruptions

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, it is not right …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mrs Mwamba: … to insinuate that the arrest and detention of Hon. Chungu, MP, or, indeed, any other female suspect amounts to gender-based violence. The hon. Member of Parliament was arrested, detained and subsequently taken to court together with other suspects within the stipulated timeframe. Therefore, claims that the treatment she underwent amounts to gender-based violence are not only false but baseless. For every individual who breaks the law, whether male or female, the law prescribes the same punishment, except for the juveniles.  

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Mulusa: Did you …

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a serious point of order on the Floor of this House. 

Is the hon. Member for Solwezi in order to allege that Hon. Chungu’s rights were violated when I was arrested and detained, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Ms Kapata: … together with Hon. Mumbi, for a week in 2010 to the extent where I was admitted with high blood pressure. Worse still, the officer who took me to hospital was fired from the police service. Is he in order to cry foul when people are just arrested for an hour? 

I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Solwezi Central is in order. Not only is he in order, but this question comes about as a result of my direction. Therefore, the hon. Member is perfectly in order because we want to hear the other side of the story. We have been given the other side by the Executive. So, the opportunity we have, now, is to simply seek and obtain clarifications. The business is, therefore, being transacted in accordance with the laws of the House. 

The hon. Member for Solwezi Central may proceed with the point of clarification. 

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I must state that I sympathise with my sister for whatever she went through. 

Interruptions 

Mr Mulusa: Sir, I am reliably informed that, before an hon. Member of Parliament is arrested, the Hon. Mr Speaker is supposed to be informed. Did the hon. Minister notify the Hon. Mr Speaker that he would arrest four hon. Members of Parliament? If so, what did Mr Speaker say? 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, there is no legal requirement for the Hon. Mr Speaker to be informed before the arrest of an hon. Member of Parliament. However, as a matter of courtesy, the police does inform the Hon. Mr Speaker every time an hon. Member of Parliament is in trouble. I must assure this House that I have done what is expected of me by confirming whether the Inspector-General of Police has informed Mr Speaker and she assured me that a letter was written this morning to inform the Hon. Mr Speaker …

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: This morning?

Mr E. C. Lungu: …of the circumstances that led to the arrest of the hon. Members of Parliament. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the conduct of the PF Government has now become …

Mr Hamudulu: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, I would like to apologise to my whip for disturbing his line of thought. 

Hon. Government Members: Which whip?

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. 

Sir, a few minutes ago, the hon. Minister of Defence confirmed that The Post Newspaper published false and alarming information to this nation. Is this Government in order not to cite the newspaper for publication of false and alarming information to this nation. 

Mr Speaker, I seek your very serious ruling on this matter. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

My short ruling is that, since the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is responding to various issues, he will attend to that question as well. 
The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central may proceed. 

Mr Nkombo: Good. 

Mr Speaker, I was saying that the conduct of the PF Government, particularly the Ministry of Home Affairs, is preponderant of a Government that wants to promote anarchy by denying people the right to assemble. Can the hon. Minister confirm that his behaviour, by stopping people from assembling, as the case was in Kanyama and Chawama for the UPND and on the Copperbelt for Dr Nevers Mumba, who notified the police in good time, but his request was rejected, is actually promoting anarchy, and that, one day, the people of Zambia will start assembling anyhow in order to dare his authority.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am mindful of the fact that the Public Order Act has been the subject of a petition which is currently pending in the High Court of Zambia at Lusaka. In answering the question, I am further mindful of the need not to stray into prejudicing the proceedings. For this reason, I will not respond to what happened in Chawama or Kanyama, but restrict myself to the facts which have given rise to this question, even though this matter is also subjudice as it is before the courts in Kitwe. Therefore, if there is any evidence that, indeed, the police was notified, but rejected the notification, I am sure that it will come out in the court proceedings. However, personally, I depend on the police’s judgement of the facts on the ground as they obtain. If the police find that the law was not complied with, they are free to take measures they deem fit. If I interfered because of fear of being faced with questions on the Floor of this House, I would be hindering their work. Suffice it to say that, every time there is such a development, I take a keen interest in knowing whether the police are complying with the law or not. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, as for the other question of fabrications by The Post Newspaper, I believe that the hon. Minister of Defence ably answered it by saying that this event occurred three weeks ago, in November. He also mentioned that there was a bit of distortion of the facts that obtained on the ground, but that cannot amount to alarming the nation because there was a death which was caused by a shooting, although the facts were not accurately portrayed. Therefore, as a person who is privy to the facts given to the House by the hon. Minister of Defence, I do not think that I would want to take The Post on for a fabrication. It is not so much of a fabrication, but a distortion, which could have been inadvertently made.

I thank, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Speaker, as a rider to Hon. Nkombo’s question, are the events of the past two days not a clear indication of the failure …

Mr L. Zimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: It appears every intervention is paired with a point of order.

Let the hon. Member continue first.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Sir, are the events of the past two days not a clear indication of the failure by those reposed with authority to act judiciously in discharging their responsibilities by using the Public Order Act?

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Could the hon. Member for Kapiri-Mposhi follow that up with a question, if he can, unless, the hon. Member of Parliament for Malambo is out of order.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Member of Parliament for Malambo continue. 

Interruptions

Let him finish.

Mr M. B. Mwale repeated the question.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I hope that the events of the past two days are restricted to the matter at hand, which is the arrest of Dr. Nevers Mumba and his colleagues. I do not think that the arrest of an individual with a group of his colleagues, who are perceived by police, acting in the cause of their duty, and being convinced, that they had done wrong, can be said to be a complete breakdown of law and order as the hon. Member is saying. In fact, they maintained order by arresting that gentleman and his colleagues. Therefore, I have no reason to begin subscribing to the fallacious belief that there is a breakdown of law and order. It is the other way round. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. Zimba (Kapiri-Mposhi): Mr Speaker, I rarely stand on points of order.

Interruption

Mr Speaker: Order! 

It cannot be a point of order now. Ask a question.

Mr L. Zimba: Alright, Sir.

Sir, I want to ask about what has happened in this country. There are ‘arm’ worms …

Interruptions

Hon. Members: Army worms!

Mr L. Zimba: Sir, there are army worms in this country, which are eating crops in the fields. To this effect, the farmers are very worried about the crops that they have lost in their fields.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Speaker, my question is: Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock putting up good measures to purchase pesticides so that these army worms can be killed or controlled?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

If the House was not rising, today, I would have asked the hon. Member on the Floor to file a question but, unfortunately, in the nature of things, it will be totally ineffectual, and I regret this, but we have, more or less, come to the end of this particular sitting. Therefore, I do not think that it is fatal because the hon. Minister of Agriculture is available. As we have always said, hon. Members in the Opposition should constantly engage your colleagues in the Executive. I wish I could resolve it in the context of the House but, given the timing, I am afraid, even if it were a point of order, which you attempted to make it earlier, we would still come back to the same issue. The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock would need time before responding.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask this question, especially, on my name sake. Not too long ago, we saw Hon. Jean Kapata, the former hon. Member of Parliament, Mumbi Phiri, and Hon. Chishimba Kambwili get arrested. To help the people of Lupososhi understand, I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether it is not the same law that he is using today that was used when the three hon. Members were arrested.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member forgot to include Hon. Mwenya Musenge, who was also arrested.

Sir, it is the same law that we are using, only that we are using it more judiciously than our colleagues.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, when Hon. Jean Kapata and Hon. Mumbi Phiri were arrested in 2010, I stood in solidarity with them and said denounced the abuse of the Public Order Act. Even now, I still say, ‘No’ to that. I said it then, and I am saying it again.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mucheleka: The question is: Is the hon. Minister aware that, at the rate that he and his colleagues are blatantly abusing the Public Order Act, they may end up forcing the Zambian people to resort to civil disobedience? Can I get a response?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, hon. Members will recall that, on 26th October, 2012, I gave a policy statement in which I highlighted, in great detail, how the Public Order Act functions. I also threw a challenge …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us get the response from the hon. Minister.

Mr E. C. Lungu: ... to hon. Members of this House, both on right and left, that, if they found it wanting in any respect, they were free to engage me so that we could amend it. This challenge was not only restricted to the House, but went beyond its boundaries to the nation at large.

Sir, I am sorry to say that, to date, I have not received any contribution or submission indicating the areas in which the law is flawed. To that effect, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) has taken upon itself to take the matter to court to challenge Section IV and V so that the law is perfected or improved upon. Therefore, those of you who think that the Judiciary will help us in this respect should, please, submit your views to LAZ so that they are included in the petition to the High Court. I am not saying that this law is set in stone, but challenging you, hon. Members, to come out in the open and tell me where the law is being abused so that we can improve upon it.

Mr Speaker, if there is any abuse of the law…

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Do not engage him whilst you are seated. Just rise and I will give you the opportunity to engage him.

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, If there is any abuse of the law, and you do not want to use the power of legislation that you have in the House to engage me to amend the law, submit to LAZ, which has taken the matter to court, so that we learn from the court and see how we can improve this law.

Sir, the history of the Public Order Act in Zambia is well-known. All the amendments which have come on the Floor of this House were moved by the court when Christine Mulundika and Residents Doctors Association of Zambia petitioned. Therefore, if you are too lazy or too idle to engage me, what can I do?

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, could the Learned hon. Minister confirm that, since we are rising and going to our constituencies, we are all…

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to refer to this Honourable House as lazy or idle. Is he in order to use such terminologies on hon. Members of this distinguished House? Is he in order?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I think the hon. Minister is out of order because there is really no proof, so far, that there is inaction. Therefore, to conclusively say that this an act of indolence, would be most unfair.

You may continue, please.

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that since most of us are going back to our constituencies, can the hon. Minister confirm that we are all potential prisoners or detainees because we have to meet our chiefs, village headmen and so on and so forth. How many permits am I going to get? How many permits do I need because I have several chiefs in my constituency?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, in the Public Order Act relates to specific events such as processes, public meetings and so on and so forth. I believe hon. Members know very well what is provided in there. It is up to them really to ensure that they comply with that law because ignorance of that law cannot be said to be a defence.

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, I know that some people try to dare the police. That is why my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister, found it fit to advise the hon. Members not to do things with impunity when they know that those things that they are doing are against the law. So, hon. Member be rest assured that you will not be arrested as long as you comply with the law. If you do not know the law, meet me outside and I will show you what the Public Order Act states. I have already stated, on the Floor of the House, that it is very simple.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, of late, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, in the administration of the Public Order Act, have been refusing or, indeed, arresting people who are even holding indoor meetings. May I find out whether we need the police to give us permits to hold indoor meetings, including holding meetings with farmers who are affected by army worms, we need police permits to go and mobilise farmers to plant this season or we need permits for meetings for all those CDF projects that we are administering as the case is with Hon. Chungu who was going to her constituency to carry out her representative role …

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Kakoma: … to inspect projects and she has been arrested for unlawful assembly. Do we need permits to hold indoor meetings and all those things that hon. Members of Parliament carry out as part of their duties?

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, we do not need permits in Zambia to hold public meetings or processions. All we need to do is to notify the police of our intention to gather at a place or to have a procession.

Hon. Government Member: Yes!

Mr E. C. Lungu: As hon. Members of Parliament, you are custodians of the law. Hence you need to know, sometimes, just out of good conduct, that the meeting that you are going to hold will probably attract a lot of people, some of whom may not even be your supporters who will not agree with your views and may not cause trouble for you. It is for this reason that we ask you to let the police know and they will come and provide you with protection. 

For example, if Mr Kachingwe informed the police, that unfortunate event would not have happened.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr E. C. Lungu: He was going to be protected. However, since he did not report, the hooligans took advantage of that. So, we are saying that, please, let us know when you are holding these meetings so that we cover you. It is for your own good.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, by our nature, politicians’ work is to talk. In view of what the hon. Minister has said about hon. Members of Parliament or political parties not really needing a permit, but just to provide notice to the police so that they are protected, what are you going to do, hon. Minister, to provide leadership and ensure that the perception that the police come there as enemies of the Opposition and not to protect them is cleared? What are you going to do to take away this perception so that when we apply  for permits, the police should not use that and any other excuse to stop the meeting, but actually work with opposition parties to facilitate the meetings?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I wish to take advantage of the question and probably commend the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central whom I have had the chance to talk to about policing in Petauke. For example, the police in Petauke have been very professional in the way they have handled public meetings organised by both the Opposition and Ruling Party. It is because the police officers there know what their role is.

However, I must admit that elsewhere some, police officers think that they are just supposed to protect the Patriotic Front (PF), and yet they are supposed to protect the citizens of the Republic of Zambia. That is why we have told this House that we are embarking on an in-service programme of training police officers. We are setting up a base in Luanshya where some of our police officers will be going from time to time to learn the modern trends of democracy. However, it is really up to you, colleagues, when you are in your constituencies and you face challenges with the police, to let us know so that we provide policy direction. I cannot say every police officer is up to the mark.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who is my learned colleague, to tell me and the House the section that provides that when you have a private meeting in a home or in an office, you need to have a police permit or you have to notify the police. Can he, please, tell me that you need to notify the police when it is a public meeting and it is not public procession? Can he tell the nation?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Just a matter of comment, there is no requirement for a permit under the law.

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I know that probably Hon. Jack Mwiimbu is talking about a gathering of ten people to discuss how they are going to have the matebeto over the weekend or some other things, but where you find a large group of people whether …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, can you translate that word?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Oh, the matebeto, Mr Speaker, means preparing for a wedding or something on those lines as a family gathering. Matebeto is a party where the groom receives food prepared by the bride’s family.

Sir, I am trying to point out that a gathering which will attract public attention, whether it is going to be held in a private home or not, will require police knowledge. Notification is good for that gathering. That is why I was emphasising and belabouring the point that if you are going to put yourself at risk, do not blame the police for not coming to your rescue. If fifty of you are going to come to my home and people begin wondering what is happening at Mr Lungu’s home, there is a danger that as you get out of that place, you may be waylaid and beaten. So, what I am saying is that there is no requirement …

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: Which section of the law?

Mr Speaker: Order!

He is on the Floor!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Sir, a public procession can be held in a private place depending on whether members of the public will be allowed or not. It is up to ingenuity to decide whether it is good or not or you want to let the police know. However, if it is a place where you invite your cousin and brother to come and discuss family matters, that is something else. So, really, let us not try and take the existence of this law lightly. This is because there is no need for you to go to the police and tell them that you will be meeting your folks at home. Unless you think that it will do you good to let the police know, then you can do so. However, I have not said that in the Public Order Act, there is a section which requires that for you to hold a meeting at home with relatives, you need to inform the police about it. It is up to you if you want to meet at your home with your relatives without notifying the police but be mindful of the consequences.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whose statement I did not get clearly, where these suspects were apprehended because we do not know exactly the place where they were apprehended from. May the hon. Minister inform this House and the nation at large where these people were arrested from?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not want to begin testifying before this House, as this matter is before the court in Kitwe. Suffice to say that these people were caught in the jurisdiction of Kitwe when they were travelling from Kalulushi to Kitwe. I do not have the facts for me to testify before this tribunal. All I know is that they were arrested in Kitwe and the matter is before a competent court of jurisdiction there. As to the exact spot they were arrested from, I cannot say since I was not there but, if it was included in the question, I would have belaboured to find out. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to further educate me on when a gathering is illegal and attracts police arrest. I have in mind the recent incidents involving Dr Nevers Mumba and the four parliamentarians and when the hon. Minister of Justice went to the Anti Corruption Commission (ACC) with some cadres.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I wish to start with the last part of the question. As minister responsible for law and order, I did write to the Director-General of the ACC to give me a report on what happened when the Secretary-General of the PF and Minister of Justice was called to appear before the ACC. I am still awaiting that report. Once I get it, I will be able to know exactly what happened.

Secondly, on the Public Order Act, which my sister Hon. Lubezhi wants me to educate her on, I already delivered a ministerial statement, here, on 26th October, 2012 but, if what I said fell on deaf ears – oh! sorry Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw that phrase.

Mr Speaker: That was very timely.

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, if my ministerial statement was not adequate, I would answer a specific question when it is put to me in written form because I thought that we did, in fact, belabour the contents of the Public Order Act. Even today, we are still straying back to the same subject. So, I would ask the hon. Member to put the question in writing, which I will answer at an appropriate time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the subject at hand is arising from your directive to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to give this House a comprehensive statement on the circumstances that surround the detention of four hon. Members of Parliament and a president of a political party and their associates.

Sir, is the hon. Minister in order to respond that he does not have details of exactly where these suspects were arrested from against your own directive to him? Is he in order to continue responding like this?

Mr Speaker: Firstly, and I am sure the verbatim record will show that, if we resort to it, he did give some detail and, if my memory and ear serve me right, he mentioned it, at a parish hall of some sort. However, what he is constraining himself from doing is giving a detailed evidential account. I know this subject is very topical, emotive and has various facets. I understand his response to mean simply that, if there is further need for more engagement, he is still at liberty to respond to many other questions but, if you go back to the statement, I think, in my opinion, it was sufficiently specific, granted that the matter is subjudice.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, when order is severely applied, it becomes oppressive. Some of your hon. Members of Parliament reside literally in villages or rural areas where the police is very far. I would like to state that I am now in fear, and see myself as a potential prisoner. How possible is it that when an hon. Member of Parliament like myself is invited by a village headman to attend to a situation in that particular village, the hon. Member of Parliament has to go to the police. How possible is it that hon. Members of Parliament, especially those of us who live in the rural areas, are going to perform as expected by the electorate with this abusive and oppressive law?

