Debates- Wednesday, 19th March, 2008

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Wednesday, 19th March, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






209. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minster of Health:

(a) when Chazanga Clinic in Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency would be extended to accommodate a maternity wing; and

(b) when nurses would be posted to Chipata, Ng’ombe, Chazanga and Mandevu Clinics in Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency in order to improve health delivery.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Ministry of Health is aware that Chazanga Health Centre has no maternity ward. The health centre is serviced by Matero Referral Centre and Chipata Health Centre where there is high population and high number of deliveries whilst Chazanga has a low population. As such, the construction of the maternity ward is in the Capital Plan, but has not been set as an immediate priority by the Ministry of Health.

Sir, as regards part (b), I would like to inform the House that a total of twenty-six nurses were posted to Lusaka District. Chipata Clinic was allocated two nurses, Ng’ombe Clinic with three nurses, Mandevu Clinic was allocated four nurses and Chazanga clinic was allocated two nurses.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, this question comes about due to the fact that Mandevu is the biggest constituency in this country with a population of 300,000 people. The clinics there are not enough. In Chazanga, a foundation for a maternity wing was dug two years ago. I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister is aware of this and if he is, when is this foundation going to be completed.

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Sir, we are aware of the plans to have a maternity wing at the clinic, but as has been stated, we have this in our capital plan for infrastructure development and when Chazanga’s turn comes, definitely, we will do it.

Mr Speaker, let me add that the shortages that we are seeing could have been worse had it been not for investment in infrastructure development in the health sector.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Minister whether he would consider released to hon. Members the Strategic Infrastructure Development  Plan of the Ministry of Health in line with the Fifth National Development Plan.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, that has already been done, it is just a matter of releasing that to hon. Members of Parliament.

 I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, can I find out from the hon. Minister when he is going to send clinical officers to rural health centres in my constituency where there are no clinical officers as this matter has been reported to his office before.

Mr Speaker: Order! The follow up question is unrelated, but the hon. Minister may consider giving a bonus answer.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I agree that many times, we have discussed that problem in Luapula Parliamentary Constituency and the problem hinges on the shortage of trained health workers which affects the whole country. What we are doing now since it takes a long time to train skilled health workers, be it enrolled nurses, mid wives or clinical officers, is to consider undertaking outreach programmes so that we can provide the services required.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.


210. Mr Lubinda (Kabwata) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development what the cost of maintaining and sponsoring the Zambia National Soccer Team was from 2004 to 2007, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the total cost of maintaining and sponsoring the Senior Zambia National Soccer Team from 2004 to 2007 was K5,377,968,194.00 broken down as follows:

 Year         Amount (K)

2004       1,677,108,151.00;

2005       1,462,102,780.00;

2006       1,276,156,483.00; and
2007          962,600,780.00.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform this House where the difference between the allocations by this House and the actual cost to FAZ comes from. I also would like to know how they were meeting the difference. For example, in 2007 K480 million was authorised but the total that was spent was K962 million. Where does this shortfall come from and how does it come in without affecting the contingency vote of the budget?

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Mr Speaker, the K480 million the hon. Member is referring to was a grant given to FAZ for administrative costs and whenever there are extra expenses, we do variations to meet the costs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: From where?

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister assure us that there is not going to be corruption in the FAZ forth coming elections because we understand that a lot of money is exchanging hands.


Mr Speaker: Order! Although the question is unrelated, and since the House is a soccer House, I will allow the hon. Minister to answer that question.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, there are rules of elections in FAZ. Sir, if the people who are contesting the elections prove that somebody is corrupting others, they are free to appeal and challenge that person.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, in his reply the hon. Minister mentioned that the money allocated was as a result of variations, can he clarify to this House and the nation how that variation was done and where that money came from?

Mr Lubinda: Very good!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, yesterday this House approved about K60 billion for my Ministry and so, when it comes to variations, it will be up to the officials to look at which votes and activities are not active and draw from them. If the hon. Member wants to have more details, I do not have the actual details on which votes were varied. The procedure is that if you have insufficient funds, you can do some variations within the budget.

I thank you, Sir.


211. Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning whether there was a difference between misappropriation of public funds and plundering of public funds.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, as the House is aware, public funds are only available for expenditure when authorised or appropriated by this House to Heads of Expenditure under various programmes and activities. Sir, misappropriation of funds is associated with the application of the funds for purposes other than those for which the funds were appropriated.

Sir, this is mainly attributed to a situation where individuals or a group of individuals misuses, defrauds or steal for private use, public resources irrespective of the amounts.
Mr Speaker, in case of plunder of public resources, although the evil committed also relates to abuse of public resources, the term is usually used to describe the high degree of misuse, fraud or theft which results into huge resources being involved.

Sir, plunder in this case, literally means looting or ransacking of public funds.

In summary, I would like to state that in Government circles the term misappropriation of public funds as earlier alluded to is used to mean that funds authorised or appropriated by this House have been abused and used for other purposes. However, it is common for the general public to describe any misuse which is considered to be huge or large or of a higher degree in nature as plunder.

Mr Speaker, therefore, it becomes a matter of choice of words in deciding which word to use, whether misappropriation or plunder of public resources.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members indicated to speak.

Mr Speaker: Order! Could you take your seats please?

I just want to remind you again that the public electronic address system we are using is extremely sensitive. Whispers beyond a certain level of decibel are heard around the Chamber, such that the rest of the hon. Members may be unable to hear the replies that are being given in the Chamber. I am appealing to you again that if you have to consult, which I do not encourage, lower your voices. Consult with the next person very quietly.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister that plundering and misappropriation means the same - stealing. Why is it that plundering is used for political victimisation, especially for those in Dr Chibula’s Government hence …

Mr Speaker: Order! You cannot debate that matter here.


Mr Speaker: It is clearly before the courts of law.


Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the Office of the Auditor-General audits government books every year and queries have been raised. I want to find out from the hon. Minister when he is going to inform this nation about the officers who have misappropriated funds.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for that very important question. Sir, in this country, everyday apart from weekends, the courts of law are in session. We take cases of fraud, plunder or misappropriation to the courts of law. As we are seated here, there could be one officer cited in the Auditor-General’s report, appearing before a magistrate court in Kasama. This is an ordinary operation for the law enforcement officers in Government, therefore, it will not be possible for me to report to this House all those appearing in court in Kasama today. When the House adjourns next week, if hon. D. Mwila cares, he must come with me to the magistrate courts for two or three days, since my office is next to the courts, and see how civil servants …

Mr D. Mwila: I will come!

Mr Magande: … who misappropriate public funds appear before the courts of law. That action is being taken.

Three weeks ago, I reported to this House that we had five civil servants, who have been imprisoned only this year and we have forty-nine appearing in the courts of law and some of those are the ones who were mentioned in the report by the Auditor-General. So, for us taking to court the plunderers, the thieves and anybody else is a normal operation under this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: This is because we want to give notice that public funds are for public use and not for personal use.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer by the hon. Minister, I would like him to clarify why controlling officers who have been cited in the Auditor-General’s report, especially at Permanent Secretary level, have not been taken to court and I am wondering whether that is justice. May he clarify why this is so?

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, the question raised by the hon. Member is very important. We have reported to this House that controlling officers are in various categories. Mr Speaker, if my memory serves me right, we are aware of a Permanent Secretary from the Ministry of Health who appeared in the courts of law and that case has been disposed of. As Government, we do not look at the rank of the officer but at the offence committed. If the hon. Member has some names in the Auditor-General’s Report who he thinks are being shielded by somebody, I would like him to bring the matter to the law enforcement officers so that those officers are dealt with.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning inform this House, how many Government officers from missions abroad have appeared before the Task Force or courts of law for misappropriation of public funds.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Mfuwe for that very important question. Clearly, I do not have the answer now, but if he wants to get those details, let him raise a formal question and we will be able to do that as long as it is clear that he means Zambian missions abroad. So, he better be very clear in his statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Notice of Motion.

Mr Kambwili stood to ask a question.


Mr Speaker: Order! May you resume your seat?


Mr Speaker: I did not see you in time before I said “Notice of Motion” because of the Elephant Task here which is blocking your eye.





The C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointments of Hon. Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima and Mr Albert Mark Wood to serve as Deputy Chief Justice and Puisne Judge, respectively, laid on the table of the House on 18th March 2008.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Reverend Nyirongo (Bwacha): I second the motion, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Mr Speaker, the appointment of hon. Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima was made pursuant to the provisions of article 93, Clause 1 of the Constitution which states:

“The Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice shall subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President.”

Sir, the appointment of Mr Albert Mark Wood was made pursuant to the provisions of Article 95, Clause 1 of the Constitution of Zambia which states and I quote.

“The puisne judges shall, subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President on the advice of the Judicial Service Commission”.

The Constitution further provides under Article 97 (1) that:

“subject to Clause 2 a person shall not be qualified for appointment as a judge of the Supreme Court, a Puisne Judge or Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the Industrial Relations Court unless:

(a) He holds or has held high Judicial office; or

(b) he holds one of the specified qualifications and has held one or other of the following qualifications.

(i) In the case of a Supreme Court Judge, for a total period of not less than 15 years; or

(ii) in the case of a Puisne Judge, the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Industrial Relations Court for a total period of not less than 10 years.”

Mr Speaker, your committee kept sight of the fact that the position of Deputy Chief Justice plays a critical role in the operations of the Judiciary. In this light, a person holding this position should not only be competent, but should also be a person of integrity and committed to the nation.

Further, your committee view the High Court as a key institution which is expected to enhance good governance, observance of the rule of law and enjoyment of Human Rights by all Zambians. Therefore, there is need for persons serving on the High Court Bench to be capable and upright.

In view of the foregoing, your committee, in scrutinising these appointments, took into account the need for the candidates to have the highest levels of competence, eminence, soundness of character, integrity, efficiency, diligence and total commitment to the people of Zambia.

They assessed the suitability of the two nominees with utmost care by scrutinising their Curriculum Vitae and all information submitted to them by the State Investigative Agencies and relevant professional bodies in detail. In terms of Constitutional requirements, your committee analysed the requirements for appointment to these offices as contained in Articles 93 to 97 of the Constitution which generally require professionals of good standing to be appointed to such high offices in the Judiciary.

Mr Speaker, your committee after due and thorough evaluation of the evidence presented to them by witnesses and the appointing authority and their subsequent interviews with the nominees, find that the nominees are suitably qualified to be ratified for appointment as Deputy Chief Justice and Puisne Judge, respectively.

Your committee observe that the nominees’ professions and occupations have exposed them to a wide variety of litigation and other valuable experience which will enable them to contribute positively to the positions they are being appointed to. The nominees also have personal attributes which have given confidence to your committee that they will be able to perform their duties in these important public positions with diligence and commitment.

Your committee note, in relation to the nominee for the position of Deputy Chief Justice, that while seniority is and should be an important factor in such appointments, there are other equally critical factors such as competence and age. They also note that it is not novel in the Judiciary for relatively junior officers to supersede their seniors in such appointments, as evidenced by previous appointments to the position of Deputy Chief Justice.

Your committee further observe that Hon. Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima has gained considerable experience during the period she has served as a Judge of the Supreme Court. Her elevation to the position of Deputy Chief Justice is, therefore, timely. Additionally, the appointment of Madam Justice Mambilima is welcome because it will help enhance representation of the female gender in the higher echelons of decision-making in our nation.

Sir, in view of the foregoing, your committee strongly recommend that the House do ratify the appointment of Hon. Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima and Mr Albert Mark Wood to serve as Deputy Chief Justice and Puisne Judge, respectively.

In conclusion, allow me to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered during the deliberations. Your committee wishes to place on record their gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing them to serve on this very important Select Committee. Your Committee also thanks the State security and investigative agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholder institutions as well as the nominees themselves for the oral and written submissions which assisted your committee in their work.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Reverend Nyirongo: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the motion before the house, allow me first of all to thank the mover for the able manner in which he guided your committee and for presenting the motion concisely.  Mr Speaker,  I shall also strive to be brief.

Sir, your committee interacted with some professional bodies and stakeholder institutions during their deliberations.  These included the Judicial Service Commission, the Law Association of Zambia and Transparency International Zambia.  This interaction gave your committee an opportunity to understand and appreciate the professional and career progression of the nominees, as well as scrutinise their public standing in terms of integrity.

Your committee were informed that some stakeholder institutions had conducted a search at the University of Zambia in a bid to verify the academic qualifications of the two nominees.  The search confirmed that both nominees hold degrees in law and have post graduate qualifications in law obtained locally and abroad.

In terms of professional experience, your committee established that Hon. Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima was called to the bar in 1977, which meant that she had been at the bar for thirty-one years and that she had been on the bench since 1985 when she was first appointed Commissioner of the High Court.

Sir, as regards the fact that Hon. Madam Justice Mambilima was not the most senior judge on the Supreme Court Bench, the cardinal point to note is that the appointment was for professional work, in which case your committee felt that the nominee was capable of handling her work competently.  They were also comforted by the fact that her peers and referees recognised her intellectual and legal capacity to serve in the position of Deputy Chief Justice.

Sir, as regards Mr Albert Mark Wood, your committee noted that he had had a legal career that spanned more than the required ten years of service for one to be considered for appointment as Puisne Judge.  His career started from 1984, which meant that he had practiced law for over twenty-three years.  For most of these years, the nominee had done legal work and that gave him the requisite experience for such an appointment.

Sir, it is not a secret that Mr Wood had turned down a similar appointment in 2002, but he informed your Committee that he had important personal matters which he needed to attend to at that time before he could offer himself for such a serious national assignment.  It was clear from this interaction that the nominee acquitted himself well as a frank, honest and open-minded person who stood firm on issues of integrity.

Mr Speaker, in the light of the foregoing it is my considered view that we should support the two nominees appointments to enhance the values of integrity and professionalism in the Judiciary, especially, with regard to gender.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for catching your eye despite the Elephant Task.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I wish to support the appointment of the two nominees to their respective positions. In doing so, I want to make some observations and comments which the committee did not capture.

