Debates - Thursday, 10th December, 2015

Publication Type: 

Thursday, 10th December, 2015

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____________ 

RULINGS BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR J. J. MWIIMBU, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MONZE CENTRAL CONSTITUENCY ON MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE, HUMAN RIGHTS, GENDER MATTERS AND CHILD AFFAIRS WHO VOTED AGAINST THEIR REPORTS

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Thursday, 26th November, 2015, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 189 and the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala Parliamentary Constituency, Mr M.Simfukwe, was about to ask a supplementary question, the Member of Parliament for Monze Central Constituency, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, raised a point of order on some members of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. 

In his point of order, Hon. Mwiimbu wanted to know whether some members of the Committee were in order to have voted against their reports on the Constitution of Zambia Bill, No. 16 of 2015, and the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 17 of 2015, respectively. In my immediate remarks, I reserved my ruling to enable me to study the point of order.  I have since done so and now render the ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order raises the issue of whether it is in order for a member of a Committee tasked to consider a Bill after its First Reading in the House to vote against the recommendations of the Committee on the Bill.

Hon. Members, Standing Order No. 103(2), which deals with reports on Bills referred to Committees and is instructive on this matter, states as follows:

“103(2). When a Bill has been reported by a Committee, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as reported from the Committee.”

This means that once a Committee presents its report to the House on the Bill, the House proceeds to consider the Bill as presented by the mover of the Bill, in this case, the hon. Minister of Justice. The report of the Committee on the Bill, therefore, is not the subject of discussion, but is merely used to assist the House understand the ramifications of the Bill.  Hon. Members will recall that this was the spirit of the parliamentary reforms that introduced the system of referring Bills to Committees. Therefore, although the Committee’s report is referred to in debating the Bill, the subject of debate still remains the Bill, not the report. It is for this reason that no Motion is moved on the Floor of the House to adopt such a report and no question is put to the House to adopt it. The question put to the House following the debate is whether the Bill should be read for the second time. This procedure is clearly distinguishable from the one used to adopt a report of a Select or Portfolio Committee, in which the subject of the debate on the Floor of the House is the report. In such an instance, a Motion is moved on the Floor of the House by the Chairperson of the Committee to adopt the report and a question is put to the House in that regard. It is such a report that requires the support of all the members of the Committee in accordance with Standing Order No. 145(3), which stipulates as follows: 

 “No member of a Select or Portfolio Committee shall dissent from or vote against the recommendations of his or her own report.”

In view of the provision I have referred to above, the members of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs who voted in favour of the Constitutional Bills proceeding to the second reading stage were not out of order.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Nevertheless, I wish to emphasise that the reports of Committees on Bills are important, as they assist the hon. Members of the House in understanding the salient issues of the Bills and the areas of concern so that relevant amendments can be proposed, if need be, at the appropriate juncture.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda:Wabeja Jack Mwiimbu!

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. L. J. NGOMA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SINDA CONSTITUENCY, ON PERCEIVED BIAS OF THE HOUSE

Hon. Members, my second ruling is on the point of order raised by Mr L. J. Ngoma, hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda Constituency.

Hon. Members will recall that on Friday, 27th November, 2015, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 190 and the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza Constituency, Mr A. D. Mbewe, was about to ask a supplementary question, the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda Constituency, Mr L. J. Ngoma, raised a point of order asking whether the House was in order to demonstrate bias by, on one day, chasing the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency, Mr D. Livune, from the House for misconduct and, on another day, allowing the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting, Mr C. Kambwili, to remain in the House when he had committed a similar offence. In my immediate response, I reserved my ruling to a later date to enable me to render a measured ruling on the issue. I have since studied the point of order and now render the ruling. 

Hon. Members, Hon. L. J. Ngoma’s point of order, in essence, alleges that I mete out disciplinary actions in a partial manner. Consequently, the point of order not only cast aspersions on my impartiality, as Speaker of the House, but also directly challenged my decision. In this regard, I would like to point out that our rules, in particular, Standing Order No. 61, clearly sets out the manner in which an hon. Member who is dissatisfied with a decision of the Chair can challenge it. For avoidance of doubt, let me quote the Standing Order:

“61(1) Subject to Standing Order sixty-two, any member who wishes to challenge the decision of the Chair shall do so by moving a substantive motion. 

(2) The substantive motion referred to in paragraph (1) may not be debated in the House unless the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services has so resolved that it be tabled before the House.”

Hon. Members, beyond our rules, parliamentary practice and procedure, as expounded by renowned parliamentary writers, is also very clear on the subject of casting aspersions on the Speaker and challenging his or her decisions. For example, a well-known author, Erskine May, in his book titled Parliamentary Practice, 22nd Edition, states as follows on page 123: 

“Reflections on the character of the Speaker or accusations of partiality in the discharge of his duties and similar charges against the Chairman of Ways and Means have attracted penal powers of the Commons.”

He further states, on page 190, that:

“Reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege. His action cannot be criticised incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except as a substantive motion.”

Hon. Members, from Erskine May’s assertion, it is clear that the Speaker and other Presiding Officers occupy an exalted position and must be treated with respect and deference. Any statement or conduct in the House reflecting adversely on them, either directly or indirectly, amounts to contempt of the House. I emphasise that the decisions of the Speaker and other Presiding Officers can be challenged. However, there are rules on how that may be done. As clearly provided for by Standing Order No. 61, an hon. Member who wishes to challenge the decision of the Chair must do so through a substantive Motion. Therefore, any attempt by an hon. Member to use a point of order to challenge the Chair’s decision is unprocedural. It, therefore, goes without saying that in raising a point of order that questioned my impartiality and, in essence, challenged my decision, the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda Constituency was patently out of order. 

Let me hasten to point out that we, the Presiding Officers, have discretionary powers to mete out disciplinary actions. In doing so, we are judicious, based, on the facts of the conduct of the hon. Members in the House. 

Hon. Members given the guidance above, it is my earnest hope that, in the future, an hon. Member desiring to challenge any decision of a Presiding Officer will not do so through a point of order because such conduct is a punishable breach of privilege. Instead, such challenge should be mounted within the parameters of Standing Order 61, as explained above.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, there is another point of order on which I was supposed to render a ruling. Unfortunately, I am unable to do so simply because some of the information that I require to make the ruling has to be obtained from external sources. However, my staff are in the process of obtaining that information and, as soon as it is availed to me and I have studied it, I will, in due course, render the ruling. 

Thank you. 

___________ 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

2015 GRADE 7 COMPOSITE EXAMINATION RESULTS

The Minister of General Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a statement on the 2015 Grade 7 Examination Results. 

Sir, … 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Phiri: … the 2015 Grade 7 Examinations were written from Monday, 12th October, 2015, to Friday, 16th October, 2015, and the selection of the 2016 Grade 8 candidates was completed on 26th November, 2015. In this regard, I ask the House to join me in commending the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ) and my ministry for the timely release of the results, which will allow those who have been selected to progress to Grade 8 …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Dr Phiri: … to begin learning on the first day of the next school calendar. 

Mr Speaker, my statement is divided into four parts, namely, the candidates of the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examination, overall performance of the candidates, analysis of performance at the provincial and district levels and a comment on incidences of malpractices. 

Interruptions

Dr Phiri: On the candidates, …

Mr Speaker: Just a moment, hon. Minister. 

Hon. Members, there are too many conversations going on. Please, let us pay attention to the hon. Minister.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, 383,676 pupils entered for the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examination, compared with 367,967 in 2014, representing an increase of 4.46 per cent. Of the 383,676 candidates, 195,584 or about 50.98 per cent were boys while 188,092 or about 49.02 per cent were girls. Further, of the 383,676 pupils who entered for the examination, 344,516 sat the examination. Of the 344,516 candidates, 176,440 or 51.20 per cent were boys while 168,076 or 48.80 per cent were girls. Of the 39,160 pupils who did not sit for the examinations, 19,144 were boys while 20,061 were girls. The absenteeism rate, therefore, was 10.21 per cent, representing an increase of 0.69 per cent on the 9.52 per cent recorded in 2014. 

Mr Speaker, three provinces, namely, Luapula, the North-Western and Western, recorded marginal reductions in absenteeism. The Western Province recorded the highest rate of absenteeism, at 13.20 per cent, while the Southern Province recorded the lowest rate, at 7.81 per cent. 

Mr Speaker, it must be noted that there has been a 4 per cent annual increase in the number of candidates since 2013. This is attributable to the expansion of space through the construction of classrooms countrywide. While various stakeholders have contributed to this expansion, allow me to single out the hon. Members of Parliament who invested part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in the sub-sector and blessed the children of Zambia in many ways. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, it is important, however, for me to point out that despite the steady increase in the number of candidates, the high rate of absenteeism has negatively impacted on the gains made. The major causes of absenteeism, as revealed by a study on learner absenteeism from public examinations conducted by the ECZ in 2013, include early marriages and teenage pregnancies for girls and engagement in household income-generating activities, such as cattle herding, farming, fishing and vending for boys. The absenteeism rates for both boys and girls are further compounded by teacher absenteeism from lessons in some schools. To address the challenge of learner absenteeism from public examinations, the ministry has made a number of interventions, including the stepping up of the School Feeding Programme, intensification of the internal monitoring of teacher and learner attendance, enhancement of the school guidance and counselling services, and continuous engagement of community and traditional leaders to encourage parents to send their children to school and keep them in the system to the end. However, despite all the interventions being made to improve access to quality education, we, in the ministry, are aware that there are still challenges we face, but we are committed to partnering with all stakeholders to overcome them.  

Mr Speaker, the performance of the candidates who sat for the examinations was as follows:

Certificate Division    Boys        Girls    Combined 

Division 1    33,313 (18.88%)    30,638 (18.23%)    63,951(18.56%)

Division 2    43,451 (24.63%)    39,711 (23.63%)    83,162 (24.14%)

Division 3    31,010 (17.58%)    28,166 (16.76%)    59,176 (17.18%)

Division 4     68,666 (38.92%)    69,561 (41.39%)    138,227 (40.12%)

Total    176,440    168,076    344,516

Mr Speaker, the table above shows that 206,289 candidates obtained Divisions 1, 2 and 3, representing 59.9 per cent of the total number of candidates, while 138,227 candidates obtained Division 4, representing 40.1 per cent. It is gratifying to note that the trend is that of improvement in the proportion of candidates obtaining Divisions 2 and 3. The results also indicated that boys performed better than girls in all the subjects except English. To the 40.1 per cent of candidates who obtained Division 4 Certificates, my ministry will extend the catch-up strategies being implemented at the secondary school level to the primary level so that the proportion of candidates who obtain this grade is further reduced.

Sir, in terms of performance by district and province, the 2015 National Mean Scorewas 611.26, compared with last year’s 611.12. The national mean is calculated on the basis of the composite score of all candidates in the country divided by the number of candidates.The ranking of the districts’ performance shows that thirty-one out of the 102 districts and four provinces out of ten scored above the national mean.The provinces that scored above the national mean are Lusaka, the Copperbelt, the Eastern and the Southern.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I am laying three important documents on the Table, namely, the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examination District and Provincial Performance Ranking and Selection Statistics, and the Highlights of the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examination Results Statistics. The two documents have also been availed to each hon. Member of Parliament through the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly to enable the hon. Members to interrogate the results and statistics further. The documents will, no doubt, make hon. Members of Parliament understand better the challenges faced at the provincial and district levels so that they can help the ministry to better the performance of our children. 

Mr Speaker, I directed all Provincial Educational Officers (PEOs) in provinces where the provincial and district mean scoreswere below the national meanto enhance the implementation of learner performance improvement strategies in all schools in their provinces. In this regard, I will value the assistance of hon. Members of Parliament so that, together, we can celebrate the provision of quality education as soon as possible.

Sir, in terms of progression to Grade 8, of the 344,516 pupils who sat for the 2015 Grade 7 Examinations, 310,230 have been selected to Grade 8, representing a national progression rate of 90.05 per cent compared with 90.02 per cent in 2014. Of the 310,230 selected, 155,878 were boys while 154,352 were girls, representing progression rates of 88.35 per cent for boys and 91.83 per cent for girls, respectively. 

Mr Speaker, Central and the Western provinces recorded 100 per cent progression rates for both boys and girls while Luapula Province recorded a 100 per cent progression rate for girls only. Of the 34,286 candidates who were not selected to progress to Grade 8, 20,562 were boys while 13,724 were girls. My ministry will ensure that the unselected candidates are absorbed into the open learning classes and schools for continuing education scattered around the country. Additionally, some of them will be swallowed by the private schools while others may still find space in the mainstream schools.

Sir, the marginal improvement in the ....

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

Dr Phiri: … national progression rate is attributable to the classroom space that has been created at the secondary school level. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government will continue to focus on providing adequate and appropriate facilities to our learners to ensure that they have the opportunity to access all levels of education. In this regard, the ministry has committed itself to completing all infrastructure projects. Of the 115 projects the ministry embarked on, forty-four are operational while thirty will be operational by January, 2016. In 2016, we will endeavour to complete the other forty-one projects. In addition, at least, 220 primary schools, twenty-two in each province, were or are being upgraded to secondary school status in 2015. These are managed as combined schools running from Grade 1 to Grade 12. Therefore, no child has been displaced during the upgrading process.

Mr Speaker, during the administration of the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examinations, there was no reported leakage of examination question papers. However, four cases of candidates smuggling unauthorised materials into examination rooms were reported. The results for the culprits have been withheld, pending resolution by the appropriate committee of the ECZ. In this regard, I applaud the tireless efforts of all stakeholders in ensuring that we had another leakage-free examination. Members of the public are reminded that examination malpractices of whatever extent or form remain punishable by law. Therefore, I specifically warn all potential offenders that they will be dealt with accordingly.

Mr Speaker, let me further inform this august House that the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examination Results were officially released on 3rd December, 2015. However, school authorities only started issuing them out on Monday, 7th December, 2015. The opening day for the 2016 Grade 8 classes is 11th January, 2016. A grace period of ten working days, up to 22nd January, 2016, has been given within which all the Grade 8 pupils are expected to report to school. Those who will not have reported by the end of the grace period will forfeit their places and will be replaced accordingly.  

Sir, I pay tribute to the ministry staff at all levels, the council and staff of the ECZ, the teachers’ unions, law enforcement agencies and all stakeholders who ensured that the 2015 Grade 7 Composite Examination Results were released in good time. I also commend our head teachers and teachers for their endurance and perseverance, and for producing these results. 

Sir, the nation expects better results from all our teachers, which is only possible if they concentrate on growing professionally and refraining from partisan politics. After all, the children they serve are of parents whose political affiliations cut across the whole political spectrum. So, I urge our teachers to resist being involved in partisan politics and concentrate on improving their professional status. 

Sir, the nation salutes the teachers and so do I.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by the hon. Minister of General Education. 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement and the recorded progress. I also join him in congratulating the teachers for a job well done. They say that the only people who are not political are the dead. 

Mr Muntangalaughed.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, when will this Patriotic Front (PF) Government complete the migration of the education system from the basic/high school setup, which was left by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), to the primary/secondary school system in accordance with the pronouncement that it made as soon as it came into power? I believe that if the migration had been completed, the results that the hon. Minister just announced may have been even better, as the PF’s rationale for coming up with the policy was to improve pupils’ performance.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Nkombo for the compliments and for joining me in paying tribute to our teachers. 

Sir, let me say that the PF Manifesto is very clear on our wish to return the education system to the primary/secondary school setup. However, the high number of basic schools that we inherited and the allocation of inadequate resources to the programme to convert them have made things difficult. What has made things even more difficult was the fact that the education sector was operating with two policy documents, namely, Educating Our Future and the Education Act of 2011. So, we needed to review the two documents. Unfortunately, that review has taken us a bit of time. As I speak, the two documents are still in draft form and are being worked on further. However, that does not mean that the party’s focus has been diminished on this matter. We hope, if people will give us another mandate, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: … we will complete the journey by translating our manifesto into reality. We have not abandoned it at all.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that statement, especially since he says that there were no examination leakages. However, most schools in Mpongwe lack teachers because the teachers have been transferred to schools closer to town and that has made the pupils to perform badly. Additionally, the teachers who left those schools have remained on the payrolls of their original schools. Is the hon. Minister considering directing the Provincial Education Officers (PEOs) and District Education Standards Officers (DESOs) to send the teachers back to their original schools? 

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the dilemma that we find ourselves in is very visible countrywide. So, the establishment needs to be revisited soon. For example, Lusaka has 200 excess teachers who may have moved from rural areas and are still using the Personnel Administrative Measures (PAM) vacancies in the rural schools. So, suffice it for me to assure Hon. Namulambe that the question of the establishment is under serious consideration and that I have been assured by my officers in the Human Resource and Administration Directorate that progress is being made. Soon, we will make an announcement to the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, as a former teacher, my worry is over the pupils who have not made it to Grade 8.  Is there any mechanism that the ministry is putting in place to track them down in order for the Government to assist them in one way or another?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the mechanism is there. I think that I stated that we have asked the Directorate of Open and Distance Learning to see how it can mop up the pupils who have not been selected. Let me hasten to point out that the number of pupils who have not been selected to proceed to Grade 8 is tentative. By January, 2016, some of the 344,516 pupils would found their way back into the mainstream while others will be swallowed by the private sector. That is why we have overcrowded them. For those who will still remain after that, the directorate has been mandated to help them continue with their education.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, which schools contributed the highest number to the 63,951 pupils who got Division 1 Certificates between Government and private primary schools, taking into consideration the higher teacher/pupil ratio in Government primary schools?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, we deliberately laid on the Table two documents that contain the information sought by the hon. Member and I said that all hon. Members of Parliament will get a copy of each so that they are informed on the trends. It should be obvious even to him that the private schools have done better, followed by the mission schools. In fact, this time around, at the Grade 7 level, even the community schools performed better than Government ones. So, they are third while Government schools are fourth. Given this scenario, we are making amends in Government schools so that they can compete favourably with the other school categories. We are working on the factors that compromise performance, especially in Government schools, chiefly a lack of teaching and learning materials.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told us that the progression rate in the Western Province is 100 per cent, which creates the impression that there is good progress in terms of educating our future. However, the children who have all progressed were in schools where one or two teachers handled all the classes from Grade 1 to Grade 7 and will go into schools where the situation is the same for Grade 8 and Grade 9. Is the hon. Minister satisfied that the 100 per cent progression rate in the Western Province is real?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, yes, I mentioned that the Western and Central provinces had 100 per cent progression rates, which simply meant that all the children progressed to the next level in the two provinces. It does not mean that the Government is satisfied with the standards of learning in the two provinces because there is still a lot of work to be done. To that effect, I have instructed Provincial Educational Officers (PEOs) to think outside the box a little because Western Province is unique and needs very innovative ways of looking at the challenges it is facing. That is what I will pursue in the provinces where the challenges so obvious that we cannot use the same conventional ways of addressing them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, when the hon. Minister was winding up his statement, he intimated that teachers should desist from engaging in politics. Similar sentiments were recently ventilated by the hon. Minister of Higher Education, Dr Kaingu, who is on record threatening teachers to stop supporting opposition political parties while in the Western Province. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mweetwa: A few days ago, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs also issued a similar statement at a function of one of the security wings, threatening the defence and security personnel who engaged in active politics to resign. Such sentiments have also been ventilated by President Lungu, and such statements seem to be escalating as we move towards the 2016 General Elections. Is that a damming indictment on the Patriotic Front (PF) Government? Has the party accepted that, generally, the Civil Service is highly dissatisfied with this Government’s poor service delivery to the country?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I am rarely provoked by political rhetoric.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: However, this is taking things too far. So, let me say that as the custodian of the education system up to the teacher training, I would like all the stakeholders in the political game to leave our teachers alone.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, the consequences of polluting the teaching profession are too ghastly for me to contemplate. Teachers do not handle children of opposition or the ruling party members only. So, let them show professionalism. They should not be mistaken for mere cadres because they are professional men and women who went to college and were awarded certificates, diplomas or degrees for the purpose of serving the children of Zambia, not political parties.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Phiri: Sir, hon. Members should not question the President’s advice because it was made in good faith by the custodian all of us in Zambia. Instead, they should support the President because he means well for everybody.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, if the hon. Member quoted Hon. Dr Kaingu correctly, then, Hon. Dr Kaingu was very right to say what he said in the Western Province. Given the same opportunity, I would have said the same. I, therefore, advise my colleagues to desist from adding the political burden on the shoulders of teachers, who are doing a wonderful job under difficult circumstances. Let us leave them alone to concentrate on growing professionally because we need professionally and academically advanced teachers.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, indeed, the Western Province is unique. The two documents show that Lukulu is the least performing district, at 107th, while Mitete is ranked ninety-second. Further, the hon. Minister said that absenteeism was high in the Western Province, which is painful. Among the reasons given for that challenge, the hon. Minister mentioned the non-implementation of the School Feeding Programme. Can he assure me that the programme will be introduced in Mitete so that our pupils can perform better? How come we performed the worst?

 Laughter

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I am also wondering why Lukulu and Mitete performed that poorly. Let me just say that the reason I tabled a special document on the performance of each district and province is precisely to provoke discussion. So, if hon. Members of Parliament cannot discuss these matters at the provincial level, they should do so at the district level so that they can help the Government to perform better in the education sector. Yesterday, I indicated to this House that the School Feeding Programme had been extended to more schools and the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu West wrote me a note asking when the programme would be introduced in Mitete, but I did not respond to him because I knew that I would respond to it today.

Mr Speaker, more money has been allocated to the School Feeding Programme in the current Budget so that the Government can show seriousness. All along, the World Food Programme (WFP) has carried this burden. So, it is my hope that the additional money will enable more schools, particularly those from the rural areas, to benefit from a more vigorous and better run programme. The children of Zambia in the rural areas need that food which, if provided, will end sexism, increase concentration, and give more confidence to the children and make them like school more. So, the hon. Member’s plea has not fallen on deaf ears. We will do what we can and, where we will fail, we will inform the House to that effect. This Government listens to the people.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the responses from the hon. Minister have reminded me of a person known as Walter Phiri, a very troublesome student and lecturer at the University of Zambia (UNZA) who also helped a certain political party to write its manifesto. 

Sir, the hon. Minister used the phrase ‘political rhetoric’ and stated that the Government will not change the education system. However, the Education Act clearly spells out that there should be community schools, primary schools, which are currently basic schools, and secondary schools. Is he, therefore, admitting that his Government has failed to reform the structure of the education system or issue a statutory instrument (SI) on that policy in the five years that it has been in power?

Mr Miyutu: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, God works in mysterious ways and, when he does, people are left wondering.

Mr Mwiimbu: UNZASU President.

Dr Phiri: Yes, I was once President-General of the University of Zambia Students Union (UNZASU). Maybe, God was preparing me for my current position. However, that should not be used to demonise or praise me now. That is the past. The present reality is that the PF is totally in charge of the education system.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, all I was saying is that there was a lapse in changing the education policy in Zambia. If the PF Government had the power to change the laws instantly, we would have done it. However, we have a bureaucracy that must be given ample time to reflect on the policies. We did the best we could under the circumstances. Apart from reviewing the Education Act of 2011 and Educating Our Future, we were rather limited. However, we hope that the two documents will find space in the PF’s new setup by next year. 

Sir, the PF has not run away from its responsibilities. We can reproduce the part on education in our manifesto that was used to sell the party and we will still receive a positive assessment by our people because the people have seen what we are capable of doing even with the limited space that we had. I also know that they cannot be swayed because they know that the PF has done a lot for the younger generation, which will be far better off than the present generation of people that does not appreciate what others do.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Sir, the fact that the law has not yet been changed and the amendments that many people submitted to your Committee on Education, Science and Technology have not been presented to this House means that the Government is running an illegal system.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: Could the hon. Minister consider issuing an SI to remedy this anomaly as we wait for the amendments to be presented to this House.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Dr Kalila, who was once Chairperson of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology, …

Laughter

Dr Phiri: … for his comments. I have a lot of confidence in him. However, I wish to remind him that our tenure ends next year, after which we will seek another mandate. So, we will still present the amendment Bill and, if the process will be slow, we will issue a statutory instrument (SI). If we have done something wrong, we will make amends.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, there is a high rate of teacher absenteeism in rural areas because teachers opt to stay in the towns nearest their schools. For example, those who teach at Mulofwa, Nsaka and Miputu primary schools in Masaiti stay in Luanshya. Additionally, there are no nursery schools in such areas. Is the hon. Minister considering lowering the cut-off point for pupils in rural areas relative to that of pupils in urban areas?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, we have not yet considered that option. So, we cannot give the hon. Member a more concrete answer just yet. However, some hon. Members of Parliament have accused the ministry of running two parallel education systems. So, we may be reluctant to implement the hon. Member’s proposal, although it is worth exploring.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister and I went to Chizongwe Secondary School.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Same year.

Mr Speaker: Same school.

Mr Mbewe: Sir, I congratulate the teachers in the Eastern Province, particularly those in Chadiza, because it is difficult to work in that district. I also commend the parents for sending their children to school and the pupils for the good performance because the province has a good ranking in the country. This has not been the case previously, but they have now fared very well under Hon. Dr Phiri’s and Hon. Dr Kaingu’s leadership. What has caused this upward trend in the performance this year?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, it is true that Hon. Mbewe and I went to the same school, but at very different times.

Laughter

Dr Phiri: I think that I went to the school long before Hon. Mbewe was born.

Laughter

Dr Phiri: That clarification made, I thank him for the compliments. 

Sir, I think that the secret to the improved performance has been the leadership at the provincial level. I was also very impressed with the performance of the pupils in the Eastern Province because it was beyond my expectations. When I was invited to launch the strategic plan for the province, I commended all the stakeholders in education in the province. However, I must mention that all the provinces, not only the Eastern Province, have strategic plans. 

Sir, let me also take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Vubwi …

Ms Miti: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: … Constituency because Vubwi, a new district, was ranked fourth in the country while Chadiza was ranked fifteenth, which is commendable. This shows that where there is innovative leadership, it is possible to turn things around. So, I will work with the officers in the under-performing provinces to turn things around. That is why I have written to all the affected PEOs asking them to show why the performance in their provinces was poor, and that they must come up with innovative strategies to improve the performance of pupils in provinces and districts under their charge.Otherwise, we have no panacea from the headquarters. We do not have one cure for all the problems in all the provinces. We must look at how we can change the fortunes of our children in each province.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, first of all, I also congratulate all the teachers on the effort they put in ensuring that our pupils perform well. Secondly, I wish to state that Kazungula District has over 120 schools that offload pupils from Grade 7 every year, but has very few secondary schools to enrol the pupils into Grade 8. Clearly, many of our young people will be out of school because of the limited space in Grade 8. The long distances between schools are also a problem. Given that situation, could the hon. Minister allow the Kazungula District Education Board (DEB) to continue with the basic school/high school system as a way of enabling as many of our children as possible to access education and become good citizens tomorrow.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the question is not that of allowing the District Education Board (DEB) for Kazungula or any other district to continue with the old system, but one of Government policy. If the Government had enough money to upgrade all the basic schools to secondary schools, we would have done it. Unfortunately, we have budgetary constraints. So, we do not have adequate secondary schools to which we can take all the children currently in our basic schools. That is what has delayed the PF Government in enacting a law to abolish basic schools. We have been considerate, considering that there are challenges whichever way we go. Nonetheless, I am confident that we will have the capacity to open as much space as possible for our learners at the secondary school level. That is what we are destined to do, as Government. Currently, there are 9,000 primary schools whose pupils compete for space in 784 ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

Dr Phiri: … secondary schools. So, we have a big challenge, but we are working on it. We will try to help as many children as possible to get a secondary school education. In short, we will tolerate basic schools until further notice because they are doing a commendable job and we currently have no alternative to them. That is what we will put in the SI and in the review of the Education Act.

I thank, Sir.

CONCLUSION OF PHASE II OF THE MOBILE ISSUANCE OF NATIONAL REGISTRATION CARDS

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mwila): Mr Speaker, I wish to update the House on the conclusion of Phase II of the mobile issuance of national registration cards (NRCs) and the implementation of Phase III of the exercise.

Sir, Phase II of the mobile issuance of NRCs, which was launched on 4th September, 2015, ended on 4th December, 2015, after running for ninety days and covering Lusaka, the Southern, Western and Eastern provinces. At the end of this phase, the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship had registered 776,454 people, against a target of 500,000, representing a 126 per cent success rate. The 776,454 people registered are broken down by province as follows:

Province    Number Targeted    Number Registered

Lusaka    200,000    258,540

Southern    80,000    157,325

Western    100,000     131,194

Eastern    120,000    229,395

Sir, I further wish to state that K58,516,757 has been spent on Phase II of the mobile issuance of NRCs and that my ministry appreciates the support it received from the hon. Members of Parliament, traditional leaders, civil society organisations (CSOs) and the media in the success implementation of this phase of the programme.

Mr Speaker, let me now update the House on Phase III of the programme, which is currently under implementation.

Sir, the third phase of the mobile issuance of NRCs commenced on 1st November, 2015, and will run for ninety days and end on 31st January, 2016. It will cover the Copperbelt, Luapula and North-Western provinces and target the registration of 430,000. As at 6th December, 2015, 300,722 persons had been registered, representing 60 per cent of the target. The registered persons to date, by province, are as follows:

Province    Number Targeted    Number Registered

Copperbelt    230,000    173,156

North-Western    90,000    40,799

Luapula    110,000    86,767

Sir, the estimated cost of Phase III is K40,193,401. To date, K30,000,000 has been spent.

In conclusion, Sir, I wish to inform this House that my ministry is committed to implementing all the phases and issuing all eligible Zambians with NRCs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, how does the hon. Minister know that all eligible Zambians have been issued with national registration cards (NRCs)? I ask this because there is a whole ward that has not been touched at all in my constituency.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the second phase of this programme ran for ninety days. However, I am aware that something went wrong in Pemba Parliamentary Constituency. The hon. Member should take comfort from knowing that we are making arrangements to send teams of officers to some parts of the country, especially in the new districts, where we do not have officers at the Boma, to continue with the exercise.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for this statement. 

Sir, in Luena, there are still some hitches regarding to the over-aged, who have been left out of this exercise because the officers tasked to conduct the exercise refused to register them even though the Government had said that people as old as forty-four years could still be registered. What will the Government do about those people?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I did not say that people as old as forty-four years were eligible to obtain NRCs. Moreover, the officers issuing NRCs screen the people before they are issued with NRCs. They have to consider why anyone would wait until he or she is forty-four years old before seeking to obtain an NRC. Where were they? Those are the challenges that our officers are facing, but they are screening all the people who present themselves and issuing them with NRCs.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, coincidentally, before the hon. Minister came to issue this statement, I sent him a note on the difficulties that his officers issuing national registration cards (NRCs) are facing in Kasempa. When you look at the figures for the North-Western Province, you will see that the exercise did not even reach 50 per cent of the target. That clearly indicates that the problems that we have been bringing to the attention of the Government are real. What will the Government do to address the problems of a lack of transport and late delivery of materials, for example? For instance, the papers used in the exercise were only taken to Kasempa, which has twenty-two wards, on Friday, 4th December, 2015. Will the Government extend the duration of this phase, too, bearing in mind that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) will conclude the mobile registration of voters on 13th December, 2015? Only ten wards of the twenty-two have been covered.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I acknowledge the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasempa Parliamentary Constituency’s very helpful engagement with us on this exercise.

Sir, today is the thirtieth of the ninety days of the third phase of the exercise, meaning that we still have sixty days to go. Let me also say that most of the issues that have been brought to our attention have been sorted out. So, I assure him that I will make sure that all the challenges are sorted out.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the Government will send teams of officers to the new districts to continue issuing NRCs. In Kazungula District, which has 104 polling stations, there were only about four groups of people issuing NRCs. As a result, many polling stations were omitted from the exercise. As I speak, many people have not obtained NRCs. In his desire to see all eligible people acquire NRCs, will the hon. Minister send another team to Kazungula District, where one has to travel over 200 km to reach some of the places?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, that exercise will not be extended to Kazungula because I am aware that the district had more than four teams and had an advantage over other districts. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. However, I have noticed a huge discrepancy between the plan and what has been achieved. Could this be the main reason for the messy, ...

Mr Speaker: Order! 

You have to find another word.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, could this be the main reason for the chaotic implementation, ...

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I am disappointed with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for not being mathematical in his response? Kazungula District has over 104 polling stations and he stated on the Floor of this House that teams issuing NRCs would be at polling stations for seven days. Considering that the officers spent seven days at each polling station and we only had four groups in the district, is he in order not to realise that the equation does not balance? Why does he say that no officers will be sent to Kazungula District to continue with the exercise?

I need your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Quite frankly, I do not think it is appropriate for us to proceed with what the hon. Member purports to be a point of order. 

Hon. Member for Kazungula, if you wish to engage the hon. Minister further, he is available for you to do so. However, I do not think that we should now begin to calculate figures. The hon. Minister has said that he assigned four teams to Kazungula District and, in his estimation, that was better compared with the teams he assigned to other districts. So, I do not think that it is in order for us to begin computing the proportions. The hon. Minister is your colleague and he is available. So, please, engage him.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that there is a huge discrepancy between the target for the North-Western and the number actually registered. Could that be the reason the programme has been executed in a haphazard, un-co-ordinated and chaotic manner, leaving many polling stations without the necessary materials and personnel to service the communities?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, in terms of the projections, we got the numbers on which we based our targets from the Central Statistical Office (CSO). If you look at the North-Western Province, the target was to issue 90,000 NRCs and 45 per cent of that target has already been met, which means that we will beat the target in the next thirty days.In this regard, I urge hon. Members of Parliament to go to their constituencies and encourage all eligible Zambians to obtain NRCs. They should also go to our offices and engage us on this matter, as the hon. Members of Parliament for Monze Central, Mazabuka Central and Kalomo Central have done.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Sir, …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. 

Sir, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs informed the nation on the Floor of this House that the mobile national registration teams would be at each polling station for seven days. However, in Kazungula, Choma, Mazabuka and many other places, they did not even spend a day at some of the stations. Therefore, is the hon. Minister in order to shy away from the promise he made to this House and decree that he will not send registration teams back to Kazungula? He is now going against his own words.

Mr Speaker: I am reluctant to qualify what you are raising, as important as it might be, as a point of order. It clearly qualifies as a follow-up question. As I have not stopped taking questions on this statement, let us not use points of order to follow up on the questions. The hon. Minister is available to answer questions until I say otherwise. We are not stopping yet.

Mr Mooya: Sir, mine is a follow-up on the question asked by Hon. Lufuma, the Member of Parliament for Kabompo West. 

Sir, in a certain province, the target was to issue 80,000 national registration cards (NRC), but 157,325 cards were issued, which is about 200 per cent of the target. In the Eastern Province, the same scenario obtained. The next time the mobile issuance of NRCs is undertaken, will we see the same chaotic scenario that obtained in some province that was given a very low target? Will we allow the Central Statistical Office (CSO) to continue misleading the nation?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, indeed, our targets were based on estimates provided by the CSO. However, the Ministry of Home Affairs has received information that some parents, especially in the Southern Province, were taking children who were younger than sixteen years to get NRCs.

Hon. UPND Members:Question!

Mr Mwila: We have since instituted an investigation into that allegation. As the hon. Member of Parliament has stated, some provinces exceeded the targets by more than 200 per cent. Therefore, we need to investigate the situation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, my question is a follow-up on the one asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena, who has just realised the importance of getting a national registration card (NRC). Is the hon. Minister considering embarking on the continuous sensitisation of people on the importance of getting NRCs, as opposed to waiting until there is a mobile registration exercise? Currently, even this man from Sikongo’s people have not yet been sensitised …

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Do not refer to him as “This man”. He is an hon. Member. So, unless you are referring to someone who is not a Member of this House, please, address him accordingly.

Mr Namulambe: Sorry, Mr Speaker. I thank you for your guidance. 

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs considering sensitising the people of the Western Province, especially those in Sikongo, Hon. Ndalamei’s constituency, to get NRCs whenever they become eligible?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, public sensitisation will continue and the district offices will remain open as usual.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga Central): Mr Speaker, there is no excuse for the figures the hon. Minister obtained from the Central Statistical Office (CSO) were patently wrong and there is no excuse for that. Therefore, he must get the right statistics. 

Sir, in certain places of Senanga, the mobile registration units spent only one to three days and people who had travelled long distances from their villages to the registration centres were left unattended to because they found the registration teams gone by the time they got to the centres. Particularly affected were the people of Sibukali, who were completely left out. Will the ministry provide the materials for the district centres in such places to continue with the exercise?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I think we need to be serious. This programme lasted ninety days. Where was the hon. Member of Parliament for Senanga all this time? We had advised hon. Members to engage our offices so that the programme succeeded. However, the hon. Member of Parliament has chosen to make these claims to this House after the programme has closed, which is not fair on us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I raised a very clear question. I asked whether the ministry will provide materials for the district officials in Senanga to continue with the exercise so as to cater for people in places that were left out in the mobile registration exercise. Is the hon. Minister in order not to answer my question?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, in order for us to make progress, please, clarify that matter.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I have said that …

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

You do not have to clarify that issue immediately, but in due course.

Mr Belemu: Sir, the hon. Minister keeps emphasising two points. The first is that the mobile registration exercise was for ninety days while the second is that the mobile teams went from one polling station to another. However, he is aware, like everyone else, that there were days on which the mobile units did not work because materials were not available, and that matter has been brought before this House and discussed on almost every platform in the wider society. His officers are fully aware of this fact. According to my calculations, the registration units did not work for more than twenty days in my constituency. Assuming that the ninety days allocated to the exercise were all meant for actual work and considering that the mobile registration units did not work on some days due to a lack of materials, will there be a way of compensating for those days by, for example, sending the mobile units back into the field?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the district office in Senanga will be open and the materials are already there. So, he can just encourage his people to go and get NRCs. 

Sir, on the issue of materials, I think that you will recall that a point of order was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central in which he categorically mentioned the areas where we had shortages of materials in Kalomo and Monze districts. We accepted that and extended the exercise. As for the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala’s claim, I am not aware of that situation. 

I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The question from hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala, as I understood it, is whether you will compensate the districts for the days when the officers did not work during the duration of the exercise.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I cannot categorically answer that question because I do not have that information. Therefore, we have to investigate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. 

Sir, the issue of materials has been a thorn in the flesh. As I speak, there are no materials in Mwinilunga and I have tried to engage the relevant department, which assured me that it would send a vehicle. As of today, there are still no materials in the district. This exercise was planned and targeted 90,000 people. However, at 45 per cent of its target, the mobile teams have run out of materials. How well did the ministry plan for the exercise? Further, how does the ministry hope to achieve its target at the rate it is moving?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, unless I am informed, I cannot do anything about the problems about which the hon. Member has complained because I cannot just dream that there are no materials in …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mwila: … Chief Kanongesha’s area or in Mwinilunga.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwila: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for updating us on this important exercise.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, you have always guided this House against sarcasm. Is my friend, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, in order to respond to the question asked by my Secretary-General, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga, by saying that he cannot dream about some occurrence in the field, which amounts to sarcasm?

Mr Speaker: Well, you are right. I have constantly urged against sarcasm because it tends to add a provocative tone to the debates. I am aware that the hon. Minister might be under a great deal of pressure but, certainly, he should have responded more appropriately.

Hon. Member for Ikeleng’i, you may continue.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, why are the hon. Minister’s teams being triggered to move by those doing mobile voter registration instead of it being the other way round? Further, the teams are wasting money by moving to a place and working for two days, after which they move to another place and, then, go back to the initial place. Is the hon. Minister likely to tour the districts to verify some of the reports about which he is not certain, especially from the North-Western Province? 

Sir, on the issue of engagement, I have personally engaged the hon. Minister several times on this matter.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I am not aware ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PONTOON AT LUANGINGA RIVER

225. Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to replace the pontoon on the Luanginga River at Kalabo Harbour with a modern one; and

(b)    whether the Government had any plans to shift the pontoons at Liyoyelo and Sioma, where bridges are under construction, to Kalabo and Libonda harbours on completion of the bridges.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, the pontoon on the Luanginga River at Kalabo Harbour is managed by the Kalabo District Council. However, the Ministry of Works and Supply intends to take over its operations and modernise it before the second quarter of 2016. To that effect, the ministry has dispatched Engineering Services Corporation (ESCO) engineers to carry out an assessment on both the Luanginga and Libonda crossing points for the installation of 20-tonne motorised pontoons.

Mr Speaker, yes, the Government plans to shift the pontoons from Liyoyelo and Sioma to other points where they are needed once the bridges in the two areas have been commissioned. However, the two pontoons cannot be installed at Kalabo and Libonda crossing points because the 45 tonne and 60 tonne pontoons are too big for the shallow crossing points in question.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. 

Sir, a number of hon. Ministers have visited the harbour in Kalabo and some of them have come back promising to construct a bridge there while others have come back laughing and saying that we, the people of Kalabo and Liuwa, have a pontoon that is pulled by ropes because we are very backwards. Can the hon. Minister give me an absolute assurance that, this time around, the Government is serious about replacing the pontoon at Kalabo Harbour, which is pulled by human beings, who are used like oxen.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the question. However, the Member of Parliament who has asked it was an hon. Minister of Finance for a long time, but did not see any need to do what he is now asking us to do. He has only seen the need now.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: What the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is saying is that it plans to look at that issue in the second quarter of 2016.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Libonda, Liyoyelo and Sioma are all crossing points on the same river, namely, the Zambezi? If he is aware, why has he said that the crossing point at Libonda is shallow?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the depth of a river is not constant. Different points have different depths. So, the Zambezi River at Libonda is shallower than at the other points mentioned. Hence, we need a different type of pontoon to be installed there.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the ministry plans to send a team of engineers to carry out feasibility studies on a river that has existed for as long as Zambia has. How much time will it take for the studies to be completed and reviewed so that the project can move on to implementation? 