Mr Speaker: Before the hon. Minister responds, let me just give some counsel. I note that we are slowly repeating the same questions and answers and working against the economy of our business in the House, considering that there are several other items to be disposed of.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the only thing I can do now is to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that the police are there to help maintain law and order. When the hon. Member of Parliament is visiting his chiefs or headmen, it would not be harmful to let the nearby police know that you will be visiting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr E. C. Lungu: This is the reality of our time but, if it is not practical, obviously, the hon. Member of Parliament will go to his constituency and meet the people. However, where it is practical, it is important that the police are made aware because tomorrow you will be saying that the police have neglected their duty of policing. This law is a double-edged sword which cuts both ways. Whereas you can go and hold a meeting with the chiefs and enjoy the liberty, if things go wrong, you will require the presence of the police to defend you from the same headmen.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

ZAMBEZI SAW MILLS LIMITED

293. Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Finance:

(a)    why the Zambezi Saw Mills Limited was privatised by the Government;

(b)    how much money was raised from the privatisation of the company;

(c)    whether the Government was aware that the liquidator collected money from occupants of the company houses as deposits for purchasing the houses without issuing official receipts;

(d)    when offer letters to purchase the houses would be given to the people who paid deposits; and

(e)    what the future of the company was.

The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Zambezi Saw Mills was not privatised by the Government but, instead, it was placed under receivership in 1998 by the Development Bank of Zambia. It was later placed under liquidation by the Zambezi Saw Mills Limited Creditors in 2001. Its current status is still in liquidation and not privatised.

Sir, the money raised from the sale contract executive between the Development Bank of Zambia and Jet Cheer Development Company Limited amounted to K2,727,500,000.

Zambezi Sawmills had a housing stock of 375 houses comprising eighty-four in Livingstone, 149 in Mulobezi and 142 units in Sesheke. The eighty-four houses in Livingstone were offered to ex-employees who were sitting tenants and the purchase price was deducted from their terminal benefits. The liquidator has indicated that no receipts were issued for these payments. Ex-employees are advised to contact the liquidator for issuance of receipts. 

The ministry has also been informed that the 142 housing units in Sesheke were offered for free to ex-employees as the houses were wooden structures in a dilapidated state. Meanwhile, the 149 units in Mulobezi were never sold to ex-employees and there are no records of money having been paid to Zambezi Sawmills by any ex-employee.

There are no outstanding offer letters to the people that benefited from the Livingstone and Sesheke housing stock. If any documents in respect to Livingstone and Sesheke housing stocks have been misplaced, beneficiaries are free to approach the liquidator for fresh documents after verification of their entitlement. The Mulobezi site is operational whilst the buyer plans for the Livingstone office block have stalled. The Sesheke site remains available, though with little economic value.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, the Zambezi Sawmills infrastructure in Livingstone is one of the best structures we have. What are the Government’s intentions as regards the economic value of the same investment?

Mr Sampa: Sir, I said the issue is in the hands of the liquidator, who is Mr G. Kaulung’ombe and Company.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Sir …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to raise this point of order and I apologise to the hon. Member who was on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, if my memory serves me right, some time early this year a point of order was raised by our colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF) on the legality of Mr Rupiah Banda continuing to enjoy benefits of a former President and a ruling which was delivered by yourself, Mr Speaker, stated that the man quickly stepped down from active politics.

Mr Speaker is the PF Government in order to confer benefits to individuals which are not provided for in the Benefits of Former Presidents Act? I have three examples or points of question in particular. First of all, under the Vote for the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, the PF Government brought to this House an activity, which has since been past, for the construction of an office block for the second Republican President. It is public knowledge that the second Republican President has since passed on. Our understanding is that such a benefit is personal to the former President and not the family of the deceased President. 

Mr Speaker, further, under the same Vote, our colleagues have provided for the construction of an office block, mini-library and archive for the first Republican President. All the three items are not provided for in this Act. If I may quote, in addition to a house, the Act states that a former President is entitled to the following:

“OTHER BENEFITS

1.an office (not an office block);
2.one personal secretary;
3.three security persons;
4.one Administrative Assistant, who shall be at the level of Deputy Permanent Secretary; 
5.three house employees, which number may be increased by Cabinet;
6.a diplomatic passport for the former President and his spouse;
7.medical insurance for the former President and his spouse; 
8.in each year, one return air ticket for the former President and one for his spouse; and
9.funeral expenses on his death.”

Mr Speaker, from what I have read, there is no provision for an office block, mini-library and archive for a former President.

Mr Speaker, lastly are our colleagues on your right in order to provide an allocation for a sitting President when Section 3 of this Act states as follows:

“3.    This Act applies to all former Presidents, including those that ceased to hold office before the commencement of this Act.”

Mr Speaker, the current President is not yet a former President. I need a serious ruling on this very important matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My short ruling is this. All these matters that you are referring to, of course you have rightly referenced them, were scheduled and subject to debate yesterday. That was the appropriate juncture to raise all these very searching questions. However, in the nature of things the Vote was passed and business was concluded. If there are further reservations, which you are entitled to maintain anyway, they could be pursued appropriately and since I am speaking to counsel, I need not say any more.

The hon. Member for Gwembe may continue.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, at the time of liquidation of Zambezi Sawmills, what was the shareholding of the Government and that of the liquidator, if there was any …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Another point of order is raised.

It looks like I have to clear a lot of points of order in the pipeline before the House arises.

Laughter 

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I had earlier asked a question on the issue I want to talk about but I feel it is very necessary that I raise this point of order. I had an opportunity to engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock yesterday in the presence of another hon. Member, as we have been encouraged to interact with hon. Ministers. I think we discussed a bit at length. 

Mr Speaker, the issue of army worms, which are now being called ‘don’t kubeba army worms’, was also raised by Hon. Zimba through a point of order and you made a ruling on this. 

Laughter

Ms Kalima: This is a serious issue which does not require this House to compel the hon. Minister, through a point of order, for him to make a statement. Coupled with that, the distribution of Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) packs, which are not even enough to cater for all our poor farmers, has been delayed. 

Mr Speaker, what is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock doing to at least find a solution to this great problem of army worms in this country? The hon. Minister does not require to make a statement in this House to inform the nation because he can do it on television. Our farmers are really desperate and rushing to agro-shops to buy chemicals but some do not even have the money to do so. What is the Government doing to help the rural farmers in Kasenengwa, who do not have the money, address this problem? Should the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock wait to be compelled by this House to give a statement over such a serious don’t kubeba army worm attack? 

Mr Speaker: My short ruling is that from the narration, it appears this outbreak did not take place today. If it was prevalent even yesterday, I would have obviously processed an urgent question and I do not think we should blame the hon. Minister for our own inaction. I think this is inaction on the part of the hon. Member of Parliament. If he had come twenty-four hours ago, we would have processed this question. I do not think it is fair to allege inactivity when you have actually sat on your rights.

The hon. Member for Gwembe continue.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that – the hon. Minister is reading a letter.

Mr Speaker: So, that impedes your question!

You can continue.

Mr Ntundu: Sir, at the time of liquidation of the Zambezi Saw Mills Limited, what was the shareholding for Government since the hon. Minister has informed the House that the company was not privatised?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, this company was actually a parastatal. As the House may be aware, parastatal companies were owned by the Government. In this case, the Government had 100 per cent shares. Now, the company owed the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) who called in liquidators. So, the players in this company are DBZ, Government and the Office of the Administrator-General. If there is still a role to be played by the Government, it will be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the houses in Mulobezi Site were not paid for. The liquidator collected K22 million from the sitting tenants. Each tenant paid K2 million without receipts being issued and nothing is being about Mr Kaulung’ombe. What is the way forward now?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, if there is evidence at the Office of the Administrator-General, then Government will move in and help those sitting tenants who paid and given receipts.

I thank you, Sir.

NATIONAL STADIA

294. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport:

(a)how much money the Government spent on the construction of the new stadium near the Independence Stadium in Lusaka as of June, 2012;

(b)what the time frame for completion of the project was;

(c)what the estimated cost for the rehabilitation of the Independence Stadium in Lusaka was; and

(d)whether the Government has any plans to expand the car park at the Levy Mwanawasa Stadium in Ndola.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Mubukwanu): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the august House that the Government of the Republic of Zambia signed a concessional loan amounting to K470 billion equivalent to US$94 million with the People’s Republic of China in July, 2010 for the purposes of constructing and rehabilitating the grand stand at the Old Independence Stadium. Further, Government is supposed to meet other obligations which were at the month end of June, 2012, K143 million spent on processing of work permits, clearing of land, connecting electricity to the site and sinking of boreholes. However, the complete draw down of the expenditure can only be availed upon completion of the stadium.

For part (b) of the question, the construction of the Lusaka Stadium and rehabilitation of the Independence Stadium will be completed by January, 2014. The construction of works began on 6th July, 2011 and will take thirty months. However, it is anticipated that works will be completed towards the end of next year.

On (c), Mr Speaker, the cost of rehabilitating the Independence Stadium is estimated at K20 billion. 

Finally, on (d), there is a budgetary allocation in the 2013 Budget of K1.5 billion for the purposes of expanding the car park at the Levy Mwanawasa Stadium.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala:  Mr Speaker, how much money does the Zambian Government owe the contractor?

Mr Mubukwanu: Mr Speaker, as the House is aware, the project is not yet completed. The Government does not owe the contractor any money. We still have resources available for the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I want a bonus answer. When is the construction of a stadium in Western Province going to start?

Mr Speaker: Any way, you suggested a culvert to your question and I will place that culvert. It is not a supplementary question.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: We go to the next item on the Order Paper.

________________

MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 20, 21(1) AND 101

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20 and 21(1), if necessary, and Standing Order 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.

Mr Speaker, the current meeting of the House commenced on Friday, 21st September, 2012. That is almost three months ago (coughing). By the end of today, Wednesday, 12th December, 2012, the House would have been sitting for a total of forty-six working days (coughing). This meeting was primarily dedicated to considering and passing the 2013 National Budget. However, the House also debated the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address to the House (coughing). In addition, hon. Members asked a total of 309 Questions for Oral and Written Answers to Ministers (coughing). 

Interjections

The Vice-President: The Questions were (coughing) …

Hon. Member: Bamulowa.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

I will give the Vice-President a few minutes just to reorganise.

You can continue.

The Vice-President: The questions were ... 

The Vice-President coughed.

Mr Speaker: I will give His Honour the Vice-President a few minutes to re-organise.

The Vice-President: ... very probing and kept the hon. Ministers on their feet. The responses to these questions revealed important details on various aspects of Government operations for the information of the House and the general public.

Sir, the House also debated one Private Member’s Motion and two Motions to adopt Parliamentary Select Committees’ reports; fifteen ministerial statements were presented to the House to explain the Government’s position on various matters of national interest; and ten annual reports from Government and quasi-Government institutions were laid on the Table of the House.

Sir, the House further considered and passed nine Government Bills and Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2012. Two new hon. Members of Parliament were welcomed to the House following a by-election in Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency and the nomination of the learned hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Speaker, this has so far been the longest meeting in our Parliamentary calendar, and I am glad to note that all the tasks that were set before the House, from 21st September, 2012, to date, have been successfully accomplished. 

Sir, there were a number of occasions when hon. Members expressed different opinions on different subject matters. It is, however, gratifying to note that, despite those differences, the House, when some hon. Members did not walk out, nearly always found common ground and moved on to the next business. This is as it should be in a democracy, and I assure the House that the Executive will not shy away from taking on board any progressive ideas from the Opposition that will benefit the good governance of our nation. 

Sir, in recognising the great amount of business transacted by the House, allow me to express my profound gratitude to all hon. Members for their cooperation, dedication to duty and constructive and invaluable contributions during the First Meeting of the Second Session of the Eleventh National Assembly. Having worked so hard, it is important that the House now takes a break to enable hon. Members to attend to pressing matters in their respective constituencies. 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that the 2012/2013 planting season has began. Therefore, it is important that hon. Members use the recess to supplement or complement Government and private-sector efforts in the distribution of farming inputs to the intended beneficiaries in their constituencies.  

At this point, Sir, I would simply like to add a few sentences on the subject of the army worms, which was the subject of a long meeting this morning between the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock and the United Nations structures, including the World Food Programme (WFP). 

Sir, the situation regarding the army worms is worse than I have ever seen. It is extremely widespread; has, so far, been detected in five provinces out of the ten; and may well crop up in more areas. Yesterday, I was told that it had not reached further than Mazabuka in the southerly direction. Today, there is a report that it has reached the outskirts of Choma. So, one expects this thing to cover an area about the size of the United Kingdom (UK) or larger. 

Sir, a vigil inspection was carried out, yesterday, by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock and the hon. Member for Chongwe, who is also the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art. Their findings were that the problem is very widespread, with very heavy infestation. So, I just outline for hon. Members what we are doing about it.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Can we have some silence, please.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, much of the maize seed has not yet been planted because of poor weather and planting conditions. Parts of Mazabuka District, for example, have not had even 25mm of rain, so far, this season. So, fortuitously, that seed has been preserved and can go into the ground in the next few days, hopefully, with this weather. Hopefully, we will get heavier rain because heavy rain is what kills off the army worms. Light rain, interspersed with sunshine, boosts the infestation. I must say that I have never seen it explode like this before, and I have seen it several years.

Ms Kalima: It is a curse.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the farmers are, as the hon. Member for Kasenengwa pointed out in her lengthy point of order, by and large, moving around trying to get chemicals. Almost any chemical will kill army worms. It is very easy to kill, but you need to find it and spray it in the right place. You can protect fields with chemical barriers of chemical of all sorts. However, we are ensuring, as a joint effort between the DMMU and the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, that fresh maize seed of short maturing varieties and chemicals suitable for buffering or killing army worms are available in every district and given on concessionary terms to people who are identified as vulnerable under the DMMU’s normal classification system.

Sir, this problem was identified late by the people on the ground and, therefore, likely to last about ten days or so before the heavy rain removes the infestations as it has already done in Muchinga Province. However, I advise hon. Members where villagers and small farmers are asking for help to make sure they are directed to the DMMU or local agricultural camps, if these are properly manned, for directions to where the chemicals and seed are. Please, the emphasis should be on short maturing varieties so that we get a reasonable crop even if the rain does not go on for very long.

Sir, this problem is a lesson in the value of diversification. Not even maize, subsidised with inputs and prices, is safe under those circumstances. You need a variety of crops and, if possible, some livestock to run a successful farm in Zambia, year in and year out. I think that there are some areas which are virtually 100 per cent maize and have been very heavily hit by this infestation, such as Chongwe. This needs to change over the long term. 

In addition, Sir, I wish to encourage hon. members to get involved in the supervision of the various developmental projects going on in their constituencies.

As the year 2012 comes to an end, I wish to pay a glowing tribute to the Zambia National Football Team for bringing honour and glory to the nation after being crowned African Champions, and for winning the Mandela Challenge Cup …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … as an extra feather in their collective crown. 

Further, I wish to congratulate the Ministry of Youth and Sport for successfully hosting the Supreme Council of Sports in Africa (SCSA) Zone Six games, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … which have brought together young men and women from twelve countries in the Southern African region. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It was a tight schedule to finish the works and take the contractors off the site before the players arrived. Luckily, the contractors left the site a few minutes before the contestants started arriving. This is the first time that Zambia has hosted games of this magnitude, and I hope that we shall, in future, build on this experience to host even bigger events. 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, let me commend you, the hon. Deputy Speaker and the hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House most sincerely for the efficient and impartial manner in which you presided over the Business of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, let me also thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the excellent services they continue to render to this House. May I also take this opportunity to express my gratitude to hon. Members, hon. Ministers, hon. deputy Ministers and staff from the Office of the Vice-President and other Government ministries for the support and assistance they provided throughout the meeting. 

Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to wish all hon. Members and the entire nation a happy festive season and a prosperous new year, whether the worms are Kubeba worms or Don’t Kubeba ones, may we win the fight against them. 

May God continue to bless Zambia.

Sir, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I want to pay tribute to His Honour the Vice-President for moving this non-controversial Motion. This is commendable.

Mr Speaker, I also want to pay tribute to you and your lieutenants ...

Interruptions

Mr Chisala … for conducting the business of this House in a very concise manner. That is great. My debate, this afternoon, is focussed on two issues, that is, agriculture and education.

Mr Speaker, we all know that the fish ban …

Laughter 

Mr Chisala: … was effected on 1st December, 2012.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, we all know that fish stocks have greatly been depleted in most water bodies of this country. Arising from this, as we go on recess, it would be prudent for the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock to go to the countryside and areas where we have water bodies and assist in monitoring the enforcement of the ban.

Mr Speaker, in the event that …

Dr Kazonga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, thank you. I was carefully listening to the hon. Member of Parliament who was on the Floor. However, there is one expression he used that I have failed to understand. I want to raise this serious point of order on that expression. Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to indicate to this House that we have a ‘fish ban’ in Zambia, when we only have the ‘fishing ban’? 

Is he in order to mislead us with that term?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

As the hon. Member for Chilubi continues to debate, he should take note of that nuance, if I may call it so. 