Mr Speaker, to begin with, the committee is one of integrity but I wish to state that when dealing with issues of the Judiciary, lawyers should not be part of these committees because these lawyers appear before the same judges. It puts them in a very awkward situation to scrutinise judges whom they are going to appear before.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, secondly, I want to say that despite the fact that I support the appointment of Mrs Irene Chirwa Mambilima, I feel the timing is wrong. We are just coming from elections where she was the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia and the elections were marred with a lot of questions.


Mr Kambwili: Just a few months after the elections …


Mr Kambwili: … you find that the same person is appointed as Deputy Chief Justice. As the Opposition, the interpretation that we make is that she is being paid for having sold the elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I therefore, feel that despite the fact that the woman has credibility and her qualifications are all right, the timing is wrong. When people are questioning certain things, it only becomes imperative that you do not vindicate them. In this matter, I feel that, as an Opposition, we have been vindicated in claiming that the elections were rigged.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, during the Kaunda time, we saw a situation where Kaunda used to take, for instance, a minister from Eastern Province to go and serve in Northern Province or a person from Western Province to go and serve on the Copperbelt Province. The idea was to integrate the tribes. However, I find it strange now that the Judiciary will be run by people from one corner of the country which is Eastern Province.


Mr Kambwili: Both the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice come from Eastern Province when we have seventy-three tribes with a number of lawyers belonging to different tribes.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is my next door colleague in order to speak in the manner he is doing by bringing a name of an individual into disrepute when he knows very well that those individuals cannot defend themselves? He is insinuating that somebody has been paid when that person is not here to defend herself? I ask for your serious ruling as to whether he is in order to use such language on the Floor of this House?

Mr Speaker: My ruling on the point of order by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is that appropriately, I am aware that some hon. Members of the Executive are going to participate in this debate and will correct or clarify as they so think whatever misconceptions that maybe debated on this Floor. In that case, I take it that those hon. Members of the Executive will defend the nominee who obviously, cannot defend herself in this House.

The hon. Member for Roan may continue, but should temper his language.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted I was saying that the issue of tribal balancing is very important and cardinal issue in Zambia where we have seventy-three tribes. For instance, there are three wings of Government, the Judiciary, the Executive and the Legislature.

Here at Parliament, sorry to …

Mr Speaker: Order! Not here at Parliament, debate.


Mr Kambwili: At the Legislative level we have seen that the Speaker comes from a different …

Mr Speaker: Order! Move on to the next point, if you have any.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, you can see from the Executive that the President comes from a different tribe and the Vice-President comes from Eastern Province. We expect that these are issues that should be looked at. I am very concerned to find that the Judiciary is going to be run by the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice who come from one area of the country.

With these few words, I support the appointment.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Ms Njapau): Mr Speaker, I rise to give a very brief contribution to the debate on the motion. I support the appointment of Mrs Mambilima because the lady is intelligent and educated and I do this without any reservation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Njapau: Mr Speaker, we are not looking at where one comes from, but at the person’s performance.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Njapau: I feel that Mrs Mambilima is the right candidate and we have to support her.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Njapau: Mr Speaker, this thing of saying that because I come from North Western Province and the people serving come from Western Province  or other provinces even when I know that I am unable to do what those people are able do is out. The way I look at this woman is that she can perform and she has performed.

I remember the time when I was young she was already in the system, therefore, I stand here to support the appointment of the lady and this side of the House will support her without reservation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I totally support the motion before us.

Mr Speaker, I disagree with the hon. Member for Roan because it is not true to state that when a head of department and his deputy come from the same province amounts to some kind of displacement of power.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: The lady we are talking about here is well qualified and deserves it. She has shown her capability to do the right job at the right time and to the right people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: I, therefore, would like to advise the hon. Member for Roan that that kind of thinking is very retrogressive. We need to give people what they deserve. Mr Speaker, Mrs Mambilima deserves what she has applied for since she has all the qualities to be what she is supposed to be.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice of wisdom because I am a senior hon. Member and from the seniors you expect total wisdom.

In my wisdom of contribution to the debate, first of all, I would like to congratulate the two nominees whom this august House will this afternoon ratify without reservations. They have led the Judiciary without blemish. Mr Speaker, we are all convicts because man is born an arrested person. There is no man who is born free. If we look at the present dispensation of justice, I implore that these two permanent and eminent Zambians will add value to the administration and dispensation of justice.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: My principal concern within my frame of wisdom is delay in the dispensation of justice.

Mr Speaker, when an ordinary petty thief along Cairo Road steals from a motorist, his case is dispensed within a month. If one month is too long, within six weeks, it will be done and the chapter will be closed and the poor man is convicted.

I would like to ask this august House whether the ratification of these two hon. people will bring back the confidence which the Zambians have lost in the Judiciary because of the delay in the dispensation of justice. I also ask this august House whether these two will inject new venom of dispensing of cases of prominent people within a reasonable period of time.

It has occurred that a case is delayed, but I will not mention any particular cases. We all know that there have been some cases in courts which have dragged until the evidence is vitiated meaning so weakened that it becomes irrelevant and those prominent people have walked away scot free. Is that justice? No, that is not justice. We want justice when these hon. men and women come to the bench such that within a reasonable period of time a case is disposed of and an accused either goes to prison or is acquitted. This is simple logic.

Mr Speaker, we are appealing, through this august House and through this wisdom of my long stay in this august House that we would like to see change in the administration of justice. There are too many people sitting in prisons waiting for their appeals to be heard. Mind us, as we endorse our colleagues today, one of us can go in there tomorrow.

To languish for five years waiting for an appeal or mere trial is punishment enough. Let us today ratify these honourable people of Zambia bearing in mind that they will change and expedite justice in our courts rather than increase the inefficiency which the Judiciary has exhibited in this country. There is no happy person about the inefficiency in the Judiciary. This is the opportunity, Mr Speaker, to talk about it. Our country’s judicial system has degenerated to very dangerous levels.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of the Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. Let me state from the word go that I support the appointment of the two.

Mr Speaker, I am one of those people who are convinced that if there are few women of substance in this country, Mrs Irene Chirwa Mambilima is one of them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, Mrs Mambilima has a history which we are all proud of. Allow me, however, to take more time to comment on Mr Albert Mark Wood, the man I know personally. I came to know this man in 2002 when he came to the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC) as the Board Chairperson. At the time, I was at the helm of the Human Resource in that organisation.

We did not know who he was until we saw him. He was and still is a charming person. However, behind that charming personality, we came to realise, was a strong man with a strong character, yet fair and full of integrity.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: This is a man who came to the Zambia State Insurance Corporation at a time when we had myriad financial difficulties. His vision and approach to financial matters helped the ZSIC and today, I can say it is well balanced.

This is the man who helped us bring together management and the union. He is a man who recognises that the union is an integral part of running the organisation. As I speak today, in this chamber, the ZSIC is a very stable organisation. You cannot have a man better than that. Personally, I would like to support Mr Wood because he definitely will not fail this country.

Mr Speaker, as regards timeliness in the dispensation of justice, this is a man we can rely on. If you went one minute late to the boardroom, you would find Mr Wood already in his position. In terms of punctuality, he is a man I can compare to the hon. Mr Speaker. He is never late …

Mr Speaker: Order! Leave the Speaker out of this debate.


Mr Mbulakulima: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, Mr Wood has brought a lot of stability to the ZSIC. He has helped the organization a lot as you may realise that the Zambia Union of Financial and Allied Workers (ZUFIAW) is one of the most difficult unions to handle, however, with his experience and approach to industrial issues, today, ZUFIAW gets along very well with this institution.

Mr Speaker, I wanted to participate and say this is the man we can rely on.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba (Kasama): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to state that I support the nominations of Her Ladyship, Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima as the Deputy Chief Justice and Mr Albert Mark Wood as Puisne Judge.

Mr Speaker, my contribution to the debate is more of general counseling to the two individuals who I believe are going to be ratified by this Parliament. To help me do so, I would like to start from the point of law and to be specific, the preamble.

Mr Speaker, the Constitution of Zambia Cap.1 in the preamble says and I quote:

“WE THE PEOPLE OF ZAMBIA by our representatives, assembled in our Parliament, have solemnly maintained to resolve to maintain Zambia as a Sovereign Democratic Republic;

DETERMINED to uphold and exercise our inherent and inviolable right as a people to decide, appoint and proclaim the means and style to govern ourselves; …”

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: “…RECOGNISE the equal worth of men and women in their rights to participate, and freely determine and build a political, economic and social system of their own free choice;

PLEDGE to ourselves that we shall ensure that the State shall respect the rights and dignity of a human family, uphold the laws of the State  and conduct the affairs of the State in such manner as to preserve, develop and utilise its resources for this and future generations;

DECLARE the Republic a Christian nation while upholding the right of every person to enjoy that person’s freedom of conscience or religion;

RESOLVE to uphold the values of democracy, transparency, accountability and good governance;

 AND FURTHER RESOLVE that Zambia shall forever remain a unitary, indivisible, multi-party and democratic sovereign State;


Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, the role of the Judiciary cannot be underplayed in a democracy. The Judiciary as I submitted, earlier, on the appointment of the other two judges who were ratified by this Parliament during this session, is the custodian of public morality. That is, the custos morum, which means that the people of any country or the people of Zambia expect the Judiciary to safeguard those values by which they want to be governed.

Zambia is a democratic State. Wherever signs of endangering our survival in as far as democracy is concerned emerge, we expect the Judiciary to come in and ensure that democracy is protected in our Republic.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, the importance or significance of constitutionalism cannot be over emphasised. In a country such as ours, which is an open society, we expect governance according to what the laws of our land state. We expect governance according to the Constitution. Sir, Article 1 (3), clearly provides that this Constitution shall be the supreme law of the land and that any other law which is inconsistent with this Constitution shall to the extent of the inconsistency be avoid. It is the people of Zambia who have said so.

Sir, any conduct, behaviour or acts which do not have a legal pedigree or any conducts that are not in congruence or in line with what the laws of the land states or laws which are contrary to what this Constitution says, is unconstitutional. The opposite of unconstitutional conduct is autocratic rule. The more advanced version of autocratic rule is dictatorship.


Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, dictatorship in a democracy cannot be sustained.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Anaconda!

Dr Chishimba: The people of Zambia have spoken. It not we, as individuals, as parliamentarians or as the three organs of Government, but it is the people that have spoken. We must remember that, as a sovereign State, this independence that we enjoy today did not come without a price.

Mr Speaker, freedom fighters fought very hard and selflessly to ensure that this land which was taken away from them by the colonialists was returned.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Let us always remember the lessons of what our people went through during colonisation. While colonialist stated or asserted that there were certain guarantees which were in the laws to protect the interest of the natives, the reality always was that, whenever certain abuses of human rights were noticed or recorded, or whenever the people of Zambia or Northern Rhodesia appeared before the courts, that justice which was said to be available for them was not there.

Last year, I believe I gave an example of the case of De Jegar who was found with literature contrary to the governor’s proclamation or which was regarded as prohibited literature among the natives. Whilst colonialists provided that African interests would be secured, that case proved that the interests of Africans were not secured before at the courts of law. Yet, we are coming from the background where our ancestors or our forefathers fought for the establishment of a Government which should be a Government of the people by the people for the people …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: … in the spirit of self determination.

Mr Speaker, when you are talking about Abraham Lincoln’s definition of democracy which is a government of the people by the people for the people, this applies, as I said earlier, to all organisations that aspire to political leadership.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: If you are a political party, you must …

Mr Speaker: Order! I now expect the hon. Member for Kasama Central to connect what he has just said …


Mr Speaker: … to the Motion of the Floor.


Mr Speaker: May you connect your debate to the Motion on the Floor.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Sir, to connect to the Motion, which I was about to do, I would like to state that, we expect the men and women who are called to the Bench to ensure that principles of natural justice are upheld at all costs.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, men and women who are called to the Bench are called to perform a sacred function.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: We expect them to be impartial, at all costs, just as the Constitution, itself, provides on the Judiciary. We do not want to have men and women on the Bench whose judgements are somehow politically motivated.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: We expect them to be above board. They have to remember that they are there to ensure that public morality, as I said earlier, is maintained. They have to make sure that the laws of our land are applied fairly and in a manner which is just. Men and women of the Bench, their Lordships and Ladyships, must always remember that when the people talk about transparency and accountability, they are saying that they do not want governments of thieves by thieve for thieves.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: They want governments which will be there for them. Therefore, whenever matters to do with transparency and accountability in the Republic are brought before them, they have to ensure that the interests of the country take a centre stage. They have to play central role. This is the only way that confidence is going to be built, of course, in the men and women of the Bench.

Mr Speaker, as a Christian nation, it is extremely important for our men and women of the Bench to always remember that when they are saying they are a Christian State, we expect them to ensure that they always reflect the values of a Christian State. Jesus Christ said, he had come to speak for the down trodden. Today, we have so many people who are down trodden.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Sata!

Mr V. Mwale: Anaconda!

Dr Chishimba: Therefore, whenever they are dealing with cases of human rights, it is important for them to realise that the function which they perform is divine, hence, the need for them to submit to what God Almighty expects of them. The Majesty of Heaven expects them to be fair because the office they occupy is divine.

Dr Scott: He is campaigning.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, let me talk about crime in general. As Sir Carleton Allen said - I am talking about public morality - “Crime is crime because it consists wrong doing which directly, and in serious degree, threatens the security or wellbeing of society and because it is not safe to leave it redressable only by compensation to the part injured.”

Mr Speaker, even though this definition has somehow been critisised, let me state that the emphasis on ensuring that public security or order is maintained, the mention of public order and security simply means that whenever criminal matters are brought before the courts, they have to make sure that whilst affording the rights of the criminals and the accused, they must ensure that they take the interests of the general public first before anything else.