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, when a feasibility study is undertaken, many issues come out, one of which is the viability of the project. The feasibility study also indicates when the project can be implemented. So, after we review the results of the feasibility study, we will be able to state exactly when we will start the implementation and how much the project will cost.

MITETE DISTRICT AMBULANCE

226.     Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the hon. Minister of Health:

(a)    when the ambulance for Mitete District, which was involved in an accident, would be repaired and returned to the district;

(b)    what had caused the delay in returning the ambulance;

(c)    whether there were any plans to send a relief ambulance in the interim; and

(d)    if there were no such plans, why.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the ambulance that was involved in a road traffic accident will not be returned to the district, as it is beyond repair. Therefore, a new ambulance will be sourced for Mitete after the ministry is compensated by the company with which the old ambulance was insured.

Mr Speaker, there has been no delay in returning the damaged ambulance, as the Government has been following the laid-down procedures for disposing of cases of road traffic accidents, both within the Government and with the insurance company. This process has now been concluded and we are awaiting indemnification from the insurance company.

Mr Speaker, while it waits for an ambulance to be sent, Mitete is being serviced by the ambulance for Lukulu District. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the promise of the replacement of the ambulance. I was a bit worried when he said that the ambulance would not be returned. 

Sir, insurance companies are quick to get premiums from clients, but very slow in paying compensation. Which company insured the ambulance and when will it indemnify the Government for the loss of the ambulance? 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the insurer is the Zambia State Insurance Company (ZISC). 

Sir, our Transport Officer and the Provincial Medical Officer (PMO) are working closely with the insurance company to expedite the indemnification process. All the preliminaries have been concluded and we are just awaiting the conclusion of the matter.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, in most cases, the settlement of claims by insurance companies is discounted by policy excess. Does the hon. Minister think that the amount that will be paid by the Zambia State Insurance Company (ZISC) will be enough to buy another ambulance?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, indications, so far, are that the money will be enough to replace the ambulance.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

__________ 

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE MOVABLE PROPERTY (SECURITY INTEREST) BILL, 2015

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Movable Property (Security Interest) Bill, 2015. The objects of the Bill are to:

(a)    provide for the creation of security interest in movable property so as to contribute to economic development;

(b)    harmonise secure transaction laws;

(c)    harmonise conflicts of  laws in order to promote the financing of international trade and make security interest effective against third parties;

(d)    enhance the availability of low-cost secured credit to allow debtors to use the full value inherent in their assets to support credit;

(e)    establish a collateral office and collateral registry for a single comprehensive registration regime for secure transactions in movable property;

(f)    establish streamlined procedures for obtaining security interest and reducing transaction costs by minimising formalities;

(g)    ensure effectiveness of security agreements and enforceability of security agreements and interests;

(h)    provide for perfection of security interests;

(i)    establish the determination of priority between security interests; and 

(j)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs, Energy and Labour, which is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. 

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE FINANCIAL INTELLIGENCE CENTRE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2015

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Financial Intelligence Centre (Amendment) Bill, 2015. The objects of the Bill are to amend the Financial Intelligence Centre Act so as to:

(a)    redefine some concepts and provide for new definitions of key concepts for purposes of the Act;

(b)    enhance the autonomy, powers and functions of the centre; and 

(c)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs, Energy and Labour, which is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. 

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

___________

MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 20 AND 21, 101

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20, 21(1),  if necessary, and 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom, and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.

Sir, this meeting of the House started on Friday, 18th September, 2015. As of today, Thursday, 10th December, 2015, it has been sitting for forty-eight days. During this period, 238 questions for oral and written answer were considered; eleven Government Bills were passed; one Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs was considered; thirty-five annual reports on Government and quasi-Governmental departments were tabled; fifteen Action-Taken Reports containing the Executive’s responses to recommendations of this House were tabled; and forty-two ministerial statements explaining and clarifying Government policies on various issues were made to the House. Additionally, the House will, at the time of its adjournment, have considered and passed the National Budget for 2016. 

Mr Speaker, the House considered and approved six Budget-related Bills, the landmark Gender Equity and Equality Bill, the Bill on ending casualisation of employment and, most importantly, the Constitution (Amendment) Bills, which have ushered in new Constitutional provisions to better anchor and deepen democracy and good governance in our nation. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, in the course of the meeting, the House welcomed three new Members of Parliament following the by-elections held in various constituencies. These are Hon. T. Kasonso, Member of Parliament for Solwezi West, …

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning:  ... Hon. A. Kasandwe, Member of Parliament for Bangweulu, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: ... and Hon. D. K. Mwamba, Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: I congratulate them and, once again, welcome them to the House. 

Sir, as is evident in what I have said above, a lot of business has been transacted by the House. In that regard, I congratulate all the hon. Members of Parliament for the job well done and urge them to keep up with this spirit of hard work because it is only through hard work that we can bring about prosperity in our country. In this regard, let me also reiterate the need for all hon. Members to observe punctuality at all times. Often, the Business of the House has been delayed on account of the quorum not being made, which has been a sad affair. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to be punctual both at the start of the sitting of the House and after the breaks. I also urge them to remain in the House until its adjournment. Nevertheless, I thank them, particularly the Back Bench, both in the Ruling Party …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … and the Opposition, who played an effective oversight role and kept the Executive on its toes through probing questions for oral and written answer, and by raising thought-provoking issues during the consideration of the National Budget. 

Sir, on the leaking of the President’s Speech to this House, the investigations have reached an advanced stage, but have not yet been concluded. I will revert to the House when the investigations have been concluded. 

Sir, as the House is about to complete the business for which it was convened, it is time to take a break so that the hon. Members can attend to other equally important duties in the wider community. In this regard, I wish to take this opportunity to urge them to visit their respective constituencies and help in supervising the on-going distribution of agricultural inputs. That will be particularly important in areas where the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) System is being piloted. It is important that feedback is provided to the Government on how the programme is progressing so that, where need be, urgent interventions are made. Further, with the onset of the rainy season in some parts of the country, it is important that hon. Members are on the ground to update the Government on how our people are coping with either floods or drought, especially in disaster-prone areas. Therefore, hon. Members are urged to use the recess to assess the situation on the ground and advise the Government, through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), on the areas that may be in desperate need of food and water relief. 

Sir, while on the subject of droughts, I re-emphasise that despite the onset of the rainy season, the country will continue to experience power deficits because the water levels in our rivers and lakes reduced drastically in 2015, resulting in very low production of electricity. It will, therefore, take more than one good rainy season to raise the water to levels that will enable the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) Limited to generate the required amount of energy. Allow me to call upon Zambians to bear with us and remain calm as the Government takes measures to improve power generation and reduce the current load shedding. 

Mr Speaker, as we draw nearer to the 2016 General Elections, and as political activities gain momentum, I urge all parties to conduct themselves in a dignified and non-violent manner, and avoid being vulgar in their speech. I call, especially, upon all leaders of political parties to conduct their political activities with civility, tolerance and respect for one another so that they do not get into conflict with the law. 

Mr Speaker, allow me to express my gratitude to you, the Hon. Deputy Speaker and the Hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House for the efficient manner in which you presided over the Business of the House. I further commend the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the effective services they have continued to render to the House. In the same vein, I acknowledge, with gratitude, the important work done by the officers in the Office of the Vice-President and the entire Public Service in facilitating the work of the House. To you all, I say thank you and keep up the good work.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I request all hon. Members of Parliament to work closely with the District Disaster Management Committees (DDMCs) in their respective districts to ensure that the relief food that the Government has released to districts affected by food insecurity is distributed fairly and transparently to the needy communities. The affected districts are mostly in the Western, Southern and Eastern provinces. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government is committed to ensuring that no one dies of hunger. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: The relief food being distributed, including the maize distributed in Kazungula by the DMMU, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … is intended to achieve this objective. The Government has heard the challenges that are being experienced in the distribution of relief food and has since taken measures to ensure that the relief food reaches the needy in our country on time. I, therefore, call upon all hon. Members of Parliament to take keen interest in the distribution of the relief food. They should not wait until the next sitting to report their findings. Rather, they should immediately report to the DDMC, the Provincial Disaster Management Committee (PDMC) or the DMMU National Co-ordinator.  These structures are on standby twenty-four hours a day to attend to any challenges and ensure that the distribution of relief food is successful. 

Finally, Sir, I wish, on behalf of the Government, to convey good wishes to all our citizens during the Christmas and New Year festivities. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Adjournment Motion. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: In doing so, I would like to register my concern over the timing. Indeed, it might not be unprecedented, but one certainly wonders why we have decided to adjourn today when, clearly, there is a lot of Business on the Order Paper. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Ordinarily, we should have postponed the adjournment to tomorrow so that hon. Members of Parliament are not made to sit or, in fact, sleep in this Chamber and drive to their homes at 0200 hours to 0400 hours. Those who have been here long enough know that there have been times when we adjourned at 0200 hours or 0300 hours …

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Even 0500 hours!

Ms Namugala: … even 0500 hours. By the time we got to 0500 hours, people were too tired to focus on the Business of the House and, as a result, did not do their best as representatives of the people. So, as we debate, I hope that we will take into account the need to ensure the safety of hon. Members of Parliament. 

Mr Speaker, having said the above, I congratulate the hon. Members of this House, both on your left and right, on the manner in which they conducted the Business of the House. In fact, I we are a very unique Parliament because we have taken the very difficult step to amend the Constitution of Zambia, which we have failed to do in the past. So, I think that we must all congratulate ourselves. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: This is not a mean achievement. In the past, we have been afraid of taking this step for various reasons. We asked ourselves whether we were ready, whether we would not be partisan, whether we could actually do it ourselves or take it to a bigger grouping and many other questions. However, as it has been said before, we are the representatives of the people. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Therefore, what we are doing is not unconstitutional. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga:Echo nakutemwena, iwe Namugala.

Laughter 

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament and human beings, we will make mistakes, but the step we have taken is necessary. We will make a difference in the way the country moves forward. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, some of us have been very particular about Part III of the Constitution because therein lies the rights that make our people feel that they can run to the Government when their rights are violated. However, it is better to have half a loaf of bread than no bread at all, especially when there is hope that the other half will come. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: So, I do hope that those in the Executive, especially the hon. Minister of Justice, will keep their commitment because this is an opportunity for them to go into the annals of history as people who came to this Parliament and asked it to do what it could and wait for the process to achieve the rest. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Some of us trust the people on your right, but their name and legacy worries us. So, the hon. Minister of Justice must ensure that the rest of the Constitution is reviewed for the people of Zambia. He has done well by taking the first step and we congratulate him on that. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, we are adjourning at a very difficult time. Economically, the country is facing serious challenges that can reverse the gains that we have made, as a nation. 

Mr Speaker, the current energy deficit is unprecedented. The Government might attribute it to a number of factors, but we should ask whether the low water levels are the only factor. If there is something else that can be done to reduce the deficit, apart from waiting for the rains and importing power, then, let us do that. In my view, we need to look at the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), the power utility. How efficient is it? Is it well managed? Are we, as politicians, being blamed for something of which we can take charge? Let us look at what the cost of running ZESCO as a business is. For example, what salaries are paid there?

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: No points of order, Hon. Nkombo.

Mr Nkombo: It is a point of guidance.

Mr Speaker: No points of guidance, Hon. Nkombo.

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, those who want to lead at the level of Cabinet Minister or President need to realise that there is a level of responsibility that comes with leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: That responsibility includes managing the economy of the country. I am not sure that those who are in power are doing all they can to address the economic challenges that we are facing. 

Sir, as though the parastatals that we currently have are not causing us enough headaches, we want to create more. Are we sure that we have the capacity to supervise the parastatals under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC)? I am not sure. 

Sir, as we adjourn, we do not know what the dollar/kwacha exchange rate will be by the time we return. Our local currency has been depreciating at an alarming rate, creating an environment in which doing business has become unpredictable. 

Mr Speaker, a friend from South Africa joked about our currency, saying that when people go to a restaurant in Zambia, they have to pay their bill before eating the meal to avoid paying double in case the currency depreciates while they are eating the meal.

Laughter 

Ms Siliya: When the currency is worse?

Ms Namugala: That is what I was told.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Namugala: The rate of depreciation of our currency has been the highest in the region. In any case, if we take comfort from knowing that there are others in worse circumstances than us, we will not progress. The depreciation of the currency has been a shock to the business community in Zambia and I do not think it helps us to ask how a South African can joke about our currency because if the business does not thrive, we cannot sustain the current jobs or create the additional ones that we have been talking about. The business community is the engine of growth. So, private investors need to be assured that they will get a return on their investments and be able to get foreign the exchange needed to import the inputs they need for production.

Sir, we already have a serious power deficit problem to deal with. However, as thought to add insult to injury, electricity tariffs have been raised by, in some cases, more than 200 per cent. That is a cost to any business, which will be passed on to the consumers of goods and services. So, while I understand that we are trying to protect households and open up the sector to new investors, will the Government do that at the expense of the small and medium enterprises (SMEs)? Will it forgo the opportunities that come with SMEs, such as employment creation, in creating incentives for potential foreign investors? My suggestion to the Government is that we reverse the impromptu tariff adjustment. I understand that we need to adjust the tariffs, but let us not do it over time so that we do not undermine the growth of the SMEs.

Sir, as we adjourn and return to our constituencies, most of us, hon. Members, will find our people still wallowing in poverty. Constituencies like Mafinga seem like they are in a different country. It is as if there are two Zambias, one for the rural people ...

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mafinga.

Let me seize this opportunity to provide general guidance. I know that this is a perennial problem, as this is my fifth year as Speaker. This is essentially a procedural Motion to suspend the specified Standing Orders. I know that we allow latitude for general comments and the like, but the Motion is procedural.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, as we adjourn to go to our constituencies, we will find our people facing the same challenges that they have faced over the last fifty years and, as hon. Members of Parliament, we are sometimes asked questions that we cannot answer. Children still walk long distances to schools whose infrastructure is, in most cases, incomplete. Women are still dying because of the long distances to health facilities. Those are the challenges that we face, as hon. Members of Parliament, when we go to our constituencies, and we have to provide answers to the people’s questions. There are even issues to do with the forth-coming general elections. Our people will ask whether they are safe, given the violence that they have been hearing about. They will also wonder if everything is alright here, in Lusaka, where we would have come from. They will equally wonder why only members of the Opposition are being arrested. We have to answer.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Maybe, the arrests are only selective in perception, but the impression is there still. 

Sir, our constituents will further ask us why police officers now act as though they were cadres of one or two political parties and we will have to answer. 

Mr Speaker, I want to say to both sides of the House that Zambia is not at war with itself. 

Mr Mbulakulima: No!

Ms Namugala: The Patriotic Front (PF) must not be at war with the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). We should not be at war with each other because we are brothers and sisters when we come here. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Even when we go outside, we should sell ideas of how we would do things differently if elected. We should also talk about how we would reduce the high poverty levels among all our people. At the end of the day, when people are suffering, it would not matter whether they support the PF or the UPND because their suffering will be the same. Therefore, those of us who have been given the opportunity to lead, as councillors, Members of Parliament, Presidents and Vice-Presidents who, in this case, is our dear mother, let us it to unite the nation against the real enemy that we face today, which is poverty. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: That is what we must fight. Together, we can create platforms on which we can challenge each other so that our people can see which group is more capable of providing solutions for the problems that they face. We are not supposed to hear that of PF youths killing UPND youths or vice-versa. What a waste of life! Our children deserve to be in universities, not prisons or police cells, because that does not advance the interests of this nation. 

Sir, while the hon. Members are here, there are people who have taken advantage of the challenging year ahead  of us to invade most of the constituencies and campaign for people on one side of this House or the other, and there is total disorder. 

Mr Speaker, in building peace, we should start from intra-party democracy. When our political parties are peaceful and democratic, there will be peace and democracy in the nation at large. So, as I sit down, I would like to say that there is only one Zambia and preserve it. So, we must lower the poverty levels, and maintain peace and unity.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Speaker: Let me repeat my guidance. 

Hon. Members, this is a procedural Motion. As you all know, we have very serious business and time-consuming Business on the Order Paper. So, we need to accord it enough time. This Motion is merely aimed at suspending the specified Standing Orders so that we can sit beyond the usual time. It is as simple as that. So, we should not complicate the Motion. We have three important Bills to consider. 

Hon. UPND Membersindicated.

Mr Speaker: I am not through. I will indicate when I am. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I do not want to curtail debates because it is not comfortable. This Motion not be extensive, anyway, because it is procedural. The task you have given me is to manage the time and I want to do just that.  

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor. From the outset, I would like to strongly oppose the proposed suspension of the specified Standing Orders today.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you have rightly put the issue at hand. Today, we are supposed to discuss the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, the Appropriation Bill and some Votes in the 2016 Budget for Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, debating the Constitution of Zambia demands that we do so in a state of mind capable of analysing the issues at hand. If we suspend the specified Standing Orders, we will be made to be in this House until tomorrow.

Hon. Government Members: Why? 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, if the minds get tired, we will be inclined to making wrong decisions. We should not allow hon. Members of Parliament to make a Constitution that is not in the interest of Zambians. We need hon. Members of Parliament to be fresh and be analytical. What is the rush? Why should we adjourn today and, then, continue working tomorrow when we will have the whole day tomorrow? Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning must withdraw this Motion and move it tomorrow morning so that we sit in the morning and afternoon. That way, we can diligently argue the issues at hand.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We do not want to be tired and fail to reason when issues arise. If necessary, we are willing to meet tomorrow without receiving any allowance …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … for the sake of debating this Motion prudently. 

Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning has advised us to go to our constituencies and advise our constituents on various national issues, and my colleagues on your left and I are very keen to do that. 

Mr Speaker, one of the issues that we will tell our constituents is that the campaigns have started and that our people must, therefore, not wait for pronouncements from the Government to that effect.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are aware that the campaigns have started. So, we will tell our people to hit the campaign trail.

 Mr Speaker, this afternoon, I and my colleagues from the Southern Province heard the hon. Minister of Home Affairs tell the nation that the Government is investigating allegations of malpractices in the mobile issuance of national registration cards (NRCs) in the Southern Province. The contention is that the number of people who have registered in the province is too high and that there are some families that overstated the ages of their children. Our people listened to what the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was saying and will want to hear from us why there are no similar investigations in other provinces where the targets were exceeded. The people in the Southern Province feel discriminated against by this move.

Mr Speaker, as Hon. Mooya indicated, the target for the Eastern Province has been exceeded by about 200 per cent. Why is the Government not investigating that case, too? Why is it targeting the Southern Province alone?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

There are running commentaries on my right, but I cannot single out who is making them yet. Hon. Members, please, restrain yourselves from doing that because we are wasting precious time.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying that we will explain to the people the discriminatory tendencies of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, which has singled out the Southern Province for discrimination in this exercise. Whereas other provinces have also exceeded the targets, they are not being investigated, but the Southern Province is being targeted. What have the people of Southern Province done to the PF Government to deserve this kind of treatment? We have pictures of children below twelve years of age getting NRCs in the Northern and Luapula provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, why should the Government target the people of one province and forget about the others? If it wants to investigate, the investigation must cover the whole country.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is fair! 

Mr Speaker, I agree with the sentiments of Hon. Namugala on the political violence in this country. We have noticed with concern how the PF Government has simultaneously violated the Public Order Act and abused it to target opposition political parties in its endeavour to remain in power. Equally, we have noticed that whenever there is violence, the PF Government, through the Zambia Police Force, targets the victims and lets the perpetrators go scot-free. Our people will ask us to explain that, too. Our people will also expect us to tell them whether there is a state of emergency in this country. Recently, and this morning, we have had situations ...

Mr Sichone: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I will not allow any point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, our party Vice-President, Hon. G. B. Mwamba, was in the Northern Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member for Monze Central continue debating. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, our Vice-President, Mr G. B. Mwamba, was harassed by police officers in a Church and at a funeral with impunity. The officers asked him whether he had notified them that he would go to Church and the funeral. Additionally, whilst he was in the Northern Province, Hon. Mwamba was followed by the police wherever he went. He was also denied the right to visit his relatives, which is a very unfortunate situation. As if that was not enough, our party President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, went to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) to visit a chief who is admitted there only for a battalion of police officers to try to stop him from getting into the hospital. What kind of lawlessness is that?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, my colleagues are making running commentaries, but they should realise that …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Mwiimbu, please, do not concentrate on the comments from the other hon. Members because that is my problem. You should, instead, concentrate on your debate. Additionally, you started off very well by concentrating on the purpose of the Motion. You expressed your opposition to the proposal for the House to suspend some specified Standing Orders and finish all its business on today, Thursday, 10th December, 2015. Instead, you proposed another sitting tomorrow, Friday, 11th December, 2015. Those are the issues that are directly related to the Motion.

 You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning has advised us to go to our constituencies to supervise the distribution of relief food. I wish to remind her that she promised us on the Floor of this House that relief food would be delivered to the districts in the Southern Province in August, 2015. However, to date, the food has not been released. So, we will tell our people that the relief food will be delivered when the Government gets ready and that, in the meantime, hunger will continue. Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning has also told us to monitor and supervise the implementation of the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) System. However, all my colleagues from the Southern Province can testify before this House that the implementation of the e-Voucher System in the province has been a disaster.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwiimbu: It has failed the people of the Southern Province. Even if there will be adequate rainfall, there will be hunger in the province because of the problems in the administration the system. We have advised the Government on the Floor of this House to revisit the implementation of the e-Voucher System, but it has told us that all is well, yet all is not well. If the Government is sincere, it should acknowledge the problem and address it.

Mr Speaker, some hon. Members are on record stating that their provinces are heaven on earth.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, where I come from, it is hell on earth …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … because of the problems the people of Monze are facing. For example, they do not have education and health facilities, and I have raised these issues on a number of occasions. The people have repeatedly asked me why there is no district hospital or Government secondary school in Monze Central Constituency. All the schools in the district are mission schools run by the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) Church and Catholic Church, and I have repeatedly appealed to the Government for a secondary school.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we have also appealed to the Government to construct dams …

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Mwiimbu: … in the Southern Province because it is a drought-prone area. However, the Government does not want any development to take place in the province. So, it has not constructed the dams. We are aware that there will be a drought this year and that, if there are no dams to retain the little rain water that we will receive, our animals, which are our source of wealth, will die. So, we appeal to the Government to positively discriminate us in the construction of dams because that is will be our only lifeline.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I urge those who are independent of wisdom to listen to what I am saying.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I appeal to hon. Members of this House to reject this Motion, and Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, to withdraw it …

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … so that we can sit the whole day tomorrow until we conclude our deliberations. It will not be in the interest of anyone to rush this process. We still remember what transpired when we debated the Motion on the lifting of the immunity of the Fourth Republican President, Mr Rupiah Banda. The members of the Executive rushed the process through and, after the House had passed the Motion, laughed at us, saying that they had wanted us to be tired so that we could easily pass the Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: That should not be case today because we want to prudently deliberate on this matter.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Works and Supply and Chief Whip (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion on the Floor because we need to suspend Standing Orders 20 and 21 so that we can sit beyond the normal hours. I know that we are not the only Parliament that has been doing this. The House of Commons in the United Kingdom (UK) has done it before. In fact, we have gone beyond 2300 hours and 0400 hours in the past.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: So, I do not know why the hon. Opposition Members are objecting to this Motion. When the House of Commons was considering whether the British Government should get involved in the Syrian war, it sat until the next day.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Regardless of how you feel, you cannot debate whilst seated. These are basic rules.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the UK Parliamentarians debated the Syrian Civil War and the related threats of terrorist activities for the whole night. Similarly, we need to complete what is on the Order Paper. We should all speak on behalf of our people. The people of Zambia are not interested in our objections to this Motion. Instead, they are interested in seeing the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill passed in this sitting and things done in an orderly manner. Therefore, we should be committed to the work that we have been given by the people who voted for us. Some people want to play to the gallery where their leaders are in the Galleries.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mukanga: However, let us look at the issues seriously and represent those who voted for us effectively.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Let us have some order. We do not do business in this manner. I also remind the Chief Whip to bear in mind that this is a procedural Motion.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I am saying this because everyone in this House is saying that the Constitution is important.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mukanga: So, if we all agree that the Constitution is important, we should die a little for the people of Zambia and pass the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill by tomorrow. We need to have a better Constitution …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: … and I think it is imperative that we provide it. Therefore, I support the Motion and state that those who are objecting to it are not as committed as we are to giving the people of Zambia a new Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: This Government is very committed and consistent to that issue. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: That is why we are supporting this Motion. We have to complete all the business on the Order Paper. 

With those few words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, this being a non-controversial Motion, it only remains for me to pay tribute to the hon. Members who have supported it. 

Sir, I would also like to take this opportunity to wish all the hon. Members of Parliament and the people of Zambia a merry Christmas and prosperous New Year.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Standing Orders 20, 21(1), if necessary, and 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die, put andthe House voted. 

Ayes – (100)

Mr C. K. Banda
Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs A. M. Chungu
Mr S. Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Imenda
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Col. J. Lungu
Mr M. D. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr M. Malama
Mr Mwimba H. Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Mr Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Zulu

Noes – (43)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chitafu
Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mtolo
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (0)

The question that Standing Orders 20 and 21(1), if necessary, and Standing Order 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine dieaccordingly agreed to with more than two-thirds of all Members voting in the affirmative.

__________

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA (Amendment) BILL, 2015

The Chairperson: Let me just offer guidance. The Constitution (Amendment) Bills Nos. 16 and 17 were presented to the House for first reading ...

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on the right!

... by the hon. Minister of Justice on Thursday, 15th October, 2015, and referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. The Speaker announced in the House that all hon. Members wishing to make submissions on or amendments to the Bill were free to do so during the programme of work of the Committee. The Bills are not drafts. The Committee’s report on the Bills was tabled in the House and circulated to all the hon. Members through their pigeonholes on Monday, 23rd November, 2015. For the record, only two hon. Members appeared before the Committee to make submission. The long-established procedure for considering Bills in this House during Committee stage, according to Standing Order No. 112, is that the Chairperson calls out each clause or article of the Bill and says, “Any debate, any objection?” However, only those clauses or articles on which there are proposals for amendments circulated in advance can be debated, beginning with the mover of the amendments and going on to the other hon. Members of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Thereafter, the Chairperson puts the question on whether the clause or article, as amended, is agreed to or rejected. The question is, thus, put because there is a proposal on the Floor, either to amend a provision or to delete it. The House has, in the past ten years and beyond, passed many Bills, including the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 20 of 2009, the Anti-Corruption Bill No. 3 of 2012, the Persons with Disabilities Bill No. 6 of 2012, and the Redenomination of Currency Bill No. 8 of 2012. A perusal of the Daily Debates and proceedings reveals the process I have just explained.

Hon. Members, please, be reminded that, according to Article 86, the National Assembly is empowered to determine its own procedure. The House has, thus, established these procedures for considering Bills in Committee over a long period of time. Therefore, this afternoon, we will proceed in Committee as I have guided. Hon. Members are advised to respect the rules and established processes of this House accordingly. We are only repositories of the rules that are made by the House.

Clause 3(7)(8)(9) and (10) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4(33)(34)(35)(36)(37)(38)(39)(40)(41(42)(43) and (44) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 – (Repeal and Replacement of Part IV)

The Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, in Article 45, on page 9, in lines 32 and 33, by the deletion of the words “provincial assembly”.

The Chairperson: The question here is that Article 45 be amended with words as circulated, meaning that if you have to comment, it must be only on the provisions of Article 45, not on anything else.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this article makes reference to provincial assemblies, among other things. I am sure that hon. Members realise that the establishment of provincial assemblies calls for a huge financial outlay. So, much as we, on your right, support the principle of devolution of power, we are mindful of the fact that the country’s current economic situation cannot support the establishment of provincial assemblies. I am sure that those hon. Members who have had an opportunity to visit one of the countries in East Africa in which provincial assemblies were recently introduced following the enactment of a new Constitution know that the country now plans to do away with the system. We must draw lessons from the experiences of other jurisdictions to avoid falling in the same situation. We, therefore, propose that the provision on provincial assemblies pend until such a time as our economy picks up.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I have very few comments to make on this provision.

Sir, let me start with the hon. Minister’s statement that the Government will consider including the provision for provincial assemblies in our Constitution “as and when the country’s economy improves.” From 2011, when the Patriotic Front (PF) took over power, everyone has witnessed how the economy has been deteriorating. It, therefore, goes without saying that things will not turn around economically for this country as long as the PF is in power. The hon. Minister directly referred to the expense associated with this particular clause and has said that some Eastern African country whose name he did not mention has had a negative experience with a similar provision in its constitution. However, he forgot to mention some jurisdictions, including South Africa and Namibia, very close to us, where the provincial assemblies have worked out. We have to note that all the countries in the whole region are in the same economic climate. It, therefore, goes without saying that the hon. Minister has resigned himself to the idea that the Government will never turn the economy around. When the people were making submissions on this provision, the economy, as left by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government, was solid.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Nobody can contest that fact. The gross domestic product (GDP) growth rate left by the MMD Government was more promising than it is today.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Sir, some greenhorn is asking if I am sure. I am very certain about what I am saying.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Nkombo!

Let us be civil in the way we debate. Equally, the people on my right who have the habit of making running commentaries while seated should not take my calling on you to be civil to mean that I encourage their behaviour. Let us all be civil in the way we approach these things and do the right thing.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the facts speak for themselves. In 2011, when PF took over power, it inherited a solid and sound economy. There is no contest on that fact. 

Sir, we must underline the fact that the provincial assemblies were been proposed in a PF-driven Constitution-making process. The process that gave birth to the current Draft Constitution was a brainchild of the PF Government. I think that the current Government has peeped into what the MMD left behind and found that the previous regime had built a good foundation on which a good law could be enacted. So, it goes without saying that the PF has admitted, even in the face of the extenuating circumstances that we all know, that it has played a part in diminishing the fortunes of this country by borrowing extensively. 

Mr Chairperson, if our colleagues on your right think that it is expensive to have provincial assemblies, I want one of them to prove to me that that financing provincial assemblies would be more expensive than repaying the many loans that they have contracted arbitrarily and unabated, which will affect this country adversely one day. So, the hon. Minister of Justice must accept that the Government has put this country in harm’s way and that is the only reason the Ruling Party has U-turned on some provisions in its own Draft Constitution.

Sir, the National Constitution Conference (NCC) produced a document on the Constitution and the PF Government, on its volition, constituted an eighteen-man Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to revisit the whole process and argued that it was financially prudent to use that method to draft a new Constitution. So, at what stage did our colleagues wake up and realise that this method is bad and unsustainable?

Sir, the people of Tanzania have just elected a new Government and the new President has instituted some measures aimed at cutting government spending, including reducing the emoluments for hon. Members of Parliament. What is wrong with us emulating our Tanzanian counterparts and going a mile further so that the country can be adequately represented? 

Sir, the constituency that I represent is very small and has only five wards. However, there are big constituencies, such as Kasempa, which has got twenty-two wards. I think the people of Zambia, whose document the PF is trying to mutilate, spoke loudly that they wanted provincial assemblies. It is also true that the provincial assemblies would even provide a cure for the very longstanding issue in Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s homeland. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: We have been grappling with the Barotseland Agreement issue for a very long time. It was partly due to this that the people of Zambia, in the spirit of devolving power from the Central Government, spoke very loudly that they needed the provision on provincial assemblies to be included in the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. 

Sir, I sometimes tend to think that the PF Government mistakenly believes that it elected itself in 2011. It seems that our colleagues have forgotten which platform they used to win the elections. It is the same people whose desires are reflected in the Draft Constitution put the PF to where it is today. It appears that amnesia has taken over.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The hon. Members on your right think that they put themselves in Government. 

Sir, the Constitution-making process is not a joking matter and we have been grappling with it for a long time in this House. You know very well that, in 2012, Opposition hon. Members of Parliament became disorderly in this Chamber in a bid to push the PF to live up to its promise of enacting a people-driven Constitution. This Constitution is not for a certain section of our society, the PF or Hon. Dr Ngosa Simbyakula, the Minister of Justice. Our friends will soon pay dearly for mutilating this document.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: It is easy for our colleagues to scream, “Question!”, but posterity will judge them and my thinking is that the judgment will be very harsh. 

Sir, each time we asked the Government on the Floor of this House about its promise to deliver a new Constitution within its prescribed time of ninety days, we were told that the promise was a mere campaign tactic. The same has been the responsible to our reminders to our colleagues that they promised to introduce certain legislation, such as the reintroduction of the windfall tax. Our friends have shown inconsistencies and filibustered on their promises. They have not kept their word. I, therefore, say that posterity will judge them and put them in their rightful place much sooner than they expect.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the Constitution is sacrosanct. In Tonga, we say chila tondwa. It is taboo to temper with the people’s document just because we think we are more intelligent than others, to borrow the words of an hon. Member of Parliament on your left who debated the Motion to suspend some Standing Orders. Collectively, here, we are nothing compared to the louder voice of the Zambian people. That is something we should know.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hour until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES in the Chair]

ANNOUCEMENT BY THE CHAIRPERSON

ARRANGEMENTS FOR DINNER

The Chairperson: Hon. Members the following arrangements have been made regarding dinner this evening:

(a)    the dinner break will be from 2000 hours to 2115 hours;

(b)    the House will resume sitting at exactly 2130 hours;

(c)    hon. Members will have their dinner in the restaurant here, at Parliament Buildings;

(d)    members of staff and ministry officials will have their dinner at the Members’ Motel;

(e)    transport to and from the Members’ Motel will be made available for staff and ministry officials at the entrance to the Main Building; and

(f)    dinner for hon. Members, staff and ministry officials will be provided courtesy of the Hon. Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I urge all hon. Members to be punctual and request the Party Whips to ensure that the quorum is formed at 2130 hours.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

___________ 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Somebody is on the Floor. So, those who are coming in late should do so quietly and resume your seats quickly.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, when business was suspended, I was saying that Constitution-making is a sacrosanct process and that posterity would, in time, judge the hon. Minister and his collaborators very harshly. As I have said before, Governments are brought down forcefully or wrongfully because they do atrocious things to their people. In this case, it will be because it has dismembered the Draft Constitution, which was prepared by the people of Zambia. 

Sir, in the objects of the Bill, it is clear that what we are doing with regard to Parliamentary Secretaries is just an academic exercise. Yesterday, towards the end of our business, you took time to clarify that we needed to cover ground each time the hon. Minister introduced a clause. It is clear that the PF will use the arrogance of numbers to resolve the issues of parliamentary secretaries and provincial assemblies to a predetermined end. All I can say is that sometimes, battles can be won, but wars lost. 

Mr Chairperson, it is true that our colleagues on your right were favoured with the mandate to govern this country by the people of Zambia, but they should not forget that the carpet will be swept from under their feet by the same people whose hopes they had raised high. Zambians had thought that devolution of power and functions would be a real experience in this country.

Mr Mwamba: Wishful thinking.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it amazes me how selective the PF can be on what it deems costly and what it does not because under the four years of its rule, we have seen reckless spending on unnecessary by-elections it has induced from the ward to the constituency levels. We have seen individuals manipulated and tested until they sold their souls and betrayed the people who cast their vote for the individuals and their parties on 20th September, 2011. The moment of reckoning is soon approaching for such people. It is only true that such is the attitude the PF has manifested today and that it is such behaviour that has seen governments come and go sooner than they expected to.

Mr Mukanga interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I can hear comments from my brother and I look to you for protection so that I do not address him. The person interjecting me is one of the most decent people in the PF.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Please, let us stop the running commentaries.

Mr Muntanga: Who is decent there?

Mr Nkombo: They know him, Hon. Mukanga.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Nkombo!

You asked me to protect you. So, allow me to do so. I am asking them to stop the running commentaries.

Mr Nkombo: I promise, Sir, that I will be quiet when it is their time to talk, as you know me. 

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: I do not talk when people are debating. So, I would also like my thought stream to be allowed to flow freely.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Nkombo!

A ruling has already been made and you are protected. I have appealed to them not to disturb you. So, just continue with your debate.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, experience is the best teacher. We have seen how blood was shed in the Western Province both under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government and the current one. The people of the Western Province’s voices were loud enough for all to hear when they asked for a fair share of the national cake. You heard from the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena yesterday how the PF borrowed colossal sums of money to build or rehabilitate roads in some parts of the country, yet her constituency remained neglected. It is the provincial assemblies and similar structures that can provide solutions to such challenges because they allow the people to determine their own destiny, remain united indivisible and preserve the sovereignty of our country. 

Mr Chairperson, as I resume my seat, I will be quiet and attentive, although I know that what we are doing is a merely academic exercise. For now, the PF will win the battle. Let us wait and see how it will fare in the war.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. I will be very brief.

Mr Chairperson, among the 157 hon. Members seated here, there should be no winner or loser. We are supposed to be a united family. That is what I believe.

Mr Chairperson, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) lost the opportunity to give Zambia a good Constitution and be patted on the back by Zambians. When we were in Government, we used to tell Zambians that we would give them a Constitution that would stand the test of time. I stress the phrase ‘stand the test of time’. Unfortunately, we lost that opportunity for good. In my view, that failure is what cost the MMD the vote. I implore the people on your right to get my point. The lack of willingness to listen to advice cost the MMD the vote. We are on your left and ashamed today because we closed our ears to any advice. So, I advise my brothers and sisters on the right that this opportunity is theirs to seize or lose. 

Sir, when the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, it promised to give the people of Zambia a Constitution that would stand the test of time in ninety days. Zambians are still waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: The PF has now borrowed the MMD rhetoric. It will be very unfortunate for the political parties that get into Government, the Alliance for Development and Democracy (ADD), the MMD, the PF and the United Party for National Development (UPND), all fail to give the people of Zambia a Constitution that will stand the test of time. 

Mr Chairperson, while in the Southern Province recently, His Excellency the President said:

“I have sent the Draft Constitution to Parliament. It is up to those women and men in Parliament to disappoint you, the Zambians. Do not blame me, for I have washed my hands off it.”

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, the President did not say that he sent the Draft Constitution with amendments. So, it is unfortunate that we are now trying to create winners and losers. 

Mr Chairperson, let me advise my brothers and sisters on your right on the clause on provincial assemblies that we are deleting today. They have to know that the people of the North-Western Province, on whose behalf I speak, have told me to say that ...

Laughter

Ms Sayifwanda: … despite Lumwana, Kansanshi and Kalumbila mines contributing to the treasury, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: … the province has been neglected in terms of development projects. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Sir, the province only has two female hon. Members of Parliament. If it was given mandate to have a provincial assembly, it would have a voice to claim its fair share of the national cake. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: It would have a say in determining its destiny. I came back from Solwezi last week where I had gone to bury my beloved elder brother, the former District Commissioner (DC) for Kasempa, and my niece, may their souls rest in peace. While there, I was able to see that the works on the Chingola/Solwezi Road are below the standard. For example, a road sign indicating a hump is placed 2 km away from the hump. 

Laughter

Ms Sayifwanda: I remember that the former hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central, Mr Mulusa, and I demonstrated over that road. The situation is sad. However, if the people of the North-Western Province had a provincial assembly, they would demand a fair share of the tax revenue from Kalumbila, Lumwana and Kansanshi mines and use it to develop township roads, the Chingola/Solwezi Road and many others.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sayifwanda: Mr Chairperson, I have not seen any works on urban roads. My district or constituency is the only one in the province where some road works were initiated, and I thank the hon. Minister of Works and Supply for that. However, to date, the contractor’s equipment has been packed. Is that what the people of the North-Western Province want?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Hon. UPND Members:Hanjika!

Ms Sayifwanda: That is not what they want, but they will only be free to control their destiny through the provincial assemblies.

Mr Chairperson, I started by saying that the PF, like the MMD, promised to give the people of Zambia a Constitution that would stand the test of time. Today, I am really surprised to hear my colleagues say that the proposed structures will be too costly and that our country lacks the required resources. What does the phrase ‘test of time’ mean? Is it something done for today or yesterday? Is that what we are talking about? Some of us here may not even benefit from these proposals, but our children and grandchildren will. So, why should we raise the issue of costs? When the current Constitution was enacted, the population of Zambia was very small compared to what it is today. So, if we are aiming at enacting a Constitution that will stand the test of time, why are we concerned about tomorrow?

Mr Chairperson, it will be very unfair for the 157 of us to hijack this process. We had all the time during the sittings of National Constitutional Conference (NCC) and the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to input into this process because we were party to the proceedings of the two bodies. Why should we now come here and argue on the document that reflects the will of the people of Zambia? This is very unfortunate. 

Mr Chairperson, I ask the hon. Minister of Justice to withdraw the proposed amendments.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: The PF is now in the driving seat, just like the MMD once was. Why should it open itself up to criticism? When the President said that he would send this document to Parliament, he did not say that it would be for us to remove some clauses from it. Why does the PF want to attract criticism from the nation?

Hon. UPND Members:Hanjika!

Mr Livune:Mwana pwevo.

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Chairperson, again, I ask the hon. Minister of Justice to withdraw the amendments and the blueprint.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Sir, the people of the North-Western Province have sent me to ask the hon. Minister of Justice to withdraw these amendments so that they can be happy with the PF Government. It was the PF Government, which promised the people of Zambia a Constitution that would stand the test of time, not Ms Sayifwanda. 

Sir, if we enact a good Constitution, the PF Government will start using it, and subsequent governments will do the same. So, why is the PF Government afraid of enacting such a Constitution? The money that will be used to actualise the provisions that the people wants included in the Constitution will not come from our pockets. It will be public money. We have been able to mobilise money for by-elections. Why should we shy away from doing the same for Constitutional provisions? I can say that I am a very progressive woman because I have been struggling for the past four years to defend my seat after my election as hon. Member of Parliament was petitioned. It has not been easy for me, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: … but I have managed to set the record of being the longest-serving Member of Parliament for Zambezi East.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: As a woman, I will say that I am very hardworking, hence my having set this record. I also do not consider tribal or political affiliations because I consider myself a national leader. That is why I have been re-elected in that constituency many times.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Sayifwanda!

I wanted to give allow you to move away from debating yourself, but I have seen that you are not doing so.  Please, do not debate yourself. 