Hon. Member for Chilubi, you may continue.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, we all know very well that the fishing ban is in place.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chisala: It is, therefore, imperative that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock goes to the areas where we have water bodies and helps to enforce it. I want to stress the point that fish, particularly in Lake Bangweulu, has been depleted because of the illegal fishing methods that are being used by our fishermen. Therefore, it would be ‘prident’ …

Hon. Opposition Members: Prudent!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, it would be prudent for our hon. Minister to make sure that our fisheries officers are provided with the resources to enforce the ban. Currently, they do not have enough money to do so.

Mr Speaker, every year, the monitoring of the ban only begins towards the end of January, which is not ideal. Therefore, I make an ‘umble’ request … 

Hon. Opposition Members: It is humble!

Mr Chisala: … to the hon. Minister to send his deputies to go and help our people in implementing this programme.

Mr Speaker, I also want to request the hon. Minister to give a directive to the Agricultural Co-ordinators at the provincial level to monitor the distribution of the farming inputs because what I saw in Chilubi at the weekend did not impress me. To date, our people in a number of wards, especially the wards on the border with Mpika, have not received the inputs. Out of twenty-two wards, only twelve have received the inputs. Therefore, we must make an effort to provide our people with the farming inputs so that they can finish planting by the end of this month.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. We know very well that, when the PF Government came to power, it decided that, in order for our people, especially those in rural areas to have education, the education system needed to be transformed from basic and high schools to primary and secondary schools. However, this year, very little has been done about this. Therefore, I appeal to the hon. Minister to follow-up on this issue so that, in January, next year, this programme can be effected in all schools in the country.

Mr Speaker, it would be wise for the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to ensure that the schools, especially secondary schools which were being constructed this year, are completed so that they can open in January or February next year. 

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for according me this opportunity to support the Motion to Suspend Standing Order 20 and 21 (1).

Mr Speaker, we have been meeting for quite some time now, as reflected in the statement by His Honour the Vice-President, who was right in stating that the challenge in our nation, today, is the enhancement of good governance. Indeed, that is one of the biggest challenges we have. 

Sir, one of the dimensions of that challenge is the welfare of people in our constituencies.

One of the areas which are pertinent to the welfare of our people in the constituencies is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We are now remaining with only nineteen days to go before the end of the year, but in some constituencies like Nalikwanda, the CDF has not been received and yet, when the House rose last time, His Honour the Vice-President assured all of us that the CDF would be made available within four weeks. Of course, there have been several assurances to that effect coming from the hon. Minister responsible for the CDF.

Mr Speaker, I am sure that quite a number of constituencies have received their money, especially those that belong to the Ruling Party.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Masebo: It is okay!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is a reflection of bad governance. There is no reason children, for example, who can benefit from the CDF, are being discriminated against. There is no reason elderly people who could benefit from the CDF are discriminated against. 

Sir, this is a clear indication of poor governance which our colleagues who are running the affairs of this nation are demonstrating today. This is not even in the interest of the statements that they make on the Floor of this House, that they are running an inclusive Government. Clearly, if you cannot afford to allocate or provide the CDF to all the constituencies in the Republic, it is not a good indication of good governance. In fact, that is poor governance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: You have clearly indicated that from that alone, you have failed to meet the expectations of our people, especially in the rural areas.

Mr Livune: Zoona!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge His Honour the Vice-President to take into account that the Government is not doing well as far as the CDF is concerned, as it deliberates in Cabinet. There is absolutely no justification in punishing the people poor in the deserving constituencies of our nation. That is discriminatory and is not in accordance with good governance.

Sir, another dimension that ought to be taken seriously, in line with good governance is, of course, what has happened this year, especially when we look at the challenge of the rights of our people. We are increasingly seeing the curtailment of various freedoms among our people. Our people are not able to assemble in a manner that they would like to. They are not able to express themselves freely in a manner that they would like to. That is definitely a curtailment of the freedom of movement, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and, generally, an abrogation of our rights as human beings and citizens of this nation.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, in support of the Motion, just before business was suspended, I was focusing on His Honour the Vice-President’s statement of focusing on good governance. I indicated the problem of delivery of the CDF and also the challenge of upholding our democratic principles and values.

Sir, clearly, there is a major concern in our nation today, as far as upholding democratic values is concerned. We are increasingly seeing a dark cloud over our nation just like the armyworms that have infested our farmlands. 

Mr Speaker, the challenge of the dark cloud over our nation, politically speaking, is what is happening in the area of the mutilation of our democratic values. We are increasingly seeing that our people are denied their freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of movement and, generally, that is causing a lot of anxiety, concern and worry among the greater majority of our people. 

Sir, this is not good for our democracy, and it poses a challenge to the good governance programme which the Executive ought to be administering and by which we are being assessed through the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM). His Honour the Vice-President is aware of the fact that we are constantly under watch, as a nation, in terms of the indicators of good governance and how well we carry them out.

Mr Speaker, there is no contestation in as far as multipartism is concerned. That is a choice that we made in 1991 and there is no going back. I do not think there will ever be a time when we shall go back to a one-party dictatorship. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: We made a choice, as a nation, that there will always be a contestation of ideas in order to avail an opportunity to our people to choose those whose ideas of governance they appreciate. Therefore, what the Executive should do is protect multipartism and our democratic values because they are cardinal to our political and national development. The problem that we are facing is the instilling of fear in our people to the extent that they cannot talk, move and meet freely. That is antidemocratic. As far as our democracy is concerned, that will and should be challenged earnestly at all times.

Mr Speaker, use of the apparatus of the State, especially to prevent the Opposition from meeting their people and moving freely is antidemocratic and not in accordance with good governance. The Executive must do some soul searching and ask whether what is being done by the police and even the army is in accordance with good governance. They must examine whether that is in line with our democratic principles and our multi-party system of governance. 

Sir, as we look to 2013, we hope that our colleagues will begin to abide by the values and principles which we have chosen to live by, as a nation. This is a country that was politically held in very high esteem because we were the hosts to various liberation movements. Our people strongly supported the freedom of other nations around us. Our choice to pursue multipartism and abide by democratic principles has earned us the respect of the nations around us and that should be upheld. We should not go back to the one-party dictatorship where people’s human rights were restricted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there is a need to protect all our people regardless of where they are. There is no reason for an army to be sent to the Western Province. If there are any people in the Western Province who are breaking the law then, the police will ensure that they are brought to book.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: There is no need to send army personnel to that part of the country. As we are all aware, that is a section of our nation where people have been living in fear since the 1960s. They saw the liberation of Angola and Namibia and they were host to liberation personnel and so they still live in fear. They have not been able to take part in their own development because of the liberation struggle that they had to endure. 

Sir, almost fifty years after Independence, there is no justifiable reason to instill more fear in those people. Let the civil officers like the police do their work instead of the army. I hope that as we enter 2013, steps will be taken to ensure that we do not instill fear in the citizens of any part of our nation. You can imagine how little children feel when they see armed soldiers around them. Is this necessary even after fifty years of Independence?

Mr Speaker, the rains have arrived and a number of our culverts will be washed away. People will not be able to cross rivers. It is the duty of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to ensure that the difficulties our people will be facing are looked into expeditiously so that there is no hardship that will be further inflicted on our people. I told the Office of the Vice-President that Nalikwanda Constituency is on the verge of being cut off because the culverts on the main road have been washed away. This was reported last year, but nothing was done to one particular culvert which is extremely important in terms of accessing the constituency. At the moment, other culverts are being washed away and I hope that the DMMU will be able to attend to these difficulties as and when we report them. This is a matter that His Honour the Vice-President is aware of. 

Mr Speaker, there have been delays in the disbursement of funding by the Ministry of Finance. 

I know that in the 2012 Budget, K1 billion was set aside for Nalikwanda Road but that money has not up to now been disbursed. Clearly, that is not good. That is not an indication of good governance and inclusive development because in places such as Nalikwanda, we have people who have to walk for 60 km to go to Mongu on foot because the road is inaccessible. Mini buses and taxies cannot go there. This is the problem we have been reporting over and over. 

Sir, we are remaining with nineteen days before the end of 2012 and the questions that the poor villagers of Nalikwanda are asking are, “Why has the Ministry of Finance not disbursed our K1 billion for our road? What is the problem? Is K1 billion too much money to disburse so that work can start on the road?” These are small things but extremely important for the enhancement of the quality of life of the people in the rural areas. It is these small things which will make the concepts we use to explain ourselves empty. Even if we say we are for equity, we are for inclusive development. If such things cannot be done, those principles are empty and meaningless.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. Let me also thank His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Scott for indeed, moving this non-controversial Motion to Suspend Standing Orders to allow the House dispense all the business on the Order Paper.

Mr Speaker, yes, indeed, forty-six days of sitting in this House with the Business that has been placed on the Order Paper has been very agonising for me due to what I term, the indifferent attitude of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, especially when it comes to rendering innocent advice to them. We are going to our respective constituencies tomorrow in order for us to go and crystallise what the Zambian people already know in the failures of the PF Government. 

Sir, the Zambians have already known the short comings of this Government in all areas of governance. When we started this session, I rated the PF from the state of the National Address to the Budget. We are going back home to explain in more detail to our people the defective nature of this Budget that we have passed this year with an unprecedented 159 plus or minus amendments. We are going to explain in greater detail to the people of our constituencies, the short comings in the maize marketing and short comings of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), which has only provided stress on our people. We are going to go back to crystallise the issue surrounding the Public Order Act in our constituencies. We are going to explain to our constituencies in no uncertain terms, that the Government that they put in is paranoid. We are going to explain in detail that the Government that the Zambian people put to be in charge of the affairs is a very frightened Government. It is not only frightened about us, in the Opposition but also, frightened amongst themselves. 

Mr Speaker, we are going to report to our constituencies on how within the same cabinet, there are accusations and counter accusations of corrupt practices. We are going to remind the people about “Don’t Kubeba”, meaning “do not tell them”, the slogan that provided the platform within which PF found favour with the Zambian people. This is to show them that this, “Don’t Kubeba” is still alive, today and one year down the line. We are going to explain to the people across the country how PF chose, against all oaths and against interpretations of the law to allocate money in the defective Budgets and in Budget lines whose offices do not exist. 

Sir, I know that some are listening right now but we are going to crystallise that position. Since we cannot be allowed our fundamental inherent freedom of association and our inherent freedom of expression, we have ordered entire verbatim of this particular sitting to play on all community radio stations so that the people who have not had the privilege to listen to the deliberations can know who the PF are, in no uncertain terms. We are going to do everything possible to reach our people since the PF, through the Ministry of Home Affairs are making it difficult for us to meet our people. We are going to use some of our little earnings from here to pay radio stations to play back what has been happening in this House. We are going to tell the people how yesterday, we chose to walk out in protest of what we call a mutilation of democracy. We are going to tell the people about the hypocrisy of the PF Government where in one breath, the Head of State says, “you are all welcome to present your issues to me” and when we attempted to do that yesterday, we were confronted by one overzealous individual who is high ranking in the police force, who told us that we should instead, go to his office and not air our views. The hypocrisy that I am referring to is that we are going to report to the people that actually what the President meant was that we can only go to State House at night and in individual capacities. This means that we can only go there if they want to offer you something to come and debate on the Floor of this House in a line that appears stewed to the desires of those that are in Government. We are going to tell the people all this. We are going to indicate to the people that we are under siege. 

Mr Speaker, about fifteen years ago, I worked very closely with the Vice-President and we used to be in the same office. In moving the Motion, I expected the Vice-President to indicate what solutions they have found regarding the army worms. I expected that the Vice-President was going to actually put it in no uncertain terms that there was a looming disaster and the declaration of that disaster but I do understand why he restrained himself from actually pronouncing that we have a national disaster. This is because each time we pronounce a national disaster, the donors come to our aid. Clearly, this Government has no respect for donors. A few days ago, we heard from the hon. Minister of Justice who said that donors do not even vote. He also indicated that we, from this side (Opposition) are having tea with donors as if when they were on this side, they never used to do the same. 

We are going to report to the Zambians that His Honour the Vice-President, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock and the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art who appeared on television like a Muppet show. We saw one hon. Minister asking another hon. Minister from the same Cabinet what he was going to do for the people of Chongwe. That to me is like a Muppet show or maybe, to bring the argument closer to home, it is like difficulti and bikiloni …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … where the people who are charged with the responsibility of looking after our affairs are busy playing to the gallery on television. Sir, I want to state that this morning, your Honour the Vice-President …

Mr Speaker: You should address the hon. Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, through you, I got a call from your late colleague Honourable Rex Natala’s farm to indicate that the army worms had also invaded Lubombo area where your friends the coventries live …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … and where Guy Robinsons live. So we are under siege. It would have been prudent for His Honour the Vice-President to declare a disaster so that the donors can come to our aid. However, they are clearly doing a donchi kubeba on the donors.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Nkombo, please, avoid the use of the vernacular words because you will break communication in the process and it is not parliamentary.

Mr Nkombo: I will gladly translate that the deceptive word of hoodwinking citizens. There is a national disaster that is looming regarding these army worms. Even at my own small holdings, I have been given a report that these army worms have started manifesting.

Sir, it is important that as we go back to our constituencies, we should not leave this country vulnerable because part of the process when we sit around here is to provide checks and balances. We have seen how they have used their strong arm to do things as they wish. I shudder to imagine this one month when we will be out in the constituencies what they will do and by the time we come back I doubt if we will find a country.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I am not certain we will find a country because when we report back to our constituencies they will remain running the affairs of this country. I pray to my God that they should stop the Muppet show and get down to work. I can single out a few very serious cabinet hon. Ministers who are also gifted by God with humility. The hon. Minister of Finance is one of them and the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication has also started demonstrating some humility. It is my prayer that this humility can be infectious to the rest of the hon. Ministers so that we can find this country intent.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, whilst you are commending particular individuals, you are also departing from a very well settled practice of avoiding to refer to individuals while debating whether in a negative or positive way.

Mr Nkombo: I value your advice, Sir. 

Sir, the final subject that I want to put across is bouncing off the same issue of the public order and governance. In the last three months, within the forty-six days that we have sat here, there was the issue of the paranoia that I spoke about regarding a pseudo or imaginary group called Tongas under oath. We heard His Excellency say that Tongas under oath are in Lusaka, but I want to state to this House through you, Sir, that the police have been busy harassing young boys in Choma, grabbing their mobile phones and accusing them of atrocities. That amounts to the intimidation that Professor Lungwangwa was referring to. 

Let me just remind His Honour the Vice-President who is the head of Government business that we are your colleagues and are supposed to complement your effort in order to make the aspirations and interests of those people who sent us to this House be realised. As such we should never be perceived as enemies because we have a platform within which we can tell you what we think is correct. You also have a platform of telling us what you think is correct except that you are mandated by the Zambian people to implement what you think is correct.

Sir, this Public Order Act and the way they are using it is going to haunt them for a very long time to come. It is true that we had very strong men even on this continent which include Jean-Bedel Bokassa, Muammar Gaddafi …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious and probably the last point of order. 

Mr Speaker: Order! Order! Order!

Mr Kampyongo: I have been listening to the hon. Member debating and in his debate he has made a lot of insinuations of how he is expecting this Government not to be functional when we go on recess and now he is finally attacking the law which was enacted and owned by this House.

Mr Speaker: What is your point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, my point of order is that is the hon. Member in order to attack his own law passed by this august House. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which law?

Mr Kampyongo: The Public Order Act.

Mr Speaker: My short ruling is that His Honour the Vice-President will eventually wind up the debate and in so doing he is at liberty to respond to various issues that are being raised on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I was in the middle of giving my colleagues the hon. Government Members a catalogue of my individuals who became so powerful on this continent and who ended up in a man hole. There was Muammar Gaddafi, Laurent Gbagbo, Mobutu Kuku Ngbendu Wa Za Banga Sese Seko, and Field Marshall-General Idi Amin Dada who was the conqueror of the British Empire.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Those were strong men who did not condone any dissenting view. However, in a multi-party democratic setup, please, find it in your heart to understand that you need to be reminded. As the hon. Minister of Information correctly put it a few days ago, he stated that advice can be rendered but it is up to them to take it or leave it. He was referring to the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ).

Hon. UPND Member: Learned people.
Mr Nkombo: These are learned people who know how to translate the law. In his statement it was clear that he was saying we have decided we will not take your advice, we are going to take our own route. In Tonga we say kamuya mana mani.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: This means keep going in the muchibanda. Chitwa buti chibanda?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, this saying means keep going in the plain but even if make a u-turn we will still see you coming back. There shall come a time when the Zambia people will say amukahwide achulu balila kabakunkulika kulyata. What that means is that like we have seen the army worms, there will be a curse on this Government. The moment you see people scrabbling all over among themselves except for a few is a bad sign in governance. They should also learn to wash their dirty linen outside the public. It may give confidence to those of us who are being led, if today we do not hear honorable someone fighting another someone and now we are hearing the ultimatums.

Finally, Sir, I wish all hon. Members and you, Sir, a prosperous 2013, which approaches. As I go, I will go on my knees and pray that the infectious nature of certain people’s humility starts to permeate into other hon. Members of Parliament who, sometimes, require a little culture. 

With these few, but sombre remarks, I thank the institution, as a whole, your seat of authority, Sir, all clerking staff, including those who supported me by giving me a cotton jacket when I was thrown out for wearing a cotton jacket …

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: … so that I could get back and do what the people of Mazabuka Central sent me to do. 

I thank you, most sincerely, Sir. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to make my last debate in the year, month and day, 12/12/12, ... 