Mr Speaker, as I said that this definition has been critisised by Professor Smith and Brian Hogan because a crime may remain a crime long after it has ceased to threaten the security or wellbeing of society.

Sir, let me also continue to state clearly that the courts must know that the public have an interest in the enforcement of criminal law, what is termed the right of private prosecution.

Mr Speaker, we are talking about the fight against corruption today. In order for our people to participate fully, in ensuring that this vice is brought to a halt, there is need to increase the people’s understanding on their rights to prosecute as well so that wherever they see corruption taking place, the people of Zambia will always rise and condemn it.

Mr Speaker, let me also state that whenever the courts are dealing with criminal matters, it is important to always be guided by the now celebrated judgment of Lord Sankey in the case of Woomington and the DPP, when he said,

“it is not for the prisoner to establish his innocence but for the prosecution to establish his guilt. Where the prosecution must prove the guilt of the prisoner, there is no such burden made on the prisoner to prove his innocent and it is sufficient for him to raise a doubt as to his guilty.”

Mr Speaker, what does this mean? This simply means that our Constitution as I said, has authoritatively entrenched certain rights and freedoms which are accorded to the accused or to those who appear before the courts as suspected criminals. This simply means that the right to presumption of innocence is quiet important. All the facilities must be accorded to the accused whenever they appear before our courts.

Mr Speaker, when I referred to the preamble, I said that the people of Zambia recognise the equal worthy of men and women in their rights to participate and freely determine and build a political, economical and social system of their own free choice. I talked about this because men and women must always be protected. We are in a country where we have what I would call a dual liberal system.  This is where we have English law or common law practiced and on the other hand customary law is applied.

Sir, many times, we have seen a situation where certain customs and traditions have always worked against women because as you are aware, customary law applies to certain ethnic groupings. This means that customary law differs from one particular region or place to another place. Therefore, whenever cases to do with the abuse of women are brought before the courts, we expect the courts to always protect the interests of women and children. We have seen the skyrocketing of cases involving the defilement of children. We have also seen the skyrocketing of cases where women are brutally beaten, of course, by their husbands or men and that is violence against women.

Mr Speaker, whenever such cases come before the courts, I want to emphasise that the courts must take the interest of women into account very seriously.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Sir, as for Judge Irene Mambilima, I would like her, as a woman to ensure that, not of course, in a manner which is bad but fairly to ensure that the rights of women at the Supreme Court always come first.

Mr Speaker, I would like Judge Irene Mambilima, in whom I have confidence to ensure that she adopts the model which we saw in the case of Achibwe and Chibwe, where a woman who was married under the Ushi custom was given a paltry share of the family property. On appeal, the Supreme Court upheld that customary law is applicable as long as it is not repugnant to natural justice and good conscience. As the courts apply the laws of the land, they have to make sure that the interests of women and children are respected and  that democracy is protected at all costs.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, Government fully supports the appointments of Judge Irene Mambilima and Mr Albert Mark Wood to the positions of Deputy Chief Justice and High Court Judge, respectively.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, both candidates are eminently qualified for these positions and they have been overwhelmingly supported by the Select Committee and all those who testified before the committee. In particular, it is gratifying to note that the committee strongly supported the appointments.

Sir, the support we have received confirms that the President made impeccable appoints which are in the national interest.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Sir, as people’s representatives, when we overwhelmingly ratify these appointments, such ratifications give confidence to the appointees that they are, in fact, supported by the people of Zambia.

Sir, to start with, Judge Mambilima’s Curriculum Vitae shows that she has risen through the ranks to the position where she is today. Even when conditions of service were unattractive for judges, she continued to sacrifice and rendered services to the nation. We should emulate this attribute.

Mr Speaker, I know that in her progression, she has served in my ministry as a State Advocate and in the Judiciary in various capacities until she became a Supreme Court Judge. During my days as a practitioner, it was a pleasure appearing and presenting cases before her. Again, personally, when I was President of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) we interacted on several occasions during those Law Reform Workshops and Seminars arranged between LAZ and the Judiciary. Judge Mambilima is not only immensely competent, she is also reform minded, innovative and an efficient administrator.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Sir, I must also mention that when I served as Attorney-General and Chairman of the Council of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education, (ZIALE), she served as my Vice-Chairperson. She was always available to preside over Council meetings in my absence.

Mr Speaker, my speech would not be complete without mentioning Judge Mambilima’s contribution to the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: She has transformed the Commission to what it is today, a truly independent and efficient Commission. The Commission has been reformed in line with the new Electoral Act. We all know that the 2006 elections were the best conducted ever with fewer problems. I am sure that she will also contribute to the reforms and ongoing transformation of the Judiciary.

Judge Mambilima has served Government and the Judiciary with distinction and she deserves the appointment which she is getting today of Deputy Chief Justice. She is a competent and extremely intelligent woman. I must also inform the House that she is also serving as a Judge on the Supreme Court of the Gambia …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: …and she is our ambassador there.

Mr Speaker, we are committed to gender equity in making these appointments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Hence, we must elevate competent and intelligent women as we have done in this case.

Now, Hon. Kambwili, who said that lawyers must not be involved in the ratification process, tried to discredit the report of the committee and made some personal attacks on the Judiciary. We should not be petty and malicious but we should give credit where it is due. Her Ladyship has performed with distinction and we should give her credit.

Mr Speaker, lawyers are part of the justice delivery system just as much as members of the public and the Judiciary are. Therefore, all these players should participate in the ratification process. In fact, from time in memorial, if Hon. Kambwili, who is not in the House, as usual, does not know, lawyers have always participated in this kind of process.

As for Mr Albert Wood, whom I know personally, is a professional colleague who has distinguished himself, particularly, in the practice of Commercial Law. His ethical and professional standing is unblemished. He is an active member of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and extremely competent. During my days as president of the LAZ, he served as my vice-president and gave me tremendous support …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: …in the execution of programmes of the LAZ. He has a very pleasant personality and I am sure that Legal Practitioners will enjoy appearing before him. I have no doubt that he will distinguish himself on the Bench.

Finally, I would like to urge all hon. Members to support the ratification of the two appointments.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. From the outset, allow me to state that I am an interested party in the sense that I was on your committee that sat to deliberate on the two appointments and also because I am a lawyer by profession.

Mr Speaker, I stand to support the appointments that are before you. I am conscious of the consequences of such a statement, and the questions that normally arise in the minds of hon. Members and the public because we are dealing with a figure who is not hidden to the public, and a figure who has been tested and tried in very trying professional positions, and consequently, dealing with a person who cannot be unblemished by some of the mistakes that happened in such positions.

Mr Speaker, in supporting the appointments, I want to begin with the hon. Deputy Chief Justice to be, Hon. Mambilima. I am aware of the fact that there were problems with the recent elections held. I am also conscious of the fact that we could have done a lot better. The question that still remains to be answered is whether it was the problem of one individual or the problem of the system of elections in the country. As I stand here, I believe that until this country begins to differentiate between performance of an individual and the situation in which that individual performs, we are bound to confine very intelligent and able individuals to the outside because we feel that they are to blame for structural imperfections. Sir, one for the problems that she had to contend with was the problem of the legal structure itself in which she operated.

Mr Speaker, one of the questions that I asked her was, if given an opportunity to make changes to the electoral system, what kind of things would she like to see done, because for me, that would show whether the individual was only interested in the position or making things better. One of her answers which I was very happy with and impressed by was the statement that she would like to see the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) decentralised into various districts. Sir, this would mean that people who stand as electoral officers are well known to the communities in which the elections are taking place.

It becomes a little more complex to bring in people from the Office of the President like the situation obtaining now. One of the problems is that we find electoral officers, who we see for the first time, appearing at the polling stations. Those are some of the difficulties that we face, and that is a structural problem. Therefore, if our law was to change to deal with that problem, it would be a law that decentralises the ECZ and assists it to become the transparent and acceptable to the community in which it operates.

Mr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kaingu:  Mr Speaker, I would like to learn from you. Is the hon. Member speaking on the Floor in order to debate in the manner he is when actually he is a member of the committee that produced this report? Since his chairman has already spoken, I thought he was speaking on behalf of the whole committee? Is he in order?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources wants to learn whether it is in order for a committee member to also speak in addition to the chairman’s presentation. The answer is yes, so long as that member supports the Motion, which the hon. Member for Chifunabuli is doing.

The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I am very grateful.

Secondly, I am also conscious of the fact that the same candidate for the position of Deputy Chairperson also introduced transparent ballot boxes. Again, that is a plus to the person who occupied that office. We also need to remember that an individual can only go that far if the system in which that individual operates has its limitations. We should not pump blame of a structural nature on the individual who occupies the office. Then, there is something wrong with the way we run. That is why there is a lot of hatred in our country because it is because we marry things that should not be married. When we need changes to the structure, let us deal with the law. The competence or incompetence of an individual must be judged from the position of how they act in difficult environments and in my opinion the lady acquits herself quite well.

Mr Speaker, there were difficulties at the end with the elections, but as I said when I began, those difficulties cannot be lumped on the head of an individual. It would be very unfair. Actually, it would be getting the best in the country and throwing them away because of the structural problem other than their own abilities.

Mr Speaker, as it has been said, I am one of those also who has appeared before the hon. Judge both in the High Court and in the Supreme Court. She is a very intelligent and objective individual. I have lost cases before her and won some before her, but where credit has to be given, it has to be given. It is not an issue whether I won a case before her or not.

Mr Speaker, I am also on record and the hon. Mr Speaker knows that I have presided over other select committees of this House previously and one of those committees which was to do with judges ended up being disbanded by this House. Having said that, I still believe that things that are right are right and things that are wrong are wrong. Therefore, we must stand and defend people who do the right things even if in a limited way because they are limited by the environment and circumstances in which they operate.

Sir, I want to say that all of us have faults and problems, and there is no perfect individual. If we are looking for perfect individuals, we have a serious mistake to deal with. We must look at how much can this person help us to develop and move a step further. To me, the issue ends there. A human being will only do as much as they are able to do as human beings, but the country will move forward if each one of us can contribute in their area of profession and lead the country forward. So, we should not bring issues that are a bit personal or that concern us as individuals when we are dealing with individuals.

Mr Speaker, we are a diversity of people and there are people who believe things that I do not believe in, but I should not judge them on that basis. I will judge them by the integrity of their character, and their ability to perform and that is irrespective of whether I like them personally or not because a person who deserves to have a position must have it.

Sir, the other point that was a little sticky as we considered this was the fact that there were some senior people ahead of her, people who would have deserved to be appointed, but in these issues, we have to accept that the law gives the power to appoint to only one individual and it is that individual who appoints and our job is to look at whether the appointment is meritorious or otherwise. We cannot go to the question of what was the motive. As far as I am concerned, what we should be considering is the person who is taking this position of Deputy Chief Justice able to perform the functions to which this person is being appointed. To me, that is a concern.

Sir, having said that, I want to say that I would have been happier if somebody senior was appointed, but I am not the appointing authority and our job as a committee, ended at looking at the qualifications, competence and whether or not they merit that particular appointment. That is where it ends and it cannot go beyond that otherwise, we will witch hunt and we will fail to deal with the issues objectively.

Mr Speaker, as for me, objectivity is what will carry this country forward. I may not like some people by their facial outlook, but that is how they were born and there is nothing that they can do about it. So, Sir, we need to accept that these things will happen among us but we should do our work without looking at such kind of things.

Sir, I have worked with Mr Albert Mark Wood and I have no problems with him. He is a very good individual and one with a very easy going attitude, somebody approachable and somebody who you can discuss issues with.  Sir, those are the kinds of individuals we should be putting in positions of authority - people who take themselves as servants of the people.

Sir, power has a tendency to corrupt and consequently, if we take people who are already corrupted by power, what we are doing is creating a recipe for problems in our country.

Sir, I, therefore, have no problems in supporting the appointment of the two individuals who have been presented to the House for ratification.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Mr Speaker, my task is made simple because the support to the motion has been overwhelming although there have been differences in reasons advanced.

However, once again, I would like to place on record that this House is ratifying the right people for the right positions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Both persons are competent, well educated, exposed, fair minded and have a fair understanding of what justice is. They are impartial and I am positive that in the dispensation of justice they will merely exhibit what they have learnt. This country stands to benefit because they will add value to the Judiciary.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.




The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Excess Expenditure Appropriation (2005) Bill, 2008



The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa):  Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity to address the House on the occasion of the second reading of he Mines and Minerals Development Bill, 2008. I will cover the following topics:

1. Background and Rationale;

2. Benefits of the Bill to Zambian Citizens and Citizen-owned companies; and

3. Salient features of the Bill.

Background and Rationale

Mr Speaker, the need to cater for changed aspirations of the Zambian people for the mining sector and the challenges arising out of the privatisation of the mining industry have necessitated the review of the Mines and Minerals Act. Since 1995, when the present Act became effective, the social and economic situation in Zambia has changed significantly. The current Act was passed to support the policy of privatisation of the mining industry and this goal has been achieved.

One significant social and economic change in recent past is the desire of the people of Zambia to directly participate in mining, not only as employees, but as owners of operations and as employers. The Bill, therefore, seeks to supplement the provisions of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act passed in this House in 2006.

Mr Speaker, my ministry held two stakeholder consultative workshops in the course of last year to review the Mines and Minerals Act 1995. The first workshop took place in August for stakeholders other than Members of Parliament and traditional rulers in our country. We held the second workshop in November specifically for hon. Members of Parliament and traditional rulers from the House of Chiefs. We have taken stakeholders contributions into account when preparing the Mines and Minerals Development Bill of 2008.

I should add that in balancing various interests of the stakeholders, we have also taken into account views expressed in related workshops held since October 2006 to review the country’s Mining Policy that gave rise to the Mines and Minerals Act of 1995.