Ms Sayifwanda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for the guidance.

Sir, as a leader, I should not close the door to other women, the disabled or youths who aspire to become leaders.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: They also need to exercise their right to lead. The hon. Members of Parliament here should not close the door to the general citizenry to take charge of their country’s destiny, as they have demanded to do in this document. 

Hon. Minister of Justice, you are a very good man. As you stand up to wind up debate, I want to hear you withdraw these amendments or else, ...

Laughter

Ms Sayifwanda: … Mr Chairperson, ...

The Chairperson: Will you sit on me?

Laughter

Ms Sayifwanda: Sir, I will not sit on you. I just want to advise the hon. Minister of Justice that this House’s tenure will end in five months. So, as we draw closer to the general elections, he should not open himself up to criticism by allowing these amendments to be passed. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister should withdraw the proposed amendments. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Let me guide the House. 

As you know, there are many amendments to be considered today. So, I intend to call two Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members, an Independent hon. Member, two Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) hon. Members and two United Party for National Development (UPND) hon. Members to debate. So, with that advice, maybe, the groupings I have mentioned can agree on who should debate. Otherwise, if I allow all to debate, we will start saying the same things over and over. 

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the chance to debate. 

Sir, the late former President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, once said that people ought to make decisions that they will be able to implement and that a good driver always checks whether his car has enough fuel and good tyres, and whether it is well oiled before he or she starts his or her journey. 

Mr Chairperson, I have read through the Draft Constitution and I appreciate the arguments that the people of Zambia have put across in relation to the provision on provincial assemblies, which would turn this country into a federal State. The rationale behind the provision was to enable people to make decisions on matters that affect their respective provinces. However, going by what I have heard from the hon. Minister of Justice concerning the country’s lack of resources, I think that we should revisit some proposals regardless of their popularity. The establishment of provincial assemblies might not be a priority for several reasons. For example, Zambia is implementing the Decentralisation Policy, through which people will be empowered to make decisions and govern themselves in their respective localities. Of late, there has been an increase in the number of district councils in the country and I would like my district, Mpongwe, to also be divided into two so that we can be allocated more resources, as we will then have two constituencies instead of one. When we fully devolve power to the districts, the people will be able to prioritise the programmes to be implemented in their respective areas using the resources that will be allocated. 

Sir, on many occasions, we have called for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to be increased and for it to be controlled by us. We have also heard that countries like Kenya and Uganda, which borrowed the concept of the CDF from us are doing much better than us. However, people in this country have already spoken against the emoluments for hon. Members of Parliament.In the face of all this and the budget cuts, where will we find the resources for the provincial assemblies?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: We just considered the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure in which we have noted a reduction in funding to the provinces simply because the country’s resources are inadequate. 

Mr Chairperson, we have also been talking about diversifying our economy in order to improve it. In order for us to do that, we need to raise more revenue for our Treasury. For example, most of the development that we have seen in all the corners of the country has been financed by revenue from copper production on the Copperbelt. At least, there is a tarred road from Lusaka to every other province. There is also infrastructure in every province. If there was a policy to retain resources in the provinces in which they were generated, some provinces would not be developed to the levels they are today. 

Mr Kambwili: Correct!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, when we were considering the budget for the Ministry of Agriculture, I stated that the ministry should divide the country into agricultural zones according to the agricultural activities that can best be undertaken in each area so that we improve the economies of respective areas. 

Mr Chairperson, I have heard people say that our Constitution should stand the test of time. The American Constitution is one that has achieved that feat. However, different American administrations have been improving it through amendments. Our Draft Constitution has some clauses that would be very difficult to manage even if the country had a lot of money. As it is said, the weight of a load is only felt by the person carrying it. So, if the nation’s resource envelope is expands, I do not see a reason we will not improve the Constitution by incorporating the clause on provincial assemblies. As we consider the provisions in the Draft Constitution and what the hon. Minister of Justice has said, we should bear that in mind. When a person sets priorities and starts with the first, it does not mean that the others are useless. We have to take a single step at a time until we cover the full distance. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: In my view, there are several things that we need in our respective areas. I know that I have been one of the most vocal persons in this Session in an effort to speak for the people of Mpongwe to get things done for them. The most pressing issue has been the Mpongwe/Machiya Road, which has, thankfully, been provided for in the 2016 Budget. So, I am happy that the project will commence in the first quarter of 2016. However, I would like to see more roads worked on in Mpongwe. So, I would not be happy to ask for money on behalf of my people and be told that I cannot have it because it has gone towards paying allowances for Hon. Kufuna, for instance. 

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: I would rather the money is used to implement the Decentralisation Policy. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2007, the late former President, Dr Mwanawasa, SC., warned of an impending mealie meal price increase. I asked how he could boldly make such a statement because, as far as I was concerned, it amounted to political suicide. His response was that people needed to be told the truth that the price of mealie would go up. He had realised that it would have been bad for him to pretend that all would be well. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe:Similarly, to state that we currently do not have adequate resources to establish provincial assemblies, in my view, is a bold move. So, as much as it is a good clause, let us shelve it temporarily. When we improve our economy, we can reinstate it.  

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, as a Member of Parliament, I want the CDF to be increased. If it could be increased to K5 million, for instance, we can forego the provincial assemblies. In fact, I would be very happy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: I would be the happiest Member of Parliament if my council was capacitated to provide the services provided for under the Local Government Act. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Currently, we are failing to provide most of the services stipulated in the Act because of a lack of resources. Even in cooking nshima, one does not use a very big pot or drum when one has only a 2 kg mealie meal. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: One has to measure the water against the mealie meal available. Otherwise, one will end up with porridge instead of nshima.

Laughter

Mr Mwale:Mwaona manje?

Mr Namulambe: So, let us not be self-centred. Instead, let us look at ourselves as people who should govern. I know that even in a home there are times when one cannot afford a 2 kg of beef and settles for beans to meet the protein requirement. My saying this does not mean that beans is bad relish. It simply means that we have to be proactive and see the pros and cons. Let us be forward-looking in our approach to this issue because there are more progressive provisions in the Draft Constitution that will please the people of Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I had announced that I would allow two hon. Members from each grouping plus an Independent hon. Member to debate. However, I have received communication from both my right and my left that two from each grouping will equal too many debaters. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: If some of you think that the suggestion to reduce the number of debaters is wrong, then, I will stick to my earlier decision.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to express the views of the people of Luena on the proposed amendment to the Draft Constitution.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice says that we should shelve the provision on provincial assemblies because it is too costly. However, its cost implications depend on the angle from which you look at it. Whilst some people would see it as a cost, others would not. As it has been said, those who think that education is too costly should try ignorance. There is another adage that encourages us to imagine the cost of ignorance. So, if the hon. Minister thinks that having such a provision ...

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: If you think democracy is expensive, try dictatorship.

Ms Imenda: ... is costly, I would like to tell him that not having it will lead us backwards. There is a reason the people of Zambia want the provincial assemblies. Just as some people are of the view taking a child to school is too costly while others see it as an investment, I look at this provision in the Draft Constitution as an investment.

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order, on my right! 

Ms Imenda: It is an investment because we are laying the foundation for future economic emancipation, prosperity and promotion of innovation for the people who are supposed to constitute the provincial assembly.

Mr Chairperson, the disabled were supposed to be included in the proposed assemblies. For example, I know a blind, but very intelligent man who could serve as a member of a provincial assembly. Currently, we are wasting that intelligence. In the current first-past-the-post system of constituency or ward contests, he cannot make it, and there are many others like him. If they were given an opportunity at the provincial level, we could bring out thebest in them and promote innovation, which leads to prosperity. 

Sir, allow me to talk about using investment to realise future economic benefits. Let me give the example of where I come from because it is a situation with which I am familiar. When the forests, fisheries, national parks and other natural resources were under the care of the traditional leadership in the Western Province, in our case, in the Litunga, the resources were better protected. However, once the management of the resources was transferred to the Government, all hell broke loose and everyone is rushing to the province to harvest the trees that we protected. We had been sacrificing and using biogas to preserve the trees because we were advanced in our economic thinking and knew that the trees were an investment. The Government took control of everything, but look at what is happening now? Is the Central Government benefiting from the trees that are being harvested? No! Only a few corrupt people are benefitting. Who is issuing the logging licences? If we had provincial assemblies, the management of the forests would revert to the local leadership. I have given the example of the Western Province, but the same applies to other areas. For example, the people of the Eastern Province would be able to take care of their Mukula Tree and benefit from it while the people of Luapula would invest in fisheries and make laws at the provincial level that would enable them to reap the full benefits and create wealth. 

Mr Chairperson, there is no fish anymore in the Western Province because everything has been centralised. The local leadership has been rendered powerless to prevent bad fishing methods because the power to do so is centralised here, in Lusaka. As a result, we just watch helplessly as people use bad fishing methods because there is nothing we can do about. If the provision on provincial assemblies is retained, then, the people will make and implement their own laws to get the best out of the fishing industry. They will also be able to punish wrongdoers.

Sir, we used to have national parks in the Western Province. I will keep talking about the Western Province because that is where I come from and that is environment I know best.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: The Liuwa and Sioma Ngwezi national parks used to be well stocked with wildlife. However, the Central Government decided to give freedom fighters leeway to hunt in them and the freedom fighters exterminated our wildlife, leaving us with nothing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: If the management of the parks was left at local level, the freedom fighters would have been told to leave the animals alone.

Mr Chairperson, the provincial assembly would have cured the longstanding controversy of the Barotseland Agreement, and the Government is being given the opportunity to deal with it through the proposed mechanism, but the hon. Minister is throwing it away. Does he want the controversy to go on so that he can continue ...

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Imenda: ... arresting the people? By the way, today ...

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Imenda!

You see, we are talking about the provincial assemblies. So, please, let us base our debate on that. For my colleagues on the right, if you want to consult, it is better you write a note to the Clerk of the National Assembly, but bear in mind that I am not under her instructions.

Continue, Hon. Imenda.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imenda: Sir, I am talking about how the longstanding issue of the Barotseland Agreement can be resolved using a provincial assembly, which would make its own laws to address the challenges particular to that province. Why would anyone want to come and talk about the Barotseland Agreement at Central Government if the people of the Western Province have been empowered to look after their own resources and make their own laws? So, all I am saying is that a provincial assembly would have cured this problem once and for all.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: The people would also be able to implement policies and laws at the local level and monitor them without waiting for anyone. That way, people can create wealth.

Sir, to me, this Constitution-making process is a Constitution-mockery process because after wasting so much money, this Government wants to throw everything away. The only difference between the Draft Constitution and the current Constitution are provisions like the one on provincial assemblies, 50 per cent plus one and the Presidential running mate. If these are thrown away, then, the hon. Minister of Justice should just withdraw this whole document ... 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: … so that we continue with the current Constitution because it is not different from the Draft one in any other respect, save for the money that has been spent on drafting the one we are considering.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Sir, let us just throw this document away and carry on with our business as usual. This Constitution-making process is like a stillborn baby, like somebody said. From the beginning, it did not even have a legal framework. It was initiated under the Inquiries Act. Is that how a Constitution is made? See what is happening now. We are now coming up with amendments that nullify what the people had recommended. The people of Luena sent me to tell this House that they are watching whatever is happening. They will be watching as this House will vote against their recommendations. They will even look at the division lists and know that this Government wasted their time and resources by spending money that should have gone to the construction of roads in Luena to a process to come up with a document that it has now decided to dishonour.  

Mr Livune: That is right!

Ms Imenda: Why did this Government do that? In fact, the people of Luena are saying that if this Government wants to throw away all their ideas, then, it should give them back their share of the money spent on this process so that they invest it on their roads.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, what is new about the concept of provincial assemblies? Is there not a local Parliament in Scotland? Have we not copied all our political structures from the British? Why are we now looking at this issue as though it were a four-letter word? If Scotland could have its own Parliament, what is wrong with the Eastern, Southern and Western provinces having their own assemblies so that they deal with their own issues? 

Sir, today being the United Nations (UN) Human Rights Day, it is unfortunate to see this Government flout the people’s rights to decide on their future.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Ms Imenda: The people on that side are saying “No” to what the people of Zambia want. They are flouting the people’s human rights. The people have the right to determine how they are governed, but the Government is denying them that right. 

Sir, the people have sent me to tell this Government that they are watching. That is the message I have from the people of Luena to that side (indicatingthe right) of the House, especially the hon. Minister of Justice. I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to throw away this document so that we go back to the current Constitution.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I am most grateful for the opportunity to debate the amendments to the Draft Constitution proposed by the hon. Minister of Justice. 

Sir, I recall that at some point, the hon. Minister of Justice made this House believe that the Draft Constitution to be presented to this House would be the result of a people-driven process. He even used the Latin phrase, ‘Vox populi, vox Dei’, which he translated as, “The voice of the people is the voice of God.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Now, just a few months later, he has forgotten that voice of God, the voice of the people. However, it is better for those of us who still believe in God to believe in the voice of the people. The proposed amendments we are considering do not amount to what the people of Zambia said. The people have been consistent in demanding the devolution of power and decentralisation. They may have said it in different ways, such using vernacular expressions, but the point is that they have been consistent right from the beginning. If we went through all the records of the previous Constitution review commissions, we would find that the people of Zambia have spoken consistently in favour of devolution. So, standing on the hon. Minister of Justice’s own statement that the voice of the people is the voice of God, I ask him to withdraw the proposed amendment because it goes against the assurances he made to this august House. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, it is very important for us to uphold the clause on the provincial assemblies or whatever name we may wish to call them, as recommended by the people of Zambia. They must not be removed for any reason and, in this regard, I adopt the contributions of Hon. Nkombo and Hon. Imenda as my own. 

Mr Chairperson, it is also important to note that there have been many attempts by us to decentralise, but all have failed. When I started work in the early 2000s, I was told that I was being employed in the local authority so that the decentralisation process could be enhanced. Several years later, this Government is still talking about revising the Decentralisation Policy. So, I suggest that the solution lies in our agreeing that governance structures and functions must be driven closer to the people, and the provision on provincial assemblies is one that could have assured us of that being realised. 

Sir, there has been an attempt to increase the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) as opposed to increasing the level of participation of the people in governance. However, the CDF is just a very small component in the cycle of the people’s representation. Beyond the CDF, there are core issues that affect our people on which they want to speak for themselves. My colleagues have mentioned the issue of the Barotseland Agreement and it is true that such matters would have partly been dealt with by the provision we want to do away with. The people want to decide for themselves because they are tired of our over-centralised power structure. They have been speaking about reducing the powers of the President because the concentration of too much power under the Presidency is one of the ways in which power has been over-concentrated at the centre, yet the people have been asking us to take power closer to them.

 Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, we have had sad incidences resulting from the over-centralisation of power. For example, had there been a provincial assembly in the Southern Province, the realignment of some districts with other provinces could have been deliberated upon and the province consulted, as opposed to one person decreeing that a certain district is no longer part of the Southern Province, but part of the Central Province and that a portion of land has been realigned with Lusaka Province. Those decisions still affect the people of the province today, yet the people did not have any voice over them. So, we need to broaden the structures of governance and take them closer to where the people are.

 Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I want to go further and argue that the centralisation of power was done at the time of Independence, when the population of Zambia was very small. Probably, the over-centralised system made sense then. Over the years, however, the population of this country has grown and it is only logical that the governance structures must begin to go where the people are. What is bad about one region having meetings under an organ of governance that speaks for the region and its interests? Decisions like the creation of the offices of the District Commissioner (DC), the Provincial Permanent Secretary (PS) or the Provincial Minister are a clear indication that there is a problem in the governance of regions due to our over-centralised structure. However, instead of centralising regional functions under the DCs, Provincial PSs or Provincial Ministers, who are political appointees accountable only to the appointing authority, we should allow the people to exercise that power directly.

 Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, this Constitution should not be used to undermine democracy and decentralisation. It has been argued that we are not yet ready to give power back to the people because our economic situation cannot sustain such a move. That kind of reasoning is faulty because the economy can improve tomorrow or tomorrow as long as we manage the country properly.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Did we amend the Constitution to give power back to the people when the economy was doing well? No! In any case, when the Government mismanages the economy and takes advantage of the people of Zambia instead of giving them the right to govern themselves or speak for themselves, that is getting things done using a dubious method. The Government has, firstly, destroyed the economy and, secondly, it wants to use its economic power to disenfranchise, disturb or, indeed, disadvantage the people, which is not being honest or sincere.

Sir, although we are not lawyers, we have been told that a Constitution must stand the test of time, which means that it is supposed to continue to be relevant to the people’s interests long after its enactment. Is the Patriotic Front (PF) Government saying that it wants to make the economy become worse and worse every day? Must our aspiration not be that of improving the economy?

Mr Speaker, there was once an hon. Member of Parliament who used to say that we would, one day, wake up and find that the PF has run way.

 Laughter

Mr Belemu: I am beginning to think that the PF is about to run away from the will of the people of Zambia. The proposed amendments are actually a departure from the will of the people. The people of Zambia have told the Government what they want, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: … but the PF is running away from their voice. Why is it scared of the voice and will of the people of Zamia? What is it that the Government wants to hide from us? What does the PF want to achieve by running away from the voice of the people of Zambia? I warn the PF that it is not that easy to run away from the voice of the people. No matter where it runs to, the voice of Zambians, which has been very consistent right from the first Constitution review commission, the Chona Commission, will catch up with it. No wonder, the late former President, Mr Chilufya, instructed the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambia Constitution not to re-invent the wheel, but rather just look at the reports of previous commissions and summarise their recommendations. He understood that the people’s positions on some key issues have been consistent, and one of the key issues has been that of governance.

Mr Chairperson, I to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to consider withdrawing the proposed amendment.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, the PF has been sloganeering about giving ‘power to the people’. Let it demonstrate to us that it actually believes in that slogan.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: It is not right for a group of people to sit in one corner of the Debating Chamber and consider themselves wiser that the rest of Zambians by disregarding what the majority of Zambians have said.

Sir, the calls for secession will not end until the issues of governance are resolved through localised mechanisms and people are given genuine power. Mark my words, the Constitution-making process will not end today because the current process has been a waste of time, effort and resources, as the Government has not heeded the voice of Zambians.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: What we are doing here is an exercise in futility because tomorrow the voice of Zambians will remain consistent in demanding that more powers be devolved to them as opposed to investing it in an individual or a collection of individuals at the centre.

Hon. Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, I am the voice of the people of Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency and the majority of Zambians. Those who care about history should look back to the Mung’omba Commission, to which I made submissions, and see that my voice has been consistent. I was just a Public Service employee then, not a Member of Parliament, but I said the same things that I am now telling the PF Government. So, mark my words because the proposed amendment will not triumph over the will of the people. As long as the people have not been given the power to govern themselves, they will keep agitating to that end. So, my position on this matter is that we let the people govern this country, as opposed to a collection of a few individuals doing so.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, it is extremely shocking and surprising that the hon. Minister of Justice can come to the House and propose to delete the people’s will on account of his Government’s defeatist attitude resulting from its failure to manage the economy of the country. In a democratic environment, people elect leaders so that they can competently generate the resources that can be used to meet the cost of honouring the will of the people and meeting their needs. When the leaders fail to do that, they are not re-elected.

Mr Sianga: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Clearly, the justification for deleting the clause on provincial assemblies in the Draft Constitution is an unfortunate admission of failure on the part of our colleagues who are in charge of the governance of this country, ...

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and I am sure that the people are listening to and assessing our debates. So, I can confidently say that their voice will prevail next year and they will vote for competent people who will generate the resources needed to realise their will, as embodied in the Republican Constitution they have proposed.

Mr Chairperson, twenty-four years after our country’s transition to multi-party democracy in 1991, we should grow our democracy, not stagnate it. The people expressed their will to grow our democracy and broaden the mechanism for democratic participation in the Draft Constitution, among other avenues, through the establishment of provincial assemblies. Our people realise that to grow our democracy, we need a broad-based participatory system in which more people are brought into the orbit of decision-making so that they can increasingly control their own affairs. That is how things should be in a democracy. Clearly, the proposal for the establishment of provincial assemblies reflects the principle that in a democracy, one should not be a spectator. The hon. Minister of Justice should understand that democracy is not a spectating game, but a participatory one. That is why when there is voter apathy during elections, all of us worry, and ask what went wrong and what should be done so that more people can participate in electing their leadership. The proposed establishment of provincial assemblies is also meant to ensure that more people participate in the decision-making process as a way of growing democratic governance. So, any serious-minded person who strongly believes in democracy should embrace the principle of greater participation of our people in decision-making for their development and provincial assemblies are one forum that can facilitate that.

Sir, the hon. Minister knows that American democracy, which is one of the oldest in the world today, was founded on the principle of moving away from democratic centralism to democratic localism.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Centralism is when power is concentrated at the centre, like it currently is in this country, while localisation is when power is devolved …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … to the people. In a democracy, power should be localised. That is the rationale behind the quest for provincial assemblies. Once we have assemblies in our respective provinces, we will enhance the basic tenets of democracy, such as accountability, transparency, effectiveness and efficiency, which we have been developing since 1991, because our people will be able to hold our civil servants accountable …

Mr Mtolo: Yes!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … at the local level. They will question the civil servants if their plans are workable or their policies relevant to local needs. They will also hold them accountable for the money they manage. Therefore, if the Patriotic Front (PF) Government deletes the clause on provincial assemblies from the Draft Constitution, it will go against the will of the people to grow democracy, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and that will be anti-democratic behaviour.

Mr Chairperson, no cost is too high in growing democracy. Therefore, we must find the money to grow our democracy. Our economy will not remain stagnant fifty or twenty years from now and, obviously, Zambians will, at some point, elect competent, efficient, visionary and strategic leaders who will utilise the country’s God-given resources to generate enough money to meet the needs of the people and effectively enhance actualise their choice of governance mechanisms as reflected in their proposed Constitution. So, the hon. Minister’s defeatist argument that we have no money for provincial assemblies cannot stand. It simply means that his Government does not have what it takes to generate resources internally and prudently manage the little resources available …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … in order to meet the cost of honouring the will of the people, and the people of Zambia are listening. I am sure that, next year, they will put in place a competent team ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … of leaders, who will undo what the PF Government is doing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: The PF might have the numbers, but what it is doing will definitely be undone by a more competent leadership, starting next year.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for affording me this opportunity to comment on the clause under debate.

Sir, from outset, I want to state, for the record, that this is not the first time this institution is participating in amending this Draft Constitution. In 2012, the following distinguished people represented this august House in this process: 

Hon. D. Mukanga, MP, Chief Whip
Hon. F. Mutati, MP, then Leader of the Opposition
His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, then Deputy Chief Whip
Hon. G. D. Nkombo, MP
Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, MP
Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, MP
Hon. S. T. Masebo, MP
Hon. P. Mucheleka, MP
Hon. S. Kampyongo, MP
Hon. Imenda, MP
Hon. Hamududu, MP ...

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

Earlier, we ruled that we would not entertain points of order. However, hon. Members now want to raise them, which makes things difficult for the Chair. Perhaps, you can help us avoid this situation by not debating individuals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, no!

The Chairperson: I think that was Hon. Mwiimbu’s concern.

You may continue, please.

Mr Kampyongo: To the contrary, Mr Chairperson, I am not discussing individuals, but a special Committee that was selected to deal with the issue of the Constitution. The other members of the Committee were:

Hon. C. Namugala, MP
Hon. Harry Kalaba, MP
Hon. Dr E. Kazonga, MP.

Mr Chairperson, I have with me the report of that select Committee.

Mr Kalaba: Even Hon. Mwiimbu was there, sure?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, let me quote the report’s recommendations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members on my right!

Let us allow the hon. Minister to debate. When you were debating, your colleagues on the right were quiet. So, I think that it is only fair that we let him debate too.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the report is National Assembly property. Under the heading “Comments and Recommendations by the National Assembly of Zambia on the Legislature and other Provisions Impacting on the Legislature in the First Draft Constitution of the Republic of Zambia of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution,” the Committee made the following comments:

“Clause 153 makes a provision for the establishment of a provincial assembly in each province and its composition”.

The report, then, states the following:

“The National Assembly observes that the composition of the provincial assemblies includes Members of Parliament as well as Provincial Ministers. It notes that in most jurisdictions, members of the provincial assemblies are elected representatives while Members of Parliament and other persons holding public office are excluded from being members of the assemblies.

“The National Assembly further observes that it would be difficult for Members of Parliament to be members of provincial assemblies as well as district councils as provided for under Clause 214.

“It notes that, currently, Members of Parliament have difficulties attending two district council meetings due to demands of their parliamentary duties. The National Assembly, therefore, recommends that the provisions creating the provincial assemblies be deleted.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: “In addition, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: “… it views the creation of this structure as a costly venture …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: … and that will create confusion in its operations, owing to its unclear and duplicated functions, which other existing structures, such as the National Assembly …”

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: … what I am saying is on record and it was shocking to hear some hon. Members who were members of the Committee that produced this report oppose its recommendations. No wonder, the people of Zambia have complained about us.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Member: They are not serious!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, our political system is that of representative democracy. Therefore, all of us here were elected by our people. So, sometimes, it surprises me …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Hammer, hammer!

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, you are making it difficult for me by causing disorder in the House when I am calling for order.

You may continue, Hon. Kampyongo.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your protection. 

Sir, when we were elected, we were given a mandate to represent our people and work for them. Therefore, what we are doing today is exactly what the people of Zambia elected us to do.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: We all know that not all Zambians understand what we are doing because most of the people we represent, especially the villagers in Shiwang’andu, Inondola and Mukwikile, do not understand English. However, they trust me, their representative, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: … to read this document and interpret it to them in a language they will understand.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: So, if our colleagues on your left say that politicians should never be party to this process, then, what do they mean? For instance, even if we were to hold a referendum, all of us on this side and our colleagues on the other side would be the ones to participate. That is reason we engaged our colleagues Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) colleagues, who have been consistent and were part of the important Committee that dealt with this issue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: We asked them to join us in pushing the issues we had agreed upon. In this regard, I am grateful to the MMD hon. Members, who will go down in the annals of history for their consistency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: They did not depart from the collective agreements we made over this document.

Hon. Government Member:Ba Prof. Lungwangwa!

Mr Kampyongo: No one should even demonise them for standing on the right side of the divide. We are the true representatives of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, as Minister of Local Government and Housing, my ministry is responsible for implementing the Decentralisation Policy. We are doing taking governance closer to the people and we believe that decentralisation is a bottom-down process.

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members: Bottom-down?

Mr Kampyongo: These assemblies our colleagues are talking about …

Mr Kambwili: Bottom-up.

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members: From bottom-down?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we are saying that devolution of the governance system should be from bottom going up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: We have Ward Development Committees (WDCs), whose work we should enhance or empower because the wards are where the people are.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kampyongo: We also have the district councils.

Hon. Government Members: The local authorities, yes.

Mr Kampyongo: Let us empower …

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kampyongo: … and strengthen them.

Hon. Government Members: Yeah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Saying “Hmm” or “Yes” to indicate assent is not parliamentary ... 

Interruption

The Chairperson: … or good.

Laughter

The Chairperson: The right expression is “Hear, hear!” not “Yah, yah!”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: You may continue, Hon. Kampyongo.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, that is how you take governance closer to the people.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Business suspended from 2000 hours until 2130 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I sincerely thank you for providing us with dinner. Indeed, we needed to be re-energised as we serve the people of Zambia.

Sir, before business was suspended, I was had just finished talking about how my ministry is taking governance closer to the people by implementing the Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Chairperson, we should also not forget the cost associated with the assemblies. Besides that, the decisions of the provincial assemblies will still be subjected to the National Assembly’s approval. So, what will the provincial assemblies actually cure? 

Sir, some people have argued that the provincial assemblies will be more engendered and representative of citizens with special needs. However, all our political parties can have deliberate mechanisms for representing special interests in the political process. That is how we should progress. We cannot hide our partisan interests behind the appeal for balanced political representation. It does not work like that.

Sir, some hon. Members also argued that the proportional majoritarian representation is a better political system. Alas! 

Mr Chairperson, before I conclude my debate, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Alas, what? Complete your statement.

Mr Kampyongo: … I want to sincerely thank the able and gallant hon. Members who sat for more than two weeks deliberating on these issues.

Mr Lubinda: Who was the Chairperson?

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, I thank all of them, including, posthumously or belatedly, Mr P. Mucheleka.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: These people dedicated their time to coming up with the recommendations to which I referred earlier. 

Sir, it has been said that honesty is a moral imperative for all of us who are elected to serve other citizens. Consistency is an important virtue that should not be sacrificed for anything, including political expediency. So, my appeal to my MMD colleagues is that they should consistently walk with us, as we have started, so that we can make history for the people of Zambia whom we have been serving because we are not here to represent ourselves.

Mr Muntangainterjected.

Mr Kampyongo: I also want to thank the United Party for National Development (UPND) for being part of these deliberations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: In a democracy, you cannot always agree on everything. You can agree to differ, but still find common ground. So, dear colleagues, let us start from here in the process of making history. I am happy that the hon. Minister of Justice went slightly against our recommendation of shelving that clause for a while and, instead, asked for its deletion. Just like Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa said, the economy might be in bad shape good today, but improve in the future. However, the law does not wait for the economy to improve before it can be enacted. So, we would breach the laws even as we enact them if we allowed a provision that we cannot abide by on account of our resource limitations. It is good enough that the Ministry of Justice has committed itself to revisiting this matter when the economy improves.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson: Order!

It appears that the dinner did us some good.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to express my profound gratitude to Hon. Kampyongo, the Minister of Local Government and Housing, ...

Mr Kalaba:Mwaume sana.

Dr Simbyakula: ... for reminding this House about the collective submissions it made to the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution.

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: The document was officially submitted to the Technical Committee as the official position of the National Assembly.

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Kalaba: I was part of that team. So, I can confirm that it was.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the document is in the public domain. The amendments we have moved are consistent with the collective position of the House, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: ... both your left and right. So, my hon. Colleagues who have very forcefully urged me to withdraw the amendments are merely politicking and playing to the gallery.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Jack Mwiimbu.

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, as a responsible Government, we must only implement feasible programmes. Currently, there is no infrastructural support for the provincial assemblies and we do not want our people to be meeting under trees.

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, we should do what is feasible. Therefore, we have asked to put this issue aside until the time we will have the economic stamina to actualise it. We will review it and see how best we can effect it for it to produce the desired results, that is to say, the devolution of power in a meaningful way.

Mr Chairperson, we must set priorities for our Constitution-making process. The people of Zambia have consistently set priorities for this process. They have identified the legal provisions that go down to the root of the governance systems in our country. These are the provisions that will entrench democracy and political legitimacy in Zambia. The 50 per centplus one presidential winning threshold has been retained in the Bill. This has been the wish of Zambians expressed consistently to the Mvunga, Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba commissions, the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) and Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution.

Mr Mwiimbuinterjected.

Interruptions

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, even the Patriotic Front (PF) has been very consistent on the in its call for this clause to be in our Constitution.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Hon. Members will recall that during the run up to the 2006 General Elections, the PF made an effort to move an amendment to the Constitution to incorporate this clause. Alas! That did not yield the desired result.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members:Awe! Sit down!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I fell to understand why the people I allowed to debate want me to stop the hon. Minister from responding to their debates. In all fairness, I think that we should allow him to debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, by moving this amendment Bill in this House, the nation, under the stewardship of our Jubilee President, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: … has arrived at a place it has not been before. As we all know, the task of a leader is to take his people from where they are to where they have not been.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Just a moment ago, this House approved the clause on dual citizenship. For the first time, our compatriots living in the Diaspora will be able to reclaim their rightful place as Zambian citizens. Further, we will look at the Presidential Running Mate clause in a few moments. These are the priority issues that Zambians are concerned with, and we have brought them here today. We have not tampered with what is contained in the Draft Constitution. All we have said is that the provisions on proportional representation and provincial assemblies should wait for a more opportune time.

Mr Kalaba: While we consult.

Dr Simbyakula: In the meantime, we have decided to deal with the critical issues that are dear to Zambians.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

It appears that there is something wrong with some of the people here. When Hon. Sayifwanda, Hon. Imenda and others were debating, nobody raised any objections. Therefore, I do not see why we should now have a problem. Why do we not want to allow the hon. Minister to debate? If some of you still want to debate, you will have the opportunity to do so on another clause. That is a rule of the game.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members on your left who debated earlier said that this Government has mutilated the Draft Constitution.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: That is most unfortunate ...

Mr Kambwili:Imwe naimwe, techa kwasuka chilya. 

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: … because thepeople of Zambian are listening to us and following these debates.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Kambwili!

Please, leave the Debating Chamber. You can come back after ten minutes.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, he should not come back.

Mr Kambwilileft the Chamber.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kalaba:Kwashala Livune.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the Executive has presented the Draft Constitution in its entirety. At the risk of repeating myself, I emphasise that the critical issues that at the root of our governance systems, namely, the 50 per centplus onepresidential winning threshold, the Presidential running mate and dual citizenship provisions, have been retained. We are merely putting the provisions on provincial assemblies and proportional representation aside for further reflection. As Hon. Kampyongo has said, we want to review the modalities for their implementation. We do not just want to increase the numbers in this House, but do so in a manner that will be meaning so that we can even meet the requirements of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Gender and Development. We have to stipulate the level of representation for the disabled, youths, women and other special groupings in a proportional representation system. All these issues require a lot of reflection on our part. 

Mr Chairperson, let me end by thanking all those who have debated this matter. 

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 4, in Article 45, on page 9, in lines 32 to 33, be amended by the deletion of the comma and the words “a provincial assembly”, put and the House voted.

Ayes – 110

Mr C. K. B. Banda

Mrs E. M. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr C. Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Ching’imbu

Mr Chipungu

Mr Chisala

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mrs Chungu

Mr Chungu

Mr Evans

Mrs Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Mr Kazabu

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr Lungu

Col. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama

Mr Mwimba H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Muteteka

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Dr Scott

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Prof. Willombe

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – 38 

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu
    
Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Muchima

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Ndalamei

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr P. Phiri

Ms Sayifwanda

Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions –Nil 

Amendment agreed to. Clause 4, amended accordingly.

Clause 4(45), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 47 (Electoral Systems)

The Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Article 47, on page 10:

(a)    in lines 16 to 19 
by the deletion of clause (2) and the substitution therefor of the following:
“(2) Elections to the National Assembly shall be conducted under the first-past-the-post electoral system in accordance with Article 68.”

(b)    in lines 20 to 22
by the deletion of Clause (3);

(c)    in line 23
by the renumbering of Clause (4) as Clause (3); and

(d)    in line 26
by the renumbering of Clause (5) as Clause (4).

Mr Chairperson, this particular Article is basically deleting the proportional representation to leave only the first-past-the-post mode.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, as we all know, proportional representation was discussed yesterday. We did consider the merits and demerits. Essentially the provision in its current form does not provide sufficient comfort as to how gender equity, representation of the youths and the disabled will be dealt with. So, in order to give ourselves an opportunity to refine this statute further, we are proposing that it be deferred to the future for further consideration. As I have said, we discussed this in detail yesterday, thus I do not expect much debate on it.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, as I debate this Motion and the amendment, I just want to put on record the unfortunate happenings which occurred in Vubwi this afternoon which are related to elections. 

Mr Chairperson, this afternoon, our Provincial Chairperson, Mr Thole, the Post Newspaper reporter, Mr Peter Sukwa, one Feel Free Radio Station presenter, Mr Kelvin Phiri and a youth chairperson, Mr Mbuzi, were shot at and are currently in Mwami Hospital with very serious injuries.

Mr Livune: The PF.

Mr Mwiimbu: They were shot at and injured by Patriotic Front (PF) cadres in Vubwi.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: I want to put that on record for the sake of the nation to know.

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I will be failing in my duties, if I do not respond to the issues that were raised by Hon. Kampyongo…

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … on the Floor of the House pertaining to the report of the Parliamentary Committee.

Mr Sikazwe: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are all aware that Parliament is one of the stakeholders to the Constitution-making process. Parliament was requested to make submissions to the technical committee. The report which Hon. Kampyongo referred to, was never laid on the Table of this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not a report of the Committee of the House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: It was a report that was sent to the Technical Committee.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu:  That is the position.

Further, Mr Chairperson, the hon. Mr Speaker, this afternoon made a very good ruling when he stated that a Committee Reports pertaining to other issues apart from ordinary reports of a committee, are not binding on anyone.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: They are not binding on any hon. Member of this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It, therefore, follows that me, Jack Mwiimbu, who sat on that Committee, never agreed with the contents of that report.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Ah!  

Interruptions    

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, further,...

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, Parliament, despite being one of the stakeholders, did not manage to influence the people of Zambia to reject provincial assemblies. The Committee that presented the report on behalf of Parliament was defeated. The majority of Zambians wanted provincial assemblies and we lost. Since we are in a democracy, we follow the majority.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, we are here to follow what the majority of Zambians want. The majority of Zambians want the provincial assemblies and proportional representation.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Kampyongo said that a Committee report from Parliament supported proportional representation and not provincial assemblies. On this account, why are they rejecting proportional representation? If the report supported proportional representation, let them support it because that is their argument. Why are they going against the report of Mr Speaker, as alleged by Hon. Kampyongo?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That particular report also supported the selection of Cabinet outside Parliament ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... in order to enhance the separation of powers. If they are going to rely on that report, why are they rejecting certain things? 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, that particular report agreed on certain issues and disagreed on others. Why are they now cherry-picking on issues which they want? Why are they rejecting proportional representation which was recommended by the so called your Committee? Why are they rejecting the appointing of Cabinet outside Parliament which was accepted by your Committee?

Hon. UPND Members: Answer!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, if they sincerely believe in that report, they should vote with us on proportional representation.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, ...

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

I have ruled out points of order.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, just give him the point of order.

The Chairperson: No, I will not give it to him because I am deciding.

Laughter

The Chairperson: If I give him, the next time, you will also rise on a point of order. So, I have to be fair to all of you.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Continue, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, it would appear that our friends have not read this Draft Bill. It has a provision for equity between men and women in decision-making.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If this is the position, it follows, therefore, that even under proportional representation there will be equity in accordance with this Bill. Further, Mr Chairperson, under the Gender Equity and Equality Act which we passed, there is a provision that there must be equity in positions of authority in the Government. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: By refusing this particular provision, the Government has reneged on its promise and on the Act that we just passed. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We need to pass laws which will support the operationalisation of the Act which we passed. I am aware that those who came to submit before the Committee where saying that the Gender Equity and Equality Bill would not achieve its intentions because the Constitution of Zambia had not been changed. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the whole Gender Equity and Equality Act has been rendered useless because they have rejected the inclusion of a very pertinent issue in the Constitution (Amendment) Bill.

Mr Mwiimbu: This is what they have done.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the people of Zambia listened when there was a submission that it would be costly to have district assemblies. They agreed that there must only be provincial assemblies to save costs. There was an example of a country in East Africa which was given. This country is Kenya. It went for county and provincial assemblies and this is why it is complaining. However, we have learnt from Kenya that we can only have provincial assemblies. This is the position.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The issue of proportional representation is a matter of paramount importance to all the provinces of Zambia. 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are all aware that proportional representation was going to ensure that our chiefs are represented in the provincial assemblies. It seems that the PF does not want our chiefs to sit on the provincial assemblies.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, three women were supposed to sit in the provincial assembly. I noticed that the female hon. Members of Parliament from the PF have said no to other women assuming authority.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what they done. Under proportional representation and provincial assemblies, there is a provision for the youth and the disabled to be represented.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The disabled will be annoyed that the PF Government will not allow them to be represented.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, proportional representation is not unique to Zambia. More than 50 per cent of countries in Africa use it. It is used in the United Kingdom (UK), the United States of America (USA) and the Scandinavian countries. Why are we refusing to let those who are underprivileged and cannot access Parliament through the first-past-the-post system to have their own voices heard in this House?

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no way that we are going to agree with them even if they have the numbers. I want to agree with Hon. Kampyongo who today revealed the secret. He told us that there is an alliance with the MMD-B. 

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: They have agreed to vote together confirming what we had been hearing ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... that the MMD-B is going to produce a running mate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: This is the reason they have been having secret meetings.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are also aware that the MMD-B has made representations that if the running mate Clause is amended, they will not support them. Since the MMD-B has threatened not to support them, they have decided to appease them and agree with the amendment to remove the clause for the President to punish the running mate. We shall see whether they are not going to withdraw that amendment. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, if they do not withdraw, it will be confirmation that they have no Vice-President material on their side.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: They have decided to import from the MMD-B. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, this is what they are going to do today. I am aware of those who have Vice-Presidential ambitions. They will shade kaleidoscopic tears because the position they have been eyeing has been given to the MMD-B, which will take over the PF.

Mr Chairperson, I support the retention of proportional representation. I have taken note of the agreement between MMD-B and the PF to provide a running mate. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for once again, giving me this opportunity to make my comments on the clause under deliberation. 

Sir, you said that honesty is a moral imperative for us who represent the people. The hon. Member who has just finished debating ...

Prof. Luo: And who is a lawyer.

Mr Kampyongo: ... said that he was part of the group of people who made recommendations to the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution. He agreed with certain things that have been said here. Before I go further, I will read part of the report concerning the clause we are discussing.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, let me quote part of the document entitled, Comments and Recommendations by the National Assembly of Zambia on the Legislature and other Provisions Impacting on the Legislature in the First Draft Constitution of the Republic of Zambia of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution. Mr Mwiimbu submitted as follows:

“Clause 135: Elections to National Assembly 

Clause 135 makes a provision for elections to the National Assembly to be conducted using the multi-member constituency proportional representation system prescribed under Clause 75.

Comments

The National Assembly notes that this is a substantial shift in the manner in which elections to the National Assembly are conducted. While Article 63 (2) of the current Constitution provides for the first-past-the-post system in single member constituencies, Clause 135 provides for a proportional representation system in multi-member constituencies. In addition, the proportional representation system employed is an open party list one rather than the more common closed party list one. In the proposed system, voters will vote for both the party and a particular candidate. 