Mr Mushanga: Baleya mukufwa, aba?

Mr Mwiimbu: … which will not recur in our lifetime. 

Mr Speaker, in my tribe, we are advised that some names are not to be given to children for fear of those children being naughty and truant. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They strongly advise us against that. 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members on your left have noted that some name should not even be given to political parties for the same reason by which some names are not given to children; that the party would become dictatorial, lawless, unruly and abuse the governed. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That name is ‘Patriotic Front’. 

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, wherever this name is used, there are dictatorial tendencies, abuse of human rights, violations of the rights of citizens and arrogance of the leadership as well as impunity.  

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, check around the Continent of Africa. Wherever there is a party called Patriotic Front in the Government, there are problems. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: There is a party called Patriotic Front across the river, and some have existed in Rwanda, Liberia and Sierra-Leone, and the atrocities that were committed against the people by these parties …

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: … were abominable.  

I would like to advise our friends that it is not too late to discard this name. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Maybe, when they do so, then, they will start leading us prudently. 

Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mbulakulima interjected. 

Mr Mwiimbu: … I am going home with a heavy heart. 

Mr Mbulakulima interjected. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chembe, you have no liberty to speak as you please. 

Mr Speaker: You have no liberty. 

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Member: Freedom of expression. 

Mr Speaker: That is not part of freedom of expression. 

The hon. Member for Monze may continue. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am going home with a heavy heart, and I think that this is what is obtaining in the hearts of my colleagues. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I have noted, with concern, the sentiments that are being expressed by my colleagues on your right in trying to justify their actions based on the past deeds of the MMD. Whenever we complain about issues pertaining to the governance of this country, the answer that comes out from our colleagues, with no sense of shame, is that the MMD used to do certain things the same way, yet we used to condemn those actions of the MMD together. 

Sir, two wrongs do not make a right. The wrong things that were done by the MMD, if any, cannot be right now. Together, we used to condemn the enforcement of the Public Order Act. It is not Act, per se, which is wrong, but the discretion of those interpreting and enforcing it. This is what we have been condemning. 

Mr Speaker, the way the Public Order Act is being enforced in this country by the PF is a shame to democracy and anathema to the good governance of the country. We have noted, with concern, that, whenever PF cadres or officials want to demonstrate, they do so with impunity. They do not even notify the police in any way. We have also noted certain situations where the police are harassed by PF cadres and they are not protected by my colleague, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. We have the evidence. We even have evidence of party cadres carrying guns, the serial numbers of which we have provided to the police, but no action has been taken against the culprits. 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we have evidence of known PF party cadres have been harassing citizens, and reports have been made, yet no action has been taken against these individuals. Currently, there are laws for the PF and other laws for the ordinary Zambians like us. 

Mr Speaker, if we are not careful, this country will degenerate into chaos. For the first time, a Government that is in power, within a period of one year six months, is being condemned by the  three church mother bodies and the civil society for failing to manage the affairs of the country. 

Mr Speaker, our colleagues are failing to govern prudently, and we earnestly appeal to them to search their souls and govern us prudently. You have been accorded the privilege of ruling this country until 2016. Do not abuse that privilege. Our friends used to be advised, but they never listened and their failure to heed that advice led them to this side of the House. You will find yourselves in the same situation, come 2016. At the rate you are losing popularity, if I were you, I would search my soul. 

Mr Speaker, we have noted that our colleagues on your right, whenever we advise them prudently, always refer to us as bitter individuals who are envious of their being in Government.  I will never be envious of them.  

I was offered a position in this Government.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes! You are not the appointing authority. 

I was offered a position …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Mwiimbu, you now risk beginning to debate yourself as a person. That may not be in accord with the decorum and, indeed, the dignity of the House.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu:  Mr Speaker, in accordance with the decorum of this House, I appeal to my colleagues not to taunt me because, if they do, I will respond accordingly.

Mr Speaker, we, hon. Members on your left, appeal to the Government of the day to ensure that there is no segregation, whatsoever, in the development of this country. We, as hon. Members who hail from the Southern Province, especially, have noted, with concern, that a number of developmental projects are eluding us. Recently, it was announced that a stadium that was supposed to be constructed in the Southern Province, Livingstone, in particular, has been halted pending the completion of stadia to be constructed elsewhere. We are not against the implementation of developmental projects anywhere, but only appealing that we be accorded the same privilege as other regions.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members from the Southern Province have been assured on several occasions that the province will be discriminated positively in terms of the provision of water for human consumption and for domestic animals.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that the Southern Province is a dry area; it is almost a desert. We are appealing to the Government of the day to look at us and our plight positively. We are not asking for favours, but what we are rightfully entitled to.

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, ...

Naiwe wine iwe wine!

Laughter

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member debating in order…

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!{mospagebreak}

Ms Kapata: ... to say that the PF Government is sidelining the Southern Province when we have records to show that any hon. Member from the Southern Province who works with the PF Government is castigated by the UPND President. Is he in order not to mention that they cannot work with us because their President scares them? 

I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I had indicated, earlier, that His Honour the Vice-President will respond to a number of these issues, and I am sure that he has taken note of all the issues being raised. Therefore, for the sake of order and progress, let us give each other the opportunity to speak. 

I know that certain speeches cause discomfort, but that should not be the reason for not listening to each other.

May the hon. Member for Monze Central continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I want to put on record that, as hon. Members from the Southern Province, we have never said that we will not work with the Government of the day. We have never done that. However, we have stated that we will never be swallowed by or join the PF, as a party. We will never do that. That is what we are refusing to do.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let me have some order on my left. Hon. Mwiimbu does not require any assistance in speaking on behalf of the people of Monze Central. You have your own respective constituencies. Therefore, let him represent Monze Central.

Hon. Mwiimbu, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as people of the Southern Province, we have some roads that are dear to us. For example, we have the Bottom Road, which has been on the drawing board since Independence. Every year, we get assurances that adequate funds will be provided to ensure that it is done, but, alas! Year in and year out, we are being given crumbs to use in working on the Bottom Road.

Mr Speaker, we also have the Monze/Niko Road …

Ms Imenda: Hear, Hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … about which we were assured by the President of the Republic of Zambia that it would be worked on in 2012. I tend to think that was a slip of the tongue because 2012 is ending. Maybe, he meant 2013. We just hope that the road will be done in 2013 with due urgency like the due urgency that is accorded to road construction in other areas.

Mr Speaker, we have also noted that the Southern Province is the only one that has had a number of hon. Provincial Ministers being appointed and disappointed within a short period of time. We have also noted that these hon. Ministers who served or purportedly served in the province never had the opportunity to discuss with hon. Members of Parliament in the province. We were never accorded that opportunity. We have been calling for meetings with the hon. Ministers so that we can discuss developmental projects in this province. Unfortunately, we have never been accorded that opportunity.

Sir, we have been crying that the township roads in Monze, Namwala, Kalomo, Mazabuka and all the districts of the Southern Province be rehabilitated. However, we have noted, with concern, that there is no provision for the rehabilitation of roads in our various townships. I hope that His Honour the Vice-President will respond because I have heard the hon. Minister of Finance say that there is money, although he is mentioning it quietly. I hope that it is an assurance that, this coming year, there will be money to tar the roads in Monze.

Mr Speaker, we have also been appealing to the Government, and I hope that my brother, the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, will ensure that the silos in Monze in are rehabilitated in 2013. We all know that the Southern Province is one of the bread baskets of Zambia. Therefore, if we do not rehabilitate the silos, our produce will always go to …

Colonel Kaunda : On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, I need your help. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, debating so well, in order to mourn about the lack of development in the Southern Province, yet, each time we debate, here, they walk out. 

Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central may continue, bearing in mind what has been said.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The hon. Members of Parliament who served under the leadership of the former President Kaunda who hailed from the Southern Province never walked out of this House. They never walked out because during those days, the leadership used to believe in democracy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Even if it was a One-Party State, the hon. Members of Parliament were accorded the opportunity to debate without fear or being harassed by the leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: However, under the leadership of the son, … 

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … we are finding these difficulties that we walk out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Like father like son!

Mr Mwiimbu: He is not like the father.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I also want to echo the sentiments of my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda, that the tension that is purportedly in existence in the Western Province was created by our colleagues, the Patriotic Front (PF), …

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … whereby you assured the people of the Western Province that immediately you came into power, you would restore the Barotseland Agreement. That is the cause of the tension in the Western Province.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: That was your assurance.

Mr Ntundu: Within ninety days!

Mr Mwiimbu: Then, immediately they came into power, Mr Speaker, …

Mr Ntundu: They changed!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they commissioned a Commission of Inquiry which has submitted its report on the issue of Barotseland, but have failed to act on it.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the only action they have sanctioned is to promote one of the perpetrators of heinous crimes of the people of the Western Province to a high position in the Police Force.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what they have done.

Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to our colleague that in order to reduce the tension in the Western Province, they should sit down and negotiate with the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE).

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Honour up! If you have difficulties, tell the people of the Western Province the difficulties you are encountering in honouring the agreement. I know that the people of the Western Province are very prudent and reasonable people. If the reasons are genuine, they will agree and I have heard that they will agree.

Mr Ntundu: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, let us not create tension deliberately in this country. We need peace. We have been a peace-loving country since Independence. Let us not lose the peace that we have cherished under Hon. Colonel Panji Kaunda’s father’s leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We should emulate that leadership.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion moved by His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Scott, to suspend the Standing Orders. 

Sir, in my language, there is an adage which goes, “Apa komaila nondo, nishi pali ubulema.”

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Meaning, when it comes to issues of good governance, if we insist on talking about the Public Order Act, it means that there is something wrong.

Sir, I remember very well, not too long ago, in 2010, and during the countdown to the 2011 Elections, I was one of those people, then in the Civil Society, who spoke about how the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government then, abused this particular piece of legislation. One of the reasons the MMD, today, is sitting with me on this side, is of that particular Act and how they abused it.

Mr Speaker, when the MMD Members stopped listening, the people of Zambia worked together and wanted change. The change that they wanted was positive change but, today, we seem to be witnessing what I refer to as a ‘false start’. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: I say so, Sir, without any malice whatsoever and I mean well. Most of the people that are on your right are my own blood relatives. That is a fact.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yeah!

Mr Mucheleka: When I speak, I mean well.

Hon. MMD Member: Walikwata amano, iwe!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, the problem which is there is that the good will of the people is now being mismanaged by this Government.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: The mismanagement of the good will has begun too early.

Mr Musukwa: Question!

Mr Mucheleka: The MMD, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Can we avoid these running commentaries?

Mr Mucheleka: … should I say in phase one, did very well but, towards the end, that is when they went astray and, today, they are here. However, the Patriotic Front (PF) Members have begun too early … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: … and I feel sorry for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr Mucheleka: Through you, Mr Speaker, one of the actions that my own uncle had to perform as hon. Minister of Finance, was to sign for the Millennium Challenge Account (MCA) Funds, which is meant to help the Lusaka City Council work on the water project in Lusaka given by the good people of America based on the good will that was given to the PF. One of the conditions of the MCA is ruling justly and the rule of law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: I look forward to seeing the Ibrahim Governance Index for 2012. I feel disappointed. 

Sir, instead of the PF focusing on enhanced service delivery and how to reduce poverty in the rural and peri-urban areas, the focus is seriously misplaced. I hope when we come back, indeed, as one of the hon. Members has said, we shall be able to find these people. 

Laughter

Mr Livune: They will run away.

Mr Mucheleka: This is because there is in fighting. Once they are done with us, they will start looking for enemies amongst themselves.

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: That is happening!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, this time, in Lubansenshi Constituency, the feeder roads are in a state of disrepair. The farmers cannot transport their input to the central district of Luwingu, hence the people need to be helped. The focus should be on repairing the feeder roads so that the people can have good access to markets and storage facilities.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central may continue, bearing in mind what has been said.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The hon. Members of Parliament who served under the leadership of the former President Kaunda who hailed from the Southern Province never walked out of this House. They never walked out because during those days, the leadership used to believe in democracy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Even if it was a One-Party State, the hon. Members of Parliament were accorded the opportunity to debate without fear or being harassed by the leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: However, under the leadership of the son, … 

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … we are finding these difficulties that we walk out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Like father like son!

Mr Mwiimbu: He is not like the father.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I also want to echo the sentiments of my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda, that the tension that is purportedly in existence in the Western Province was created by our colleagues, the Patriotic Front (PF), …

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … whereby you assured the people of the Western Province that immediately you came into power, you would restore the Barotseland Agreement. That is the cause of the tension in the Western Province.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: That was your assurance.

Mr Ntundu: Within ninety days!

Mr Mwiimbu: Then, immediately they came into power, Mr Speaker, …

Mr Ntundu: They changed!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they commissioned a Commission of Inquiry which has submitted its report on the issue of Barotseland, but have failed to act on it.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the only action they have sanctioned is to promote one of the perpetrators of heinous crimes of the people of the Western Province to a high position in the Police Force.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what they have done.

Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to our colleague that in order to reduce the tension in the Western Province, they should sit down and negotiate with the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE).

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Honour up! If you have difficulties, tell the people of the Western Province the difficulties you are encountering in honouring the agreement. I know that the people of the Western Province are very prudent and reasonable people. If the reasons are genuine, they will agree and I have heard that they will agree.

Mr Ntundu: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, let us not create tension deliberately in this country. We need peace. We have been a peace-loving country since Independence. Let us not lose the peace that we have cherished under Hon. Colonel Panji Kaunda’s father’s leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We should emulate that leadership.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion moved by His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Scott, to suspend the Standing Orders. 

Sir, in my language, there is an adage which goes, “Apa komaila nondo, nishi pali ubulema.”

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Meaning, when it comes to issues of good governance, if we insist on talking about the Public Order Act, it means that there is something wrong.

Sir, I remember very well, not too long ago, in 2010, and during the countdown to the 2011 Elections, I was one of those people, then in the Civil Society, who spoke about how the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government then, abused this particular piece of legislation. One of the reasons the MMD, today, is sitting with me on this side, is of that particular Act and how they abused it.

Mr Speaker, when the MMD Members stopped listening, the people of Zambia worked together and wanted change. The change that they wanted was positive change but, today, we seem to be witnessing what I refer to as a ‘false start’. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: I say so, Sir, without any malice whatsoever and I mean well. Most of the people that are on your right are my own blood relatives. That is a fact.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yeah!

Mr Mucheleka: When I speak, I mean well.

Hon. MMD Member: Walikwata amano, iwe!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, the problem which is there is that the good will of the people is now being mismanaged by this Government.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: The mismanagement of the good will has begun too early.

Mr Musukwa: Question!

Mr Mucheleka: The MMD, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Can we avoid these running commentaries?

Mr Mucheleka: … should I say in phase one, did very well but, towards the end, that is when they went astray and, today, they are here. However, the Patriotic Front (PF) Members have begun too early … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: … and I feel sorry for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr Mucheleka: Through you, Mr Speaker, one of the actions that my own uncle had to perform as hon. Minister of Finance, was to sign for the Millennium Challenge Account (MCA) Funds, which is meant to help the Lusaka City Council work on the water project in Lusaka given by the good people of America based on the good will that was given to the PF. One of the conditions of the MCA is ruling justly and the rule of law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: I look forward to seeing the Ibrahim Governance Index for 2012. I feel disappointed. 

Sir, instead of the PF focusing on enhanced service delivery and how to reduce poverty in the rural and peri-urban areas, the focus is seriously misplaced. I hope when we come back, indeed, as one of the hon. Members has said, we shall be able to find these people. 

Laughter

Mr Livune: They will run away.

Mr Mucheleka: This is because there is in fighting. Once they are done with us, they will start looking for enemies amongst themselves.

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: That is happening!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, this time, in Lubansenshi Constituency, the feeder roads are in a state of disrepair. The farmers cannot transport their input to the central district of Luwingu, hence the people need to be helped. The focus should be on repairing the feeder roads so that the people can have good access to markets and storage facilities.

  However, if your preoccupation is to first of all, fight everyone here, and take us into a one-party state, I want to assure you that never, again, in this country, will we allow you to take us back to a one-party state. That era is gone.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: I would like to make a passionate appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to go out there and sensitise people. I would like to say that it does not matter which political party you belong to. I was voted for by the people as an independent Member of Parliament and I would rather be a one-term Member of Parliament than allow this kind of abuse of human rights.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: I feel so sad. The people of this country are listening to everyone who is speaking and they are disillusioned. I have heard some hon. Members saying civil society is an affiliate of the PF Government. They are not. They may also have been victims of that same donchi kubeba, where you hoodwink people. The issues that were raised about the MMD were raised by the civil society and, the PF, clever as they think they are, quickly picked those issues up and people said we want change. I want to tell you that the civil society is watching and they are disappointed. Sooner or later, they will show you that they are still there.

Mr Speaker, in this country, when the President says he has an open door policy for all of us, in this era and age, hon. Members of Parliament should be able to see the President when they want to, but what are we faced with? Soldiers and the police coming to stop us from meeting.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Can we have order, unless you do not want the hon. Member to continue.

Mr Mucheleka: … so, my appeal to my relatives who are in Government …

Hon. Government Member: We are not your relative.