2. Benefits of the Bill to Zambians Citizens and Citizen-owned Companies

Mr Speaker, the Bill has the following provisions to benefit Zambian citizens and citizens-owned companies in line with the provisions of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act 2006.

(a) Reserving prospecting permits, artisans mining rights, small scale mining licences and small scale gemstone licences for Zambian citizens and citizen owned companies. Zambians, however, would remain free to enter into mine development partnerships with foreign investors, but only up to 49 per cent equity participation by non-Zambians.

(b) Reserving mining rights for industrial minerals for Zambian citizens and citizens owned companies. In this case too, Zambians should remain free to enter into mine development partnerships with foreign investors, but only up to 49 per cent equity participation by non-Zambians.

(c) Zambian citizens seeking consent to undertake prospecting and mining activities within an area already under a large scale mining right would now have the opportunity to seek intervention of the Minister when such consent is unreasonably withheld.

These provisions are designed to increase Zambian participation in the ownership of mines in the country and to increase benefits to the Zambian society generally.

3. Salient Features of the Bill

Mr Speaker, the House may recall that one of the major reasons why since July 2007 we have not yet resumed receipt of new applications for mining rights in because we lack a legal basis for cadastre regulation. To open to the public the new cadastre system, we have to publish cadastre regulations through a Statutory Instrument. The Mines and Minerals Development Bill, once enacted, would provide the legal basis for the Statutory Instrument.

Among other things, the Bill provides for development of mineral royalty sharing mechanism. This provision is designed to meet the expectation of local communities to benefit from the mineral royalty accruing to Government from their areas. The mineral royalty sharing mechanism would be developed in the course of 2008.

Other new elements in the Mines and Minerals Development Bill, 2008, include the following:

1. Removal of provision for the Minister to enter into development agreements. The Bill contains positive elements ordinarily found in a development agreement. These elements include the requirement for a mine developer to come up with programmes for local business development, employment and training of Zambians.

Consequently, the Bill also provides that existing development agreements shall cease to be binding on the Republic upon coming into effect of the new Mines and Minerals Development Act 2008.

2. Restriction on area sizes for large scale mining rights. It is proposed that a large scale prospecting licence should be limited to a maximum area size of 1,000 square kilometres, and a large scale mining licence to a maximum size of 250 square kilometres. The size restriction is practiced by a number of other countries in the world including some of our neighbouring countries.

During the stakeholder consultations to the prepare the Bill, many workshop participants express concern over the fact that most parts of Zambia were under prospecting licences covering large areas and the owners …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was discussing the salient features of the Bill.

Sir, during the stakeholders consultations that were held on the Bill, many workshop participants expressed concern over the fact that most of parts of Zambia were under prospecting licences covering large areas of land and that such areas allegedly have been held for speculative purposes and the proposal to reduce area sizes is informed by this experience.

3.  The 50 per cent relinquishment at renewal of a prospecting licence will no longer be negotiable. There are two main reasons for this proposal:

(i) To encourage prospecting companies to speed up identification of a highly promising area which can be retained for mine development; and

(ii) to increase ground turnover in order to give chance to other investors to invest in the mining sector.

4.  Providing requirements in line with the international guidelines on mining, processing, transportation, storage and marketing of uranium ore which should be met by an applicant for mining licence to mine uranium and other radioactive materials. The international guidelines are monitored by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) of the United Nations and that we have held all the consultations with the IAEA and that soon after the law is enacted these guidelines will be enacted as regulations.

5.  Introduction of an annual operating permit in order to enforce regulations and monitor compliance with safety, health and environmental requirements. Every holder of a mining right or mineral processing licence will be required to comply with this requirement.

6.  Introduction of a mining rights registry which should contain third party interests such as boundaries of farms held on title, gazetted forest areas, game management areas and others. This will facilitate obtaining consent for an investor to enter such areas for mineral exploration or mining activities. Many other countries in the region and beyond have this registry.

Mr Speaker, the registry once established, will promote transparency in the management of mining rights. The registry will remain open to members of the public for them to access information on mining and non-mining rights.

Mr Speaker, Government is implementing a programme of restructuring and strengthening the capacity of my ministry to be able to administer the new law effectively. As I explained recently in my debate on the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the ministry, we are carrying forward the work commenced in 2007 of restructuring the ministry.

Procurement of laboratory and other pieces of equipment has begun. The equipment includes portable analytical instruments (XRFs) for detecting the mineral and metal elements and other concentrations. From now on, we want as a country to know exactly mineral contents of what is being exported for appropriate taxes to be paid.

Mr Speaker, the Mines and Minerals Development Bill, 2008 is progressive, as it addresses post-privatisation challenges and national aspirations. It also supports long-term investments through security of tenure for both local and foreign investors.

Mr Speaker, I, therefore, wish to seek full support of the House on this Bill and pave the way for increased participation of Zambians in the ownership of mines and for enhanced benefits from the mining industry for all the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you on behalf of the committee for according us the opportunity to study the Mines and Minerals Development Bill of 2008. Your committee are also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before them and offered invaluable input to their findings.

As was expected, Sir, the number of witnesses who applied to appear before your committee was overwhelming. In addition, some of the witnesses regretted having limited time in which to make comprehensive comments to the Bill and some went as far as requesting to appear before your committee more than once. This goes to show the interest that the people have in the mining sector of our country.

Due to the limited amount of time allocated for deliberations, your committee had difficulties accommodating every one who wished to appear before them. That notwithstanding, I wish to assure you and the House that your committee handled all matters presented before them through written memoranda and oral submissions, very meticulously. It is against this background that, I implore the House to adopt the recommendations of your committee.

Sir, allow me now to highlight some of the salient features of the findings of your committee. In so doing, I will restrict myself to a few issues so that my colleagues on the committee may have the opportunity of highlighting some of the other features.

Sir, all the witnesses who appeared before your committee were in agreement that it is expedient to repeal the Mines and Mineral Act of 1995, so as to revise the law relating to the exploration for, mining and processing of minerals, the promotion of economic empowerment and broad-based participation of citizens in the mining sector and the promotion of mining investment and development, as well as the contribution of revenue to Government treasury by the mining sector.

On the crucial matter or mineral royalties, all except two of the witnesses were in support of mineral royalties being pegged at 3 per cent of the norm value for base metals, 3 per cent of gross value for industrial minerals and energy minerals and 5 per cent of norm value and of gross value for precious metals and gemstones, respectively. Some of the witnesses actually argued in favour of even higher rates than 3 per cent.

The Chamber of mines and the business forum, while agreeing with many aspects of the Bill presented strong opposition to the Bills intention of dispensing of development agreements provided for in the 1995 Mines and Minerals Act on the amendment of the mineral royalty and other charges covered under development agreements. Their argument was that the development agreements were legally binding and could only be amended or terminated at the expiry or through negotiations.

They stated that there was also a window for re-negotiation in every agreement and that they were willing to engage the Government in re-negotiating the development agreements. They were also concerned that the termination of the agreements would erode investor confidence in Zambia and that this would reverse the benefits that Zambia was currently enjoying. They argued that the mines were currently performing well partly because of the development agreements.

Sir, bearing in mind the circumstances that led to the 1995 Mines and Minerals Act and the subsequent development agreements and cognisant of the changes that have occurred ever since with regard to international demand for minerals and the associated high metal prices, your committee recommend that the submissions by the mining companies be considered invalid, as they do not take into account the legitimate demand for the citizens to benefit from the resources that God endowed upon them. They are also ignoring the fact that the extractive industry is exhaustive from which countries the world over collect mineral royalties commensurate with prevailing international prices.

Your committee’s position is supported by various submissions from all the other witnesses who appeared before them. It is your committee’s recommendation to this House that if any sections of the Bill be amended, it should not include Section 160 Sub-Section 1 which for the sake of emphasis I wish to quote.

“A development agreement which is in existence before the commencement of this Bill shall notwithstanding any provision to the contrary contained in any law or in the development agreement, cease to be binding on the Republic from the commencement of this Act.”

To avoid the country being brought under similar circumstances in the future, the committee implores this House to fully support the withdrawal of the discretionary power of any hon. Minister to enter into such development agreements relating to the grant of mining rights.

The committee supports the proposal to reserve certain mining activities for Zambians and Zambian empowered companies only, as this is in keeping with the spirit of the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment Act of 2006.

Sir, nonetheless, your committee recommend that in addition to these measures, the Government should speedily consider promulgating policies that will limit investments into such strategic sectors as the mines to no less than citizen influenced companies; which by law are companies in which citizens own between 5 per cent and 25 per cent shares. This is not far-fetched because your committee are aware of countries in the region where such initiatives are being championed. For example, the Republic of South Africa in pursuit of its black empowerment policy envisages that by 2014, at least, 26 per cent of all shares in the mining sector will be in the hands of the citizens.

The argument that citizens do not have the capacity to buy shares in such large investments is an old and now frail an argument. It has been observed that citizens are capable of raising the requisite finances either from local or international financial markets. What more with the coming into effect of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund.

Mr Speaker, it is also possible that the principal promoters of companies intending to invest in Zambia will themselves facilitate for locals to access the necessary capital. After all, even they themselves invest capital that they borrow from the capital market. This initiative, once implemented will allow Zambians to participate in the running of the mines and fully benefit from this enormous wealth of mineral resources before they are exhausted.

With regard to the revenue from mineral royalty, your committee are concerned that unless there is a strict programme to ensure that these revenues are directed into infrastructure development and towards investment in the productive sectors of the country, the long term impact of the mineral wealth will be reduced.

Sir, your committee are concerned that, the manufacturing sector particularly the mineral-based sub-sector of Zambia is currently too small to absorb a reasonable quantity of the minerals produced. The result of this is the undesirable situation where Zambia’s minerals are exported in their primary form. Your committee urge Government through the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to shift incentives from primary production of minerals to the secondary processing and manufacturing industry to encourage as much local value addition as possible.

It is against this background that the Committee recommend that just as mining licences shall be valid for twenty-five years, a processing licence should not be for seven years but for a minimum of twenty-five years.

Sir, I know my colleagues would like to highlight other issues that arose from our interaction with witnesses. I would, therefore, like to give them a chance to contribute to this important report.

However, I will be failing in my duties if I ended my statement without reporting to you, Sir, that your committee exhibited a high level of commitment to duty by attending the scheduled meetings including sitting on Wednesday, 12th March, 2008, which, as you are aware, was a public holiday. Along with the witnesses who appeared on Youth Day, I present hon. Members of your committee to your commendation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I rise to support this Bill. However, like I usually say, whereas this Bill has raised a lot of fundamental issues and addressed them positively, unfortunately, it does not go far enough. I say so because the civil servants in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development still continue to be mere processors of mining licences.

Mr Speaker, it is high time that the civil service associated with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development start to mesh in the industrial process of the mining regime in our country. What am I talking about?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: They want you to answer them. Answer.


Major Chizhyuka: As you know, I always answer positively. If the civil service thinks that its role ends at only providing the foreigners with licences and the so-called incentives, then this country has not gone far enough.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Looking at the issue of copper mining, is the House aware that in the cell phones, from which the cell phone companies are making billions of dollars, the two main components are copper and nickel?

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Are the hon. Members also aware that the main components in cars are also copper and nickel? Do they know that a Chinese man today uses five kilograms of processed copper per annum?

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I would like hon. Members to multiply that five kilograms by the price of copper and thereafter multiply it by 1.4 billion Chinese to know how much copper is used by China in monetary terms. If the civil service in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development meshed itself in the industrial processing of copper, we would be reaping maximum benefits for this country.

Mr Speaker, it is important that we should move in that direction so that at the end of the day, we have a country in which we own our resources. Do the hon. Members know why the western world hates Hugo Chavez today …

Mr Hamududu: Hear, Hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … and why they are also not too happy about Muammar Gaddafi? The reason is because those Heads of State have ensured that the maximum benefits of the natural resources in their countries go to the indigenous …

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … citizens of those countries. It is as simple as that.

I am quite happy to note that the Vice- President the other day said that the term ‘indigenous’ was becoming popular in Cabinet. That is good, but it should not end at hon. Government Members merely using the term ‘indigenous’ on the Floor of this House. They are required to ensure that the policies that they evolve yield advantages for their indigenous people. Then we can say that we are progressing.

I am also concerned with the issue of incentives. The foreigners are not interested in incentives but in ensuring that they process their copper elsewhere.  Does the hon. Minister know why the mining investors are bringing in refineries with a one million tonnes capacity per year? They want to ensure that they mine all the copper within the shortest possible time and process it in their country. They are going to keep that copper and stock pile it. It will not be too long we shall start importing our own copper from China because this is a finishing resource.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Unless you colleagues in Government who have been mandated with the responsibility of planning the development process for our country understand that Zambia mining contracts should be associated with the processing component in the contract that evolve. Unless you realise that point, I can tell you that you are wasting the resources of this country.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear! Stop mining.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I addressed huge rallies over the weekend in my constituency so my voice is not the best of voices.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: You know I had a landslide and I will have another landslide.


Major Chizhyuka: The Bill does not go far enough because it does not address the concerns for our people with respect to the quantities of land that are given to these mining prospectors as well as mining companies. I am hopping that when we go to the next door to the Mulungushi International Conference Centre for the National Constitution Conference, we shall deal with Article 81 of the Constitution. Once we have dealt with this Article, it will be possible for us to bring on the Floor of this House these money bills which give that Government a bit of spine.

 For instance, only the other day, I was talking about the issues associated with Mugoto. The people of Mugoto were displaced because a mine had to come in place. However, you do know that Southern Province does not only have nickel and gold, there is also uranium. Given this Mines and Mineral Development Bill, there is no safeguard for the indigenous people all over the country.

The people of Siavonga were displaced into the hills because they gave access to the construction of the Kariba Dam. The other day I was explaining that those who come from the land where Hon. Magande comes from see the sun at 1600 hours in the hills and that is the time it sets.