This proposed system is a serious departure from what the voters are used to. In addition, the high illiteracy levels in the country make the open party list system challenging. 

The National Assembly observes that Clause 135 (4), which relates to ballot papers, does not make provisions for independent candidates. 

Observations and Recommendations

The National Assembly observes that multi-member constituency proportional representation system proposed for elections to the National Assembly is difficult to understand, and therefore, likely to confuse the electorate. 

It is further observed that this is a new system which had not been proposed by any previous Constitution-review processes undertaken by the country. In this regard, the National Assembly is of the opinion that by proposing a totally new system for election to the National Assembly, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution has gone beyond its mandate of utilising the recommendations contained in previous Constitution-review reports. 

In addition, it is noted that this system, which requires political parties as well as independent candidates to campaign in all the seats in a multi-member constituency, is skewed towards large parties which have a presence across the country. Thus, this has a potential to wipe out the presence of small parties and independents in the House because of the lack of structures and financial capacity to campaign in all the seats in a multi-member constituency. 

With regard to the allocation of seats, it is noted that the emphasis of distributing seats on the basis of the total number of votes attained by a candidate in the entire multi-member constituency has the potential to disadvantage candidates who are popular in seats with a few voters. This is because population dispersions differs in various seats, with some seats having more voters than others. 

The National Assembly further observes that the proposed system, which emphasises the performance of political parties in the elections, will result in Members of Parliament being delinked from constituencies. In this regard, Members would be less accountable to the people. 

The National Assembly does not have a problem with the first-past-the-post system employed in the current Constitution to warrant the drastic change to the electoral system being proposed in Clause 135. The National Assembly wishes to emphasise that while it is understood that one of the major objectives of the system is to do away with by-elections, which had proved costly to the country, legitimacy should not be sacrificed for this purpose. It is thus, proposed that the first-past-the-post be retained. 

In view of the foregoing, the National Assembly rejects the electoral system proposed in Clause 135 and instead recommends that a mixed-member proportional representation proposed in the National Constitution Conference (NCC) Draft Bill be adopted for elections to the National Assembly. 

Further, it is being recommended that to cater for groups that may not be adequately represented through the first-past-the-post system, a specified number of seats be distributed using the closed list proportional representation system.”

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the proposal which the hon. Minister has come with is exactly what is stated in this document I have just quoted. Hon. Jack Mwiimbu ...

Hon. Government Members: Was there! 

Mr Kampyongo: ...was part of this group which came up with the document. He likes making somersaults. He wants to ...

The Chairperson: Order!

The word ‘somersault’ is unparliamentary.  

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, I withdraw it and replace it with ...

Hon. Government Members: Gymnastics!

Mr Kampyongo: Without any remorse, he wants to stand here and deny having been part of the Committee which came up with this report. I remember vividly, Hon. Mwiimbu’s submission on this matter. He said that we should not allow people to come to Parliament ...

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, I need your protection ...

The Chairperson: Order!

I kept quiet because I did not hear what you said that attracted so much attention from the left. What did you say?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I remember vividly what the hon. Member of Parliament, who was on the Floor, …

Mr Mwale: Jack Mwiimbu!

Mr Kampyongo: … submitted on this matter. 

Mr Mwiimbu: When? 

Mr Kampyongo: His emphasis was that instead of us focusing on the mixed member proportional representation system of electing Members of Parliament, the progressive way would be to delineate our constituencies so that the people could be served effectively …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: … and so that representatives could be accountable to their electorate. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: I still emphasise that honesty is an imperative …

Mr Mwiimbuinterjected.

Mr Kampyongo: … moral aspect, which we should all have as we represent the people. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

The Chairperson: I will have one last hon. Member from my left debate before the hon. Minister winds up. 

Hon. Government Members: Mutelo!

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Muntanga, you have the Floor. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, this particular article which provides for the representation of the people through a majoritarian electoral system of electing the President of the Republic and a mixed member proportional representation system of electing Members of Parliament has been proposed for deletion. I am interested in the admission of the person who was reading the report, which I have not seen. This person agrees with the need for a mixed member proportional representation system. 

Mr Milambo: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, all the debaters were concerned about the representation of the disadvantaged groups such as the women, the disabled and the youth. We all supported this report and actually clapped in acceptance. If we claim consistency, why do we now want to remove this article? 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: And honesty!

Mr Muntanga: If we claim consistency and honesty, why should we change things to suit our positions today? Why should that be so? I thought that perhaps this mixed member proportional representation system would not be mentioned, but it has. Initially, they accepted this article, but now have changed their minds. Why are they not being honest? The report being talked about was not even tabled in the House, but all of you are now celebrating and dancing with regard to its contents. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Some people almost jumped out of their seats. I thought that because someone is short he could not jump. I think that I was wrong. When I looked up, I found he was off his seat. That is when I realised the level of excitement. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Why are we now changing? Why are we not being honest? 

Mr Chairperson, there are disabled people out there and groups that are disadvantaged. In here, we only have two, Hon. Livune and one other person on your right. I can only mention Hon. Livune because I do not want to offend the other man because may be he is not disabled. That being said, we want many others to be represented. 

Sir, I was shocked that a woman could stand up in this House and ask why we support the women whom she claims are cowards. I do not know where we are going. I know that because of the arrogance of numbers, they will do whatever they want to do to this document. However, when they somersault and change …

The Chairperson: Order! 

The word ‘somersault’ is unparliamentary. 

Mr Muntanga: I withdraw the word ‘somersault’ and replace it with the words ‘changing or flip flopping upside down’. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, why are they changing positions? All hon. Members who were referred to in here realised that this particular Committee’s report was not tabled. As far as I know, if it was not tabled to bind all of us, it cannot be referred to on the Floor of the House. 

Mr Nkombo: You cannot!

Mr Muntanga: Perhaps, there are new rules for this Parliament that I do not know about. There were reports that were prepared and not tabled here. You cannot bring a report that was not tabled before this House.  

Bishop Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: They should have been stopped. 

Mr Muntanga: There is a group of hon. Members of Parliament who made some recommendations outside the House. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Volunteers!

Mr Muntanga: Those were volunteers! 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: How do you bind us when we were not part of that Committee? 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: If Parliament was bound by it, bring the report here. This has always been the procedure. Study what binds Parliament. 

Mr Chairperson, for this particular clause, we should consider the disabled, the women, who needy help, and the youth.  People thought that possibly with this mixed member proportional representation system, we would all fit in. Alas, this is not to be. 

Mr Chairperson, this draft Constitution has several factors. We thought that the consideration of this clause would be shelved or deferred because there are several other issues connected to it. We also wanted to participate in their arrangement …

Mr Nkombo: With MMD!

Mr Muntanga: … with MMD A, B or C. We also wanted to share with you. 

I worry that our preamble has shifted from the original “We, the people of Zambia by our representatives, assembled in our Parliament” to simply “We, the people of Zambia,” but still recognising the superiority of God.  So, as hon. Members we should not claim to have powers which have not been given to us by the Constitution. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: The Preamble simply states “We, the people of Zambia”. After we enact it with their numbers, it will be the “We, the people of Zambia” and not “We, the people of Zambia by our representatives, assembled in our Parliament.”Yes, you have been given the power to legislate, but the people of Zambia will recall you. 

The various constituents will never forget that the people of Zambia assembled here. All of us assembled here represent the people of Zambia. This new Constitution does not recognise any of you here. I do not how the people of Zambia can be here when you, their representatives, have been left out. This is the report that Hon. Kampyongo says that we must approve and the hon. Minister of Justice agrees, including the others who jumped in without reading it. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: We must approve. Your powers, as representatives, have been removed. You are not assembled here in actual sense. 

Sir, the Government should sit properly and rethink about this part of the Constitution. 

Mr Livune: Sit properly.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, in any case, I have noticed that there is a provision which will enable the President to fire the running-mate in the proposed amendment. I do not know what they have done, but that is what I am reading.

Interruptions 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they are giving the President the power to fire the running-mate who would be elected by the same votes as the President. This is according to the clause which we are looking at. If they want to amend this clause, I will follow what Hon. Jack Mwiimbu said in recognition of the pact. The Constitution-making process should not be guided by the interests of the pact between political parties. It should be based on the wishes of people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the Government said that it would give us a people-driven Constitution. Unfortunately, it seems that the Constitution amendments are now being driven by the agenda of the pact. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Sir,I know that the people are shocked by what they are hearing. 

Sir, in any case, I do not support this amendment. We shall be vote throughout the nightuntil we have had enough exercise. We will adjourn tomorrow at 1000hrs.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, since they have refused to do this tomorrow morning, let us continue debating until 14 hours tomorrow so that they acknowledge that we are serious. Are we going anywhere?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Muntanga (pointing at hon. MMD Members): Are we going anywhere?

Hon. MMD Members: No!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am not sure which group of the MMD is agreeing with what I am saying. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwila: Nabakana.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I stand for the people who are not able to represent themselves. Mixed proportional representation is the answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I have received a number of notes from hon. Members. I want to advise that we still have amendments, which are related to proportional representation. At that point, if you want to speak, I will give you an opportunity. A decision had been made that after the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, the hon. Minister of Justice would wind up the debate.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, let me thank all those who have debated, either for or against the amendment. That is what democracy is all about. At the risk of repetition, we on your right are merely packing this provision for further scrutiny and interrogation so that we understand the ramifications and how it can be properly implemented.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Clause 4(47), on page 10, (a) in lines 16 to 19 by the deletion of clause (2) and the substitution therefor of the following: “(2) Elections to the National Assembly shall be conducted under a first-past-the-post electoral system in accordance with Article 68.”; (b) in lines 20 to 22 by the deletion of clause (3); (c) in line 23 by the renumbering of clause (4) as clause (3); and (d) in line 26 by the renumbering of clause (5) as clause (4), put and the House voted.

Ayes – (114)

Mr C. Banda 
Mrs E. Banda 
Mr N. Banda 
Mr I. Banda 
Mr W. Banda 
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala 
Col. Chanda 
Mr Chansa 
Mr Chenda 
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa 
Dr Chilufya 
Mr Chingimbu 
Mr Chipungu 
Mr Chisala 
Mr Chishimba 
Mr Chisopa 
Mr Chitotela 
Mr S. Chungu 
Mrs A. Chungu 
Mr Evans 
Ms Kabanshi 
Mr Kafwaya 
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba 
Ms Kalima 
Mr Kambwili 
Mr Kampyongo 
Ms Kansembe 
Ms Kapata 
Brig-Gen. Kapaya 
Mr Kapeya 
Mr Kapyanga 
Mr Kasandwe 
Dr Kasonde 
Mr Katambo 
Dr Katema 
Col. Kaunda 
Mrs Kawandami 
Mr Kazabu 
Ms Kazunga 
Mr Konga 
Mr Kosamu 
Mr Kufuna 
Mr Kunda 
Ms Limata 
Mr Lingweshi 
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu 
Col. Lungu 
Prof. Luo 
Mr Mabumba 
Mr M. Malama 
Mr Mwimba H. Malama 
Mr Masumba 
Mr Mbewe 
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Mbulu 
Ms Miti 
Mr Monde 
Mrs Mphande 
Mr Mpundu 
Mr Mtolo 
Mr Mubukwanu 
Mr Mukanga 
Mr Mukata 
Ms Mulasikwanda 
Mr Mulenga 
Mr Mumba 
Mr Mushanga 
Mr Musonda 
Mr Musukwa 
Mr Mutale 
Mr Mutati 
Mr Muteteka 
Mr Mvunga 
Mr Mwale 
Dr Mwali 
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba 
Mrs Mwanakatwe 
Mr Mwango 
Mr Mwenya 
Mr Mwewa 
Mr Mwila 
Ms Namugala 
Mr Namulambe 
Ms Ngimbu 
Mr P. Ngoma 
Mr Ngonga 
Mr Njeulu 
Mr Pande
Dr Phiri 
Mr Sampa 
Mr Sata 
Dr Scott 
Mr Shamenda 
Mr Shuma 
Mr Siamunene 
Mr Sichalwe 
Mr: Sichone 
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe 
Ms Siliya 
Mr Simbao 
Dr Simbyakula 
Mr Simfukwe 
Mr Tembo 
Prof. Willombe 
Mrs Wina 
Mr Yaluma 
Mr Zimba 
Mr Zulu 

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio 
Mr Belemu 
Mr Chitafu 
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 
Mr Habeenzu 
Mr Hamududu 
Mr Hamusonde 
Ms Imenda 
Dr Kalila 
Mr Kasonso 
Mr Katuka 
Mr Livune 
Mr Lombanya 
Ms Lubezhi 
Mr Lufuma 
Prof. Lungwangwa 
Ms Mazoka 
Mr Milambo 
Mr Miyanda 
Mr Miyutu 
Mr Mooya 
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali 
Dr Musokotwane 
Mr Mutelo 
Mr Mweetwa 
Mr Mwiimbu 
Mr Ndalamei 
Mr Ngoma 
Mr Nkombo 
Mr Ntundu 

Abstentions – (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 4(47), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 48 – (Electoral process).

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Article 48, on page 10, in line 29 by the deletion of the comma and the words “member of a provincial assembly as specified in Article 47 (3)”.

 Mr Chairperson, this amendment is consequential as it is merely removing reference to provincial assembly, which we have already dealt with.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muteloindicated.

Interruptions

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate. To start with, I would like to say that I do really understand why the hon. Minister of Justice has continued to refer to the word ‘shelving’. I do not understand why this Government is saying that there is no money. The fact is that where there is a will, there is a way.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, what this Government should say is that it does not have the will and not the money. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sianga: Professor!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, if it had the will, this Government can provide the money for the Constitution-making process. 

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, issues surrounding the bloated Cabinet were brought to this House. We debated against it. In the end, what did this Government do? It did not listen to us. It went ahead and created more ministries. Now, where did they find the money for the bloated Cabinet? 

Sir, they are saying that there is no money for provincial assemblies. What they do not have is the will. What they want us to respect is the will of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government and not for the people. The will of the people will continue standing. What is happening is collectively and politically right, but morally wrong. When you go against the will of the people, your time of reckoning will come. That time is known as natural justice.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, natural justice only suffers temporality. The will of the people always succeeds in the end. You may think that people are illiterate when they are actually not. In 1964, how many of the people who fought against the whites were educated? 

Mr Sing’ombe: Ask them!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, how many people were educated during the time of slave trade? The people managed to fight against all those vices. The hon. Minister of General Education was just telling us how many pupils have passed to Grade 8 countrywide. You might think the people of Mitete are illiterate and that they cannot understand whatever is being discussed here when in the actual fact, they do understand.  

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, by the way, they are the same people who brought us here. They are the same people who fought for Independence and rejected slave trade. They are the same people who said, “Alulati makuwa.”

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Order!

If you want to saying things in your local language, you have to give an interpretation.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, they are the same people who said that they did not want to be ruled by the white people. Today, the PF Members want to think that the people do not know anything. They might think they do not know anything when in the actual fact, they know. They are actually listening to our debate right now. They will be listening until 2016. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2011, when I came here, I remember that the hon. Minister of Justice was Mr Sebastian Zulu. He assured us that they would deliver a people-driven Constitution. After that, we had Mr Wynter Kabimba, who also assured us that he would deliver a people–driven Constitution. This was supposed to be done within ninety-days. According to the PF clock, the ninety days is not yet over.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the then Minister of Justice, now His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu also promised to deliver a people-driven Constitution.  Now, he is saying that he is washing his hands over this issue. 

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, he now wants to leave this issue to Parliament. I am also washing my hands. I am leaving the process in the hands of the PF Government. Whether they will do that which the people want or not, is up to them. This Government should do things the right way. As long as they do what is against the will of the people, I am also washing my hands off the process. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombowanted to give Mr Mutelo a bottle of water.

Mr Mutelo: Thank you very much. I will wash my hands later.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, we have had four hon. Ministers of Justice namely, Mr Sebastian Zulu, Mr Wynter Kabimba, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu and Dr Simbyakula, who all promised to deliver a people-driven Constitution. This Government is now saying that it will shelve certain clauses because there is no money. For the last few weeks, they have been saying that the kwacha has gained against the United States Dollar and that the economy is now doing fine. Now, why are they saying that there is no money?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, are they now agreeing that things are not alright in the country? Has this been caused by mismanagement? Where is the problem? Has the kwacha gained or not? What is the exchange rate of the kwacha against the United States Dollar? 

Hon. Opposition Members: It is K12.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, are they trying to create an artificial impression about this whole issue? Is the Government admitting that things are not okay? If that is the case, then, we will leave that to them. There are only two options for them. It is either they resign or wait for the people to react because they are listening.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, when the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) was on the other side of the House, the Patriotic Front (PF) then, used to advise it by using all kinds of good words just like we are doing today. Now, they are saying that they are going to pack it. When are they going to unpack it?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, on one hand, the Government is agreeing to certain things which the people want, yet, on the other hand, they are saying that they are shelving certain components. No wonder Prof. Lungwangwa said that there is a ghost within the PF Government. Maybe that is why they are not telling us how long it will take them to pack and unpack.

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa talked about a ghost being within the Ruling Party. I can feel the presence of the ghost.

 Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I want to borrow a quotation which Hon. Muntanga used from the Bill, which says: 

“We, the people of Zambia …” 

Sir, the same people who are being accused of not knowing anything are the same ones who are being referred to in the preamble of the Constitution.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, where is the will of the Parliamentarians mentioned in the Constitution?

Mr Chairperson, I stand to defend what the people of Lukulu West sent me here for. By the way, this Government went as far as Lukulu, Mitete, Kaputa and Shiwang’andu to interview people. It even had interpreters in case the local people did not understand the English Language. These people would ask them what they really wanted and explained what they were talking about. They would also ask them whether they understood what they had submitted or not. 

Sir, it is surprisingly that the PF Government is saying that the provincial assembly should not be there. Why does the Government still want linyungandambo when the answer is in the provincial assemblies? We, the people of the Western Province would have loved that provision to be maintained in the Constitution. The clause associated with the provincial assemblies was upheld by the Roger Chongwe led Constitution Review Commission. The only solution for the people to be well represented is through the provincial assemblies which the Government does not want. 

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, to some extent, the Government is now accepting the running mate provision yet, on the other hand, the hon. Minister of Justice is talking about the need for us to have the 50 per cent plus 1 provision passed. If someone does not get the 50 per cent plus 1 then, it means that we will be required to have a re-run for the country to come up with the winner. Where are we going to get the money from?

 Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, this Government is saying that there is no money for the provincial assemblies and yet, money for the re-run will be found because the PF has more money in its pockets. However, others are saying that there is no money in the same pockets.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo:Sir, who is consistent and who is not?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, earlier in the day, we told this Government to suspend the Motion regarding the suspension or Standing Orders so that we can deal with the Business of the House tomorrow. Unfortunately, the PF Members insisted that the Business on the Order paper would be concluded around 2200 hours or 2300 hours. Are we going to finish the Business around 2300 hours? The answer is no. This Government is inconsistent. We are likely to debate until tomorrow. It is for this reason that some hon. Members from this side of the House suggested that we go against that Motion.

Sir, from the look of things, it will soon be tomorrow.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, hon. Opposition Members are consistent. 

Hon. UPND Members: Her, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to agree with what the people submitted. Therefore, if the amendments are against the will of the people, I am also washing my hands. Alingiwowo fwafwa, which means, I end there.

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the House for the unanimous support.

 Sir, I thank you. 

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 4 (48), on page 10, in line 29 by the deletion of the comma and the words “member of a provincial assembly as specified in Article 47 (3).”,  put and theHouse voted.

Ayes – (114)

Mr C. K.Banda
Mrs E. M Banda
Mr N Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mr Chungu
Mrs Chungu
Mr Evans
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
MrKampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Mr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr M. Malama
Mr M. H. Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
MrMonde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
MrMubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
MrMumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu
MrP. Ngoma
MrNg’onga
Mr Njeulu
Mr Pande
Dr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Mr Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (38)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
DrKalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Muchima
MrMufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Phiri
Mr Shakafuswa
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 4 (48), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4 (49) and (50) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 51 – (Independent Candidates)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, in Article 51, on page 11, in line 2, by the deletion of the words “constituency-based-seat” and the comma and the substitution therefor of the word “seat”.

Sir, this amendment is consequential as it relates to references to a constituency-based-seat.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all the hon. Members for the unanimous support.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Articleamended accordingly.

Clause 4 (51), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 52 – (Nominations)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, Article 52, on page 11, as follows:

(a)    in line 11

by deletion of the words “for a constituency-based seat”; and

(b)    in line 13

by the deletion of the word “proclamation” and the substitution therefor of the word “regulation”.

Sir, again, this amendment is consequential as it relates to the deletion of the words “constituency-based-seat” and in line 13 deletion of the word “proclamation” and the substitution therefor of the word “regulation”.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Articleamended accordingly.

Clause 4 (52), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 53 – (Unopposed Candidates)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson,I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, Article 53, on page 11, in line 35, by deletion of the words “for a constituency-based-seat”.

Sir, this again is consequential as it basically calling for the deletion of the words “constituency-based-seat” in line 35, page 11.

Mr Chairperson, I would to support the hon. Members for the unanimous support.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 4 (53), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Clause 4 (54) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 55 – (Losing candidate not eligible for certain appointments)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move amendments in Clause 4, Article 55, on page 22, as follows:

(a)    in line 8

by the insertion after the word “President” of the word “Vice-President”;

(b)    in line 9

by the deletion of the words “for a constituency-based-seat”;

(c)    in line 12

by the insertion after the semi-colon of the word “or”;

(d)    in line 13

by the deletion of the semi-colon and the word “or” and the substitution therefor of a full stop; and

(e)    in line 14

by the deletion of paragraph (c).

Mr Chairperson, the amendments in Article 55 are merely consequential.

Sir, I would like to thank all the hon. Members for their unanimous support.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendments agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 4 (55), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4 (56) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 57 – (By-elections)

Dr Simbyakula:Mr Chairperson, I beg to moveamendments in Clause 4, Article 57, on page 12, as follows:

(a)    in line 20

by the deletion of the words “for a constituency- based-seat”; and

(b)    in line 25

by the deletion of the word “proclamation” and the substitution therefor of the word “regulation”.

Mr Chairperson, the amendments in Article 57 are consequential.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendments agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 4 (57), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4– REPEAL AND REPLACEMENT OF PART IV

ARTICLE 58 – (Constituencies, Wards and Delimitation)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, in Article 58, on page 12, in line 33 by the deletion of clause (2) and the substitution therefor of the following:

“(2)    The number of constituencies shall be equal to the number of seats of elected members of the National Assembly”.

Lt-Gen Rev Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Chairperson, as amatter of guidance. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate?

Lt-Gen Rev Shikapwasha: Yes, Sir …

Mr Lubinda: What do you want to say?

Lt-Gen Rev Shikapwasha: … I have noticed that you have come in and the Deputy Speaker has gone away, …

Laughter

Lt-Gen Rev. Shikapwasha: … are you guiding us now that we should have shadow Members of Parliament also coming in when hours are extended?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate?

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the Members for their unanimous support.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to. Articleamended accordingly.

Clause 4(58), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4(59) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 60 – (Political Parties)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 4, Article 60, on page 13, in line 30 by the deletion of the comma and the words “other than a provincial assembly”.

Sir, the amendment in Article 60 is merely consequential.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 4(60), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 5 and 6(61) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 – REPEAL AND REPLACEMENT OF ARTICLES 62 TO 78

ARTICLE 62 – (Parliament, Vesting of Legislative Authority and Members of Parliament)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, in Article 62, on page 15, in line 11, by the deletion of the words “Subject to Article 154, the” and the substitution therefor of the word “The”.

Sir, the amendment in Article 62 is consequential.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, Article 62(2), stipulates that “Subject to Article 154, the legislative authority of the Republic is vested in and exercised by Parliament”. However, I have noticed that we have removed the phrase “it is vested in Parliament” in Article 154, and yet in the preamble of the Constitution of Zambia it says, “We, the people of Zambia, acknowledge the supremacy of God Almighty”.

The preamble we have in the existing Constitution is very clear and says “We the people of Zambia, by our representatives assembled in our Parliament, having solemnly resolved to maintain Zambia as a sovereign Democratic Republic …”

Now, Article 62 talks about …

Mr Chairperson, are you understanding what I am saying?

The Deputy Chairperson: I am on course. Perhaps you need guidance before you continue with your debate.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The proposed amendment relates to Article 62(2). The amendment is to delete the words “subject to Article 154”. That is what the amendment is seeking to delete. Why delete Article 154? This is because Article 154 talks about the functions and procedures of the provincial assemblies.

I hope we are together. You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson for your guidance. Since Article 154 refers to the provincial assemblies which we have been debating throughout the evening, for now, I rest my case.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 6(62), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6(63)(64)(65)(66) and (67) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 68 – (Election and Composition of National Assembly)

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, in Article 68, on page 18

(a)    In line 5
By the deletion of the words “one hundred and fifty-six” and the substitution therefor of the words “one hundred and sixty-two”; and

Sir, this is in view of what had earlier happened today, regarding the proportional representation, part (b) of the amendment falls off.

The Chairperson: What the hon. Member is seeking is that in the first place, he is dropping the proposed amendment to Article 68(2)(b). Therefore, his proposed amendment to Article 68(2)(a) still stands, and he is proposing that the provision regarding the one hundred and fifty-six constituency-based members directly elected on the basis of simple majority vote under first-past-the-post system be amended by deletion of the words “one hundred and fifty-six seats” and the substitution therefor of the words “one hundred and sixty-two”.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, this is an innocent and needful amendment which is taking absolutely nothing from the peoples’ submissions. That is why I had to go back to the submissions of the experts in delimitation, who are the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), and refer to the 2011 submissions, in which they indicated that a number of constituencies were supposed to be delimitated.

Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister submitted the proposed increase of six new constituencies, this was based on the fact that there are new districts that have been created. I was of the view, and I still feel, that constituencies which are massive, such as Kasempa, Mpika, Mufumbwe, Mwinilunga, Chilubi Island and many others should be considered. This consideration should be based on the increase of constituencies and the recommendation made by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Sir, short of not debating ourselves, when you look at a constituency like Mufumbwe, you find that a Member of Parliament for that particular constituency covers over 400km to move from end of the constituency to the other. There are also constituencies like Chilubi Island and Kasempa, which have twenty two wards. Recently, the ECZ was in the field and increased the number of wards in some of the constituencies which include Mufumbwe, Mwinilunga and Kasempa. The ECZ recommended that two more constituencies be added to Kasempa. The commission also recommended the addition of a constituency to Mpika, Mufumbwe, Mwinilunga and Chilubi Island. So, in view of that submission from the ECZ, and not taking anything away from the people’s submission, I am appealing to this House to consider adding these constituencies to those which have already been submitted.

Sir, I beg to move.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the points that the hon. Member has raised are valid. However, we would prefer to proceed on a holistic basis where we look at all the 150 constituencies. That would be much neater and fair.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Motion that is on the Floor. I think that the earlier we increase the number of constituencies, the better. Indeed, Kasempa is big, and everyone here has admitted to that fact. Therefore, Kasempa Parliamentary Constituency cannot be left the way it is. We have so many of such constituencies. That submission concerningconstituencies which are so big should have actually come to this House earlier. The submission by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaempa Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. Pande is valid. We cannot continue with the way things are. Namwala and Senanga are also among the big constituencies. So, for now, it is better we start with a few of those constituencies. If the Government says we proceed on a holistic basis where we look at all the 150 constituencies, we will be delaying the process. These constituencies are too big and so, we need to divide them. If the delimitation was done, why then are we delaying? 

Sir, we cannot continue in this manner. I support Hon. Pande’s submission, especially on Kasempa Parliamentary Constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I totally support Hon. Pande’s submission that we should go ahead and do the necessary thing. We heard, from the Patriotic Front (PF) how big these constituencies are. We also heard that the delimitations have already been done by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). Therefore, this is a necessary opportunity for us to go ahead and delimit all the constituencies that are outstanding, including Keembe. These constituencies are too big and so the people are not getting the services that they need from the Government as well as the hon. Members of Parliament. It takes a long time for a Member of Parliament to go through twenty wards in a constituency like Kasempa. This is the same for places like Zambezi West, where the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection is Member of Parliament. When I was a pilot, I flew there several times. I know that it is a very difficult area to get to. It is, therefore, important that we go ahead and allow for that delimitation to be done.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Lubinda): Mr Chairperson, firstly, let me commend Hon. Pande for this initiative. This is, indeed, as it should be. When laws are presented before this House, hon. Members who have issues with any particular law, are at liberty to propose an amendment so as to open dialogue on that particular matter. If that is done, dialogue is not only academic and rhetorical. How I wish all those who have issues with the various clauses or articles of this Bill had done the same as Hon. Pande. It would focus our discussions and debates. It would also preclude us from discussing commas and consequential amendments. Instead, it would lead us to discussing substantial issues.

Sir, having said this, I would like to borrow the words of Hon. Mufalali and Hon. Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha, that there is indeed, need for the delimitation of constituencies across the country. Indeed, Namwala is a big constituency just like Itezhi-tezhi, Petauke and Keembe. That shows that had Hon. Pande done a bit more research or had he gone to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) to go and ask the result of the delimitation exercise and brought before this House, a holistic proposal, which covers the whole country, I do not think that the learned Minister of Justice and the Government would have a challenge or any problem with his suggestion. We would have proceeded along that path. The fact that he, and the other two debaters who agreed with him are proposing the delimitation of only six constituencies, is an indication that the amendment that he came up with requires a further amendment. This is because Hon. Mufalali added two more constituencies, Hon. Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha added three more and I have added eight more. I am sure that if I asked another hon. Member to speak, they will add six more. Where will it end? So, I do not think that is a systematic way of delimitating the country.

Sir, it is,indeed, necessary to increase the number of constituencies. I think the hon. Member who has proposed the amendment should sit down with the Government and all other hon. Members of Parliament, together with the ECZ to agree on a comprehensive approach so that when we bring the numbers here, all of us will be agreed.

Sir, on that basis, I would like to appeal to Hon. Pande not to delay proceedings and to do that which he is known for, to be honourable and magnanimous. He must concede that although this amendment might be necessary, it has to be done through a comprehensive process, so that we avoid any unnecessary voting on this matter.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, in responding to my young brother, Hon. Lubinda, although I know there are no young brothers in here, I must mention that I went to the ECZ. Therefore, the figures in this amendment are based on the information I got from the ECZ. If the National Assembly was to have proportional representation, however, the figures would be more. The constituencies I am suggesting to split up are the ones the ECZ said were the biggest in the country at the moment.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice has said that some provisions in the Draft Constitution have to be shelved for future consideration. Therefore, why do we not take what I am recommending for now and look at other proposals in future?

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 6 (68) on page 18, be amended in line 5, by the deletion of the words “one hundred and fifty-six” and the substitution therefor of the words “one hundred and sixty-two”; and in line 8, by the deletion of the words “ninety-four” and the substitution therefor of the words “eighty-eight”, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (38)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chitafu
Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu 
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Konga
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mtolo
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma L. J.
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Lt-Gen. Bishop Shikapwasha
Mr Sing’ombe

Noes – (97)

Mrs Banda 
Mr Banda N.
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs Chungu
Mr Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama M. H.
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mvunga
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu 
Mr Ngoma P.
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Sata
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Question that Article 68be amended put and negatived.

Clause 6 (68) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 68 − (Election and Composition of National Assembly)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, in Article 68, on page 18: 

(a)    in line 2, by the deletion of the comma and the words “this Article and Article 69” and the substitution therefor of the words “and this Article”; 

(b)    in line 5, by the deletion of the words “constituency-based”;

(c)    in lines 8 and 11, by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following:

“(b)    not more than eight nominated members;
(c)    the Vice-President;”;

(d)    in lines 12 and 13, by the renumbering of paragraphs (c) and (d) as paragraphs (d) and (e) respectively; and

(e)    in lines 14 and 18, by the deletion of clause (3).

Mr Chairperson, in this amendment we are proposing the re-introduction of not more than eight nominated hon. Members and the inclusion of the Vice-President as an hon. Member of Parliament. The proposal to re-introduce nominated hon. Members is in view of the decision we have taken earlier of doing away with proportional representation. This provision will make it possible for whoever will be President to enhance the representation of special interests, skills or gender in the National Assembly. At the time when proportional representation will come into effect, that provision could fall away. 

Mr Chairperson, in so far as the position of Vice-President is concerned, we are proposing that the Vice-President should be Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left.

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, in other words, we hope to retain the status quo of the current functions of the Vice-President. 

Mr Chairperson, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you once again for giving me an opportunity… 

Mr Nkombo: There no lights 

Mr Mufalali: There are no lights in the toilets.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Sir, once again, I want to put it on record that I am standing here on behalf of the people. As the mutilation of the people’s will continues in the night, I think it has to be recorded that for me, representing the people of Senanga, the proportional representation, Cabinet outside Parliament, and Parliamentary Secretaries related clauses were supposed to be left as they are. 

Mr Chairperson, the majority of the hon. Members are young people. Posterity will judge them harshly because they will be on record as having being against the will of the people. The sovereignty of any nation belongs to the people. It is the people who should decide the direction which the country should take and the way they want to be governed. Just like the President has left the process in the hands of the PF Ministers, I also wish wash my hands from this process. I do not want to be part and parcel of the group which is mutilating the will of the people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the will of the people should have been left the way it is. The excuses that are being given before this House that there is no money for certain things to be done do not stand. The will of the people should have been maintained. Now, for those who are young, they should remember that posterity will definitely judge them.

Mr Livune: Exactly

Mr Mufalali: Sir, some of the people are definitely not going to be here for the next ten years. 

Ms Lubezhi: bachembele?

Mr Mufalali: Sir, those who have presidential ambitions should remember that what they are doing today will definitely catch up with them one day.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, as the records stand, some of the Members are literally following what they do not even believe in.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, since some hon. Members are doing what they do not believe in, it will eat them up one day.

Mr Chairperson, the people want to be governed the way they want to be governed. The people should not be governed the will of the people who have decided to mutilate the Constitution. So, I stand by what is provided Draft Constitution for in Article 68 and that it should be as it is.

Mr Chairperson, we have just rejected the increase in the number of constituencies. I do not know what the PF want. They do not an increase in the number of constituencies. They do not want proportional representation. I heard yesterday how some of the hon. Members from the Ruling Party could not comprehend what proportional representation meant. It is another system of governance which actually allows for the majority of those who have participated in elections to be on board. It is surprising that they do not understand an initiative which was put together by a team which they had put together. Right now, they seem to be telling the nation that they do not understand what proportional representation entails. I think that this is the time they must search your souls. 

Mr Livune: Tabahi kuchikolo.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, for some of us, we do not only represent only men in this House. We represent women, those who are disadvantaged, and those who do not understand where they belong. There is no middle line here. It is either you are for the people or against the people. The hon. Minister of Justice seems to be trying to be on the middle line somewhere where he can find some comfort. If you have rejected the will of the people, it is better to tell them the truth. Tell the people that and they will understand. Tough luck to those who are claiming to come from constituencies where people cannot read and write. As for me, I come from a constituency where people can read and write.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I have respect for those people cannot read and write. Therefore, what they say matters most to me because that is the game I have come into. It is unfortunate thatthe hon. Minister of Justice can stand up and insult…

Mr Nkombo: People

Mr Mufalali: … them that they cannot determine how they must be ruled. In any case, that is why we come here to represent them.

Mr Sing’ombe: Ah!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I think it is an …

Mr Milambo: An insult.

Mr Mufalali: … an insult and a misplaced statement for anyone to say that he will mutilate the Constitution just because some people do not know how to read and write. I think it is not fair to the electorates and the citizens for they have spoken over time on what they want. There voice is very clear.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the people want a Constitution that will stand the test of time just as other debaters have said. The electorates are listening to our debates. I do not believe that the people in the Northern Province do not know how to read and write. Even if the people of Shiwang’andu, allegedly do not know how to read and write, they were very clear in their submissions what sort of Constitution they want. Those who are listening to our debates know clearly the people who do not know how to read and write.

Mr Livune: Sir, maybe they even voted for someone from amongst themselves who does not know how to read and write.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the insults on the electorates have continued right up to this hour. Even though I am using English, the people of Muchinga ... 

Mr Livune: Tabaleumfwa!

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: … are understanding what is being said. They should not be insulted. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, I have been to Muchinga Province and I know that there are intelligent men and women because I met them. I was even given food by Hon. Namugala’s Chairperson. So, I know that they are very intelligent. They welcomed us. Therefore, it is an insult for anyone to come here and say that the people of Muchinga Province people do not understand what is happening today.  They will sort out the PF come 2016.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the people of Muchinga Province will definitely send the PF hon. Members away because they have not been represented effectively. Even when they wanted proportional representation, they could not get it because the PF hon. Members disagreed for the mere reason that they do not know what proportional representation is. We have observed this. One hon. Minister was telling us that he knows it all when he did not even know anything about proportional representation. We saw it here. 

Mr Chairperson, the people want proportional representation. They also want a Cabinet outside Parliament so that there are proper checks and balances from this House as opposed to the compromised system that we have. Today, those who have no backbone start to crawl when crumbs fall from a certain table. If we had such characters in 1964, we would not have attained our Independence. However, we had men and women who, though uneducated, stood up for their nation and got Independence. Those without a backbone have even gone ahead to mutilate the Draft Constitution, which is the people’s will, without remorse, conscience or guilt.

Mr Chairperson, when I was growing up, as an Seventh Day Adventist youth, I learnt a lot about the dogs of the world. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali:Sir,I learnt that one of the funniest dogs is the Kuni dog. When you advance on a yard, it welcomes you. However, the moment you pass by, it bites you. The people are being bitten here. They brought this document before us for approval, but as they were passing, they were bitten at the back.

Hon. UPND Members: By the Kuni.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, it is very dangerous. What is happening here is very unfortunate. The people have spoken, but are being insulted, beaten and looked down upon by those who feel that they have reached the status where they are so big and live well. They are the almighty, the alpha and omega of the people. It should not be like that. 

M Speaker, the people must be respected. They can only be respected if what they said in the Draft is allowed to stand. This is the reason they said “We the people.” It is unfortunate that the mutilation continues throughout the night. However, as we have promised, we will be here to ensure that the will of the people is respected.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 2355 hours until 0040 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all the hon. Members for their support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause  6(68) on page 18, in line 2, by the deletion of the comma and the words “this Article and Article 69” and the substitution therefor of the words “and this Article”;  in line 5, by the deletion of the words “constituency-based”; in lines 8 to 11, by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following; “(b) not more than eight nominated members; (c) the Vice-President;”; in lines 12 and 13, by the renumbering of paragraphs (c) and (d) as paragraphs (d) and (e) respectively; and in lines 14 to 18, by the deletion of clause (3), put and the House voted.

Ayes – (109)

Mrs Banda
Mr N. Banda 
Mr Bwalya 
Mr Chabala 
Col. Chanda 
Mr Chansa 
Mr Chenda 
Mr Chikwanda 
Mr Chilangwa 
Dr Chilufya 
Mr Ching’imbu 
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba 
Mr Chisopa 
Mr Chitotela 
Mrs Chungu 
Mr Chungu 
Mr Evans 
Mrs Kabanshi 
Mr Kafwaya 
Dr Kaingu 
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima 
Mr Kambwili 
Mr Kampyongo 
Ms Kansembe 
Ms Kapata 
Brig-Gen Kapaya 
Mr Kapeya 
Mr Kapyanga 
Mr Kasandwe 
Dr Kasonde 
Dr Katema 
Col. Kaunda 
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu 
Ms Kazunga 
Mr Kosamu 
Mr Kufuna 
Mr Kunda 
Ms Limata 
Mr Lingweshi 
Mr Lubinda 
Dr Lungu 
Col. Lungu 
Prof. Luo 
Mr Mabumba 
Mr M. H. Malama 
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe 
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Mbulu 
Ms Miti 
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande 
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu 
Mr Mukanga
Ms Mulasikwanda 
Mr Mulenga 
Mr Mumba 
Mr Mushanga 
Mr Musonda 
Mr Musukwa 
Mr Mutale 
Mr Mvunga 
Dr Mwali 
Mr Mwaliteta 
Mr Mwamba 
Mrs Mwanakatwe 
Mr Mwango 
Mr Mwenya 
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe 
Ms Ng’imbu 
Mr P. Ngoma 
Mr Ng’onga 
Mr Njeulu 
Dr Phiri 
Mr Sata 
Mr Shamenda 
Mr Shuma 
Mr Siamunene 
Mr Sichalwe 
Mr Sichone 
Mr Sichula 
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya 
Mr Simbao 
Dr Simbyakula 
Mr Simfukwe 
Mr Tembo
Prof. Willombe 
Mrs Wina 
Mr Yaluma 
Mr Zimba 
Mr Zulu 

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio 
Mr Belemu 
Mr Chipungu 
Mr Chitafu 
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu 
Mr Hamusonde 
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila 
Mr Kasonso 
Mr Konga 
Mr Livune 
Mr Lombanya 
Ms Lubezhi 
Mr Lufuma 
Prof. Lungwangwa 
Mrs Mazoka 
Mr Milambo 
Mr Miyanda 
Mr Miyutu 
Mr Mooya 
Mr Mtolo 
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali 
Mr Mulomba 
Mr Muntanga 
Dr Musokotwane 
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo 
Mr Ndalamei 
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo 
Mr Ntundu 
Mr Pande 
Ms Sayifwanda 
Bishop Lt-Gen Shikapwasha 
Mr Sing'ombe 

Abstentions - (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly. 

Clause 6(68), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 69 – (Nomination Under Party List)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on page 18 and 19, by the deletion of Article 69 and the substitution therfor of the following:

Nominated    69.    (1)    The President may nominate a person referred to in Article
Members of        68 (2) (b) where the President considers it necessary to enhance the 
Parliament        representation of special interests, skills or gender in the National 
            Assembly.
                (2)    A person may be nominated as a Member of Parliament if
                the person qualifies to be elected as such under Article 70.
                (3)    A person who was a candidate for election in the last
                Preceding general election or a subsequent by-election is not
                eligible to be nominated as a Member of Parliament.”