Mr Mucheleka: …my relatives know themselves. Sir, I am Catholic myself and in the Catholic faith, when there is something wrong or if you have a problem, sometimes we go into a retreat. May I make a passionate appeal to this PF Government to go for a retreat as we go on this break so that they do some soul-searching. As I speak to you right now, the people in my constituency have not yet got their inputs. They were not paid their money on time and after they were paid, they started waiting for fertiliser and seed, which they still have not received. They are spending sleepless nights in Luwingu Boma to try and get their inputs and they are saying we wish we knew.

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order which is also the last point of order in this sitting. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi Constituency, who is my neighbour, in order to mislead the nation that the people in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency have not received the farming inputs when in actual fact, he does not even go to the constituency? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I do not want to go to the book of revelations but hon. Member, please take that point into account as you debate.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, at this stage when we are talking about allocation of resources, I did an analysis and I looked at how much money was allocated to each province for development projects. I noticed that when you consider the proposed Budget for 2013, less than five per cent of the funds are indeed going to development projects, which should be able to help reduce poverty.

Sir, in the Northern Province for instance, I noticed that only K4 billion has been allocated for feeder roads. If you divide that figure by the number of constituencies, it gives you an average of about K150 million per constituency and I say how then will this Government help to reduce poverty? When I look at how much money has been allocated for infrastructure development, schools, clinics or hospitals, I look forward to seeing the construction of those clinics that we have been promised. That will go a long way in enabling our people in rural areas to access health services.

Mr Speaker, allow me to stress the importance of good governance in sustained economic growth and poverty reduction. Good governance is a preamble for sustained economic growth and poverty reduction. At the rate we are going, the good will of the Zambian people as well as that of the international community is being misused. I concur with other hon. Members of Parliament that talked about, how today, the PF Government can indeed come to this House and talk about the international community in the negative sense. It makes me feel very sad.

Mr Speaker, my advice to the PF Government is that they should refocus their priorities. A crunch time always comes. When you are in the Constituency and that crunch time comes, we will all be by ourselves. In 2011, it was easy to mislead people but come 2016, we will all be judged by our own record. So, whether you say, as Hon Doctor Kazonga likes to say, wakufa sazibika meaning when you say Mucheleka will loose election, it may even be you.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: My concern in all these dialects is there seems to be a lot of distortions but let us continue.

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, our colleagues should not get excited. They are now in Government and, therefore, should provide leadership for this country. Even when they are calling themselves ‘boma’ and so on, they should realise that some hon. Members on this side today were also boma.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: The same way I am advising the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is the same way I advised the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government when I was in the civil society but it never listened. I am again advising this Government that people are watching and, therefore, it has to listen to what others are saying. Our colleagues in the Ruling Party should focus on service delivery. However, instead of doing that, some even want to succeed the President when he is still serving as the Head of State. They are busy identifying enemies or those who will challenge them for that office and even writing letters to suspended …

Mr Speaker: Now you are debating individuals. Are you through?

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I want to sincerely wish the hon. Members of Parliament a merry Christmas. They should not be afraid because this is our country. Personally, I will not be intimidated. I was elected by the people of Lubansenshi Constituency and with or without the threat of the Public Order Act, I am going to meet my constituents. I will go everywhere. If the Government wants, it can come and arrest me in Lubansenshi for disregarding the Public Order Act, which is a bad law.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, now you have started debating yourself.

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I wish all the hon. Members of Parliament a merry Christmas and prosperous new year. I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, as I rise to support the motion, I will not fail in my duties to express the fear that I have as a result of what I see through my own deductive reasoning that we are faced with a bleak future. We have achieved a meaningless level or classification of development. We are reliably informed that we are now a lower middle income country. This lower middle income country status has not come with any benefits for our people at all. Meaningful development is one where citizens participate in the economic activities that underwrite their gross domestic product (GDP) but beyond that, they also participate in the enjoyment of the benefits that come with economic growth. Our people have not experienced that.

Mr Speaker, I came to Parliament on 20th September, 2011 and I cannot for the life of me account for anything that collectively, as the three arms of government, we have been able to give back to our people as a gift. We are still so underdeveloped and do not have economic and social infrastructure. We have not provided jobs to our people and as a consequence of that, poverty still remains enshrined in most of our homes.

Mr Speaker, this success of attaining lower middle income country status, much as we celebrated it, has brought us problems. Next year we will have no more donor support and we all know that our Budget is heavily reliant on that. We have also increased the civil service wage bill at a time when donor support will be withdrawn. We have also increased districts and provinces, meaning that we have increased …

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing to raising this serious point of order. I have sat here since I came in and heard a lot of hon. Members of Parliament debating. Some of the issues they have raised are not making sense. Now …

Mr Speaker: What is your point of order?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker, I am just coming to that, since two weeks from now it is New Year’s Day. Is that hon. Member of Parliament debating in order to insinuate that next year all donors will withdraw their support to this country without telling us the reasons and laying the evidence on the Table?

Mr Speaker: I would like to repeat what I said earlier on. The Vice-President is taking note of all these issues. Therefore, do not feel overly anxious about the concerns that are being raised. He will respond on behalf of the Government.

The hon. Member for Solwezi Central may continue.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I had just said we have increased the number of districts and provinces, thus putting pressure on our funding needs. Our population is also growing at 2.8 per cent and close to 8 million of our people live in rural areas where there are no jobs. Therefore, they do not contribute to our tax base. About 7.6 million of our people are aged above fifteen years old and, therefore, form our potential labour force, and that is against only 500,000 formal jobs.

Mr Speaker, we have borrowed US$750 million and we plan to invest this money in long term projects. This is good but very soon we will be required to repay this money. By the time we will be required to repay it, this money will not have contributed to towards creating the resilience and reproductive capacity of our economy because of the nature of the projects and type of funding that we have obtained. This means that in ten years time, we will be required to repay US$750 million out of an economy to which that amount of money will not have contributed towards creating capacity to repay it.

Mr Speaker, at the rate we are moving in terms of exploitation of our mineral resources, in ten to twenty years time there might be no mining taking place in Zambia. I will give you a specific example. Kansanshi Mine started with a twenty year lifespan, which was quickly reduced to fifteen years due to heavy capital investment. Today, unless we find new ore bodies, Kansanshi Mine might just have less than ten years to go.  Against that background, we have also embarked on the Link Zambia 8,000 road project. If it is true that we require K5 billion to construct 1km of road, it means that we require K40 trillion, which is US$8 billion, to complete that project. Where are we going to find this money?

As we adjourn sine die, Mr Speaker, I would like to urge Cabinet, especially the hon. Minister of Finance to reflect on how we have governed ourselves and if at all this is working for us. We have governed ourselves in this manner for forty-eight years and we are not developed at all. We need to ask ourselves difficult questions. Are we going to still continue on this path? Do we still continue creating new districts and provinces which are cost centres rather than dealing with the engines of the economy? The people of North-Western Province have been very categorical on this issue. They have opted for a federal state and this is not because they have minerals, but it is because of the benefits that can come from a federal system of governance.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Every province, Mr Speaker, will be put on the spot to exploit its own potential. There are problems because of the nature in which we govern ourselves where we just expect the Central Government to dish out money to people. We need to ensure that provinces become the segments of our gross domestic product (GDP). There is no province in Zambia which does not have minerals, tourism potential and agriculture potential, but all these issues remain unexploited because of the nature in which we have been governing ourselves. 

Sir, 93 per cent of our economy is dormant and only 3.7 per cent of our economy is integrated in the globe economy. The mining sector is at 3.7 per cent of our GDP which brings 86 per cent of our foreign exchange earnings. This means that 13 per cent is brought in and that is if the public sector is removed. This is not sustainable. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to unlock the potential of the other 93 per cent. We live in a global world where there are seven billion people who need to eat. Zambia is one of the few countries in the world with three seasons that can support agriculture crop production. Why is it that our agriculture sector is at 3.5 per cent of our GDP?

Mr Speaker, we have the construction sector which accounts for 20 per cent of our GDP, but then the money that is generated out of the construction sector is not invested in Zambia. I will give you an example and I have done it before. The Levy Park Junction was constructed at a cost of almost US$200 million. Only 17 per cent of that money was paid to Zambian consultants and construction companies. The rest of the money was paid to South African investors. What is it that we are failing to do in Zambia? Even the contracts under the Link 8000 are being given to the Chinese. The money that will be spent on those projects will not be invested in Zambia. This is why we are so rich and yet so poor. I once again urge Cabinet, especially the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that this is changed.

Mr Speaker, let me now come to the contentious issue that has been raised by several speakers who spoke before me. This is the manner perhaps in which the PF are dealing with the opposition. I must praise the PF that the energy being extending on dealing with the opposition is impressive and bearing results. It is arrest Mumba. You can even pin point where to arrest him from. Deny him bail and you do that. You should reflect and turn around. If you refocus this energy on job creation, you will achieve a lot …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: … and you will be darling for the Zambian people. I do know that when we point out these mistakes, we are reminded of the pain that the MMD inflicted on you in the past. I want to appeal to you that the pain of the past cannot be gotten rid of through revenge. There is happiness and forgiveness. The toxic level of your insatiable appetite to inflict pain on others is unbelievable. I know that we are not supposed to debate ourselves, but I will look for you and look you in the face and say, but why. Do you really have to do this?

Lastly, I wish to talk about my province, specifically Solwezi. The hon. Minister of Finance, as you reflect and refocus, look at the suffering that is being inflicted on mining towns and assist them. We are not asking for much or to develop above everybody else. All we are asking for is to give us sufficient funding to ameliorate the challenges that are brought about as a result of mining investments. People from my village used to take forty-minutes to walk into town. Today, they take half a day because the perimeter fence of the mine is ever expanding and they have to go round. One of them who tried to use a short cut was actually caught by the guards, beaten and killed. Is this the kind of investment we need? Reflection is what we need to do. As we come back, could we find a refocused and re-energised PF with a mandate to rule for the next five years and rule in a manner that we can see productivity outcomes?

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: Before I allow the Vice-President to wind up, I wish to announce that arrangements have been made regarding dinner this evening as follows:

1.dinner break will be from 1915 hours to 2015 hours. The House will resume sitting at exactly 2030 hours; 

2.hon. Members will have their dinner at Parliament Buildings in the restaurant and members of staff and ministry officials will have their dinner at the Members’ Motel; 

3.dinner for hon. Members, members of staff and ministry officials will be provided at the courtesy of the Office of the Speaker; and 

4.transport to and from Members’ Motel for staff and ministry officials who do not have their own vehicles will be available at the foyer by the main entrance to Parliament Buildings. I would like to advise hon. Members to be punctual and wish to request all the whips to ensure that the quorum is formed at 2030 hours.

Thank you.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I want to thank all the hon. Members who contributed to this debate. A robust debater beholds a robust multi-party democracy when you are here. The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, Mr Gary Nkombo, assigns me friends when I am in his district.

Laughter

The Vice-President: You have never heard of …

I would like to make a passing comment on the so-called waning popularity of the PF. In the recently-held elections, we not only won the Mufumbwe Parliamentary seat by a landslide, but also twelve out of the fourteen wards.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: One ward went to the MMD and the other to the UPND while twelve went to PF. This includes two in the Western Province, very close to the centre of traditional Government. The basic atmosphere, when I went there recently, was very relaxed and pro-Government. So, allegations that there is tension here and there are very unhelpful. The Opposition is also misleading itself if it thinks that the popularity of the PF is going to fall by their talking about army worms or some other natural phenomenon as if it were some kind of signal from the ancestors that they do not like the PF and are, therefore, sending an army of worms to liberate Zambia. 

Sir, the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central said that we had been remiss by not declaring it a disaster. It is a problem and we are addressing it the best way we know how, including involving those donors who are specialists in the area, as I mentioned earlier, today, which is the United Nations and, specifically, the WFP, FAO and the Red Locusts Control Agency (RLCA). These are all involved.  

Sir, we cannot plant the crop, weed it and harvest it for the farmers. We can only make the parameters in which they do the farming more convenient, and that is what we are doing. We are putting all the resources of the DMMU and the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, human and material, into this programme. So, it is very short-term, but urgent thing. It cannot be built up into a great army of events. We just have to be as helpful as we can in the very short window that we are faced with. We have to have the next crop up by Christmas or Boxing Day. Otherwise, the yield will be very poor. 

Sir, I hear what many people are saying regarding governance. The PF did not come to power on the platform of reversing multi-party democracy.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We exist only because we espoused multi-party democracy in Zambia. We are very conscious of that. If the people on your left cease to attend this House, it will be because they have lost their own seats, not because of any illegal slack of hand that would have restored a one-party State or everyone being locked up. Maybe, there can be improvements. Maybe, LAZ’s petition before the court might lead to some helpful improvements in the Public Order Act. However, I assure you that you are living and operating in a multi-party democracy. I am saying this as someone who was arrested, standing next to someone else who was arrested, another one was arrested over there, and we were all arrested, but we are not vengeful. That is not the character of the PF.

Hon. UPND Member: Will you wind up?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for ...

The Vice President: I am winding up.

Mr Speaker: Just a minute, your Honour.

Hon. Member, you cannot afford to do that. Let us be honourable. 

Continue, your Honour.

Laughter

The Vice-President: There has been some very loose release of ammunition in various directions by some of the speakers. The idea that the US$750 million has to be repaid in ten years is not correct. It will be rolled over. It is the interest that will be paid every ten years. That is how these things go.

Mr Speaker, we are headed for self-reliance, and the MMD, which got us into the so-called lower middle  income country status, is the one that had us more dependent on donor aid than we now are. We are reducing, coming down to 2 per cent of the GDP, and will be less than that next year. We all want to be independent of the donors, and that is the way we are moving, except that there are things over which it is very difficult to be totally independent. For example, Lusaka needs an urgent rehabilitation of its water and sanitation infrastructure, and someone has been generous enough to give us US$350 million to do it, we will accept, provided the conditions are such that we can fulfil them. So, I do not see what crimes we are committing here at all. 

Sir, I think that this has been a successful year and, this time next year, hopefully, will be more successful so that we will be able to boast of some few more seats that we would have won.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 94/51 – (Office of the President – Western Province – Provincial Accounting Unit – K1,931,444,195).

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1814 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the
Chair]

Vote 94/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 94/52 (Office of the President – Western Province – District Administration – K5,640,391,945).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(a)under 01: District Administration Unit, Programme 6001: General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,922,792,269 and the substitution therefor of K1,922,792,270; and

(b)under 01: District Administration Unit, Programme 6044: Development 
Planning and Monitoring, by the deletion of Programme Total K100,000,000 and the substitution therfor of K100,000,002. 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 94/52, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 94/54 – (Office of the President – Western Province – Maritime and Inland Waterways Department – K1,193,811,810).

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 6011, Activity 449 – Dredging of Canals – K1,000,000,000. Which canals are these?

The Minister for Western Province (Mr Mwaliteta): Mr Chairperson, let him ask the question again.

Hon. Members: Ah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you, please, repeat the question, Hon. Mufalali.

Mr Mufalali repeated the question.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, the provision under Programme 6011, Activity 449 is meant for paying wages to casual workers who are going to clear the canals. It is also meant for fuel and allowances for dredging the canals in order to improve water transport, irrigation farming and drinking water for cattle in the province.

Interruptions

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 6002, Activity 010 – Labour Day – K2,000,000. Why has the amount for this activity been reduced from K8,000,000, this year, to K2,000,000, next year? The reductions permeate all the activities for the Western Province.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to budgetary constraints.

Vote 94/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/95 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 95/40 – (Office of the President – Eastern Province – Community Development Department – K4,736,576,297)

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6003, Activity 063 – Capacity Building of Women Groups – Nyimba, Petauke, Katete, Chipata, Mambwe, Lundazi and Chadiza – K201,380,000. May I know why Vubwi is missing from the list of districts?

The Deputy Minister of Eastern Province (Mr Sichone): Mr Chairperson, this is entirely as a result of budgetary constraints.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Vote 95/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 95/41 – (Office of the President – Eastern Province – Youth Development Department – K738,863,779).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6003, Activity 007 – Provision of Survival Life Skills – Nil. May I know why there is no provision proposed for next year?

Mr Sichone: Mr Chairperson, this is also entirely as a result of budgetary constraints for year 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 95/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 95/52 – (Office of the President – Eastern Province – District Administration – K10,724,665,689).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 6002, Activity 059 – PDDC/DDCC Activities - Chadiza – K28,520,000 and Activity 133  – PDDC/DDCC – Chadiza  – K28,520,000. May I know the difference between the two Activities?

Mr Sichone: Mr Chairperson, Programme 6002, Activity 059 – PDDC/DDCC Activities - Chadiza  – K28,520,000, this amount is meant for holding and attending to PDDC/DDCC Activities.  Activity 133 – PDDC/DDCC – Chadiza – K28,520,000, this amount is required to meet the expenses for the PDDC and DDCC meetings.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: In short, if you wanted, you would have indicated just one item with that amount.

Mr Sichone: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: That is a nice way of doing things.

Laughter 

Vote 95/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/01 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Headquarters–K12,421,198,219).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K7,131,393,577 and the substitution therefor of K7,131,393,576.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K90,824,000. May I know the reason there is a reduction of almost 50 per cent in this activity.