When they discover that there is nickel in those hills, those people on the basis of this Bill we are debating today will again, be displaced. The question is, where else are they going to go?


Major Chizhyuka: I am only giving this as an example. It could be in Chienge, Kaputa or anywhere else in this country.

Mr Chazangwe: Shang’ombo!

Major Chizhyuka: We have to have a Bill or an Act which ensures that the Zambian people who own the land also have the interest of the mineral resources in the bowels of the earth.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: There are examples in the world and on the Floor of this House, I have given examples of the Bafokeng people of South Africa who own 22.8 per cent of the platinum mine which is the second largest platinum mine in the world.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I have given those examples in this House and I have said that the Bafokeng people who are people like you and the people that voted for you do not need the South African Government to build schools or colleges for them because they do it themselves. The Bafokeng people through an Act of Parliament like the one we are debating are building an Olympic stand which is going to house one of the 2010 World Cup because the Bafokeng people have enough resources to be able to build a stadium which has the capacity to house 2010 World Cup. Those are indigenous Bafokeng people like the people that voted for you …

Mr Chazangwe: Lambas.

Major Chizhyuka: … like the Lambas.


Major Chizhyuka: What is it that the Zambian Government is doing to build a tenth rate stadium? They must go to China so that they can build them a stadium at Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium. Your fellow black people are building stadias for themselves they are not looking to China, India or any other country. They are doing it for themselves through the resources in the powers of their earth. You have to look to a foreign country and call yourselves privileged people.


Major Chizhyuka: This is a rich country …

Dr Machungwa: Baambile!

Major Chizhyuka: Zambia is a rich country. What it requires are men and women in Government possessed with sufficient vision to realise that the resources of the country must be exploited to the advantage of the people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Was I not explaining the other day the issues associated with Mugoto. Did I not explain hon. Minister that those people who put in a hundred million investment which covers all the costs of mining nickel at Mugoto Mine? Did I not explain how it comes to about K3.8 billion that they are going to be making for themselves from an investment of US$100 million? The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning told me that he knew …

Mr Magande: Haa!
Major Chizhyuka: … and if he is aware, what action has he taken?

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order, I need your help to understand the debate from the indigenous man from Namwala. Is he in order to say that once we have the minerals, we are going to build schools and yet in Namwala, which is the richest part of Zambia with thousands of cattle and the indigenous people are very rich, but they cannot even build a primary school.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Is he in order to state that once we own the copper, we are going to use that resource for building universities like the others are doing when he cannot build even a single health centre using the rich resources of Namwala. I need your serious ruling Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Namwala will answer that point of order from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, may he continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, it is very unfortunate today that my voice is the way it is.

Hon. Government Members: Drink water.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, for the benefit of this debate and the House, the people of Namwala through Chief Mukobela have built the biggest Basic School ever built by a Chief in the entire country, the Lubanga Shabongwe Basic School. When you get to the people of Lubanga, you will find that there are two statues; one of them is the Freedom Statue while the other is the Statue of Chief Mukobela.

Chief Mukobela built a school from Standard three to Standard six and gave that school 3000 herds of cattle so that the pupils at Lubanga Shabongwe Basic School in Namwala can have milk, honey and everything …

Mr Mubika: Wajata ng’ombe.

Major Chizhyuka: Of the schools that are in Namwala District today and this is why in fact the hon. Minister of Education should be able to give us more schools. Sir, 93 per cent of the schools are built by the people of Namwala.

Hon. Government Members: Minister of Health?

Major Chizhyuka: We have known medicine now, we use mululwe for malaria.


Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker,  I have a very bad voice, but I thought I should use that one minute to explain that the people of Namwala have actually built their own big schools.

Hon. MMD Member: Where?

Major Chizhyuka: You can come with me to Namwala and I will show you what I am talking about.


Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member will address the Chair.

Major Chizhyuka: Thank you, Sir. What I am saying is that the resources of this country, through Bills that we pass, should be given to people of Zambia. When the United Party for National Development (UPND) forms Government, these are the things we shall be doing for the people of Zambia.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: These are the big decisions that make a rich country rich. Mr Speaker, I was told that a pure refined emerald is more expensive than a diamond.

Hon. Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Look at the way Hon. Mpombo looks. He should have been a Sheik.


Major Chizhyuka: He comes from the richest part of this country, but the Somalis and the Senegalese and other people have built a street in Senegal called the Zambia Corner. One of you hon. Ministers should take a trip to Senegal and you will find the Zambia Corner. It is like Sunningdale, but with skyscrapers. It is called the Zambia Corner because everything around that place which is the richest part of Senegal is built from the Zambian emeralds …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … while you sit there and say citizens. I heard the hon. Minister say that when the citizens are empowered. What citizens?


Major Chizhyuka: What citizens are you talking about? Remove the term “citizens” and replace it with the “indigenous people of Zambia.”


Major Chizhyuka: What citizen? Someone will just come from England tomorrow and register as a citizen and because he has got the financial clout, all these things will go to him because he will have become a citizen. And here you are, a black man seated in a chair in a black Parliament preparing things for citizens. Which citizens?


Major Chizhyuka: I want to mention these things, Mr Speaker, because in this country there is a problem associated with men of little confidence in themselves. Switch on your television today and look at the American debate. They call a white man white and a black man black. They call a Hispanic, Hispanic, but here in the Parliament of Zambia if you say white, it will be “Order, order!”


Mr Speaker: Order!


Major Chizhyuka:  Thank you Mr Speaker. These are serious issues and unless you our colleagues who the people of this country, in their own wisdom, have given the mandate to manage the affairs of this country should understand that you must call a spade a spade.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Remove the term citizen, hon. Minister. Remove it. Robert Mugabe has even defined an indigenous Zimbabwean Company …

Mr Speaker: Order! I would like to guide the hon. Member. You ought to have brought about an amendment to the Act that has already become law using the word citizens. If you are still interested in amending, you can bring about the amendment at a later stage. Meanwhile, you may move on.

Major Chizhyuka: I thank you Mr Speaker. Like I have said, after we have dealt with Article 81 at the National Constitutional Conference, we shall bring these amendments. We are going to bring money motions which are going to help the people of Zambia become rich …

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … through the one hundred and fifty of us who have been elected by the people of Zambia because it is our responsibility to ensure that we give the riches of this country to our people.

Hon. UPND Member: Yes, that is right.

Major Chizhyuka: You cannot sit there and call yourself an hon. Minister when the only thing that you are doing is to make a white man richer.


Mr Speaker: Order! Stop addressing the people on your right side, address the Chair.

Major Chizhyuka: Thank you, Sir. This is our wealth. We have a rich country which has copper, uranium, palladium, nickel, gold, emeralds and many others. We also have oil in the North-Western Province. The copper in Chienge is almost 90 per cent. Enrich the Zambians instead of making laws that enrich foreigners. You are nothing, but just a vehicle for their wealth. They ride in you and on you.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Has the hon. Member finished?

Major Chizhyuka: That is my debate, Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Colonel  Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver my maiden speech.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda:  May I beg your indulgence and greet you all in the name of my great party, the Patriotic Front.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, this great party is led by my very able and wise leader in the great son of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: I have no doubt in my mind that the people of Zambia will confirm what I am delivering before you today that they will give this great leader a hearing in the 2011 election.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, let me also pay unqualified glory and tribute to the people of Kanyama Constituency for giving me and my party this rare opportunity of representing them and their cherished interests and desires in this august House.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Against all odds, amidst unparallel squalor, abject poverty and total misery, those great men and women stood up to the challenge and shamed those dishonourable machinations and characteristic of the so called New Deal Mis-Administration.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda:  Mr Speaker, may I thank my family, especially my wife and my daughter, Tungwa, for their moral and practical support in those harsh conditions we faced in Kanyama.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda:   The challenges we faced can at best be described as outright dishonourable, treacherous and an affront on the principles of the rule of law, free and fair democracy to which the hon. men on your right, Mr Speaker, so much proclaim, but do very little about.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, allow me to praise and pay tribute to the entire leadership of the Patriotic Front for exercising maximum restraint against physical violence, abusive language and insults perpetrated by the New Deal Administration in the run-up and during the just ended election in Kanyama.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, is it in order, if I may borrow your term, for the MMD Government to threaten the people of Kanyama Constituency with withdrawal of developmental support if they voted for an Opposition candidate? Is it in order, in this age and era, for a party so senior and entrusted with running the affairs of the State to threaten people like that? Mr Speaker, lest we forget, it is a fact that the 7,831 voters, representing 70 per cent, rejected the MMD Government in Kanyama.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: I find it absolutely compelling that those hon. Men and Women on your right should be advised to revisit the rudiments of multipartism as enshrined in our Constitution. Otherwise, that repeal of Article 4 by our First Republican President will be rendered futile and a total negation on the spirit and character of democracy.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Sir, let me now draw my attention to the problems of Kanyama Constituency. The recurrence of floods in my Constituency, year in year out, is a sad pointer to the myopic nature and lack seriousness in the way the matters have been handled or mishandled by successive Governments. The New Deal MMD Government is no exception. The 1978 floods were, but a wake up call for worse things to come and yet our Governments chose to cast a blind eye thinking that problems will go away on their own.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Colonel Chanda: History has a nasty way of repeating itself and Kanyama floods cannot be ignored by any Government worth its salt.

A solution to this nagging problem must be found if we are to provide the people of Kanyama a decent livelihood.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Sequel to these floods, the road infrastructure in the area has been reduced to a sorry sight. The Blue Boar Road, in its present state, is a nightmare and has only managed to survive this far through self-help initiatives by the residents since Independence.

Mr Speaker, the main Makeni Road has not been spared from Government inertia and the people of that area have been left to fend for themselves through the Makeni neighbourhood watch which has started showing signs of fatigue because of lack of Government relief and intervention.

Sir, feeder roads on mainland Kanyama have not been spared, either.

Mr Sichilima: That is why they fired you.


Colonel Chanda: To re-gravel the Mutandabantu-Mabasela Road which has a distance of 2.8 kilometres and Masauko Road which is only 1.5 kilometres require a total capital injection of only K388,000,000. Sir, to resurface the important Blue Boar Road which is 7 kilometres requires only K4.2 billion and Makeni Road requires K3 billion. Surely, these amounts are well within the means of any reasonable and listening Government, especially in the midst of a calamity that has befallen Kanyama Constituency.

Mr Speaker, under the current state of affairs, that we, the people of Kanyama live under, one may ask, what offence have we committed to be left to such a fate?

Mr Sichilima: Fya fula!

Colonel Chanda: If I may repeat, what offence have the people of Kanyama committed to the New Deal Government to deserve such a fate?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Sir, I would like to turn to the issue of taxation. My party, the PF, has no illusions and is very concerned at the careless manner this Government is playing with the livelihood of our law abiding and peace loving Zambians. Taxes in this country are too high and in some instances, unjustifiable.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Our people have been made to tighten their belts for too long to breaking points. This Government must have mercy for our poor Zambians and give them a break. You are choking your people. Sir, asking the people to tighten their belts at this stage can be equated to strangling them to death.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, the Fuel Levy is one issue that should have addressed the issue of potholes in our country, especially Kanyama Constituency. For example, the Fuel Levy is the revenue that should help to avert our road net work blues. Where is that money going, today? Certainly, not towards the intended objective which is the maintenance of the roads. The Zambian motorist has been taken for a ride by our Government and it is time we put a stop to this.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Sir, the Roads Traffic and Safety Agency (RTSA) user fees as circulated are unacceptable. If this Government cannot account for the Fuel Levy, what guarantee do we have that this money will be put to good use? How will I convince the people of Kanyama that the RTSA fees will be put to good use when this Government cannot account for the Fuel Levy that they are charging our motorist so much and yet there is nothing to show?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, in my opinion and that of the people of Kanyama, this increase has the potential of fuelling the corruption that this Government is purported to be fighting. We must reject it.

Hon PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! There is an established style when a Member delivers his or her maiden speech. The rules are that a maiden speech should not be subjected to interruptions by the House. I do hear interjections, and I will explain. But also to avoid those interactions, the maiden speaker should not include in his maiden speech controversial issues.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Controversial issues are left to a later time when the hon. Member has gained sufficient experience to defend himself or herself.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: As it is now, the hon. Member is compelling the Chair to interrupt his maiden speech because he is bringing controversial issues in his maiden speech. Now, if the rest of his speech is less controversial, the Chair would guide him to go to those areas which are less controversial in order to avoid having his speech interrupted. May he continue and use civil parliamentary language and avoid controversial matters. Then neither the Chair nor any hon. Members of the House will interrupt your speech.

 May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, thank you for that guidance. I now move to the 2010 World Cup. Sir, we have approximately twenty-six months to this great event in the region. The potential of this country earning colossal sums of dollars out of this event cannot be over emphasised. Mr Speaker, the apparent luke warm attitude does not give me any guarded optimism for mother Zambia.

Mr Speaker, our neighbours Malawi, Botswana, Angola and Zimbabwe are positively bracing themselves for this spectacle. What is wrong with us? At one time, we were told that this country would provide a stadium in Livingstone, Lusaka and one on the Copperbelt. We have twenty-six months remaining and there is nothing to sing for. This worries me, Sir.

Sir, time allowing, May I now move to the Gabon Disaster.


Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, as an ardent football fun, I take great exception at the quietness for lack of information to the people of Zambia on what happened to our gallant footballers who perished in Gabon.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Sir, it is almost eighteen years now since that fateful day, and the poor Zambian has yet been told what befell our beloved ones. This Government has taken this as, “business as usual.”


Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, I move to Inter- Party Rivalry.

Mr Speaker, the level of mistrust and acrimony among our main key political players in this country is frightening to say the least. Trading of nasty remarks against each other is pathetic. The MMD, as the party in Government has not done any better either. I would like to urge all of us leaders to learn to dialogue and avoid washing dirty linen in public.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, let us learn to direct our bullets at the obvious enemy and the enemy in this regard is poverty and the outbreaks of diseases and the like. Let us learn to embrace each other for the sake of mother Zambia.