Sir, that amendment is consequential because of the discussion we have had in relation to Article 68.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, this amendment is not consequential. It is a very bad amendment which is against the will of the Zambian people. 

Sir, prior to 2011, the Patriotic Front (PF) made a very strong campaign promise. That campaign promise was anchored on three things, that is, more money in people’s pockets, lower taxes, and more jobs. On the legal front, the PF was very emphatic and promised to deliver a new Constitution to the Zambian people in ninety days. One thing worth noting is that the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) was torn into pieces in the 2011 election at least in Lusaka Province, the Copperbelt and the Northern Province because the Zambian people believed the message of the PF. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, when President Sata of the PF took over, he immediately constituted the Technical Committee to review the Zambian Constitution. This gave a glimmer of hope to the Zambian people that they would finally have a new Constitution. However, before long, we heard sentiments from the PF that issues regarding the new Constitution should be ignored. This confirmed that the message of the PF based on the “Don’t kubeba” slogan was now beginning to bear fruit. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, by God’s grace, we saw one Edgar Chagwa Lungu become President of the Republic of Zambia. However, before he became President, he was the hon. Minister of Justice. He released the draft Constitution which the Zambian people had been yearning for. He said that his approach was beyond reproach because he had given the Zambian people what they had been demanding, and that the people would not be given a Constitution which was not desirable to them. However, what we are seeing today is a very sad state of affairs. I participated in the technical review of the draft Constitution. As my colleagues have already indicated, at the district and provincial assembly, and the National Constitution Conference (NCC), before a committee of experts, the Zambian people’s voice was very clear. They wanted the first-past-the-post and mixed member proportional representation systems. Today, however, the PF Government has put on a kangaroo skin. This is very sad. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, by kangaroo skin I mean that this PF Government has opted to become like a chameleon. They have changed what they promised the Zambian people, in as far as the Constitution is concerned. 

Interruptions 

Mr Livune: Chameleons!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just to guide. 

The purport of this amendment is to delete Article 69 and substitute it with the following: 

“Nominated    69.    (1)     The President may nominate a person referred to 
Members of    in Article 68 (2) (b) where the President considers it necessary to 
Parliament    enhance the representation of special interest, skills or gender in the National Assembly.
(2) A person may be nominated as a Member of Parliament if the person qualifies to be elected as such under Article 70.
(3) A person who was a candidate for election in the last preceding general election or a subsequent by-election is not eligible to be nominated as Member of Parliament.” 
    
This is what has been proposed. You may proceed. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I read this draft Constitution very well. I do not agree with what the PF Government wants to do. It is precisely this amendment that they want to bring after deleting Article 69. I am against the deletion of Article 69. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:I understand what I am talking about. I am not ignorant. 

Interruptions

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, like I indicated, at each and every stage, the people were very emphatic. The mixed member proportional representation system, which uses a party list as its proportional component, did not emanate from nowhere, but from the people of Zambia. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, if you, as the PF Government, can today decide to go against the wishes of the Zambian people, I can confirm that you hate them. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: It is like your child asking you for bread but because of the hatred you have for your spouse, you end up giving that child a snake. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:It is very sad that today, on the Floor of this House, we can be told by the PF that this issue will simply be shelved. One question that begs an answer is: Can you trust the PF? 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: The majority of Zambians today do not trust the PF because it is full of deception. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Have they provided the many jobs that you promised? 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Have they lowered the taxes? 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:Have they provided a new Constitution?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:Is there more money in our pockets? 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, there suggestions that we should shelve certain issues do not sense. I am opposed to this amendment that they have brought to this House because this Government  cannot to be trusted. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:Mr Chairperson, the other argument was that if we took this route, it would be very expensive because the number of representatives would increase. The Zambian people are very clear on what a democracy is. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:A democracy is a government of the people by the people for the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Civics!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Of course, and I did very well in the subject. 

Mr Kambwili: Geography!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people know for sure that democracy is no cheap exercise but they are ready. So, give them what they want. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, for them to play with our emotions even at this late houris uncalled for. As we adjourn, we will go back and tell the people about the PF deception. The Latin phrase Vox Populi Vox Dei, means that the voice of the people is the voice of God. 

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: By denying what the people want, the PF, is refusing to hear God’s voice. I want to indicate, therefore, that I am against this amendment and that it is important that this Article stays the way it is. Yesterday, when debating the mixed member proportional representation system that uses the party list, I heard various arguments. 

Mr Kambwili: Are you sure it was yesterday? 

Mr L. J. Ngoma:Yes, it was yesterday

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Member to debate. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, it was either yesterday or the day before yesterday.I heard arguments that this amendment had nothing to do with interest groups such as women, the youth and the disabled. They were trying to make it appear so simple. 

Mr Chairperson, I came to Parliament in 2001. There was a time when the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo, who is now Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, and I were privileged to go to Sweden to learn about this exact system. I remember that she was full of accolades that the Swedish Government had managed to push women representation because of the electoral system that they had in place. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: InRwanda today, female representation in Parliament is very high because of such a system. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, in South Africa, women representation is very high because of this very system. I remember Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning saying “when I go back to Zambia this is what I will want to see” (mimickingHer Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning).

Laughter 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: I want to believe that even where she is, she is not very happy. 

Mr Chairperson, I am therefore against this amendment. In a night shell, I am saying that this Article should remain, ... 

Mr Kalaba: In a night shell?!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: …failure to which you will be sorted out. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Your moment of reckoning is coming. Just like you tore the Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD) to pieces because of promises of the Constitution, rest assured that you will not run away from this issue. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Vox populi 

Mr Lubinda: Bauze manje ati vox popoli.

Laughter 

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Ms Siliya): Mr Chairperson, I was very reluctant to discuss this particular amendment because I thought that it would be automatic especially that the substantive Article had already been addressed. However, I think that it is important that I put a few issues into context.

Sir, the last three days have been extremely momentous for all of us in this House because despite the party one belongs to, being part of the constitution-making process is the most important duty any hon. Member of Parliament can be part of. We are privileged to be here this early morning to participate in this debate. I congratulate my colleagues from the United Party for National Development (UNPD) for realising the importance of participating in the process even after voting against this Bill. This is how it should be. This is the responsibility of each person in this House who has been elected by the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I keep hearing hon. Members saying that we need a people driven Constitution. How can we have a people driven Constitution if we do not take the first step of bringing it to the House to be discussed? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Ms Siliya: Sir, that is why I believe what we have done in the last three days is important. We have taken the steps required to deliver a people driven Constitution. It will not be possible to have 14 million Zambians gathered somewhere to discuss the Constitution. That can only be done through the people’s representatives after consultations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr N. Banda: Hear, hear!

Ema minister ayo!

Ms Siliya: Sir,  Hon. L. Ngoma and my very dear friend Hon. Mufalali, if I could borrow the words of Hon. Chikwanda,  use excessive flowery words. It is not possible for all of us to be 100 per cent happy with what is in the amendments. What is important to understand is what Hon. Sayifwanda said. The Patriotic Front (PF) has managed to do what the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) failed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: We have taken the first step.

Interruptions

Ms Siliya: Sir, I believe that the hon. Minister put it even better by saying that the leadership, especially in a crisis, needs to be courageous when moving forward.

Mr Chairperson, what do the people of Zambia want? Since I came to the House, I have heard of issues surrounding the fifty percent plus one rule being talked about. To me, it was one of the most contentious issues. Unfortunately, the Government I belonged to before did not take the decision to make that piece of legislation a part of our laws. This Government has taken the courageous step to give the people what they want.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I keep hearing the argument about proportional representation.

Hon. Opposition: Mr Chairperson!

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, let us not pretend to be democrats when we come from political parties that are undemocratic and do not recognise the fact that women must be adopted in recognition of the African Union (AU) and Southern African Development Community (SADC) protocols regarding female representation in decision-making position.It would be folly to believe that since management is a political process, we will bring politicians to this House, especially women and other interest groups, that will have political acumen without going through the political process in political parties. I am happy that we will bring a Bill that demands that all political parties adopt 50 per cent representation of women so that we can be relieved of some men who are not useful in the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Sir, we have been discussing the Constitution for the past three days and I have not heard about a women’s Bill. What I have heard being talked about is the role of political representatives of the people of Zambia in addressing issues surrounding the Constitution. All of us want certain things in this Bill, but it will not do to keep talking about what did or did not happen in the past. 

Mr Chairperson, we all know what the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the MMD did and did not do. We also know where we are with the PF. The step has been taken for the people of Zambia, for a change, to truly have  good  Constitution Bill. This is the Bill that is under discussion right now by us, the representatives, who are the right people to handle it because were elected to represent the people.

Sir, I am sure most of us are in agreement that more could be done by providing for more constituencies. In fact, at the National Council for Constitution (NCC), an extra 50 constituencies were suggested. This is why we on this side are saying that we need to think through this carefully so that we take a decision once and for all. This will help us to provide what the people of Zambia are looking for.

Mr Chairperson, today is, for me and many in this House, a momentous occasion. Those who have been in this House for a very long time like Hon. Muntanga ...

Mr Muntanga: What have I done?

Laughter 

Ms Siliya: ... will be part of history. They will always remember that they were there when a courageous Government actually brought this Bill to this House.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga resumed his seat.

Ms Siliya: Sir, Hon. Muntanga has contributed immensely to this House and one of his most important contributions, whether he agrees to all the Articles or not, is that he is here participating in the debates. That is the most important job an hon. Member of Parliament can do. For that reason, I support the amendment.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Hon. Government Members: Minister of Justice!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, it is quite shocking that somebody can agree to do job and then leave it unattended to along the way.  In the past four years, we have heard similar statements concerning the Constitution of Zambia. That is why I am saying that what is happening right now is shocking. If someone kills another person, we cannot call that courage.   

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, if you use energy in order to destroy someone’s life, then that is not being courageous. Courage means being productive and protective. When you are given power, you should use it appropriately for the intended purpose. Fifty-one years after Independence, we still have people who occupy positions in Government, but fail to comply with the demands of the people.

Mr Chairperson, there are two words which have been used repeatedly. These are shelving and resources. When this Government was advocating for a people-driven Constitution, the positions of Minister of Justice and Minister of Finance were fully occupied. None of these people proclaimed the absence of resources which would make them to fail to deliver a people-driven Constitution. We all know that sometimes, power corrupts and blindfolds people. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, as these people were talking about delivering a people-driven Constitution, they forgot that one day, the time for them to do so would come. The time has now come. The people are waiting. The day which was about 1,000 days or hours away is now seconds away.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we are now counting seconds. The Government is saying that it cannot pass the draft Constitution as a whole because of lack of finances. Those belonging to the PF never used to say such kind of things in the past. This Government should give the people what they want. What they want is a complete Constitution. If we shall be looking at our own interests, that is not dynamism. Let us be dynamic. Let us be open and allow even other people’s interests to be considered. We are not here to serve our own interests. We are here to serve the interests of those who are not in this House. We will not to be here forever, but this country will continue existing. We cannot continue to please our interests. One day, we shall also be out of power and shall need others to please us as well. So, let us do that which we would want others to do for us. 

Mr Chairperson, who requested this Government to make amendments to the Constitution? Nobody requested it to do that. None of the Zambians said this Government should amend the Constitution. The Zambians want a Constitution which is not amended.  The simplest this Government could have done is to just accept the whole document the way it is. That is what courage is. If that was done, we would have already adjourned sine dieby this time. This is because we would have agreed on what people have suggested. Let us not fear our own shadows. If we shall be talking of resources constraints all the time, this country will not develop. The do not know that they are blocking development by amending the Constitution. It seems that they do not want other stakeholders to participate in the decision-making process.  They should let others also to pump new ideas into them. When you are exhausted in a relay, you pass on the baton. 

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Sir, that is the problem with the African leadership. People do not want to hand over power to others. I do not really know how it feels to occupy a higher position. It is like it blinds people. I know that when we go out there, we shall be asked questions by the constituents. The answers we are going to give those people is what we are discussing in this House. Those in the PF will give the people answers which are contrary to what is happening on the ground. 

Mr Chairperson, where is the Bill of Rights? 

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, what has made it difficult for us to pass this whole document which includes the Bill of Rights? What difference would it have made? I am saying so because each person would have used one ballot paper for both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. No individual would have used two ballot papers for the referendum to take place. It would still have been one ballot paper per voter. So, the same ballot paper is going to provide on that actual day of the General Elections is the same one which would have been used for the draft Constitution. What if the people refuse to pass the Bill of Rights through the referendum? That is my worry.

Mr Chairperson, let us use this power to serve our citizens diligently. The draft Constitution should have been passed without any mutilation. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we have been dealing with this document for a long time without anybody ever having attempted to tell the Zambians that this job was going to be redone. Did this Government tell the people that? Who stood on the platform and told the Zambian people that the Draft Constitution will be exposed to mutilation? Who said so?The Government agreed that the Zambian people will be given a Constitution that will stand a taste of time. It did not tell us that the document would be mutilated and broken into pieces. This Government is now referring to the people of Zambia as being ignorant and that they did not know what they were doing. The PF needs to apologise to the Zambian people.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, it is high time the Government apologised to the people of Zambia …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu:…because what it has done is not what ithad promised. What happens when a parent does not fulfill the promise made to a child?

Hon. Government Members: Finally!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, it is not easy for me to support this amendment. In short, I would still stand with the people I live with and represent in this House because that is what was agreed.

 Mr Chairperson, this amendment is not supported and is uncalled for. In short, the amendment has no support from the people of Kalabo Central.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members:   Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Since this is a consequential amendment, can the hon. Minister of Justice, please wind up debate.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all those that have debated and for their support.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 6(69) on pages 18 and 19, by the deletion of Article 69 and the substitution therefor of the following:

“Nominated    69.     (1) The President may nominate a person referred to in Article 68 (2) 
Members of     (b)where the President considers it necessary to enhance the representation 
Parliament    of special interests, skills or gender in the National Assembly.
(2) A person may be nominated as a Member of Parliament if the person qualifies to be elected as such under Article 70.
(3)A person who was a candidate for election in the last preceding general election or a subsequent by-election is not eligible to be nominated as a Member of Parliament.”, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (107)

Mrs. E. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mr S. Chungu
Mrs A. M. Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Ms Kazunga
Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Col. J. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Mushili Malama
Mr Mwimba Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Sata
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes– (37)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions– (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 6(69), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 9(70) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 71 – (Nominations for election to National Assembly).

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Article 71, on page 20

(a)    in lines 17 to 18 by the deletion of the figure (1) and the words “A nomination for election to the National Assembly, for a constituency-based-seat, is valid if the candidate –” and the substitution therefor of the following:
“A nomination for election to the National Assembly is valid if the candidate –”; and

(b)         in lines 24 to 27 by the deletion of clause (2).

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this amendment is consequential as it is making reference to proportional representation system, which we have already discussed.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalaliindicated.

Hon. UPND Members:Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, Bembas say ‘Iwingila mumushitu, tomfwa inswanswa.’

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson:What does that mean?

Mr Mufalali:Sir, it means that whoever enters into the bush should not fear anything.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the PF Government is mutilating the Draft Constitution this morning.

Sir, the desire of the people to have proportional representation was to ensure that the President has less power. By removing Clause 2, we shall increase his powers to nominate people will be increased. The people wanted Clause 2 to be included in the Constitution so that the Protocol on the Rights of Women in African Union’s and Southern African Development Community Gender Protocol. Unfortunately, the PF Government sets a bad example when it comes to women representation. The President only nominated one woman out of eight hon. Members of Parliament he nominates.

Mr Muntanga: Which one?

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Sir, in addition, no disabled person or youth was nominated. The reason the people wanted the President to have less power was to ensure that a candidate does not lose out completely during an election. This Clause was actually going to promote harmony because in places where we do not have hon. Members of Parliament, we could have had representatives on the party list. As a Member of Parliament for Senanga, I support this Clause because the people of Senanga walked long distances to submit it. I am only amiable to the people who made their submissions and not the PF Government which is mutilating the Draft Constitution Bill in the early hours of the morning. I will continue to be on the side of the people. What matters in the end is not what the enemies say, but their silence.

Mr Chairperson, at the time the people of the United States of America were fighting the Germans, General Patton said that when all of us grow old …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mufalali: I am paraphrasing what he said.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can you allow the hon. Member to quote or paraphrase as the case may be.

Mr Mufalali: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Unfortunately, some of our friends have not even read the story of General Patton.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, he told those who fought the war to tell their grandchildren that they fought it with him.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, those PF will fail to tell their grandchildren it was them who mutilated the Draft Constitution. Those in the PF will be judged harshly ten years from now.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Eastern Province (Mr Sichone): Mr Chairperson, I am compelled to add my voice on the deliberations of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill.

Sir, some hon. Members have stated that by virtue of us removing the proportional representation electoral process, we are disadvantaging the women and disabled. In fact, had this Clause been passed, people would have been considered based on the qualifications and expertise which they possess. It is also unfortunate to hear people say that the President will have more powers by virtue of us returning the part of the Constitution where he nominates hon. Members of Parliament. It must be noted that if we had passed this Clause, the President would have had more powers because he would be the one coming up with the final party list.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sichone: Mr Chairperson, it is so visible that some of these undemocratic parties that have never even held a convention were going to abuse that particular Clause to an extent whereby Zambians were going to regret.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichone: Mr Chairperson, the parent Clause has been amended. There is no need for us to waste the people’s time by debating the contents of the Clause. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sichone:Sir, let me also mention that the more we talk, the more …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Sichone: … we are failing to relate the provisions of the Constitution to what happens in reality.

Interruptions

Mr Sichone: Sir, with these few remarks, I am compelled to say that we are not supposed to debate this matter in this manner.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I will take the last contribution. Please, let us remain focused. As it is, we appear to be involved in a cross-country debating instead of concentrating on the main issues. The issues are very limited. The issue on proportional representation through lists has already been dealt with. So, let us concentrate on discussing the purpose of the amendment. I know it is fashionable to talk especially that the session is being covered live. The people listening will judge us harshly if they fail to follow the arguments we are presenting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I do value and treasure your counsel. We have to be prudent in the way we use our time. We have a job to do here. No one is playing to gallery. This is a matter of procedure. As a matter of fact may I request you, Sir, that by decree of your authority everyone should be told wake up so that they listen to what I have to say.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, when we argued that it is going to be late …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let me just give guidance.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Since you have a right to consult, you may start by consulting those close to you …

Laughter

Hon. Members: Who are sleeping!

The Deputy Chairperson: … who are lost in deep thought.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I think posterity will judge us very harshly. I do not blame …

Mr Sichula: Your secretary-general is sleeping!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … the people who are sleeping on this side because they objected the bringing of the Adjournment Motion to the Floor of the House today.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, they knew they would be tired. There are some people who insisted that the Motion be debated today such as that one next to Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, who is fast asleep.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I guided that let us remain focused. You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, we come here to talk on behalf of the people. Thank you for being awake.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, according to the Minister of Justice, what we are looking is a consequential clause. I want to put it on record that we shall oppose even a comma which they think should be part of the consequential amendment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, if it is truly a consequential amendment, we must just skip the clauses we are looking at so that we can put an end to the business we are considering for the morning. We will not allow ourselves to be used. If it was not unparliamentary,  I would have said that we should not be a rubber stamping Parliament.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, we are being taken on a merry-go-round by being told that what we are looking at is a consequential amendment because we already dealt the issues surrounding mixed member representation and proportional representation.

Sir, we requested that this debate be engaged in when our minds are fresh. They rejected our suggestion because they want us to conclude matters while sleeping.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the Zambian people are going to judge us very harshly. There are some events which I want to be put on record which occurred in the evening. It was completely extenuating when we were battling to go to the bathrooms because there was no electricity. I believe that God was sending a message to us that what we doing here is incorrect.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, unfortunately, here we are proudly passing amendments to the Constitution while sleeping.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Professor Luo was sleeping.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it is only befitting that we all stay awake.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think it is important to remind each other that the rules of debate require us to debate relevantly. So, the rule of relevance is very important. I am appealing to you hon. Members, who will have the opportunity to debate to be as relevant as you possibly can in your debates.

Ms Lubezhi: Even Given is sleeping!

Mr Lubinda:Chilingalinga!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may proceed.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, those who think I am being naive should allow my naivety to be exposed because I represent people in Mazabuka Central Constituency. The hon. Deputy Minister who spoke before me insisted that we should not carry on debating the amendment which we are looking at because we have already dealt with other matters associated with it. The people of Mazabuka Central Constituency and the neighbouring constituencies, which include Kafue, Chikankata, Magoye and those in Lusaka Province such as Munali, told me to oppose even a comma.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Professor Luo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: There are no points of order which will be allowed tonight.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, as we are seated here calling ourselves Members of Parliament, we must be made aware that the turnover rate every five years of Members of Parliament who return to Parliament does not go above 60 per cent. We do not hold the legitimacy of changing what the people of Zambia said should be part of the Draft Constitution people of Zambia. That is why I am opposing the deletion of certain clauses. Even if in their world some clauses have been deleted already, the procedure of the House allows me to debate them. That is why the Chairperson has asked me to talk. When a better Government comes into power, it is going to enact into law some of the clauses which are being done away with today.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Nkombo: You can question yourself.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, we shall just need to see how can make some of the laws better.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, they seem to be cowards who are fearful of the results of the processes which they set in motion themselves. They deceived us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes! Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, colossal sums of money were spent on holding the district assemblies. I earned money from there and so did the Members on your right hand side. Turning around and saying that using certain processes today will be expensive is tantamount fraud.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: That is fraud.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Kambwili: Castle ikali.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I need your protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am just giving you that protection

Please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, on a serious note, Hon. Chishimba Kambwili said Castle ikali. Today, I have not touched Castle.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, if a breathalyse was used to check my breath, it would be discovered that what I am saying is true. I took two shots of Black Label whiskey.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, only two shots.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the time now is 0200 hours, and those who claim not to have taken anything are fast asleep. I took those shots of whiskey so that I could stay awake. Normally, I sleep at 2100 hours. Hon. Mwiimbu, Hon. Namugala and myself, talked among ourselves, and said that this idea of enacting a Constitution while people are asleep is frivolous, atrocious and amounts to trickery and treachery.

Mr Kambwili: And Castle.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, if that is what Castle does in Luanshya, so be it. As far as I am concerned, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: ... my suspicion is that, ...

Mr Muntanga:Ba Kambwili alubanje balafweba.

Mr Nkombo: ... those who have insisted that we should not meet later today, to deal with this matter, when all the Zambians are awake, have a hidden agenda. I am told that Parliament Radio has beenswitched off. What are they hiding from the people, the masters who chose them and put them where you are seated today? Now we have to cascade from legalities into moralities As he responds to the comments, the hon. Minister of Justice must tell me who gives him the moral right to think he can speak on behalf of many people who sat in the various district assemblies drafting the Constitution. I want him to tell me who gives him the right to come and mutilate this Draft Constitution. Why are the hon. Government Members engrossed with paranoia or fear of the unknown? As a matter of fact, the money for this process has already been spent.

Hon. Government Member: Two shots.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, a lot money has already been spent on the process. Yes, I took two shots.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am not shy to admit it. My taking of two shots is the Government’s making because I said that I did not want to work tonight. The point that I am making is that a lot of money was spent on this process. For instance, in the Southern Province, each hon. Member was given money to drive to Livingstone, which was the provincial capital, to sit in a provincial assembly for a period of not less than five days. We were being paid money for those days that we sat. How, then, can those in Government now come and say that they cannot complete these processes because the economy is not doing well? The in Government are guilty of firstly having mutilated the economy and now mutilating their own document. This PF Government has failed to complete the enactment of a document which is the party’s brain child. The PF is the one that appointed the eighteen man technical committee. It is the PF that was driving the entire process. So, it is folly and absurd for it to mould something and then throw it in the air and allow it to break on the ground. This is a historical day. If the PF meant well for this country, ...

Mr Lubinda:Mwakolewa.

Mr Nkombo:Ndiwe wakolewa.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Meaning what?

Mr Nkombo: Sir, some green horn is saying wakolewa.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is a green horn?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the ones laughing are the green horns.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am trying to put a point, ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

With or without two shots, we need to respect one another. Please, we are called hon. Members because that is what we ought to be. Therefore, let us be civil. With or without two shots, we can afford to be civil. 

Please, continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, in fact the influence of the two shots has finished. Thus, I need another two shots. If Ido not take the two shots, I will sleep like the hon. Members on your left hand side.

Hon. UPND Members: Right hand side.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am also capable of making a mistake. I meant the hon. Members on your right. The hon. Member who was sleeping is now awake. I was simply reminding us that Zambia has ten provinces. The core of my message is that there is a high turnover of Members of Parliament. Some hon. Members will not be remembered, even in the thread of history, as having been here to enact this law. That is because when the right Government comes in power, it will enact laws which will respond to the people’s aspirations.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, this particular clause is simply a consequence of what we changed before. I want to urge the PF to ride on. It should continue enacting the Constitution while asleep.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Two shots.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all those who have debated. I thank them all for their support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Article 71, on page 20, in lines 17 to 18 be amended by the deletion of the figure (1) and the words “A nomination for election to the National Assembly, for a constituency-based-seat, is valid if the candidate - ” and the substitution therefor of the following; “A nomination for election to the National Assembly is valid if the candidate - ”; and in lines 24 to 27, by the deletion of Clause (2), put and the House voted.

Ayes – (106)

Mrs Banda
Mr Banda I. 
Mr Banda N.
Mr Banda W.
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs Chungu
Mr Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama M.
Mr Malama M. H.
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu 
Mr Ngoma P.
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (38)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu 
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma L. J.
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Lt-Gen. Bishop Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Amendment agreed to. Article amendedaccordingly.

Clause 6 (71), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 72 – (Vacation of Office as Member of Parliament and Dissolution of Political Party)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, in Article 72:

(a)    on page 20, in lines 31 and 32, by the deletion of the words “holding a constituency-based-seat”;

(b)    on page 21:

(i)    in lines 11 to 19, by the deletion of Clause (3) and the substitution therefor of the following:

“(3)    The office of a nominated Member of Parliament becomes vacant if the member-

(a)    resigns by notice, in writing, to the speaker;
(b)    is disqualified under Article 70;
(c)    acts contrary to a prescribed code of conduct;
(d)    ceases to be a citizen;
(e)    dies; or
(f)    has the member’s nomination revoked by the President”; and

(ii)    in line 26, by the deletion of the words “Clauses (2) (e) or (3) (b)” and the substitution therefor of the words “Clause (2) (e)”;

(c)    on pages 21 and 22, by the deletion of Clause (6) and the substitution therefor of the following: 

“(6)    Where a court determines that an expulsion of a member, as provided in Clause (2) (e), was not justified, there shall be no by-election for that seat and the member shall opt to –

(a)    remain a member of the political party and retain the seat; or

(b)    resign from the political party and retain the seat as an independent member.”; and

(d)    on page 22:

(i)    in line 10, by the deletion of the words “Clauses (2) (e) or (3) (b) and the substitution therefor of the words “Clause (2) (e)”;

(ii)    in lines 12 and 17, by the deletion of Clause (8);

(iii)    in line 18, by the renumbering of Clause (9) as clause (8);

(iv)    in lines 18 and 19, by the deletion of the words “for a constituency-based-seat”; and 

(v)    in lines 23 and 29, by the deletion of Clause (10) and the substitution therefor of the following:

“(9)    If a political party is dissolved, a member of Parliament shall retain the member’s seat as an independent member.”.

Mr Chairperson, this amendment is consequential because it is removing reference to proportional representation, which the House has already dealt with, and also providing for grounds upon which the office of nominated hon. Member of Parliament becomes vacant.

Sir, I beg to move.

Interruptions

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, I would like to thank the hon. Members for their unanimous support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 6 (72) be amended on page 20, in lines 31 and 32, by the deletion of the words “holding a constituency-based-seat”;on page 21, in lines 11 to 19, by the deletion of Clause (3) and the substitution therefor of the following: “(3) The office of a nominated Member of Parliament becomes vacant if the member- resigns by notice, in writing, to the speaker, is disqualified under Article 70, acts contrary to a prescribed code of conduct, ceases to be a citizen, dies, or has the member’s nomination revoked by the President”; andin line 26, by the deletion of the words “Clauses (2) (e) or (3) (b)” and the substitution therefor of the words “clause (2) (e)”; on pages 21 and 22, by the deletion of clause (6) and the substitution therefor of the following:  “(6) Where a court determines that an expulsion of a member, as provided in clause (2) (e), was not justified, there shall be no by-election for that seat and the member shall opt to – remain a member of the political party and retain the seat, or resign from the political party and retain the seat as an independent member.”; and on page 22, in line 10, by the deletion of the words “Clauses (2) (e) or (3) (b) and the substitution therefor of the words “Clause (2) (e)”, in lines 12 and 17, by the deletion of clause (8), in line 18, by the renumbering of clause (9) as clause (8), in lines 18 and 19, by the deletion of the words “for a constituency-based-seat”, and in lines 23 and 29, by the deletion of clause (10) and the substitution therefor of the following: “(9) If a political party is dissolved, a member of Parliament shall retain the member’s seat as an independent member.”, put and the House voted.

Ayes – 106

    Mrs E. M. Banda

    Mr I. Banda

    Mr N. Banda

    Mr W. Banda
    
    Mr C. Bwalya

    Mr Chabala

    Col. Chanda

    Mr Chansa

    Mr Chenda

    Mr Chikwanda

    Mr Chilangwa

    Dr Chilufya

    Mr Ching’imbu

    Mr Chipungu

    Mr Chisala

    Mr Chishimba

    Mr Chisopa

    Mr Chitotela

    Mrs Chungu

    Mr Chungu

    Mr Evans

    Mrs Kabanshi

    Mr Kafwaya

    Dr Kaingu

    Mr Kalaba

Mr Kambwili

    Mr Kampyongo

    Ms Kansembe

    Ms Kapata

    Brig-Gen. Kapaya

    Mr Kapeya

    Mr Kapyanga

    Mr Kasandwe

    Dr Kasonde

    Mr Katambo

    Dr Katema

    Col. Kaunda

    Mrs Kawandami

    Ms Kazunga

    Mr Konga

    Mr Kosamu

    Mr Kufuna

    Mr Kunda

    Ms Limata

    Mr Lingweshi

    Mr Lubinda

    Dr Lungu

    Col. Lungu

    Prof. Luo

    Mr Mabumba

    Mr M. Malama

    Mr Mwimba H. Malama

    Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – 38 

    Mr Antonio

    Mr Belemu

    Mr Chitafu

    Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo

    Mr Habeenzu

    Mr Hamududu
    
    Mr Hamusonde

    Ms Imenda

    Dr Kalila

    Mr Kasonso

    Mr Katuka

    Mr Livune

    Mr Lombanya

     Ms Lubezhi

    Mr Lufuma

    Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

    Mrs Mazoka

    Mr Milambo

    Mr Miyanda

    Mr Miyutu

    Mr Mooya

    Mr Mufalali

    Mr Mulomba

    Mr Muntanga

    Dr Musokotwane

    Mr Mutati

    Mr Mutelo

Mr Mwiimbu

    Mr Ndalamei

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr Ntundu

Mr Pande

Ms Sayifwanda

Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions –Nil 

Amendment agreed to. Clause 6, amended accordingly.

Clause 6(71) as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 73 (Petition of election of Member of Parliament)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that Article 73, on page 22, in line 32 be amended by the deletion of the word “thirty” and the substitution therefor of the word “ninety”.

Mr Chairperson, this amendment is increasing the period within which a petition shall be heard by the High Court.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mutelo: Sir, since yesterday, this is my first debate today. In Information Communication Technology (ICT), there is malware software which damages computers. The software carries four in types of viruses which include Trojan horse and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: … spy worms. The virus was designed by a human being just to damage a computer.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, this is what PF is.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, it is a virus…

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: … which just wants to damage a document which was put together by the people.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, (pointing at the Bill) here it is saying thirty days. That is what has come from the people. The virus is saying ninety days.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir,I will not believe in the ninety days again. This song of ninety days has been going on for so long. If they had mentioned a different number rather than ninety, I would not have stood up to speak. Which surety do we have? The PF had said that it would deliver a people driven Constitution in ninety days. Unfortunately, this was never done.

Mr Lubinda: Which one is your constituency?    

Mr Mutelo: The Constituency is Lukulu West, Mitete kwa Washishi tate …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mutelo: We have stopped believing in the ninety days song.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, in ICT there is the recycle bin, where deleted things go. As long as that bin is not permanently deleted, the things will remain there. Anyone can retrieve what he or she wants from the bin. Whatever they are deleting into the recycle bin, someone will retrieve one day.

Sir, through that ICT knowledge I have, I can compare the PF to a virus.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the PF is like a Trojan Horse which comes through the back door.

Mr Milambo: Trojan what?

Mr Mutelo: Horse.

Mr Chairperson, immediately you tap the mouse of a computer, you can know if there is the Trojan Horse virus on it. This is what we are doing now. 

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, we have now realised that there is a Trojan Horse here. I remember going there (pointing on the Floor of the House) saying we want a people driven Constitution. I was there (pointing to the middle of the House).

Mr Milambo: Near the animals.

Mr Mutelo: The lion did not bite me for it also wanted a people driven Constitution.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Now, they are saying let us delete this and that.

Mr Sing’ombe: You were there with Vincent.

Mr Mutelo: You will be deleting on your own. I will not be part of the deleting process. 

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, for me, I will stand by what people want. How I wish the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central can give me water so that I can truly wash my hands off this deleting process now. (Hon. Nkombo, handed over an open bottle of water). It is okay.

Laughter

Mr Milambo: You are washing your hands?

Mr Mutelo: Yes.

Mr Chairperson, I have not taken any two shots or any castle.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, please proceed.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, you know…

The Deputy Chairperson: From Trojan horse to another topic, you have overflowed.

Mr Mutelo: Yes, the other viruses are worms. 

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, they multiply on their own maybe even through alliances.

Mr Nkombo: They do form alliances?

Mr Mutelo:Yes!

The other thing is that they spy. They can also spy so that they damage that which is…

Mr Kambwili: So, there are spies in MMD?

Mr Mutelo: … correct. It is a malicious software. That is what we are seeing just right here.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, why did the people suggest thirty days? We have seen petitions within the life of this Parliament taking almost two to three years.

Mr Milambo: Four years, some are still running.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, even if the Constitution says that the petition should be heard within ninety days, we have seen petitions taking a long time to be ruled upon. Some seats in here have been vacant for years and years. Thank God, evidence is there. I have my elder brother here, my only name sake, the Member of Parliament for Chipata Central. He almost got caught up in that web.

Mr Milambo laughed.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, they just wanted to keep him out of Parliament unnecessarily. Petitions should be dealt with within thirty days so that this House is not deprived of its membership which in turn will affect the representation of the constituencies. If we change to ninety days, the period within which an election petition may be heard, we shall be saying that we do not want people to be represented for ninety days. If the day of election is included, it becomes more than ninety days. This is why the people out there said that thirty days is enough.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Chairperson, can you see? When such happens, there is another malware outside there. Possibly, even the toilet rooms are now in the dark, like we saw earlier.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear! 

Hon. UPND Member: Malware!

Mr Kambwili:Chilechitafye ifyabupba ichinacho.

Mr Mutelo: We went outside. We had to suspend business. This is what we wanted.

Mr Chairperson, I stand by the thirty days which is in the Draft Constitution. As for the ninety days, yeoki yaba bamuba Patriotic Front (PF).

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mutelo: It means “that is for the PF”. It is not for me. 

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, in the midst of malwares, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili:Ngamwanaobe uyu, kuti wamupuma.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, under the existing Constitution, a petition may be heardwithin 180 days. The draft proposes to reduce the days to thirty. However, as we all know, the hon. Members of the Judiciary are not that many. Sometimes, a judge would have before him or her three to four petitions at one time. Therefore, it would be unrealistic to expect all the cases to heard within thirty days. We are merely trying to be realistic.

Sir, I would like to thank Hon. Mutelo for the debate and the other hon. Members for the support.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members/Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 6(73), on page 22, in line 32 be amended by the deletion of the word “thirty” and the substitution therefor of the word “ninety” put and the house voted.

The Deputy Chairperson:Order!

Due to one problem which must be attended to almost immediately, ...

Mr Nkombo: It is working now, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Ok. Thank you. We will proceed to vote.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ayes: (106)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs A. M. Chungu
Mr S. Chungu
Mr Evans
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Col. J. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr M. Malama
Mr M. H. Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ng’imbu
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr T. N. Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions: (0)

 Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.
    Clause 6(73), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

ARTICLE 74 – (Leader of Government Business and Leader of Opposition)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that Article 74 , on page 23 be amended as follows:

(a)    in line 1, by the deletion of the words “Parliamentary Secretary” and the substitution therefor of the word “Vice-President”;

(b)    in lines 3 and 4, by the deletion of Clause (2); and

(c)    in line 5, by the renumbering of Clause (3) as clause (2).

Sir, this amendment seeks to restore Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning to Leader of Government Business position in the House instead of a Parliamentary Secretary. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. I must hasten to mention that there is a problem with this amendment. This amendment is against the will of the people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Sir, that is why I do not agree with it. The people who we serve reserve the right to tell us how we should proceed regarding the constitutional amendments. We are not del credere agents. We are proxies of the people who sent us here. Thus, it important that whatever we do here reflects the will of the people. 

Sir, when the owners of the authority tell us not to go ahead with a certain actions, we must stop and go back to them for fresh instructions. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Sir, I cannot go against the wishes of my masters, the people who sent me here. So, without wasting much time, let me tell you that I hold a very simple position on this matter. I say no to this amendment. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Katombola for his debate, and I thank the House for its support.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division. 
Question that Clause 6(74), on page 23, (a) in line 1, be amended, by the deletion of the words “Parliamentary Secretary” and the substitution therefor of the word “Vice-President”; (b) in lines 3 and 4, by the deletion of clause (2); and (c) in line 5, by the renumbering of clause (3) as clause (2), put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (109)

Mrs Banda 
Mr N. Banda 
Mr I. Banda 
Mr W. Banda 
Mr Bwalya 
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa 
Mr Chenda 
Mr Chikwanda 
Mr Chilangwa 
Dr Chilufya 
Mr Ching’imbu 
Mr Chipungu 
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa 
Mr Chitotela 
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 
Mrs Chungu 
Mr Chungu 
Mr Evans
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya 
Dr Kaingu 
Mr Kalaba 
Ms Kalima 
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo 
Ms Kansembe 
Ms Kapata 
Brig-Gen Kapaya 
Mr Kapeya 
Mr Kapyanga 
Mr Kasandwe 
Dr Kasonde 
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema 
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami 
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga 
Mr Kosamu 
Mr Kufuna 
Mr Kunda 
Ms Limata 
Mr Lingweshi 
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu 
Col. Lungu 
Prof. Luo 
Mr Mabumba 
Mr M. Malama
Mr M. H. Malama 
Mr Masumba 
Mr Mbewe 
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Mbulu 
Ms Miti 
Mr Monde 
Mrs Mphande 
Mr Mpundu 
Mr Mtolo 
Mr Mubukwanu 
Mr Mukanga 
Mr Mukata 
Ms Mulasikwanda 
Mr Mulenga 
Mr Mumba 
Mr Mushanga 
Mr Musonda 
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati 
Mr Mvunga 
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta 
Mr Mwamba 
Mrs Mwanakatwe 
Mr Mwango 
Mr Mwenya 
Mr Mwewa 
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala 
Mr Namulambe 
Ms Ng’imbu 
Mr P. Ngoma 
Mr Ng’onga 
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri 
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata 
Mr Shamenda 
Mr Shuma 
Mr Siamunene 
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone 
Mr Sichula 
Mr Sikazwe 
Ms Siliya 
Mr Simbao 
Dr Simbyakula 
Mr Simfukwe 
Mr Tembo 
Prof. Willombe 
Mrs Wina 
Mr Yaluma 
Mr Zimba 
Mr Zulu 

Noes – (34)

Mr Antonio 
Mr Belemu 
Mr Chitafu 
Mr Habeenzu 
Mr Hamududu 
Mr Hamusonde 
Dr Kalila 
Mr Kasonso 
Mr Katuka 
Mr Livune 
Mr Lombanya 
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma 
Prof. Lungwangwa 
Ms Masebo 
Mrs Mazoka 
Mr Milambo 
Mr Miyanda 
Mr Miyutu 
Mr Mooya 
Mr Mufalali 
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga 
Dr Musokotwane 
Mr Mutelo 
Mr Mwiimbu 
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma 
Mr Ntundu 
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda 
Bishop Lt-Gen Shikapwasha 
Mr Sianga 
Mr Sing'ombe 

Abstentions (1)

Ms Imenda

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 6(74), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 6(75)(76)(77) and 78 ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 7(80)(81)(82)(83)(84)(85)(86)(87)(88) and (89) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8 – REPEAL AND REPLACEMENT OF PARTS VI TO XIV

Clause8(90)(91)(92)(93)(94)(95)(96)(97)(98)(99)(100)(101)(102)(103)(104)(105)(106)(107) (108)(109) and (110) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 111 – (Tenure of Office of Vice-President and Vacancy)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 111, on page 44, in lines 31 to 33 by the deletion of clause (7). 