The Deputy Minister for Luapula Province (Brigadier-General Kapaya): Mr Chairperson, this has been realigned to transport management.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 96/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/03 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Rural Roads Unit – K11,334,255,014).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,216,774,744 and the substitution therefor of K1,216,774,743.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 96/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
VOTE 96/16 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Forestry Department – K2,683,856,909).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,806,854,719 and the substitution therefor of K1,806,854,718.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6023, Activity 001– Blitz Patrols – K41,000,000, Activity 002 – Community Awareness Campaigns – K8,000,000, Activity 003 – Eviction of Squatters and Forestry Patrols – K30,000,000, Activity 004 – Forest License Inspections – K11,112,000, Activity 006 – Forestry Maintenance – K21,853,800, Activity 008 – Monitoring and Evaluation – K16,000,000 and Activity 018 – Protective Early Burning – K16,000,000. Why is it that the provisions for this year are exactly the same as those proposed for next year?

Brigadier-General Kapaya: Mr Chairperson, the allocation is to cater for logistics for the commemoration of World Environment Day. The increment is due to increased coverage.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: The question was why they are they the same. Maybe, you read a different one. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can you, please, repeat your question, Hon. Kazonga.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6023, Activity 001– Blitz Patrols – K41,000,000, Activity 002 – Community Awareness Campaigns – K8,000,000, Activity 003 – Eviction of Squatters and Forestry Patrols – K30,000,000, Activity 004 – Forest License Inspections – K11,112,000, Activity 006 – Forestry Maintenance – K21,853,800, Activity 008 – Monitoring and Evaluation – K16,000,000 and Activity 018 – Protective Early Burning – K16,000,000. Why is it that the provisions for this year are exactly the same as those proposed for next year?

Brigadier-General Kapaya: The scope of activity has remained the same.

Vote 96/16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/18 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Survey Department – K313,612,192).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K90,041,759 and the substitution therefor of K90,041,760.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 96/18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/19 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Water Affairs Department - K1,822,355,069).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K862,359,616 and the substitution therefor of K862,359,615.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/19, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/23 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Labour and Factories Department – K431,642,487).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K158,842,487 and substitution therefor of K158,842,486).

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/23, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/40 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Community Development Department – K3,372,810,600).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K2,702,729,286 and the substitution therefor of K2,702,729,287.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/40, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/41 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Youth Development Department – K685,681,946).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment: 

Under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K338,621,946 and the substitution therefor of K338,621,947.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/41, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/42 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Resettlement Department – K2,097,421,477).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K207,224,484 and the substitution therefor of K207,224,485.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/42, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/44 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Provincial Local Government Office – K593,696,299).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 600 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K278,772,693 and the substitution therefor of K278,772,694).

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/44, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/51 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province - Provincial Accounting Unit – K1,755,921,454).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K581,783,454 and the substitution therefor of K581,783,453.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/51, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/52     - (Office of the President – Luapula Province – District Administration – K3,054,656,074).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme: 6001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,362,959,205 and the substitution therefor of K1,362,959,208.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 96/52, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/03 − (Office of the President − North-Western Province − Rural Roads Department − K13,800,525,338).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6011, Activity 715 − Chikonkwelo-Kayombo Road − Nil. I noticed that K1,400,000,000 was allocated for this activity this year but unfortunately next year there are no funds that have been allocated for this road. Being from there, I know that this road has not been worked on. Could I know the reason why no money has been allocated to this project?

The Deputy Minister of North-Western Province (Mr Masumba): Mr Chairperson, Programme 6011, Activity 715 −Chikonkwelo-Kayombo Road − Nil, the activity has been phrased out as it had enough allocation for the identified scope of works planned to be carried out in the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification Programme 6011, Activity 715 −Chikonkwelo-Kayombo Road − Nil. I come from Chikonkwelo and if no activity has taken place how do they phrase out this particular activity when no works have been done. Are they saying that they are carrying forward this K1,400,000,000 to ensure that this particular road is rehabilitated with the funds for 2012 in 2013.

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, Programme 6011, Activity 715 −Chikonkwelo-Kayombo Road − Nil. I think, for 2012 it was already provided for but for 2013 it is not provided for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the issue is this year …

The Chairperson: Order!

I did not give you the Floor.

Mr Mwiimbu: Oh sorry Mr Chairperson, I thought you gave me the Floor.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate what Hon. Jack Mwiimbu is trying to bring forward and the fact is that this road has not been worked on so why are they discontinuing if this road has not been worked on? Can we have this road worked on?

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, what has happened is that the machinery has already been mobilised and the works are yet to commence.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 97/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1915 hours until 2030 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTES 
in the Chair]

Vote 97/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/16 − (Office of the President − North-Western Province − Forestry Department − K2,093,195,802).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson …

Brigadier General Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Brigadier General Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise this very important serious point of order. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs assured this House when he was answering the follow up questions regarding our female hon. Member of Parliament sharing a cell with male hon. Members of Parliament and he told this House that the females were in a different cell. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation when we have the evidence that actually what he told this House is far from being the truth. Is this Government in order to mislead this House and the nation when we have evidence with those who were there with the hon. Members of Parliament? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Order!

The difficulty we have is that we are rising this evening. Had it not been for that, I could have requested the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to confirm what he had told the House. That notwithstanding, since it is something that can be explained in due course, I believe the hon. Minister of Home Affairs when we next resume since it is …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: When we next resume sitting he can explain because we are rising this evening and when do you expect the hon. Minister to explain to us. The earliest he can do that is when we next meet because he may not be able to do so now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Therefore, when we next meet the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will address this matter because there is a charge that what he informed the House was not true. That is the best ruling I can make under the circumstances.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 6023, Activity 011 − Demonstration in Hive Making, Honey and Bee Processing − Nil.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please we need to move fast and we can only do that unless we listen.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6023, Activity 011 – Demonstrations in Hive Making, Honey and Bee Processing – Nil. I notice that this very important activity in the North Western Province, which is a honey-producing area, has been discontinued. May I know why? 

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been phased out due to the re-alignment of resources to Programme 601, Activity 03.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 97/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 97/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/18 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – Survey Department – K515,031,100).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6011, Activity 103 – Maintenance of Buildings and Plants – K1,455,100. What building and plant can be maintained using K1.4 million? 

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the allocation is to cater for the maintenance of buildings. The increase is to provide for increased costs for materials related to renovations of offices. 

I thank you, sir. 

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, my insinuation here is very clear. What can a meagre allocation of K1.4 million do in maintaining buildings? 

The Chairperson: Hon. Lufuma, last year’s allocation was K1 million. For 2013, the allocation is K1,455,000. There is, actually, an increase. However, it is not for me to answer. 

The hon. Minister may respond. 

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the money is adequate. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 97/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 97/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/24 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – Social Welfare Department – K945,506,423).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6041, Activity 005 – Support to Child and Aged Headed-Households – K6,030,000. How many children and the aged will be assisted from this meagre K6 million allocated to North-Western Province? 

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, this provision will have to wait until the Budget is approved. We cannot be categorical at this particular time. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, are you implying that, once the Budget is approved, you will be categorical? What do you mean by saying that it will be categorical later?

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the funds were adequate for this year and will still be adequate for 2013 and, at an appropriate time, we will categorise as the hon. Member wishes. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 97/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 97/25 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – Cultural Services Department – K663,915,326).

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III.  I see that there are no salaries provided for in 2013. Why is it so? 

Further, may I have clarification on Programme 6000, Activity 004 – Wages – K8,030,832. I see that K8 million has been provided for. Assuming that it is just one person, it means that his or her salary is around K600,000. What category of personnel this is and if this salary does not place them below the minimum wage, as prescribed by the PF Government. 

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the salary includes all remunerative allowances, such as transport and housing. The decrease is due to budgeting for filled positions only. 

Sir, the provision under Programme 6000, Activity 004, is for payment of wages. The salary includes all remunerative allowances, such as transport and housing. The decrease is due to budgeting for filled positions only. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have a clarification on Programme 6000, Activity 004 – Wages – K8,030,832. What number of workers will be catered for under this particular Vote? As indicated by Hon. Mulusa, it amounts to K600,000.00 per month for one person.

Mr Mwila: Which programme?

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the  for office orderlies.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 97/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/40 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – Community Development Department – K2,188,400,262)

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have a clarification on Programme 6001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. I have seen that, across the board, almost throughout the province, staff welfare has been eliminated; it is no longer there. May I know the reason and how the staff welfare will be taken care of?

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the allocation has been phased out due to a change in Government policy. Household and car loans will be accessed through the Civil Servants Bank.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mwila: Epo twayambila ukulanda!

Vote 97/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/42 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – Resettlement Department – K1,450,019,540)

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have a clarification on Programme 6011, Activity 280 – Construction of Health Post at Litoya Scheme – Nil. The project at Litoya is far from being completed, yet there is no allocation in next year’s Budget. Why? 

Mr Mwila: Akwasuka mwaiche!

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the construction works are expected to be completed from the 2012 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 97/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/46 - (Office of the President – North-Western Province – Physical Planning and Housing Department – K1,345,466,754)

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 6031: Town Planning and Development Control, by the deletion of Programme Total K467,929,890 and substitution therefor of K467,929,898.

Mr Mulusa indicated. 

The Chairperson: Order!

Are you debating the amendment, because the question is on the amendment?

Hon. Government Member: Workshop!

Amendment agreed to. Vote 97/46 amended accordingly.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have a clarification on Programme 6031, activities 005 – Squatter Compound Upgrading – Nil; 018 – Planning of Manyinga Sub-Centre – Nil; and 020 – Preparation of Development Plan for Ikelenge – Nil. Nothing has also been for these activities for next year, yet, due to the influx into the province of people looking for jobs, we have a serious problem on squatter compounds mushrooming. So, why is there no provision for those activities?

Mr Mwila: Kanshi umwaiche finshi amicita?

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been phased out because it will be budged for under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing Headquarters due to the huge amount of resources needed.

The Chairperson: Order!

Which activity are you referring to?

Mr Masumba: It is on the second question, Activity 018.

The Chairperson: Alright.

Mr Masumba: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: What about the third one, Activity 020?

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, for the sake of clarity, the activity has been phased out as it will be budgeted for under Ministry of Local Government and Housing Headquarters due to the huge amount of resources needed.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 97/46, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/49 − (Office of the President North-Western Province − Provincial Planning Unit − K706,410,648).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6010, Activity 002 − Establishing a Provincial Database Centre − K1,000,000. Last year there was K10,000,000 provided but, in 2013, only a meagre K1,000,000 has been allocated for establishing a provincial database centre. On Activity 012 − District Development Backstopping − K1,000,000, only K1,000,000 has been allocated again. I feel these are very small amounts for anything to be done. Could we have reasons such meagre amounts have been allocated. Maybe, it is better not even to allocate them.

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, Programme 6010, Activity 002 − Establishing a Provincial Database Centre − K1,000,000. The allocation is meant to cater for establishing a provincial database centre and the decrease is due to realigning of resources to Programme 6044, Activity 001. On Activity 012 − District Development Backstopping − K1,000,000. The allocation is meant for catering for expenses related to district development backstopping.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I have either left out one question or he has left out one clarification on Programme 6038, Activity 009 − Briefing Meetings with Provincial and Sector Planners − Nil. This is very important, but it has been discontinued. Could we have an explanation as to why.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been aligned with Programme 6044, Activity 001.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 97/49, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 97/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/52 − (Office of the President − North-Western Province − District Administration − K6,485,047,779).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 6001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K568,123,522 and the substitution therefor of K568,123,524.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 97/52, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Vote 97/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Vote 97/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 98/01 − (Office of the President Southern Province − Headquarters − K12,045,631,632).

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6001, Activity 900 − Settling in Allowance − Choma Administration − K219,639,417. I would like to find out whether, in the coming year, there will be movement of members of staff from Livingstone to Choma, considering that no construction has taken place in Choma?

The Deputy Minister of Southern Province (Ms Limata): Mr Chairperson, yes the money will be there …

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Ms Limata: … and some members of staff will be transferred from Livingstone to Choma.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6002, Activity 019 − Traditional Ceremonies − K50,000,000. In this year’s Budget, K120,000,000 was allocated but, for next year, it has been reduced to K50,000,000 only. Why is there this reduction?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, some of the traditional ceremonies were not held. So, we are going to deal with them in 2013. The money was not correct.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Lubezhi: … may I have clarification on Programme 6002, Activity 013 − Sporting Activity − K5,000,000. I have noted that you have reduced the allocation from K30,000,000 to K5,000,000. What kind of sporting activities are these which have gone down to K5,000,000? Secondly, Programme 6007, Activity 002 Activity 012 – Personnel-Related Arrears − K1,896,175,701 …

Mr Mwila: Nashako fyafula!

The Chairperson: Order!

It is not you to tell him, but me.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Why do you want to assume my role?

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Mwila you are disturbing!

Mr Chairperson: You are just slowing down the work.

You may continue.

Ms Lubezhi: … I want to find out how we have accrued these arrears. Thirdly, Programme 6011, Activity 036 − Construction of Health Posts − K50,000,000. How many health posts are these which will be constructed with K50,000,000? Then, Programme 6014, …

Hon. Government Members: Awe! Question!

Ms Lubezhi: … Activity 005 − Kabulamwanda Irrigation Scheme − K80,000,000, what is involved in this irrigation scheme at Kabulamwanda in my ward in Namwala Constituency? May I also have clarification on Programme 6030, Activity 003 − Twinning Southern Province with Quangzxi − K200,000,000. What is this programme?

May I also have clarification on Programme 6043, Activity 001 – Cleaning and Landscaping of the Province – K120,000,000. How is this Landscaping of the Province supposed to be done?

Ms Limata(Luampa): Mr Chairperson, we are now starting with the provincial headquarters in Choma. We want to clean and make sure that landscaping is there. On the first clarification, the money was taken to the Ministry of Youth and Sport. As for the other issue of the arrears for the civil servants, that was in the previous Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Chairperson: You see, if that is what you want us to do, we can stay here as long we want. If you put up seven questions and so on and so forth, she may not be able to answer. I would rather you ask one question at a time so that she can answer. Otherwise, we will not get anywhere. Hon. Lubezhi had asked about seven questions and the hon. Minister has answered about three. Now the problem here is that, maybe, she even got lost. That is why I advise that you ask one or two questions initially and then, if you want, you can ask more later instead of piling her with a lot of questions because that will not get us anywhere, and it is not in the interest of anybody.

Interruptions

Ms Lubezhi rose.

The Chairperson: Okay, you want to continue with your seven questions? Three have been answered. So, what is the other question?

Ms Lubezhi: Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 6011, Activity 036 – Construction of Health Post – K50,000,000. How many health posts are going to be constructed in K50,000,000. May I also have clarification on Programme 6014, Activity 005 – Kabulamwanda Irrigation Scheme – K80,000,000. What is this irrigation scheme?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, Programme 6011, Activity 036 – Construction of Health Post – K50,000,000, we are going to construct only one health post. Programme 6014, Activity 005 – Kabulamwanda Irrigation Scheme – K80,000,000, this provision is growing from year to year and it is intended to cater for costs such as fuel and allowances for the monitoring team that will be working on the projects in the province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson: Please, do not pile her with a lot of questions. Give her a question she can answer.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6011, Activity 578 – Infrastructure for the Provincial Headquarters – K100,000,000. Last year, there was a provision of K15,000,000,000 and this year, there is a provision of only K100,000,000. I am aware that part of last year’s allocation was diverted to the Rural Road Unit. With that in mind, what does the PF Government hope to achieve in this K100,000,000 that has been provided, given that on the ground in Choma, there is no work that has taken place in so far as infrastructure development for the provincial headquarters is concerned?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, this money is now under the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication Headquarters.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo(Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6030, Activity 003 – Twinning Southern Province with Quangxi –K200,000,000. In the 2012 Budget, we had K120,000,000 allocated for this activity. This year, we have K200,000,000. I would like to know what activities are involved in this twinning and whether Quangxi is a province in another country. If so, which country is it?

Secondly Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 6036, Activity 007 – Dam Stocking and Management – K250,000,000. What is involved in this activity? Finally, on the same programme, Activity 016 – Cattle Restocking – K1,000,000,000. May I know which …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: It appears we are not interested. You know, I want to make sure that we proceed orderly because now, it is like we are degenerating into something else. I want to give you as much time as possible to debate, but the way we are proceeding, I am sorry to say, is not the right way. If you people are prepared to stay here up to midnight, I can leave. 

Can you continue?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, we Tongas are pastoral people. At Activity 016 – Cattle Restocking – K100,000,000,000. I wish to know which districts are going to benefit from this activity of cattle restocking with the amount allocated and, please, Sir, do not go.

The Chairperson: I was just trying to pull your leg.

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, Activity 016 – Cattle Restocking – K100,000,000,000 will cover all the districts. 

Sir, Programme 6030, Activity 003 – Twinning Southern Province with Quangxi –K200,000,000, Quangxi is a province in China. The increase is as a result of more meetings to be held in the two provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: I will allow one more clarification then I will put the question.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6036, Activity 016 – Cattle Restocking – K100,000,000,000. I would like to find out which district will benefit from this facility and how many animals will be provided in each district?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, we are going to restock cattle in all the districts in the province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Boma!

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 98/02 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Zambia News and Information Service – K2,306,584,534). 

The Chairperson: Now I will only allow one question per person.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, it is not my intention to trouble my mother but I think it is important to ask this question. I am looking at page 2308, Programme 6066, Activity 001 – Video Camera & Accessories – K200,000,000. What is the justification for allocating K200 million to purchase one video camera and accessories?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, this allocation is for purchasing a camera for Zambia News and Information Service (ZANIS) and Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC).