Mr Speaker, on the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) the Patriotic Front …


Mr Speaker: Order! I am protecting you. I would like the House to keep quiet and listen to you.

Colonel Chanda: Sir, my party, the Patriotic Front has no illusions about the need for a new Constitution. This Constitution is for the people of Zambia. What we crave for however, is a Constitution delivered with a human face…

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: …in accordance with the wishes and aspirations of all stakeholders on the singular promise of a People Driven Constitution and one that should stand the test of time. Under the status quo, there seem to be a lot of loose ends unacceptable to the Patriotic Front and other well meaning progressing institutions in our land.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, consensus building initiated and championed by the MMD Government should have gone a long way in arraying our fears. We feel that the chauvinistic approach to the noble cause as demonstrated by the New Deal Administration is as dangerous as it is retrogressive. The colossal sums of money being channeled in futility could best be put to good use through provision of much needed goods and services in Kanyama Constituency.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, if I may pose a question, what good is it for this country to spend so much money on a piece of legislation which would only be shredded upon change of Government? It is clear from the onset that the patriotic Government will not honour a Constitution brought about in such an acrimonious manner and rejected by the biggest opposition part in the land.


Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, the writing is on the wall for all of us to see. Let us not be wasteful. My honourable friends who are unfortunately being referred to as Patriotic Rebels should rethink their stand on this issue.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Sir, their constituencies are very uncomfortable with their unilateral paths they have chosen to take. It is never too late. I ask them to come back to the fold to help their party provide checks and balances in governance issues. There cannot be any denial that the party needs all of us.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, in conclusion,…

Mr Muntanga: Just join the NCC also.


 Colonel Chanda: …I want to underscore the fact that the problems of Kanyama are not insurmountable. The resilient people of Kanyama from all strata of our society are ready and willing to take the task at hand. This Government must move away from the rhetoric and provide infrastructure such as feeder roads, water reticulation, reliable electrical energy, health and education facilities as provided for in our National Development Plan and Vision 2030. This, I must admit, will go along way in laying the solid foundation for sustainable growth and development in Kanyama Constituency.

Mr Speaker, on my part, I assure you of my commitment in providing that much needed leadership to break the vicious cycle of poverty and the prevailing depravation. May the God Lord bless the House and the entire leadership of my party, the Patriotic Front as it prepares for the tough but attainable challenges of today and beyond.

Sir, let me end by saluting that gallant Zambian who held the position of hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama for more than one term. The footsteps of Hon. Mtonga are indelible and may God give me the foresight to continue his legacy.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, let me say from the outset that we on this side of the House shall honour the Constitution that will come out of that House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, now we come to the subject at hand which is the Mining and Minerals Act and let us start by the defining what mining is. What is a mine? Once we define that, we shall understand the steps that are necessary to protect the interests of this country.

Mr Speaker, a mine is a combination of two things. The first thing is the resources that God bequeathed on any local people and belongs to them. One hon. Member referred to it as the resources within the bowels of their land. This is the first part of mining. The second part, which is equally important, is the capital that is brought by the investors. Now, when you combine the resources that belong to the local people and the capital brought by the investors, you create a mine and a product that has value.

Mr Speaker, I say this very clearly so that we can understand the position that is being taken on this debate. There should be equity in sharing the output of the mines. The Anglo-American and RST companies that owned most of the mines on the Copperbelt in the colonial days, to some extent, understood this point very well. That is why in the exploitation of mineral resources on the Copperbelt, there was caretaking to ensure that the local people benefited. It is also the reason why towns like Mufulira, Kalulushi, Chingola, Chililabombwe and so on developed. They developed because facilities like roads, schools and hospitals were built and other social facilities like football, golf, tennis, cricket, rugby and bowling clubs were supported. It is, therefore, sad that some investors currently running these mines refuse to pay their equitable share of taxes. I hope they will reflect on the definition that I have provided of a mine.

Mr Speaker, I would now like to look at mines from the grand perspective of a nation. I keep referring to the cherished aim of developing this country into a medium income country by the year 2030. In order for us to achieve this, we must grow the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), and this can only happen if we rely on the resources that God has given us. For a long time to come, we shall continue to rely on mines and minerals. I have said it on the Floor of this House before that minerals, especially copper, is to Zambia what oil is to the Middle East, it is to Zambia what technology is to the United States of America and it is to Zambia what manufacturing is to Japan. It is, therefore, a premier resource upon which the foundation of the developmental efforts of this country must be built.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: As I speak, I must recognise the great effort made by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in bringing to the Floor of this House the Bill that we are debating. Sir, there has been a paradigm shift from protecting foreign investors to ensuring that, at least, there is some measure of sharing of the resources that arise from mining. To some extent, I do agree with one of the previous speakers who suggested that perhaps we have not done enough in the mining sector in order for the GDP that arises out mining to be meaningful and contribute significantly to the growth of this country, it is important that a way be found to ensure that there is great participation by the local people. I have given an example on the Floor of this House that GDP that relies on the mining industry owned by foreigners cannot be said to be true GDP.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: I had given an example of a family that has visitors or traders coming from somewhere else, to buy fish and keep the bundles of the fish in that household. The GDP equivalent when someone visits that household will probably count the bundles of those visitors as well as the bundles of the owners of the household, however, within a week of the visitors leaving, the GDP will have dropped. That is what has happened to Zambia …

Mr Sing’ombe: Tell them.

Mr Milupi: …and that is what we must look out for.
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, one aspect that we must look out for again …

Mr Sing’ombe: Give them more examples.

Mr Milupi: …is to maximise this resource for the people.

Mr Speaker, it is shameful that at the moment 750,000 tonnes of copper, every year, which is about 99.99 per cent, is exported as raw material, creating high value jobs in India, China, Europe and other places, and yet we live in a country where the unemployment rate is  high …

Mr Sing’ombe: Hammer!

Mr Milupi: …that out of 11 million people, only 492,000 are in formal employment.

Mr Speaker, this country can do better. If we process 25 per cent of the copper that comes from the Copperbelt into semi finished products, and later on, finished products, it will provide 50,000 high value jobs.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: By implication, if we process all the copper that we produce into semi finished products, we will create upward of 250,000 high value jobs. In other words, we will increase the level of formal employment that we have in this country by 50 per cent.
Mr Sing’ombe: Another example.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, if we look at the gemstone industry ─ my treasurer who is sitting next to me is very encouraging.


Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, 20 per cent of emeralds in the whole world emanate from Zambia. Furthermore, the highest quality emeralds are from Zambia. About ten years ago, the total worth of all emeralds in the world was about US$1billion and now, they should be worth about US$2billion. By that implication, US$400 million worth of emeralds on the world market come from Zambia and yet, year in, year out, our Budget ignores the fact that this country is rich in emeralds. We have failed, as a country to harness it. Hon. Minister, we are looking forward to a time, in the very near future, when emeralds will play a significant role in contributing to the revenue base of this country.

Mr Speaker, in terms of ownership of mines, the hon. Member for Namwala has already said that ownership of mines does not need one to be a foreigner or have too much money. Investors that you see in this country do not have money of their own.

Mr Sing’ombe: They just come with pata patas.

Mr Milupi: Money comes from banks. The Government needs to ensure that they facilitate the process of the local people participating in the ownership of these mines. There is no investment that is too big for a Zambian to participate in. Do not limit your own citizens to corner shops and little investments and leave the big pies to the foreigners.

Mr Speaker, looking at other areas, I would like to give an example of Western Province, which at the moment is rated the poorest province in the country. In terms of minerals, however, the Western Province has very high grade gold, emeralds and oxide ore for copper in the Kaoma area. We need to unlock those resources.

As the hon. Minister has accepted, at the moment, this is tied up in the exploration licences which last for so many years. To unlock that resource, greater speed has to be exercised in cancelling these exploration licences so that proper investors are brought in that will help from exploration into mining.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: There is technical evidence to show that the amount of diamonds currently in Western Province is greater even than the diamonds in South Africa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, out of the Kimber lite veins that are in South Africa, there is evidence that shows that there is more Kimber lite veins in Kalabo District alone.

Mr Speaker, this has to be brought into fruition and when we do this, it is then, possible to develop this country at a faster rate. The statistics that we are being fed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that we can grow this economy into a medium income country by 2030 while factoring in an annual growth rate 7 per cent, I have shown on this Floor that mathematically that is impossible and it will not happen.

 Mr Speaker, I agree with his vision that indeed, we can become a medium income country by 2030 by growing our economy at a much faster rate and one of the ways to do that is to use the mineral resources available in this country. The mineral resources should not be tied and continue to be locked up by those who were very fast and are fit to get exploration licences and this is what is happening.

Mr Speaker, the other resource which is tied in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is oil.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, oil is available and has been proven in the three districts of North Western Province that is in Chavuma, Zambezi West and Kabompo. We also know and we were pleased when His Excellency the President admitted that three districts in Western Province already have much potential in certain cases than those in North Western Province. We are talking about Mongu, Lukulu and Kalabo.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, if we have to be serious with the plans that we have put in this country, there is need to move fast to ensure that this resource is also moved from resource to a finished product. When we do that through the Mines and Minerals Act, then, we shall be able to develop this country at the rate that we want to develop it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, Government has done a tremendous start to repeal the existing Mines and Minerals Act and replace it with the one that we are debating now. I, therefore, support it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! I can see that there are two other hon. Members who wish to contribute to the debate on this bill. Do they have something different or something they would like to differ with on the bill? If they are supporting, maybe, we can ask the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to wind up the motion on this bill.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the committee for a thorough piece of work.

Sir, it is evident that many interested parties appeared before your committee and raised concerns. Consequently, a very elaborate report has been produced. Apart from that, many progressive amendments have been proposed and we are in consultations so that we can adopt some of them and term them formally as amendments.

Mr Speaker, the question of citizens empowerment has been adequately covered in the bill because we have proposed to preserve certain licences to the Zambian citizens only. We have also proposed to preserve certain minerals for Zambians only to exploit. We have made a good start. The idea is just to keep improving on what we have started and this is also a concern expressed by both Hon. Lubinda and Hon. Major Chizhyuka. We welcome dialogue to ensure that we remain on course and identify avenues for further empowerment of our people in the mining industry.

Mr Speaker, on the question of Development Agreements (DAs), there is just no relationship between the decision to invest on one hand and the existence of the development agreement on the other hand. There are various other factors that are taken into account for someone to take a decision to invest. They will include general favourable investment climate, workable and predictable policies, macro economic stability and social economic stability of a given country. It is legitimate to connect the inflows of funding on investment with the DA. Today, there are many countries which do not have DAs, but they continue attracting foreign direct investment.

Sir, the existence of DAs is the real reason why we continue to have very minimal revenue flaws because of stability periods that are provided for.

Mr Speaker, it is not legitimate that a billion dollar business can only contribute US $147 million to revenue, something should be wrong and the reason is because of DAs. So, we are not going back on those and I am glad that communities have supported our proposal to do away with development agreements.

Hon. Milupi, I would like to thank you for your support and I wish to say that there is a lot of thinking going on today in the area of gemstones sub-sector in order to regulate it, formalise it and make it more accountable to make it contribute more revenues to our coffers. It is true that we are not getting enough because of the informal nature of this sub-sector and a lot of consultations are going on to ensure that we formalise this.

Sir, I would like to thank most sincerely Hon. Major Chizhyuka for his passionate debate on the question of empowerment. We have certainly identified value adding as very important because this will create employment and raise taxes for us. It is for this reason that we have provided for the existence of the prospect processing licence so that we can encourage processing of what we produce within our country using our mineral material as raw materials for producing of finished goods and we are getting a lot of support in this. In the near future, things will change and we will be seeing a lot of industries being established for value adding.

I once again want to thank Hon. Major Chizhyuka, on his concerns on land. In part, this bill has addressed that because we have drastically reduced the size of mining licences in terms of areas as well as prospecting licences in terms of areas. I hope this will answer your concerns in terms of keeping too much land under one or two licence holders and preventing others from participating.

With these remarks, I thank you, Sir.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 20th March, 2008.

THE ROAD TRAFFIC (Amendment) BILL, 2008

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Simbao) (on behalf of the Minister of Communications and Transport) (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Bill before this House is intended to revise the taxes payable per annum, in respect of vehicles, motor vehicles and trailer licences.

Sir, as this House may be aware, Government has been implementing reforms in the road sector through the Road Sector Investment Programmes (ROADSIP) I and II. These reforms were important because of the urgent need to improve and expand our road network across the country. Under RoadSip I, resources were largely provided by our cooperating partners. However, as we continue to implement the second phase of our reforms programme under the RoadSip Sector Investment Program (ROADSIP II), it is imperative that a lot more resources are mobilised internally to meet the increased financial requirement. This is so because the programme is ours and cooperating partners will eventually withdraw, having assisted us so much and for a considerable period of time.

Mr Speaker, as emphasised in the 2008 budget address, all road user charges and fees will now be earmarked and paid solely into the National Road Fund. The proposed review of all road taxes will therefore, not only go a long way in increasing domestic resources, but also directly benefit road users through improved road infrastructure and other services through effective road transport, traffic and safety management.

Mr Speaker, the road sub-sector has been identified as one of the major factor in enhancing economic development and growth. There is, therefore, undeniable need to continually improve and maintain the road network on a sustainable basis. The current road taxes, however, fall short of the required level of resources required to provide efficient and effective road user services. The proposed measure, therefore, is long overdue, but also in line with the recommendations in the report of your committee on the estimates for the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly, appointed on 8th November, 2008.

Sir, this Bill is non-controversial and I commend it to the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to brief the House on matters pertaining to the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill of 2008, which was referred to your committee on Communications Transport Works and Supply on 7th March 2008 for scrutiny.