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly

Clause 8(111), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

ARTICLE 111 – (Tenure of office of Vice-President and Vacancy)

Dr Simbyakula:Mr Chairperson, with regard to the other amendments on Article 111, as specified in paragraphs (a) to (e), I beg to withdraw them, as consultations with stakeholders have revealed that these amendments are not necessary, in view of the provisions of Article 108 Paragraphs (a) to (e) is as follows:

In Article 111, on page 44

(a)        After line 4
    by the insertion of the following new Clause:
“(3)    The President may remove the Vice-President from office for insubordination, 
incompetence or failure or neglect to perform the functions of the office subject to the 
approval of the National Assembly.”;

(b)    in Line 5,7,14 and 20
    by the renumbering of Clauses (3), (4) and (6) as Clauses (4), (5), (6) and (7) 
respectively;

(c)       in line 10
   by the insertion of the following paragraph:
      “(c) is removed from office by the President;”;

(d)         in lines 11 and 13
     by the renumbering of paragraphs (c) and (d) as paragraphs (d) and (e) respectively;

(e)         in lines 21 and 22
    by the deletion of the figures “(5)” and “(3)” and the substitution therefor of the figures     
    “(6)” and “(4)”;  

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, accordingly withdrawn.

Clause 8(111) ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

ARTICLE 112 – (Functions of Vice-President) 

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 112, on page 45, in lines 5 to 10 by the deletion of the heading of the words “and Parliamentary Secretaries”.

Sir, the amendment in Article 112 is consequential as it has already been dealt with. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 8(112), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

ARTICLE 113 – (Cabinet)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 113, on page 45:

(a)         in line 15
     by the insertion after the semi-colon of the word “and”;

(b)        in line 16
   by the deletion of paragraph (d); and

(c)        in line 17
    by the deletion of paragraph (e) as paragraph (d).

Sir, the amendment in Article 113 is simply the deletion of paragraph (d).

I thank you, sir. 

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly. 

Clause 8(113) as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 8(114) and (115) ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Article 116 – (Ministers)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson,I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 116, on page 46:

(a)        in lines 17 to 20
     by the deletion of Clause (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:
“(1)    The President shall appoint a prescribed number of Members of Parliament as Ministers.”;

(b)        in lines 27 and 28
    by the deletion of paragraph (c) and substitution therefor of the following:
“(c) in the case of a nominated Member of Parliament, the nomination is revoked;” and 

(c)       in lines 34 to 36
   by the deletion of clause (4).

Mr Chairperson, this amendment seeks to appoint a Cabinet from amongst Members of the National Assembly. The rationale is that appointment of a Cabinet from outside would compromise the principle of accountability to the House. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, the proposal to have Parliamentary Secretaries answering on behalf of the Executive has serious shortcomings in the sense they do not sit in Cabinet. Therefore, follow-up questions, in instances, of the House exercising its critical function, would be compromised because Parliamentary Secretaries would not be able to interrogate or respond to follow-up questions from Members of Parliament.  

Furthermore, experience from elsewhere on the continent, where this principle of appointment of Cabinet from outside was adopted, shows that there are serious challenges. We must, therefore, draw lessons from the experiences of others so as to avoid falling into the same pitfalls. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I had to wake up for this one. I was literally sleeping.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, this is a very substantial element. This debate began at the dawn of the reintroduction of multi-partism. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was very vibrant when it came into office. I remember that there was a time my seat was held by a vibrant Member, Hon. Baldwin Nkumbula. The MMD was dissatisfied with the democracy in this House and talked about the lack of separation of powers. As things are now, when you become an hon. Minister, it is like you basically seize to be a Member of Parliament.

Mr Livune: That’s right.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, that is why hon. Ministers would be told to sit down if they wanted to complain about the state of facilities in their constituencies because they are in Government. Basically, the constituencies which are represented by hon. Ministers have no one to speak on their behalf on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, this system is not working for us. This is the reason our institutions are weak. 

Mr Chairperson, let us stop blaming the civil servants for the failed projects. It is our system which is weak.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, half of this Parliament is made up of the Executive. Whichever party is voted into power will have most of its hon. Members being part of the Executive.

Mr Livune: Mushanga is sleeping! 

Mr Hamududu: I have seen four Presidents in this House. I have seen Mwanawasa, may his soul rest in peace, Mr Ruphia Banda ...

Hon. UPND Members: May his soul rest in peace.

Laughter 

Mr Hamududu: Do not say that. He is alive and should be respected. I have also seen Mr Michael Sata, may his soul rest in peace and now President Edgar Lungu. I was not in the House when President Lungu addressed the House.

Sir, there seems to be an element of self interest by politicians who want to eat with both hands. The problems here are caused by the politicians who do not want the separation of powers. If you think you are ministerial material then do not stand for you parliamentary seat. Go and campaign with your President so that you can come back here as an hon. Minister.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Sir,the President needs a bigger pool of talent to tap from. He should not be limited to only picking hon. Ministers from 158 Members. There are other people who can be better hon. Ministers than us. The President must be given the leeway to look at the entire country. The President should pick the best people to drive this country forward while we here as Parliamentarians can unite in providing checks and balances.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Ministers out number us here. Is that how Parliament should operate?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, it should not. The Executive has invaded the House and taken over. This is a very serious matter. We need to strengthen the operations of the Executive and Judiciary. The problem starts at the top. The fish rots from the head. Our system is getting rotten from the head. We are part of the rotten system.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Aah!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, the Patriotic Front (PF) should not betray the people. We are all here temporarily. We all come and we all go, please leave a legacy. One day you will be ‘a former’.

Mr Livune: Former Justice Minister.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, there is a very nice proposal here that when hon. Ministers are appointed, they will have to go under scrutiny. There is a lot of misplacement in this House. How can an engineer be made the hon. Minister Community of Development and Social Welfare?When your name comes here for ratification and we lay your resumeon the table, we will analyse it critically. We will help the President to have people in the Executive who will complement each other. When the President says that he wants to appoint someone to be Minister, we will have to assess the capabilities of that individual. This is very important because the President should have competent people to work with. I am not saying that those who are there are not qualified. All I am saying is that those who get to ministerial positions should be critically scrutinised before they assume office. 

Sir, how do we expect the Civil Service and the councils to be efficient when the hon. Ministers are not efficient? The problem with this country is at the very top. We need to strengthen the institutions at the top and separate their powers. The doctrine of separation of powers must be respected from the top to the bottom. Unfortunately, these days, it is as if people just want to have flags on their cars.

Mr Chairperson, my calling in politics is service and not to have a flag on my car.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, if we went into power and I was not given a position, I would not be bothered. The wealth of our people matters the most to me. I can do better things. I can drive a car of an hon. Minister even without being one.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, how does one want people to suffer just because he or she wants to drive a car with a flag? Africans disappoints me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Sir, what kind of people of people are we? Selfish politicians have destroyed Africa.

Mr Livune: We are bewitched.

Mr Mufalali: Who bewitched us?

Mr Hamududu: Sir, this submission was upheld at the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and also in the Committee’s report. We all need to stand up and support it.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Stand up and support it, Kampyongo. 

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I know that there are going to use their arrogance of numbers to defeat us. That is tragic. I have seen the arrogance of numbers destroying this country in the nine years I have been here. Sometimes, I feel like leaving Parliament to go and look after my animals. I can even pay five hon. Members from what I will make from that business. What we are doing is not good.

Sir, this issue is more important than the running mate Clause and even the fifty per cent plus 1 Clause. These Presidents are not inherently bad people. It is the system which they work with which is bad. Anyone who becomes a President under this Constitution has the potential of becoming a bad ruler because Parliament is so impotent. The President has too much power. How can you check on someone who appointed half of the Parliament? The ghost of the President is always here even if he is physically not here. 

Mr Nkombo: They are all puppets.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, they cannot check his excesses. 

Mr Chairperson, the appointment of hon. Ministers outside Parliament is the most important element in the entire constitutional reform process because it will help Parliament to fulfil its real mandate of providing checks and balances. If those in power want to continue the same way things have been done all along then let them do away with this Parliament. Why are they wasting money to pay us? Let them just come here and rule. 

Sir, in my nine years of being here, I have seen the same things happen over and over. Our friends in Government are now behaving like those who belonged to the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) when they were in power. What we are calling for is what the people demanded for when they appeared before the NCC. I am sure everybody here knows about the theory of the separation of powers.

Mr Mufalali: They do not know.

Mr Livune: Just forgive them my dear.

Mr Hamududu: Sir,some of them are even more knowledgeable than some of us, but continue doing certain things just because they want to continue having flags on their cars.

Mr Chairperson, I think some of them want to remain in Parliament even when the President loses. That is selfishness. Can you only earn your bread and butter in Parliament? Is that the only time you can appear in the newspapers? Mawe!

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr Hamududu: I am surprised to the bone.

Sir, this country could have been in a better state. This country was destroyed from its very foundation and continues to be destroyed by its leadership. Populism and self-interest are destroying us. At Independence, this country was the second richest in Africa after Tunisia. It has been taken to the bottom because of bad governance. 

Sir, I really want to tell my colleagues that if they will go ahead without upholding the people’s aspirations which were made as far as 1991, then they will be practicing betrayal of the highest order. I will be very disappointed if they do that. I speak with a lot of respect because I know that we are all human beings. I will be very disappointed if the hon. Minister will continue with the amendments. If he does not withdraw this amendment, the whole multi-party democracy system we fought for when I was still a student will be fallacy. This means that our struggle will have been taken over by politicians. 

Mr Chairperson, when the MMD was in Government, we fought together with the Members of the PF for the very things which they are supporting today. The Garden House incident came after us. Professor Lungwangwa knows very well that they were all afraid to face Dr Kaunda. We went and faced the policemen. We did not join politics now. Some of us are tested politicians. Intellectually, we know everything from the grassroots. Dr Kaunda was shaken, after we met our colleagues at Garden House. 

Sir, currently, a President is so strong such that he cannot be checked? He can do things anyhow. The President would say this today and another thing tomorrow without being impeached. Mr Tabo Mbeki, who was even a better President, was withdrawn from the Presidency by his party.  In this country, we blame the civil servants for the failure of all the projects. For me, projects fail because this Parliament is not strong. If we had a strong Parliament, the President can be impeached for failing to perform his duties. If a President is abusing human rights, he should be kicked out. Once a person becomes a President, they lose their rights. Now, this Government has created a monster of the Presidency. No wonder the Presidency is so attractive these days. Everyone wants to be a President because of the trappings of power.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Yes, everyone who owns a kantemba party wants to be a President. If this Constitution became tighter, people would think twice before they decide to run for the Presidency. 

Sir, I wish to urge the hon. Members of the PF to think critically about what they are trying to do. They have another opportunity or a second chance. We are fortunate that we have a God of  second and third chances. The future of the Zambian people lies in the decision which we will make today. The people want an efficient Government that will translate potential into actual better living, which has been eluding them for a long time. We are not a kingdom where a group of people continue getting their way. 

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I have been waiting for this Article to come up for consideration so that I contribute to the debate.  I, will therefore, be waiting to hear from the hon. Minister.   

I thank you, Sir.

Business was suspended from 0308 hours until 0330 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSONin the 
Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: When business was suspended, the House was considering the Committee State of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, N. A. B. No. 17 of 2015, Article 116.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to say a few words on Article 116, which is very important. 

Sir, it is said that man is driven by two issues in the performance of their duties. The first one is greed. Greed means doing something that will primarily benefit that individual.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, the other one is fear. This is fear to do that which is right. It might also mean failing to say something negative because of the fear of the peers. This is also fear because one wants favour such as a promotion or recognition. These two really work for the purposes of self-survival. 

Sir, it is very clear that Article 116 will serve our country well. I am convinced that things should be that way because I have been part of the Government before. The principle of collective responsibility entails that even when one does not agree with what has been decided upon, he or she cannot say so because of following the principle of collective responsibility. That might not necessarily be for the greater good. When I was in Government, I was part of the enforcement of certain regulations which I did not agree for the sake of collective responsibility.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I want to take the debate of hon. Hamududu as my very own.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, to have a truly independent Parliament, it is important that Parliamentarians do their job without fear. They should do their job without that element of self-serving greed. 

Mr Chairperson, when I look at my colleagues who are in Cabinet with their Deputy Ministers, there is no way someone can disagree on the floor of the House after an agreement has already been made in a Cabinet meeting. That is impossible! Otherwise, one has to resign. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, what we are seeing is that the needs of the constituency are being compromised.  

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen Dr Chituwo:Sir, the principle of true principle of checks and balances is also being compromised. 

Sir, if some people feel that the position of an hon. Member of Parliament (MP) is inferior to that of an hon. Cabinet Minister, then, surely administratively, we can do something about that. I, therefore, propose that the portfolio Chairperson be at the same level as that of an hon. Cabinet Minister.

Mr Chairperson, there should be no difference in the perks of an hon. Cabinet Minister and a people’s representative. I believe that the difference is what is causing people to clamor for ministerial positions.

Sir, it does not work well for the people’s representatives to serve as hon. Cabinet Ministers at the same time. After all, the supremacy of the people will be evident in terms of this House cross checking the resumes of those who are appointed to serve in the Executive. It is the President who has been elected by the people. It is him who has the mandate to fulfill his promises to the people. Therefore, anybody that he appoints to be hon. Minister must deliver. If the person fails to deliver, the President must feel free to fire the individual. It is the responsibility of the President to ensure that the hon. Ministers deliver.

Mr Chairperson, what we are proposing will kill two birds with one stone because it will improve on the efficiency of Cabinet and the President. The President has a contract with the people. 

 Hon. Government Members: Brian Chituwo!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: That is my name.

Sir, I am very passionate about what I am talking about. Let us not defend certain positions just because weare hon. Ministers. Let us do things which people will commend us for long after we have left office. This proposal is good for the sake of progress in terms of the governance of our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo:Mr Chairperson, why are there fears? For power to be effective, it has to be shared. The Executive should share power with Parliament because the common agenda between of the two institutions is to uplift the living standards of our people. I am urging the hon. Members of the PF Government to rise above greed, self-preservation and the fear of doing the right thing. When they do that, they will make history my friends. It is unfortunate that they have kept on dismissing all the good suggestions from the Opposition.

Mr Chairperson, no one holds on to power forever. After handing over power, it is nice to look back at the good things which you did.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo:Sir, it would be good for those in Government now to look back after a few years and see how much they contributed to the strengthening of the democracy of this country.

Hon.  Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo:Mr Chairperson,I am, therefore, urging the hon. Minister of Justice to withdraw this proposal. I am sure that most of my colleagues know that each time I make a contribution, it is in good faith.

Hon.  Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo:Sir, as it is the case with the arrogance of numbers, people tend to lose focus. Believe me, we shall all be judged by the individual decisions which we make.

Mr Chairperson, the ratification of the would be Hon. Ministers is another way to strengthen the Presidency because then, he will have men and women who will deliver. Parliament will have a role to play in insuring that the right people work for our country.

Sir, with these few words, I would like to once again say that it will be a good thing to have this amendment withdrawn.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.  

Hon.  Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President(Mr Bwalya):  Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor of the House. 

Sir, from the outset, I want to state that I support the amendments. 

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear! Ema ministers aba!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I have a few reasons to support the amendment on the Floor. First of all, the Zambian people are asked to elect their representatives to preside over the affairs of this country. Therefore, those who are elected are expected to provide the desired leadership. 

Sir, of what use will it be for us to go for elections and ask people to vote and, thereafter, we tell them that the people whom they voted for are not good enough to be hon. Ministers. Let us respect the will of the people. The ones who should run the affairs of the country are the ones who are elected by the people.

Mr Chairperson, this is not different from what was being proposed under the proportional representation because this is creating another layer of cost. The President will have to pick completely different individuals who will be put on the payroll other than the hon. Members of Parliament.           

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Separation of powers.

Mr Bwalya: I will soon talk about separation of powers. Just hang on.

Mr Chairperson, what we are trying to do will create another layer of costs. We are mindful that we have a responsibility as a Government to manage the resources of our country prudently. According to the law, an individual should not get two salaries. That is the more reason hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers get one salary.

Mr Mwaliteta: Of course!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, that is how it is supposed to be.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the separation of powers. At the time we were debating the budget for the Judiciary, I said that there is no absolute separation of powers even in countries like the United States of America (USA) and United Kingdom (UK). Constitutionally, we are supposed to be the only sole legislators in this country, even though, there is delegated legislation. The Executive has powers to make laws and by the time it brings them to this House, it might have even acted upon them. We also have powers to adjudicate on our affairs in this House. We decide on the punishment to be given to those who era and the Judiciary also make laws. We all know of cases of law …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Bwalya: If you do not know, you should now know that there is case law. This involves judgements which are passed based on the rulings which were passed on cases which had been before the courts of law before.

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, we have enhanced appointments by placing people in correct positions based on their qualifications. Most hon. Ministers serve in ministries which they are knowledgeable about. For example, the learned hon. Minister of Justice is a lawyer, Hon. Mukanga is an engineer and is in charge of the Ministry of Works and Supply and Dr Kasonde is a medical doctor and is in charge of the Ministry of Health.

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us desist from debating ourselves.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I was merely justifying my point that it is possible to place people in ministries based on their abilities and qualifications even under the current dispensation.

Sir, the other aspect that I want to bring to the attention of this House is the fact that when people want to form a political party, they share a vision, mission and values and then come up with a manifesto.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, a person who is not part of that party may find it difficult to achieve the targets which are contained in the vision.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I am aware that in some African countries, Presidents appoint hon. Ministers outside Parliament. I have visited some of those countries and seen the difficulties which they face.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Bwalya:Sir, we are not an island. We can learn from what is happening in other countries. We must reflect consciously on what is happening in other countries.

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya:Mr Chairperson, I am glad that the previous speaker stated that he was once in Government. Collective responsibility calls for shared vision, mission and values. Thus, it is important that those to be part of the Executive are picked from amongst ourselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Question!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Simbyakula:Mr Chairperson, all major democracies on this planet appoint their Cabinets from Parliament. The largest democracy in the world today …

Mr Livune: Which one is that?

Dr Simbyakula: … which is India appoints its Cabinet from Parliament.

Hon. Government Members:Yes!

Mr Kambwili: The UK.

Dr Simbyakula:Sir, the United Kingdom Parliament often called the mother of all Parliaments also appoints its hon. Ministers from Parliament …

Mr Mwaliteta: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: … and the Prime Minister of England is a Member of Parliament. In the Commonwealth, Cabinets are appointed from Parliament. As we are all aware, the United States of America (USA) has had a long standing tradition of appointing its Cabinet from outside the legislature. Kenya recently adopted the American system. Most of us have been to Kenya. The Kenyans have told us about the challenges which they are facing.

Ms Lubezhi: Aah! Question!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, we must draw lessons from the challenges which are being faced today. Let us not rush into experiments which will lead us into uncharted waters.

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people want an Executive which is accountable to them …

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: … through their elected representatives. They do not want a group of whiz kids, so to speak, appointed and accountable to one person. They want their representatives to scrutinise the work of the Executive through the critical function of the Legislature. That is why we, on this side, are seriously convinced that a Cabinet appointed from Parliament will be responsible to the electorates through their elected representatives. Let us not rush into experiments. Most of the hon. Members have traveled around so much in the Commonwealth countries and are aware that you cannot have a group of people from nowhere …

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: … holding so much power, who should be accountable only to the appointing authority

Ms Lubezhi: He is nowhere yes!

Mr Kambwili: He is a Member of Parliament.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people are listening to all of us. We need a Cabinet that is accountable to the people through their elected representatives.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I would like to thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for division.

Questionthat Clause 8, Article 116, on page 46 be amended (a) in line 17 to 20 by the deletion of Clause (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

“(1) The President shall appoint a prescribed number of Members of Parliament as 
Ministers.”,

(b)  in lines 27 and 28 by the deletion of paragraph (c) and substitution therefor of the    
     following:

         “(c) in the case of a nominated Member of Parliament, the nomination is revoked;” ;   
          and

 (c)  in lines 34 to 36 by the deletion of Clause (4), put and the House voted.

Ayes – (105)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs A. M. Chungu
Mr S. Chungu
Mr Evans
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Col. J. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr M. Malama
Mr M. H. Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr T. N. Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Lt-Gen. Bishop Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 8(116), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 117 – (Provincial Ministers)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 8, Article 117, on page 47:

(a)     in lines 2 and 3 by the deletion of the words “persons who are not Members of Parliament but qualify to be Members of Parliament” and the substitution therefor of the words “among Members  of Parliament”;

(b)     in line 10 by the deletion of the word “or”;

(c)     in line 13 by the deletion of the full stop and the substitution therefor of a semi-colon and the word “or”;

(d)     After line 13 by the insertion of the following new paragraph:

               “(f) in the case of a nominated Member of parliament, the nominated is   
                revoked.”;

(e)     in lines 16 to 18 by the deletion of paragraph (b);

(f)     in lines 19 and 21 by the renumbering of paragraphs (c) and (d) as paragraphs (b) 
and (c); and

(g)    in lines 25 to 28 by the deletion of Clause (4).

On pages 47 and 48 by the deletion of Article 118.

On pages 58 and 59 by the deletion of Article 150.

On pages 60 to 64 by the deletion of Articles 153, 154,155, 156, 157, 158 and 159.

Mr Chairperson, this amendment is consequential as Provincial Ministers will be appointed from among Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Chairperson, thank you, as I debate this particular Article, I would be referring to the amendment that has been made by the hon. Minister of Justice under Article 116. 

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice has indicated to us that this particular amendment is consequential. This particular amendment is not consequential. The amendments are totally different. He is saying that the amendment under Article 117 is similar to the one under Article 116. They are not. 

Mr Chairperson, this is one of the most obnoxious Articles in the Constitution of Zambia. It is not unusual for Opposition political parties to complain pertaining to the appointment of their hon. Members into Government. The different Presidents of have used this particular Article to appoint hon. Members of the Opposition into Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame, shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, members of the public have lamented and complained about this particular practice. This particular practice is highly undemocratic and is not in the interest of any political party.

Sir, we are all aware of the voting patterns. We have some hon. Members of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) who are in Government. Despite the fact that the hon. Members belonging to the MMD were instructed to vote in a particular way, those in Government have not done that because they believe that they have to follow collective responsibility. They voted with the party that has no interest in the affairs of the MMD. Even in the United Party for National Development (UPND), we have hon. Members who do not vote with us. They have no interest in the affairs of our party.They always condemn us and associate themselves with the political party that has appointed them in Government. We have heard certain colleagues saying that they have been swallowed. Even their legs are now in the stomach. It is because their allegiance is no longer with the political party that brought them in this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Swallowed.

Mr Mwiimbu:Sir, they have been swallowed. Technically, those who have been appointed as hon. Members of the Executive have crossed the Floor. They will never vote with the political party that brought them in this House.

Mr Mushanga: Masebo.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, that is why the people of Zambia have condemned this particular clause. They have been saying this clause is not in the interest of democracy. They have been saying there must be a clause through which the Ruling Party can appoint the Cabinet from its own members. We associate with hon. colleagues on your right and are aware that hon. Back Benchers have been complaining about the Government appointing hon. Members from the Opposition who do not share the PF vision. Some hon. Deputy Ministers have been asking that: How can you appoint people who do not have a common vision with you? That is exactly what the PF has been doing. Its only interest is to deplete the numbers of the Opposition. That is what has been going on. That is why the people of Zambia have been agitating for the appointment of Cabinet from outside Parliament. Hon. Members of the Cabinet should not be appointed from the Opposition.

Hon. Government Member:Nga Mucheleka?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we have heard from the hon. Minister of Justice and hon. the Deputy Minister indicating that it is undemocratic for the President to appoint somebody who has not been elected ...

Hon. UPND Member: From nowhere.

Mr Mwiimbu: ... to a Cabinet position. What the hon. Minister of Justice is saying is that it is not correct for the President to nominate hon. Members of Parliament and appoint them in the Cabinet.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, those hon. Members were not elected by the people. The Government is questioning such provisions. Its point is that if somebody has not been elected directly by the people, then that person should not be in the Cabinet. That is the argument that the PF has given us this morning. I agree with the PF when it says if someone has not been elected by the people, then that person should not be in Cabinet. Such people must resign, go to the people and get elected.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, that is what we are saying. Those who have just been appointed from nowhere are quite a number here. They have no constituency. I am not the one questioning those appointments. It is the PF Government that is questioning them. Some of the hon. Government Members are wondering why they have been appointed into the Cabinet when they have no position and have not been elected.

Mr Chairperson, there is no way a President can appoint somebody from outside Parliament if the person being appointed has no common vision with the party. If the President appointed his Cabinet from outside Parliament, the people to serve in the Cabinet will have common interests. That is what happens, and is obtaining in a number of jurisdictions. The Government has complained that this system does not work. Rwanda, which was at war, is doing better than us. That country is progressing well, and yet it has its Cabinet is from outside Parliament. The United States of America (USA) has its Cabinet from outside. India is not the best example. The best example is the USA. The system there has worked and is being replicated in many places.

Sir, speaking as an hon. Member of the Opposition and taking into account what has been done to us, after having spent so much money and having supported hon. Members of the Opposition, some hon. Members have crossed the Floor and they have been abusing us. We cannot allow such a situation to continue. When we are given an opportunity, we will amend the law, and we will allow those from our own party to be appointed in the Cabinet. We are not going to be getting people from outside unless those people are in an alliance with the UPND. When there is an alliance, mutually, you agree with the political parties that you are going to work together. However, the PF has been appointing individuals without even consulting the political parties involved. These individuals have no loyalty to their own political parties. Their loyalty lies with the appointing authority.

Mr Chairperson, the PF Government has been talking about morality and decency. Is there any decency for someone who claims to be UPND to vote against what the party believes in? What that means therefore, is that such an individual is not a member of the UPND. That person crossed the Floor and is with the PF. According to what has been proposed, the elections will take place on the second Thursday of August, 2016. If this Constitution passes, the day of reckoning will come for all those who are working against their own parties. The bells are tolling. They will have to find a political party on which ticket they will stand, and not in the UPND because we do not agree with their vision. I do not support this particular amendment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I want to refer to Article 117. This article, relates, in many ways, to Article 116, which has just been passed. My point here is not so much to debate the advantages and disadvantages of this clause. Suffice it to say that when I see such amendments on many important clauses that the people of Zambia brought up, they remind me of the time I served as a member of the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and I recall that this was one of the issues which were very hot.

Sir, Articles 116 and 117 are almost the same. Just like in the past, I am personally against the appointment of hon. Ministers or their deputies from outside Parliament. Therefore, what is happening today really makes me sad. One colleague said that today is a day of reckoning and we are privileged to be here because history is being made. However, I am sad to be part of the making history that will give us a bad name for the rest of our lives.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We have let down the Zambian people. If I am not mistaken, this will be the fourth time we are doing this to them. Looking at what happened in other Constitutional-making processes, I think what we are doing now is the worst. This is why I keep saying it was better for the Draft Constitution to have been taken for a referendum, as we had agreed initially. The Zambian people should have had an opportunity to scrutinise the new Constitution before it was brought here for enactment. Moreover, we should not even pretend to amend the existing Constitution. What we are amending is the Draft Constitution, which is totally new. 

Mr Chairperson, since somebody sees this as a great opportunity to make history, I really wish that for once, Zambian leaders can truly represent the wishes of the people. True representation entails doing that which the people want. We cannot claim to be true representatives of the people if what we are doing is totally different from what they want. 

Sir, if the adjustments to the Draft Constitution were just one or two, I would have understood that to be as a result of financial considerations. However, even clauses that mainly relate to governance issues and have nothing to do with financial resources have been left out. Some people want to act smart by speaking good English and claiming that only one major adjustment has been made to the original document. However, if you read between the lines, you will see, as Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo pointed out, that these amendments are for political expediency. Somebody somewhere wants to benefit from these amendments. All the issues that affect the people who sent us to this House have been rejected.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Even having the clause for the 50 per cent plus one for the presidential winning threshold that some people want to talk about is a political issue. Having a presidential running mate is all about politicians. We have, however, not addressed issues of governance which can make institutions better and force us to do the right thing as individuals, regardless of the political office we hold. We need strong institutions that will make us adhere to the rules and regulations that we set for ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, wonder what we are doing if we cannot even include simple clauses in the new Constitution that have nothing to do with financial resources. We have basically rejected everything the people said when making submissions to the Draft Constitution. This is why I said when I begun this debate that we should have just shelved the whole document since we do not have the money to ensure the enactment of a people-driven Constitution. We could have come back, in future, to do what the people want when we are ready. What we have done today is betrayal of the worst kind.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: I must repeat that I feel very sad about this. I am sad to be part of a Parliament that has disappointed its people. We are even worse than our friends who disappointed our people long before us. Therefore, I do not support what we are doing here.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this important debate. First and foremost, it must be noted that it is very difficult to understand where certain people belong and what they stand for, especially those that join a new political party every five years.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Whenever they change their political party, they also change what they stand for. We were with them in the Cabinet not long ago and they were in the forefront of supporting the amendments we are making now. They even advised against having the 50 per cent plus one presidential winning threshold. However, today, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is a rule that we should not debate ourselves.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I am not mentioning any names. Today, because some people are about to jump into another political party, which they have principally joined already, they want to speak the loudest. They do not know what they stand for.

Hon. Opposition Members: Kafwaya!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, let me clarify the idea of appointing hon. Ministers from outside Parliament and clauses on which we have made amendments in case some people have not quantified this in monetary terms. One of those that are specialised in jumping ship every now and then said some clauses that we have amended have nothing to do with money. However, some of these clauses could have brought in 534 more people on the Government’s payroll.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Yes, 500.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Apart from the 150 hon. Members of this House, people from outside Parliament would be given ministerial positions. By the way, the difference in salaries between hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament is very negligible, even though some people have been crying foul. Therefore, why do we want to bring 534 more politicians on the Government’s payroll overnight?

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in the end, it is our colleagues on your left who will complain about is a bloated Government. Can we be consistent on these matters. What we are seeing is a display of double standards of the worst kind.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I can give hon. Members of the Opposition the figures. If we had to talk about the provincial assemblies, each province would have about forty-two members. Forty-two by ten is 420.

Ms Lubezhi: That is nothing.

Mr Kambwili: If we add twenty hon. Ministers and ninety-four hon. Members of Parliament to that, the total is 524.

Ms Lubezhi: That is nothing.

Mr Kambwili: You are saying it is nothing because you have never been in the Government before. You have never handled public money or the National Budget before.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, you think it is okay to pay 534 more politicians instead of teachers. How many teachers can be employed using the money that would pay 534 more politicians? Most hon. Members of the Opposition are just interested in being members of provincial assemblies because they know that they willearn more allowances at provincial assemblies when we are on recess. This is totally against the interests of the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Kambwili: They should not hide behind trying to empower women and children.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Their main interest is earning allowances. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: They must be ashamed of themselves.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, desist from debating your friends, hon. Minister.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, we do not have the money to start paying twenty more people appointed as hon. Ministers from outside Parliament. Within the 150 hon. Members of Parliament, we can appoint a Minister who will get a salary that is marginally different from when they were mere hon. Members. Bringing another twenty people on the Government payroll would be unfair and at the expense of provisions of other social aspects in the country. This country does not start and end with politicians. There are other people who need to be paid.

Mr Milambo: Like yourself.

Mr Kambwili: Teachers and nurses are already complaining about their salaries not being enough. Instead of increasing their salaries, you want to bring more politicians here to be paid allowances. Stop being inconsistent. Do not just look at yourselves. Let us think of the poor people on the street.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We are a responsible people and are against this idea of bringing in 534 more politicians and creating provincial assemblies. We have to use the money that we have to provide services in hospitals, to build more schools and employ more teachers and not to bring in more politicians. We have so many politicians already.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I support the amendment.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, as I had indicated earlier, ministerial responsibility is universally accepted. An hon. Member of Parliament whether elected or nominated, who is a member of the Cabinet, is accountable to Parliament unlike those appointed from outside the National Assembly. I need to stress that point. 

With those few words I would like to thank all those who have debated.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question that Article 117 on page 47 be amended: in lines 2 and 3, by the deletion of the words “persons who are Members of Parliament but qualify to be Members of Parliament” and the substitution therefor of the words “among Members of Parliament”; in line 10, by the deletion of the word “or”; in line 13, by the deletion of the full stop and the substitution therefor of a semi-colon and the word “for”; after line 13, by the insertion of the following paragraph, “(f) in the case of nominated member of Parliament, the nomination is revoked. In lines 16 to 18, by the deletion of paragraph (b); in lines 19 and 21, by the renumbering of paragraphs (c) and (d) as paragraphs (b) and (c); and in lines 25 to 28 by the deletion of clause (4), put and the House voted.

Ayes – 106

Mrs E. M. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr C. Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Mr Ching’imbu

Mr Chisala

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mrs Chungu

Mr Chungu

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr Lungu

Col. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama

Mr Mwimba H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – 36 

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu
    
Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutati

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Ndalamei

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr Pande

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – Nil

Amendment agreed to. Article 117, amended accordingly.

Clause 8(117), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Article 118 (Parliamentary Secretaries).

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that Article 118 be deleted.

Mr Chairperson, this is consequential as it seeks to remove the provision relating to Parliamentary Secretaries.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to. Article 118, amended accordingly.

Clause 8(118), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8(119)(120)(124)(125)(126)(127)(128)(129)(130) and (131)ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8(132)(133)(134)(135)(136)(137)(138)(139)(140)(141)(142)(143)(144)(145) and (146) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 Article 150 – (Conflict between National and Provincial Legislation)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the Bill be amended on pages 58 and 59 by the deletion of Article 150. 

Mr Chairperson, this amendment is consequential as it seeks to delete to reference to provincial assemblies.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 8(150) as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8(151) and (152) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Articles 153 – (Provincial Assemblies), 154 – (Functions and Procedures of Provincial Assembly), 155 – (Provincial Local Acts and words of Enactment), 156 – (Retrospective Legislation), 157 – (Provincial Speaker and Deputy Provincial Speaker), 158 – (Staff of Provincial Assemblies), 159 – (Reserved Power over Non-performing Local Authorities).

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the Bill be amended on pages 60 to 64 by the deletion of articles 153 to 159. 

Mr Chairperson, these articles relate to provincial assemblies which the House has already dealt with and are merely consequential.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.

The Deputy Chairperson:Question that Clause 8, on pages 60 to 64, be amended, by the deletion of Articles, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158 and 159, put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (105)

Mrs Banda 

Mr I. Banda 

Mr N. Banda 

Mr W. Banda 

Mr Bwalya 

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda 

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda 

Mr Chilangwa 

Dr Chilufya

Mr Ching’imbu 

Mr Chisala 

Mr Chishimba 

Mr Chisopa 

Mr Chitotela 

Mrs Chungu 

Mr Chungu 

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi 
Mr Kafwaya 

Dr Kaingu 

Mr Kalaba 

Ms Kalima 

Mr Kampyongo 

Ms Kansembe 

Ms J. Kapata 

Brig-Gen Kapaya 

Mr Kapeya 

Mr Kapyanga 

Mr Kasandwe 

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo 

Dr Katema 

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga 

Mr Konga 

Mr Kosamu 

Mr Kufuna 

Mr Kunda 

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi 

Mr Lubinda 

Dr Lungu 

Col. Lungu 

Prof. Luo 

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama 

Mr Mwimba. H. Malama 

Mr Masumba 

Mr Mbewe 

Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Mbulu 

Ms Miti 

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu 

Mr Mukanga 

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga 

Mr Mumba 

Mr Mushanga 

Mr Musonda 

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale 

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale 

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba 

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya 

Mr Mwewa 

Mr Mwila 

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe 

Ms Ng’imbu 

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu 

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa 

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda 

Mr Shuma 

Mr Siamunene 

Mr Sichalwe 

Mr Sichone 

Mr Sichula 

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya 

Mr Simbao 

Dr Simbyakula 

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo 

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma 

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – (36)

Mr Antonio 

Mr Belemu 

Mr Chitafu 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu 

Mr Hamusonde 

Ms Imenda 

Dr Kalila 

Mr Kasonso 

Mr Katuka 

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya 

Ms Lubezhi 

Mr Lufuma 

Prof. Lungwangwa 

Ms Masebo 

Mrs Mazoka 

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu 

Mr Mooya

Mr Mufalali 

Mr Mulomba 

Mr Muntanga 

Dr Musokotwane 

Mr Mutati 

Mr Mutelo 

Mr Mwiimbu 

Mr Ndalamei 

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo 

Mr Pande 

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga 

Mr Sing'ombe

Abstentions (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 8(153)(154)(155)(156)(157)(158) and (159), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 8(160)(161)(162)(163)(164)(165)(166)(167)(168)(169)(170)(171)(172)(173)(174)
(175)(176) and (177) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 178 – (House of Chiefs and Functions).

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 178, on page 71, in lines 14 and 15, by the deletion of the words “a provincial assembly and.”

Sir, this amendment is consequential as it relates to the provincial assembly. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 8(178), on page 71, in lines 14 and 15, be amended, by the deletion of the words “a provincial assembly and,” put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (105)

Mrs Banda 

Mr I. Banda 

Mr N. Banda 

Mr W. Banda 

Mr Bwalya 

Mr Chabala 

Col. Chanda 

Mr Chansa 

Mr Chenda 

Mr Chikwanda 

Mr Chilangwa 

Dr Chilufya 

Mr Ching’imbu 

Mr Chisala 

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa 

Mr Chitotela 

Mrs Chungu 

Mr Chungu 

Mr Evans 

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya 

Dr Kaingu 

Mr Kalaba 

Ms Kalima 

Mr Kampyongo 

Ms Kansembe 

Ms Kapata 

Brig-Gen Kapaya

Mr Kapeya 

Mr Kapyanga 

Mr Kasandwe 

Dr Kasonde 

Mr Katambo 

Dr Katema 

Col. Kaunda 

Mrs Kawandami 

Ms Kazunga 

Mr Konga 

Mr Kosamu 

Mr Kufuna 

Mr Kunda 

Ms Limata 

Mr Lingweshi 

Mr Lubinda 

Dr Lungu 

Col. Lungu 

Prof. Luo 

Mr Mabumba 

Mr M. Malama 

Mr Mwimba. H. Malama 

Mr Masumba 

Mr Mbewe 

Mr Mbulakulima 

Mr Mbulu 

Ms Miti 

Mr Monde 

Mrs Mphande 

Mr Mpundu 

Mr Mtolo 

Mr Mubukwanu 

Mr Mukanga 

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda 

Mr Mulenga 

Mr Mumba 

Mr Mushanga 

Mr Musonda 

Mr Musukwa 

Mr Mutale 

Mr Mutati 

Mr Mvunga 

Mr Mwale 

Dr Mwali 

Mr Mwaliteta 

Mr Mwamba 

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango 

Mr Mwenya 

Mr Mwewa 

Mr Mwila 

Ms Namugala 

Mr Namulambe 

Ms Ng’imbu 

Mr P. Ngoma 

Mr Ng’onga 

Mr Njeulu 

Dr Phiri 

Mr Sampa 

Mr Sata 

Mr Shamenda 

Mr Shuma 

Mr Siamunene 

Mr Sichalwe 

Mr Sichone 

Mr Sichula 

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya 

Mr Simbao 

Dr Simbyakula 

Mr Simfukwe 

Mr Tembo

Mr Yaluma 

Mr Zimba 

Mr Zulu

Noes – (36)

Mr Antonio 

Mr Belemu 

Mr Chitafu 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 

Mr Habeenzu 

Mr Hamududu 

Mr Hamusonde 

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila 

Mr Kasonso 

Mr Katuka 

Mr Livune 

Mr Lombanya 

Ms Lubezhi 

Mr Lufuma 

Prof. Lungwangwa 

Ms Masebo 

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo 

Mr Miyanda 

Mr Miyutu 

Mr Mooya 

Mr Mufalali 

Mr Mulomba 

Mr Muntanga 

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo 

Mr Mweetwa 

Mr Mwiimbu 

Mr Ndalamei 

Mr L. J. Ngoma 

Mr Nkombo 

Mr Pande 

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha 

Mr Sianga 

Mr Sing'ombe 

Abstentions (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly. 

Clause 8(178), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8 (179)(180)(181)(182)(183)(184)(185)(186)(187)(188)(189)(190)(191)(192)(193)
(194)(195)(196)(197)(198)(199)(200)(201)(202)(203)(204)(205)(206)(207)(208)(209)and (210) ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Article 211– (Annual financial estimates of revenue and expenditure)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 211, on page 84, in lines 35 to 36, by the deletion of the words “of at least two-thirds.”

Sir, this amendment seeks to ensure the safe passage of the Budget by a simple majority.

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, it is true. It is very true. It is very, very true …

Laughter 

Ms Lubezhi:… that these people do not mean well for this country. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Which people? 

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, many times before, you have given counsel that we must, at all times, be honourable as Members of Parliament. If these people lived by your guidance, they would have behaved in a manner that is befitting of hon. Members of Parliament.

Sir, the people of Zambia spoke. They needed the Budget to be passed by a two-thirds majority. We are trying to avoid yesterday’s incidence where this Government went ahead to appropriate money which this Parliament did not approve of. When it comes to certain projects, the Government is very quick to state that there is no money. It comes out they way it does because we have not put certain measures in place. 

Mr Chairperson, when the Technical Committee went out …

Mr Muntangainterjected. 

Ms Lubezhi: Twakatala amulekebo ndambaule.

One of the things that the Technical Committee gathered from the people of Zambia was that the Budget should be passed by A two-thirds majority. You cannot come here and talk about “smooth approval” by simple majority because we are talking about national monies.  

Mr Chairperson, these people are not serious. If they were serious, they could have walked out of this House. They did not want us to debate this Motion tomorrow, but we are in tomorrow and today.  

Laughter 

Ms Lubezhi: Yesterday, we wanted this Motion deferred, but they refused. Are we not debating this Motion today, Friday? You did not want us to debate it today, but this is exactly what we are doing. Did you think that we would finish debating such an important Motion within a few hours? 

Mr Chairperson, it is a wonder how some hon. Ministers can come to this House and tell us that after all, their mothers do not know what a Constitution is. Some of us who appreciate and have mothers who know what a Constitution is have managed to be here to debate energetically till morning.  

When we were saying that we should debate on Friday morning, it was them we were trying to sympathise with, considering their energy levels. Look at the energy levels on this side of the House and the other side.