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: I do not know what answer you expect from the hon. Minister. You wanted to know why there is this amount to purchase one camera and accessories. Maybe she meant to say that it is for one camera and several accessories.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: Anyway, hon. Minister, Hon. Mwale is not satisfied with your answer. Are we buying one camera and so many accessories?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, it is a set for ZANIS.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I am on page 2307, Programme 6002, Activity 019 – Traditional Ceremonies – K17,000,000. Going by what the PF Government had said that it will be non-committal to traditional ceremonies, what exactly will this amount be for?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, this money will go to ZANIS for covering traditional ceremonies.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Boma! Quality!

Vote 98/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Chishiba walked in.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 98/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/17 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Lands Departments – K836,727,970).

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

No amount of shouting will stop those who want to ask for clarifications from doing so. I think if you kept quiet, we will move faster than what we are doing.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I am on page 2316, Programme 6009, Activity 004 – GRZ Revenue Monitoring. Has this activity been discontinued since there is no allocation?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, we have not stopped the exercise of monitoring Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: You know hon. Minister, sometimes the answer must be focused. When you see that there is no money provided for a certain activity, you either say that you are continuing with money that was budgeted for in the previous year or that …

Ms Limata: Sorry, Sir. We are carrying out that exercise under Programme 6024, Activity 001 – Ground Rate Collection – K111,337,200, on the same page.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 98/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/19 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Water Affairs Department – K3,577,608,254).

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 2319, Programme 6032, Activity 702 – Rehabilitation of Gauging Stations – K116,550,000. Why should the rehabilitation of gauging stations be put under the water affairs department when there is a meteorological department?

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister answer the question if she has understood it?

Ms Limata:  Mr Chairperson, it is a new activity which will cater for the rehabilitation of all stations in the province.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 98/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

It is sabotage for somebody to come to the right and say no when you should be on the left. You better say no from your right side.

VOTE 98/23 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Labour and Factories Department – K1,252,291,000).

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6001 – General Administration – K338,280,000. I have noticed that the Livingstone Office is missing from the offices that have been tabulated under this programme. May I find out why Livingstone has been left out?

Ms Limata:  Mr Chairperson, the Livingstone office is moving to Choma.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, but there is a Labour Office in Livingstone.

The Chairperson: It is not for me to debate.

Ms Limata:  Mr Chairperson, the majority of the staff in Livingstone will move to Choma.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 98/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/24 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Social Welfare Department – K3,405,411,774).

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, on Page 2322 …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Ms Lubezhi: I am from Southern Province. May I have clarification on Programme 6018, Activity 023 – Sexual and Gender Violence – K39,303,112. What will they be doing with this money?

Ms Limata:  Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for raising this question. We are going to deal with this issue by advertising to the people.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 98/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/40 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Community Development Department – K4,537,202,418).

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6019 – Activity 023 – Coordination and Monitoring – K111,450,000 and Activity 024 – Distribution of Food Security Pack Input – K100,000,000. Why has the Ministry allocated co-ordination and monitoring more money than the actual product?

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity introduced in order to facilitate the distribution of food security pack in the district.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 98/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/55, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 99 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – K3,129,059,965,872).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance remains committed to the effective and efficient co-ordination of national planning, economic management, and transparent and accountable financial and economic resources mobilisation and management in order to foster national development and enhance the quality of life of the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance is implementing the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), which seeks to accelerate infrastructure development in order to unlock the economic potential of our country. The development of appropriate infrastructure will facilitate private-sector development, open rural areas to investment and improve access to markets.

Sir, the Government plans to finance scaled-up public investments during the SNDP with a mix of own resources, non-concessional borrowing and public-private partnerships to cater for the much-needed infrastructure development, notably, in the transport, energy and communication sectors. In support of this resolve and financing needs, the ministry will begin to implement strong debt-management measures in 2013 aimed at effectively controlling and utilising expenditures under Head 99 in order to maintain debt-sustainability. It is under this Head that Constitutional and Statutory expenditures are provided for in the Budget. The total expenditure of K3.08 trillion includes external and domestic debt servicing ...

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

We have stopped listening.

Mr Chikwanda: … for the year. Payments in respect of the medium-term pay reforms and contingencies, such as salaries and other unforeseen calamities, are estimated at K44.56 billion.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia’s policy on public debt management is anchored on the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy, which was approved by the Cabinet in 2009, whose overall objective is to raise adequate levels of financing on behalf of the Government at minimum cost and risk while pursuing strategies aimed at ensuring that national public debt is managed at sustainable levels over the medium to long term. In this respect, the Government will ensure that borrowing is kept within prudent levels and secured on best terms of utilisation and repayment.

Sir,, with Zambia’s graduation to lower middle income country status, the country’s ability to borrow from soft loan windows of key multi-lateral lending institutions would be limited. To this effect, the Government will ensure that loans contracted on commercial terms are used to finance projects with high economic rates of return capable of generating future cash flows to repay the loans in order to maintain debt sustainability.

Sir, the Government views debt management as a key component of micro-economic management that is necessary for overall economic stability and social development. In order to achieve effective debt management in the country, the Government is also focusing on enhancing co-ordination between debt management, fiscal and monitoring policies as well as building of institutional and operational capacities within institutions that deal with public debt.

Sir, in September, 2012, the Government successfully issued a US$750 million Sovereign Bond on the international capital market. The outcome of the inaugural bond issuance was overwhelming, with Zambia having the highest ever subscription and fetching one of the lowest price for a first issue for a sub-Saharan African country. The bond proceeds have been used to finance infrastructure projects identified and included in the 2012 and 2013 national budgets.

Mr Chairperson, as I mentioned in my Budget Speech, in October, 2012, the issuance of the bond will not only provide additional long-term development resources, but has also established a pricing benchmark for future bond issuance by both private and public sectors. It has also enhanced Zambia’s credibility as a favourable and safe investment destination.

Mr Chairperson, the Government’s debt management objectives in 2013 will focus on financing the Budget deficit at least cost and reasonable risk, maintaining debt sustainability and promoting debt market development in line with international best practices of debt management. In this regard, the Ministry of Finance will revise the debt management strategy to align it with changing economic conditions and circumstances in order to improve public debt management.

Mr Chairperson, in order to finance the growth-critical infrastructure, focus will be on concessional external borrowing. Non-concessional borrowing will only be used on projects with high economic and social returns across the country. Capacity in this regard will be built to enable us do cost-benefit analyses of particular projects. Projects appraisal skills training will be intensified to achieve this objective.

Mr Chairperson, as regards domestic borrowing, the Government will continue to use the domestic markets to raise funds at competitive interest rates and in line with our macro-economic objectives. Funds offered by commercial banks will only be used when they offer competitive interest rates.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to re-iterate that strengthening debt management and project appraisals will be key ingredients in our approach on the debt policy and strategy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I will very briefly talk about the debt issue in the country.

Mr Chairperson, we all remember that this country was in serious debt and the civil society, the church and citizens rose to the occasion. People like Mr Mucheleka and his colleagues ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … saved this country on this aspect. The donors heard the cries of the people that there was little fiscal space to provide services for our people and wrote off the debt. The infrastructure was bad, education was poor, and the health facilities were dilapidated. 

Mr Chairperson, this country has a population of mostly very young people. This can be either a blessing or a curse, depending on what you we decide to do as a country. The debt cancellation was really welcome, and I think that we must thank the donors for what they did. 

Sir, the objective of debt cancellation was to give us space to address the problems that had beset our country. A few years down the line, we have not seen significant changes in the infrastructure that we were meant to develop using the funds that were freed for our use when our debts were cancelled. Previously, most of the money in our Budget was squeezed towards debt servicing. Today, our infrastructure is not something to talk about despite our debts having been cancelled. 

Mr Kampyongo: Are you sure.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the town where the heckler comes from is in a very bad condition. Look at Lusaka. Harare, a town in a country which went through sanctions, is better than Lusaka. The hon. Minister of Finance must be strict so that this space we have been given by the good donors is used to address the challenges that we have identified. The donors should also have enhanced the debt cancellation. For instance, if we owed the British some money, they should have said that, in lieu of paying the debt back, the money freed should be used for a specific project in education so that the fiscal space we have been given is not abused. It is being used to finance a very greedy bureaucracy that Zambia has, which is sucking most of the money that would have been used to provide services to our people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister of Finance to take a second look at the Civil Service and trim it. It must be lean, efficient, effective, patriotic and well-paid. In its current form, the Civil Service cannot provide services efficiently, and you have enough evidence to show that, despite your pushing, nothing is happening. I was at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) a few days ago. There is literally no parking space. The institution is busy erecting buildings, but no one thought of expanding the parking space. How can such a big infrastructure not have parking space for visitors. There is no planning being done when implementing Government programmes because the Civil Service is bloated and has inertia. 

Sir, I want to tell the PF that it will be shocked that, after five years, to find itself still wondering why it removed the MMD from power. The problem is not about all the other things it accused the MMD of, but the failure of the Civil Service to deliver services. That is what needs to be addressed. There is nothing wrong with the civil servants. However, the Civil Service is too bloated and needs to be trimmed and its workers paid very well. 

The graduates who went to universities did not go there so that they could come and give their services for nothing. They must be paid well, and you can only do this if you have a very lean Civil Service that will be accountable. When you have done this, you will have the moral authority to fire them when they fail to deliver. You cannot fire a person whom you are not paying well. It is immoral to do so.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the Government must reform the Civil Service. The wage bill that you are saying is large is not the real issue.

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the chance to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member debating in order to say that we must trim the Civil Service when he is part of the people saying that the PF Government is not offering many jobs? 

I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Order!

Maybe, the hon. Minister will address that issue when he winds up his debate. You may continue, Hon. Hamududu.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, it is not the job of the Government to create jobs. It is the private sector that creates jobs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: The Government’s job is to provide a good environment and policy framework for job creation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, a Civil Service that is able to deliver services will make the private sector grow. 

Mr Chairperson, let me come back to the topic of debt. We need a law that will guide us in debt management, that is, acquisition and use of the money borrowed. All these years, we have been saying that we need a law that will help us to avoid sliding back into debt. I know that the current hon. Minister of Finance is very careful. He has explained that the money that has been borrowed will be used in areas that have high returns. However, Parliament must be involved and consulted in debt contraction because the debts will be paid by all Zambians. We, who represent the Zambian people in Parliament, must approve any debt. There is nothing wrong with borrowing. However, I think that it must be done in an accountable manner because, tomorrow, we may have a very careless hon. Minister of Finance who might borrow from right, left and centre and, before we realise it, we will fall back into the debt trap. We all know the effects of a huge debt.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of how we apply the money we borrow, we must agree on the areas that will give us higher returns on investing the money we borrow. I agree that it is good to invest the money in making roads. However, education must not be neglected. Educating our people is one of the greatest investments we can ever make. Currently, some of the money that has been borrowed will go to developing the universities that the President announced. However, doing this might not, really, address the skills shortage we have in this country. There is a need for the Ministry of Finance to insist that a clear plan to invest in education is put in place, rather than simply follow the President’s announcements on creating universities, as if university education is the greatest need in this country. This country has a shortage of artisans who can drive the economy. The investment in education must be preceded by research. 

Sir, currently, we have many graduates who need jobs, but we have not provided these jobs because the economy is not performing well. I want to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to channel this money to areas that have higher returns. Educating our people appropriately will help us produce a cadre of graduates that will create jobs and wealth. I think that the era of thinking that there will be companies that employ our people is gone. We want entrepreneurs who will create jobs and wealth, and our education must be tailored to doing that. Some of the money we have borrowed must address the real skills gap we have, not being used to simply open universities.

Hon. opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the final issue I want to talk about is that we need to keep in tune with the vision we have crafted for ourselves. The hon. Minister of Finance indicated that the SNDP will be financed. 

The main guiding document is the Vision 2030. I have said before, on the Floor of this House, that the Vision 2030 is a good document. We must be marching towards the Vision 2030 with its good parameters.

At the moment, I want to let the hon. Minister of Finance know that on the growth valuable part, we are already behind. According to the Vision 2030, from 2011 to 2015, the economy should be growing at 8 per cent and above. However, in the current projection, we are still at 7 per cent. So, we are already off-tune with the Vision 2030.

Mr Chairperson, we will only register real development if we stick to the plans. I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to commit himself to financing our development plans and, eventually, match the Vision 2030. A country without a clear vision will not develop because we will be moving through guess work.

Sir, yesterday, I was reading a book entitled, Why Africa is Poor, which says Africa is poor by choice. At the moment, with the high commodity prices, we have the fiscal space and goodwill to borrow, but we must apply this money appropriately. It must be within the framework of good planning. We should put a higher premium on planning and right prioritisation.

Mr Chairperson, what is happening now is that our hon. Ministers are failing to advise our President on these pronouncements that are being made. They need to tell him that, much as we need a lot of universities and districts, it must be done within the framework of planning. If we do not do that, some of this money that is being borrowed will go towards the development of districts and universities which is not appropriate.

Sir, I, therefore, would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to demand that we stick to developmental planning.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Hamududu: This must be given a high premium so that year after year, we register progress and report to this House how we are progressing, as a country, on different valuables that we have set in the Vision 2030 and the National Development Plan.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, it is clear that if we will not develop, it is the failure of leadership because we chose not to. The people in leadership should know that they carry a heavy responsibility, and so need to make right choices. At the moment, we have the space and money, and our minerals are doing well. For the next ten years, we will have a good outlook. We should apply our minds to planning than announcing thirty new districts in one year because a district is demand-driven. Already, K200 billion is going towards new districts. While we are still approving the Budget, ten more districts have been announced.  This will really make us not go anywhere.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, as Hon. Mulusa said, you are creating cost centres instead of jobs that are needed for our people. You are putting offices to employ more District Administrators. I want to say that there is a criteria to follow in order to open new districts. First of all, the community itself should see the need. If there is a filling station and shop, eventually, there will be need for an administration and that is when you can now move in, as a Government. These pronouncements of new districts will not work. For now, people are excited but, sooner or later, they will realise that this was a hoax.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I am about to write a book entitled Seeing the Hoax from Inside. I have seen a lot of issues in this Parliament under these three Presidents.

Sir, you cannot open a district where you have not analysed the population and economic activities. There must be valuables and minimum criteria for an area to qualify to be a district. Otherwise, you are creating cost centres. Eventually, you will push the hon. Minister of Finance to borrow money to maintain those districts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: At the rate you are moving, the new districts will surpass existing districts.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you address the Chair. You say, “at the rate they are moving.”

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the rate at which the Government is moving is dangerous. It is pushing us to the situation where the money that we are raising from taxes will not be enough to finance this expanded bloated Government. The more districts you will have, the more you are expanding the Government. Already, we have thirty districts and will need thirty District Administrators, District Agriculture Office, District Education Board Secretary etc. All these offices will be opened because those are the minimum criteria. Already, you are expanding the bureaucracy but, for the Civil Service to be effective, there is a need for a lean and effective Civil Service that is well paid. However, with the way you are expanding it, you will be unable to pay these civil servants a salary that is motivating enough for them to deliver and be patriotic to their country because they also have families.

So, I want to conclude by encouraging the hon. Minister to demand for serious planning and strict adherence to the development plan and also match the Vision 2030. If we do not do that, in five years, you will not have achieved anything apart from pronouncing new districts, universities, roads, etc. We should be organised and put money where it matters most.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the very last debate this year. I wish to thank the hon. Minister for his sober presentation of the state of affairs in terms of financial management.

Sir, one again, I stand up on a call for reflection and an appeal for all of us to hold hands and walk out of the miserable past of this year into the hopeful future of next year. My debate will be based on two points, which are the Budget and debt management.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Budget, I have gone through the Yellow Book page by page and line item by line item. Believe me, using my broad spectrum background, I have discovered that 40 per cent of the budgetary allocations in this Yellow Book can be saved.

Sir, we have budgeted for line items that we should not have budgeted for. For example, we have budgeted for so many hundreds of millions for policy formulation. I have seen the advertisements that go out when advertising for jobs and one of the requirements is that the officers that you recruit must have the capability to craft policies. 

Mr Chairperson, there are several civil servants with Masters Degrees in the Civil Service. At Masters Degree level, you should have been prepared to craft a policy. For us to spend hundreds of millions for crafting policies is shocking.

Sir, I have seen budgetary items such as pre-audit preparations being allocated billions of Kwacha. What for? Let us ask ourselves questions. There was a scandal at the Ministry of Health. It did not take the Auditor-General to discover that scandal. Those scandals happened over a number of years. However, the Auditor-General failed to detect them. It took somebody from outside there, a girlfriend or whoever, to squeal. That is when we noticed that there was a problem. Let us ask ourselves how that happened. How did we miss it? The reason is simple. We allocated funds to be stolen in this Yellow Book …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mulusa: … but we have just done so, again. We should all be ashamed. We are rubberstamp. We have failed to change a single number there which is wrong because of the arrogance of numbers. Whose interests are you serving? The PF Government looked forward to a time when you were going to craft your first Budget and you have just done so. It is a miserable output. 

Hon. UPND Member: Who bewitched them?