Mr Speaker, in considering the amendment Bill your committee had fruitful interactions with various stakeholders that included the private sector and some Government wings. Your committee trusts that hon. Members will find the report useful as they debate the Bill.

Mr Speaker, may I take this opportunity to state that as a result of this interaction, your committee managed to come up with a number of observations on the proposed Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill which is on the Floor of the House today.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that most of the stakeholders with whom your committee interacted with were of the view that the proposed Bill was welcome.

Sir, the witnesses who appeared before your committee all registered support for the Bill. In doing so, however, they brought a number of concerns to the attention of your committee. The concerns are recorded in your committee’s report for the consideration of the hon. Members of this House as they consider the Bill.

Sir, your committee wish to agree with some of the observations from the stakeholders on the proposed Bill and these are:

(i) The rural population needs to enjoy the benefits of paying road user charges by having the rural road networking improved and maintained;

(ii) that road transport and safety agency should be made more accountable in channelling funds collected for the intended purposes; and

(iii) that Government should provide justification for increasing fees on farm vehicles such as tractors which rarely use public roads.

Sir, your committee would like to urge the House to consider the contents of the Report as they proceed with the Bill. Your committee also note that most of the witnesses that appeared before them, complained about the short notice that they were given in which to make written submission. Therefore, they recommend that necessary measures be taken to ensure that adequate time is provided to facilitate not only qualitative, but above all, comprehensive and all encompassing reports.

In conclusion, Sir, I wish to register my appreciation to all Members of your committee and the Clerk’s Office for their cooperation and dedication to work and also all the stakeholders who spared their time at short notice to make submission to your committee.

Mr Speaker, I urge this House to support your committee’s recommendation on the Road Traffic (Amendment) N.A.B No. 7 of 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, in Patriotic Front, we have a big interest in taxation and we watch new taxation measures whether they are formal or fee raising with suspicion, and I will just explain briefly. In the world there are two kinds of extreme in terms of taxation and the supply of services financed by that taxation. One would be a country like Sweden, where the taxes are extremely high. You pay more than 50 per cent of your income as a worker in taxation, one way and another. But, nobody complains because the services that you get from before you are born to after you die, the condition of your roads, hospitals, schools and so forth are very much in keeping with that level of taxation. I have never heard of a Swede complain about paying too much tax.

The other extreme is Somalia. There is no Government in Somalia and, therefore, no taxation, but at the same time there are no services. If you are driving along a road in Somalia in one of those trucks with a machine gun in the back, which act as taxes and you come to a pothole, you cannot complain to anybody because you did not pay any tax. And it is futile mainly to complain to the local warlord because he will be engaged most likely in combat with the warlord next door.

Now, in Zambia, we have an interesting hybrid between these two situations. We pay tax like we are Swedes and we get services like we are Somalis.


Dr Scott: We pay fuel levy, and have the highest fuel taxes in the region and yet we have potholes along most of our roads…

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … and complaining is futile. We are just told pay more fuel levy, and more licence fees and we will sort it out. That is why we look with some suspicion on these measures rather than simply saying, “Yes, of course, Government has to have more money to fix roads”.

When I was involved in consulting on RoadSip, four or five years ago, one of the biggest problem was that the fuel levy went in one end of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and it did not emerge from the other end, not half of it, a quarter or a third emerged.

Knowing how much money we were going to have for the maintenance and rehabilitation of roads was like gambling at the casino at the Intercontinental Hotel. That is why we fear that when we agree too easily to these new measures the same thing will happen. It will disappear into the ministry in one end and will not come out the other end.

I do not want to be critical of the committee, but though we have raised this point and they have assured us that this will not be the case, I am not sure that they have assured themselves adequately that somehow the revenue collected by the Ministry will be used for road maintenance.

Mr Speaker, there is also the point which I briefly took up the other day, concerning fee units. It now seems we have two kinds of currencies in Zambia; the Kwacha and the fee unit. These currencies seem to be interchangeable in that a certain amount of fee units equal K1. That is not how the original intention of introducing the fee unit was.

Sir, originally, as I recall, around January or February, 1992, the then hon. And learned Minister of Legal Affairs, Dr Roger Chongwe, brought an amendment to the Witchcraft Act. The main thrust of this amendment was to bring the penalties for practicing witchcraft up from two and six penalty units, which is 25 Ngwee as it had been set out in maybe 1917, to a current value of the Kwacha, which was a realistic deterrent for everybody except for someone with one of those African jets that could be used to fly-off before being arrested by the police.


Dr Scott: Sir, it was observed in Parliament at that time that it would be much simpler to have a double currency; the Kwacha and penalty fee unit, so that somebody who was practicing witchcraft would be charged a certain amount of penalty fee units and then the treasury would set, by statutory instrument, how many Kwachas one penalty unit equaled as we went around to match inflation.

Unfortunately, now we seem to have reverted that a fee unit is actually a unit of currency with a fixed exchange rate with the Kwacha. Just as a way of illustration for the acting hon. Minister, I would like to say, suppose we now brought back the original intention of the fee unit in one month’s time and said that K180 to the fee unit is too little and made it K500, we would have these road licence fees shooting-up again by 200 per cent or 300 per cent.

So I would like to urge Government to get its English idiom straight so that we know exactly whether we are talking Kwacha or fee units and give us the assurances on these rates. These rates are, of course, very anomalous in that they are not simply inflation adjustable. Some of them have not gone up, for example, the cost of a wheel on a hand cart has remained constant. It is very nice to look after the poor in this way, I wonder why they have to be licensed at all. The motor cycle licence has gone up by 200 per cent, motor vehicle licences have generally gone up by 50 per cent and so forth so that there is some structural adjustment and not just inflation adjustment going on.

Personally, I do not think inflation has been captured in anything the committee or the hon. Minister has just said today. Of course, this is just the prelude to the statutory instrument that we are expecting that is going to put up higher road user charges that have not come before this House. As I understand it, these are basically licence fees for the use of vehicles but we still have other fees and penalties to be set by a statutory instrument.

Sir, I would therefore, urge Government or the people on your right to be very careful about how they set about adjusting these things. It impinges on the ordinary people. Already, when I drive to work early in the morning from my house on Leopards Hill road, there are hundreds and thousands of people walking as far as Cairo Road. They set-off to walk to work in the centre of Lusaka because they cannot afford the minibus fares to the point where they have got because of fuel and other charges that impinge upon public transport.

I would hate to see that number or crowd swollen even more. By more, I do not want to use an unparliamentary term ‘hunger’ for resources and taxation by Government that may be tempting, especially in the statutory instrument that is not under scrutiny by a Parliamentary Committee or by Parliament itself.

Sir, I would like to send that message and, of course, having said what I have said, I must oppose and I would like to simply say no to these amendments. I do not think this time there is any cause for a division, especially that the electronic version of the voting system does not appear to be working.

With those words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Sir, I support the amendment and in doing so, I would like to appeal to the Government to obey the law on overloading because once this law is obeyed, then there will be less taxes required to raise money for the repairing of roads.

Sir, I have said so because there are so many examples that I can give and one of them is the example that I have been giving for the past six months, of the cool box, that should have been avoided. We passed a law two years ago limiting the loads and dimensions of equipment that are carried on our roads. However, it is amazing to see that this law is at times broken by Government itself. So my appeal here is that Government should set an example by not breaking the law regarding overloading.

Another issue that I would like to raise here is the construction of our roads. Let us avoid shoddy supervision because this can lead to poor workmanship in the construction of our roads.

Finally, on the fuel levy, I note that at the beginning, some five years ago, there were problems with the way the fuel levy was handled. However, I now note that there are not many complaints from the agents that deal with the fuel levy and therefore, I take it for granted that things are better now. I would, therefore, encourage Government to continue along those lines.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Quality!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to this debate and just like I said, this is not a controversial Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 20th March, 2008.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.  {mospagebreak}



VOTE 90 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – K23,247,578,589).
VOTE 91 – (Office of the President – Copperbelt Province – K30,939,825,707).
VOTE 92 – (Office of the President – Central Province – K21,672,442,535)
VOTE 93 – (Office of the President – Northern Province – K29,906,787,845)
VOTE 94 – (Office of the President – Western Province – K24,984,868,094)
VOTE 95 – (Office of the President – Eastern Province – K28,715,929,741)
VOTE 96 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – K23,618,447,062)
VOTE 97 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – K25,110,322,696)
VOTE 98 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – K30,902,564,973)

(Consideration resumed)

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, yesterday, when I debated, I very strongly lamented the fact that too much of the resources are being given to the centre. This is why we are congested in Lusaka that it is difficult to even move or drive. I also made the point that out of a budget of K13 trillion, only K238 billion is going to the provinces. This is totally unacceptable. We have to do better hon. Minister.

I am glad that last Friday, His Honour the Vice-President reaffirmed on the Floor of this House that Government is committed to the restocking of fisheries in the country. In Luapula, the economies have suffered because as you are aware, fishing is the major economic activity in those areas. It is important that Government should move in to restock.

Madam Chairperson, in Luapula Province we suffer from low voltage, poor quality electricity and as such power supply is quite intermittent. With the current situation of national load shedding, it is difficult to know when you are going to have power. It is extremely important hon. Minister that something must be done to improve the power supply situation. The issue of solar energy is also extremely important because there are some areas where you will not be able to take power through the main lines and it is important, therefore, that solar energy must be worked upon.

As regards the hon. Minister of Health who is not here, there is an unresolved issue of ambulances that were going to be distributed to provinces. In the case of Luapula Province, these ambulances have not been delivered and we are still waiting, we have not forgotten. We implore the hon. Minister that Luapula Province like any other province must get the ambulances that are due to it.

With regard to school infrastructure, I am happy that the hon. Minister of Education has now published a document called Infrastructure Development. I know that there are very few developments coming in certain areas of Luapula, particularly in my constituency. His promises are on record as having promised a high school to be built in that constituency since there is no high school, and I am looking forward to the next document to contain those developments.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: We cannot continue saying that we have more high schools or improved high schools when they are in Ndola, Copperbelt and Lusaka while these other areas have nothing. This is what is causing the influx of people to Lusaka and when there is an outbreak of diseases like cholera, everyone will just be dropping like locusts. Sir, I therefore, urge the hon. Ministers responsible to work closely with all the Members of Parliament and the Permanent Secretaries so that even the little that we have can be utilised effectively and efficiently. I hope the issue that I have talked about of pricing of fuel will be looked at very seriously by the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development so that people throughout Zambia can get some relief.

Finally, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that when you budget next time, look a little bit favourably at the outlying areas. There is just too much resources and I do not know what percentage of the budget is going to Lusaka. If we analyse this budget, you will find that a very considerable portion goes there.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order! Before I allow for further debate, I would like to make two appeals to you hon. Members of the Committee of Supply.

The first one is, we should keep order in the House and the second is that we have a lot of Business and, therefore, points of order may only be raised if it is a genuine point of order on procedure so that we use every minute and second to make progress.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Chairperson, I am very thankful to you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Mighty Southern Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the province, but with a few apprehensions.

I would like to begin by saying that the K30,092,564,973 allocated to the Province, considering the challenges it faces is, but a tip of an iceberg. It would have been more prudent for the hon. Executive Members on your right to actually double this figure for the following reasons.

Madam Chairperson, the Southern Province houses four of the most important economic hubs or sub-sectors of our economy with the first of them being energy. We all know that it is in the Southern Province, in Siavonga and Mazabuka Districts to be specific, although, commonly, we think that the Kafue Gorge is in the Lusaka Province, Kafue Gorge is in Chikankata Constituency in the Southern Province. It is, therefore, right to indicate and remind the House that the Southern Province becomes the engine of the development of this country. All the industries that are worthy to talk about, Madam Chairperson, could not perform to expectation if we did not have this particular part of our economic sector of energy coming out of the province.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I would like to also indicate that the second sector which is agriculture is another engine of development for our country and it is not a secret that aside from the adverse weather conditions that we have been suffering as a country, the Southern Province has always been known to be the food basket of this country.

Madam Chairperson, regarding tourism, it is also a fact that this sub-sector contributes the bulk of the output out of the Southern Province.

Lastly, but not the least, Madam Chairperson, the mines have now come to the Province. Having stated that, I would like to direct my little advice, although it is a little bit strange in my tradition to advise an old man, I will take this moment to say to our dear hon. Minister, Hon. Munkombwe, that this group of people you see on this end (UPND) are extremely cooperative people, but only if you can actually make efforts to move in …

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member may not speak directly to the hon. Minister, but through the Chair.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. Through you, I would like to give a little bit of counsel, although it is a little bit strange, to our hon. Provincial Minister. I want to emphasise what I just said that this group of people you see are very cooperative people if you just move in tandem with them. You can ask Hon. George Mpombo and he will tell you that you will enjoy your job alongside them.

I would like then to take this opportunity, through you again, Madam Chairperson, to advise the hon. Minister that there is time for everything. There is time for politicking and there is time for development. This is time for development and we would like to let him know that for as long as the development agenda that we believe in as UPND will be agenda item number one on his calendar, we will work very well with him.


Hon. UPND Member: After all he is UPND.

Mr Nkombo: Those were not my words, Madam Chairperson. I believe that if we look at the DNA test of the hon. Minister, we may find that what the hon. Members are saying may be gospel truth.


Mr Nkombo: However, that aside, Madam Chairperson, I would like to implore the hon. Minister to take a close look at the social-economic development of our people in the Southern Province who are resolute in what they believe in and for this particular moment they believe in the policies of the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I would like the hon. Minister to draw his attention to the health sector in the Province. As my elder brother, Hon. Machungwa said not long ago, we know that Government has made efforts to send ambulances to every district, but please, hon. Minister through the Chair, make it your business that these ambulances come to the district as quickly as possible.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: As the prime mover of development in the Province, I would like the hon. Minister to also make sure that all Government assurances in the Province are met timely. Madam Chairperson, we have a number of uncompleted projects and top on the list is the Bottom Road.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: When I went to look at the structural plan of the Kariba Dam, unfortunately, the map is on the Zimbabwean side. All hon. Members in the energy sector will bear with me that on the original structural plan of the construction of that Dam, there is a road that was meant to be built. That road, once done, through the efforts of the hon. Minister, is going to open up the Province further to development. I urge the hon. Minister not to relent. We all know that the national cake may be small as the Executive may say, but please, hon. Minister tie yourself with us.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Let us speak with one voice and when we get towards 2011 we can take your branch and go your way if you wish.