Laughter

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, a nation can only develop if the most vulnerable are catered for. Do you see any seriousness in these people who even want to pass the Budget by a simple majority? 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Ms Lubezhi: The hon. Members of Parliament that belong to the Patriotic Front (PF) should try to be serious with what they are doing and what they want to give to the people of Zambia.

Sir, in no uncertain terms, I believe that the hon. Government Members seated in the House are only here out of duty because they want to get adopted. It is not too late. They can still reverse this and redeem themselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Question!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I have been privileged to serve on the Committee on Reforms and Modernisation since 2011. That Committee deals with the electorate themselves and everywhere we went, people were asking us about the Constitution. I had the privilege of going to the Northern, Luapula and Eastern provinces and in all these provinces people were asking about the Constitution. What are these hon. Members going to tell the people of Zambia when they go back?

Mr Muntanga: They do not go to their constituencies.

Ms Lubezhi: They do not go to their constituencies. So, that is probably why they do not care.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear

Ms Lubezhi: However, speaking as a progressive woman ...

Interruptions 

The Deputy Speaker: Order!

The rules dictate that we should not debate ourselves. So, be guided accordingly.

Ms Lubezhi: I appreciate your counsel, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, speaking on behalf of progressive women ...

Hon. UPND Members: Like you.

Ms Lubezhi: ... in this country ...

Mr Masumba interjected.

Mr Livune: Masumba!

Ms Lubezhi: As I said earlier on, a good Constitution will take care of the underprivileged and I assume that we are here to serve the underprivileged in this country. It is only when the Budget reaches those people that it will make a difference in their lives. What we are seeing in this country is that the Budget never reaches the poor people of Muchila. The people do not even know what this Government is doing with the money, but we are here passing Budgets and borrowing, yet our people still remain living in abject poverty.

Sir, I was in Mufumbwe and the poverty levels there are alarming.  

Mr Masumba: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: It is the hopeofthe people in Mufumbwe that their hon. Member, who they hope will hear their cries, will vote to ensure that, at least, a two thirds majority is met when approving the Budget. That is the only way the Government will be held accountable. I will borrow the words of Hon. Masebo. I am a very sad person today because I thought a new dawn would be born for Zambia but, unfortunately, the people of Zambia are left to curse the day, 20th September, 2011, when they ushered these people into power.

Mr Chairperson, as you know, I am a seasoned debater of very few words ...

Laughter 

Ms Lubezhi: ... and even at 0510 hours in the morning, I can still plead with the hon. Government Members, energetically. As much as I know that our energy levels are different, let them sit up and listen to us. They should let this Clause go through because that is the wish of the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda(Luena):Mr Chairperson, I will try to be brief. This Clause is about accountability.

Mr Masumba interjected.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to be provoked to a point where I begin to talk about people’s certificates.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, concentrate on debating. Do not pay attention to people who are debating while seated. Remain focused.

Mr Masumba: Adoption certificate?

Ms Imenda: No, academic certificate.

Sir, for fifty-one years, we have just been passing the Budget even when there were serious issues because of the simple majority rule. However, this Constitution is attempting to make us more accountable and ensure that when we pass the Budget, the majority of hon. Members are satisfied. People out there ask us whether we do not have the power to reject a Budget and we tell them that the problem lies in the way that our Constitution is setup. We have been given this opportunity to make things right, but we are letting it pass us by for political expediency. I am very sad about this situation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, currently, the passing of the Budget is just an academic exercise. Should we not have decided to be a bit more creative and do things that will make us more accountable? We have this opportunity to do it, but we are throwing it away. 

Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier, what makes this new document that we are coming up with different from the one we are currently using because 90 per cent of the progressive proposals by the people have been rejected? What are we going to come up with? We will come up with something that is a replica of what we currently have. So, why did this Government waste so much time and money on the process when it knew that it would not give the people a new Constitution? At the end of the day, we have gone back to square one? 

Ms Lubezhi: Can you imagine!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I am very sad. This is 0515 hours and I want to put it on record that we debated the Constitution that was rejected by the Government. Just like my young brother, Hon. Mutelo, said, I am also washing my hands off this issue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: As a professional accountant, I notice that the exercise we have been having on the Budget is just a futile academic one and that saddens me very much. 

Mr Chairperson, I said I was going to be very brief. I just wanted to register my disappointment over this issue. When people look back in future and see what we have created, at least, they will know that there was a voice that spoke, a voice that wanted change. If we want to maintain the status quo, let us just hold on to the current Constitution. 

Mr Chairperson, with those words, I just wanted to register that I do not support the amendment to this clause.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha(Keembe): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate. I want to adopt the debates by the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala and that of the hon. Member for Luena as my own. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Bishop Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Sir, there is nothing that will hurt the Government by passing the Budget by a two-thirds majority. It is actually a very good article for us to pass in order to allow for accountability. There must be accountability in the way we use money. 

Sir, in this particular sitting, we had heard many members call out, “One Zambia, One Side.” To stop members from calling out that motto, it is necessary for the Budget to be passed by a two-thirds majority in order to allow for everybody to receive equitable amount of monies in their provinces.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Sir, this way, it will stop people from complaining because, then, the Government knows specifically that if it does not give money to specific areas, hon. Members responsible for those areas will come back to this House and not vote for the Budget. It will provide for greater accountability and will also give the Government integrity in that it will dispense money the way that people are supposed to receive it. 

Sir, for example, in my constituency, we started constructing a road of bituminous standard four years ago, from landless corner, 55 km towards Mumbwa. We have only worked on 24 km in four years. Every year, about 3.5 km are worked on. It has now been four years, but we have not finished working on that road, yet the money has gone in other areas where people have many roads in their constituencies. We have seen the construction of many roads in Lusaka, particularly, Kabwata. Why do we fail to share this money equitably? Many others have got … 

Mr Mukanga:Uku voter e nshi?

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Well, I can answer you in Bemba. Uku voter kwa bapanga? Pabili.E democracy.

The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning what?

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Sir, this means that there are two ways of voting. There are those that do not vote for the Government and those that vote for it. When you are in Government, you are supposed to deal with everybody else.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Sir, it is not necessarily dealing with your constituencies. It is necessary for this to be allowed because it will go a long way in helping the Government to be understood. People will know that the Government does not want to abuse money, but share it equally amongst every Zambian. This is important and I thought it should be accepted by everybody else here rather than letting it be amended for the purpose of amending. 

Mr Chairperson, it is necessary that the two-thirds majority is allowed when passing the Budget. We have sat here to discuss the Budget. A Budget that we are going to pass, whose consideration will end today with the Appropriation Bill, is one in which some of the monies will not be released. People will not receive what is written in the Yellow Book. However, if we said that it must be passed by a two-thirds majority, then, the Government would be able to give that money that is due to the people. 

Mr Chairperson, I believe I cannot stand and support the hon. Minister’s amendment because I know that money has not been distributed very well in the Budget. So, the two-thirds majority is important.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this provision has been in place for the last fifty-one years. Budgets have been passed in this House and the country has fared well. There is no mischief that we are to cure. It worked well under the United National Independence Party (UNIP), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and now. Today, I do not see what the fears are. 

Mr Chairperson, let me thank all those who have debated for and against.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members/Hon. UPND Members called for a division. 

Question that Clause 8 (211) on page 84, in lines 35 to 36, by the deletion of the words “of the least two-thirds”, put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (105)

Mrs. E. Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chingimbu

Mr Chisala

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chungu

Mrs Chungu

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr E. Lungu

Col. J. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr Malama

Mr Mwimba H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes– (37)

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu

Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutati

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Ndalamei

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Pande

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions– (0)

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 8(211), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8(212)(213)(214)(215)(216)(217)(218)(219)(220)(221)(222)(223)(224)(225) and (226) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 226 – (Parliamentary Service)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Article 226, on page 89, as follows:

(a)    in lines 31 and 32
 by the deletion of the words “provincial clerk,”; and 

(b)    in line 33
 by the deletion of the words “and provincial clerk.” 

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this article is consequential as it is making reference to the Provincial Clerk, which the House has already dealt with.

 I thank you, Sir.

 Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I must state that I stand to oppose the proposed amendment to the article in furtherance to what the people of Zambia have recommended.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, during this important discussion, this is the first time that I have stood to debate this subject. I would like to begin my submission by stating that the Constitution is a grand nom and the fundamental law of a country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, the people of Zambia have spoken and as I stand here in the early hours of morning, I must state that I am a very disappointed Member of Parliament …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: … to belong to an Assembly, which the people of this country look forward to delivering, but one which cannot deliver what the people expect.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I have been sitting here and listening, the whole night, …

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: … to submissions from various hon. Members of Parliament. I must state that, at a personal level, I regret being a part of this Assembly.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, this reminds me of a question in Constitutional Law, which my former lecturer, Prof. Alfred Chanda, always asked: “Why has Zambia failed to deliver itself a Constitution that is people-driven and can stand the test of time?” The answer is here. Zambia has failed to deliver a Constitution that can stand the test of time because when the opportunity comes, as it has come at this particular moment, there is conspiracy and collusion between the Executive and the management of Parliament …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: … to muzzle the will of the people …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: … through the way business of yesterday and today has been conducted.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you elaborate your point because I am following what Prof. Chanda taught you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: However, I am failing to understand your point.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I am very disappointed because what is currently happening in this House is not what the people of Zambia expected.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: This actually verifies what the people had feared. This Assembly was not the right place to adopt and enact the Constitution. 

Sir, I may come up with valid or non-valid points, but at the end of the day, we have to vote. I want to put it on record that I am extremely disappointed because this Assembly, which the people looks up to, has been reduced into a political circus.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Yes!

Hon. Kambwili:Uyu mwaice wamiponto.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, they have turned the Constitution, which is a national document, into a Patriotic Front (PF) and Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) document.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Yes.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I am disappointed and frankly speaking, we can come up with valid arguments, but with the calibre of arguments that I have heard this far, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not tempt me because I have the powers to send you out. Thou shall not push me too far. The hon. Member debating, please, bear in mind that this is an honourable House.

Hon. Government Members: He is drunk.

The Deputy Chairperson: As much as the subject may be emotive, please, be sober in your debate and let us have respect for one another. Passing judgement is allowed, but if it is not justified, I may be forced to stop you from continuing. However, since we are debating the Constitution, I will allow you to continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Long live the Chair!

Lights dimmed in the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, we are now in the dark and in other countries, we would have been whisked away for safety.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Your safety is guaranteed. In fact, this is the safest place to be.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I am seriously disappointed because this is a once in a lifetime moment where an Member of Parliament has the privilege to debate constitutional amendments. However, what we have seen in the last few days has been a conspiracy between the Executive and management of Parliament …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, can you take your seat.

Interruptions

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Lubinda): Sir, I thank you for allowing me to say a few words about this very important document and I am cognisant of the fact that we would like to dispense this work as expeditiously as we can. However, it would be amiss if I do not attempt to correct the record and some impressions that have been created for the sake of posterity.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, it is a known fact by many who entertain alcohol that the most distasteful thing to do after you have taken alcohol is to debate with those whom you know were not with you when you were getting drunk.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Shame.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, secondly, it is a known fact that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … after some people have taken alcohol, they lose their sense of judgement …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … and decorum. Most of us have been in this House the whole night because of the duty bestowed upon us by the citizens, but others spent the whole night …

Hon. Government Members: At the bar!

Mr Lubinda: … emptying bottles of klipdraft just to come here to demean all of us, …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … including Presiding Officers and innocent officers of the National Assembly of Zambia.

Sir, I would also like to correct the impression that has been created that some hon. Members of this House do not represent people. The whole night, we have been entertained to repetitive arguments about what the people have said as though the rest of us are not representatives of the people. We have had several votes and the results have spoken for themselves.

Mr Chairperson, assuming the population of Zambia is 15 million, proportionately, every constituency would have had 100,000 constituents. Going by the results of the votes, this would mean that 107 Members of Parliament would be representing 10.7 million people. These have been voting in favour of the passage of the clauses in the Constitution ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … against thirty-two Members who proportionately would only represent 3.2 million people. Which group would claim to be representing the people?

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: In addition, this House unanimously passed the National Assembly Bill No. 16 and the passage of that Bill was to allow all of us, the 150 Members gathered in this House, to delve into the Draft Constitution. Had we not wanted to do that, we would not have passed the National Assembly Bill, No. 16.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The fact that we collectively passed the Bill means that the current Constitution empowers us to look at the Draft Constitution and to pass it in the manner that we have done. Therefore, let no one try to create an impression that we have engaged in any illegality because we have not.

However, let it also be known that among us, there those who have the tendency of taking part in processes and abandoning them when it matters the most. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It has happened before, but thanks to the people in this House that their attempt this time has fallen shot. 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The will of the Members of Parliament gathered in this House is representative of the will of the people who we represent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Therefore, let it be known that all of us gathered in this House have people we represent who elected us to come to this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Lubinda: Had it been that the people out there did not want the passage of this Constitution, we would not have been garnering the votes that we have.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Lubinda: Therefore, all of us have passed the Constitution Bill and in a few moments, we should pass the Bill No. 17.

Sir, let me end by saying that according to the Standing Orders of this House, no one can state that they did not partake of this process. It is our process together.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, there are those hon. Members who have always made it a habit of walking out, but this time they realised it was not expedient and they stayed throughout the night.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: To them too, like Hon. Siliya has said, well done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We are in it together for the sake of the people out there and posterity.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all the Members who have debated effectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 8, Article 226, on page 89, be amended (a) in lines 31 and 32 by the deletion of the words “provincial clerk,”; and (b) in line 33 by the deletion of the words “and provincial clerk”, put and the House voted.

Ayes: (107)

Mrs E. M. Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Ching’imbu

Mr Chipungu

Mr Chisala

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chungu

Mrs Chungu

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr E. Lungu

Col. J. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama

Mr Mwimba. H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Dr T. N. Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Prof. Willombe

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Dr Chituwo

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu

Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutati

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr Pande

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amendedaccordingly.

Clause 8(226), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Article 227, on page 90, in lines 4 and 5, by the deletion of the words “and provincial clerks”; in lines 10 and 12 by the deletion of the words “and provincial assemblies”; and in line 11 by the deletion of the comma and insertion after the word “Service” of the word “and”.

Hon. Government Members: Look at the way he is walking.

Hon. Nkomboentered the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Kambwili:Nakakolwa ako akamwaice.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is his style of moving.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili:Iwe, Garry! 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this amendment is consequential as it makes reference to provincial assemblies, which the House has already dealt with.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili:Ala, abo nabo bati bapone. Ninshi munwine imwe?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mutelo(Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, throughout the night, I have just been seated. Soon it will be 06 00hours. We had asked that business be suspended so we could come and deliberate the following day.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, let us be serious in the manner we debate. There have been too many repetitions and jokes. Let us be serious. Time is precious. The people out there pay for what we are doing here. So, for once, let us be serious. 

You may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, indeed, the people out there pay for what we are doing here.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you are going to modify my ruling, you will invite me to take necessary steps. 

You may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry. Now, I know what the Patriotic Front (PF) meant when it said the Constitution is just a paper. The PF said that it would rather give people food and not a paper. Today, it is saying that it is giving people the Constitution. I do not agree with that because this is the same document that the PF referred to as a paper. My memory is aware of that fact. This document, which the PF referred to as a paper is the same paper that we have been deliberating on throughout the night. Why have we amended it?

Sir, allow me to borrow one word from Her Honour the Vice-President, which I will interpret, ‘Kupesula’. Lupesuzi ona pepa ye ni Constitution ya batu. This means that the people-driven Constitution has been diluted. Kona kupesula. Cwale ze zelu ezize, ki sipesu. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning what?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, this means that this is not the original thing. We have diluted the original document. With one or more amendments, we will end up ni sipesu. The people out there will know that this Constitution, which to the PF is just a paper, has been diluted.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, as we go towards finalising debating the Constitution, I still stand by my word and that is to back what the people demanded we should stand for. We are representatives and messengers of the people. As a messenger, if you are sent to deliver a letter and then midway you decide to do your own things like ...

Hon. UPND Member: Opening the letter.

Mr Mutelo: ... opening it and amending it and then telling people when you get to your destination that that is what the people sent you to deliver ...

Hon. UPND Member: That is forgery.

Mr Mutelo: …is totally unacceptable. You must get that sealed letter and deliver it as it is. Similarly, somewhere in the night, the PPF, and not the Opposition, opened the letter and put in its own words. By the time this document reaches the people, it would have been amended. The PF would have achieved its desire of amending this document with words, as circulated. How I wish the PF had come up with another technical committee which would have taken the Draft Constitution back to the people stating what exactly needed to be amended, as opposed to making piece meal amendments. The people know that it is not the entire Draft Constitution that has been amended, but the piece meal amendments. So, what will reach the final destination will not be the wishes of those we represent. No wonder some people have been arguing against having a Cabinet outside Parliament. This process is half baked.

Sir, with those few words, and in the name of sipesu, I am not going to be part of that sipesu.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili:Mwaliba ifishishi mumutwe umu. Mwaliba ifidoyo.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I want to thank you for giving me an opportunity to say one or two words on the Constitution. Firstly, I would like to go by Hon. Kampyongo’s debate. That debate shows that as leaders, we contradict each other a lot.

Sir, as leaders, what we think, say and do must go together. However, I have noticed that certain leaders will say one thing and do the complete opposite of it. That is being hypocritical. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, we are dealing with a very special document, which we started deliberating yesterday and the time now is past 0600 hours. Surely, is it acceptable for someone to come here and say that they took two shots of whiskey? I have heard from certain quarters since we came here, ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us confine ourselves to the issue. Let us desist from debating each other.

Mr Nkombointerjected.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There shall be order in the House, please.

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, I have heard a lot of self-contradiction today. I believe that the lowest form of intelligence is self-contradiction. People who say one thing today and another tomorrow on the same matter cannot go anywhere. Therefore, self-contradiction is counterproductive.

Mr Chairperson, some people talked about certain provinces being favoured in terms of development. Various statements were made on the Eastern, Northern and Southern provinces. However, I want to make it clear that we, from the Eastern Province, are not interested in tribalism. We will never be tribal.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, for the record, people from the Eastern Province do not believe in tribalism and what …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left!

There is only one Chairperson in here and I am the one, at least, for now. Let us concentrate on the amendment moved by the hon. Minister of Justice. We have come a long way and I think it is better we remain focused so that we finish the task before us. Bear that guidance in mind, hon. Minister. 

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to correct the situation whereby …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

You have already made your point. Debate the amendment, please.

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, I support the amendment we are making. Thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. That is a very good example of being brief.

Interruptions

The Minister of Gender (Prof. Luo): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor. The time is 0607 hours in the morning and those Zambians who are interested in the future of this country have probably also stayed up to this time to listen to the deliberations in this House. What is most important is the fact that those who are analytical in their minds have been analysing the quality of debate that has been going on in this House pertaining to the Constitution. They have been able to tell who is playing to the gallery and who really wants to see a prosperous future for Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, a constitution is not static, but a moving document. The hon. Minister of Justice has been very explicit in moving amendments. He has said why we should shelve certain provisions and amend others. He was actually setting the tone for hon. Members of Parliament to see the reason we should agree with certain amendments.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to unpack the word ‘people’. Some hon. Members of Parliament, here in this House, kept saying we need a people-driven Constitution. Therefore, I was wondering whether all the 158 hon. Members in here are animals because we are also people. Most importantly, we are the people that have been given the mandate to represent the different constituencies in this country. Therefore, as Prof. Nkandu Luo, I represent all the constituents of Munali Parliamentary Constituency. As hon. Members of Parliament, we have the responsibility of going to consult the people who sent us to this House before coming to discuss issues such the Constitution of Zambia.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice circulated the amendments long before we started sitting yesterday. It was imperative for us to go back to our constituencies and ask the position of our constituents on the matter. However, some of us have come here to represent interests of people who are not even part of our constituencies. Some of the people who were sitting in the public galleries up there probably do not even have constituencies where they come from in this country. They have their own personal interests.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, secondly, I want to state that as Zambians, we should stop being copyrights. We should learn lessons from those who have tried certain things before us. We are hearing of problems that other countries are going through because of certain decisions made by leaders. However, we want to take a copy-and-paste approach to legislate certain things in Zambia. It is not possible. 

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, even the democracy we have in this country is being abused. Yesterday morning, there was an interesting discussion on one of the radio stations about the quality of journalism in Zambia. All the people that contributed to this programme said that the quality of journalism in this country has gone down. We cannot even compare it to the days of Mr Charles Mando. We have turned radio stations into platforms to debate or talk about other people. 

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of this House are leaders who are held in high esteem by the people who sent us to represent them. Therefore, they do not expect us to come to this House, sit until the next morning only to tell them that we have been taking two shots of whiskey. If that is what we are doing, why should our work be protracted until the next day? I want my dear colleagues to know that such conduct is unacceptable.

Mr Chairperson, well-meaning Zambians, who have no personal interests, will send us accolades for what we have done today with regard to the Constitution. As leaders, we are expected to walk the talk and stand tall. Therefore, we should not have one position when we are sitting in a Committee and then change it on the same matter when we are in here just because we are live on radio. That is unacceptable and that is why I am saying that those Zambians out there who are analytical …

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: … have heard the names of those who stood in this House …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

As the Chairperson, I know what we are debating. So, allow me to control the proceedings because I have not delegated to anybody on my left hand side. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: However, the hon. Minister of Justice has moved an amendment. I have listened to your preamble, Hon. Minister of Gender, and it is about time that you now zeroed in on the amendment.

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I support the last amendment moved by the hon. Minister of Justice. I think it is important for us to analyse what Zambia is about. Some of the problems we are facing in this country are as a result of importing things that we are not yet ready to implement.

Mr Chairperson, we, in this House, do not need …

Mr Lubinda: Provincial assemblies.

Prof Luo: … provincial assemblies. We, in this House, …

Mr Lubinda: Provincial Clerks.

Prof. Luo: … do not need provincial plans.

Mr Lubinda: Clerks.

Prof. Luo: Provincial Clerks, Sorry.

We do not need to …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Prof. Luo: Please, stop disturbing my discussion.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Prof Luo: You are not chairs.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I want to confirm that we do not need …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on the left, please!

Prof. Luo: We, in this House, are saying that we are not going to support provincial assemblies.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: For me, the issue is not even the cost. The issue is that we do not even have any infrastructure to support them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: As a people, we must make sure that we  are prepared for whatever we are doing. We should have planned for these provincial assemblies because it is very important to plan whatever you want to do. So, for those of you who moved Motions to have them because we can do it, you cannot do that without planning. This is why we have not progressed, as a nation, in the last fifty-one years because we never used to plan for what we wanted to do. We are not going to move along with all the unplanned things that are in this Draft Constitution until we have planned for them.

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister of Justice said, we will shelve these proposals, think through them, look at the implementation plan and see if we able to implement. We will consider them. As I said, a Constitution is not a static document, but a moving one.

Mr Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: We can go back to it later on when we are ready. When we have a Parliament that can accommodate 200 plus people, then, we can move along with it. If we bring in the so many people that we want to, where are they going to sit? As it is, we are very crowded in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, please, may I be protected because the problem with your left is …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Prof. Luo: … that when they are talking, they want to talk until hallelujah.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: When we start hitting back, then, they become jittery.

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Please, protect me.

Mr Chairperson, I want to say that everything you do in your life even at home front, you must plan for it. Some of the provisions in this Constitution, I can go through all of them; have not been planned for. Even if they were submitted by the people, we did not plan for them. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 0618 hours until 0639 hours

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate.

One Zambia!

Hon. UPND Members: One nation!

Mr Lufuma: Good.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to contribute to this very important debate today. This debate is not a contest between the Patriotic Front (PF) and the Opposition.

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: This contest is between the PF ...

Mr Sing’ombe: And the people.

Mr Lufuma: ... and the people. We, as the United Party for National Development (UPND), ...

Mr Nkombo: Put this document together.

Mr Lufuma: ... did not put this document together. Thank you very much. It was the people who put this document together.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hanjika mwata!

Mr Lufuma: What we are missing is that when the people wanted a new Constitution, the Government facilitated this by appointing commissions. The commissions went around and collected the views of the people on what they wanted to be contained in the Constitution and this is the document.

Mr Mutelo: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: It is called the Mung’omba Constitutional Review Commission.

Mr Milambo: Hmm!

Mr Lufuma: These were the submissions by the people. When we say, “voice populi, voice dei,” it is true. The voice of the people is the voice of God. It is true that the people submitted to have this document put up and everybody that submitted is here (Pointing at the commission report).

Mr Kalaba: What is he talking about? We are not talking about the commission’s report.

Mr Lufuma: Just hold on. Take it easy, I am coming to that.

Everyone who submitted to the commission is here in the report. From all the submissions, we come to what we discussing now, the Draft Constitution. What is in the Draft Constitution is what people submitted. What moral right does the PF have to change what the people wanted or submitted?

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Tell me, as PF, what moral right you have. You do not have any right whatsoever to change the Constitution. If you what to change the Constitution, go back to the people who are documented in the commission’s report and tell them that, “We would like to change, mutilate or adulterate this Constitution.” Once they allow you, please, by all means, the UPND will not stand in your way.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), being your whatever, will not stand in your way.

Mr Mutale: Question!

Mr Lufuma: We shall agree and enact a Constitution with the amendments that you so wish.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, ...

Mr Mutelo: Amalya!

Mr Lufuma: Amevavu.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: ... all of us, and especially the PF, know the platform which brought the PF into Government. The fundamental platform was its promise to enact a Constitution within ninety days. The PF excited the people by this. The people saw the PF as a messiah. One who would deliver what others had not delivered, yet our hopes were crushed as soon as the PF came into office. No sooner had the late President occupied office, if you recall at one of the occasions he had to speak to the people, than he changed his mind by saying, “You want a people-driven Constitution,” I even heard it from Prof. Luo today, ...

Mr Sing’ombe: Show me the animal Constitution.

Mr Lufuma: ... “show me the animal Constitution.” 

Mr Mutelo: This is the one.

Mr Lufuma: That was the beginning of the end. I knew in my heart that this Constitution was going nowhere. We are spending money and wasting people’s time for nothing. Later on, the same late President said, “Constitution, Constitution! Who eats a Constitution? Will you eat the Constitution?” 

The Constitution may not be edible in the real sense, but it is the anchor of how we govern. How we govern determines how we manage our economic affairs. How we manage our economic affairs determines the growth that is induced in the economy and, therefore, the reduction of poverty.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Poverty reduction eventually translates into food on the table. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: That is how you eat. So, contrary to Mr Sata’s assertions that we do not eat the Constitution, I say that we eat it.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member:Ninshi ba tata bakuchita?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I have always wondered whether, indeed, the PF ever had a heart to go through with this process.

Hon. UPND Members: It never had.

Mr Lufuma: It never had the heart and has demonstrated, through this process, that it did not have the heart to enact this Constitution. I have been listening the whole night. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on the right!

Mr Lufuma: It never had the heart at all.

Mr Chairperson, we know that the PF was only politicking and paying lip service. That is all it was doing. It just wanted the votes. It did not ever have a heart to enact this Constitution, but wanted the vote in order for it to be in power. Now that the PF is in power, it is turning around and laughing at the people who put it there. This is unacceptable. 

Mr Chairperson, the tragedy of African governments is that they play on people’s minds. They pretend to enact constitutions that purport to support the majority of the people. On the contrary, they enact laws that only support the ruling elite, the ruling party. For example, under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), a certain law was changed. The theft of a motor vehicle was once a bailable offence. However, when it suited the ruling elite at that time, it was changed to an unbailable offence to fix one person. The MMD wanted to settle scores.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Lufuma: You must read! Do not just say “aah, aah!”

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lufuma: You should read.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: These are the things.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 Please, let us allow the hon. Member to debate in peace and quiet.

Mr Lufuma: So, when the architect of this changed law fell out of favour, the incoming Government accused him of having stolen a Government vehicle and was put behind bars. You know who this architect was. 

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: He tried to argue that the offence was bailable, but was told that the law had changed. He was told that since he was the one who had changed it two weeks before, he had to be behind bars. He was put behind bars.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: When we enact laws, we should ensure that they stand the test of time. Let us not design them to suit us and our circumstances, but with the future in mind. 

Mr Chairperson, for example, the argument on provincial assemblies is that it is expensive. Who said that democracy is cheap? It is expensive and we should not look at the expense, but the principle of what we are introducing, which is democracy, self-governance, determination and participation. This is what we want. If we have these things, they become an investment into the future governance of this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: In fact, for us in the North-Western Province, it is transitory. We do not even want provincial assemblies, but the federal system of Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: It is what we wanted except it did not go through. We knew that it is the federal system of Governance that will cure some of the issues that we are talking about such as the one Zambia, one side. You guys are after one Zambia, one side. We want to self-determine.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can you withdraw the term “guys.” There are no guys in the House.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the term ‘guys’.

Hon. UPND Member: They are here. The PF guys.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: The essence is that we were going to have less of issues like the Barotseland Agreement.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Barotseland does not want to secede. There is a mistaken notion that the Lozis want to secede Barotseland from the rest of the country. They do not want to. 

Hon. Opposition Member: That was yesterday!

Mr Lufuma: They want to govern themselves. They want self-determination. They want to plan for themselves and prioritise their development. Once this is given to them, it will be exactly what every region wants. You will reduce on complaints from various regions. It is important that we give the people what they want. What are you afraid of? Give the people what they want and what they want is a Constitution that is not amended by a few people that are sitting here in Parliament called the PF.

Mr Mutelo: PF thugs.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: This is what the people want.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to conclude by urging the PF Government to withdraw all these amendments.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: If it does not withdraw these amendments, which are going against the wishes and the aspirations of the people, 2016 is coming.

Hon. Government Members: So, what?

Mr Lufuma: The PF will lose.

Mr Mwamba: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: When it loses and we come into power, we shall change and give the people what they want.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: So, temporarily, the PF thinks that it has won, but the people will always win. They will win and their facilitators are none other than the United Party for National Development (UPND) and Mr Hakainde Hichilema (HH).

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I would like to express my profound gratitude to all those who have debated and thank the House for the support.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question that Clause 8, Article 227, on page 90, be amended, (a) in lines 4 and 5, by the deletion of the words “and provincial clerks”; (b) in lines 10 and 12, by the deletion of the words “and provincial assemblies”; and (c) in line 11, by the deletion of the comma and insertion after the word “Service” of the word “and”, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (108)

Mrs Banda 

Mr N. Banda 

Mr I. Banda 

Mr W. Banda 

Mr Bwalya 

Mr Chabala 

Col. Chanda 

Mr Chansa 

Mr Chenda 

Mr Chikwanda 

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya 

Mr Ching’imbu 

Mr Chipungu 

Mr Chisala 

Mr Chishimba 

Mr Chisopa 

Mr Chitotela 

Mrs Chungu 

Mr Chungu 

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi 

Mr Kafwaya 

Dr Kaingu 

Mr Kalaba 

Ms Kalima 

Mr Kambwili 

Mr Kampyongo 

Ms Kansembe 

Ms Kapata 

Brig-Gen Kapaya 

Mr Kapeya 

Mr Kapyanga 

Mr Kasandwe 

Dr Kasonde 

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema 

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami 

Ms Kazunga 

Mr Konga 

Mr Kosamu 

Mr Kufuna 

Mr Kunda 

Ms Limata 

Mr Lingweshi 

Mr Lubinda 

Dr Lungu 

Col. Lungu 

Prof. Luo 

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama 

Mr Mwimba. H. Malama 

Mr Masumba 

Mr Mbewe 

Mr Mbulakulima 

Mr Mbulu 

Ms Miti 

Mr Monde 

Mrs Mphande 

Mr Mpundu 

Mr Mtolo 

Mr Mubukwanu 

Mr Mukanga 

Mr Mukata 

Ms Mulasikwanda 

Mr Mulenga 

Mr Mumba 

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda 

Mr Musukwa 

Mr Mutale 

Mr Mvunga 

Mr Mwale 

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta 

Mr Mwamba 

Mrs Mwanakatwe 

Mr Mwango 

Mr Mwenya 

Mr Mwewa 

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala 

Mr Namulambe 

Ms Ng’imbu 

Mr P. Ngoma 

Mr Ng’onga 

Mr Njeulu 

Mr Phiri 

Dr Phiri 

Mr Sampa 

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma 

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe 

Mr Sichone 

Mr Sichula 

Mr Sikazwe 

Ms Siliya 

Mr Simbao 

Dr Simbyakula 

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo 

Prof. Willombe 

Mr Yaluma 

Mr Zimba 

Mr Zulu 

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio 

Mr Belemu 

Mr Chitafu 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 

Mr Habeenzu 

Mr Hamududu 

Mr Hamusonde 

Ms Imenda 

Dr Kalila 

Mr Kasonso 

Mr Katuka 

Mr Livune 

Mr Lombanya 

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma 

Prof. Lungwangwa 

Mrs Mazoka 

Mr Milambo 

Mr Miyanda 

Mr Miyutu 

Mr Mooya 

Mr Mufalali 

Mr Mulomba 

Mr Muntanga 

Dr Musokotwane 

Mr Mutati 

Mr Mutelo 

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu 

Mr Ndalamei 

Mr L. J. Ngoma 

Mr Nkombo 

Mr Pande 

Ms Sayifwanda 

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha 

Mr Sianga 

Mr Sing'ombe 

Abstentions (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly. 

Clause 8(227), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8(228)(229)(230)(231)(232)(233)(234)(235)(236)(237)(238)(239)(240)(241)(242)(243)
(244)(245)(246)(247)(248)(249)(250)(251)(252)(253)(254)(255)(256)(257)(258)(259)(260)
(261) and (262) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Article 263 – (Vesting of land)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 263, on page 101, in lines 1 to 4 by the deletion of Article 263.

Sir, in view of the concerns that have been raised by our traditional leaders, we have taken this course of action to enable us to engage them, with a view to finding an amicable solution. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly. 

Clause 8 (263), as amended, is ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 8(264)(265)(266)(267)(268)(269)(270)(271)(272)(273)(274)and(275) ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Article 276 – (Definitions)

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, in Article 276:

(a)    on page 104, in lines 32 and 33
by the deletion of the words “who holds a constituency-based-seat”;

(b)    on page 106

(i)    in lines 1 and 2
    by the deletion of the definition of “deputy provincial speaker”; and

(ii)    in line 24
    by the deletion of the comma and the words “provincial assembly”;

(a)    on page 108

(i)    in lines 8 and 9
    by the deletion of the definition of “local Bill”; and

(ii)    in lines 36 to 38
    by the deletion of the definition of “party list”; 

(b)    on page 109, in lines 32 and 33
    by the deletion of the definition of “provincial legislation”;

(c)    on page 110

(i)    in lines 1 to 3
    by the deletion of the “provincial speaker”; and 

(ii)    in lines 16 to 20
    by the deletion of the definition of “State office” and the substitution therefor of the following:

    ““State office” includes the office of the President, Vice-President, Speaker, deputy Speaker, Member of Parliament, Minister and provincial Minister”.

Sir, this provision is the definitions Article. It is merely consequential, as it is cleaning up in reference to proportional representation and provincial assemblies. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma(Sinda): Mr Chairperson, this Article is about definitions which, in my view, take into account issues from page 1 to the last page of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill that we are dealing with today. 

Sir, allow me to place on record that this day, 11th December, 2015, is a very sad day in the history of this country. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Allow me, Sir, to indicate that we have lost an opportunity, as a country, to correct past mistakes through the enactment of a people-driven Constitution. What has obtained, today, is a serious assault on constitutionalism. Instead of this House doing justice, it has done the complete opposite. 

Mr Chairperson, Parliament is supposed to provide oversight, legislate, like we are doing today, and be representative. As far as oversight is concerned, we have by-passed this issue. However, since it is also part of the definitions that we are talking about, I am very saddened that issues that should have attracted support from both the Ruling and Opposition parties did not. Our mannerism is as though this document is for the PF alone. 

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I know that we are not supposed to debate ourselves. However, if there is one person I truly respect in the Front Bench is Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning. Looking at her, however, I can see that she is quite distressed. 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May we desist from debating ourselves. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Thank you, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: We are dealing with definitions and the proposed amendments are deletion of who holds a constituency seat, deputy provincial speaker, local Bill and the definition of state office. These are the amendments. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Yes Sir, I have seen all of them. 

The Deputy Chairperson: I know that you have seen them, but you are spending so much time on your preamble. Debate the subject. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your wise counsel. Like I indicated, all these definitions are there from page 1 to the last page. I have picked issues that I am concerned about. The behaviour of the PF is as though it will be in the Government forever. Some of the things which have been decided today, especially by the PF, will haunt it in a few months to come. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: The PF will regret that it made such decisions. One such important issue is over the approval of the National Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice indicated that it has been simple majority for close to fifty-years, but we are here to cure that anomaly. That is a very serious issue. When the current Government will be in the Opposition very soon, it will require that the approval of the Budget is by two thirds.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: I am very distressed and when I leave this Chamber, I will tell the Zambian people that the PF duped them by telling them it would grant them a people-driven Constitution when that is not what it has brought to the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Copperbelt Province (Mr Mwenya): Mr Chairperson, without wasting my time, I want to state that today is a very special day because the much awaited Constitution is now being delivered by the Patriotic Front (PF).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: I want to take this opportunity to commend his Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, for standing by his word that this Constitution would become a reality.
,
Sir, we have heard a lot from our colleagues and have seen how they have attempted to change goal posts. They attended the Constitution Conference (NCC), prepared these documents and thought they could make numbers by bringing people in through the back door, but that has failed. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, when we begun yesterday, we saw two political failures who came to try to support the Opposition thinking they could make mileage. These two were Mr Hakainde Hichilema (HH) and Mr Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba (GBM), ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwenya: ... but that has not changed anything at all.

Mr Mwaliteta: Bwekashapoapo!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The rules of the game here are very clear. We do not debate people who are not here for the simple reason that they will not be in a position to defend themselves. Can you veer off that line of debate and debate the amendments that are yearning for attention.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, we are talking about definitions here. One thing I would have loved to see is ...

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwenya: The issue I wanted to talk about was part and parcel of the provincial assemblies, but that has been deleted. 

Sir, I would have liked the youth in this country to be considered by looking at the age limit which has not been considered, although we have said that eighteen is okay.

Sir, for many years,previous administrations have come and gone in an attempt to deliver a people-driven Constitution, but have all failed. Today, I am a happy person because the PF Government is about to deliver one. This is a very big achievement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Sir, our colleagues attended the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and pocketed money.

Mr Mwiimbu: Are you sure?

Mr Mwenya: Today, we are just going through the document they came up with to try to cleanse it and make a proper Constitution that is going to stand the test of time. I would like to commend my fellow hon. Members who have pulled through from the time we started yesterday afternoon for a job well done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: It is time that this Constitution is released to our people so that it sees the light of day.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa(Nalikwanda):Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to express some concluding remarks on the last part of this process that has taken the whole night. We are now in the new day.

Sir, Africa’s biggest tragedy is the lack of respect for each other, as leaders, and the lack of respect for the people that put us in these positions of responsibility. Clearly, the statement by Her Honour the Vice-President yesterday when the proposal for suspension of the Standing Order was moved was very instructive. She said that we should respect each other as we move towards 2016 and ensure that the 2016 elections are peaceful. The underlining issue there is respect for each other.

Mr Chairperson, since 2011, there has been a culture, among leaders, of outdoing and obliterating each other. Consequently, even the led have followed this culture. What has been demonstrated from yesterday up to this morning is the culture of a lack of respect for the will of the people.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: The biggest tragedy in the constitutional-making process in our country, in particular, has been the tragedy of amendments which has been the opposing condition in as far as the will of the people is concerned. This has run through our Constitutional-making process since independence. This has been very evident in what has been proposed throughout the night. These amendments that the Patriotic Front (PF) has brought have been, to a large extent, an expression of a lack of respect for the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, the people of Zambia have clearly expressed what their wishes are in as far as how they would like to govern themselves and not how they should be governed.
The people of Zambia, carefully selected the fundamental principles, concepts, and values upon which they would like to govern themselves. What has happened throughout the night has been a process of deletion of those very principles, concepts and beliefs. Of course, in this particular article, we are seeing deletion. It is not only in this last article, but throughout the amendment process. It has been a process of deleting what the Zambians want. This clearly shows that the process of deletion has been the process of erasing that which the Zambian people would like to see for themselves. 

Mr Chairperson, it is extremely unfortunate that our colleagues who were put in positions of responsibility and leadership have turned against their own people through the process of deleting that which the people of Zambia want. This is the tragedy of Zambia and Africa, as a whole. Clearly, this process, which is coming to a conclusion very soon, is not a process of success because it is not what the people of Zambia want. In all honesty, the people of Zambia will express their displeasure and disgust at what has taken place in this august House. This will not take long.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure it will soon be evident when we conclude this process because the underlining justification of obliteration of the people’s will has, to a large extent, been based on a lack of resources to do that which the people want. The people of Zambia have curved for themselves the certain fundamental principles that should underline the way they should govern themselves, not today, but for generations to come. This is what the Patriotic Front (PF) leadership has erased through the process of deletion. Indeed, as other colleagues have pointed out, today, Zambia will be covered with the darkest cloud.

Interruptions

Prof. Lungwangwa: Today is the day when the hopes for the Zambians for a better Constitution, arising out of their own thinking, have been shattered by our colleagues in the PF Government. They used the ladder of the will, hopes and aspirations of the people and now, have discarded that ladder. I do not think that the Zambian people will take kindly to this process of deletion of that which they want, the very concepts, values and beliefs that they took so long a time to think about and to express clearly. Yes, the PF has successfully done it and this is the ghost in the mind that has come out today. We can see it very clearly. This ghost, of course, is that which the PF leadership wants and not what the Zambians want. 

Sir, what has happened throughout the night has been a process of legitimising that which the PF leadership want and not that which the Zambians want. This is extremely most unfortunate that, as a team of leaders, we can go that way to delete from the minds of our people that which they want. History will judge the PF Government harshly. It is most unfortunate because our colleagues are in a privileged position of leadership, of guiding this nation and of ensuring that which the people want is achieved. Most unfortunately, because of the arrogance of numbers and manipulation of certain systems, they have, of course, had their way in obliterating what the people want. 