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people pay hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers a lot of money. They buy them two vehicles each. However, they have demonstrated that they are not even connected to their work. They are unable to answer simple questions. The Parliamentary Liaison Officers have to keep on sending notes for them to explain what a budgetary item is for. Where were you when these figures … 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of Order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. You have ruled that we are not supposed to debate ourselves. Is the hon. Member, who has also received a vehicle … 

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: … like everyone else, in order to continue making insinuations that we have been failing to answer questions? You have been guiding us on how to answer questions when we fail. Is he also in order to insinuate that we have passed a Budget with funds which are going to be stolen? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: You have adequately debated your point of order. However, I get discouraged when hon. Members do not address the Chair. We have a tendency of saying ‘through you’, but I do not want to be addressed in that manner. When you are talking to a particular side of the House through the Chair, all you need to say is ‘he or they do this and that’. Saying ‘through you’ is inviting them to respond. Let us follow the simple rule of addressing them through the Chair. 

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, before I was unnecessarily disturbed, I was asking where the hon. Ministers were at the time when these figures were being crafted and sent to the Ministry of Finance. Did they look at them?
 
Sir, this sad occurrence shows that the only time that the hon. Ministers read the ministerial statements or are going over the figures is actually when they are here in the House. What do they do in their ministries? Zambians are spending a lot of money to pay these ministers. Get connected to your work, hon. Ministers, get to understand the activities of your ministries … 

The Chairperson: Order!

You have diverted, again. You started well, but you have gone back to addressing them directly. Please, address the Chair.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, let them get connected to their work. Give back value for money. You must be ashamed that you are …

The Chairperson: Order!

You have gone back to addressing them directly.

Mr Mulusa: They must be ashamed that they can be paid money, but fail to answer questions when they come here. This country will not go forward with this kind of waste.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members of my right, I insisted that the hon. Member addresses the Chair. So, please, be silent while he is addressing the Chair.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, allow me to turn to debt management. We have entered a critical stage in our development where we are players in the dept capital market. This requires prudence for us to make savings, ensure that we stay relevant and enable ourselves to use the money effectively.

Mr Chairperson, I noticed, with sadness, that when we borrowed the UD$750 million, some statements, which were made by the Government, showed that we did not know what to do with this money before we borrowed it. While there are carrying costs attached, that money is not working and interest is stacking up. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance to come up with a ministerial statement where he will spell out the funding strategy for the following year so that we can provide input.

Sir, I saw, in the Budget, that there was no clear line item that showed that certain activities that are supposed to take place when you are participants in the capital market are provided for. For instance, after each important policy pronouncement such as the State of the Nation Address and the budgetary process, a team from the Ministry of Finance is supposed to go the capital markets on a non-deal road show, explain policies and reassure the markets that the confidence they have in us is valid.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to the rest of the Government to be very careful with the pronouncements they make. We are being rated, and rating agencies are very sensitive to policy inconsistencies and to the confusion that may be ensuing in the Ruling Party. We need to remember that these moneys are lent to us for ten, fifteen or twenty year-periods. They need to reassure the market that in ten years’ time, their policies that exist today will be obtaining then. They will look back ten or twenty years prior and this is where the MMD comes in. The MMD made it possible for us to have the over subscription that we had. I thank His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Sata, who clearly pointed out that they would not depart from the MMD policies. That is what made investors comfortable enough to lend us the money.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, for those hon. Members who are saying ‘question’, can you go to the bank and get a loan after working for one month? No, the bank will ask you for a three months’ statement. You will, therefore, have to wait for another two months before you can access that loan. When you are lending for ten years, people will look at your history for the past ten years. The MMD contributed to the success of that subscription and that is the reason we need to hold hands and work together as a nation. We do not need to politicise where politics are not necessary.

Sir, allow me to focus on the issue of the Civil Service. We need to ask ourselves some hard questions. For instance, we buy two vehicles for a Permanent Secretary, with a combined total of almost K1 billion, with other incentives like fuel and a lot of other things. There is a mismatch between how much the Government spends on Civil Servants and what the civil servants end up with as disposable income. We can have a win-win situation if we were to monitor all the incentives that we give a civil servant. I did simple calculations and found out that we most probably spend K120 million on a civil servant per month over a period of three years. 

Sir, why not pay that civil servant K70 million and save K50 million. Allow them to approach the banks on their own and buy their car of choice. There are many countries that do not provide vehicles for Permanent Secretaries and those below them in the hierarchy. If we did that, we would be able to assist grow the asset-based finance for our financial sector. We are also going to assist civil servants to invest appropriately.  

   In short, we are going empower them to become entrepreneurs. We are so presumptuous. Who tells you that every civil servant wants to drive a Prado? Others can do with the corolla and serve the money. We need to think outside the box and depart from these activities that were probably prescribed to us by the colonial masters. We have been an independent state for a long time. That is just one example. You can do a lot of servings and at the same time, put more money that you promised into people’s pockets. There is nothing that you have changed at all. The financial sector needs developing. 

Mr Chairperson, we need to see how we can grow the domestic bond market. We also need to see how we can create liquidity for this same bond that we have issued through creating a secondary market. In five years time, because of the projects to which we have applied this funding, my advice is what the Vice-President said that we rollover that debt but I would like you swap it with a longer dated instrument. That way, we are going to create liquidity, grow our bond market and also our councils that are doing well. We need to create a bond market for them. We need to create a bond market for our parastatals as well. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I would like to thank you, and the hon. Minister of Finance for a good work.

The Chairperson: I can see the hon. Minister of Finance indicating. I think it is only fair that he winds up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I thank the House for supporting the Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure. We will take admonitions and the counsel offered by those hon. Members of Parliament who have been on the Floor because we will assume that the advice was offered in extremely good faith. I think sometimes, hon. Members have a tendency to exaggerate things. Some hon. Members also reveal some exaggerated egos and the propensity to star in their own soap operas. 

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, hon. Member for Bweengwa, your concerns about avoiding being over indebted are very genuine and very legitimate. We have gone through that experience when we had to be bailed out by the international donor community. It is also a credit to Zambia that we are able to exercise discipline as a country. In the process, the Zambian people incurred enormous sacrifice by good arrangements with the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank and the Bretton Woods Institutions. We earned credits and it was an ingenious arrangement. It is like some creative accounting. We earned some credits and then we were paid for our indebtedness. 

Sir, at that point, our external debt was above 100 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Since then, things have improved a bit. The GDP has grown a bit and as of now, I think our borrowing externally is less than 15 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product, which is computed using the straightforward dollar exchange rates. Our GDP, of course would assume a different proportion if you use the different method and if you use what they call the purchasing power parity, which of course, takes into account what we are able to purchase from your meager kwacha. For instance, if the cost of a hair cut in New York may be US$5 and the cost of a hair cut in Zambia may be 50 cents, if you use that method, you will find that may be our Gross Domestic Product is a lot bigger because we are not able to quantify the informal sector. It is just likely that the informal sector is much larger than the formal sector.

Sir, all the same, that does not call for euphoria and for recklessness to borrow beyond what you are able to sustain. Therefore, our borrowing is also controlled because it is governed by the laws of this country and also the Government, which comes to the House to approve. I do not think that it is a question of the prudence of whosoever is the hon. Minister of Finance to have an arbitrariness Government. I think it is a collective wisdom and our system of checks and balances. All we have been doing in this Budget session is to try to keep checks on the possible excesses of the executive. Our borrowing will be governed by Parliament and by what the laws stipulate. We cannot borrow beyond what we can reasonably sustain. 

Sir, investment in education is the most logical thing for any country in the world that wants to develop. Education is the only way societies, nations and countries increase the productive capacities of their people. We have not financed education from borrowed money. We are financing from our internal resources. What we are borrowing externally, we are putting it into growth areas. What we have borrowed through the sovereign bond with the sanction of Parliament, 30 per cent of it has been put in the power sector where there will be quiet a quick return. Soon in a year or two, we will have more that the power we need and then we will go for exports. As I said earlier on, electricity exports will be a very smart form of export because you do not need railway lines and roads to carry your electricity exports like you have to do with copper and other agricultural commodities. You are also using perpetual renewable resource in the form of water, a very environmentally friendly form of power and then, of course, the security arrangements relating to imports or exports to obtain the electricity exports because even the most ingenious of us here will find it very difficult to steal the power from the transmission lines. 

Sir, therefore, we are putting money in those areas. We also put substantial amount of money in revamping our railway system because first of all, we want to relieve our roads which have been pounded at a rate which will make it unsustainable for the country to maintain them. So, we want you to revamp the railway so that things can be moved by railway and therefore, reduce the congestion of heavy vehicles on our roads. This will also spare our roads the ordeal of being pounded by these trucks. We have also put some of the money in the road sector. The US$145 million from the bond we raised was an account of the so-called Formula 1, which our predecessors started. I want to once again, repeat that Parliament is responsible. I am sure that you will make it difficult or impossible for Government to go beyond the permissible limits to commit the country and to lumber posterity with some sustainable debts.

Mr Chairperson, let me now just speak about districts, Hon. Hamududu, you misdirect yourself a lot over districts.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Districts have huge developmental aspects. They will be development centres and will engender development. They will also enhance service delivery to our people because the distances in our country are very large. The other time I was teasing the hon. Member for Kalomo Central Constituency who of course does not realise that Kalomo is about one and a half times bigger than Burundi. Therefore, districts such as Kasempa and Mpika which is forty-one thousand square kilometres, that is one district bigger than The Netherlands, are very large. The distances are very large and we need to create more districts. I would implore the President to create as many districts as possible and then we would look around for finances.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: If we want development and service delivery to the people we therefore need more districts. There is no need for people to travel 200km just to go and resolve their problems at district centres. This country is very large. If you are saying that perhaps we should be a bit more systematic indeed that is another point but there is nothing wrong with the President creating districts. He should in fact create more districts and of course we will not immediately find the resources to develop them but over time we will develop these new districts without neglecting the old districts.

Sir, the problem we have in Zambia is that our economy is very small and we need to grow it with higher and double digit growth rates. We can do it but we lambaste the civil servants as being unproductive. The indolence and irresponsibility that this country has is so generalised and we try to institutionalise it by taking about the freedoms. Of course, the freedoms are very lavish but there is no match between the freedoms that we enjoy on this country and the responsibilities. We have a huge responsibility deficit and they keep on growing. Therefore, while we call for freedoms which are a good thing, as leaders of our country let us also urgently preach about the aspect of responsibility. People in this country just do not have responsibility.

I heard something from the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, which is a statistic which is very mind boggling that a Chinese can lay 500 bricks in a day, a Zimbabwean 300 bricks while a Zambian 90 bricks. This is how indolence there is in this country. Our political system is going to glorify our people and all the time we really do not try to tell them that for every right they have there is a corresponding obligation, duty and responsibility to the country. This is a problem and a cultural trap. There is so much indolence and irresponsibility in this country.

Mr Chairperson, somebody then talks about things which do not even exist. Hon. Mulusa there is no Permanent Secretary who has two vehicles. We parliamentarians and hon. Ministers have vehicles and when you talk about our lavish conditions of service, you will discover that what we are paid as Ministers and Members of Parliament is just the same as what some of the office orderlies in Government related institutions in this country are paid.

Therefore, I think that the plight of leaders in this country is really miserable and I feel pity for the leaders. More so since I have subsidised means and I look at the plight of my other fellow leaders and it leaves much to be desired. For those of you with rural constituencies, there is a perception from the people that you earn a lot of money but that is not the case. In relation to other parliamentarians in the Southern African Region, the wages are scandalously low. Even in the context of Zambians, I have said, there are Government institutions where an hon. Member of Parliament has to work for ten to eleven months to earn the monthly salary of some of the executives of our public institutions.

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: So, when we want to play to galleries, please let us be restrained. Hon. Mulusa, you are an extremely intelligent person and you can make your points without those excesses.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, let me thank all the hon. Members that spoke and the Government will take into consideration your concerns, worries, anxieties and we shall try to borrow responsibly. We will again go to the market and borrow because the resources that we have put up through this Budget are very small. There will be need to borrow but we shall borrow very responsibly. 

For all the fuss we made about all these amendments I moved, like in the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication I had to stand about forty times to make the amendments but all these amendments we have made all amount to different things. When we do the appropriations, you will see that the difference in all the totals is only K2. It is just that once hon. Members of Parliament with extremely exaggerated egos sort of get caught up and hypnotised in their own misconceptions, it becomes a matter of ego. It is just a question of moving the decimals. My learned mulamu Dr. Kazongo who is very eloquent could not even take modest advice. I tried to reach him and he was very angry when we started talking about it but there was no need for the fuss and it was just a matter of moving the decimals and the only difference in the overall figure will only be K2. However, we spent a lot a time and almost went to the extent of wanting to spill blood and it was very frightening.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson, let me not be uncharitable and mean. Let me once again thank my colleagues for supporting this Budget, including those who preferred to remain silent in their seats but overwhelmingly supported me.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 99/04 − (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure − Contingency − K89,588,212,44). 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01 Contingency Unit, Programme: 3089 Contingency, by the deletion of Programme Total K89,588,212,044 and the substitution therefor of K44,588,212,044.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 99/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure (Including Capital and Statutory Expenditure) for the year 1st January, 2013 to 31st December, 2013, were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments.

Report adopted and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of Supply. 

_________

BILL

FIRST READING

The following Bill was read the first time:

The Appropriation Bill, 2012

Second Reading, now.

__________

SECOND READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2012

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, the Bill before the House is a culmination of the task that we started in the Committee of Supply. I wish to take this opportunity to express my profound gratitude to you for the judicious manner in which you have guided the deliberations of the House. I also wish to tender my appreciation to Mr Deputy Speaker and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House for guiding the processes of the House with flawless skills and attention to detail. 

Mr Speaker, allow me to commend the contributions made by the Leader of Government Business, His Honour the Vice-President, for ensuring that the House was always adequately organised for business. I would also like to pay tribute to my honourable colleagues for their invaluable contributions and suggestions through the various Committees and as individuals. These have been noted and, where possible, the Government will incorporate and implement them as part of the wider development agenda. 

Mr Speaker, I am indebted to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the assistance rendered during the debates, and for their unfailing guidance. 

Lastly, but not least, I wish to take this opportunity to thank our co-operating partners for their unwavering support to our development agenda. Sir, the resources from co-operating partners that are channelled through the Budget are a clear indication of the faith that our co-operating partners have in the Government’s development objectives and agenda. The co-operating partners have been our most reliable allies in our endeavours to reduce poverty and build infrastructure for sustainable economic development and take-off. 

Sir, as this House finishes its business of approving the 2013 Budget tonight, one major task ahead of us is the implementation and execution of the Budget so that we can realise inclusive growth and social justice. The Government has embarked on bold and relentless steps to remove various hindrances to accelerated and inclusive growth. 

Sir, it is against this background that my ministry will make greater efforts to ensure that financial resources are mobilised and released in good time for the implementation of programmes approved by this august House. 
Mr Speaker, as part of our efforts to re-orient the Budget towards increasingly enhanced capital, the Government has increased allocations in a wide scope of sectors. The objective is to significantly transform Zambia’s economy by focusing on sectors with high employment-creation potential in direct response to high unemployment, low incomes and high poverty levels amongst our people. 

Mr Speaker, the main focus of the expenditure policy in 2013 will be, among others, to:

(a)promote the diversification of the agricultural sector;

(b)invest more in infrastructure;    

(c)streamline licensing processes in the tourism sector;

(d)promote and facilitate local value addition by putting in place appropriate industrial infrastructure for small and medium enterprises; 

(e)revamp our rail network and invest more in the road infrastructure;

(f)partner with the private sector in order to increase installed generation capacity;

(g)improve the transmission and distribution infrastructure, and expand rural access to electricity; and 

(h)improve the quality of life of our people by putting more resources in education, health, housing, and water and sanitation.

Mr Speaker, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), when properly used, is a fast-track to take development to the people. The seemingly inadequate allocation is merely a reflection of the glaring resource gap we have. However, as a listening Government, we have heard the suggestion from the hon. Members of Parliament and have made modest adjustments within the 2013 Budget so as to accommodate the suggestions put forward and in the spirit of give and take.

One of the most significant areas in budget implementation is the utilisation of funds by implementing agencies. It is in this area that hon. Members of Parliament and all Zambians are being called upon to continue with their noble and civil duty of monitoring the execution of the budget. Dutiful and vigilant hon. Members of Parliament and the public at large can help the Government in ensuring that lapses and slippages in implementation are minimised. 

Lastly, Sir, I wish to thank, once more, my honourable colleagues for their contribution to the debate on the Motion of Supply, which I laid before the House on Friday, 12th October, 2012, and for their support. I am also grateful to your Committee for its thorough report, and for bringing out a number of issues that we have taken note of. This Government will consider a number of those issues in future budgets.

Mr Speaker, it has been an uphill task to enlist unanimous support for the Budget from this august House. Alert hon. Members of Parliament have scrutinised every detail and, in the process, provided the necessary checks on the Executive. This is their inescapable duty and responsibility. It augers well for democracy and it is a basic tenet of good governance.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: The outcome is salutary. Our unit of purpose in diversity is enhanced, not weakened. Unity is not unanimous with uniformity. 

Sir, I rest my case here with profound thanks to you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.

Mr Kabimba: It is supposed to be read a second time, but you said third time.
Hon. Members: Wind up debate!

Mr Chikwanda: I am very sorry, Mr Speaker. I went ahead of myself.

Sir, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee, today.

____________

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2012

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment.

The Appropriation Bill, 2012.

Third Reading, today.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Appropriation Bill, 2012.

____________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

____________

The House adjourned accordingly at 2254 hours on Wednesday, 12th December, 2012, sine die.

__________