For this particular moment, through the Chair, I urge the hon. Minister to look also at the issue of cattle diseases. We the Tonga people of the Southern Province have always been proud about our heritage which is pastoral and agricultural.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, a Tonga person without an animal is like a person without clothes. What I would like to indicate here is that we have had difficulty with disease in this Province. We have also had promises from this Government to indicate that the cattle disease was going to be dealt with, first of all, by Government bringing brands. We told them that we could make brands out of Monze, Namwala and Mazabuka at the market. This Government indicated that they wanted to import brands in order to differentiate the origins of each animal and the district which it came from. Madam Chairperson, it has been eight months now and that promissory note has not been honoured. We have not seen the brands to make sure that we know whether this animal is from the Western Province or has crossed the cordon line and whether we can be able to monitor the stock movements.

Madam Chairperson, we have a completely impartial way of treating our people. I have in mind a huge beef company that is day in and day out bringing carcass to the market and yet our people are failing to sell their animals on account that there is a stock ban movement. That is our mainstay as Tonga people. If Government is not going to take deliberate steps to correct this problem, the UPND shall remain stronger and stronger and the malignance of its effects will spread countrywide. I would also like to indicate that the Auditor-General’s Report showed a lot of glaring anomalies regarding how they conducted business on the cattle restocking venture.

Madam Chair, we should walk our talk. It is quite insignificant to imagine that a whole Government can be praising itself with success and yet day in and day out when they go before the Public Accounts Committee, they fail to account for money. An amount of K1.6 billion went down the drain and they did a haphazard manner of restocking livestock.

This figure may appear big, but our colleagues from other provinces continue to question why only Southern Province has been given that allocation when it is clear that Government officers are the culprits because they have failed to make this programme work.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, we need to find out why, in the midst of all these anomalies, controlling officers are still enjoying their jobs. Those are the questions that the hon. Minister must investigate.

Madam, I would also like to comment on infrastructure because we have a difficult situation in the Southern Province regarding the Monze-Niko Road, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … the Choma-Namwala Road …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … and the Sinazongwe-Batoka Road. It is not sufficient for the Executive to simply terminate contracts of shoddy contractors.

Major Chizhyuka: That is a point!

Mr Nkombo: Sinazongwe-Batoka Road, is a scandal. It has been shown on television that a contractor, who did not have equipment was working with a disfunctional wheelbarrow, was given a contract to …


Mr Nkombo: … place culverts on a very economic road, Madam Chairperson, such as the road that leads to Mamba Coal Mine.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge our hon. Minister to amalgamate all his efforts and work with us. I can assure him that there will be nothing impossible because united we stand and divided we fall.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I would also like to indicate that, on the mining and labour fronts, the province has continued to suffer casualisation of labour.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The Zambia Sugar Company has emulated this Government by casualising labour. The Chinese Miners in Sinazongwe have also emulated this Government by casualising labour. The Government should be leading by example. They must allow people to be pensionable so that they look forward to going to work the next day and not to live for just that moment.

Madam Chairperson, two days ago, in my constituency, one mine just laid off in excess of 120 workers after using them for over a period of one year. That is illegal. I believe that casualisation is permitted only up to a certain number of days. Once someone works for a period of more than one year, in my view, they must be given a pension number.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to urge our hon. Minister to look into the issue of feeder roads in our province. That is the only get-way to getting our people out of squalor. The hon. Minister should also look at the infrastructure development of storage spaces for food. When His Excellence the President came to Mazabuka, I am glad to report through you, Madam Chairperson, that the hon. Minister was there, although at that time, he was just a Provincial Chairperson for the MMD. The Head of State indicated that the food in the warehouses was going bad. I am sure he remembers that and I am not politicking. Please, hon. Minister, let join hands with all your hon. Members of Parliament here because they travel much more than you will ever do in the province. Get feedback from them and let us act together.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate the Budget lines for the North-Western Province.

Madam, allow me, through you, to recognise the fact that Government has accepted North-Western Province as a growth area. In this regard, I would like to thank Government of the Republic of Zambia for the things that have happened in the North-Western Province, particularly, in the area of mining. As has already been alluded to, in Chavuma, there is oil and gas while copper and uranium are being mined at Kansanshi and Lumwana mines, respectively.

I would also like to thank Government for supporting the Mutanda-Chavuma Road. The Mutanda-Chavuma Road has been known to be tarred during the reign of the New Deal Government. It has just come to our attention that the first segment of this road is closing up to Mufumbwe. We hope that with the K37 billion budget allocation we have received this year, it will be possible to move this project forward to, at least, Kabompo. We also understand that, in fact, Government has already commissioned the feasibility studies to ensure that the last leg of this road is covered. For this, I say thank you very much to the New Deal Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson, through you, I would also like to thank Government for buying houses for police officers in Solwezi District. This is commendable as you know that a lot of Members of Parliament lamented the fact that our police officers are living in deplorable conditions. This is one area in which the New Deal Government is demonstrating recognition of the security that these men and women in uniform provide to our country. We thank you, hon. Minister, for that gesture.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: May I also thank Government for the unity that is maintained in the North-Western Province. I can rest assure you that the hon. Members of Parliament from the North-Western Province are one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: We operate as a team.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: This is commendable for development to take effect.

Madam Chairperson, through the various assurances that have been given on the Floor of this House by the hon. Ministers of Lands, Labour and Social Security and Mines and Minerals Development that they are going to establish offices in Solwezi in view of the mining activities that are taking place in the area, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … indeed, we realise that mining is important. Therefore, it is our appeal that as we do this, we must ensure that the office to deal with mining and minerals development in the area is established.

With regard to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, I have had discussions with the hon. Minister who has affirmed that the labour office in Solwezi District is going to be expanded and upgraded to the level of principal so that this officer can be able to handle the various industrial relations and human resource matters that will emerge as a result of mining activities. We would like to commend Government for this gesture.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, I would also like to state and acknowledge, publicly, the work that is being done by the World Vision Zambia Limited in the North-Western Province and Solwezi West Constituency, in particular.

In this area, this organisation is doing a commendable job. They are improving the infrastructure of schools, clinics, roads and bridges. In the New Deal Government, we mean what we say that we are providing an enabling environment where the private sector will partner with Government to bring forward the development prospects that we are talking about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, this is commendable and I would like through you, to inform the other NGOs elsewhere in the country to take the example of World Vision International in the Musere area of my constituency.

Madam, the North-Western Province was known as Cinderella Province. The rest of the administrations, which I do not want to name, history is there to prove that not much development took place. I can undertake to assure you that under the New Deal Administration, a number of issues have immerged and undertaken.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, many people are now saying they are friends of the North-Western Province but where were they? We now would like to know them so that we can join hands and work for the development of our country. I know for certain that people have been complaining that the project of Mutanda/Chavuma Road has taken long but this project, as I have already said, has been segmented and I am sure by the year 2011, we are likely to see a different picture.

Madam, as Government, we are also working very actively in the North-Western Province to ensure that some aspects at border levels, some infrastructure is put up. I am particularly referring to the border between Angola and Zambia at Chavuma. This is the border between Angola and Zambia in the North. We are hoping that the new good listening Government will do everything possible to ensure that some infrastructure is built so that we have the comparisons of Nakonde and Chirundu because heavy traffic will soon be traveling on those roads.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I support the budget allocation.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this debate. From the outset, when we talk about provinces, by and large, we are referring to rural areas.

The first statement that I wish to make is that in this country, there is need for equity in development. Rural areas by the day are lagging behind and that is why when you look at the growth as indicated in the Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to this House, you will see that even as we have growth in the whole country, in rural areas, that growth is very minimal. That is why the poverty levels in rural areas are much higher.

Madam Chairperson, when you compare urban areas with rural areas, you will notice that the schools in rural areas, most of them are in deplorable state. You have mad and pole schools. Health facilities, in most cases are non-existent. Roads are in bad shape and certainly there are no social facilities of any kind.

Madam, in my view to address these issues, we need some kind of a national plan as a country and I estimate the amount of money required to begin to address the issues of chronic under development in areas will require something like US$2 billion which is K8 trillion. If we have this sort of money, we will then be able to undertake the work that is necessary to lighten the burden on the lives of those who reside in rural areas. With this money available, all roads in this country need to be serviced by hard surface roads, either good gravel roads or tar roads. That is necessary. We also need to link all provinces by tar roads. That is why if you look at North-Western Province, Western Province, Luapula Province, Northern Province, Eastern Province and Northern Province for example, these need to be linked by tar roads. These things can happen as long as you have a mini-national plan.

Madam, when we look at issues of education in rural areas, it is necessary that for lower basic schools, these be within 2 kilometres of any child alive. For the middle basic schools, these need to be within 3 kilometres and indeed the basic schools, in my view, ought to be within 5 kilometres. It is too ambitious to say that within every 10 kilometres of any child, there should be a high school. These should be schools that are properly equipped with all sorts of facilities such as laboratory facilities and sporting facilities and also manned by well trained professional teachers.

Madam Chairperson, the rural areas need to be well equipped with health facilities like clinics or hospitals. For clinics, it is prudent to ensure that within 5 kilometres, there is a well equipped and well manned clinic. There should also be a hospital within 25 kilometre radius with doctors and lab facilities. One area that we are neglecting is that of HIV/AIDS in rural areas in provinces.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam, we need to target these areas and fight the spread of HIV/AIDS in these areas.

Madam Chairperson, on the economic front, we need to come up with plans to uplift the living standards of our people by creating economic zones. I was talking at break time with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning but my own view is that we should transform all our rural areas into economic free zones so that those that have capital to take and create industries in the rural areas must have tax exemption facilities so that that would encourage the movement of capital from the investors from urban areas into rural areas.

Madam Chairperson, we should also seek to create strategic advantage for each and every one of our provinces. Look at Western Province, there should be a focus on getting economic value out of cattle keeping and rice. Luapula should be fish and the development of hydro-electric schemes. I have said on the Floor of this House that Luapula River alone has potential to generate 2000 Mega Watts which is enough to feed the whole of this country. Eastern Province is agro industry, Southern Province is cattle, tourism and hydro, Northern Province is tourism and North-Western Province is mining and agro and also dancing Shonongo. In Central Province, it is agro and Copperbelt should be agro and gemstone industries but there are impediments to this.

Madam, one of the greatest impediments as was stipulated by hon. Member for Luapula is that of non-uniform pricing of fuel and yet, in 2006, on the Floor of this House, the then hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, Hon. Mutati promised that the ministry was working on plans to introduce uniform pricing for fuel.

It can be done. I would like to assure people that electricity has got transport costs. It is called transmission cost and yet, in this country, we have a uniform pricing for electricity. Therefore, if we can do it for electricity, because it is in the same Ministry, we can do it for fuel. At the moment, it is very expensive to travel and do business within provinces. I have to address those issues on the national scale because of my position.


Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I would now like to move on to the Western Province, which is rated the poorest province …

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair believes that every point made in this House is important, therefore, if hon. Members do not want to follow the debate, they should sit back and think rather than talk. It is difficult to concentrate on what is being talked about. Hon. Members have been told that there is this filtering and it is very difficult. Can we, reduce on the consultations.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, according to the statistics from Government, Western Province is the poorest by far, and yet, it was not always so. Before the advent of the white man, it was probably one of the most developed provinces. By 1964, it had moved to number four position, behind provinces like Southern, Central and Copperbelt, which were on the line of rail. However, even at the advent of the New Deal Administration in 2001, the province was not the least developed but number eight with the North Western Province behind it. Now, it is number nine, and the gap between itself and the next province is getting larger. Kalabo District is by far the poorest.

Madam Chairperson, there is need to focus on developing the province for the sake of creating equity in development. The greatest wealth creating potential in the province is cattle. However, I gave figures on how the cattle numbers have gone down. Diseases like Contagious Bovine Pleural Pneumonia (CPBB), Foot and Mouth and liver fluke have decimated the cattle population. It was not always like this.

At break time, I had a brief chat with Professor Lungwangwa, who reminded me that even in the colonial days, for every cattle keeping village, there used to be days when surrounding villages would bring their cattle together and have vaccinations, dipping and so on. As a result of that, diseases were evaded. Now, we are ruling our country, especially, our colleagues on your right Madam Chairperson, why have we lost the will to develop our country? We have shown that by not doing such things, the cattle population of Western Province has reduced from 1.5 million to 500,000. The same applies to Southern Province. These diseases can be controlled, but we need the will to do that.

Madam Chairperson, another area of great potential in the province is that of rice growing. The Fertiliser Support Programme, which is touted as the number one programme for the New Deal Administration is ineffective in Western Province. Only Kaoma District grows maize. The rest of the province grows a lot of rice and keep a lot of cattle but we need similar programmes to support the peasant farmers in those areas. 

We need canals to be drained so that we can have more of land available for agriculture and transport. We need dredgers to clear these canals and to also create new canals because the canals in the province are those left by the Great King Lewanika. In terms of infrastructure, the Western Province must be accepted as different because of its sandy terrain …

Major Chibamba: Unique.

Mr Milupi: It is unique because of its sandy terrain and therefore, makes it very expensive to travel within the province. For a start, you need 4X4 Wheel Drive vehicles, which are very are expensive to buy and maintain, and the fuel usage is much higher.

Madam Chairperson, there should be a great amount of dedication to create hard surface roads within the province so that …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)




The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1918 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 20th March, 2008.