Mr Chairperson, a Constitution is a document of socialisation for leadership. It is a document that is supposed to unite all of us, irrespective of the political divide that might be there. Within this document are the fundamental values and principles of our people. This is the way that our people would like to govern themselves. It is a document that should enable each and every one of us to rise above our differences and look at our nation, as Zambia, for the good of all of us. This is a document which is an expression of the best way in which our people would wish to govern themselves. Clearly, this is not what the PF leadership has done from yesterday to this morning. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish this Government had listened to the expression of defending and protecting the will of the people. Had it listened, it could have agreed to go back and reflect. It would have withdrawn all these amendments because it has the power. The PF should have thought of shelving all this in order to respect the will of the people. Of course, what has been expressed is the tragedy of Africa and Zambia, in particular, namely, the lack of respect for the will of the people. The people will be the best judges. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I want to express my profound gratitude to all hon. Members of this august House for actively participating in this process of Constitution building which is a milestone in the life of our nation. Yes, the document may not be perfect, but as I said earlier, Constitution Review Commissions have come and gone over the years, yet the Constitution has continued to elude us. At least, today, with the active participation of all hon. Members, a significant step has been made. Certain critical provisions which go to the route with the governance system have been agreed to by this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, the majoritarian system of electing our President, which will give credit and legitimacy to the President, has been passed by this House. The running mate, which we have passed in order to cure the defect of the Presidential by-election, has been agreed to. Zambia has been unfortunate that in the last seven years, we have lost two of Heads of State and we have learnt a bitter lesson. However, today, we have taken the bull by the horn and passed that amendment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, many Zambians are living in the Diaspora and have been denied their birth right. Today, our compatriots can walk with their heads high wherever they are because they are Zambians again. We would, therefore, like to call upon the relevant institutions to begin the process of facilitating their full rights as Zambians. Let us join other nations who make it possible for their nationals living outside their borders to vote. Those are Zambians. They are entitled and have a right to vote. This has been made possible by the support of this House for all Zambians on this earth to live as full Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili:Abanabandi bapusuka!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, the Constitution-making process should not be a partisan thing and we should not make a Constitution by looking at ourselves, but at posterity because the Constitution is for posterity and must outlive us and be useful to generations to come.

Mr Chairperson, as I said, this may not be effective or perfect, but those who will come after us will find some building blocks upon which to improve this Constitution. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, as my colleague, Hon. Prof. Nkandu Luo, said, a Constitution is a living document. Even the so-called old democracies have continued to improve on their constitutions. We, therefore, have that process available to us. As I mentioned to this House, some of the provisions have merely been packed because we have not ditched them, as some are stating. We have just packed them aside so that we can reflect even better. We should not just copy and paste. We should involve ourselves in an autochthonous and a home-grown Constitution. If we have to borrow ideas from outside, let us modify them to suit our conditions. Therefore, we still have an opportunity to reflect on some of these provisions that we have put aside so that we can give ourselves a better, workable and feasible Constitution.

 Sir, with those few words, I would like, again, to thank everyone for their hard and team work, especially our colleagues, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). We were born from the same mother.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 8(276), 
(a)    on page 104, in lines 32 and 33 by the deletion of the words “who holds a constituency-based-based-seat”;

(b)    on page 106,
(i)    in lines 1 and 2, by  the deletion of the definition of “deputy provincial speaker’; and
(ii)    in line 24 by the deletion of the comma and the words “provincial assembly”;

(c )    on page 108
(i)    in lines 8 and 9 by the deletion of the definition of “local Bill”; and
(ii)    in lines 36 to 38 by the deletion of the definition of “party list”;

(d)     on page 109, in lines 32 and 33 and 33 by the deletion of the definition of “provincial legislation”;

(e)    on page 110
(i)    in lines 1 to 3 by the deletion of the definition of “provincial speaker”; and

(ii)    in lines 16 to 20  by the deletion of the definition of “State office” and the substitution therefor of the following:

““State office” includes the Office of the President, Vice-President, Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Member of Parliament, Minister and provincial Minister;” put and House voted.

Ayes – (111)

Mr C. K. Banda

Mrs. Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chingimbu

Mr Chipungu

Mr Chisala

Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Dr Chituwo

Mr Chungu

Mrs Chungu

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr Lungu

Col. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama

Mr Mwimba H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr P. Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Mr P. Phiri

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Prof. Willombe

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes– (37)

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu

Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Ndalamei

Mr Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr Pande

Ms Sayifwanda

Mr Shakafuswa

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions– (0)

Amendment agreed to. Article amended accordingly.

Clause 8(276), as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

 Clause 8(277)(278)(279)(280)(281)(282)(283)(284) and (285)ordered to stand part of the Bill.

GENERAL AMENDMENT

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the general amendment be amended by the consequential renumbering of the provisions in the new parts VI to XX inclusive as amended by the deletion of the various Articles.

Sir, I want to thank all the hon. Members for their support.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. General Amendment amended accordingly.

General Amendment, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Annex agreed to.

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015

Report Stage today.
REPORT STAGE

The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015

Report adopted.

Third Reading today.
THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA (Amendment) BILL, 2015

Question that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, be now read a third time, putand the House voted.

Ayes: (111)

Mr C. K. Banda

Mrs Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Ching’imbu

Mr Chipungu

Mr Chisala

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chungu

Mrs Chungu

Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr Lungu

Col. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama

Mr Mwimba H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Mr Phiri

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Prof. Willombe

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – (37)

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Dr Chituwo

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu

Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Dr Kalila

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Ndalamei

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr Pande

Ms Sayifwanda

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (0)

Question accordingly agreed to, with more than two-thirds of all the Members voting in the affirmative and the Bill read a third time.

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2015

Question that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, be now read a third time, putand the House voted.

Ayes: (110)

Mr C. K. Banda

Mrs E. M. Banda

Mr N. Banda

Mr I. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Bwalya

Mr Chabala

Col. Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chenda

Mr Chikwanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Ching’imbu

Mr Chipungu

Mr Chisala

Mr Chishimba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chungu

Mrs Chungu
Mr Evans

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Dr Kaingu

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kansembe

Ms Kapata

Brig-Gen. Kapaya

Mr Kapeya

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Dr Kasonde

Mr Katambo

Dr Katema

Col. Kaunda

Mrs Kawandami

Ms Kazunga

Mr Konga

Mr Kosamu

Mr Kufuna

Mr Kunda

Ms Limata

Mr Lingweshi

Mr Lubinda

Dr Lungu

Col. Lungu

Prof. Luo

Mr Mabumba

Mr M. Malama

Mr Mwimba H. Malama

Mr Masumba

Mr Mbewe

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mbulu

Ms Miti

Mr Monde

Mrs Mphande

Mr Mpundu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukanga

Mr Mukata

Ms Mulasikwanda

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mushanga

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mvunga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwali

Mr Mwaliteta

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mr Mwango

Mr Mwenya

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Ms Namugala

Mr Namulambe

Ms Ngimbu

Mr Ngoma

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Njeulu

Dr Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sata

Mr Shamenda

Mr Shuma

Mr Siamunene

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sichula

Mr Sikazwe

Ms Siliya

Mr Simbao

Dr Simbyakula

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Tembo

Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr Zulu

Noes – (35)

Mr Antonio

Mr Belemu

Mr Chitafu

Dr Chituwo

Mr Habeenzu

Mr Hamududu

Mr Hamusonde

Ms Imenda

Mr Kasonso

Mr Katuka

Mr Livune

Mr Lombanya

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mrs Masebo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Milambo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mooya

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulomba

Mr Muntanga

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr L. J. Ngoma

Mr Nkombo

Mr Pande

Ms Sayifwanda

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Mr Sianga

Mr Sing’ombe

Abstention: (0)

Question accordingly agreed to, with not less than two-thirds of all the Members voting in the affirmative and the Bill read a third time.

________

Hon. UPND Membersleft the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 99 − (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – K11,159,597,583). 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this welcome opportunity to present my policy statement on the 2016 Estimates of Expenditure for Head 99 under the Ministry of Finance.

Sir, the Ministry of Finance remains committed to the effective and efficient mobilisation and management of public resources in a transparent and accountable manner in order to foster national development and enhance the quality of life of the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance foresees the need for new financing under the Revised Sixth National Development Plan (RSNDP) mainly to cater for the much-needed infrastructure development, notably in the road, energy, water and sanitation sectors.

Sir, in support of this resolve, the ministry will, in 2016, need to implement strong debt management measures aimed at effectively controlling expenditures under Vote 99 and promoting prudent borrowing with particular attention to the inescapable need of maintaining debt sustainability.

Mr Chairperson, further, in 2016, the Government’s debt management objectives will focus on financing the Budget deficit at minimum risk and cost, maintaining debt sustainability and promoting the development of the Government securities secondary market. In this regard, the Government will continue to revise the debt management strategies to put in place robust debt redemption and refinancing strategy to address challenges that arise in managing the country’s debt portfolio as a result of changing market conditions, both internally and externally.

Sir, it is under this Vote that Constitutional Statutory Expenditure is provided for in the Budget. The expenditure includes the estimated external and domestic debt service for the year, payments in respect of the medium term pay reforms and contingencies such as disasters and calamities.

Mr Chairperson, the Government, through contractual agreements, borrows financial resources from domestic creditors through the issuance of Government paper and from external creditors through loan agreements in order to augment domestic tax and non-tax revenues required to implement the much-needed development programmes and projects, especially in the rural areas of Zambia. It is in this regard that the Government is committed to efficient settlement of the contractual debt obligations under this Vote.

Sir, in financing growth-critical infrastructure programmes required to foster economic development, the Government will focus on accessing external financing with lower interest rates and longer repayment periods while significantly limiting domestic borrowing. This will create the required room for private credit in our market and also an environment for low interest rates in our financial markets. I wish to inform this august House that most notably, the share of non-concessional borrowing is expected to increase in the light of the large infrastructure investment needed to foster economic development across the country. A larger proportion of the non-concessional borrowing will be allocated to economically and commercially viable projects with high economic returns.

Sir, as regards domestic borrowing, the Government will continue using the Government securities market to raise funds at competitive prices in order to finance the Budget deficit.

Mr Chairperson, let me, again, assure this august House that the Government will put emphasis on applying the borrowed funds on sectors that are critical to the growth of the economy in order to build capacity for the country to carry the debt.

Sir, consequently, strengthening debt management and project appraisal will be a key ingredient to the approach in ensuring that borrowing is directed to projects with high returns. In the medium term, debt management will be strengthened through the implementation of debt management reforms.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate Vote 99. Vote 99 is the account that pays all the Government expenditures where the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia charges the revenues of the State to meet such expenditures. The most important item under Vote 99 is debt servicing, both externally and internally. So, if you want to see what is happening in terms of resources moving between development and debt servicing, you find that information under the Vote we are discussing now.

Sir, what is the broad picture that we want to discuss or see as far as public debt servicing is concerned? To answer that question, we cannot avoid going back into history, looking back at the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s. You will recall that there were hardly any developmental projects during this whole period, apart from the few secondary schools, hospitals and roads that were constructed during the first few years of independence under the United National Independence Party (UNIP). As the years progressed after gaining Independence, it was uncommon to see a school, hospital or road being constructed in this country. The little revenue that was coming into the Treasury was going towards servicing national debt.

Sir, by the time we were reaching 2000, the Republic of Zambia had accumulated debt worth over US$7.5 billion. So, in servicing that debt, there was little money left for development. That became a problem. We saw poverty and suffering everywhere in our country. This drew the attention of the world. It was not just Zambia that was going through this situation. Many African countries found themselves in a similar situation. We saw churches, here in Zambia, especially the Catholics, campaigning heavily for debt relief. We also saw non-governmental organisations (NGOs) being established all over the world to campaign for debt relief. Important international artists, like musicians, started campaigning for debt relief because they were sympathising with the African countries, such as Zambia, that were experiencing poverty due to too much money going towards servicing debt at the expense of development.

Mr Chairperson, these campaigns eventually yielded results. Zambia’s debt eventually reduced from US$7.5 billion, as most of it was forgiven, to a balance of only US$1.5 billion. It was not easy to get to that level of debt reduction. It required the concerted efforts of the groups that I talked about. It required convincing international organisations like the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank, who had always said any debt given out must be repaid to them. They had always insisted that there could never be any debt relief. Therefore, convincing them to cancel some of this debt was a hard job.

Mr Chairperson, it was also a hard job for those Zambians who went to negotiate for debt relief on behalf of this country. They had to sit in front of the creditors and ask for debt relief. They, obviously, felt embarrassed and humiliated. It felt like sitting in front of somebody that is superior to you just because you owe them money and, therefore, must beg. So, it was a beggar-giver relationship and this is always humiliating for the beggar. This is what happened.

Mr Chairperson, therefore, after all this, I find it very disturbing that Zambia’s domestic and external debt has been rising very fast in recent years. In the past four years, we have been debating, warning and advising the Government on the Floor of this House about the rate at which Zambia’s debt has been rising, year after year. If we did some fine adjustments, instead of relying on the official figures that we are given by our colleagues, I am convinced that we would find that Zambia’s current external debt is above US$7 billion.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: In coming up with that amount, I am also considering potential judgments against the State, which will be difficult to run away from, for example, the Zambia Telecommunication Limited (ZAMTEL) case. So, I am convinced that we already owe more than US$7 billion. This is distressing because whereas UNIP took twenty-seven years to get to that level of debt, our colleagues in the current Government have only taken four years to get to a level whereby we are struggling financially as a country.

Mr Chairperson, what are the consequences of this situation? Over the years, the Government has been saying our debt situation is at a comfortable level. Our colleagues have even been quoting numbers of the country’s debt to the gross domestic product (GDP) ratio. In simple terms, the amount of revenue realised against the debt incurred. The magical number that they have been talking to us about is 40 per cent. 

However, Mr Chairperson, this is what has happened. Two to three years ago, this ratio was under 40 per cent. At that time, Zambia’s GDP was roughly about US$30 billion. With the depreciation of the kwacha in the recent past, Zambia’s GDP is now roughly about US$18 billion. So, taking that into consideration, where is the debt: GDP ratio now? As we speak, it is about 40 per cent. In other words, we have reached the very number that has been quoted as the threshold.

Mr Chairperson, it goes beyond numbers. In reality, we can see that we have already reached the stage of struggling with debt. Allow me to explain what I mean by this. In the media in recent months, we have been reading stories about the Government finding it difficult to even pay salaries to public servants. The other month we heard that salaries for the University of Zambia (UNZA) employees were delayed by one and half months. The Copperbelt University (CBU) workers and other public servants have also experienced similar situations. What this means is that, with the resources that we have, we are already beginning to struggle to cater for other Government obligations, including salaries for civil servants, once we have paid the monthly debt requirements.

Mr Chairperson, let me give another example. This is the end of 2015. The Government is supposed to have released the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocations to all of us. We have said in this House before that for some of us, the CDF is the most important financial resource that is at our disposal to bring development to our areas. As far as I know, the CDF for this year has not been released to date. What this means is that as we pay the national debt, we are now failing to provide primary schools, water and other basic services to our constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, this is exactly what happened in the 1970s and 1980’s. When you service debt, you fail to deliver basic services to the people. So, the debt problem is now on our hands. I, therefore, find it very shocking that this process of incurring debt does not seem to come to a close. 

Mr Chairperson, there is another consequence of servicing debt that I want to talk about. In the past when we got into this serious debt problem, there was somebody to talk to. There were institutions to talk to and say, “Give us debt relief.” That happened because, at the time, most of debt that we had was with so-called official creditors. Official creditors means government to government, government to international organisations, such as the World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the African Development Bank (ADB). Today, the situation is different. Most of the debt acquired from to private creditors. 

Mr Chairperson, I can assure you that there will never be any debt relief with Eurobonds. You just have to pay. If you do not pay, some of them sell this debt to the so-called vulture funds and these are ruthless. From my experience with the Bank of Zambia, as Deputy Governor, I have many stories to tell about how ruthless vulture funds are. This is where we have gotten ourselves to.

Mr Chairperson, it was about ten years ago when debt relief was given. How do you now go back and say, “Give us debt relief?” It is embarrassing, humiliating, uncalled for and avoidable. The next problem that we will get into is to not count on significant debt relief because most of the entities owed are commercial. 

Mr Chairperson, my final point, given the little time I am remaining with, is the distribution effects of these loans. We have been hearing of billions coming into the country. All of us, especially the young ones, are going to pay back these loans. When I look around, I see youthful people here. They are the ones who will suffer. Like the way we suffered as youths in the 1980s and 1990s. The elderly people borrowed, but when it came to pay, of course, they had already developed as individuals, they had asset bases so the debt was not so much for them. However, for the youths who were starting out in life, it was a burden. 

Mr Chairperson, every province will have to sweat to pay off this debt. The question now is: Who is getting the benefit out of this debt? When you listen to people from Lusaka, the Copperbelt and some other places, hundreds of millions have gone there. If we take one extreme example, our friends here from the North-Western Province will have to pay the debt, especially that the mines are domiciled there. However, tell me, out of these billions that are being talked about, can anyone seriously point at any major project taking place in the North-Western Province. It is very questionable.

Mr Chairperson, eI have friends all over the North-Western Province and other parts of the country who come to us privately and tell us that there is no equitable distribution of this money from this debt. Since they have to emulate those who come from provinces where there is a lot of infrastructure devlopment, when they are in a public place like this one, everyone says, “Yes, there is development in my province.”

Mr Mwamba: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: However, privately they deny or pretend to talk about things that are not real. Let us take care of this issue of equitable distribution of resources otherwise there will be strife in our country.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Business was suspended for 0830 hours until 0840 hours.

   [THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTES in the
Chair]

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor of the House. I will be very brief in my presentation. Most of the key issues have been covered by Hon. Dr Musokotwane. It will be disrespectful of me to repeat what my mentor has already said. However, I want to pick another angle. 

Mr Chairperson, what we are discussing, at the moment, in this particular Vote is related to what has just past. There is a fundamental flaw in our governance system. I am afraid that even the Constitution that we have just past does not address the governance lapses that eventually drive this country into debt accumulation. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the issues is excessive Presidential powers and I am not talking about an individual. You could see this during the One Party State. At a rally, the President would instigate huge expenditures and as he moved around, he was a donor of development, yet development must come through a systematic and gradual manner. People must bring proposals to Parliament. We approve the proposals, they become law, the Government implements and the following year, you suggest more programmes. 

Mr Chairperson, due to the weakness in our Constitution, the Presidency continues to lumber this country with unplanned expenditure and we have to pay for it. I think the option for the hon. Minister of Finance is to resign because the hon. Minister of Finance is not in charge of the Government. The former Minister of Finance, Hon. Magande, for example, was praised for having worked well because there was a close relationship with the President. When they differed during the day they reconciled in the evening,. There is a tug-of-war and until we institutionalise good governance, it becomes difficult to deal with some of these excesses. One of the key leakages here is poor performance. Departments are busy asking for more money as if money is a problem, yet the problem is implementation deficit. We can do more with less, but the Government is doing less with more. That is a general problem. I can tell you that from the top to the grassroots, the governance system has really become weak. 

Mr Chairperson, I can give you an example of a borehole. At one time in our Committee, we discovered how these officials and contractors collude. When a tender for the drilling of a borehole is released, they will all say no one should bid below a certain threshold and they set a new price for borehole drilling in the country. I can tell you that it is about K40,000  to drill a borehole today, yet if you want to drill a borehole as an individual, you can do it for below K30,000. The pricing is so high, yet we do little things. The same situation exists in the road sector. The cost per kilometre of road development in our country is the highest in the region. 

Mr Chairperson, this tendency of colluding has gone even to our councils. I was working on a small road in my constituency using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I told the council to dump some gravel on the road after its formation. I was shocked by the so-called procurement unit in the councils that it costs K250,000 to dump gravel on a one kilometre stretch of road. So, I told the council to just hire tractors to bring gravel. They have done it using tractors. They wanted to use tippers so that they could connive. K250,000 per kilometre to dump gravel. Gravel which you dig, put in a truck and you charge k250,000? I had to tell them that I am not accepting such costs. You just advertise for tractors and ox-carts.

Mr Chairperson, people with tractors bade for that work and they have done it at a cheaper cost of within K50,000. 5 km of dumping gravel have been worked on. Until we crack the whip on performance and stop these leakages, we will continue to demand more money to do little works. That is what causes this debt. You must know that this debt does not just drop on us. It is caused by some sequence that develops over time.

Another leakage point, Sir, is the creation of new districts. From the outset, we warned the Government to stop the system of delineating districts. We all want districts, but their creation must be done gradually and systematically because the resources are limited. We took in too much in a short time. Everyone wanted good roads. All Presidents have wanted good roads, but resources have been limited. So, what has happened, at the moment, is constipation. You cannot eat all the food at the same time. It has to be eaten gradually. Debt is simply constipation and this is where we are now.

Mr Chairperson, during the Constitution debate, we did not deal with the fundamental issues of governance and checks and balances. I debated the issue of separation of powers in order that the President can also be taken to task. For example, in countries like South Africa, the President attends Parliament and people take him to task. In Zambia, the President is a king who only comes inside the House surrounded by policemen and women. For what?

Mr Chairperson, I attended sittings of the South African Parliament. The President walks without accompaniment. Why bring policemen and women to be all around you when you are just amongst your colleagues? It is these excesses that cost the country money. When you see that many people, it is a cost, but you think that our debt comes from one item. It is a summation or an accumulation of many excesses which, when put together, constitute expenditure and, in turn, debt. 

Hon. Government Memberinterjected.

Mr Hamududu: Well, it is alright if you pay for yourself. Just do not use Government revenue to pay for your excesses. We, the leaders, must begin to say no to some of these things. 

Sir, even this so-called draft that is being celebrated does not have a provision to counter debt accumulation. The President’s coming to Parliament is a huge expenditure, yet he must come here and, sometimes, answer our questions on why he is doing certain things. It is done in other democracies. However, for us, we want to shield the President. We make every man who gets into that position a king or a demi-god. It is the weakness in our system and we have not addressed it. I, therefore, see a country that exists like a roller coaster. When we have a good President, things are well until someone different comes in. We must not solely depend on the goodness of one person.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Hamududu: Listen! When we have a good President, we will have some prosperity until another one comes and drops the curve and, then, we start all over again. Good governance must be imbedded in the system.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Chairperson: Order!

No points of order in this segment.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, my point is that people do not connect these things to each other. They are interrelated. You cannot discuss debt in isolation. It comes in a particular way. If the systems are wrong, they will eventually show in many ways. 

Hon. UNPD Membersrose.

Mr Hamududu: Where do you want to go?

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I want to conclude ...

Hon. Government MemberInterjected.

Mr Hamududu: Oh my goodness. 
Mr Chairperson, even the threshold to come into this House must be looked at so that we can all speak at the same level. I am telling you.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Hamududu: If people cannot understand the connection between debt and what I am saying, but think it is just a figure, then, I rest my case. However, those who are reasonable have gotten my point.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member:Awe, tapali efyo ulelanda.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Muntanga, are you going to debate?

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I am sorry. I did not hear you call upon me.

Sir, there is no way that anyone can object the approval of Vote 99. This is the vote that pays what we owe. It is a fact that we owe. I remember debating on the Floor of the House and warning that Zambia could go back into a debt trap. Now, we are talking about our debt increasing to US$7 billion. I think that is something we should be concerned about. 

Sir, as we approve this Vote, I would like to say to the hon. Minister that we should not let our creditors behave like some kind of recovery managers and push us to take particular measures. It is time that we worked out our own austerity measures without being pushed. We should take serious measures to reduce our expenditure. I know that His Excellency the President made a statement asking for reduction on expenditure through measures that should see that we spend less. With the kind of support that the hon. Minister is getting, he has to make serious decisions. We have to save Zambia from incurring more serious debt. 

Everyone wants development, but we cannot develop in five years and have everyone get all the roads and everything that they need. We have to slow down. If you ask us what we need, we will tell you. However, when we look at the debt levels, we get worried. While we support the Government, we urge it to put in place austerity measures. 

Mr Chairperson, I was in Tanzania and wondered what that country’s President’s actions were all about. He is making various decisions. For example, Tanzania commemorated its independence on 9th December, 2015. He decided that there would be no independence celebrations because they could not celebrate when they were in trouble. The K4 billion shillings which was budgeted for independence celebrations is being used to widen a very busy road between Dar-e-Salaam and Bagamoyo, which goes on to Arusha. 

Mr Chairperson, for the fun fare that happens at the Official Opening at Parliament, a total amount of 279 million shillings was budgeted. However, he only allowed them to use 25 million shillings and ordered the remainder of the money to be used for the purchase of beds and linen for a hospital that was newly built by the President he had just succeeded. With that decision, that hospital was equipped. People who were sleeping on the Floor slept on beds the following week.

Mr Chairperson, we may not replicate the happenings in Tanzania because we have our own issues just like they have their own. For example, there are complaints that the President makes lone decisions. They have three Presidents that are alive and belong to the same party, the Chama Cha Mapinduzi (CCM) and they believe he is not consulting the party. If the hon. Minister can get support from his party, it is not too late for certain measures to be put in place so that we do not continue to borrow. 

Mr Chairperson, we get uncomfortable when we hear, for example, that hon. Ministers will be given satellite phones. I do not know whether it is true or not because I have no facts. If it is true, please, consider the cost. What happened in Tanzania was that there was money donated towards independence celebrations. The President asked for those donations and diverted them to development. The hon. Minister can do the same. We are worried about the debt build up.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Mvunga): Mr Chairperson, I will address the issue of debt contraction and what impact it has on the country. I accept, recognise and appreciate the remarks made by the various contributors, which make a lot of sense, in terms of exercising prudence when contracting debt.

Sir, I think that debt in itself is not a bad thing. Debt becomes a bad thing when it is unplanned. If you do not perform feasibilities to understand whether that debt will translate into production and development in the country, debt becomes a bad thing. There was a period in this country when we could not invest in roads, schools and hospitals because we had no money. The country has great potential which, unfortunately, we have talked about over and over, over the years. I am tired of talking about potential. It is time to start operationalising that potential. How can we operationalise the potential of the country? 

Mr Chairperson, we have a lot of resources which are untapped and we are not benefiting the country by not exploiting these resources. This is the reason this Government took a brave decision to contract debt primarily to underpin future economic development of the country. In the absence of contracting debt, the country will be stagnant economically. We can talk about a low Budget deficit as an indicator of a good economy. However, it is pointless to keep a country stagnant when it has the potential to grow. The view of the Government is that the debt being contracted is directed towards capital expenditure as opposed to consumption expenditure. In the previous regimes, the problem was that debt was being used for consumption. In this Government, we are using the debt for capital expenditure to ensure that we underpin the future development of the country. It is critical that you understand that, hon. Members. 

Other than spending the debt on capital expenditure in terms of roads, we also need to ensure that we develop human capital. So, when we talk about health and education, o sustain the future generation, we need to ensure that human capital is fully equipped to be economically empowered people in order to move the country forward. That is why some of this debt is being expended on constructing schools and hospitals. I accept that debt can be a trap if not well-managed, but I want to assure the nation that the Ministry of Finance and the newly-created Ministry of Development Planning, through concerted efforts, are ensuring that we contract debt that is meaningful and that is going to result in economic development of the country. 

Mr Chairperson, these are my few comments on this matter.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you, again, for giving me this opportunity to debate. I also thank my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister for making my task a lot easier. 

Sir, I will deal with the question of debt by putting it in a historic context. I want to plead with Hon. Dr Musokotwane that as a former hon. Minister of Finance, he should not get data from the press. It is partly our fault that he is getting the information from the press. We have not reached out to former hon. Ministers of Finance like him to bring them up to date with where we are with regard to our debt situation. At the moment, our internal debt in kwacha is sitting around K25 billion and the external debt, as at now, is US$6.3 billion. The trouble arises in terms of debt servicing when there are these downward slippages in the kwacha parity because we have to marshal more kwacha than we planned for in order to service external debt. However, the external debt servicing annualised is not yet a matter of worry I assure you, Hon. Dr Musokotwane. 

Mr Chairperson, in respect of the current fiscal year, that is, fiscal year 2015, I do not think we will exceed US$200 million in external debt servicing. Next year, we may, perhaps, get around US$250 million. The way to measure our debt sustainability or our capacity to service the external debt is not only to relate it to certain components, but also the rate of overall debt to the percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP). I think the best measure of annual debt servicing is found by asking: What percentage is it of our export earnings? In terms of this year’s reduced export earnings, our external debt servicing will only be something like 5 and a half per cent to 6 per cent of the export earnings. So, we are still within reasonable limits. The other explanation, which is not aimed at you, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, but at the general public is that debt is a reducing factor. Each time we pay, it reduces. If we pay US$200 million, our debt also reduces by that amount. So, it is not like when we have US$6.3 billion debt, it will remain that way. Of course, in due course, we shall add to this US$6.3 billion. Owing to the movements in the exchange rate, we are almost at the ceiling assigned to us by Parliament. So, getting more debt will involve us coming back to Parliament to get a lift in the ceiling. 

Sir, hon. Members have heard that we have signed for some more loans. However, we have not reached the loan-agreement stage. Previously, during your tenure, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, the hon. Minister of Finance just borrowed in exercise of the power conferred on him by Cap. 366, Loans Authorisation Guarantees Act. However, we have crafted a new procedure for dealing with loan agreements. We now send a memorandum to the Cabinet, which has to approve all the borrowing. We, at the Ministry of Finance, arrived at this procedure with the late President, Mr Michael Sata, because we felt that it was very unfair for Cabinet hon. Ministers to explain about the country’s debt situation when they were furnished with all the pertinent details of the debt. I just think that it is a huge responsibility for the country. We commit the country and posterity to this debt and it is only fair and reasonable that we get the endorsement of the Cabinet over these loans. So, some of the loans you have heard we have signed for have not yet come to the loan-agreement stage. That will only be done with the due approval of the Cabinet. 

Sir, we also need look at the debt structure. The external debt comprises of some long-term borrowing. Some of it is contracted from multilateral institutions. Some of these loans have a repayment period of say, forty years, plus ten a year grace period. The loans contracted in this way from multilateral donor agencies are a small proportion. The more commercial debt acquired has become a much greater significant portion of the external debt profile. Let me just repeat that the public should know that the loans are paid in phases and that each year we pay, the debt we have contracted reduces. 

Sir, as for the use of the loans, as my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister, explained, these loans are borrowed for development projects. There are complaints by some of the hon. Members and, indeed, citizens, about the coverage of these loans. 

There is no province that is not benefitting from Government development programmes. As we speak, if you go to Chavuma, in the North-Western Province, you will find township roads being worked on. The programme for township roads in Kasempa and Zambezi is very advanced. The same applies to the other areas of Zambia. 

Sir, I think that development spreads to all corners of Zambia. Of course, it is a cardinal principal that we distribute the resources equitably. The development agenda of the Patriotic Front (PF) is to cover the whole country. Some provinces like the Southern Province are actually getting more than the Northern and Luapula provinces. The Southern Province has a lion’s share of the Republic’s resources. 

Hon. Muntanga, do not worry. The Kalomo township roads will be covered, not necessarily next year, because our fiscal position, currently, is not very good. Hon. Dr Musokotwane was right when he hinted that we are even struggling to meet the payroll on time. Previously, we could have met the payroll ready by the 16th or 17th of each month but, now, we are getting to the 22nd or 23rd of the month. This is the situation that we are faced with. 

Sir, the external situation is not the most conducive, and so, we have these externally induced shocks in our economy which are complicating things. However, we should, individually and collectively, resolve to help our country to get out of the current difficulties by minimising the demands. There are so many demands that we get every day from Government institutions, ministries and spending agencies to support expenditure which is not budgeted for. 

Mr Chairperson, going into 2016, we mean business. We want to limit the fiscal deficit to 3.8 per cent of the GDP. We have reinforced our efforts to try to control excessive expenditures or expenditures that are not budgeted for by His Excellency the President. At that press conference, he was at his best and he came out very clearly. This helps me to bargain with my fellow colleagues, who are also under pressure to come to the Treasury to seek resources. 

Therefore, contrary to the anxieties of Hon. Hamududu, His Excellency the President and the hon. Minister of Finance work very closely together. Perhaps, our relationship is more intimate than that which obtained between my predecessors and the then presidents. We have a cordial, well- structured, well-streamlined relationship and there is no way His Excellency the President can issue such directives without consultation. As I said, we bring these matters before the Cabinet. 

So, Hon. Hamududu, have no anxieties because we can improve on the areas of governance. For instance, we hoped that the Planning and Budgeting Bill, which is almost your brainchild, would come in this session, but we will work hard to ensure that it comes to Parliament in the next sitting of Parliament. So, just be assured that there is no disharmony between not only myself as Minister of Finance and His Excellency the President, but between His Excellency the President and all his hon. Ministers. Our working relationship is absolutely harmonious and our President has a very humble and pleasant approach, not only to his hon. Ministers, but even to the most ordinary of citizens. That is just his nature. This is why we are even talking about the 50 perc ent plus 1. Our President will make 75 per cent plus 1.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: We will campaign hard, but we will be helped by his disposition which is very conducive. He is a likeable person and his humility is not feigned, but genuine. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Our President does not do anything to try to adjust his disposition as a political gimmick. This is just the nature of the man. Therefore, we have a good asset in the Patriotic Front (PF) and a good product to market. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: As you know, in marketing, the brand one is marketing matters a lot. So, as the PF, our task is very simple. We do not know about you, our colleagues. 

Laughter 

Mr Chikwanda: Our product is very saleable.

 Sir, let me not drift. We have been here too long. I want to thank my colleagues who debated. Hon. Hamududu’s contribution was equally good except that, sometimes, he does not have a very long fuse. 

Laughter 

Mr Chikwanda: Minus that aspect, whatever he said was profound and we will always put his concerns into account. Hon. Dr Musokotwane, you now have the data about the economy from your ministry and not from the press. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 99/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 99/04 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure–Contingency– K50,000,000).

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3089, Activity 001 – Contingency – K50,000,000. Why is the contingency constant, yet we have just approved the supplementary budget? 

The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Mvunga): Mr Chairperson, this provision is for any contingencies that may arise from the 2016 Budget. Therefore, it is not a precise figure, but just a contingency we have put it in the budget to cater for unforeseen expenditures that may arise. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 99/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 99/05 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Other – K2,046,968,660).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9000, Activity 700 – Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility– K759,700,000. Why is there an allocation for next year and not an allocation for this year?

Mr Mvunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 9000, Activity 700 – Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility– K759,700,000, is a provision for the reimbursement of funds borrowed from the Poverty Reduction Growth Fund.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3156, Activity 002 – Commercial Bank Interest – K700,000,000. Why is there no allocation for the 2016 fiscal year while commercial debt is being incurred annually? 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Chairperson, under Programme 3156, Activity 002 – Commercial Bank Interest – K700,000,000, we are not providing for any commercial debt in 2016. We will only look at Government securities.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena):Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3156, Activity 003 – Motor Vehicles Finance Lease – K51,980,486. There is no allocation for 2016. So, am I to get comfort that this lease has been liquidated?

Mr Mvunga: Precisely, Sir.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 99/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Estimates of Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) for the Year 1st January, 2016 to 31st December, 2016 were reported to the House as having passed through the Committee with amendments.

Report adopted and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of supply.

__________

BILLS

FIRST READING 

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2015

The following Bill was read for the first time:

The Appropriation Bill, 2015

Second Reading, now.

SECOND READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2015

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Bill before this House is the culmination of the assignments that we started in the Committee of Supply on the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure that started with the presentation of the 2016 Budget on Friday, 9th October, 2015.

Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to express my profound gratitude to you, the hon. Deputy Speaker and the Chairperson of Committees for you invaluable guidance in the conduct of Business in the House. Let me also recognise the role played by the Leader of Government Business for ensuring that the House was adequately organised.

Mr Speaker, I am also thankful to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her diligent staff for the notable support rendered throughout the debate of the Motion.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to thank the hon. Members for all their valuable contributions and suggestions. Accordingly, I wish to report that the contributions and suggestions from the hon. Members of Parliament have been noted. As the Government, we will explore how best to incorporate those remarkable ideas in future Budgets.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to take this opportunity to thank our co-operating partners, whose continued support, through the Budgets, is a clear indication of the faith that our co-operating partners have in our Government’s development agenda. As this House concludes business today, in approving the 2016 Budget, let me point out that the most important assignment ahead of us is the execution of the Budget so that the theme of my Budget Address can be realised.

Sir, as hon. Members are aware, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) undertook a staff visit from 11th to 20th November, 2015, at the invitation of the Zambian Government. The main objective was to review recent economic developments and share views on appropriate policy measures to address the current macro-economic challenges. At the end of the visit, there was unanimity on the economic challenges the country is faced with and the remedial measures required, going forward. Particularly, the need for fiscal consolidation was stressed to sustain macro-economic stability, growth and poverty reduction. The Government and the IMF further agreed to continue engaging on these matters. To this end, the IMF will be in the country early next year for the mandatory Article 4 consultations. This is the arrangement whereby the IMF and the member Governments consult each.

Mr Speaker, I am exceedingly glad to mention that this Government, through His Excellency the President’s Press Conference of 26th November, 2015, is already taking measures to address the current macro economic and fiscal challenges. His Excellency the President also set a firm tone for the execution of the 2016 Budget. The bold decisions taken to rationalise expenditures such as the deferment of the establishment of the national airline, suspension of the signing of new contracts for capital projects, including roads, for which there are no budgetary allocations and initiatives to review electricity tariffs and fuel pump prices are a clear demonstration of the statesmanship in His Excellency the President.

Mr Speaker, this is the leadership we need, leadership that is able to rise above petty politics and to institute measures that will restore fiscal sustainability and macroeconomic stability to safeguard the future of our country. This is, indeed, why this country deserves the leadership of our President. We need a constructive, bold and courageous leadership. 

Sir, the austerity measures mentioned by His Excellency the President provide the much-need impetus for a robust fiscal policy reform that seeks to contain fiscal deficits within sustainable levels in the process and providing a solid basis for future sustainable growth. I wish to inform this House that all necessary administrative measures are already being put in place to ensure that directives from His Excellency the President are adhered to by all line ministries and other Government agencies. For those requiring introduction of Statutory Instruments (SIs), relevant Government departments have already been tasked to ensure that this is done without delay. 

Sir, to ensure that the 2016 Budget approved by this august House is financed adequately, my ministry will ensure that revenue collection is enhanced. Priority will be on enhancing tax compliance, which His Excellency the President adequately addressed during his press conference. This is particularly important in safeguarding the interests of the Zambian people so that implementation of developmental programmes and projects and the delivery of essential public services are not unduly hampered by the lack of resources. 

Sir, with regard to the reductions observed in the 2016 Budget allocations to some votes, which some of the hon. Members referred to during their deliberations on this Motion, I wish to state that this is a manifestation of our resolve to consolidate the fiscal position. The House may recall from my 2016 Budget Address that allocations for non-core currency expenditures were reduced by more than 50 per cent. This was strategically done to ensure that more resources are directed towards programmes and activities that have a significant positive impact on the welfare of our people. In this vein, most programmes in the health, education and agriculture sectors were allocated substantial amounts. 

Mr Speaker, as I thank the hon. Members for supporting the 2016 Budget, may I also take this opportunity to reiterate the need for their continued support beyond the approval of  the Budget. This is because beyond Budget approval lies a mammoth task of ensuring that all the Budget objectives are translated into improved standards of our people. This can only be achieved if all stakeholders, especially hon. Members of Parliament, get interested in the implementation of the Budget by monitoring programmes that will take place in their respective constituencies and provide the necessary checks and balances. The compelling need for hon. Members of Parliament to take an interest and play an active role in project implementation was firmly anchored by one of our colleagues, the hon. Member for Chama North.

Mr Speaker, recent developments in the energy sector have also brought to light new challenges. Moving forward, the Treasury will work closely with the ministry responsible for energy to explore the various avenues through which the Government can facilitate and identify the short and long-term measures to curb the current power deficits. This is another area where all stakeholders should participate regardless of our partisan interests. Development …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, development of alternative sources of energy beyond hydro- power will be accelerated by the Government’s determined resolve to streamline the regulatory and pertinent policy regimes. 

Sir, lastly, I wish to once more, thank my honourable colleagues for their contributions in debating the Supply Motion which I laid before the House on Friday, 9th October, 2015 and for their invaluable support. I am also grateful to the Committee of Supply for bringing out a number of issues, which we have taken note of. This Government will consider a number of these issues during the implementation of this Budget and the formulation of subsequent Budgets. Resolute resolve and good will by all of us in the leadership and, indeed, in our people at large will stand as in good stead to overcome our current setbacks and challenges. The difficulty we face may be intractable but can never be insurmountable or beyond our collective capacities and abilities. 

The development of our country requires all of us to be agents of development. I am persuaded, beyond doubt, that we will work together and rise to the challenges of our inescapable duty obligation and responsibility and leave a legacy to prosetrity, which is premised on building with flourished structural integrity, thus, is our responsibility to prosperity.

Mr Speaker, I thank you and wish and all hon. Members of this august House sincere complements of the season and deep reflection on our great and beloved country and its glorious people.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I want to render my unfettered gratitude to all hon. Members for the unanimous support of the Motion.

 I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time. 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee Stage today.

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HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE APROPRIATION BILL, 2015

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Tenth, Eleventh, Twelfth, Thirteenth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth, Eighteenth, Nineteenth, Twentieth, Twenty-first, Twenty-second and Twenty-third schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Appropriation Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment.

THIRD READING

The Appropriation Bill, 2013 was read the third time and passed.

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MOTION

ADJOURNEMNT SINE DIE

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

________

The House adjourned accordingly at 0943 hours on Friday, 11th December, 2015, sine die.

 

Publication Date: 
Thursday, December 10, 2015